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The Toyota Camry has dethroned the Ford F-150 as the "Most American" car in Cars.com's annual American-Made Index.  (Source: Toyota)

To add insult to injury, Toyota was ruled the most "American" auto manufacturer, beating out Ford (2010 Ford F-150 SVT Raptor edition pictured).  (Source: The Torque Report)
Are you really buying American?

Many of us have seen a coworker, neighbor, or friend purchase and prominently display a "Buy American" bumper sticker on their domestic automobile.  However, in this changing global economy which has seen Toyota and Honda building new factories, design centers, and more in the U.S. and domestic automakers moving their production overseas, are "American" automobiles really that American anymore?

A Cars.com study compares the Ford F-150, a classic "American" vehicle, and the Toyota Camry in its annual American-Made Index and comes to a shocking conclusion -- the Japanese automobile has more American parts in it than the truck.  The study, in fact, finds Toyota Motor Corp. to be the most "American" company based on multiple factors.

The thorough study takes into account several critical factors including where the vehicles are assembled, their popularity based on sales volume, and the percentage of the parts made in the U.S. based on the cost or value of those parts.  After five years as the most "American" vehicle, the Ford F-150 truck was dethroned in a shocking upset by the Toyota Camry.

Toyota didn't stop there -- it picked up the sixth spot with its Sienna minivan, the seventh spot with its Tundra full-size pickup, and the tenth spot with its new Venza crossover.

Patrick Olsen, editor of Cars.com comments, "This year was unique for our index, to say the least.  The difficult sales environment and changes in cars' domestic-parts content -- both important factors in our index's equation -- played a huge role in how the rankings changed from last year."

While American manufacturers such as GM and Chrysler have slashed American jobs in mass layoffs as part of survival bids, Toyota and Honda have held the line, and in fact have created some new ones.  Toyota just resumed construction on a $1.3B USD Prius plant in Blue Springs, Mississippi.  The new plant will bring hundreds of jobs and will likely build the Matrix, Corolla, Tacoma truck, and possibly the Yaris, in addition to the Prius.

One thing worth noting is that the percentages were not based solely on the parts -- for example, the Ford Taurus had the highest percentage of American parts, with 90 percent of the parts made in America.  Lows sales volumes of 2,000 units a month versus 25,000 Camrys a month relegated the Taurus to ninth on the list, though.  Of the American manufacturers, GM and Ford were the "most American".

Some representatives of the traditional domestic auto industry are taking offense at the study.  Jim Hall of 2953 Analytics of Birmingham, MI, a firm that works closely with GM, Chrysler and others, called the study "spurious".  Hall says that when it comes to the study calling Toyota "most American", in terms of validity ”It's like Michael Jackson saying he's the King of Pop."

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Fuzzy math??
By Marlin1975 on 7/7/2009 11:42:11 AM , Rating: 4
"One thing worth noting is that the percentages were not based solely on the parts -- for example, the Ford Taurus had the highest percentage of American parts, with 90 percent of the parts made in America. Lows sales volumes of 2,000 units a month versus 25,000 Camrys a month relegated the Taurus to ninth on the list, though."

So toyota is not the most american. Just their fuzzy math makes it seem that way.




RE: Fuzzy math??
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/7/2009 11:50:31 AM , Rating: 5
Although I understand where you are going with this, 25,000 Camrys at lets say 75% (the minimum qualifier for the study) vs 2,000 Tauruses at 90% would make for an overwhelming victory for the Camry as far as American parts/labor usage, right?

I mean, what good is an even 100% "domestic" car to the study if only a few are sold?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 11:52:45 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
I mean, what good is an even 100% "domestic" car to the study if only a few are sold?

I think the bigger and more important question is why are 100% American cars not able to sell as well? Legacy costs & Unions.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Hiawa23 on 7/7/2009 12:14:15 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I mean, what good is an even 100% "domestic" car to the study if only a few are sold?

I think the bigger and more important question is why are 100% American cars not able to sell as well? Legacy costs & Unions.

Exactly, plus there is this perception by many that these cars will last longer & cost much less to maintain, which is why I own a 1997 Honda Civic that runs as excellent with over 220, miles on it, & the same parts are in it that it shipped from the factory with. In 2006 I bought Mitsu Lancer Ralliart, so I will never buy a car based on whether it's American or not, only based on what I like & what's in my price range, but based on this article, it does have some merit to it.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By KC7SWH on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Iaiken on 7/7/2009 3:19:11 PM , Rating: 5
He most certainly meant 220,000 miles, but you can be as dense as you like... :D


RE: Fuzzy math??
By MrBlastman on 7/7/2009 1:27:33 PM , Rating: 5
Not to steal your thunder - I'll start by saying I too buy Japanese cars now after my last American car was a total lemon turd - but, Mitsubishi is bottom of the barrel when it comes to Japanese cars. My friends Lancer he bought back in 2003 has turned out to be a total POS with all sorts of problems. Hopefully yours turns out better.

