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Print E-mail del.icio.us 166 comment(s) - last by sinful.. on Jul 11 at 7:37 PM

FISA Amendments Act heads to the White House

The United States Senate passed bitterly contested surveillance law updates Wednesday, sending the FISA Amendments Act on its way to the White House where it is expected to become law.

The bill, passed 69-28, redraws important aspects of the United States’ aging surveillance law; its revisions will grant the government increased leeway in some areas and curtail its power in others. Its most controversial provision would also grant telcos like AT&T retroactive immunity from the throng of lawsuits they face, all of which complain about their role in integrating a secret, government-sanctioned wiretap into the country’s communications infrastructure.

After an identical version of the FISA amendments act passed the House of Representatives late last month, the bill’s opponents – spearheaded by the Electronic Frontier Foundation and the American Civil Liberties Union – launched a spirited, last-ditch offensive to see its telecom immunity provisions removed. Those efforts, the most notable of which included a revision that would have increased the difficulty of immunity’s requirements, ultimately failed due to a quick Senate rejection.

Further complicating matters was an edict from President Bush, who promised to veto any FISA legislation that failed to include an immunity provision.

There are currently about 40 lawsuits against American telecommunications companies concerning its wiretap program, all bundled together and sitting before a single U.S. District court. They will likely be dismissed if the bill’s criteria – which its opponent consider weak, and both sides predict will have little problems reaching – is met.

“This bill will help our intelligence professionals learn who the terrorists are talking to, what they're saying and what they're planning,” said President Bush, speaking in a brief appearance at the White House’s Rose Garden.

“The president broke the law,” stated democratic Sen. Russell Feingold, one of the bill’s opponents.

Its supporters carry a different tune, however. “This is the balance we need to protect our civil liberties without handcuffing our terror-fighters,” said republican Sen. Christopher Bond.

A number of political commentators noted democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama’s party-line-breaking vote in support of the bill, a move that he justified as unfortunate but necessary.

“After months of negotiation, the House today passed a compromise that, while far from perfect, is a marked improvement over last year's Protect America Act,” he noted, referring to a stopgap measure that expired last February.

“Given the legitimate threats we face, providing effective intelligence collection tools with appropriate safeguards is too important to delay. So I support the compromise, but do so with a firm pledge that as President, I will carefully monitor the program, review the report by the Inspectors General, and work with the Congress to take any additional steps I deem necessary.”

Both the EFF and ACLU vowed to continue their fight in court, shifting their focus to challenge the immunity provision’s constitutionality.

“It is an immeasurable tragedy that just after its return from the Fourth of July holiday, the Senate has chosen to pass a bill that betrays the spirit of 1776 by radically expanding the president's spying powers and granting immunity to the companies that colluded in his illegal surveillance program,” said EFF senior staff attorney Kevin Bankston.

“This so-called compromise bill represents a shameful capitulation to the overreaching demands of an imperial president. As Senator Leahy put it in yesterday's debate, the retroactive immunity provision of the bill upends the scales of justice and makes Congress and the courts handmaidens to the White House's cover-up of its illegal surveillance program.”

“This legislation will give the government unfettered and unchecked access to innocent Americans’ international communications without a warrant,” said ACLU executive director Anthony D. Romero. “This is not only unconstitutional, but absolutely un-American.”

Both groups intend to challenge the bill, in the words of the ACLU, “as soon as President Bush signs it into law.”

The bill’s other provisions passed largely uncontested, included provisions that would prohibit government invocation of war powers in order to supersede surveillance rules, and allow the government to secretly eavesdrop for up to a week without a warrant, provided a warrant is obtained within a week.



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About the photo....
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/10/2008 10:57:49 AM , Rating: 2
So is that the new "SMART" phone?




RE: About the photo....
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 12:52:46 PM , Rating: 2
Haha. Get Smart was hilarious.


RE: About the photo....
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/10/2008 12:56:23 PM , Rating: 2
I loved the TV series... Have not watch the movie yet. Any good?


