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The Toyota Camry has dethroned the Ford F-150 as the "Most American" car in Cars.com's annual American-Made Index.  (Source: Toyota)

To add insult to injury, Toyota was ruled the most "American" auto manufacturer, beating out Ford (2010 Ford F-150 SVT Raptor edition pictured).  (Source: The Torque Report)
Are you really buying American?

Many of us have seen a coworker, neighbor, or friend purchase and prominently display a "Buy American" bumper sticker on their domestic automobile.  However, in this changing global economy which has seen Toyota and Honda building new factories, design centers, and more in the U.S. and domestic automakers moving their production overseas, are "American" automobiles really that American anymore?

A Cars.com study compares the Ford F-150, a classic "American" vehicle, and the Toyota Camry in its annual American-Made Index and comes to a shocking conclusion -- the Japanese automobile has more American parts in it than the truck.  The study, in fact, finds Toyota Motor Corp. to be the most "American" company based on multiple factors.

The thorough study takes into account several critical factors including where the vehicles are assembled, their popularity based on sales volume, and the percentage of the parts made in the U.S. based on the cost or value of those parts.  After five years as the most "American" vehicle, the Ford F-150 truck was dethroned in a shocking upset by the Toyota Camry.

Toyota didn't stop there -- it picked up the sixth spot with its Sienna minivan, the seventh spot with its Tundra full-size pickup, and the tenth spot with its new Venza crossover.

Patrick Olsen, editor of Cars.com comments, "This year was unique for our index, to say the least.  The difficult sales environment and changes in cars' domestic-parts content -- both important factors in our index's equation -- played a huge role in how the rankings changed from last year."

While American manufacturers such as GM and Chrysler have slashed American jobs in mass layoffs as part of survival bids, Toyota and Honda have held the line, and in fact have created some new ones.  Toyota just resumed construction on a $1.3B USD Prius plant in Blue Springs, Mississippi.  The new plant will bring hundreds of jobs and will likely build the Matrix, Corolla, Tacoma truck, and possibly the Yaris, in addition to the Prius.

One thing worth noting is that the percentages were not based solely on the parts -- for example,
the Ford Taurus had the highest percentage of American parts, with 90 percent of the parts made in America.  Lows sales volumes of 2,000 units a month versus 25,000 Camrys a month relegated the Taurus to ninth on the list, though.  Of the American manufacturers, GM and Ford were the "most American".

Some representatives of the traditional domestic auto industry are taking offense at the study.  Jim Hall of 2953 Analytics of Birmingham, MI, a firm that works closely with GM, Chrysler and others, called the study "spurious".  Hall says that when it comes to the study calling Toyota "most American", in terms of validity ”It's like Michael Jackson saying he's the King of Pop."



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Fuzzy math??
By Marlin1975 on 7/7/2009 11:42:11 AM , Rating: 4
"One thing worth noting is that the percentages were not based solely on the parts -- for example, the Ford Taurus had the highest percentage of American parts, with 90 percent of the parts made in America. Lows sales volumes of 2,000 units a month versus 25,000 Camrys a month relegated the Taurus to ninth on the list, though."

So toyota is not the most american. Just their fuzzy math makes it seem that way.




RE: Fuzzy math??
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/7/2009 11:50:31 AM , Rating: 5
Although I understand where you are going with this, 25,000 Camrys at lets say 75% (the minimum qualifier for the study) vs 2,000 Tauruses at 90% would make for an overwhelming victory for the Camry as far as American parts/labor usage, right?

I mean, what good is an even 100% "domestic" car to the study if only a few are sold?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 11:52:45 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
I mean, what good is an even 100% "domestic" car to the study if only a few are sold?

I think the bigger and more important question is why are 100% American cars not able to sell as well? Legacy costs & Unions.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Hiawa23 on 7/7/2009 12:14:15 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I mean, what good is an even 100% "domestic" car to the study if only a few are sold?

I think the bigger and more important question is why are 100% American cars not able to sell as well? Legacy costs & Unions.


Exactly, plus there is this perception by many that these cars will last longer & cost much less to maintain, which is why I own a 1997 Honda Civic that runs as excellent with over 220, miles on it, & the same parts are in it that it shipped from the factory with. In 2006 I bought Mitsu Lancer Ralliart, so I will never buy a car based on whether it's American or not, only based on what I like & what's in my price range, but based on this article, it does have some merit to it.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By KC7SWH on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Iaiken on 7/7/2009 3:19:11 PM , Rating: 5
He most certainly meant 220,000 miles, but you can be as dense as you like... :D


RE: Fuzzy math??
By MrBlastman on 7/7/2009 1:27:33 PM , Rating: 5
Not to steal your thunder - I'll start by saying I too buy Japanese cars now after my last American car was a total lemon turd - but, Mitsubishi is bottom of the barrel when it comes to Japanese cars. My friends Lancer he bought back in 2003 has turned out to be a total POS with all sorts of problems. Hopefully yours turns out better.

My point is, just because it is Japanese doesn't give it the gold seal of approval. There are great Japanese Car manufacturers and there are also shoddy ones.

It can also be said that 50% of all statistics can be used to prove your point 90% of the time while only being 75% correct... I find the study interesting in regards to Toyota being number one but also find it a little deceptive considering (and I have not read the full study, am just going on what is posted in the article here) it factors in not only total americanized part/production percentage and applies a multiple associated with volume of sales to compute the aggregate averaged value.

At first I was like - wow! that makes sense, Toyota is more American due to parts/production but then after hearing the figure of 90% of a Taurus being American parts I was more like :-| to the figures. It is great the Japanese have moved more production and assembly stateside - the naysayers who only buy "American' F Yeah!" really are oblivious to the fact that some of these Japanese cars really are pretty "American" in their own right.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By gerf on 7/7/2009 8:26:46 PM , Rating: 5
Another problem is that machine suppliers for Japanese comapanies are all, get this, Japanese. All the management at the Japanese facilities are also Japanese. Parts suppliers for the Japanese companies, even ones made in the US, are also Japanese with Japanese machines and Japanese management.

So, in addition to the fuzzy math, we also have a level not yet fully explored in this report.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By gerf on 7/7/2009 8:31:12 PM , Rating: 5
In addition, I'd bet that the engineering for Japanese products is done in Japan, and Big 3 engineering is mostly American.

Production and assembly lines aren't the only way to judge what % American a vehicles is.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 7/8/2009 8:57:38 AM , Rating: 2
which is exactly why they are better cars.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By bldckstark on 7/13/2009 12:28:57 PM , Rating: 2
ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I work for a company that sells interior parts to just about every car manufacturer in the US.

I have been in several Japanese and Domestic car manufacturers plants. The top management personnel are Japanese in the Japanese plants, but everyone else is (basically) American. As a matter of fact, I have seen more foreign born salary workers in the domestic plants than the Japanese and Korean. The machines are from all over the place in both types of plants just like every factory (with exception of the German automakers who really do buy everything they can from the homeland). The majority of the design work for parts is done at the suppliers. The design work for the vehicle itself is done at the automaker.

The reason that Toyota is number one in this survey is that they try to have the closest, best priced manufacturer they can get to supply their parts, while Ford, GM, and Chrysler are busy outsourcing everything they can to other countries. The domestics are doing this to avoid union wages.

The study listed in the article takes the number of dollars spent per year in the US versus outside the US to determine who is the most "American". Basically they are talking dollar content. Let's say Ford spends $3500 on US content and labor to build a Taurus, and Toyota spends $3000 on a Camry. If Toyota sells 100 times as many cars, they spent more money in the US than Ford did. The more money you spend inside the US, the better, and therefore more "American", it is. Feel free to debate their definition of American.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By osalcido on 7/13/2009 7:50:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
All the management at the Japanese facilities are also Japanese.


Oh those poor American CEOs! Won't somebody please think of thej CEOs?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By hyvonen on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 1:40:05 PM , Rating: 5
I should buy American - and pay more money than what the competition costs because my neighbor believes that his union should live above the what the competitive wages are in that sector? No thanks.

Why should I sacrifice so he doesn't have to? Perhaps if the UAW wasn't so greedy, had competitive wages, the cars wouldn't have the added costs and therefore would be competitively priced or even cheaper than the competition, and all would be well.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By MrBlastman on 7/7/2009 1:46:53 PM , Rating: 2
70/k a year to sweep the floors... Need I say more?

Unions had their place in time and that time was 80 - 100 years ago. Nowadays they are leaches that sap the monetary life out of the money machine causing the gears to bang into each other.

I don't buy strictly Japanese to buy Japanese, I'm only buying it right now because of the quality that can be had with the particular Japanese brands (not all) that I choose to peruse. Quality and value first, locale of origin last.

I think it took the American Car Companies 20 years to somewhat figure this out... 20 years too long. American quality has increased substantially in the last ten years but it was too late to reverse the damage to their perceived brand image that had been done over the years.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By aju on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By itzmec on 7/7/2009 4:36:40 PM , Rating: 3
union workers cant afford to buy fords. thats news to me.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Keeir on 7/7/2009 5:02:21 PM , Rating: 5
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/12/fords-new-deal-...