My point is, just because it is Japanese doesn't give it the gold seal of approval. There are great Japanese Car manufacturers and there are also shoddy ones.

It can also be said that 50% of all statistics can be used to prove your point 90% of the time while only being 75% correct... I find the study interesting in regards to Toyota being number one but also find it a little deceptive considering (and I have not read the full study, am just going on what is posted in the article here) it factors in not only total americanized part/production percentage and applies a multiple associated with volume of sales to compute the aggregate averaged value.

At first I was like - wow! that makes sense, Toyota is more American due to parts/production but then after hearing the figure of 90% of a Taurus being American parts I was more like :-| to the figures. It is great the Japanese have moved more production and assembly stateside - the naysayers who only buy "American' F Yeah!" really are oblivious to the fact that some of these Japanese cars really are pretty "American" in their own right.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By gerf on 7/7/2009 8:26:46 PM , Rating: 5
Another problem is that machine suppliers for Japanese comapanies are all, get this, Japanese. All the management at the Japanese facilities are also Japanese. Parts suppliers for the Japanese companies, even ones made in the US, are also Japanese with Japanese machines and Japanese management.

So, in addition to the fuzzy math, we also have a level not yet fully explored in this report.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By gerf on 7/7/2009 8:31:12 PM , Rating: 5
In addition, I'd bet that the engineering for Japanese products is done in Japan, and Big 3 engineering is mostly American.

Production and assembly lines aren't the only way to judge what % American a vehicles is.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 7/8/2009 8:57:38 AM , Rating: 2
which is exactly why they are better cars.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By bldckstark on 7/13/2009 12:28:57 PM , Rating: 2
ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I work for a company that sells interior parts to just about every car manufacturer in the US.

I have been in several Japanese and Domestic car manufacturers plants. The top management personnel are Japanese in the Japanese plants, but everyone else is (basically) American. As a matter of fact, I have seen more foreign born salary workers in the domestic plants than the Japanese and Korean. The machines are from all over the place in both types of plants just like every factory (with exception of the German automakers who really do buy everything they can from the homeland). The majority of the design work for parts is done at the suppliers. The design work for the vehicle itself is done at the automaker.

The reason that Toyota is number one in this survey is that they try to have the closest, best priced manufacturer they can get to supply their parts, while Ford, GM, and Chrysler are busy outsourcing everything they can to other countries. The domestics are doing this to avoid union wages.

The study listed in the article takes the number of dollars spent per year in the US versus outside the US to determine who is the most "American". Basically they are talking dollar content. Let's say Ford spends $3500 on US content and labor to build a Taurus, and Toyota spends $3000 on a Camry. If Toyota sells 100 times as many cars, they spent more money in the US than Ford did. The more money you spend inside the US, the better, and therefore more "American", it is. Feel free to debate their definition of American.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By osalcido on 7/13/2009 7:50:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
All the management at the Japanese facilities are also Japanese.


Oh those poor American CEOs! Won't somebody please think of thej CEOs?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By hyvonen on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 1:40:05 PM , Rating: 5
I should buy American - and pay more money than what the competition costs because my neighbor believes that his union should live above the what the competitive wages are in that sector? No thanks.

Why should I sacrifice so he doesn't have to? Perhaps if the UAW wasn't so greedy, had competitive wages, the cars wouldn't have the added costs and therefore would be competitively priced or even cheaper than the competition, and all would be well.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By MrBlastman on 7/7/2009 1:46:53 PM , Rating: 2
70/k a year to sweep the floors... Need I say more?

Unions had their place in time and that time was 80 - 100 years ago. Nowadays they are leaches that sap the monetary life out of the money machine causing the gears to bang into each other.

I don't buy strictly Japanese to buy Japanese, I'm only buying it right now because of the quality that can be had with the particular Japanese brands (not all) that I choose to peruse. Quality and value first, locale of origin last.

I think it took the American Car Companies 20 years to somewhat figure this out... 20 years too long. American quality has increased substantially in the last ten years but it was too late to reverse the damage to their perceived brand image that had been done over the years.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By aju on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By itzmec on 7/7/2009 4:36:40 PM , Rating: 3
union workers cant afford to buy fords. thats news to me.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Keeir on 7/7/2009 5:02:21 PM , Rating: 5
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/03/12/fords-new-deal-...