Democrat-controlled House & Senate
By hellokeith on 7/10/2008 9:15:30 PM , Rating: 3
I thought the Democrats were supposed to side with the "people"? Democrats control both the House and the Senate. How come a Democrat-lead and Democrat-controlled Congress is allowing amnesty for telco companies???




RE: Democrat-controlled House & Senate
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/11/2008 10:17:52 AM , Rating: 2
I thought the Democrats were supposed to side with the "people"?

Who ever told you that mis-guided statement? Democrats are for control everything... Tell you were to work, were to go to school, how long you should work, what pens to use, what you should eat, where you show eat....They are the push for socialism which is push for communism. Even Obama has been on stage tell a crowd of people, your kids should not watch more then 1 year of TV a day, should be in bed by 8 pm... To which I say, Obama if you want a try an run a government, fine through your hat in, but stay out of my home.
Republicans are to push for less government all round - less government equals more freedom of choice. Having freedom of Choice in my book is more for the people then taking them away.

Now do we need the government to say what is good and what is bad? Sometimes, it keeps some businesses from selling magic tonics (popular in the 1800's) and things down that line. However, today the government has way to much influence in our day to day life. Also, the more influence they have the more expensive it is to run the government therefore the higher the taxes will be....


By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/11/2008 5:06:49 PM , Rating: 1
hmmmm....must have been sleeping when I wrote this...sorry for the typos... where and were big problem with me...
show should have be should...opps and 1 year of TV should have been 1 hour.
When I'm tired, my minor issue with dyslexia seems to kick into overdrive and I miss the little things like typing in the wrong word from what I was thinking.... My bad. Of course I like to drop the 'ed 'ing or 'm off of some words for some reason...Pisses me off.


Magic Word
By Basekid on 7/10/2008 7:18:09 PM , Rating: 2
Ah the magical word of "terrorism" is used again to pass a bill. Well in that case they are in their full right aren't they.....




RE: Magic Word
By snownpaint on 7/11/2008 11:00:46 AM , Rating: 3
If you can't take it from them, make them give it to you..


US is too socialist
By croc on 7/10/2008 8:30:48 PM , Rating: 2
The US should just do away with any and all taxes, let the market forces prevail. Pure capitalism will cure all evils of the socialist empire that the US has become.




be careful what you wish for...
By zaxxon on 7/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 7:34:49 AM , Rating: 1
You cannot honestly accuse the current administration of being the first to do something amoral by our US democracy standards. But if you really think this bill is to spy on your phone call w/ your gf, you're gravely mistaken.

However, whether you are for or against the following items, they too, could be considered a breach onto personal freedoms in one way or another:

Slavery
Federal Taxation
Welfare (redistribution of wealth)
Property Taxation
Social Security
Illegal Immigration Reform

Need I go on? American is, and in my view, always has been a great country. There are more opportunities here, than anywhere else, to follow your dreams and to succeed by working hard. But lets not view the last 200 years as a picturebook on how to do everything right. The government, like us civilians, sometimes have to learn by making mistakes too.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By DigitalFreak on 7/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By TheDrD on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By zaxxon on 7/10/2008 10:35:45 AM , Rating: 2
checks
balances
separation of powers

that's what it's about


By Gravemind123 on 7/10/2008 5:34:25 PM , Rating: 1
Just because we've done immoral things for the past 200 years doesn't make doing more immoral things now the right thing to do. Sure the past 200 years weren't a picture book, but why take away freedoms when you don't need too. We gave rights to more people(not just limiting them to white males), but now the trend seems to be to take away rights from everyone, which is not a proper direction for a democracy.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 8:08:43 AM , Rating: 3
You assume we all oppose this. I for one want the government to be able to taps someones phone when they deem it necessary and the judges are asleep. Do we want the answer to the question of "Why didn't the government catch the guys planning this?" to be "Well we couldn't get a warrant because it was 2am when they were speaking and all the judges were banging their mistresses."? I sure as hell don't.

