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Man encounters uncertainty in his daily life, and typically it's an unpleasant experience. A new scientific study shows that fear of the theory of evolution may largely be due to peoples' negative feelings about unpredictable or random behavior.  (Source: Best of Media Blog)
Personal experiences may drive disbelief in evolution, as much or more so than religious beliefs

Today, most Ph.D instructors in life-science related fields conclude based on the overwhelming body of evidence that evolution was the process of changes that took life on Earth from unicellular life, to multicellular life in all its grandeur -- including man.  Yet, 44 percent of respondents to a recent 2007 Gallop Poll of U.S. citizens stated that they believed that God created man in its current form (pure creationism) and  44 percent stated they believed God guided human evolution (intelligent design).

A new behavioral science study performed at the University of Amsterdam and published in the peer-reviewed 
Journal of Experimental Social Psychology offers fascinating clues as to why some people may disavow evolution.

Intriguingly, while many people believe religious reasons to be the driving factor, for many people it appears that fear of randomness and uncontrolled circumstances is one of the major motivations for people to deny the theory of evolution.

In the study, a set of 140 undergraduate students were broken into two categories.  The first were told nothing before a questionnaire, but the second set were "primed" by asking them to recall a past threatening situation in their lives over which they had no control, and then asking them to give three reasons why the future is uncontrollable.

The students were then asked to pick which theory they felt was most valid among three popular theories of evolution -- traditional evolution, intelligent design (a religious-based theory that a deity guided evolution), and a newer secular theory of non-random evolution:

  1. The standard theory of evolution which "emphasized that natural selection is generally a random process in which unpredictable features of the natural environment determine the outcomes."

  2. An "intelligent design" theory which, "explained how a controlling designer, not random processes, provides the best way to explain the world."

  3. A view of evolution by natural selection which, "described how evolution of life is not random but orderly and predictable; replayed, evolution would inevitably result is a similar world as the present one," described in 2006 by the paleontologist Simon Conway-Morris.

The non-primed volunteers mostly preferred the traditional theory of evolution.  But the primed subjects, who had the topic of uncertainty in their lives fresh in their minds, were 15 percent more likely to pick intelligent design (#2), and 25 percent more likely to support a non-religious theory of ordered evolution (#3).

The study's authors, Professor Bastiaan Rutjens, et. al, conclude:

In sum, although it has been argued that science and religion are fundamentally opposed explanations of life, it seems that they can be deployed interchangeably to restore order. As we have seen in this study, framing Darwin's Theory of Evolution as depicting an orderly and predictable process reduced the need to bolster belief in a supernatural agent. In other words, increases in religious belief under threat are nullified when other (even science-based) options to restore order are present.

So perhaps resistance to evolutionary theory is based less on one's beliefs and more on an inherent human fear of uncertainty.  

That conclusion brings to mind the infamous quote by renowned physicist Albert Einstein, "I, at any rate, am convinced that [God] does not throw dice."

While it's easy to dismiss such research as trivial or inconsequential, it's important to bear in mind that the swing of the evolution debate determines a slew of measures, including public schools curriculum, college research grants, and more.  By determining that part of the mental roadblock to evolution is in the uncertainty, college and public schools instructors may be able to present the theory in a less threatening way, and at last convince the skeptical public of this theory that the majority of professional scientists believe there is conclusive evidence to support.



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Proper Scientific Method
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 9/28/2010 12:11:35 PM , Rating: 2
The difference between Evolution and Creationism is that one uses proper scientific method, and the other does not.

The development of Evolution as a science is based on proper scientific method. Observe nature, create a hypothesis, test the hypothesis (by observing nature), adjust the hypothesis for anomalies, retest, adjust, etc., WITH Peer Review, most importantly.

Creationism uses the logical fallacy of Rational Constructionism, which is, embrace a conclusion first, then find evidence that supports your conclusion, and refute evidence that does not. This is why Creationists always accuse Evolutionists as having an atheist agenda - in other words, evolutionists are rational constructionists, too, which makes it okay for creationists to be rational constructionists.

Anyway, having studied philosophy, law and political science, you didn't need to do a study to convince anyone that creationists are reactionaries clinging to a simpler past, as happens in every leap forward in social, political, scientific, etc advancement. Its just taken 150 years for them to start moving ahead, since the movement is losing steam now.

Way to inflate your post numbers, btw.




RE: Proper Scientific Method
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 9/28/2010 12:18:13 PM , Rating: 4
Btw, just to be clear:
quote:
Today, most Ph.D instructors in life-science related fields believe that evolution was the driving force that created life on Earth


No they don't. They don't believe evolution created life. They assert that evolution is a method for life (once created) to adapt to its environment.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By gamerk2 on 9/28/2010 2:24:54 PM , Rating: 2
Correct; Abiogenesis is the field that studies the Creation of life.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By PresidentThomasJefferson on 9/28/2010 7:39:33 PM , Rating: 2
Here's irrefutable proof of evolution video by a PhD biologist using DNA evidence, retroviral DNA etc citing work of Brown University biologist Ken Miller

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fGkFuHIu0
-quick 10 minute video, latest DNA proofs that creationists can't refute


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By morphologia on 9/29/2010 3:12:48 PM , Rating: 2
What do you mean, "creationists can't refute?" Their whole argument is based on ambiguity and wild assumption. They can refute anything they want, no matter how much sense it makes.