While the UAW is not the devil, it did create the situation where the average "domestic" car company was paying compensation rates within the United States that were 40% higher than non-Union auto companies. Is it any wonder Toyota and Honda were willing to build thier cars here when they get such a great rate cut for a large chuck of the costs?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By MrBlastman on 7/7/2009 5:04:31 PM , Rating: 5
You really are brainwashed and oblivious aren't you?

Full disclosure: My grandfather was the head of a labor union in the 1950's/60's.

With that said, you'd think immediately that I would be a staunch supporter of these unions. How is it that I have formulated a bias against these current-day unions over time? I have the unique perspective of being able to see them for what they were and they are now.

I stand firm on my belief they held a legitimate purpose in the past - they did. Many years ago it was quite common for the worker to be exploited and used in quite despicable ways by their employers and companies. Over time, unions fought hard for workers rights and provisions - and eventually lead to many acts being passed which yielded protections and benefits you and I reap to this day in our various forms of occupation.

Believe it or not, the world was a far harsher place for the employee 50 - 100 years ago. I could probably write a book on all the dastardly things companies would do to their workers. Current day - companies do still screw over employees from time to time and abuse their powers - but these abuses are NOTHING like they used to be. We've got it easy now compared to back then.

However, there came a point where the unions began to ask for too much in return and created a dramatic burden on some of the companies they fought so hard to make improvements in. It is a well known fact that these unions have created a tremendous strain on the automakers. The benefits and pension plans that they provide have really sapped a great deal out these companies bottom lines as well as the rediculous employment/payroll requirements they have laid out.

Yes, bad management is also to blame. Yes, it was a poor decision by them for years to create crap cars with poor reliability - and - for a while, cars that had zero appeal to the buyers sensual tastes (read boring cars). Yes, this caused their sales to lag behind and allow the Japanese to come in and sell more cars.

The problem occured when those in managment started to get a clue and try to rectify the situation - but - lo and behold their hands were tied due to union agreements which gave the Japanese a competitive advantage over US Automakers because they could not compete with the same rulebook. The Japanese had one rulebook, the US Automakers had another that was one hundred times thicker with rules and red tape that they could not ignore.

The unions bled them dry and it was also the unions that REFUSED to make concessions in order to give these auto makers breathing room. To drive the point home, what would you say to this:

Imagine a company is losing money and they need to cut costs. They try to cut the costs but the rulebook says they are not allowed to cut the costs. If the company doesn't cut the costs they will go out of business. The employees, however, think they are being exploited if the costs are cut and refuse to agree to it. Ultimately, this means the employees lose their jobs.

Who is to blame? The executives who are trying to cut the costs or the asinine employees and unions who are refusing to make concessions thereby causing their own jobs to be rendered useless? Who is going to pay them now?

It is extremely unfair for you to just sit back and blame it all on the executives and the companies themselves when the unions and employees did not have the foresight to see that they were firing themselves by refusing to help bail the water out of the sinking ship. If you see your house on fire, do you help put it out or do you stand on the sidelines and do nothing. If you do nothing, it is gone, if you do something it might still be there. The employees and unions did nothing and now they are upset? Please. That is not how it works.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By aju on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Boze on 7/7/2009 7:00:35 PM , Rating: 5
Don't criticize the private jets... those are also tons of American jobs that are being hit hardest by the sorry ass media's attempt to villianize luxury goods.

The private aircraft industy is almost exclusively American:

Gulfstream - American
Cessna - American
Cirrus Design - American

and those are just the three on the top of my head.

I'm getting sick of hearing about Joe the Plumber whine his lazy ass off about private jets, the ones that Rob the American Aerospace Engineer is designing and Dan the Mechanic is servicing.

Its a travesty of American crybaby-gotta-blame-someone media that these companies and their American employees are going out of business and being laid off, respectively.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By LoweredExpectations on 7/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By KillerInTheRye on 7/8/2009 11:05:30 AM , Rating: 5
Genius is spelled with an "I" in it.

Here is the problem with society that is so evident in your post. You stated that,
quote:
now husband and wife both have to work as much overtime as they can get just to pay off the credit card bills

How untrue is that? I make a little over 30k a year at a white collar job. My wife does not work, and thanks to great budgeting my family lives very comfortably. Are you suggesting Union workers can not do the same on what they are paid? Or are they forced to buy this unnecessary stuff you mentioned because they are Union?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/8/2009 3:10:32 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
My wife does not work, and thanks to great budgeting my family lives very comfortably.
I have to agree with this statement. Especially in the US, one does not need to make a lot of money to have a decent lifestyle if you live in certain locations and manage your money well. There are areas of the country where 30k a year won't cut it but there are plenty of others where that's enough to live well.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By the3monkies on 7/8/2009 7:52:17 PM , Rating: 2
Try to live in Seattle on 30K where the rents on a very modest home run 2000/mth. My salary is 55K, and with the rent, medical expenses, and two kids, the wife has no choice buy to work, and even then we can't put enough aside to buy our own place.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By JustAClone on 7/10/2009 11:33:09 PM , Rating: 2
Oh dude, there's NO WAY I could support my family of 5 on 30K a mth! Even with the wife working, we still have to pinch every penny.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By JustAClone on 7/11/2009 10:29:13 AM , Rating: 2
Naturally, I meant 30K/yr. Just thought I'd correct the obvious error before someone made a snide remark.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By GaryJohnson on 7/7/2009 3:21:23 PM , Rating: 1
Or you could buy foreign and just give the left over money to your neighbor :/