And from it sounding like you're in the UK, you've got no room to talk. Your government is so appeasing that now you're going to put booties on freakin bomb sniffing dogs if they go into a Muslim home who would be otherwise offended.


By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 8:11:12 AM , Rating: 2
Not to mention how many video camera's they have throughout the cities that are recording regular civilians. UK big brother is always watching you....literally.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By keegssj on 7/10/2008 8:37:59 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Well we couldn't get a warrant because it was 2am when they were speaking and all the judges were banging their mistresses.

The old FISA court rules covered this issue. Perform the action and go back and get the warrant later.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 8:59:55 AM , Rating: 2
Well I also don't think the telecoms should be liable to be sued simply for complying with government orders and requests.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By CountZero on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By Adonlude on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By Kenenniah on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By stilltrying on 7/10/2008 10:42:26 AM , Rating: 3
Complying with government requests. So what if they didnt? It was just a request not a law. Verizon could have easily said SHOW ME THE FISA WARRANT but didnt. Did everyone forget that qwest didnt not comply and were they tried by the executive branch in the court of law. They did not have to comply as is pointed out by qwest. But Verizon and AT&T execs I am sure love big brother as politics and huge buisness go hand in hand vis a vis fascism.
A small local cable company is about to provide broadband in my area and I cant wait to dump Verizon permanently.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By Grast on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By sinful on 7/11/2008 7:31:46 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Well I also don't think the telecoms should be liable to be sued simply for complying with government orders and requests.


The issue is that the requests were illegal. Any corporation with a legal team is going to *know* they were illegal, as well.
Additionally, some companies did NOT comply with the illegal requests (but were later 'punished' by losing out on government contracts, which were promptly awarded to those that didn't put up a fight).

To put it another way:
Imagine if the government called up your neighbor and said "Hey, burn FITCamaro's house down", but he said "No, that's illegal". Then, he's mysteriously hit with an IRS audit.

And then let's say the government calls up your other neighbor, and asks him to burn you house down. That neighbor then proceeds to burn your house down. Should he be liable? The precendent here seems to say "No".
Now imagine that after doing that, he gets a sweet new car for his "compliance".

Does that sound right to you?
IMHO it sets a dangerous precedent. Next time, if the government calls up your neighbor that got with a tax audit, do you think he'll comply?

It's the same concept with the Telecoms.

Laws were created for a reason. Why should they be above the law?


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By drzoo2 on 7/10/2008 9:06:43 AM , Rating: 5
I'm happy your willing to give a way my liberty so you can feel safe. The FISA law already provisions the ability to get the tap then the warrent. This way there is still oversight.

z

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
-Benjamin Franklin


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By aebiv on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By Kenenniah on 7/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 10:41:10 AM , Rating: 1
Not sure why you're directing that at me. I support the bill, and do not feel my rights are being infringed upon.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 10:48:27 AM , Rating: 2
And just to clarify myself - I support the FISA bill, not the handgun ban.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By HeavyB on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 2:45:52 PM , Rating: 2
Sure. I've got nothing to hide.


By Kenenniah on 7/10/2008 11:58:02 AM , Rating: 2
Wasn't directing it at you, just hit the wrong reply link :P


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/2008 11:30:35 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
What liberty are we giving up? Are we no longer able to talk on the phone because of this? Does this curtail our ability to speak our views in any way shape or form? Please tell me how this is taking away any liberties whatsoever.


You should really learn the Bill of Rights better. The Fourth Amendment specifically guarantees:

quote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


We have the right against unreasonable searches- and wiretapping a phone is searching someone's effects. When you do this without a warrant, you have just violated the Fourth Amendment.

No, we didn't lose the right to use the phone, and no, we didn't lose the right to speak our views. We lost a substantial part of the right to be safe from someone warrantlessly searching our effects. This only makes way for the Fourth Amendment to be further weakened.