While the UAW is not the devil, it did create the situation where the average "domestic" car company was paying compensation rates within the United States that were 40% higher than non-Union auto companies. Is it any wonder Toyota and Honda were willing to build thier cars here when they get such a great rate cut for a large chuck of the costs?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By MrBlastman on 7/7/2009 5:04:31 PM , Rating: 5
You really are brainwashed and oblivious aren't you?

Full disclosure: My grandfather was the head of a labor union in the 1950's/60's.

With that said, you'd think immediately that I would be a staunch supporter of these unions. How is it that I have formulated a bias against these current-day unions over time? I have the unique perspective of being able to see them for what they were and they are now.

I stand firm on my belief they held a legitimate purpose in the past - they did. Many years ago it was quite common for the worker to be exploited and used in quite despicable ways by their employers and companies. Over time, unions fought hard for workers rights and provisions - and eventually lead to many acts being passed which yielded protections and benefits you and I reap to this day in our various forms of occupation.

Believe it or not, the world was a far harsher place for the employee 50 - 100 years ago. I could probably write a book on all the dastardly things companies would do to their workers. Current day - companies do still screw over employees from time to time and abuse their powers - but these abuses are NOTHING like they used to be. We've got it easy now compared to back then.

However, there came a point where the unions began to ask for too much in return and created a dramatic burden on some of the companies they fought so hard to make improvements in. It is a well known fact that these unions have created a tremendous strain on the automakers. The benefits and pension plans that they provide have really sapped a great deal out these companies bottom lines as well as the rediculous employment/payroll requirements they have laid out.

Yes, bad management is also to blame. Yes, it was a poor decision by them for years to create crap cars with poor reliability - and - for a while, cars that had zero appeal to the buyers sensual tastes (read boring cars). Yes, this caused their sales to lag behind and allow the Japanese to come in and sell more cars.

The problem occured when those in managment started to get a clue and try to rectify the situation - but - lo and behold their hands were tied due to union agreements which gave the Japanese a competitive advantage over US Automakers because they could not compete with the same rulebook. The Japanese had one rulebook, the US Automakers had another that was one hundred times thicker with rules and red tape that they could not ignore.

The unions bled them dry and it was also the unions that REFUSED to make concessions in order to give these auto makers breathing room. To drive the point home, what would you say to this:

Imagine a company is losing money and they need to cut costs. They try to cut the costs but the rulebook says they are not allowed to cut the costs. If the company doesn't cut the costs they will go out of business. The employees, however, think they are being exploited if the costs are cut and refuse to agree to it. Ultimately, this means the employees lose their jobs.

Who is to blame? The executives who are trying to cut the costs or the asinine employees and unions who are refusing to make concessions thereby causing their own jobs to be rendered useless? Who is going to pay them now?

It is extremely unfair for you to just sit back and blame it all on the executives and the companies themselves when the unions and employees did not have the foresight to see that they were firing themselves by refusing to help bail the water out of the sinking ship. If you see your house on fire, do you help put it out or do you stand on the sidelines and do nothing. If you do nothing, it is gone, if you do something it might still be there. The employees and unions did nothing and now they are upset? Please. That is not how it works.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By aju on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Boze on 7/7/2009 7:00:35 PM , Rating: 5
Don't criticize the private jets... those are also tons of American jobs that are being hit hardest by the sorry ass media's attempt to villianize luxury goods.

The private aircraft industy is almost exclusively American:

Gulfstream - American
Cessna - American
Cirrus Design - American

and those are just the three on the top of my head.

I'm getting sick of hearing about Joe the Plumber whine his lazy ass off about private jets, the ones that Rob the American Aerospace Engineer is designing and Dan the Mechanic is servicing.

Its a travesty of American crybaby-gotta-blame-someone media that these companies and their American employees are going out of business and being laid off, respectively.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By LoweredExpectations on 7/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By KillerInTheRye on 7/8/2009 11:05:30 AM , Rating: 5
Genius is spelled with an "I" in it.

Here is the problem with society that is so evident in your post. You stated that,
quote:
now husband and wife both have to work as much overtime as they can get just to pay off the credit card bills

How untrue is that? I make a little over 30k a year at a white collar job. My wife does not work, and thanks to great budgeting my family lives very comfortably. Are you suggesting Union workers can not do the same on what they are paid? Or are they forced to buy this unnecessary stuff you mentioned because they are Union?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/8/2009 3:10:32 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
My wife does not work, and thanks to great budgeting my family lives very comfortably.
I have to agree with this statement. Especially in the US, one does not need to make a lot of money to have a decent lifestyle if you live in certain locations and manage your money well. There are areas of the country where 30k a year won't cut it but there are plenty of others where that's enough to live well.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By the3monkies on 7/8/2009 7:52:17 PM , Rating: 2
Try to live in Seattle on 30K where the rents on a very modest home run 2000/mth. My salary is 55K, and with the rent, medical expenses, and two kids, the wife has no choice buy to work, and even then we can't put enough aside to buy our own place.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By JustAClone on 7/10/2009 11:33:09 PM , Rating: 2
Oh dude, there's NO WAY I could support my family of 5 on 30K a mth! Even with the wife working, we still have to pinch every penny.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By JustAClone on 7/11/2009 10:29:13 AM , Rating: 2
Naturally, I meant 30K/yr. Just thought I'd correct the obvious error before someone made a snide remark.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By GaryJohnson on 7/7/2009 3:21:23 PM , Rating: 1
Or you could buy foreign and just give the left over money to your neighbor :/


RE: Fuzzy math??
By catavalon21 on 7/7/2009 5:33:21 PM , Rating: 2
Hmm...my Toyota Sequoia was assembled in the U.S., while my Ford Crown Victoria was not - which one are you arguing is "American" so my "neighbor doesn't lose his/her job"?

In my opinion, the underlying issue is that it's far from as clear as it perhaps once was to really label a car "foreign" or "domestic".


RE: Fuzzy math??
By petrosy on 7/7/2009 8:32:15 PM , Rating: 5
I bet the BUY AMERICAN sticker is made in China. Japanese cars are great!


RE: Fuzzy math??
By gerf on 7/7/2009 8:33:42 PM , Rating: 4
What about total labor behind each one? Engineers, management, machine suppliers, part suppliers... There's more than just final assembly in the making of a car you know.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Pudro on 7/8/2009 6:58:19 AM , Rating: 2
If I want to help my neighbors (and myself) keep a job, I'll buy a Honda. Because they are the ones employing me (indirectly) and my neighbors in central Ohio.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/8/2009 8:28:46 AM , Rating: 2
I live in Columbus, OH and in 2007 I bought an 07 Honda Accord 2dr V6 that was built/assembled in Marysville plant, just outside Columbus. What really irked me though was that I still had to pay the $800 destination charge for them to deliver the car to the dealership right across the street from the plant!


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 7/8/2009 9:01:14 AM , Rating: 1
That's not how economics works. No other country in the world buys American since the cars are crap. There are some good selling Fords in Europe, for example, but they are designed and built in Europe, and are not for sale in the US. Ironically, the US auto makers are IMPORTING their European designed and built cars to save their cans in the US. So you see, economically speaking, perhaps it is time to get out of car production, and move into something we're good at. That is how markets work. I am not going to buy a POS that my neighbor made just so he can keep his union job.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/8/2009 9:28:11 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
No other country in the world buys American since the cars are crap.

Not exactly true. In some places, the cost of an American car due to the American labor is just too expensive for them to buy. In others, for example China, look how expensive a Buick is there as opposed to here. China forces the prices of our products to be artificially high so their own products sell first - something our leaders refuse to do, all while our trade deficits are out of control. You really need to look at the big picture - if wages are so much less in another country, they won't be able to purchase an American made car, but rather a car produced in that country owned by an American company. That's the only way to stay competitive. Other countries don't worry about that when sending things to the US - since we're the most wealthy country in the world.
quote:
Ironically, the US auto makers are IMPORTING their European designed and built cars to save their cans in the US.

They are doing this because the cost of labor in the US due to the unions has destroyed any potential profit margin because it makes the prices of the cars so high, that their sales numbers are less and less.
quote:
perhaps it is time to get out of car production, and move into something we're good at.

You seem to forget that we can be the masters of mass production - but its not the company who is forcing the products to sacrifice quality. Its the governments EPA, Taxation, and other forms of regulations that hinder our business and increase costs to the point that we have to cut corners to keep the prices down - else the products wont sell and companies will go out of business. If you want to blame anyone - look at the ROOT of the problem - social engineering dreamers in Washington who believe everyone should live by the personal beliefs of someone in government.
quote:
I am not going to buy a POS that my neighbor made just so he can keep his union job.

Agreed. Unions are destroying the the needed manual labor jobs in the country. They are their own worst enemy, trying to playoff that they aren't greedy - but expect companies to operate not for profit, but for the union wishes.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By jconan on 7/13/2009 4:27:12 PM , Rating: 2
"You seem to forget that we can be the masters of mass production - but its not the company who is forcing the products to sacrifice quality. Its the governments EPA, Taxation, and other forms of regulations that hinder our business and increase costs to the point that we have to cut corners to keep the prices down"

Cutting corners doesn't quite instill consumer confidence.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By joemoedee on 7/7/2009 1:33:09 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I think the bigger and more important question is why are 100% American cars not able to sell as well? Legacy costs & Unions.