RE: Fuzzy math??
By catavalon21 on 7/7/2009 5:33:21 PM , Rating: 2
Hmm...my Toyota Sequoia was assembled in the U.S., while my Ford Crown Victoria was not - which one are you arguing is "American" so my "neighbor doesn't lose his/her job"?

In my opinion, the underlying issue is that it's far from as clear as it perhaps once was to really label a car "foreign" or "domestic".


RE: Fuzzy math??
By petrosy on 7/7/2009 8:32:15 PM , Rating: 5
I bet the BUY AMERICAN sticker is made in China. Japanese cars are great!


RE: Fuzzy math??
By gerf on 7/7/2009 8:33:42 PM , Rating: 4
What about total labor behind each one? Engineers, management, machine suppliers, part suppliers... There's more than just final assembly in the making of a car you know.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Pudro on 7/8/2009 6:58:19 AM , Rating: 2
If I want to help my neighbors (and myself) keep a job, I'll buy a Honda. Because they are the ones employing me (indirectly) and my neighbors in central Ohio.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/8/2009 8:28:46 AM , Rating: 2
I live in Columbus, OH and in 2007 I bought an 07 Honda Accord 2dr V6 that was built/assembled in Marysville plant, just outside Columbus. What really irked me though was that I still had to pay the $800 destination charge for them to deliver the car to the dealership right across the street from the plant!


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 7/8/2009 9:01:14 AM , Rating: 1
That's not how economics works. No other country in the world buys American since the cars are crap. There are some good selling Fords in Europe, for example, but they are designed and built in Europe, and are not for sale in the US. Ironically, the US auto makers are IMPORTING their European designed and built cars to save their cans in the US. So you see, economically speaking, perhaps it is time to get out of car production, and move into something we're good at. That is how markets work. I am not going to buy a POS that my neighbor made just so he can keep his union job.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/8/2009 9:28:11 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
No other country in the world buys American since the cars are crap.

Not exactly true. In some places, the cost of an American car due to the American labor is just too expensive for them to buy. In others, for example China, look how expensive a Buick is there as opposed to here. China forces the prices of our products to be artificially high so their own products sell first - something our leaders refuse to do, all while our trade deficits are out of control. You really need to look at the big picture - if wages are so much less in another country, they won't be able to purchase an American made car, but rather a car produced in that country owned by an American company. That's the only way to stay competitive. Other countries don't worry about that when sending things to the US - since we're the most wealthy country in the world.
quote:
Ironically, the US auto makers are IMPORTING their European designed and built cars to save their cans in the US.

They are doing this because the cost of labor in the US due to the unions has destroyed any potential profit margin because it makes the prices of the cars so high, that their sales numbers are less and less.
quote:
perhaps it is time to get out of car production, and move into something we're good at.

You seem to forget that we can be the masters of mass production - but its not the company who is forcing the products to sacrifice quality. Its the governments EPA, Taxation, and other forms of regulations that hinder our business and increase costs to the point that we have to cut corners to keep the prices down - else the products wont sell and companies will go out of business. If you want to blame anyone - look at the ROOT of the problem - social engineering dreamers in Washington who believe everyone should live by the personal beliefs of someone in government.
quote:
I am not going to buy a POS that my neighbor made just so he can keep his union job.

Agreed. Unions are destroying the the needed manual labor jobs in the country. They are their own worst enemy, trying to playoff that they aren't greedy - but expect companies to operate not for profit, but for the union wishes.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By jconan on 7/13/2009 4:27:12 PM , Rating: 2
"You seem to forget that we can be the masters of mass production - but its not the company who is forcing the products to sacrifice quality. Its the governments EPA, Taxation, and other forms of regulations that hinder our business and increase costs to the point that we have to cut corners to keep the prices down"

Cutting corners doesn't quite instill consumer confidence.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By joemoedee on 7/7/2009 1:33:09 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I think the bigger and more important question is why are 100% American cars not able to sell as well? Legacy costs & Unions.


Eh, I don't think as much. Why? The price of the American car is typically in line, if not less expensive, than its Japanese equivalent.

