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Turns out the Mac commercials were right on one point -- many Windows PCs are stuffed with and crippled by malware.  (Source: World of Mac)
Sony, Acer, HP, are among the worst offenders

Apple's ads may unfairly insult Microsoft on some topics, but they do accurately point out some of the problems of the PC market now and then.  One of the points they've tried to drive home is how bloated with useless programs the average Windows PC is.  And it's a largely apt point.

A new study looking at computers from eight different manufacturers, including Apple found that while Windows 7 stacks up competitively to Apple's Snow Leopard when it comes to performance, OEMs are killing it with junkware.  Typically, with Windows PCs, manufacturers have piled on mounds of free and largely useless software onboard, bringing their boot times to a crawl and eating up disk space.  While not a problem to enthusiasts building their own systems, this industry practice is a headache to casual consumers.

According to the new study Windows 7 computer makers are tacking as much as 2-3 GB of junkware onto their PCs.  At best this junkware takes up about 200 MB of additional memory (due to some of these programs being automatically started on bootup), but at worst it can be much more (400+ MB).

The results were as follows (with an Apple Snow Leopard PC and stock Windows 7 performance offered for comparison):


 Boot Speed With/Without (min:sec) Benchmark Scores, With/Without Memory Footprint Extra HDD Space Used Bundled Software Value
Windows 7 (clean) N/A N/A 726 MB (appr) 0 MB Moderate
Acer 2:44/0:43 0.74/0.76 952 MB 2.4 GB Low
Asus 1:24/0:40
 0.96/0.98 1 GB 598 MB Moderate
Dell 1:29/0:37 0.83/0.85 1.18 GB 3 GB Moderate
HP 2:28/0:53 1.00/1.06 1.06 GB 2.18 GB Low
Lenovo 1:49/1:37 0.91/0.95 1.38 GB 819 MB Moderate
Samsung 1:30/0:42 0.96/0.96 952 MB 442 MB Low
Sony 3:17/1:23 0.92/0.99 1.11 GB 1.2 GB Low
Toshiba 2:13/0:39 0.74/0.76 953 MB 844 MB Low
Apple (OS X 10.6) 0:49 N/A 288 MB Not Given Moderate

As you can see from the table many of the vendors -- Acer, Dell, HP, and Sony performed very poorly, thanks to a bountiful load of crapware.  A handful -- Toshiba, but particularly Asus and Samsung -- offer better than expected performance for their hardware thanks to lack of junkware.  An oddball is Lenovo, which offers software that takes up a lot of space, but whose software actually more useful than most, according to PC Pro.

At the end of the day the study indicates prospective computer buyers really have only five decent options -- choose between a limited selection of companies that deal less junkware (Asus, Samsung), buy a non-Windows competitor (Linux/Mac), choose a smaller vendor, build your own computer, or spend a long time cleaning out the junk from your new PC.  The last two options are really the best ones, but have somewhat of a learning curve, take time, and may be a headache for casual users.  The middle option (small vendor) seems solid, but sometimes small vendors can be difficult when it comes to warrantied repairs, etc.

The second option (Macs) also is problematic, as you won't be able to play Windows games and will have less software options.  Likewise the first option (limited retailers) seems very constraining.  So at the end of the day there's a good answer for novice users with enough time (get educated and learn to build their own system), but there's no quick or easy approach.

This will likely lead some Windows users to forsake the platform and jump to OS X, not realizing the whole boatload of problems that the other ship comes with.  At the end of the day the situation is very disappointing -- Windows 7 offers very competitive performance.  However, the poor work of (many) OEMs is giving Windows PCs a bad name.
Microsoft store
A coming sixth option will soon be to buy a junk free Windows 7 PC at a Microsoft store.  The Microsoft-built PCs are getting very positive reviews and are very clean.  Unfortunately, only one such store (located in Scottsdale, Arizona) is currently open.  Another is on the way briefly -- located in Mission Viejo, California.  And more are expected to open in the future.

(For more info on precise models, hardware specs, please refer to the source article.)

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Microsoft POV
By morgan12x on 10/30/2009 2:38:48 PM , Rating: 5
I think MS should simply tell OEMs that if they want to retain their discount pricing they need to bundle Windows AS-IS. If they want to load it up with crap, they are welcome to pay full OEM pricing.




RE: Microsoft POV
By lightfoot on 10/30/2009 2:45:18 PM , Rating: 5
Microsoft can't dictate terms like that because it would be anti-competitive. Apple can dictate whatever they want because they don't have an appreciable market share.

An OEM would have to choose to do so themselves and build their own reputation around it (and then attempt not to get eaten by one of the bloated giants.)


RE: Microsoft POV
By sprockkets on 10/30/09, Rating: 0
RE: Microsoft POV
By Spivonious on 10/30/2009 3:08:09 PM , Rating: 4
Source?


RE: Microsoft POV
By sprockkets on 10/30/09, Rating: -1
RE: Microsoft POV
By weskurtz0081 on 10/30/2009 3:53:14 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, I have seen Dell advertise Linux based machines before, they pop up as Google ads. These are ads that Dell directly ran with Google.


RE: Microsoft POV
By sprockkets on 10/30/09, Rating: -1
RE: Microsoft POV
By Dark Legion on 10/30/2009 6:22:25 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
1. Advertise any computers anywhere that feature a competative OS such as Linux.


I believe the web counts as 'anywhere'.


RE: Microsoft POV
By jhb116 on 10/30/2009 9:38:42 PM , Rating: 2
Don't waste your breath. He is a knob. His other two points don't make any sense either. Why would a vendor recommend a previous generation of anything? It doesn't make sense ergo why it doesn't happen that often - if ever. And his last point - whopty do - so they "have to" put on the windows sticker. I can't remember the last time I've bought any type of computer product or even most appliances come with a boat load of stickers. If the stickers weren't on there - could you imagine the Best Buy salesperson going 'postal' after the 100th time someone asked - "hey is Windows installed on this machine."


RE: Microsoft POV
By sprockkets on 10/30/2009 10:28:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Don't waste your breath. He is a knob. His other two points don't make any sense either. Why would a vendor recommend a previous generation of anything?


Uh, when the next version of Windows comes out the ad changes, as in it used to be for Dell "Dell Recommends XP Professional" to Dell Recommends Vista Business"

Next, why don't you read this:

quote:
The Department of Justice also has argued that Section III.B will eliminate "any opportunity for Microsoft to set a particular OEM's royalty or license terms as a way of inducing that OEM to decline to promote non-Microsoft software or retaliating against that OEM for its choices to promote non-Microsoft software." (Id. at 28.) The Department concluded that Section III.B will "ensure that OEMs can make their own independent choices." (Id.)
Microsoft has been adjuged to have illegally maintained its operating system monopoly in violation of the Sherman Act. United States v. Microsoft Corp., 253 F.3d 34, 54 (D.C. Cir. 2001), cert. denied, 122 S.Ct. 350 (2001). This raises the possibility that Microsoft will use its monopoly power to force its OEM licensees to give up intellectual property rights, thus affording Microsoft the opportunity to expand its power. In the current Business Terms Document, Sony has negotiated narrow non-assertion covenants to reduce this possibility.


At this link: http://www.justice.gov/atr/cases/ms_tuncom/major/m...

Do you know why it's hard to find this evidence? BECAUSE MICROSOFT PAYS TO HAVE THE EVIDENCE SEALED IN NEARLY EVERY ANTI-TRUST CASE.

Damn, you people forgot the 90s so quickly. When were you all born, in the year 2000?


RE: Microsoft POV
By Alexstarfire on 10/31/09, Rating: 0
RE: Microsoft POV
By sprockkets on 10/31/09, Rating: 0
RE: Microsoft POV
By Denigrate on 10/31/2009 8:20:24 AM , Rating: 4
Yes, because the Clinton DOJ was doing such a good job. They attacked legitimate businesses like Microsoft, but allowed a HUGE DotCom bubble to develop that was based on nothing but hot air. That should have been investigated.


RE: Microsoft POV
By erple2 on 10/31/2009 9:37:49 AM , Rating: 2
What? That doesn't even make any sense. Venture Capitalists were going after what they perceived to be ridiculously high returns for a very high risk. Sounds like just plain dumb VC investment strategies. Kind of like buying a lot of Lottery Tickets.

The business of Microsoft was ultimately shown to not actually be running legally, hence the result of the entire Anti-Trust suit against them. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about. Which means you're a troll.


RE: Microsoft POV
By sprockkets on 10/31/09, Rating: 0
RE: Microsoft POV
By Pirks on 11/2/2009 3:17:02 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
You need to see what they did to try and kill quicktime, Netscape, Java
All of the three above are (or were) crappy P.O.S. bloated piles of junk, too bad MS managed to choke only Netscape (although Netscape was not as crappy as Java or QT for Windows), I wish it put the other two to sleep too *sighs*


RE: Microsoft POV
By Targon on 11/2/2009 7:07:55 AM , Rating: 2
Did you actually pay ANY attention to what happened in the 1990s, or do you just read the crap that was written by people who don't know ANYTHING about technology yet feel they can get away with writing about what is going on with technology?

The short version...

In the 1980s, as computers were starting to show up in more and more places, and then into the early 1990s, the technology sector really was booming due to innovation. From time to time, there would be some useless idiot who got venture capital money to start a technology company, but for the most part, the tech sector had start-ups founded by technology people.

The trouble really started in the mid 1990s with the sudden explosion into the public awareness of The Internet. And, you saw Internet Service Providers start to boom. In addition to this, web sites started to really pop up all over the place, and new products with a focus on the Internet were also springing up. This lead to a HUGE boom for the BIG companies like Sun and Cisco, who grew to satisfy demand from the start-up companies.

By 1997 or so, you also had a new breed that started to show up, the useless businessman who wanted to get in on the fully LEGIT technology boom. These useless people had no knowledge of technology, yet had a business degree and contacts to get venture capital. So, without having a product in hand, these useless bastards got a bunch of money to DEVELOP a product, without even knowing how to get it done.

With the hype of technology, and the MANY successful start-ups, the failure of some of the initial "fluff" companies founded by useless businessmen went unnoticed by some, or they just got more venture money to let them continue trying to get a viable product out the door.