Eh, I don't think as much. Why? The price of the American car is typically in line, if not less expensive, than its Japanese equivalent.

The problem is the cars themselves, at least from a historical perspective. There has been leaps and bounds made in quality of GM/Ford/Chrysler, but that doesn't erase the years that the Japanese just made the better car.

Go back to say, 1993. Compare a Civic to a Cavalier. The Civic wins hands down. Quality and reliability were better, as well as resale value. Is the chasm that large between a Civic and say, a Cobalt or Focus today? No. But back then... yes. People haven't forgotten.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By chick0n on 7/7/2009 2:29:32 PM , Rating: 1
But remember this

Ok, Lets just say, here are 2 cars in the 30,000 MSRP range. One Japanese, one American. Both made in USA.

but if UAW doesnt exist. the same American Made might be able to do a MSRP of 25,000 or less.

Here is another problem, Lets just say it cost 20,000 for the Japanese to make its Car, they can spend an "extra" 2000 dollars into manufacturing to "further" improve the quality of its parts. Which makes them look even better than the American made one.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By thurston on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Tsuwamono on 7/8/2009 12:37:49 AM , Rating: 5
thats why there is government regulation. this isn't the 1920s buddy. We don't need unions now that we have workers rights laws.

Welcome to the 21st century.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By thurston on 7/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Kaleid on 7/11/2009 6:33:07 AM , Rating: 2
Well, its not quite that simply is it? Gov can easily be purchased by the moneyed classes and this certainly seem to be true in USA. Their lobbying power is tremendously strong.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By jeff834 on 7/8/2009 12:42:41 AM , Rating: 4
That's very gung ho of you, but your logic is flawed. While I will agree many years ago, mostly in my grandfather and great grandfather's time, many people fought for worker's rights and helped secure better working conditions for everyone, what have union workers done for me in the last 50 years? If unions ceased to exist tomorrow my life would be the same, it may even have a couple positive effects. Of course no one could really predict what that would do 20 years from now.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By SublimeSimplicity on 7/7/2009 12:41:49 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Although I understand where you are going with this, 25,000 Camrys at lets say 75% (the minimum qualifier for the study) vs 2,000 Tauruses at 90% would make for an overwhelming victory for the Camry as far as American parts/labor usage, right?


But if you want to "Buy American" like the bumper sticker says, the Taurus is the way to do that. If on the other hand you to name which car is most valuable to the US economy, Cars.com math holds and the Camry is the winner.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Keeir on 7/7/2009 1:14:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If on the other hand you to name which car is most valuable to the US economy, Cars.com math holds and the Camry is the winner.


Yep, definately agree. Cars.com missed the boat by including the sales numbers. However, they are also fair in thier assesment that Toyota is nearly buying American. 4/10 of the Most US parts and Assembled in the US are Toyota.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By elgueroloco on 7/8/2009 10:03:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If on the other hand you to name which car is most valuable to the US economy, Cars.com math holds and the Camry is the winner.


Yes, but that is only because of its current sales numbers. I would bet that with 90% American parts, the Taurus holds the most potential value to the US economy. i.e. If as many people bought a Taurus as buy Camries (sp?), the Taurus would be contributing more to the US economy than the Camry.

That being said, I'm still happy with my Toyota Corolla. It was built 20 minutes' drive from my house in CA, and is better than any Ford I've ever driven.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By adiposity on 7/7/2009 1:11:33 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I mean, what good is an even 100% "domestic" car to the study if only a few are sold?


I think you are missing the point of the "buy American" mindset. If you go buy one, then you help solve this problem! It doesn't make sense to argue "the car is not very American if it doesn't sell" as a reason not to buy. Although, if the car is a piece of junk, I see your point.

What good is a 100% American car, if it sucks?

-Dan


RE: Fuzzy math??
By MrWho on 7/7/2009 4:26:15 PM , Rating: 2
The car breaks sooner, so you buy another one and then another and another - adding more to the pile of american cars bought.

And thus the american economy is saved!


RE: Fuzzy math??
By adiposity on 7/7/2009 5:41:29 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I mean, what good is an even 100% "domestic" car to the study if only a few are sold?


Sorry, missed the part about "to the study." If the study is measuring "how american" it is to buy a certain car, then it matters. If the study is measuring "how much a car helps the american economy," then it doesn't. But it still makes sense that a "more american" car would be a better purchase for giving money back to the US.

-Dan


RE: Fuzzy math??
By omnicronx on 7/13/2009 11:48:16 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What good is a 100% American car, if it sucks?
Problem is, this is pretty much untrue, in fact most people have no idea how much better American cars are than 5-6 years ago... People believe what they want to believe, US cars these days are not bad cars, its just incredibly hard to shake the bad taste that the late 80's and 90's left in our mouths.

Whats worse is people seem to think they know what they are talking about when they obviously do not (on both sides). My friend was knocking my protege yesterday when I pointed out that he owned a Ford focus Zx3. He did not believe me that my Mazda used a large percentage of Ford parts and vice versa due to the agreements between the two companies and actually shared many of the same parts between these two particular models. I happened to be replacing my front speakers at the time and low and behold, they were stock ford speakers.

I would bet a large sum of money that given the choice between a Mazda 3 and a Ford Focus, many would assume that the Mazda will last longer, without ever knowing that they are on the same platform and use almost the same engine. As I said, the stigma that imports are better than American vehicles is the biggest problem, and will probably take years to correct.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By clovell on 7/7/2009 4:27:19 PM , Rating: 5
Huh? This crap may be important to you contrarians who like to win arguements, but to people who actually want to buy American, the Taurus is 'More American', and supporting it only makes it moreso.

If I sold 20 million Vespas in the US each year with only 30% of the parts and labor happening in the US, would you call that more American? No. /"article".


RE: Fuzzy math??
By powerincarnate on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Samus on 7/7/2009 6:36:50 PM , Rating: 3
It's ridiculous to consider it non-American of Ford and GM to use parts manufactured in Mexico and Canada. The ONLY reason Ford went to Mexico to assemble the Focus and Fusion is because the profit margins of these vehicles are razor-thin, and building them within the USA would be financial suicide (ala Unions) so what they're trying to say is...

IT'S AMERICAN TO GO BANKRUPT.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By jconan on 7/13/2009 4:32:38 PM , Rating: 2
u may have a point there, since Mexico and Canada are part of the North American continent when it's made in America.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 11:49:57 AM , Rating: 3
Exactly. The Toyota is not a more American car. If the Camry had 20% American Parts and the Taurus had 90% American parts, this study would still say the Camry is more American because the total number of American parts in circulation is higher.

For example, this would be how they conduct their numbers to see who is most American...

Toyota 2/10*25000 = 5000 parts
Ford 9/10*2000 = 1800 parts

So Toyota wins?

Its a bunk study, and not sure why anyone would even try to pass this off as legit.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 11:55:47 AM , Rating: 5
It doesn't matter what the content requirements are. This is a pure report based on sales statistics and nothing else.

75% of 25000 is still greater than 100% of 2000, if the Taurus was 100% American parts.

So the only thing bogus here is the report itself. It would be more factual if they were saying that Toyota provides more total American parts into circulation due to sales volume - not that Toyota is more American.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By npoe1 on 7/7/2009 12:38:58 PM , Rating: 5
I agree with you. There was an episode in "Invader Zim" in which there was to going be a medical check up and Zim was afraid of being discovered that he is an alien. He started to steal human organs and ended with 5 times more human organs in his body than regular human beings, alleging that he was 500% human neglecting he is an alien; that based on the amount of human organs on his body.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By gucio69 on 7/7/2009 12:58:34 PM , Rating: 5
That is the weirdest (and yet strangely relevant) comparison that I have ever read on here.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By NEOCortex on 7/7/2009 1:40:16 PM , Rating: 3
I forgot how great a show Invader Zim was....


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Bainne on 7/7/2009 12:49:49 PM , Rating: 5
I don't think thats quite how the math works.

You also forget, that 25,000 cars vs 2,000 requires requires FAR more labour. Arguably 12.5X more labour which equals more USA labour for both parts and the car itself.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By omnicronx on 7/13/2009 10:52:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't think thats quite how the math works.
Funny you mention this, considering your statement makes it out as though ratios mean nothing. All American auto manufacturers use more American parts per ca pita than Toyota Period! Thus Toyota's statement of their car's being more American is completely incorrect, regardless of the numbers they are throwing around.
quote:
You also forget, that 25,000 cars vs 2,000 requires requires FAR more labour. Arguably 12.5X more labour which equals more USA labour for both parts and the car itself.
Furthermore GM which is still very close to Toyota in the US in terms of sales surely has more total impact than toyota when taking the total workforce into consideration. Including indirect labor from using more American parts, they are probably still more 'American' than Toyota even using your/their logic.

Using this logic a large volume foreign company that only uses 1% American parts could be considered 'More American' than a company in a small US town using 100% parts. This is why ratios are very important in this case, throwing them out the window and saying they are irrelevant makes absolutely no sense at all.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By adiposity on 7/7/2009 1:07:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It doesn't matter what the content requirements are.