The problem is the cars themselves, at least from a historical perspective. There has been leaps and bounds made in quality of GM/Ford/Chrysler, but that doesn't erase the years that the Japanese just made the better car.

Go back to say, 1993. Compare a Civic to a Cavalier. The Civic wins hands down. Quality and reliability were better, as well as resale value. Is the chasm that large between a Civic and say, a Cobalt or Focus today? No. But back then... yes. People haven't forgotten.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By chick0n on 7/7/2009 2:29:32 PM , Rating: 1
But remember this

Ok, Lets just say, here are 2 cars in the 30,000 MSRP range. One Japanese, one American. Both made in USA.

but if UAW doesnt exist. the same American Made might be able to do a MSRP of 25,000 or less.

Here is another problem, Lets just say it cost 20,000 for the Japanese to make its Car, they can spend an "extra" 2000 dollars into manufacturing to "further" improve the quality of its parts. Which makes them look even better than the American made one.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By thurston on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Tsuwamono on 7/8/2009 12:37:49 AM , Rating: 5
thats why there is government regulation. this isn't the 1920s buddy. We don't need unions now that we have workers rights laws.

Welcome to the 21st century.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By thurston on 7/8/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Kaleid on 7/11/2009 6:33:07 AM , Rating: 2
Well, its not quite that simply is it? Gov can easily be purchased by the moneyed classes and this certainly seem to be true in USA. Their lobbying power is tremendously strong.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By jeff834 on 7/8/2009 12:42:41 AM , Rating: 4
That's very gung ho of you, but your logic is flawed. While I will agree many years ago, mostly in my grandfather and great grandfather's time, many people fought for worker's rights and helped secure better working conditions for everyone, what have union workers done for me in the last 50 years? If unions ceased to exist tomorrow my life would be the same, it may even have a couple positive effects. Of course no one could really predict what that would do 20 years from now.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By SublimeSimplicity on 7/7/2009 12:41:49 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Although I understand where you are going with this, 25,000 Camrys at lets say 75% (the minimum qualifier for the study) vs 2,000 Tauruses at 90% would make for an overwhelming victory for the Camry as far as American parts/labor usage, right?


But if you want to "Buy American" like the bumper sticker says, the Taurus is the way to do that. If on the other hand you to name which car is most valuable to the US economy, Cars.com math holds and the Camry is the winner.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Keeir on 7/7/2009 1:14:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If on the other hand you to name which car is most valuable to the US economy, Cars.com math holds and the Camry is the winner.


Yep, definately agree. Cars.com missed the boat by including the sales numbers. However, they are also fair in thier assesment that Toyota is nearly buying American. 4/10 of the Most US parts and Assembled in the US are Toyota.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By elgueroloco on 7/8/2009 10:03:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If on the other hand you to name which car is most valuable to the US economy, Cars.com math holds and the Camry is the winner.


Yes, but that is only because of its current sales numbers. I would bet that with 90% American parts, the Taurus holds the most potential value to the US economy. i.e. If as many people bought a Taurus as buy Camries (sp?), the Taurus would be contributing more to the US economy than the Camry.

That being said, I'm still happy with my Toyota Corolla. It was built 20 minutes' drive from my house in CA, and is better than any Ford I've ever driven.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By adiposity on 7/7/2009 1:11:33 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
I mean, what good is an even 100% "domestic" car to the study if only a few are sold?


I think you are missing the point of the "buy American" mindset. If you go buy one, then you help solve this problem! It doesn't make sense to argue "the car is not very American if it doesn't sell" as a reason not to buy. Although, if the car is a piece of junk, I see your point.

What good is a 100% American car, if it sucks?

-Dan


RE: Fuzzy math??
By MrWho on 7/7/2009 4:26:15 PM , Rating: 2
The car breaks sooner, so you buy another one and then another and another - adding more to the pile of american cars bought.

And thus the american economy is saved!


RE: Fuzzy math??
By adiposity on 7/7/2009 5:41:29 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I mean, what good is an even 100% "domestic" car to the study if only a few are sold?


Sorry, missed the part about "to the study." If the study is measuring "how american" it is to buy a certain car, then it matters. If the study is measuring "how much a car helps the american economy," then it doesn't. But it still makes sense that a "more american" car would be a better purchase for giving money back to the US.

-Dan


RE: Fuzzy math??
By omnicronx on 7/13/2009 11:48:16 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What good is a 100% American car, if it sucks?
Problem is, this is pretty much untrue, in fact most people have no idea how much better American cars are than 5-6 years ago... People believe what they want to believe, US cars these days are not bad cars, its just incredibly hard to shake the bad taste that the late 80's and 90's left in our mouths.