And so, the year 2000. With all the money poured into Y2K compliance and getting software updated, many of the Y2K people suddenly were not needed, the scare was over, and they had done their jobs and were no longer needed. This look at "do we need these people" also sparked a look from venture capital firms, and they found a lot of the start-ups they invested in(the ones founded by businessmen) had run out of money, had no product, or just couldn't hope to bring in enough money to survive.

And so, the bubble on Wall Street popped. The venture capital dried up overnight. Sun and Cisco, plus THOUSANDS of companies that had good products and were profitable should not be seen as bad guys. There was a demand for their product by start-ups, and even many start-ups had customers for THEIR fully developed products and they WERE profitable, or were close to it.

It took another year and a half AFTER the bubble popped on Wall Street for the last of the venture money to be used up by the "businessman-founded" tech companies, and so, from 2000 through 2001, many companies started to fall. At first, you can say it was a good thing, companies without a viable product were going down. The problem is that the companies WITH a viable product found their customer base had evaporated. The smaller companies in many cases which had done well, or at least got to the point of being profitable suddenly had no customer base, since the other start-ups were their customers, who were now GONE.

And, so we had a domino chain reaction, with fully legit innovative companies closing down, and companies that had grown HUGE(Sun, Cisco, etc) suddenly being in the position where they had to down-size as the demand for their products went back down.

So, from this, what could ANY regulation have done?

There is nothing inherently wrong with getting venture money to develop a product, since if you need a factory to manufacture a product you would need money, and going from idea to design phase to manufacturing to sales often involves venture capital.

There is nothing wrong with selling your own product to another business that wants to make use of the product.

There are ALWAYS those who rush out to get involved in "the latest big thing" in the hopes of making a fortune.

The "HUGE DotCom bubble" itself really only started in 1997 and died three years later. The problem was the abrupt nature of how quickly it formed and how quickly it popped. If anyone was at fault, it was the venture capital people who spent far too much money on PEOPLE who had no knowledge of technology yet wanted to found a tech company.

So, who do you feel should be investigated, the Venture Capitalists for wasting so much of the money they had access to? The companies who had a product who just wanted to make money doing what their business was intended to do, sell a product/service? Was the government involved in the spending of "Venture Money" in the first place?


RE: Microsoft POV
By Bonrock on 10/31/2009 10:04:33 PM , Rating: 5
So basically, you're slamming Microsoft today for things they did 15 years ago, and just assuming (with absolutely no evidence, or at least none that you've cited so far) that Microsoft behaves the same way now that they did then. Look, I fully agree that Microsoft did some shady things back in the mid-1990s, but I think it's pretty clear that they're not the same company anymore. If they were, Office for Mac would have been killed off years ago, Zunes would be selling for $50 in order to kill the iPod, you wouldn't be able to change the default search engine away from Bing--and Apple and Google would have been crushed years ago.


RE: Microsoft POV
By sprockkets on 10/30/2009 3:23:40 PM , Rating: 1
I also can perhaps quote from before where in the past, OEMs were prohibted from installing any other version of DOS other than MS-DOS, no other OS other than Windows (back in the day when OS/2 and BeOS were new), and of course, Dell including DOS disks to computers that were sold with Linux around 5 years ago.

Why would dell include a set of MS-DOS with a computer that had Linux if it didn't mean anything to sell a computer without Windows?


RE: Microsoft POV
By lecanard on 10/30/2009 3:25:11 PM , Rating: 3
They had better put a windows key on the keyboard (should have 2 if there's room). Without that, windows 7 might as well be vista. Keyboard shortcuts (especially win+[number]) are what make 7 so awesome.


RE: Microsoft POV
By sprockkets on 10/30/09, Rating: -1
RE: Microsoft POV
By HaZaRd2K6 on 10/30/2009 3:39:21 PM , Rating: 5
No they aren't. They require it for future compatibility with Windows Mobile 7 phones.

Can you really blame them? The "Windows key" has become so ubiquitous that it makes sense for anything Windows-branded to incorporate it in at least some fashion.


RE: Microsoft POV
By FITCamaro on 10/31/2009 12:26:45 PM , Rating: 2
Is there a downside to having a Windows key? Macs have an Apple key. I use the windows key every day.


RE: Microsoft POV
By croc on 10/31/2009 10:40:12 PM , Rating: 1
More to the point, is there really an upside to a 'windows' or an 'apple' key? My Sun keyboard has neither, and I manage to stumble along just fine, thank you. Too bad neither OS can recognize the other functions of a true Unix keyboard, the 'sleep' key would be useful, as would the 'stop' 'a' function in OSX.


RE: Microsoft POV
By jbwhite99 on 11/2/2009 10:21:34 AM , Rating: 2
well, the keyboard I am typing on doesn't have a Windows key (it was made in 1994). Ctrl-Esc works just fine for me, and we'll have to see what the Windows key does when I install 7 at home (with a similar keyboard, ca 1993). These IBM M easytouch keyboards last forever.


RE: Microsoft POV
By Taft12 on 10/30/2009 4:14:21 PM , Rating: 2
... but is there any reason that keyboard shortcuts have to make use of the Windows key?


RE: Microsoft POV
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 10/30/2009 4:20:44 PM , Rating: 4
No. It's a key Microsoft added to their keyboards (They do sell their own keyboards) and supported in their OS. All other manufacturers followed suit back in the Win95 era. I doubt any real arm twisting had to be done.


RE: Microsoft POV
By Reclaimer77 on 10/31/2009 12:43:49 PM , Rating: 1
Microsoft's Ergonomic keyboard line are the best keyboards I have ever used. All others WILL cause wrist pain or possibly carpal tunnel eventually.


RE: Microsoft POV
By seamonkey79 on 11/1/09, Rating: 0
RE: Microsoft POV
By Cheesew1z69 on 11/2/2009 9:27:38 AM , Rating: 2
I love my MS ergo's, been using them for 10+ years


RE: Microsoft POV
By SavagePotato on 11/2/2009 12:33:29 PM , Rating: 2
There is a downside to the ergo keyboards.

I use the ergonomic 4000 both at home and at work. The downside is it completely ruined me for typing speed on a regular keyboard.

This becomes a problem in the fact that the ergo keyboards are not as good for gaming with the keys being so spread out. I would like to switch to a good gaming keyboard, but all attempts to do so have been met with frustration at being addicted to the layout of the ergonomic 4000.

Eventually I'm sure I would get used to a regular keyboard again, but typing comfort versus gaming is kind of a tough choice.


RE: Microsoft POV
By Targon on 11/2/2009 9:29:04 AM , Rating: 2
Or you just believe all the stupid crap that is said out there, just because it gets published. In much the same way that some people are prone to motion sickness, others may be prone to wrist problems. And then, there are those who are more resistant to these things, and in a thousand years, no one will have these problems because they have been weeded out of the gene pool.

Any scientific study that 'proves' one thing will generally have others that prove the opposite. Don't believe everything you read or hear. I prefer the Logitech keyboards, and I HATE the split ergonomic keyboards for being a royal pain to use one handed.


RE: Microsoft POV
By Entropy42 on 11/2/2009 12:18:05 PM , Rating: 2
How exactly are people "prone to wrist problems" going to be weeded from the gene pool? Maybe they won't be able to find suitable mate because of their lack of typing skills? Very few detrimental conditions are still weeded from our gene pool.


RE: Microsoft POV
By SavagePotato on 11/2/2009 12:29:08 PM , Rating: 2
You didn't even take notice of his complaint about one handed typing and capitalize on it.


RE: Microsoft POV
By Fritzr on 10/31/2009 3:28:17 AM , Rating: 2
It is just another shift key. You can tie a function to Y, Shift-Y, Ctrl-Y, Alt-Y and if your keyboard has a Win-key you can also use Win-Y even if you're running Amiga OS, Linux or other non-Microsoft OS. All you need is for your keyboard to generate a unique keycode for the Win-key combinations.

There is nothing special about the Win-key as yet another shift aside from it's implicit advertisement of the Microsoft Windows OS. If it joins the Alt key as a required key on the PC keyboard, then you will see Linux and other alternate OSes assuming it is available.


RE: Microsoft POV
By KonradK on 10/31/2009 12:30:25 PM , Rating: 2
Original Amiga keyboards have Amiga key exactly in the same place, where Windows key is placed in most of PC keyboards.


RE: Microsoft POV
By araknie on 10/31/2009 3:27:28 AM , Rating: 2
I know its not relevant to this thread but when are we gonna get a € key


RE: Microsoft POV
By Fritzr on 10/31/2009 3:31:21 AM , Rating: 2
Just as soon as you replace your US layout keyboard with a European one :)


RE: Microsoft POV
By Yawgm0th on 10/30/2009 7:15:48 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
1. Advertise any computers anywhere that feature a competative OS such as Linux.
On top of Dell, as mentioned, HP has been selling and advertising UNIX and Linux PCs for even longer.


RE: Microsoft POV
By erple2 on 10/31/2009 9:40:16 AM , Rating: 3
Don't forget that the Microsoft's OEM agreement stipulates that resellers also CANNOT:

4. Fly people to the moon.
5. Invent cars that can run 500 miles on a single charge
6. Sell Halloween Candy online in June.

I've never seen all three of those either, so it MUST be restricted by the OEM license.

:)


RE: Microsoft POV
By jinsaotomex4 on 10/30/2009 3:41:40 PM , Rating: 4
Wouldn't a better approach be to include all the crapware on a disk and just have OEMs install a program that simply gives you a notification on start-up, stating that additional programs and features can be installed from the crapware disk?
This way the system is clean right off the bat, and those who need the extra junk can willingly install it. I am sure even the average Joe can understand what a program does as long as the descriptions aren't too technical... or maybe not.


RE: Microsoft POV
By JCheng on 10/30/2009 6:32:26 PM , Rating: 4
It's not about who "needs" the extra junk. The crapware vendors (Roxio, McAfee, etc.) pay the OEM significant $$ to have their software preinstalled. I'm sure they'd pay a lot less to have their software just included on a disc that goes in the box.

I heard a story (may be apocryphal) that Dell ran a study to determine how much extra customers would be willing to pay to have their computer come without crapware--the answer was, very close to $0.