Yes, it does matter, because you suggested that Toyota would win even if they only had 20% american parts. But the study deliberately disqualifies any vehicle that has less than 75% "American" parts, presumably because any such vehicle is too "foreign" in components to be seriously considered.

quote:
This is a pure report based on sales statistics and nothing else.


Wrong again. The article states:

quote:
Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts are made and whether the car is assembled in the U.S.


If the car contains less than 75% American parts, it can not even be considered. If the car is not manufactured in the US, it loses points. So no, it is not only sales that matters.

Frankly, the whole idea is stupid. There is no way to measure if a car is more "American" since "American made" doesn't really exist anymore. All companies have global dealings now, and have a set of compromises between parts and labor from different countries. It is essentially impossible to build anything without using foreign parts or labor in one way or another. So the only thing we are measuring here, is an arbitrary set of criteria weighed against each other in an unknown ratio, for a meaningless conclusion: who is more "American."

If Americans are manufacturing Toyota cars, the parts are 80% "American," and they sell 25,000 cars per month to Americans, maybe we can stop pretending we are selling out our country to buy one? Perhaps that is the idea that gets people so mad.

-Dan


RE: Fuzzy math??
By bhieb on 7/7/2009 2:46:36 PM , Rating: 4
Profit margin (the money that goes directly out of the US) is the only factor I see missing from this report, and to me is what "Buy American" is about.

Not about the % of parts a car has that is American, but more importantly where the profit goes. Toyota is making money on each car so as are the dealers.

Generally speaking MSRP has about 25-30% play in it for the dealer. So assuming he is taking 30% and Toyota needs some too lets just say another 30% (cuz I doubt the dealer makes more per car than Toyota). So now 60% (guessing here probably not that high but not 0% either) of the MSRP is now leaving the country. Sure 75% of the 40% left that is actual cost of the parts is staying here, but the rest is going back to Japan.

To me that is the major flaw of the "study", that 60% or so of the car is completely ignored. Most likely because it scales the opposite way with higher sales numbers, and that does not fit the agenda of the article. Because of the higher sales numbers the actual amount of money being sent out of the country would make Toyota look really bad. If you only look at parts used in manufacturing, it looks like an American hero.

Knowing that on average 30% of a car is markup to the dealer and there is more mark up to the manufacutre so they make money too


RE: Fuzzy math??
By noirsoft on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By noirsoft on 7/8/2009 3:44:53 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Generally speaking MSRP has about 25-30% play in it for the dealer. So assuming he is taking 30% and Toyota needs some too lets just say another 30% (cuz I doubt the dealer makes more per car than Toyota). So now 60% (guessing here probably not that high but not 0% either) of the MSRP is now leaving the country.


He did say that the dealer's cut (30% by his estimate) is leaving the country. That's what I was replying to.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/8/2009 3:27:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
He did say that the dealer's cut (30% by his estimate) is leaving the country. That's what I was replying to.
Gotcha. Thanks.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By bldckstark on 7/13/2009 12:54:59 PM , Rating: 2
The "profits go overseas" argument doesn't work for publicly traded companies.

Anyone can own the stock, and spend the "gains" wherever they want. If you want Japanese profits to stay in the US, buy more Toyota stock. Japanese investors owned a huge chunk of GM stock in the 80's. They took all the gains (from the past) and spent it in Japan, so I guess GM is foreign too.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By blwest on 7/7/2009 10:13:38 PM , Rating: 3
Actually 75% of 25,000 is 18,750. Last time I checked 100% of 2,000 is still 2,000 which is less than 18,750. Grade-school math and Americans don't get it. Maybe that's why our economy is in a slump.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By omnicronx on 7/13/2009 11:29:11 AM , Rating: 2
Last time I checked 90% is still larger than 75%, no ratios or sales numbers are going to change this. Volume is only a tiny piece of the puzzle and has absolutely no baring on the statement of being 'more American'. Saying a product is more American implies that a single product contains more American parts, a statement which proves to be completely untrue. Using Toyota's logic, GM could be more Chinese than many of the smaller Chinese manufacturers, as they sell more vehicles in volume (assuming they use chinese parts).

Furthermore Toyota has not been the #1 in share in the US for a while now (GM holds the #1 spot), in fact they have been number 3 in sales for the last three months putting them behind GM and Ford. So essentially in order for Toyota to come up with these numbers, they had to compare each individual vehicle's sales until they found a ratio that was well suited for their comment. In total GM is still more 'American' than Toyota even by their crazy standards. GM still sells more vehicles, uses more American parts and has a greater indirect impact by using these American parts than Toyota.

A statement like this is insulting to the people of the United States, and it is a sad day if you actually agree with them and their obviously skewed numbers.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By The0ne on 7/7/2009 12:03:18 PM , Rating: 4
More American because of parts? O.o Who in their right mind(s) would even consider such a thing. That's like saying we're MORE Chinese because lets face it we have MANY Chinese products at home.

This analysis is so insulting it's not even funny. Seriously, more American because I have more parts? This is crazy talk.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By jimbojimbo on 7/7/2009 2:31:27 PM , Rating: 2
China does pretty much own us so there's validity in your statement.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/7/2009 2:55:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
China does pretty much own us so there's validity in your statement.
Yours sure isn't. Out of all of our debt, 25% is foreign owned. Out of that 25% slice, China owns 24% of that. Hardly, what I would call owning us. BTW, Japan owns 20% of that. Do they own us too?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By itzmec on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By adiposity on 7/7/2009 5:33:32 PM , Rating: 3
Because 24% of 25% is 6%, and 20% of 25% is 5%.

He didn't say 24% is China owned, he said 24% of the foreign debt (which totals 25%) is China owned, meaning they own 6% of our foreign debt, and Japan owns 5%.

After 24% of the 25%, there is still 76% of the 25% left...

-Dan


RE: Fuzzy math??
By TSS on 7/8/2009 9:31:32 AM , Rating: 2
do the math all you like, who owns what doesn't become appearant untill it's time to actually pay off your debt.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/7/2009 5:39:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
how can japan own 20% of 25%, when you just said china owns 24% of the 25% slice.
I guess math isn't your forte. I'll give you a made up example:

Total debt = 5 billion
Total foreign debt (25% of total debt) = 1.25 billion
China's part (24% of the total foreign debt) = 300 million
Japan's part (20% of the total foreign debt) = 250 million

There are other countries that own particular percentages of the foreign debt but China and Japan are the largest owners of that debt (combined 44% of foreign owned debt).


RE: Fuzzy math??
By The0ne on 7/7/2009 4:50:04 PM , Rating: 2
While that statement may be true, "owning" and "more of (being)" are entirely different.

Me: being "more" Chinese
You: Chinese own us

Totally different >.>


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Fireshade on 7/7/2009 12:39:14 PM , Rating: 2
Odd title indeed.
They should have titled the report "Toyota sells the most American parts"
The title would still sound odd, but it'd be closer to the study's conclusion :)


RE: Fuzzy math??
By npoe1 on 7/7/2009 12:43:27 PM , Rating: 2
Also, what if Ford sells 25,000 Taurus at month in another country? Toyota is still more American than Ford. The study doesn’t count sales outside the USA.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Motley on 7/7/2009 7:11:21 PM , Rating: 2
Of course on the flip side, using the exact same (flawed) math:
Toyota 2/10*25000 = 5000 parts
Ford 9/10*2000 = 1800 parts

Assuming each "part" was $1000, then the Toyota has contributed more to the American economy than the Ford has.

But if both companies were failing, which would you save in order to help the American economy the most? Toyota that pours $5 billion into the economy or Ford that pours $1.8? The study is useful, but you need to understand it so it can be applied correctly.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Marlin1975 on 7/7/2009 11:51:33 AM , Rating: 5
"Consider that among the 34 2009-model-year cars that NHTSA lists as having U.S./Canadian parts content of 75 percent or higher, 19 of them are GMs. Why didn't The General have a better showing? Declining sales — plus a number of those cars heading for extinction — took a major toll."

Seems this "study" had its results before it even started. They just needed to come up with the fuzzy math to get to them.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By 67STANG on 7/7/2009 12:40:42 PM , Rating: 2
What about this fact:

Toyota Headquarters: Toyota City, Japan
Ford Headquarters: Dearborn, Michigan, United States
GM Headquarters: Detroit, Michigan, United States

Parts and sales volumes aside. A Toyota cannot, by definition, be "more American" than Ford or GM. It's not an American company. Period.

You can build a Ferarri in the United States with 75% American parts. The car was still designed and engineered in Italy, which is where the check is ultimately going to go.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By walk2k on 7/7/2009 12:51:36 PM , Rating: 5
Update:

GM Headquarters: Washington D.C.
lol

Anyway, the point is, Toyota and others employ thousands of American workers, they build cars in America with American-made parts. You can cry about where the "profits" go (as if Ford/GM make profits) but the taxes are paid here, and some like Honda and Toyota are freely traded on the NYSE so any American investor is free to reap the profits.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By randomposter on 7/7/2009 1:01:31 PM , Rating: 2
And as an investor, you'd be a hell of a lot better off if you bought 1000 shares in Toyota 10 years ago than 1000 shares in GM.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/7/2009 1:19:01 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
And as an investor, you'd be a hell of a lot better off if you bought 1000 shares in Toyota 10 years ago than 1000 shares in GM.
Yes because it's better to lose less than lose more.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By walk2k on 7/7/2009 1:40:07 PM , Rating: 3
Uh, what?