Whats worse is people seem to think they know what they are talking about when they obviously do not (on both sides). My friend was knocking my protege yesterday when I pointed out that he owned a Ford focus Zx3. He did not believe me that my Mazda used a large percentage of Ford parts and vice versa due to the agreements between the two companies and actually shared many of the same parts between these two particular models. I happened to be replacing my front speakers at the time and low and behold, they were stock ford speakers.

I would bet a large sum of money that given the choice between a Mazda 3 and a Ford Focus, many would assume that the Mazda will last longer, without ever knowing that they are on the same platform and use almost the same engine. As I said, the stigma that imports are better than American vehicles is the biggest problem, and will probably take years to correct.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By clovell on 7/7/2009 4:27:19 PM , Rating: 5
Huh? This crap may be important to you contrarians who like to win arguements, but to people who actually want to buy American, the Taurus is 'More American', and supporting it only makes it moreso.

If I sold 20 million Vespas in the US each year with only 30% of the parts and labor happening in the US, would you call that more American? No. /"article".


RE: Fuzzy math??
By powerincarnate on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Samus on 7/7/2009 6:36:50 PM , Rating: 3
It's ridiculous to consider it non-American of Ford and GM to use parts manufactured in Mexico and Canada. The ONLY reason Ford went to Mexico to assemble the Focus and Fusion is because the profit margins of these vehicles are razor-thin, and building them within the USA would be financial suicide (ala Unions) so what they're trying to say is...

IT'S AMERICAN TO GO BANKRUPT.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By jconan on 7/13/2009 4:32:38 PM , Rating: 2
u may have a point there, since Mexico and Canada are part of the North American continent when it's made in America.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 11:49:57 AM , Rating: 3
Exactly. The Toyota is not a more American car. If the Camry had 20% American Parts and the Taurus had 90% American parts, this study would still say the Camry is more American because the total number of American parts in circulation is higher.

For example, this would be how they conduct their numbers to see who is most American...

Toyota 2/10*25000 = 5000 parts
Ford 9/10*2000 = 1800 parts

So Toyota wins?

Its a bunk study, and not sure why anyone would even try to pass this off as legit.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By mdogs444 on 7/7/2009 11:55:47 AM , Rating: 5
It doesn't matter what the content requirements are. This is a pure report based on sales statistics and nothing else.

75% of 25000 is still greater than 100% of 2000, if the Taurus was 100% American parts.

So the only thing bogus here is the report itself. It would be more factual if they were saying that Toyota provides more total American parts into circulation due to sales volume - not that Toyota is more American.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By npoe1 on 7/7/2009 12:38:58 PM , Rating: 5
I agree with you. There was an episode in "Invader Zim" in which there was to going be a medical check up and Zim was afraid of being discovered that he is an alien. He started to steal human organs and ended with 5 times more human organs in his body than regular human beings, alleging that he was 500% human neglecting he is an alien; that based on the amount of human organs on his body.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By gucio69 on 7/7/2009 12:58:34 PM , Rating: 5
That is the weirdest (and yet strangely relevant) comparison that I have ever read on here.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By NEOCortex on 7/7/2009 1:40:16 PM , Rating: 3
I forgot how great a show Invader Zim was....


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Bainne on 7/7/2009 12:49:49 PM , Rating: 5
I don't think thats quite how the math works.

You also forget, that 25,000 cars vs 2,000 requires requires FAR more labour. Arguably 12.5X more labour which equals more USA labour for both parts and the car itself.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By omnicronx on 7/13/2009 10:52:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't think thats quite how the math works.
Funny you mention this, considering your statement makes it out as though ratios mean nothing. All American auto manufacturers use more American parts per ca pita than Toyota Period! Thus Toyota's statement of their car's being more American is completely incorrect, regardless of the numbers they are throwing around.
quote:
You also forget, that 25,000 cars vs 2,000 requires requires FAR more labour. Arguably 12.5X more labour which equals more USA labour for both parts and the car itself.
Furthermore GM which is still very close to Toyota in the US in terms of sales surely has more total impact than toyota when taking the total workforce into consideration. Including indirect labor from using more American parts, they are probably still more 'American' than Toyota even using your/their logic.

Using this logic a large volume foreign company that only uses 1% American parts could be considered 'More American' than a company in a small US town using 100% parts. This is why ratios are very important in this case, throwing them out the window and saying they are irrelevant makes absolutely no sense at all.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By adiposity on 7/7/2009 1:07:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It doesn't matter what the content requirements are.


Yes, it does matter, because you suggested that Toyota would win even if they only had 20% american parts. But the study deliberately disqualifies any vehicle that has less than 75% "American" parts, presumably because any such vehicle is too "foreign" in components to be seriously considered.

quote:
This is a pure report based on sales statistics and nothing else.