RE: Microsoft POV
By bjacobson on 11/1/2009 1:35:38 AM , Rating: 2
Sounds good to me. I want what is cheapest for me. I can format it for myself if I don't like it. Please don't pass legislation that keeps them from making the PC cheaper for me.

At the end of the day, the user is perfectly capable of learning how to reinstall Windows. With Vista/7 everything goes into Windows-Old and the new install is perfectly clean. It's very easy to do.


RE: Microsoft POV
By Integral9 on 11/2/2009 4:20:42 PM , Rating: 2
The study is flawed as I can't imagine anybody wants to pay more for something that should have come that way in the first place. It's like someone buying a sports car that comes with a trunk full of lead. Why would you pay someone not to put lead in your trunk?


RE: Microsoft POV
By Tom mc3s on 11/3/2009 3:21:32 AM , Rating: 2
This is much different, though, because the "lead" they have in the trunk of a Windows pc lowers the price for consumers. So their prices would either have to increase or their profits would have to decrease to offset the loss of revenue brought in by bloatware.


RE: Microsoft POV
By walk2k on 10/30/2009 4:34:05 PM , Rating: 3
They make more money from bundling the software too.


RE: Microsoft POV
By Kahnivorous on 10/30/2009 5:45:44 PM , Rating: 5
Heh, that would really make the MS sales reps have to work.

The study is completely flawed and is missing a lot of information that makes this more of a vague technical marketing more than a factual benchmark result. First, the computer specifications of each system is very important to list in order to support the colorful graph. Second, it's missing benchmark results. And, it's for good reason in favor of Apple.

Ambiguously speaking, the computer manufacturer is the main culprit for the slow load times. Each one performs differently which can't be counted against Windows 7 alone. My stock, non-bloated, Windows 7 benchmark systems boot much quicker than Vista on stock hard drives. Win 7 is even much quicker than XP Pro when using SSDs. Where's that information on the graph?

The OSX results are missing most likely because it'll show exact or very similar results revealing it to be just as any other OS - limited by its hardware and drivers.

Forgive my insult here, but this is a junk article that should have never ended up here on DT. This Number 10 for the year guys...you're going to lose all your educated, valid readers at this rate.


RE: Microsoft POV
By tfk11 on 10/30/2009 11:32:49 PM , Rating: 3
What does apple have to do with windows 7 laptop software bloat?

Apple users should be so lucky as to have multiple vendors competing by attempting to add value to laptops sold with OSX pre-installed.


RE: Microsoft POV
By Targon on 11/2/2009 9:32:31 AM , Rating: 3
Because the point of view is heavily skewed to show Apple computers in a positive light compared to Windows 7 based laptops. Then again, when you need to spend at least $2000 to get an Apple computer with a quad core processor, that is pretty weak.


RE: Microsoft POV
By atlmann10 on 10/30/2009 6:01:22 PM , Rating: 2
I thought the first thing you did when you bought a laptop was charge and then perform bloatware removal! I know that what I have always done, as I also don't remember buying one without tons of bloatware. As far as apple being any part of this issue there not. There market share is what even now with there gains nothing. The reason OEM's put bloatware is because they get a commission on everyone who decides to subscribe to it. That is also one way they drop prices. I am more of the feeling that anyone who does not want to learn how to actually use there machine does not deserve one. People whine about it taking to long etc., Of course the largest amount of people in the world today seem to whine about having to wipe there butts themselves so whats new.


RE: Microsoft POV
By neilrieck on 11/4/2009 10:58:47 AM , Rating: 2
The ads are funny but usually incorrect. For example, the PC guy should remind Apple guy that Macs used to run on Motorola 68xxx chips until Apple abandoned these customers by jumping to IBM's PowerPC. (Sure they provided a crappy back-emulator so people who jumped would be able to run their older apps on the new platform but these sucked). Then they pulled the same scam again by jumped to Intel's x86-64. Apple fans usually ignore these facts because Apple computing "is now a religion".


Ummm
By Cheesew1z69 on 10/30/2009 2:46:01 PM , Rating: 5
Cleaning out unwanted programs takes a learning curve? Um, it's called Add/Remove programs....




RE: Ummm
By jonmcc33 on 10/30/2009 2:49:16 PM , Rating: 2
The learning curve is for the average Joe who is completely oblivious to what they do and do not need to uninstall. I'm glad that you know how to uninstall programs but the average Joe will destroy their OS trying to undo what comes from the factory.


RE: Ummm
By JasonMick (blog) on 10/30/2009 2:54:17 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. It may be sad, but I'd say 50%+ of users don't know where add/remove programs is, or at least don't fully understand how to use it.

Further, there are some programs that don't show up in add-remove programs that I've seen prebundled. Granted, these are in the minority I'd say, but if a novice users runs across one of these, it might be enough to cause them to give up if they don't have some time and aren't determined to learn something.

In these cases you have to resort to a delete, but then the headache is cleaning out the registry junk.


RE: Ummm
By Granseth on 10/30/2009 5:05:48 PM , Rating: 3
the easiest solution is usually to reinstall the OS to get a clean install. And in the process you can get rid of the partitioning the OEM likes to add. A lot of average Joe's don't handle that the OEM think you need an c: and D: partition, so they usually fills up C: and leaves D: empty.

And the bloatware don't stop at new installs, but a lot of additional software, like printer and camera software, adds just as much bloat as the OEM's.


RE: Ummm
By mmntech on 10/30/2009 6:47:36 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is that a lot of manufacturers put bloatware on the install CDs. So when you do a "clean" install it just gets put right back on there. My parents had a Compaq laptop that was like that. Some do come with a clean copy of Windows but not all.

Some bloat also borders on having viral tendencies. It can be tricky to delete, especially if you're not tech minded.

The best solution is to buy barebones laptops sans OS or make sure it comes with a clean Windows install disc.


RE: Ummm
By artemicion on 10/30/2009 7:33:13 PM , Rating: 2
If Microsoft wanted to do something about it, the smartest thing they could do is develop an easy-to-use system tool that cleans bloat from your computer. Something that either pops up periodically, pops up when it detects x amount of bloat in memory, pops up when system performance degrades by x amount . . .
Then goes through the list of third-party software that loads on bootup, or whatever, and asks the user if they know what it is, if they want to keep it, etc. Then make it dummy proof by designing it in a way where the user can't destroy their computer, detect program dependencies and whatnot.

Alternatively, it's entirely possible that there's enough pressure from bloatware devs to OEMs to Microsoft to deter them from making this a "feature" in Windows 7/8/9/10.


RE: Ummm
By ChristopherO on 10/30/2009 10:27:21 PM , Rating: 4
Actually the pressure came from the federal government who demanded (as part of the consent decree) that Microsoft can't dictate what OEM's install on their machines.

Windows was a heck of a lot cleaner back then because MS only allowed Windows. I'm sure MacOS would have this problem too, if there were third parties tried to make a couple extra bucks on selling the machine. Since Apple controls the OS and the hardware, it's easy to not load it up with garbage. But then again Apple also has a huge profit margin, so they don't need to go for the easy-buck with crapware. Dell, HP, Sony, probably make more money on the included junk than they do the hardware.


RE: Ummm
By Granseth on 10/31/2009 3:57:40 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is that a lot of manufacturers put bloatware on the install CDs. So when you do a "clean" install it just gets put right back on there. My parents had a Compaq laptop that was like that. Some do come with a clean copy of Windows but not all./quote

I didn't know that. Guess I have had more luck with computers I've procured for family and friends.

One thing I would like to know is how much cheaper is my computer going to be if I get it with all the bloatware. If I save enough on the computer by getting a lot of crap, then I wouldn't mind that much.


RE: Ummm
By Reclaimer77 on 10/30/2009 5:20:35 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Apple's ads may unfairly insult Microsoft on some topics, but they do accurately point out some of the problems of the PC market now and then. One of the points they've tried to drive home is how bloated with useless programs the average Windows PC is. And it's a largely apt point.


This is the worst opening paragraph I have read by you, Mick, in a long time. Not only is the premise false, but it's not grounded in reality.

Microsoft HAS to support everything under the sun. Apple has limited what they have to support to a very small number of things. There is your "bloat".

What you call a "useless" program might be something someone else uses on a daily basis. I would cry to high heaven if MS stopped supporting it to cut down on "bloat".

quote:
In these cases you have to resort to a delete, but then the headache is cleaning out the registry junk.


Again, showing you know jack crap about PC's. The registry getting full of "junk" is a myth that hasn't applied since Windows 2000. The registry is only accessed by programs. If you have removed the program, than the "junk" left behind will not slow down your PC because NOTHING is left to access it. Beyond that, the whole idea that you would need to "clean" your registry is retarded. And it's certainly not MS's fault is someone didn't write their unistaller properly.

The registry does NOT effect system performance in modern Windows systems. Period.

quote:
Agreed. It may be sad, but I'd say 50%+ of users don't know where add/remove programs is, or at least don't fully understand how to use it.


You write for Daily Tech, so if you can't back these numbers up, then you are pulling them out of your ass. You must have Windows users confused with Apple's, I'm pretty sure a hell of a lot more than half of all WIndows users can uninstall a program. Do you know how condescending and insulting you are coming off as ?

And lastly, you completely miss the reason laptop performance suffers. Poor I/O. Most laptops come with slow hard drives for the purposes of longer battery life. Couple this with a minimum amount of slow as hell RAM, and we begin to see the problem here. Now hmmm..let me think. There might be something out there specially designed to remedy this..OH YEAH, SOLID STATE DRIVES. Are they even mentioned in this "article" ONCE ??

Is it even possible for you to write without bias man ? I noticed in your Fisker article you just had to go out of your way to mention Fox as many times as you could in a negative light, even though it had nothing to do with the story. Now you are sucking Job's knob hardcore again on this one. Seriously, we don't come here for your messages and agendas.


RE: Ummm
By aj28 on 10/30/2009 6:08:21 PM , Rating: 3
To be fair, he's talking about OEM bloatware, not the bloat within Windows. The OS itself is relatively lean, and runs well on fairly meager hardware. The issue at hand is the ridiculous apps bundled in by manufacturers which users absolutely don't need. It's just another method of padding their profit line, and because everyone does it, there's no baseline comparison for what their machines "should" run like, and consumers are left none the wiser.