10 years ago (Jul 02 1999):
Toyota Motors (TM): 66.26
General Motors (GM): 68.62

Today:
TM: 74.75 (+8.59)
GM: 0.64 (lol)


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/7/2009 3:04:59 PM , Rating: 1
Today:
TM: 74.75 (+8.59)
GM: 0.64 (lol)

TM was 93.17 a year ago. (-18.42). A loss is still a loss.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By walk2k on 7/7/2009 7:26:21 PM , Rating: 2
Wait, you changed to 1 year now? We were talking about 10 years. Slight difference there... but ok, let's talk about 1 year.

TM 1 year ago: 93.17
Today: 74.45 (-20.1%)

GM 1 year ago: 10.24
Today: 0.67 (-93.5%) lol

Uh, yeah... a 20% loss is not "still" a nearly 100% loss.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By walk2k on 7/7/2009 1:24:15 PM , Rating: 4
If you had bought 1000 cases of beer, drank it all, and took the bottles back to the store for the recycling credit you'd be better off than if you had bought 1000 shares of GM.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Suntan on 7/7/2009 4:34:14 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
And as an investor, you'd be a hell of a lot better off if you bought 1000 shares in Toyota 10 years ago than 1000 shares in GM.


When you add in the fact that GM routinely offered dividends 3 to 4x bigger then Toyota’s dividends over that time period, no you wouldn’t.

-Suntan


RE: Fuzzy math??
By walk2k on 7/7/2009 7:44:06 PM , Rating: 2
Lol.. no.

If you bought 1000 shares of GM 10 years ago, including dividends over those 10 years you lost about $47,000.

If you bought 1000 shares of TM 10 years ago you'd have made about $8,200, not even including the dividends.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By adiposity on 7/7/2009 1:25:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Parts and sales volumes aside. A Toyota cannot, by definition, be "more American" than Ford or GM. It's not an American company. Period.


According to the criteria you have selected, you are right. But that is not the only possible criteria, obviously. And frankly, it's a little short-sighted to ignore all the profits and wages paid to Americans for parts and labor, isn't it?

quote:
You can build a Ferarri in the United States with 75% American parts. The car was still designed and engineered in Italy, which is where the check is ultimately going to go.


No, the check is ultimately going to go to pay for the 75% in parts, to the Americans who built the car, to the designers and engineers in Italy (and wherever else they might live), to the US govt (taxes at various stages), to the dealership's American owner, and finally, to Ferrari (profit).

Is it really rational to base the decision of whether something is "American" (ironically, a term derived from the name of an Italian) on where the profits go? It's not like those profits benefit most Americans, anyway. The important thing is whether those profits are invested back in the US economy, which in most of the car manufacturers cases, they are. And the US car manufacturers lately haven't made any profit to reinvest anyway.

-Dan


RE: Fuzzy math??
By 67STANG on 7/7/2009 2:24:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
According to the criteria you have selected, you are right. But that is not the only possible criteria, obviously. And frankly, it's a little short-sighted to ignore all the profits and wages paid to Americans for parts and labor, isn't it?

As short-sighted as saying a Japanese car, designed and engineered by a Japanese company that happens to use American made parts (also most likely designed and engineered in Japan) makes a "more American" car than an American car company?

quote:
No, the check is ultimately going to go to pay for the 75% in parts, to the Americans who built the car, to the designers and engineers in Italy (and wherever else they might live), to the US govt (taxes at various stages), to the dealership's American owner, and finally, to Ferrari (profit). Is it really rational to base the decision of whether something is "American" (ironically, a term derived from the name of an Italian) on where the profits go? It's not like those profits benefit most Americans, anyway. The important thing is whether those profits are invested back in the US economy, which in most of the car manufacturers cases, they are. And the US car manufacturers lately haven't made any profit to reinvest anyway.

No, the check is ultimately (see the definition of "ultimately") going to Ferrari.

Yes, it is rational. As we are talking about the nationalism of a product, it is very important to note where the profits for that product go. It's not my argument that foreign corporations putting money into the U.S. economy isn't a good thing-- it is, of course.

My point is simply that making spaghetti in New York, doesn't make spaghetti any less of an Italian dish.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Hawkido on 7/7/2009 4:06:32 PM , Rating: 2
Nice omission!

What about the 3 (THREE) Toyota Headquarters in the USA?

New York, NY
Washington, DC
Miami, FL

http://media.basspro.com/images/outdoors/toyota_la...

Interesting map, with the Distribution of Toyota Motors America's assets across the country.

Does GM, Ford, or Chrysler have head quarters in other countries where they make parts and/or cars? You Betcha!

GM
Oshawa, Ontario, CA

Ford
Thailand

Chrysler (already a foreign owned company)
Daimler Stuttgart, GE


RE: Fuzzy math??
By 67STANG on 7/7/2009 4:16:01 PM , Rating: 3
Nice try.

Unfortunately, none of those locations are Toyota's world headquarters. Toyota's world headquarters (main location) is in Japan-- where the company was formed.

The company that I work for has headquarters in the UK as well as our world headquarters in the U.S. Guess where the checks come.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Hawkido on 7/7/2009 12:40:08 PM , Rating: 2
Hold on... the Sales figure comes into play because American Dealerships sell the car.

Number of parts made in the US... 90%
But the total value of the parts is only 30% of the assembled cost of the car then the vehicle is really only 30%.

Most of the parts on a car are small and cheap, knobs and such.

If the Camry is 75% american parts but among those parts are the motor, transmission, and such; Then the total american value of the car is much higher.

Remember there are 3 types of lies in the world...
Lies
Damn Lies
Statistics

90% of the paychecks I get are American... but they only add up to 10% of my Income... The one paycheck I get from Germany makes up the other 90% of my income. So am I more of an American employee? or am I more of a German employee?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By walk2k on 7/7/2009 12:55:37 PM , Rating: 1
The cost of the parts IS taken into account.

RTFA people.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Hawkido on 7/7/2009 3:47:23 PM , Rating: 2
but not in the 90% figure they quoted... that was strictly the % of the quantity not the % of the cost of the parts...

Cost was a factor but not in this number. Mick was merely doing a comparison that the % of parts used was not the only factor, the cost of the parts and the country assembled and the dealership sold at also play a large part of the comparison.

Read alittle deeper, before you accuse others of not reading at all.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By walk2k on 7/7/2009 7:57:07 PM , Rating: 2
Uh, what
quote:
Critics of domestic-parts content ratings, required since 1994 by the AALA, say those ratings factor in parts costs


You really think they decide if say, a car is built with 90 US parts that cost 5 cents, and 10 foreign parts that cost $1,000 that it's "90% American made"? Sorry, RTFA again, again.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Skott on 7/7/2009 1:27:30 PM , Rating: 2
As for Ford, Chevy, and Chrysler they have to change their ways or die out. You cant keep using 30+ year old business models if those models fail in today's global economics. Say what you want about the Japanese companies but they are showing just how more economically feasible and resilient they are in the new global 21st Century economy.

On the upside is if the car is made in a factory here in the USA then the buyer is supporting American workers and their jobs wether they are American union workers or non-union workers or wether the parent headquarters is located in Asia, Europe, or the USA.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By theapparition on 7/7/2009 4:15:50 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, because supporting another bleeding behemoth (Ford) with it's similarly paid union employees is so worth taking a devaluation hit on your 08 Tahoe.

Seriously (and to be quite honest I don't believe you), you're going to take a 5-8k hit on a trade, just so you can think you're going to stick-it to "The Man".

Get a clue. Next you'll be talking about the benefits of home interest deduction. I heard it was soooo worth it to pay a bank 10k in interest so you could get back 3k from the government!!!! Woot!
Oh, wait...


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 4:36:42 PM , Rating: 2
Ford didn't get a bail out to SUPPORT the unions with my tax money.

And you don't have to believe me, makes no difference to me. The Tahoe is paid off, and yes I'll take a bit of a hit, but I also bought it when gas was $4/gallon essentially getting about $14,000 off sticker price.

Whos talking about interest deduction? I write it off because I can - but that's because I want at least some of my tax money back. I don't even want the government to keep as much as they do.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By theapparition on 7/7/2009 6:39:41 PM , Rating: 2
Let's get this strait.

You own most of Sony, but you'd rather sell your current TV at a loss and buy a more expensive TV's from Samsung just because you don't like Sony's union labor. Even though Samsung's unions get paid the same rate. You'd like to see your investment in Sony go down the tubes, just for spite.

I think you can figure out where to put GM and Ford in the above analogy.

If you would have said I'm trading my Tahoe for a Navigator because I like it better, than that's great. But just to do it to make an insignifigant stand so you can somehow sabatage your investment and lose real money by trading in basically a new vehicle doesn't make rational sense. All for spite.

I dislike this administration as much as the next non-liberal person, but you're just going way off on a tangent.

In the end, let me spell it out for you. GM management was to blame just as much (if not more) than the unions. The only reason that Ford didn't have to take the bailout is that thier management planned better and set up lines of credit long before they needed it. Ford is still saddled with the same evil unions that GM is, and yet because of management foresite, they were able to barely weather this economic downturn.