Wrong again. The article states:

quote:
Cars.com's American-Made Index rates vehicles built and bought in the U.S. Factors include sales, where the car's parts are made and whether the car is assembled in the U.S.


If the car contains less than 75% American parts, it can not even be considered. If the car is not manufactured in the US, it loses points. So no, it is not only sales that matters.

Frankly, the whole idea is stupid. There is no way to measure if a car is more "American" since "American made" doesn't really exist anymore. All companies have global dealings now, and have a set of compromises between parts and labor from different countries. It is essentially impossible to build anything without using foreign parts or labor in one way or another. So the only thing we are measuring here, is an arbitrary set of criteria weighed against each other in an unknown ratio, for a meaningless conclusion: who is more "American."

If Americans are manufacturing Toyota cars, the parts are 80% "American," and they sell 25,000 cars per month to Americans, maybe we can stop pretending we are selling out our country to buy one? Perhaps that is the idea that gets people so mad.

-Dan


RE: Fuzzy math??
By bhieb on 7/7/2009 2:46:36 PM , Rating: 4
Profit margin (the money that goes directly out of the US) is the only factor I see missing from this report, and to me is what "Buy American" is about.

Not about the % of parts a car has that is American, but more importantly where the profit goes. Toyota is making money on each car so as are the dealers.

Generally speaking MSRP has about 25-30% play in it for the dealer. So assuming he is taking 30% and Toyota needs some too lets just say another 30% (cuz I doubt the dealer makes more per car than Toyota). So now 60% (guessing here probably not that high but not 0% either) of the MSRP is now leaving the country. Sure 75% of the 40% left that is actual cost of the parts is staying here, but the rest is going back to Japan.

To me that is the major flaw of the "study", that 60% or so of the car is completely ignored. Most likely because it scales the opposite way with higher sales numbers, and that does not fit the agenda of the article. Because of the higher sales numbers the actual amount of money being sent out of the country would make Toyota look really bad. If you only look at parts used in manufacturing, it looks like an American hero.

Knowing that on average 30% of a car is markup to the dealer and there is more mark up to the manufacutre so they make money too


RE: Fuzzy math??
By noirsoft on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Fuzzy math??
By noirsoft on 7/8/2009 3:44:53 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Generally speaking MSRP has about 25-30% play in it for the dealer. So assuming he is taking 30% and Toyota needs some too lets just say another 30% (cuz I doubt the dealer makes more per car than Toyota). So now 60% (guessing here probably not that high but not 0% either) of the MSRP is now leaving the country.


He did say that the dealer's cut (30% by his estimate) is leaving the country. That's what I was replying to.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/8/2009 3:27:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
He did say that the dealer's cut (30% by his estimate) is leaving the country. That's what I was replying to.
Gotcha. Thanks.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By bldckstark on 7/13/2009 12:54:59 PM , Rating: 2
The "profits go overseas" argument doesn't work for publicly traded companies.

Anyone can own the stock, and spend the "gains" wherever they want. If you want Japanese profits to stay in the US, buy more Toyota stock. Japanese investors owned a huge chunk of GM stock in the 80's. They took all the gains (from the past) and spent it in Japan, so I guess GM is foreign too.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By blwest on 7/7/2009 10:13:38 PM , Rating: 3
Actually 75% of 25,000 is 18,750. Last time I checked 100% of 2,000 is still 2,000 which is less than 18,750. Grade-school math and Americans don't get it. Maybe that's why our economy is in a slump.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By omnicronx on 7/13/2009 11:29:11 AM , Rating: 2
Last time I checked 90% is still larger than 75%, no ratios or sales numbers are going to change this. Volume is only a tiny piece of the puzzle and has absolutely no baring on the statement of being 'more American'. Saying a product is more American implies that a single product contains more American parts, a statement which proves to be completely untrue. Using Toyota's logic, GM could be more Chinese than many of the smaller Chinese manufacturers, as they sell more vehicles in volume (assuming they use chinese parts).

Furthermore Toyota has not been the #1 in share in the US for a while now (GM holds the #1 spot), in fact they have been number 3 in sales for the last three months putting them behind GM and Ford. So essentially in order for Toyota to come up with these numbers, they had to compare each individual vehicle's sales until they found a ratio that was well suited for their comment. In total GM is still more 'American' than Toyota even by their crazy standards. GM still sells more vehicles, uses more American parts and has a greater indirect impact by using these American parts than Toyota.

A statement like this is insulting to the people of the United States, and it is a sad day if you actually agree with them and their obviously skewed numbers.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By The0ne on 7/7/2009 12:03:18 PM , Rating: 4
More American because of parts? O.o Who in their right mind(s) would even consider such a thing. That's like saying we're MORE Chinese because lets face it we have MANY Chinese products at home.