I will say though, having spent a good amount of time in retail, that customers are royally offended if a system doesn't come with a bunch of extra apps. It seems empty to them, as if they got less for their money, or as though they can't "do anything" with it, even if all they want to do is use Internet Explorer.


RE: Ummm
By Reclaimer77 on 10/30/2009 6:41:34 PM , Rating: 3
It's just the way it's written. It's so blatant. So basically, for a Windows laptop, you pay less than Apple and get MORE. And somehow this is a bad thing ?

If you don't want it, uninstall it. If you don't like it, don't buy it. And if it's slow, it's because laptop hard drives suck and you need an SSD anyway.

And his comment in the discussion here where he basically says most Windows users are too stupid to even unistall a program is not only insulting and smacks of Macbanboism, but it shows his true colors.

This is a horribly written article. Plain and simple.


RE: Ummm
By TSS on 10/31/2009 11:18:50 AM , Rating: 1
Yeah screw the OEM's with their bloatware!

Screw HP when they put a recovery program on the HDD of my sister's computer! that thing puts up an extra screen before windows booting up taking up 3 seconds!

And especialy screw them, because i had to use it to reinstall the PC after Vista screwed itself over with a video preview icon and wouldn't boot up in any way possible again. I mean my god because of those bastards at HP i recovered 99% of the data!

wait... wut?

When does it's become bloatware? When it's useless? Then no OEM installs bloatware because if they only installed useless software, nobody would buy. It must have some use to somebody, somewhere.

Apple's not without bloatware too: You try to get Quicktime installed without iTunes because you don't have an ipod, hate apple, but want to see movie trailers which are all online in quicktime format (at apple.com/trailers).


RE: Ummm
By Pirks on 10/31/2009 1:40:21 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
try to get Quicktime installed without iTunes
What's the problem with going to http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download and choosing between two Quicktime versions, one with iTunes and the other without? Are you dumb or just trying to troll here a little, eh? ;)


RE: Ummm
By Xentropy on 11/1/2009 9:27:58 AM , Rating: 4
Have you actually done that? I did, and by default about once every two weeks the autoupdater program will pop up a window saying there's an update to Quicktime available for you to install. When clicking to see the update, it's the exact version of Quicktime you already have installed... + iTunes. It sees the + iTunes version as a "better" version than what you have (and thus an available update) and unless you disable autoupdate it'll nag you to install iTunes biweekly forever.


RE: Ummm
By Pirks on 11/1/2009 9:47:13 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Have you actually done that?
Yes


RE: Ummm
By Beno on 10/31/2009 9:02:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I will say though, having spent a good amount of time in retail, that customers are royally offended if a system doesn't come with a bunch of extra apps. It seems empty to them, as if they got less for their money, or as though they can't "do anything" with it, even if all they want to do is use Internet Explorer.

i didnt feel offended when i got the 30-day trial of Norton security software on my hp laptop, or the dozen of other (trial) crapware.


RE: Ummm
By johnsonx on 10/31/2009 2:56:12 PM , Rating: 2
Reading comprehension isn't one of Reclaimer77's strong suits, is it?

I've rarely seen a worse example of completely misunderstanding what was written.


RE: Ummm
By Yawgm0th on 10/30/2009 7:18:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Agreed. It may be sad, but I'd say 50%+ of users don't know where add/remove programs is, or at least don't fully understand how to use it.
If you tell them it's Add/Remove Programs, they're going to have a heck of a time finding it. ;-)


RE: Ummm
By dark matter on 10/31/2009 5:10:45 PM , Rating: 2
Obviously he uses Windows 7...


RE: Ummm
By Spivonious on 10/30/2009 2:58:30 PM , Rating: 2
Most users don't know what they can remove and what they can't. It's my number one suggestion to people with slow PCs. I usually have to go through the list with them and ask them if they use the program.


RE: Ummm
By weskurtz0081 on 10/30/2009 3:59:34 PM , Rating: 3
That's what I have always done.

Me: "Do you use this"
User: "Ummmm.... what does it do?"
Me: "Well, AOL is just a service you can pay for.... bla bla bla.... it's useless"
User: "Don't I need that to get to the internet?"
Me: "No, it's like paying for the internet twice"

I have to agree, people just leave it alone because they have no idea what to do. And, until there is a problem that prevents the computer from actually functioning, they just let it get worse and worse.


RE: Ummm
By Totally on 10/30/2009 5:19:43 PM , Rating: 5
for me it's much simpler and your leaving yourself open to uneccesary work.

Me: "Do you use this?"
User: "Ummmm.... what does it do?"
Me: "Nope." *deletes*, "Now, Do you use this?"


RE: Ummm
By IcePickFreak on 10/30/2009 5:55:25 PM , Rating: 2
When I get called on to "fix" someone's Laptop/PC that's a store bought brand name with all the bloatware, it usually ends in me using my own retail Windows XP/Vista/and now Win7 disks to do a clean install using the owners own serial key from their bloated install. I haven't any come across any issues with doing this, but now that I've posted it on the internet maybe I'll get a call from HP/Sony/Acer lawyers.

I also had to chuckle at the N/A for Apple for benchmark scores. What, they don't even have those? I suppose you'd need actual useful programs available to have a use for a benchmark. I kid, I kid, it wouldn't be an Apple to Apple comparison *groan@badjoke(s)*. Great, now I'll have lawyers AND yuppies hunting me down. ;(


RE: Ummm
By Reclaimer77 on 11/1/2009 11:02:58 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I also had to chuckle at the N/A for Apple for benchmark scores. What, they don't even have those?


Yeah it's just shameful how Jason does things. He comes out with this completely biased anti Windows article, and posts a graph of stats and benchmarks, but we aren't even allowed to make our own conclusions because the ONE Apple listed doesn't even have any data filled in. What the hell, come on. That is just bad bad BAD journalism.

And I think we are ALL getting caught up in his emotionally baiting premise. Have we forgotten that laptops are for convenience, not performance ? But again, nowhere in his article is a dollar for dollar comparison to Windows vs Mac laptops. I promise you, for as much or less than a Macbook, you can get a "bloat" free Windows laptop that will completely SMOKE a Macbook. We all know this to be true, but where is it in this article ?

Jason, if you had just made it about how "Some Laptops are Bloated", fine. We all know that and can accept that. But your pro-Mac bias ruined this article. You go out of your way to compare the two, but do a poor job of it by NOT providing us with enough information to make our own educated opinion on it. This is approaching MSNBC's style of giving half the story, sprinkling one half with half truths and misinformation, and making the other half sugar and spice and all that's nice. Boo I say, sir. Boo.


RE: Ummm
By Pirks on 11/1/2009 11:32:09 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Have we forgotten that laptops are for convenience, not performance?
quote:
For as much or less than a Macbook, you can get a "bloat" free Windows laptop that will completely SMOKE a Macbook.
These two kind of contradict each other, no? Do you mean SMOKE performance-wise? If yes, then they DO contradict each other definitely. First you say that laptops are not for performance, and then you say smoke as in performance benchmarks, right?

You better find a Windows notebook model and we'll compare it to MacBook for the same price, see if it's really bloatware free and stuff. General sentences like "we can find such and such notebook" are not worth much.


RE: Ummm
By natehow on 10/30/2009 3:57:16 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't it called Programs and Features in win7 now?


RE: Ummm
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 10/30/2009 4:21:45 PM , Rating: 3
My Computer -> Uninstall or change a program. Good day.


RE: Ummm
By jonmcc33 on 10/31/2009 7:20:32 PM , Rating: 2
Going to Control Panel you see a link for Programs but right under that is "Uninstall a program". Microsoft makes it completely obvious now.


RE: Ummm
By TomZ on 10/30/2009 4:13:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Cleaning out unwanted programs takes a learning curve? Um, it's called Add/Remove programs....
I don't think so. A lot of the "crapware" is stuff like bloated drivers, for example a webcam driver with associated crappy application. In that case if you uninstall the "driver" hoping to get rid of the application, you'll also be uninstalling the actual driver and not be able to use that device.

My solution is to re-image a machine when I get it. Quick, simple, and foolproof.


RE: Ummm
By psonice on 10/30/2009 4:46:00 PM , Rating: 2
In theory, it's Add/Remove Programs. Unfortunately that requires the crapware writers to not make crappy software that fails to uninstall itself cleanly/at all.

I had to clean up a PC full of such stuff recently. It took several hours, and at the end I was getting several annoying errors pop up regularly from half uninstalled software, some kind of "network management" software trying to phone home (after it was uninstalled!), services still running with half the files missing.. I gave up at that point and reinstalled from scratch (I would have done that in the first place but it was at work, and it urgent).

I'm MCSE qualified, and I gave up. How do you think average joe will manage?

This was a PC from a small local shop btw. They'd just installed all the stuff from the driver CD that came with the motherboard (think it was asus or gigabyte, can't remember which). So that rules out building your own too, as the average joe is going to insert that disk and hit "Full Install" :)


RE: Ummm
By Reclaimer77 on 10/30/2009 5:39:29 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah I call BS on this. All that did NOT happen because they installed everything from a Motherboard disk.

The problem about repairing someone's PC and then making a judgment of the platform based on that, is you have NO idea what they did to it before you started working on it.


RE: Ummm
By Pirks on 10/31/2009 3:29:47 AM , Rating: 1
I uninstalled a whole load of crap from some Acer PC (a friend of mine got it for his daughter) and now after this cleanup (purely by Add/Remove Programs thing in Control Panel plus one special utility to clean out focking Starforce drivers) Windows gives BSOD every time it gets shut down. I am not Mark Russinovich and I don't have a couple of months of free time like him to sit and "research kernel stuff" so I just suggested my friend to get his daughter a MacBook next time, even used one would be way easier for her to deal with since she's just a teen and can't grasp all this focking Windows "brightness", all the registry etc. In other words she's the total opposite of Reclaimer. Mac will suite her and all the other 90% of users (non techie ones) much better than Windows. Of course it would be better to install everything on your own starting with Windows but it doesn't work for users like her, and these are majority ;)

No wonder Macs are on a roll these days, while MS keeps shrinking. Well deserved, MS.