So if you're agains Unions, than buy from another company that doesn't use union labor, but spare me the "my tax money supporting evil unions" speil. OK, buy that Ford so your direct cash can finance that same (UAW anyone???) union. Give me a break.

GM and Chrysler going down has severely weakend the UAW. Gone are the job bank, company pension fund, most ridiculous benefits and they had to make signifigant concessions to stay in existance. I will be happy the day they are gone completely, but supporting Ford isn't going to make that happen.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By jconan on 7/13/2009 4:42:51 PM , Rating: 2
talk about unions what bout the union owned airlines. no more breakfast, lunch or dinner for an expensive ticket. service is lousy and so are the seats.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By knutjb on 7/7/2009 4:04:05 PM , Rating: 2
http://law.justia.com/us/cfr/title49/49-6.1.2.3.48...

That is the law and how content is calculated, try to read it and you will find some interesting loopholes and fuzzy math. This law looks like a sham to me. i.e.

"(3) In determining the value added in the United States and/or Canada of equipment supplied by an allied supplier, any equipment that is delivered to the allied supplier by an outside supplier and is incorporated into the allied supplier's equipment, is considered:
(i) 100 percent U.S./Canadian, if at least 70 percent of its value is added in the United States and/or Canada; and
(ii) To otherwise have the actual percent of its value added in the United States and/or Canada, rounded to the nearest five percent."

"Engine: (name of country)
Transmission: (name of country)
(c) The percentages required to be provided under paragraph (a) of this section may be rounded by the manufacturer to the nearest 5 percent."

"The country of origin of nuts, bolts, clips, screws, pins, braces, gasoline, oil, blackout, phosphate rinse, windshield washer fluid, fasteners, tire assembly fluid, rivets, adhesives, grommets, and wheel weights, used in final assembly of the vehicle, is considered to be the country where final assembly of the vehicle takes place."

So many of the parts are excluded or percentages can be rounded. This law costs how much per car to implement, and you pay for that added information. How relevant is it?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Jeffk464 on 7/7/2009 10:34:12 PM , Rating: 2
Correction the Taurus had the highest number of crappy parts and up to the most crappy car on the list. There is now a new Taurus, it will have to be pretty damn perfect to win customers back.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/8/2009 3:37:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There is now a new Taurus, it will have to be pretty damn perfect to win customers back.
The new Taurus gets great reviews, looks better, and has great power with the Ecoboost engine option. I still wouldn't buy it because, even in SHO form, it's still not sporty enough and doesn't have a manual or dual clutch transmission option.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Anonymous Freak on 7/8/2009 2:53:40 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sure many custom-built, one-or-two-off sports cars would qualify as 100% American.

That doesn't make them 'the most American' car, though, since the production employs only a few people in America.

By contrast, Toyota generates employment for thousands (tens of thousands indirectly,) in the U.S., purely on the manufacturing side. The reasoning behind the Camry being "more American" than the Taurus is based on the fact that more people are employed, and more raw parts are produced in America, for the Camry than for the Taurus.

My parents Subaru (made in Indiana) is more "American" than the Dodge (made in Japan, ironically!) it replaced. My Subaru (also made in Indiana) is more American than the Ford (made in Mexico) it replaced.

Heck, the latest issue of Car-and-Driver has a comparison of the Chevy Camaro with the Hyundai Genesis, where it mentions that the Camaro isn't even a "U.S." vehicle anymore, it's Canadian-made.

So, where do we draw the line at "American"? U.S.A.? North America? (Which would allow Canadian and Mexican-manufactured vehicles, which is a large chunk of GM/Chrysler/Ford's production nowadays.) Or even all of "The Americas" stretching down to South America?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By ihateu3 on 7/10/2009 7:00:14 AM , Rating: 1
You sir have, fuzzy american pride thinking!

Lets speak math, lets say 100 american businesses get 2,000 parts orders per month from ford for their taurus, but 70 american businesses get 25,000 parts orders per month from toyota for their camry, now whos keeping more jobs in america? The ford may have more american parts per vehicle, but toyota is not far behind keeping more jobs in america by mass volume orders alone, which in turn makes them a more american and patriotic vehicle (minus the name), which also allows more american businesses to keep their heads above water and thrive in this economy. You have to hand it to the japanese, no other foreign auto manufacture even cares about creating american jobs, and the japanese surely don't need to, but they do anyways, and they do it because they know we can make quality under the right management. Even the big 3 know they can't make quality anymore, and thats why they don't make their own parts anymore, they buy them elsewhere and then they just assemble them and take credit for the end product, further more... ever wonder why japanese badged cars and parts are more expensive and have a higher resale value than their american counterparts (I know the ignorant think its some sort of conspiracy that fools the whole auto industry except for them
), wait..wait..wait.... Whats that old american saying?... You get what you pay for! There has been more than enough studies over the last 25 years that show that japanese vehicles are amongst the best you can buy and outlast their american counterparts by a far margin, if you choose not to believe this than you are letting your own stubbornness blind you. I know you think this post is biased, but do you consider consumer reports and multiple other trusted media outlets over the last 25-30 years bullshit also? (yah, they also are in the conspiracy to get us to accept the japanese car!) There is alot more behind the scenes than americans realize, but americans.... are very stubborn, and by choice... ignorant, and as long as it says "toyota" or "mitsubishi" on the car, americans will defiantly stay patriotic by buying a "chevy" or "ford" even if it is really a rebadged daihatsu (and by the way, I am american and often embarrassed by traditional american ignorance, but we are not all that way) anyways anyone can turn and change percentages, study's and surveys to their own favor and liking, but in general its usually the stragglers that don't want to let go of their own beliefs and pride against circumstantial evidence

Its ok to like a vehicle that supports america, but has a funny oriental sounding name, pearl harbor has been done with for many generations, and although its confusing, in todays world you just might be supporting the more american vehicle! (and saving gas also)


Japanese executives vs American execs
By ZimZum on 7/7/2009 11:53:42 AM , Rating: 5
The CEO of Toyota makes less than 1 million per year. And there has been recent talk of him taking a pay cut. Until the bailouts American executives where getting up to 15 times that, while their companies were hemorrhaging money.

I say we poach some of those Japanese executives put them in charge of GM et al, and let them clean house. They obviously know how to run car companies better than we do, and they demand less money while doing it.




RE: Japanese executives vs American execs
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 11:59:56 AM , Rating: 4
Will you also make the auto unions receive the same compensation & benefits packages as the union under Toyota - including giving up their share of GM and removal of legacy costs.


RE: Japanese executives vs American execs
By sweetsauce on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Japanese executives vs American execs
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 1:05:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why should the CEO not doing any actual labor make 200 times what a typical worker makes? Is it because he has a degree and wears a suit? Its obviously not because of his business savvy.

Who taught you that your salary was based purely on the level of effort you put into your work? Salary and compensation are based upon supply and demand for certain positions, not purely what you do in those positions. Anyone can be successful working in an auto plant sweeping floors and pressing buttons, but not everyone can be a successful businessman, financial analyst, etc. A CEO is worth 200x because that what it costs for the company to be able to recruit their target employee without that person choosing another company instead.
quote:
When did it become acceptable for CEO's and other higher ups to make such an incredible amount of money, yet we always bitch that the common laborer is making too much?

I don't see anyone bitching about how much CEO's make except for people who are stuck doing unskilled labor their entire lives because they CHOSE not to take advantage of their educational opportunities, or were satisfied with their position as is. In fact, I see most skilled workers furthering their education, and working harder in order to make themselves more in demand, earn more money, and possibly even be a CEO one day. The CEO position creates motivation for employees to try and get to a level where they can be considered for such a position - the only ones who don't get motivated are those, again, who blew off their education or skipped education to make a quick buck at age 18, and are paying for it now.
quote:
Its ok though, lets keep blaming the unions.

The unions are unskilled and cannot fend for themselves in an open job market because their skills are in excess and not in high demand - so why is it that we shouldn't be blaming them for holding back the rest of us and allowing them to blame everyone but themselves? In terms of the UAW, they did this to themselves - they held GM in a stranglehold out of greed, so they deserve to pay for their own actions - just like ousted CEO's do for running a company into the ground.


RE: Japanese executives vs American execs
By Amiga500 on 7/7/2009 1:24:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't see anyone bitching about how much CEO's make except for people who are stuck doing unskilled labor their entire lives because they CHOSE not to take advantage of their educational opportunities


I bitch about how much CEOs make*. Its f**king ridiculous.

I've a doctrate in aero engineering.

Am I unskilled?

*I am not limiting this to merely car companies, pretty much the whole spectrum of industry is suffering from this. Far too many idiots believe that one person makes a massive difference.

Anyone with their f**king head screwed on could walk through any corporation, be it manufacturing, financial or whatever, and swing the scythe bringing in massive efficiency improvements. Most of the improvements would come from getting rid of layer upon layer of managers - or sending them to actually work instead of talking about work.


RE: Japanese executives vs American execs
By mdogs444 on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
By chick0n on 7/7/2009 2:39:17 PM , Rating: 4
rofl !