This analysis is so insulting it's not even funny. Seriously, more American because I have more parts? This is crazy talk.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By jimbojimbo on 7/7/2009 2:31:27 PM , Rating: 2
China does pretty much own us so there's validity in your statement.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/7/2009 2:55:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
China does pretty much own us so there's validity in your statement.
Yours sure isn't. Out of all of our debt, 25% is foreign owned. Out of that 25% slice, China owns 24% of that. Hardly, what I would call owning us. BTW, Japan owns 20% of that. Do they own us too?


RE: Fuzzy math??
By itzmec on 7/7/09, Rating: -1
RE: Fuzzy math??
By adiposity on 7/7/2009 5:33:32 PM , Rating: 3
Because 24% of 25% is 6%, and 20% of 25% is 5%.

He didn't say 24% is China owned, he said 24% of the foreign debt (which totals 25%) is China owned, meaning they own 6% of our foreign debt, and Japan owns 5%.

After 24% of the 25%, there is still 76% of the 25% left...

-Dan


RE: Fuzzy math??
By TSS on 7/8/2009 9:31:32 AM , Rating: 2
do the math all you like, who owns what doesn't become appearant untill it's time to actually pay off your debt.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/7/2009 5:39:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
how can japan own 20% of 25%, when you just said china owns 24% of the 25% slice.
I guess math isn't your forte. I'll give you a made up example:

Total debt = 5 billion
Total foreign debt (25% of total debt) = 1.25 billion
China's part (24% of the total foreign debt) = 300 million
Japan's part (20% of the total foreign debt) = 250 million

There are other countries that own particular percentages of the foreign debt but China and Japan are the largest owners of that debt (combined 44% of foreign owned debt).


RE: Fuzzy math??
By The0ne on 7/7/2009 4:50:04 PM , Rating: 2
While that statement may be true, "owning" and "more of (being)" are entirely different.

Me: being "more" Chinese
You: Chinese own us

Totally different >.>


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Fireshade on 7/7/2009 12:39:14 PM , Rating: 2
Odd title indeed.
They should have titled the report "Toyota sells the most American parts"
The title would still sound odd, but it'd be closer to the study's conclusion :)


RE: Fuzzy math??
By npoe1 on 7/7/2009 12:43:27 PM , Rating: 2
Also, what if Ford sells 25,000 Taurus at month in another country? Toyota is still more American than Ford. The study doesn’t count sales outside the USA.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Motley on 7/7/2009 7:11:21 PM , Rating: 2
Of course on the flip side, using the exact same (flawed) math:
Toyota 2/10*25000 = 5000 parts
Ford 9/10*2000 = 1800 parts

Assuming each "part" was $1000, then the Toyota has contributed more to the American economy than the Ford has.

But if both companies were failing, which would you save in order to help the American economy the most? Toyota that pours $5 billion into the economy or Ford that pours $1.8? The study is useful, but you need to understand it so it can be applied correctly.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Marlin1975 on 7/7/2009 11:51:33 AM , Rating: 5
"Consider that among the 34 2009-model-year cars that NHTSA lists as having U.S./Canadian parts content of 75 percent or higher, 19 of them are GMs. Why didn't The General have a better showing? Declining sales — plus a number of those cars heading for extinction — took a major toll."

Seems this "study" had its results before it even started. They just needed to come up with the fuzzy math to get to them.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By 67STANG on 7/7/2009 12:40:42 PM , Rating: 2
What about this fact:

Toyota Headquarters: Toyota City, Japan
Ford Headquarters: Dearborn, Michigan, United States
GM Headquarters: Detroit, Michigan, United States

Parts and sales volumes aside. A Toyota cannot, by definition, be "more American" than Ford or GM. It's not an American company. Period.

You can build a Ferarri in the United States with 75% American parts. The car was still designed and engineered in Italy, which is where the check is ultimately going to go.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By walk2k on 7/7/2009 12:51:36 PM , Rating: 5
Update:

GM Headquarters: Washington D.C.
lol

Anyway, the point is, Toyota and others employ thousands of American workers, they build cars in America with American-made parts. You can cry about where the "profits" go (as if Ford/GM make profits) but the taxes are paid here, and some like Honda and Toyota are freely traded on the NYSE so any American investor is free to reap the profits.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By randomposter on 7/7/2009 1:01:31 PM , Rating: 2
And as an investor, you'd be a hell of a lot better off if you bought 1000 shares in Toyota 10 years ago than 1000 shares in GM.


RE: Fuzzy math??
By Spuke on 7/7/2009 1:19:01 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
And as an investor, you'd be a hell of a lot better off if you bought 1000 shares in Toyota 10 years ago than 1000 shares in GM.
Yes because it's better to lose less than lose more.


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