But they just started to sell their own PCs! At last! My dream of MS built PC came true, this may turn the boat for them. They learn from Apple quick, that's a good sign. Apple needs some real competition too, you know :)


RE: Ummm
By Fritzr on 10/31/2009 4:06:06 AM , Rating: 2
Much simpler to buy her a decent laptop and a retail version of Windows (upgrade edition with the Recovery Disks qualifying as a "previous version")

Repartition and format the hard drive, install the retail Windows and add the hardware drivers needed. This will eliminate 90%+ of the bloatware & you can probably catch most of the baggage attached to the drivers when you install those.

An actual question poted on a non-tech website:
quote:
I really like to open a microsoft operation (windows media player and winamp ) in my mac computer but i dont know how.
Can someone help me? Thanks.


Installing Windows on a Mac just adds to your tech support headaches when they discover that the Mac doesn't support their favorite Windows apps & games :)


RE: Ummm
By Pirks on 10/31/2009 1:48:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Much simpler to buy her a decent laptop and a retail version of Windows
Bullsht, she can't reinstall Windows. Mac only for her ;) MacBook is exactly at her level of simplicity (and other 90% of mass users too), Windows is way too complex... unless you are a techie and know who sells what, see SavagePotato's post on that about his touch OEM or something, or my own experience with my bloatware-free Dell Vostro. But she has no tech experience so... hello Mr Jobs. Again.


RE: Ummm
By dark matter on 11/1/2009 4:21:04 PM , Rating: 2
Cool,

Maybe MS should use that line. Apple = simple computers for simple people.

;)


RE: Ummm
By Pirks on 11/1/2009 10:15:52 PM , Rating: 2
That's too dangerous 'cause simple people are a majority. You are not going to ask MS that they use a slogan like "Mac is a computer for majority of us", are you?


RE: Ummm
By fic2 on 10/30/2009 5:00:00 PM , Rating: 2
PC Decrapifier (http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/) FTW!


RE: Ummm
By SiliconAddict on 10/31/2009 1:55:16 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, but uninstalling apps does not always speed things up. Especially when you have "helper" apps installed by the OEM that do not have installers.

As always I NEVER boot up a system with an OEM image. When I get a new PC I pop in an XP disk (Now windows 7) and boot off of it first thing.

Nuke it from orbit, its the only way to be sure.


This isn't a PC problem
By amanojaku on 10/30/2009 2:44:32 PM , Rating: 5
This is a vendor problem, easily solved by reinstalling, building your own or buying from a small company that doesn't load any crap.




RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Bateluer on 10/30/2009 2:48:54 PM , Rating: 5
Beyond the abilities of 90% of people.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Taft12 on 10/30/2009 4:17:44 PM , Rating: 2
Pulled out of your ass of course, but I'd put the number more at closer to 99%

It's more than reinstalling from the Windows DVD, you need to be able to install drivers off the vendor's site too. I can't think of one person in my family that would be capable of this.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Camikazi on 10/31/2009 1:19:24 PM , Rating: 3
I've taught most in my family to at least recognize and name all parts in a computer, as well as trained them not to hit yes to all boxes and read. Takes time and patience but at least I don't get calls over stupid things and amount of virus infected computers in my family have decreased. Lot of up front time investment but worth it overall.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By SavagePotato on 10/31/2009 12:48:22 PM , Rating: 2
Buying from a small company isn't beyond the abilities of most people.

The place I work at used to have a retail store and sell touch desktops. For notebooks you are pretty well at the mercy of OEM's but for desktops there are more than a few brands like that which are actually a better machine than the dell's and hp's of the world.

The machines they used to sell there were all built on decent asus boards, had minimal to no extra stuff installed, at most they would bundle a 90 day norton or something which we would just remove anyway when setting up the machine for the customer. They were a little more money than the $399 dells of the world, but if you are buying a pre built system I would definitely recommend a smaller name like touch to anyone that can't do it themselves.

They even had a 3 year warranty that was damn good by default which makes a difference. With dell you pay a good bit extra for a 3 year. I RMA'ed a motherboard or two for customers with a month left on their 3 year (that was probably toasted by a power surge to boot) and got back a new mobo, processor and ram if necessary for the customer if their old parts were no longer available.

The small shop has it's advantages over the monster oem's.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Pirks on 10/31/2009 1:54:59 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
For notebooks you are pretty well at the mercy of OEM's
And since the world is moving over to notebooks... see what I mean? ;)


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By SavagePotato on 10/31/2009 5:33:45 PM , Rating: 2
Netbooks are more popular than notebooks, so as always you are a day late and a dollar short pirks.

Having purchased a dell studio 17 it was not bad at all for crapware. Having set up many an acer for customers yes, they were horrid for crapware as well as broken crapware.

I reloaded my dell but it wasn't even neccesary.

PS. The only thing anyone sees with you is a great deal of hot air, not a point.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Pirks on 10/31/2009 7:38:37 PM , Rating: 2
Besides your usual load of empty words, did you find anything that contradicts my statement that desktops are going the way of dodo? No? Good. Keep posting some more empty words then :P

Yea, I know about crapware-free Dells, got one myself three years ago (Vostro), but you know that Dell is rather an exception. Sorry Potato, not many OEMs like Dell around these days ;)


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By mindless1 on 10/31/2009 7:42:11 PM , Rating: 2
Don't be silly, very few people own note/netbooks without already owning a desktop system, and that trend isn't likely to change in the near future. The sale figures for notebooks and netbooks simply reflect the fact that desktops don't need replaced as often.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By SavagePotato on 10/31/2009 10:17:35 PM , Rating: 2
The desktop is not going anywhere.

And the only dodo in this thread would be you. As usual keep on fantasizing in your little dream reality that you've built for yourself.

The one where you conceive yourself as knowledgeable rather than just a deluded forum troll like the rest of the world views you.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Pirks on 11/1/2009 1:56:01 AM , Rating: 2
So what do you say when you see recent statistics that show that notebook sales are up every year and desktops sales are down every year? You saw these pics here on DT, didn't you?

If you saw them it'd be the wisest for you to shut up now, before you ridiculed yourself even more. Know when to stop Potato and you'll be fine :P


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By SavagePotato on 11/1/2009 11:09:43 AM , Rating: 2
And? because people are buying lots of notebooks we can logically conclude that the desktop is going to disapear entirely? No, pull your head out of your ass as usual pirks.

Much like the people like you that have been mouthing off about the death of pc gaming for oh, the last 20 years, which never has and never will happen, desktops are not going anywhere.

You know I don't think I have come across anyone that needs a good old fashioned beating as much as you pirks. Seriously, go walk into a biker bar and start talking the way you do here. It will do wonders, wonders for your personality to get the severe hospital stay inducing ass kicking you have been lacking in life to fix your attitude.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Reclaimer77 on 11/1/2009 11:19:26 AM , Rating: 1
Here Pirks take one of these and stick it down your pants.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/08/06/another-powerbo...

I'll stick to my desktop thank you much. Never had one try to kill me.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Pirks on 11/1/2009 11:41:01 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'll stick to my desktop. Never had one try to kill me.
Don't drive cars ever, Reclaimer, they can kill you too! Travel everywhere on foot, it must be as safe as your desktop haha :))


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Pirks on 11/1/2009 11:45:45 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
because people are buying lots of notebooks we can logically conclude that the desktop is going to disapear entirely?
No idiot, I said that people buy less and less desktops and more and more notebooks every year, so your note about some magic bloatware free touch _desktop_ becomes less relevant every year. I'm pretty sure that's too complex for your damaged brain to grasp, so you better run into your beloved biker bar wall and kill yourself nine iron swinging loser :P


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By SavagePotato on 11/1/2009 11:57:57 AM , Rating: 2
It changes nothing about my comment, People still buy desktops and buying them from a small shop is a good option, as many of those less noticed brands, of which there are many, are not only better quality, but free of bundled software.

As for notebooks you are at the mercy of the oem. So what exactly in my statement is wrong there pirks? Oh right nothing. You are just beaking off as usual for the sake of listening to yourself as usual.

Furthermore, a customer could easily buy a notebook at a shop and have their techs take off the crap for them when they load it. Personally I did it all the time for people on their initial setup fee that most shops like that charge. Especially with Acers running Vista when it came out due to the fact Acer was releasing notebooks with software so bad it gave compatibility warnings and crashed on startup.

Guess what, even with paying a tech to do it during setup you are still hundreds and hundreds of dollars cheaper than one of your precious macbooks.

You are just a mouthy little 16 year old punk (proven by your whining about the rules of obtaining a canadian drivers license in a previous article.) with no life experience and a great deal of hot air. The one thing that I regret is I won't get to see the day someone knocks all your teeth out for being a mouthy little prick, but oh well. Trust me it's going to happen.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Pirks on 11/1/2009 12:07:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
People still buy desktops
Yeah, they still buy FEWER AND FEWER desktops every year because they replace them with notebooks slowly. So your note becomes less and less relevant. People will get more and more at a mercy of cheapo PC notebook OEMs like Acer that love to load their cheapo machines with bloatware to offset the cost, and all the mountains of stinky goo pouring out of your dirty mouth hole can't hide this fact :P


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By SavagePotato on 11/1/2009 12:23:28 PM , Rating: 2
People buy what is cheap. If they can buy a desktop for the family, and 3 or 4 netbooks for their kids and themselves because they are cheap, or even a cheapo notebook then they will. So what? It does not change that desktops will always be around, or the fact that people still buy plenty of them now, and they can go do exactly what I said for their desktop needs.

You are talking about a prediction not a fact. Maybe you should get a job as one of those idiot analysts with their head up their ass. You would fit right in.

You assume it's linear, that people are going to buy less and less desktops till eventually they buy no desktops. Once again that's called a prediction, not a fact. People may purchase notebooks in more significant quantities with desktops leveling out in a position below them at some point, or something else entirely may happen.

One thing is for sure though. I don't put much stock in the analysis of a whiny little mouthy know it all like yourself as to what the market will do.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Pirks on 11/1/2009 2:23:40 PM , Rating: 2
Well, so far people were preferring notebooks more than desktops for a number of years now, and I see no justification for your assumption that the trend will reverse.