Well, CEO is like captain of a ship, the decision that he/she makes will effect rather the ship will sail or sink.

Dont forget, Salary is just "PART" of a CEO's income, what about bonuses? stock options? etc.

I have no problem with CEOs that have 200:1 salary of a typical worker, cuz seriously when the average worker fuxked his life up by skipping high school and end up working in factory/plant. Some CEOs in their early days, they study night & day, got into good college, got a nice degree, work hard in the office and finally got into CEO position.

Of course I think GM's higher-ups never deserved their salary, they made poor decisions all the time.


RE: Japanese executives vs American execs
By rcc on 7/7/2009 4:48:46 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Am I unskilled?


We don't know. We only know that you claim to be educated.

We'll take your work for that part. : )


By rcc on 7/7/2009 7:08:53 PM , Rating: 2
er, we'll take your word......


RE: Japanese executives vs American execs
By guy007 on 7/7/2009 3:31:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't see anyone bitching about how much CEO's make except for people who are stuck doing unskilled labor their entire lives because they CHOSE not to take advantage of their educational opportunities, or were satisfied with their position as is.


I disagree. Since 1990 CEO compensation has increased over 500% (http://news.minnesota.publicradio.org/features/200...
I don't think they are doing anymore work then before and as we can all tell by the economic meltdown they are not the economical genius' portrayed by many. Their eagerness to please shareholders in the short term at the expense and eventual destruction of many once formidable companies shows that they are human and quite capable of some huge mistakes.

Your logic of market regulation is flawed. Looking at their pay increase's reminds me more of price fixing than competition. Highly demanded CEO's have artificially increased their wages by refusing to work for less.

I am currently in medical school. I will be a doctor in about a year. After residency I will have done 4 years of undergrad, 4 med school and 3-4 residency for a total of 11-12 years post high school education. CEO's do 3 years of business school after 4 years of undergrad. Do you think that doctors have more of a vice on your balls or CEO's? I think if all doctors were to price fix we'd be overnight millionaires/billionaires. Im quite sure that Steve Jobs, facing possible death would have happily parted ways with his billions for the liver transplant. My point being that we are not necessarily paid based on importance of work/demand for work or competition. The market can be manipulated by many circumstance's. CEO's are obviously quite capable in this.

Furthermore, your statement about the only critics of CEO wages being those who do unskilled labor is nonsense. The president of the united states (arguably the most important position in the world) has criticized CEO pay as well as Harvard Business School professor Rakesh Khurana saying "the problem of excessive CEO compensation, showing that the return on investment from these pay packages is very poor compared to other outlays of corporate resources."

Personally, I think the fall of the auto industry is a display of greed of CEO's and the UAW. When you over inflate wages whether it's at the bottom (UAW) or at the top (CEO's) the money has to come from somewhere. Unfortunately, these parasites sucked the American auto industry dry. But, as I learned in many classes, the dumb parasites are the ones that suck the host dry and in doing so end up dying themselves.



By nycromes on 7/10/2009 1:20:28 PM , Rating: 2
Interesting that in your post, your description of price fixing that the CEOs may be taking part in sounds a whole lot like those unions. Artifically inflating their wages through refusal to work without higher wages.

In the end both are at fault for the current woes they are facing. We have all watched bad management and unions that have run companies (or entire industries) into the ground.


By achintya on 7/7/2009 3:53:06 PM , Rating: 2
Yakuza FTW!


More American??
By drewsup on 7/7/2009 11:57:37 AM , Rating: 1
It doesn't matter, in the end the money Toyota makes overall will go to Japan. At least GM, Ford,and Chrysler profits stay here. You can argue all you want that the workers at foreign owned US plants spend the money they earn here, but the overall profit that foreign corporations make in the US goes overseas.




RE: More American??
By randomposter on 7/7/2009 12:11:29 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
At least GM, Ford,and Chrysler profits stay here.

GM and Chrysler make profits?


RE: More American??
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/7/2009 12:13:15 PM , Rating: 2
**Rimshot**


RE: More American??
By mondo1234 on 7/7/2009 12:35:29 PM , Rating: 2
Well, atleast 100% of the debt stays here. Many in the press dont refer to the "Big Three" as much as the "Big Six" with Toyota, Honda, and Nissan added.


RE: More American??
By nayy on 7/7/2009 1:47:25 PM , Rating: 5
You mean that the loses of GM, Ford and Chrysler have stay in the US in the form of tax payers bailouts, while are they cutting a great deal of jobs

Meanwhile Toyota is investing $1.3B USD in a new plant, so not all of their profits go back to japan.

Besides WTF is being american? Most US coporations are at least partially owned by international holding groups and stockholders. And since the US is a mature market with high cost labor, some invest most of their money in developing contries to gain cost advantages and ensure long term growth.
You may defend that they are american brands, but really what good does that do for you?

In my book the company thats generating the most (reasonably paid) labor and pay more taxes (insted of abosorbing them) is the one that is creating the most wealth for the host country.


He's Right
By xKeGSx on 7/7/2009 11:45:59 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
”It's like Michael Jackson saying he's the King of Pop."


I guess he's right. He WAS the King of pop.




RE: He's Right
By Chemical Chris on 7/7/2009 11:50:21 AM , Rating: 2
Bah, beat me to it ;)


RE: He's Right
By amanojaku on 7/7/2009 11:51:36 AM , Rating: 4
Actually, it was Elizabeth Taylor who was the first person known to call MJ the "king of pop, rock, and soul." In fact, I can't think of any public appearance when MJ called himself, that.


RE: He's Right
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 11:57:37 AM , Rating: 2
Perhaps...but I'm more afraid to know exactly what it was that he was popping.


If you had 100 million to spend for cars
By Hacp on 7/7/2009 1:56:12 PM , Rating: 2
(probably from the government lol), buying the ford will probably benefit america more than buying the toyota.




RE: If you had 100 million to spend for cars
By Noubourne on 7/7/2009 2:58:18 PM , Rating: 3
I agree.

I mean - think of all the mechanics that would be put to work if Ford was able to sell that many more cars!!!


By MrCoyote on 7/7/2009 6:52:26 PM , Rating: 2
LOL!


By blwest on 7/7/2009 10:22:26 PM , Rating: 2
Ford= Fix or Repair Daily.


Engineering?
By Yawgm0th on 7/7/2009 12:39:10 PM , Rating: 2
Isn't the whole point of domestic vs. foreign cars the companies and the engineering? Tons of "American" products are designed here and built elsewhere. We do need our share of manufacturing jobs, but isn't the keeping design of the car here more valuable to the country? The engineers get paid more, educated more, and can continue to innovate and create American products -- and tons of jobs are created around them. Isn't that what it's really about?

I want to keep manufacturing jobs here as much as the next guy, but at some point globalization limits how much we can do that. If we get to choose, would we rather be a nation of engineers or a nation of people who work in factories? Should we build all of our own stuff and, in doing so, artificially restrict how many Americans can get jobs that require more education and skill?




RE: Engineering?
By rippleyaliens on 7/7/2009 12:44:09 PM , Rating: 5
The article makes a valid and very dominating point. A point that most of the arm chair warriors keep forgetting and overlooking. That Toyota and Honda, Are building plants in America and Assembling the cars in America. The mega Big 3 (rather the old Big 3, Ford/GM/Chrysler) have for years been shipping plants overseas, yet Toyota and Honda are Building Plants Here. Ownership of the company is mute ATM, considering that Fiat owns Chrysler, and GM well, nuff said. Credit is due.. Toyota and Honda, foreign companies are Building Plants, and assembling cars in the great usa.. So in retrospect those are american made cars...


Relevant statistics please…
By austinag on 7/7/2009 11:57:42 AM , Rating: 3
The percentage of American parts doesn't determine whether or not a company is more "American" or not. How about Taxes paid in America, or Employees in America, legal, administrative, design, environmental, supply chain contractors on the payroll in America. Not to mention retired employee receiving a pension in America.

Not the author's fault, but why does the press constantly try to make extremly complex topics distill to one flimsy stat a grad student spit out for grant work???




RE: Relevant statistics please…
By walk2k on 7/7/2009 12:43:51 PM , Rating: 1
RTFA


RE: Relevant statistics please…
By nayy on 7/7/2009 2:03:21 PM , Rating: 2
The study is not that terrible, the conclusions are too pretentious and perhaps biased, but it does provide some insight, overall I enjoyed the article.


It could be...
By The0ne on 7/7/2009 12:08:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Toyota just resumed construction on a $1.3B USD Prius plant in Blue Springs, Mississippi. The new plant will bring hundreds of jobs and will likely build the Matrix, Corolla, Tacoma truck, and possibly the Yaris, in addition to the Prius.


They could also do what they've done in Toyota city and that was to bring the hundreds of other vehicle teams to the 2010 Prius line and put them to work. If there's enough cost and employee interest they could bring over workers to work here in the new plant or shift domestic workers in other plants over. Most likely, they'll hire domestic employees.

Based on several reviews so far I have to say I'm interested in owing a 50-70MPG vehicle. My EVO X is drinking $80 worth of gas in a week already, not that it hasn't been fun driving :)




RE: It could be...
By Chaser on 7/7/2009 12:27:44 PM , Rating: 2
I owned an EVO 8. For a 4 cyl engine that car does love gas.