Why should we be concerned about this? Passing laws like this has typically been in the domain of authoritarian regimes, and they are typically used to support other actions, such as guaranteeing that rule is not subverted. Why is it unacceptable for Yahoo to turn over names of bloggers to the Chinese government, but it is ok for phone companies to warrantly wiretap our phones for the United States? So basically, what anyone is saying by accepting this law is that they are willing to live under an authoritarian government so long as we believe that this measure will prevent terrorism.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 12:17:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
against unreasonable searches


It's not unreasonable. Amendment not violated.

They are not just wiretapping people at random. They have specific targets who have given them a reason to wiretap their phone. Don't want to get wiretapped? Don't give them a reason.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/2008 12:39:06 PM , Rating: 2
If it were reasonable, and they have probable cause, they can get a warrant. That's the whole point of the fourth Amendment.

quote:
Don't want to get wiretapped? Don't give them a reason.


Again, if there's a reason, it's called probable cause and you can get a warrant.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 12:45:11 PM , Rating: 2
Who do I trust to determine probable cause? The guy who works in the intelligence field? Or the liberal judge? Hmmm....

I'm going to go with the intelligence agent. I'd rather them follow up every lead they get without a warrant, than only go after those the judge determines to be worth the effort.


By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/2008 1:00:46 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Who do I trust to determine probable cause? The guy who works in the intelligence field? Or the liberal judge?


Wow, that statement stinks of a partisan opinion. While there are a lot of liberal judges, if you look at the current makeup of the Supreme Court Justices, they are mostly conservative appointees. On top of that, I'm certain there are good number of conservative judges. Even if there weren't, if a case merited elevation to the Supreme Court, the highest judges in the land are conservative appointees. So much for the idea that conservative ideals are on the losing side of the Judicial System.

quote:
I'm going to go with the intelligence agent.


The whole point of the Bill of Rights and the Constitution itself is to adhere to a system of law, not to use who you'd go with.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By sinful on 7/11/2008 7:37:25 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Who do I trust to determine probable cause? The guy who works in the intelligence field? Or the liberal judge? Hmmm....


Would you sing a different tune if some liberal cop busts down your door without a warrant because he thinks you're a terrorist?

quote:
I'm going to go with the intelligence agent. I'd rather them follow up every lead they get without a warrant, than only go after those the judge determines to be worth the effort.


Too bad Nixon isn't president, I'm sure he'd love your views on warrantless wiretapping.
=P


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By Kenenniah on 7/10/2008 12:40:01 PM , Rating: 2
No, my point was that it doesn't take away any freedoms. Like I said, you can argue the privacy side, which is where the Fourth Amendment comes in. I was only stating that we lose no freedom to do or say as we wish. We just lose some of the expectation of privacy while doing so.

On the privacy side, I don't personally don't believe the Fourth Amendment applies directly. Tapping a phone line requires no search or seisure of my personal property, but instead attaching to public networks. If they were searching my house without a warrant that's one thing, I just consider phones a little less private.

quote:
and wiretapping a phone is searching someone's effects


That is only an interpretation. Personal effects is defined as a legal term for "clothes, cosmetics, and items of adornment" http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/pers...

Or, "Privately owned items, such as keys, an identification card, or a wallet or watch, that are regularly worn or carried on one's person"
http://www.answers.com/topic/personal-effects?cat=...

Nowhere do I see the definition of effects equate to phone conversations.

That said I do understand your concerns. For me though, the difference between a good and bad government isn't what information they have, but what they do with that information. In your example of Yahoo and China, I find that wrong because the Chinese government uses that information to persecute dissenting citizens. The difference is China gets the information and tells people what they can or can't say. As long as the US sticks to only using the information for its intended purpose and not to curtail my freedoms I don't have a huge problem with it.

Bottom line it's a grey issue, and I do understand your side as well. It's all a balancing act between personal privacy rights and public need, and each of us have differing ideas on where the lines should be drawn.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/2008 1:05:34 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Or, "Privately owned items, such as keys, an identification card, or a wallet or watch, that are regularly worn or carried on one's person"


Do you dispute the idea that most people do carry phones on their person in todays age?

quote:
Nowhere do I see the definition of effects equate to phone conversations.