Desktops have disadvantage of being immobile, that's why people will move to notebooks mostly, although some number of desktops will still linger around for a while, I give you that, mista redneck ;)
quote:
People buy what is cheap
Exactly potato, NOW you got it! People do buy cheapo notebooks more and more because they like mobility. Desktops lack this mobility factor, hence my predictions. At least they have some solid common sense arguments behind (like "people prefer mobile solutions that are cheap, this turns out to be modern notebooks"), unlike your usual baseless frothy mouthing and feces throwing :P


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Pirks on 11/1/2009 2:52:58 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
even with paying a tech to do it during setup you are still hundreds and hundreds of dollars cheaper than one of your precious macbooks
And buying rusted 1980 chevy and tuning it up in a nearest garage is also thousands cheaper than buying new Camry or Lexus, so what? I know that crap is cheap, no need to teach me basics, redneck. My point was that PC notebooks are mostly crappy, cheap and _bloatware infested_ to boot, with a few exceptions like Dell. Which you kinda agreed when you unwillingly noticed that yeah you PC notebook buyers are "at the mercy of your OEM". This is _exactly_ what Mick said in his article. You wanna argue with him - then go argue with him, idiot. Or you don't get balls to pick on Mick, eh?


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By SavagePotato on 11/1/2009 3:54:18 PM , Rating: 1
Please find something other than car comparisons. Seriously. It's just laughable at this point. You cannot get through a single article without bringing up ye olde lexus comparison yet again.

As usual you run in circles and contradic yourself. You extol the virtues of the macbook, but wait your point was that people like cheap computers, but wait again cheap computers are like a cheap chevy and a mac is like a lexus. You seriously just go whichever direction you have to in order to disagree and act like an ape tit.

I didn't unwittingly notice anything you worthless little piece of shit, I made a simple observation in which it is common knowlege that notebooks come from oem's and pretty much nothing else, save for the handfull of do it yourself options like ocz provides, or at least provided at some point.

One thing I do know, is I would gladly pay the price of a macbook pro for the opportunity to kick your teeth in repeatedly. Because you are the single most annoying, worthless, asinine peice of human excriment that I have ever had the misfortune of coming across in my life.

Do humanity a major favor and off yourself at the earliest possible chance.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Pirks on 11/1/2009 10:27:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You extol the virtues of the macbook, but wait your point was that people like cheap computers, but wait again cheap computers are like a cheap chevy and a mac is like a lexus.
A simple down to earth explanation for dumb rednecks: people like cheap computers because they are cheap, but people also like Macs because they are quality. If you find any contradiction in that, you're damaged beyond repair :P
quote:
I made a simple observation in which it is common knowlege that notebooks come from oem's and pretty much nothing else
I added to your observation the fact that most popular cheapo notebook OEMs like Acer love to preload crapware on their notebooks, and suggested to make some conclusions, to which your replied with your usual bunch of verbal feces. Why your feces then? Got a problem with these facts about Acer and cheapo notebooks preloaded with crapware? Then throw your feces at Acer, not at me, got it loser? ;)
quote:
being just a punk kid with a hard on for apple
If I were such kid I'd thrown my Alienware and Dell machines outta window a long time ago, and replaced them with Macs. But I didn't, and your little rat's brain will never comprehend why :P Which amuses me quite a bit, hehe :))


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By SavagePotato on 11/2/2009 12:16:03 PM , Rating: 2
On the contrary, since I am 100% sure your mommy and daddy bought them for you, you don't have the leave to throw anything out.

You did what you always do pirks. You take something someone has already said, turn it in such a way to insult that person as much as possible, and pretend that you are the one that introduced that point. You have alot more in common with apple than you know in that respect.

It was never in dispute that companies like acer load computers with crapware, My post said that, the article said that, the point was there already because IT WAS THE FOCUS OF THE ARTICLE IDIOT.

All, and I repeat all you did was come in with your usual smug garbage pretending you are actually saying something when yet again you are just picking something to be a mouthy little wiener about as if you know something someone else does not.

It does not change the fact that there are better options than the bottom of the barrel price wise without going to a mac. Not only with desktops, but notebooks as well. You can easily get quality that surpasses the macbook for less money with a windows notebook, that isn't even in contention.

Now as per usual you will continue in your delusional world where you beleive you actually have a valid opinion and are not in fact just trolling as you always do. (love that less than 1 overall post rating there wiener)


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By Pirks on 11/2/2009 3:33:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I am 100% sure your mommy and daddy bought them for you
It's this idiocy in your posts that amuses me the most :) Keep frothing like that, redneck, it's sooo funny hehehee :))))
quote:
there are better options than the bottom of the barrel price wise without going to a mac
Agreed. Dell is number one among such options for me.
quote:
You can easily get quality that surpasses the macbook for less money with a windows notebook
This is subjective. Quality is different for different people. For you, say, quality equals amount of gigahertz and gigabytes inside the case, for other people quality means trackpad & keyboard & screen in first place, followed by weight/thickness/battery efficiency ratio, then followed by robustness/UI speed/security of the OS, sturdy metal case, little polish touches like magsafe and other minor stuff like that. For these kinds of consumers Windows notebooks can't stand competitions with MacBooks quality wise yet.


RE: This isn't a PC problem
By SavagePotato on 11/1/2009 4:30:20 PM , Rating: 2
Your "point" as usual is also incorrect. The majority of windows based notebooks are indeed inexpensive, but they are not necessarily cheap or crappy.

While there are low quality offerings from pretty much every OEM including dell, most also offer very good quality mid to high range offerings that outperform any mac in price and performance. The bundled software has no relation to the hardware.

Someone at work just purchased a little asus unit that was about $700, it has great specs, is built very well, and came with little problematic bundled software.

If anything the cost to quality ratio for windows notebooks has improved thanks to netbooks. As has the desktop. Which is why the desktop is not going away. Prices for the average desktop computer are still very competetive, and the desktop has and always will have many benefits over the notebook.

As for touch systems, take your pick. Most of the e-tailers like ncix, etc sell some type of in house configured machines which cost a little more than the subsidised bundle loaded acer's of the world but offer better brand name components, and no bundled software. Touch which I mentioned is just one of many small oem's that are a different story from the huge oems. Even though they do often come at a slightly higher price they are still far from being gouged at a premium like apple hardware.

If you actualy had some practical knowledge, other than being just a punk kid with a hard on for apple, you might already know this.


But
By sprockkets on 10/30/2009 2:35:54 PM , Rating: 2
PCs sold at the Microsoft store have no junk on them (unless you consider their live stuff non essential). I wish Microsoft would force them to do this all across the board instead of them just asking $50 not to put it on in the first place.

The average consumer doesn't want to see $50 or any cost to have a PC just work right, nor do they want to deal with spending 30 minutes or more removing trial software.




RE: But
By MarcLeFou on 10/30/2009 2:47:10 PM , Rating: 2
Sounds sensible but OEM actually subsidize the cost of their laptops with some of the crapware on there.

But I do agree that's a big issue. Dell's Vostro line has been a boon in that regard (no 3rd party crap). Still has dell's "utilities" though but that's not too bad.


RE: But
By kattanna on 10/30/2009 2:46:36 PM , Rating: 3
but that $50 you have to pay is because of the lost revenue the company doesnt make by installing all that crapware.

symantec pays a fee for each copy installed of their craptastic norton internet security with its 90 days of activation, cause they know they will get enough suckers to pay for it, that its VERY worth their while to do so.


RE: But
By fic2 on 10/30/2009 8:20:30 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, but they probably only make $10-20 by installing the crapware, but charge you $50 to not install it.


RE: But
By nafhan on 10/30/2009 3:56:14 PM , Rating: 4
Windows + crapware is a money maker for the OEM's, and I'm fine with that. It allows me to get a cheaper machine with the minimal effort of removing it. The restore discs (or even worse: restore partitions) are annoying, and I will pay the extra $10 or so for a real copy of the OS.
If your time is worth more than the amount of money you save by having crapware pre-installed, you can probably afford one of the high end or gaming machines that tend to be crapware free.


RE: But
By bodar on 10/31/2009 5:56:47 AM , Rating: 2
I agree. It's not a problem to me as long as the junkware can be uninstalled without too much hassle -- I saw an HP laptop with like 15 Wild Tangent game trials installed and each was a separate uninstall.

Apple has no true junkware, because there are no OEMs to install it. If that's part of the Apple Tax, then OEM junkware is like a tax break.


RE: But
By mindless1 on 10/31/2009 7:45:04 PM , Rating: 2
So what? It's a big hassle to click uninstall 15 times? Really? Seems to me that if the system is what you otherwise wanted, clicking a mouse button a few times to end up with the config you want is as good as it's going to get.

On the other hand, it's often the case that if you buy from a company's business division instead of home, there's much less junk installed.


Why do they all need tray icons?
By miteethor on 10/30/2009 2:47:11 PM , Rating: 5
Another question - why is it that every piece of crapware has to load on startup? If it just sat there as a shortcut on the desktop I wouldn't mind so much. It's the fact that EVERY SINGLE ONE of these crap-apps needs a tray icon and a 3% slice of my CPU to do nothing but update itself that drives me batty. At least if they just sit inert as icons they aren't taking up CPU cycles and Memory for nothing.

I especially can't stand the Adobe and Apple updaters - they are like viruses. Every time you take them out of startup they put themselves back in. And everytime you turn around they nag you to update constantly. I really don't care if my PDF reader is at the maximum level, and I certainly don't want to pre-load it "just in case" I want to look at a pdf today. Programs should open when I tell them to and not before. Don't presume to know what and when I want to load something on my own machine.




RE: Why do they all need tray icons?
By Hakuryu on 10/30/2009 3:48:30 PM , Rating: 2
I dislike the Apple and Adobe 'tricks' also.

Maybe it can be beneficial to clueless users who would never update, but they should at least add an option to stop that behavior for advanced users.