RE: It could be...
By Spuke on 7/7/2009 1:39:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My EVO X is drinking $80 worth of gas in a week already, not that it hasn't been fun driving :)
Oddly, I didn't buy one because of that very reason. If it had a larger gas tank, I would've probably got one anyways but a 14 gallon tank ain't cutting it when it's barely getting much better than pickup truck gas mileage. Mitsu needs to put DI in that motor.


Quality and durability sells...
By maxcue on 7/7/2009 12:42:42 PM , Rating: 2
The "Detroit Big 3" (ha) had 30 damn years knowing they were building cars that guzzled too much gas, were too heavy, had larger gaps between the body panels than overseas competition. These things matter a LOT in the construction of a car or truck. Plus, the unions fought for (and got) too much, except for the "legacy" costs mentioned elsewhere, which generally means health insurance, which EVERYONE should have. I'm a doctor and have heard the same BS anti-high-mileage anti-nationalized health care for over 30 years now and it hasn't changed a bit, but the bill for buying into that BS is coming due. Chyrsler should have been let to fail, as they likely will anyway, and partnering with Fiat should be a joke, not a remedy. We may be running low on car companies but we're not running low on *cars*. They just have to be a lot better than in the past. Whoever delivers that, wins.




RE: Quality and durability sells...
By rudy on 7/7/2009 1:33:45 PM , Rating: 2
I dissagree sorry but the big 3 all produce small vehicles they did not sell well. So why would they make more? In fact over the years I have noticed the Toyotas and Hondas getting bigger not the other way around. In fact one could argue the success of japanese car makers has been in the fact they finally hired GM engineers to build their larger vehicles and started making them much bigger so Americans would finally like them. Look at a camry from 10 or 20 years ago and look at one today the modern car is huge compared. But consumers are always so slow to catch on. Just like they were with AMD when AMD was beating intel hands down.


By Jeffk464 on 7/7/2009 10:54:00 PM , Rating: 2
I'm pretty sure the focus has a reasonable sales. It is the only american small car that I ever remember getting good reviews so that kind of makes sense. If American companies build good products people will buy them. The fact is none of the big three have built a mid size family sedan of any quality to compete with the accord and camry until very recently. The only american cars I can think of that are best in category are the new camaro, corvette, and possibly the volt when it comes out. Not quite as good but still very good the cadillic CTS, equinox, and the ford fusion. Chrystler should have just been flushed down the toilet, the only good product they have is the full sized Ram pickup.


Here are the stats that really matter
By KaTaR on 7/7/2009 6:27:07 PM , Rating: 4
Layoffs in 2009:

GM + Ford + Chrystler related = approx 1.3 million (according to the Center for Automotive Reserch).
Toyota + Honda in the US = Zero.

Net Taxes paid to Federal and State goverments in the USA over the last 4 years:

Ford = didnt pay taxes, got approx $4.5bn in credits.
GM = didnt pay taxes, got approx $8.9bn in credits.
Toyota = paid approx $5bn in taxes
Honda = paid approx $3.5bn in taxes

So, Ford and GM are laying off tens of thousands of people and using our limited tax dollars (bailouts now + tax credits later). Meanwhile Toyota and Honda (who are suffering from the same level of sales declines here) have not laid off any American workers and have paid billions in taxes.

You can argue about the color of your bumper sticker all you want. But when it comes to what really matters, money & jobs, there is no comparison.




By Spuke on 7/8/2009 3:43:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Net Taxes paid to Federal and State goverments in the USA over the last 4 years:
That says it all right there.


Buying american
By nosbigekim on 7/8/2009 9:23:48 AM , Rating: 2
If you want to argue about buying American vehicles think about this, Ford, GM, and Chrysler are closing U.S. plants and moving jobs elsewhere. Honda and Toyota are building plants and bringing jobs into the US. Should we really care about where profits go in a global economy or should we start thinking about who provides more jobs for American Workers? I think that is the point of this study.

Does it really help America if GM/Ford/Chrysler's profits end up in Detroit if they turn around and invest the money in Mexico?

I work for a large automotive supplier and can tell you the lines, dividing domestic and foreign made, were erased a long time ago. Don't believe me? Go to the AutoAlliance Internation Plant in Flatrock, MI, where both the Ford Mustang and the Mazda 6 roll off of the exact same assembly line.




RE: Buying american
By mdogs444 on 7/8/2009 9:33:08 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Does it really help America if GM/Ford/Chrysler's profits end up in Detroit if they turn around and invest the money in Mexico?

Yes. Because they wouldn't be investing in Mexico if the result did not yield even more profit for their company, which comes back to the USA.
quote:
Should we really care about where profits go in a global economy or should we start thinking about who provides more jobs for American Workers?

Yes. Do you really think we are the wealthiest nation because we work for companies form other countries, or because the biggest and best companies in the past have been started and owned in the USA? If we all worked for foreign companies, our country would never prosper because would you wouldn't create additional revenue and growth - you would remain stagnant and defendant, while everyone else is growing. What you're proposing would essentially put us in a lifelong recession.
quote:
Go to the AutoAlliance Internation Plant in Flatrock, MI, where both the Ford Mustang and the Mazda 6 roll off of the exact same assembly line.

Perhaps because Ford OWNED part of Mazda? Not the other way around.


Good time for this...
By croc on 7/7/2009 9:39:01 PM , Rating: 1
Don't wanna be an American idiot.
Don't want a nation controlled by the media.
And can you hear the sound of hysteria?
The subliminal mind-fuck America.




RE: Good time for this...
By Jeffk464 on 7/7/2009 10:44:10 PM , Rating: 2
Noticed they left out Nissan, they are now mostly a mexican company.


Apt comparison?
By Chemical Chris on 7/7/2009 11:49:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hall says that when it comes to the study calling Toyota "most American", in terms of validity ”It's like Michael Jackson saying he's the King of Pop."

So......Toyota *is* the most American? I always thought Jackson was the King of Pop (or at least, he used to be, back before I was born), so whats the deal?

As an aside, this just makes me laugh, the world is wonky place, and this is another one of its twisted jokes.

ChemC




MJ
By friedrice on 7/7/2009 12:27:32 PM , Rating: 2
Hall says that when it comes to the study calling Toyota "most American", in terms of validity ”It's like Michael Jackson saying he's the King of Pop."

err... Michael Jackson is the King of Pop




By cpeter38 on 7/7/2009 12:31:20 PM , Rating: 2
The study notes:
"Critics of domestic-parts content ratings, required since 1994 by the AALA, say those ratings factor in parts costs but not labor or a host of other factors — like factory equipment — that a given model adds to the U.S. economy."

As an example, the engine is listed as a part. If that engine factory is in the US, there is a LOT of US content involved in that. Toyota only has 2 engine plants (TMMA and TMMK) in the US - much less than ANY of the domestics ...




who's who
By itzmec on 7/7/2009 4:32:57 PM , Rating: 2
what if a ford taurus is assembled by a bunch of japanese people in michigan. is it still american?, or is it japanese? what if the parts are manufactured in japan by americans, shipped to the states, and then assembled by japanese. im confused.




By MrCoyote on 7/7/2009 6:44:59 PM , Rating: 2
I agree that their interiors in some vehicles appear cheap like American cars. LOL! I had the "pleasure" of driving a Corolla recently. The radio display looks like it hasn't been upgraded since the 1980's. Come on! Green with black digits is terrible! Compare that to the Honda Civic , for the same price, with it's nice florescent blue and white LCD displays that are high contrast. I'll pick the Honda every time. Plus the new Honda cockpits are EVENLY LIT. There are no parts of it, that appear brighter/darker. These are some reasons why I won't buy GM, FORD, or other cars, because of their crappy looking OLD SCHOOL COCKPITS! The old 8-segment LCD displays should be a thing of the past. It's time to use multi-segment higher resolution displays, like what is found on third-party radio units.

Sorry, but if I'm going to be sitting in a car for a large part of my life every day, I want a decent looking cockpit. It is 2009, not 1980. It's time for automobile manufacturers to start upgrading the cockpits in these cars!




Well...
By bernardl on 7/8/2009 12:00:45 AM , Rating: 2
The brightest minds of Japan work for Toyota, the brighest minds in the US work for Microsoft and Apple, why is it all that surprising that Japan makes better cars and the US better software?

Cheers,
Bernard




The Bottom Line
By Arrhythmia on 7/8/2009 12:03:43 AM , Rating: 2
This is what I KNOW, not what "reports" tell me:

My 2001 Tacoma has 84k on it and apart from general maintenance (ie. Tires\Battery etc.) I haven't had one issue with it. Contrast that with my work truck, a 2008 Ford Ranger with 21k on it that's already had the blower go out and the gear indicator stick to the far right.

As a consumer, that says it all for me. Ford, GM or Toyota...it makes not one bit of difference to me. Sh*t is sh*t, value is value and my money goes where it best serves my pocketbook. The "Big 3" have known the American consumer mentality since they were founded; if you throw sh*t at us, we throw it back at you...with a rock in it.

WTF do they think this country was founded on?




"A lot of people pay zero for the cellphone ... That's what it's worth." -- Apple Chief Operating Officer Timothy Cook














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