There is tons of historical legal context to show that wiretapping requires a warrant to begin with.

What you're missing is what this new FISA revision does.

It is still illegal to unwarrantably wiretap- now, phone companies can't get in trouble for it. What is the point of having a law if there's no consequence. It's like saying murder is illegal and morally wrong, but we won't put you in jail for it.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By Kenenniah on 7/10/2008 1:51:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Do you dispute the idea that most people do carry phones on their person in todays age?

No, but they aren't tapping your phone directly, or taking it and searching for illegal content etc. The "tapping" isn't happening on anything you personally own. Again, I do understand your side though, I just see it differently.

I also do know that legal precedence and context is on your side. That doesn't take away my right to believe otherwise.

In addition I do know what the revision does. My post was supposed to be in response to the Franklin quote about giving up liberties, therefore I didn't limit myself to the scope of the revision since giving immunity to telcomms has nothing whatsoever to do with our liberties. Also there is more to the revision, the immunities are just the most talked about aspect.

As far as the phone companies, the immunity has nothing to do with legality or the law. The immunity is from the civil lawsuits, which yes I agree with. They shouldn't be getting sued for complying with government requests. AT&T employees are not made immune from criminal prosecution. The only thing the provision does is remove civil liability for doing what the government told them to do.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
By Kenenniah on 7/10/2008 3:16:48 PM , Rating: 2
True. The only thing that makes this different for me, is that what they did was done at the request of the government. To me that makes it unfair for the government to turn around and let them be sued for it. I do understand they could have fought it, and with that in mind can easily see how other people disagree with the immunity.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By Grast on 7/10/2008 12:32:48 PM , Rating: 2
here here


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By zaxxon on 7/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 10:46:34 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
The right to bear arms is NOT about being able to shoot your neighbor or go waste ammo in the countryside.

Since when has the right to bear arms ever been a substitue for legalized murder? Everyone, outside of the mentally challenged and criminals, have the right to own a gun. Don't confuse that constitutional right with how you're allowed to use that gun.

You're way off base on the shooting your neighbor thing. What does that have to do with owning a handgun in your own home? And if I want to go to the countryside, where its legal to shoot a handgun or rifle, I will damn well do so if I want to.

Last I checked, no one was advocating for owning an M-16 or RPG launcher. We are advocating for owning a handgun, in your own home, which we've been doing so throughout history.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/10/2008 11:27:50 AM , Rating: 2
About the m-16 or RPG launcher....
If our forefathers only wanted us to have only the option to own pistols and rifles it would have been written that way and not bear arms. They left it as bear arms so new weapons could also be owned by the public.... Of course not Nukes - not very personal. One just has to realize if you are going to own a few M-16 or RPG's type of weapons you are going to be watched by the Government.
Of course you might not have been meaning can not own M-16 or RPG and meant it as we are covering handguns at this time....


By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 11:31:57 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Of course you might not have been meaning can not own M-16 or RPG and meant it as we are covering handguns at this time....

Correct, I was not advocating for or against fully automatic weapons or rocket propelled grenades or the like. I was merely just talking about the right to own handguns, which democrats are trying to take away - thus crapping on the original constitutional rights.
quote:
They left it as bear arms so new weapons could also be owned by the public....

You won't find argument on that from me!
quote:
One just has to realize if you are going to own a few M-16 or RPG's type of weapons you are going to be watched by the Government.

Yup.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 12:27:55 PM , Rating: 2
M-16 sure. But I don't think I want people to have the right to own RPGs....


By Seemonkeyscanfly on 7/10/2008 12:37:51 PM , Rating: 2
They can but I have no idea what you would have to go through to obtain one - plus I think they are very expensive. Not going to be at your local gun shop. Problem is, if you say "no" to one type of weapon then it can lead to "no" for other types.


By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 12:25:52 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not shooting my neighbor unless he breaks into my house. Then I'm protecting myself.

And how do you learn to shoot a gun? By going and "wasting" ammo in the countryside.