RE: Why do they all need tray icons?
By HalJordan on 10/30/2009 3:55:20 PM , Rating: 5
Apple's crap is awful. I don't need Apple I-Tunes running all the time, (My wife uses it, I don't) but after it is turned on, it just won't go down without a fight. I liken it to hiring a plumber to fix your sink, however, when the job is over he doesn't leave. In fact the plumber stands next to your sink, and every time you use your sink the plumber yells, "Hey, need me to fix that sink?" So, you tell him no, and he can leave. He doesn't. The plumber keeps standing there. "Hey, I can help you with that sink." No, the sink is fine I say, in fact I wasn't even going to use the sink. Just getting a snack from the fridge. "Fridge,eh? I can fix that." Finally, you are forced to kill the plumber, and learn to fix your sink yourself.


RE: Why do they all need tray icons?
By fcx56 on 10/30/09, Rating: 0
By mindless1 on 10/31/2009 8:50:33 PM , Rating: 2
Use Foxit PDF reader, uninstall what you don't want, and disable things that load at boot-time. Not a hard thing to do, just make a backup before you start and in worst case you simply restore the backup... over the life of a system these things are well worth the 20 minutes of initial configuration, you probably spend more time picking out the system than this.


Nothing new, Windows has already been like this
By Bateluer on 10/30/2009 2:50:11 PM , Rating: 2
Windows 7 OEM machines are no different than Vista machines, XP machines, 98 machines, 95 machines, etc. They call came bundled with loads of junk that you had to reformat and reinstall.




By sprockkets on 10/30/2009 3:02:54 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, no, back in the good old days, like 1998, computers actually came with Office (yes, not a trial version, in fact, there were no trial versions!), Netscape, some useful apps like a DVD player or other unique games and screensavers, and get this, actually came with a real OEM disc to reinstall windows, unlike using a stupid image on the hdd. No trial software for AOL, no trial a/v was pre installed either.

Of course, win98 was infamous for not booting at all, locking up, and the computers back then costed around $1500.


By mindless1 on 10/31/2009 8:42:26 PM , Rating: 2
Back in those good ole days, whether it came with office or other full OEM apps depended on the price-point of the system, it did raise the price to include office.

Many of them didn't even come with the entire office suite and I'm talking about $2200 PCs, they came with Word and MS Works instead.

I don't see what the big deal is though, uninstall is a standard windows feature.

Not all came with the full OEM windows disc either, and yet some do come with it today. It seems you are talking about only one or two specific systems not the industry norms for the period.


By mindless1 on 10/31/2009 8:46:56 PM , Rating: 2
Odd, I've removed these pre-installed apps plenty of times, plenty of systems, add/remove programs generally works fine. When you have an exception to that you merely need to Google search for the solution.

A format and clean install is the ultimate way to be *sure* but being sure isn't really necessary, merely that the system runs as expected without any detected problems.


Average users click here...
By The0ne on 10/30/2009 3:09:33 PM , Rating: 4
http://www.pcdecrapifier.com/

Removed the junk and be a happy camper :)




RE: Average users click here...
By Spivonious on 10/30/2009 3:14:51 PM , Rating: 2
I thought "what a great idea" and then I saw that it removes Office 2003 and 2007.


RE: Average users click here...
By Golgatha on 10/30/2009 3:47:23 PM , Rating: 3
Only the unactivated trial versions.


Boot times without
By Sivar on 10/30/2009 2:48:56 PM , Rating: 2
Why is it that Dell and Toshiba have such blazing fast boot times compared to the rest even once the garbage has been removed?




RE: Boot times without
By morgan12x on 10/30/2009 2:52:19 PM , Rating: 2
Because they use standard hardware that doesn't need tons proprietary drivers. (IE Sony) Have you ever reloaded a Sony. Honestly... could you put any more one-off hardware in a single box!?!?!


RE: Boot times without
By Taft12 on 10/30/2009 4:20:12 PM , Rating: 2
They don't mention hardware specs anywhere, the Dell and Toshiba systems must have more RAM and/or a faster CPU.


RE: Boot times without
By jmurbank on 10/31/2009 6:12:48 PM , Rating: 2
It is not the processor or RAM that relates to fast boot times. It is the hard drive. Probably Toshiba and Dell selected a hard drive that performs well with the hardware. It is all about how well the components integrate with each other. If the hardware has less to no conflicts, performance will be very, very good. If hardware have conflicts, performance will suffer. Hard drives with a low latency usually performs better for boot times. It is latency that always rules the performance of the computer. Throughput does not.

Not all hard drives are compatible with every storage controller, so it seems both Dell and Toshiba spends more effort to find a hard drive that has fewer conflicts with the storage controller.


By honestIT on 10/30/2009 8:58:11 PM , Rating: 2
This is the main issue with MS versus Apple. Apple controls everything and does a good, albeit expensive job. When you buy a Mac you don't spend hours wondering why its so slow. MS should set guidelines as to how computers with Windows 7 are bundled. If not it will ruin the reputation of a great OS.




By Reclaimer77 on 10/30/2009 9:04:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
MS should set guidelines as to how computers with Windows 7 are bundled.


NO. Just no. That would ruin MS and could lead to lawsuits too.

MS totally dominates Apple. How in the hell would going to a Apple style closed off proprietary environment increase profits ?


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 10/31/2009 1:47:32 AM , Rating: 2
Only thing it will do is get them sued into oblivion for abusing their monopoly position.


By Pirks on 10/31/2009 3:39:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
MS should set guidelines as to how computers with Windows 7 are bundled. If not it will ruin the reputation of a great OS.
That's a bad idea, Reclaimer already told you why. But, in fact, MS has already fixed this problem by selling clean crapware-free PCs in Microsoft retail store (hopefully there will be much more stores open in future).

So, problem solved. Wanna high quality PC? Go to Microsoft store! It's that easy.


Windows 7 is still BLOATED when clean
By jmurbank on 10/31/2009 7:33:57 PM , Rating: 2
It is not the boot time that matters. It is the memory foot print that both Windows 7 and MAC OS X puts on the computer. MAC OS X uses about 300 MiB of RAM while Windows 7 (clean) uses about 800 MiB of RAM. This is a big difference what is bloated and what is not bloated, so boys and girls if you think Windows 7 is still not bloated after installing in a clean fashion you have a long way to learn how computer work. An OS taking up about 800 MiB of RAM upon boot up will take a long time to load up. It will be busy thrashing the hard drive for 20 to 30 seconds on high throughput hard drives. This gives the OS not enough time to process to boot up in a short amount of time. If a netbook has Windows 7 installed it will take longer than what the graph shows. It will take about 3 minutes for a netbook using flash memory as its storage to boot up Windows 7.

If you care for power consumption or battery usage, the hard drive should thrash less and not more. If the hard drive is busy it uses more power compared to idle, so it is better to use an operating system that does not have to use the hard drive a lot during boot up or during using the OS.

MAC OS X wins for the best operating system that is efficient compared to Windows 7 bought at Microsoft's store.




By SilthDraeth on 10/31/2009 10:17:53 PM , Rating: 2
You are so full of crap it is spilling out of your mouth, and on to your keyboard.


By jRaskell on 11/2/2009 10:32:32 AM , Rating: 2
A very large portion of that 800mb footprint is just empty 'scratch pad' for the OS. It isn't actually loading 800mb of data into all that memory. It is just pre-allocated for specific Windows features (Superfetch in particular) and to further minimize memory fragmentation problems.

disable Superfetch alone, and you'll see that footprint cut in half. However, doing so won't actually improve the performance of the PC. In fact, it'll likely hamper it. (And Superfetch has zero impact on boot time).


By Cheesew1z69 on 11/2/2009 12:36:11 PM , Rating: 2
Ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....right....


Learn
By Lyptiik on 10/30/2009 7:34:32 PM , Rating: 2
Learn to use a computer.

At least read the instruction manual.




RE: Learn
By Makaveli on 10/30/2009 8:10:21 PM , Rating: 2
Only problem is like cars most people don't care how they work only as long as it runs.

Don't hate on noobs too much they keep the support industry employed =)


RE: Learn
By Alexstarfire on 10/31/2009 12:39:16 AM , Rating: 1
Yes, you can thank all the morons for the massive outsourcing of technical support. Congrats morons, you screwed us all.

/sorta sarcasm


When will the madness end?
By miteethor on 10/30/2009 2:41:32 PM , Rating: 2
I just built a Sony laptop for one of my clients - it's insane the amount of worthless software they pre-load. This laptop must have had 25+ things set to auto-start on bootup. Of course then I get complaints that this brand-new laptop is slow and it's no wonder why. I had to go back and cut it down to about 5 apps and what a world of difference it made.




RE: When will the madness end?
By Davelo on 10/30/2009 4:21:03 PM , Rating: 2
Who the h in their right mind would buy a Sony computer? Sony TV maybe but not a computer.


Simple Solution ...
By DatabaseMX on 10/30/2009 4:13:09 PM , Rating: 2
1) Uninstallthe crapware, which are mainly 'lite' useless versions of whatever
2) Uninstall the crapware -opps, already said that.

3) Uninstall the crapware - ok, one more time for clarity.

4) Get the Ultimate Troubleshooter:
http://www.answersthatwork.com/TUT_pages/TUT_infor...

... to clean up the residule mess. This is a super outstanding program I've been using for years ... and it's database is updated frequently.

5) Get a Fujitsu from The Notebook Shop if you live in So Cal.

mx




RE: Simple Solution ...
By wardww on 10/30/2009 4:50:17 PM , Rating: 2
But when removing crapware, you know as well as I do that many times the install/remove fails to remove registry entries and other files nested deep in the OS, and even though the visible part of the crapware has been removed it does not necessarily solve all the issues.
Most users would have no idea how to clean the registry or find all the "hidden" stuff. It's nearly like they are playing with us by challenging us to "find" it all. Nope, for me it's a format and reinstall with a clean vanilla OS.


Hate em
By akse on 10/31/2009 4:06:19 AM , Rating: 2
God damn I hate all the crap that the computers install on first boot. It is so useless

Here a fancy battery life software! You can't manage without it.. windows don't.. or wait it does have the same!




RE: Hate em
By Gyres01 on 11/2/2009 11:53:32 AM , Rating: 2
True that...When I bought my Viao and couple years ago, I had to delete BS games demos, a couple different trials of anti-virus, movies trailers, 2 out of 3 different CD burner software and a couple more junk programs to finally get performance and boot times acceptable......Stupid bloatware!