By your logic hunting is also illegal (unless the animals are part of the government too) and would have been since the country was founded. I guess a lot of us wouldn't be here then since how did a lot of people get food back then? HUNTING!

Just admit it. You don't like guns so you'll say whatever you have to to get rid of them.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By TheDrD on 7/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 9:45:06 AM , Rating: 1
And there is still oversight.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By zaxxon on 7/10/2008 10:38:53 AM , Rating: 2
well, I'm glad I don't live in the UK either.

Here in Switzerland, if 100'000 people are not happy about ANYTHING the government does, there will be a public vote on it!

(Best example : some leftists wanted to get rid of the army, for example by denying the airforce it's new F-18s. Although the government already had the money ready and it was decided to buy them, 100'000+ signatures were collected, a vote was held. "Fortunately" the vote went south and we have the jets now, but it could very well also happened the other way around and that would have been 100% binding for our government)


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 12:21:05 PM , Rating: 2
We'd be voting every day if we had that here. It might be practical in a country that has the population of one of our major cities. It's not here.


By snownpaint on 7/11/2008 10:54:44 AM , Rating: 2
I'm surprised at the shear lack of interest in what Average Americans think from the Hill and 1600.. We have a terrible system for collecting votes in this country. You can transfer millions of dollars over the phone , computer, or with a signature; securely and fast.. But it seems we can't get a concise voting system in this country.. Imagine your voice/vote could be counted. really count. Once a week Americans could choice/vote the future of Bills, amendments, local rulings and such.. (8am to 10pm voting on Friday) Locally and Nationally.. Not writing some guy that gets a million and half letters a month, for a hope of his yeah or nay. Actually your yeah or nay. With the diabolical of the previous elections and the non-standard in voting across the country, I'm seriously surprised that citizens don't scream to be counted..

Bah bah.. sheep.. Bah.. I guess its no surprise that when the flock gets big you need more eyes and ears, to see the wolf in sheep's clothing and make sure they move where the dogs push.. bah..


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By Machinegear on 7/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By aebiv on 7/10/2008 9:49:22 AM , Rating: 1
Double Triple Amen...

Those who think the Constitution a dead guideline are the same ones muddying what would be a clear, and concise form of order for a government.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 9:52:08 AM , Rating: 2
A true republic is less representative than the democractic one we have now. Then you only elect people to represent you. They choose the leader. Do you really want to give our elected officials the power to elect the president? Yes we have the electoral college but never in my memory has an electoral college vote gone against the votes of the district they're voting for.

And I'm perfectly aware of our history. I'm aware of how the New Deal, despite being a good idea for the time, is what has created the Welfare situation we're in now. I'm aware of the mistakes of the Vietnam War. And I'm especially aware of how the values of this nation are slowly being eroded away by the left in their defense of illegal immigration and those who do not assimilate into our culture and do not learn our language.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 9:58:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And I'm especially aware of how the values of this nation are slowly being eroded away by the left in their defense of illegal immigration and those who do not assimilate into our culture and do not learn our language.

You mean how Barack Obama said yesterday that our children should learn Spanish?


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By retrospooty on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By retrospooty on 7/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 11:53:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
if you complain and speak out against everything he does and wants to do are YOU yourself unpatriotic and unamerican???

Who says you're unpatriotic by using your freedom of speech or protesting? No one.

Its your physical actions that more less make someone/something unamerican and unpatriotic - like the city of Berkely trying to outlaw military recruitment centers while accepting government funds, which are made available by tax payers, which contains people in the US Military. And the city of San Fransisco changing the rules by not allowing high schoolers who are part of the Junior ROTC program to use that as a PE credit anymore, even though they undergo more rigorous physical exercise than those in gym class. Its those people who vote to pass crap like this that are unamerican and unpatriotic. Not people who disagree with the war - but those who try to change and punish the lifestyle of other americans due to their disagreement.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/2008 12:02:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Who says you're unpatriotic by using your freedom of speech or protesting? No one.


Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 12:06:45 PM , Rating: 1
So now you're concerned with members of the media? How about the NY Times during WWII accusing the US Government (Republican led at the time) of being worse than Stalin. Or how about the media members of MoveOn.org accusing our lead general of being a betrayer because they did not agree with his military assessment?

Citing Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter as your sources is idiotic.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 12:37:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
These two seem to be at the forefront of this idea that anyone protesting the war in Iraq or who disagree with policies by the government are unpatriotic and should just leave the United States.

You cited to far right conservatives in the media to make a point, and I cited to far left liberal media sources to make a point.

NY Times and MoveOn both go out there asserting that anyone who supports the war are unpatriotic betrayers to the country.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/2008 12:42:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
NY Times and MoveOn both go out there asserting that anyone who supports the war are unpatriotic betrayers to the country.


Well that's not my position, and so I am not concerned about responding to it. I disagree with it wholeheartedly.

On the other hand:

quote:
You cited to far right conservatives in the media to make a point


This was only because you asked.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 12:45:50 PM , Rating: 2
Likewise, I never said that I agree with everything that Bill OReilly or Ann Coulter say either.


By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/2008 1:07:09 PM , Rating: 2
I'm glad that you don't, but I never said you did agree with them. Again, I was just answering your question :)


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By retrospooty on 7/10/08, Rating: -1
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 12:13:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Mdogs now try thier best to distance themsleves from him and hios policies

I may not agree with all his policies, or attempted ones, like immigration reform and the will to even discuss lowering emissions at the G-8 summit...but you won't see me distancing myself.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 12:42:58 PM , Rating: 2
Who again is it that wants to add over a trillion dollars in government spending? Obama. Even if the war stopped tomorrow, we'd still be spending more than $800 billion more a year than we are now. Of course Obama's answer is tax the rich, tax investors, tax the oil companies! Of course to him, I'm rich.

Real good fiscal strategy. We might have the war in Iraq under Bush, but he's not pushing to expand other spending either. The war in Iraq isn't going to end just because Obama becomes president(christ I hope he doesn't). So in reality we'd be paying for that AND whichever of his crack pot policies get passed.

That's not even counting the nearly $800 billion dollars that Obama wants to give to the global poverty fund over the next 13 years. The rest of the world wants us to stop "interfering" but they sure as hell want the tens of billions of dollars in aid to keep on flowing.

At least the war in Iraq has given a people freedom. And eventually oil from Iraq will flow onto the global market which will lower prices. Not just for the US. For everyone.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: be careful what you wish for...
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 2:03:47 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
You know, Clintons strategy didn't differ too terribly much from Obama's (although it's not quite as simple as you're making it sound) and the country had a surplus budget by the end of his term in office.


Clinton administration NEVER had a surplus, that is myth and smoke screen. It was nothing more than transfering funds from one place to another. In fact, the closest he ever came to balancing the budget was a deficit of $17.9B.

Here is a good write up of it...

http://www.letxa.com/articles/16


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By retrospooty on 7/10/08, Rating: -1
By mdogs444 on 7/10/2008 2:17:08 PM , Rating: 2
Actually you would have to add the interoffice holdings of about $248B to that $17.9 for the real number.

While no one, not any conservative, will agree with and like the amount of spending that Bush administration has done...my point was to merely debunk the Clinton Surplus myth. Sounds to me like you already know its false.


RE: be careful what you wish for...
By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/2008 2:24:36 PM , Rating: 1
Here are some better writeups:

http://cbo.gov/budget/historical.shtml

I prefer more official sources, such as the Congressional Budget Office:

But if you'd like a nice graph with an analysis that includes a baseline comparison of the budget before and after Clinton, one was generated at FactCheck.org:

http://www.factcheck.org/askfactcheck/during_the_c...

I do question how motivation of how the data was presented at lexta.org, as well as their specific focus on Clinton. And if there wasn't a surplus, what were Bush and Gore debating over during the 2000 elections?


By HinderedHindsight on 7/10/2008 2:25:55 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, meant to say lexta.com