Crapware is a mess
By tech329 on 10/31/2009 3:52:15 PM , Rating: 2
I had a chance to spend a couple of hours with a brand new HP notebook with W7 Premium. It was a complete mess with all the HP junk and crapware. The person who bought it has no idea. The first thing I would do with one of these is a wipe and reinstall. It's the only sensible alternative. You can reinstall faster than you can clean up the mess.




RE: Crapware is a mess
By ATC on 11/1/2009 12:33:01 AM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately, most consumers only get a recovery disk which puts everything back on. Essentially consumers don't get the option to do a clean install. That's the whole problem.


Shhhhhh people...
By jabber on 11/1/2009 6:53:08 AM , Rating: 2
....I make a good proportion of my income from uninstalling all this crap from customers PCs after they have bought them.

It's a growth industry.

A big thank you to Norton in particular with their awful buggy security suites that Joe Average hasnt a clue how to remove.




RE: Shhhhhh people...
By jabber on 11/1/2009 6:56:38 AM , Rating: 2
Oh yes and also HP. Well done guys. I love how back in the early 90's all you needed to get one of your printers working with a PC was a 200Kb driver.

Now for some reason you feel the user requires 9 different apps, 8 of which have nothing to do with printing and all require internet access, pester the user and take up around 200MB of HDD space.

Super job.


booting time
By xrodney on 11/2/2009 10:29:01 AM , Rating: 2
Booting over 3 minutes would make me throw that out of window.
I am using Windows 7 professional and running in from SSD and boot time is more like 15 seconds.




RE: booting time
By SpaceJumper on 11/2/2009 8:42:49 PM , Rating: 2
I am using both Mac and Windows 7. I am using my netbook with XP now because I find it faster than Mac. I have to agree with you that Windows 7 is about 15 seconds boot time with fresh Windows. Mac is not actually that fast. Mac commercial is actually bloated. I do like Mac commercials because they are funny.


Bloatware
By wardww on 10/30/2009 3:32:56 PM , Rating: 3
The other issue here is that if you need to reload the OS for some reason, that nasty Windows restore CD/DVD that comes with the PC/laptop puts it all back on again. I am an Aussie translator who lives in Brazil and I need an English language OS for my work. I bought a Dell Vostro last year with XP pre-loaded (I refuse to use Vista) and the first thing I did was format the HD, delete Dell's hidden partition and load a fresh English version of the OS. I am Pi$$ed because I figure that if I buy a machine even with the OEM version loaded, I should have the right to a vanilla copy of the OS and not the bloatware version.




Don't Uninstall, Reinstall!!!
By dijuremo on 10/30/2009 4:57:52 PM , Rating: 2
I know this is not for the average Joe, but the best thing you can do is not uninstall all the crapware, that is usually more time consuming and in some instances harder than simply popping in the OS cd and installing the machine fresh. By installing I do not mean restoring from the recovery disc.

Make sure to get or request the windows installation disk from the manufacturer (not their stupid restore images loaded with crapware) then install the machine only with the software you want to use.




By Alexstarfire on 10/31/2009 12:41:08 AM , Rating: 1
Or you could just download a disc or borrow one from a friend and use your own serial to have a legit copy. Not sure if requesting one costs money though.


MSConfig anyone?
By Fox5 on 10/30/2009 5:42:37 PM , Rating: 1
I'm surprised no one's mentioned this, but what about just going to Start -> Run -> MSConfig. Disable nearly all the start up apps (except for the ones you want), and then go to services, hide all microsoft services, and then have a ball disabling all the services except the ones you absolutely want. Way quicker than uninstalling all the crap (who cares about a GB of space) and works just as well, sometimes better for the really stubborn programs.




RE: MSConfig anyone?
By jmurbank on 10/31/2009 6:37:42 PM , Rating: 2
Sure suggest msconfig but only if you know the consequences of using it. If you use msconfig to disable programs, you are placing your self in a two layer disable and enable setup. One is msconfig and other is Windows Services tools. It is best to use Windows Services to just disable services that you do not want to be running. Some services can be set to manual from automatic.

Following are more reasons why you should not use msconfig.

http://www.blackviper.com/AskBV/XP25.htm
http://www.blackviper.com/AskBV/Win7_01.htm


By Hudly on 10/30/2009 3:11:55 PM , Rating: 2
All the manufacturers listed are half and half with this issue. If you ever buy a computer from the Home and Home Office side, it comes with all this crap. HP and Acer are the worst offenders. However, HP, Dell, Toshiba, and others, when you get a computer from the business side, are quite clean.

I just got a new Dell Vostro 1520 with Windows 7 Ultimate 64 in yesterday, and there were 4 extra programs installed, and none of them running on startup. Dell Wireless Utility, Dell Backup and Restore, Norton Internet Security, and Roxio Disc Creator. It was shocking to see that little.

Windows 7 runs fabulously out of the box. Although it is a nice laptop...




Not only with the OS...
By Marlonsm on 10/30/2009 3:48:22 PM , Rating: 2
It also applies to other things, like drivers and software.
When was the last time you installed an HP printer, that comes with all that junkware slowing down the computer, or maybe some game from EA...

A couple of years ago, when I installed the driver for a Samsung cellphone (which couldn't connect to the PC without it) the driver came with it's own image viewer and "editor" and set it as default without prompting anything, so every time I clicked to open an image or a video it would try to open with their software, the worst part is that it failed to open.
Most people wouldn't know how to change the default program to open images and videos, so they would just say the computer is broken and call someone to fix it.




Simple Solution
By 2bdetermine on 10/30/2009 4:12:58 PM , Rating: 2
Useless software should come as a CD/DVD bundle format and let the buyer make their own decision.




...and the winner is...
By frobizzle on 10/30/2009 4:16:35 PM , Rating: 2
Sony! With the longest bootup time thanks to the mounds of crapware they put on their POS products!

Congratulations, Sony! Take this chintzy trophy (that strangely looks like a horse's ass) and put it up on the shelf next to your awards for exploding batteries and DRM plagued CDs!




Don't Uninstall, Reinstall!!!
By dijuremo on 10/30/2009 4:57:52 PM , Rating: 2
I know this is not for the average Joe, but the best thing you can do is not uninstall all the crapware, that is usually more time consuming and in some instances harder than simply popping in the OS cd and installing the machine fresh. By installing I do not mean restoring from the recovery disc.

Make sure to get or request the windows installation disk from the manufacturer (not their stupid restore images loaded with crapware) then install the machine only with the software you want to use.




It's a financial issue
By BlendMe on 10/30/2009 5:48:52 PM , Rating: 2
Many OEM load all that bloatware, because it helps then out financially (I'm looking at you Symantec). In addition you get a lot of OEM tool which replace standard windows component (like Wifi connection manager), don't offer any new features, eat up RAM, and slow down boot.

No wonder Sony offered "clean" PC's for an extra $50 http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/21/sony-hates-you-...
Yes, you pay more for less.




By ATC on 10/31/2009 12:02:36 AM , Rating: 2
I understand that preinstalled bloatware adds revenue to OEMs but do they really have to also put that bloatware on the recovery disk? Why not give consumers a proper/clean windows install disk for a change?




By Sunburn74 on 10/31/2009 1:12:15 AM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry is it really that hard to spend a couple hours removing all the silly games, ads, and dumb shopping links that new laptops come bundled with, especially when you spend hours shopping online, reading reviews, walking into stores and talking to clerks before the purchase?

I gotta say, I'm disappointed with Mac again. Essentially they are saying if you're too stupid (or lazy. Not really sure what Mac's angle is this time) to remove the bloatware that comes with your win7 laptop but want to spend your hard earned money, blindly trust us for we may just the computer for you.




Asus is a small vendor?
By SilthDraeth on 10/31/2009 1:42:04 AM , Rating: 2
Could of surprised me.

Asus is an ODM for Apple, IBM, HP, NEC, Sony etc. And was the, if not still the number one motherboard producer/seller for desktops in the world.




:(
By damianrobertjones on 10/31/2009 1:53:59 PM , Rating: 2
Even if the oems shipped with zero crap installed, people would then install

Google products
iTunes/Quciktime
4 different browsers
full printer suites full of crap

then stick in any cd that goes anywhere near them




Killing Bloatware
By nartex2 on 10/31/2009 3:24:35 PM , Rating: 2
PC Decrapifier is the first thing I run on a new machine. Free and it removes about 90% of the junk in one pass. Never had any problems with anything its done.




There are options
By AyashiKaibutsu on 11/2/2009 11:21:50 AM , Rating: 2
I grabbed a dell vostro about a year ago off their outlet website. The only difference between the vostro (business) and their normal laptop is the vostro has a strudier case and doesn't come loaded with bloatware.




By SpaceJumper on 11/2/2009 11:23:21 AM , Rating: 2
Comparing something to N/A. It is like dividing a number by zero.




Hardware upgrade
By davidgoscinny on 11/2/2009 12:15:14 PM , Rating: 2
It could be a way for OEMs to convince buyers that they need to upgraded the hardware (ram, cpu, hard drive) to get better performance.

Often times I have people asking me if it's possible to increase the memory on their system when removing some software would suffice to make it run that much faster.




Error in picture ?
By davidgoscinny on 11/2/2009 12:21:35 PM , Rating: 2
It says: "many Windows PCs are stuffed with and crippled by malware ".

I thought we were talking about crapware, not malware.




By invidious on 11/3/2009 10:20:51 AM , Rating: 2
Is green supposed to imply good? Because it doesnt always highlight the best cases. Also boot times are entirely subjective to the CPU. The signifigance of memory footprint is proportional to the total memory, likewise for HDD space. The benchmark scores appear to be an attempt at using ratios but typically one of the numbers in a ratio is 1. How is it that MAC is assumed to have no bloatware but then you say that its bloatware has a software value of moderate? Of course MACs come with some bloatware.

Sorry to ramble on but you deserve it for making us read that crap.

All of your data should have been listed as relative to avoid the lack of controlled experimentation. If your point is that the software slows the computer down, then why show absolute speeds/benchmarks? The % difference between bloated and non bloated is the relavent data point.




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