Remember, logical thinking is not a legal requirement. It probably should be, but there you are.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Albert J on 10/3/2010 5:02:34 AM , Rating: 1
Please explain how by random mutations necessary for Darwinism to work;

1) it is possible to 'evolve' complex cellular pumps, the parts of which all have to be present at the same time to operate correctly
2) The Cambrian Explosion, proved by the fossil record, in which life forms literally exploded into the biosphere, which is physically impossible if Evolution is the sole driving force of life on earth (no one contends that species can't learn, aka 'evolve', or we are wasting education $$$; what is in question is how life got here and how it diversified)
3) how do you get from a field mouse to a human with only 300 genes, (PS gene modulation infers an 'Author' of a code for modulation signal processing + an arbiter of that code's rules and modifications -'Windows' didn't just randomly appear after millions of random number generators - you loose on that argument alone! :) )
4) Why when fruit flies were bombarded with radiation did only weaker versions of the flies appear? Where is the 'stronger' genes in mutations caused by radiation?
5) How come after millions of years the big brained marine mammals have not invented beer, much less even figured out how to drink one? :)


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By kd9280 on 10/3/2010 10:37:18 AM , Rating: 2
1) The parts of the complex cellular pumps likely served another purpose prior to being part of the pumps. This is just a rehash of the bacterial flagellum argument that Michael Behe is so fond of.

2) Oxygenation in the ocean and the air caused a tremendous increase in the number of creatures. Evolution was not the sole driving force of life on Earth. It's like adding fuel to a fire.

3) I'm not entirely sure what you're talking about here.

4) Radioactive mutations are not the same thing as genetic mutations. In fact, we know radiation causes debilitating mutations, that's not anything new. Genetic mutations happen all the time, and the majority are neutral.

5) Your facetiousness aside (I admit I laughed,) humans aren't really all that different from other creatures. You're just looking at us from the perspective of a 'big-brained' primate.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By flatrock on 9/28/2010 1:56:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The development of Evolution as a science is based on proper scientific method. Observe nature, create a hypothesis, test the hypothesis (by observing nature), adjust the hypothesis for anomalies, retest, adjust, etc., WITH Peer Review, most importantly.


What the scientific method will show you is that the THEORY of evolution cannot be proved or disproved. That is why it is and will remain a theory. You can come up with a lot of supporting evidence, but the theory is sufficiently vague and broad that it cannot be proved. You can come up with things that contradict things that others said supported evoloution, but that doesn't disprove evoloution.

What SCIENCE shows is is that evoloution is a theory that helps us explain the world around us, but when it comes down to it a leap of faith is required to believe in it.

quote:
Creationism uses the logical fallacy of Rational Constructionism, which is, embrace a conclusion first, then find evidence that supports your conclusion, and refute evidence that does not.


You mean they observed something, came up with a theory to explain it, and then go about proving or disproving it? Sounds kind of like the scientific method. The tendency to discount things that don't support your conclusions is a human failing and is not limited to supporters of any one theory. Your ignoring that is plagues strict evoloutionists is an example of it.

Science is a dicipline by which we try to explain the world around us. Evoloution is one scientific theory which is well supported, though since it's extremely broad and basically disprovable, that is kind of inevitible. That's a logical result of the nature of the theory, not actual proof.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By tng on 9/28/2010 2:33:38 PM , Rating: 1
Evolution will become a fact when science can point to a species (large scale, not bacterial or viral) that has changed enough to become an entirely new species.

Even after thousands of years of dogs as our BFF it can't be pointed out that they have evolved into a new species.

Not saying that it doesn't or will not happen, but just the same evolution is still a theory until it happens.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By TeXWiller on 9/28/2010 3:16:02 PM , Rating: 2
Would the recent proposed speciation of the killer whale be sufficient for you? Also, it's very hard to bypass the Darwin's finches.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By tng on 9/28/10, Rating: 0
RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Squigybits on 9/28/2010 3:51:55 PM , Rating: 1
Moving the goal posts!


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Sazar on 9/28/2010 4:05:02 PM , Rating: 2
Gravity is also called THEORY (i.e. Gravitational THEORY).

Evolution is an on-going process and there are plenty of examples where you can look to and see branches including the example of the previous poster. What exactly are you looking for?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 5:10:30 PM , Rating: 2
It's hilarious to see the response of "gravity is just a theory" when someone makes a comment that cannot be countered by any evolutionists. He asked for proof of one animal becoming another, and no-one provided any.

He has a good point. For thousands of years we have been 1 on 1 with dogs. NOT ONCE has a dog produced a non dog. Somehow, changes within the species or kids is enough proof for evolution? I don't think so... Evolution is psudo-science. It cannot be observed in the natural world.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Flail on 9/28/2010 6:33:50 PM , Rating: 2
Wow. You don't even know the difference between micro and macro evolution, do you?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: 0
RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Squigybits on 9/28/2010 6:53:41 PM , Rating: 2
That is because you are using nonscientific language, rhetoric and a straw man argument to ask a question that makes no sense. A dog will always be a dog per our language construction. If it looses it's legs and slithers on the ground we would still call it a dog. Your point is irrelevant.
Look at the fossil record and look at existing creatures that have rudimentary limbs and pelvises where they are not needed, like some whales and glass lizards. That is evolution in process! There is no other explanation.
Now take a small part of what I have written here out of context and post a response that makes it sound like I am saying the opposite of what I really am. Then ignore the rest. You do know that people can read what you are responding to correct?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 7:49:28 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Look at the fossil record and look at existing creatures that have rudimentary limbs and pelvises where they are not needed, like some whales and glass lizards. That is evolution in process!

Whales have an unnecessary pelvis?! LOL. Nice try, but they wouldn't be able to birth an offspring without those bones. What next, are you going to say that we have a vestigial tail bone and appendix.
quote:
There is no other explanation

*There is no other explanation that I agree with. <--- There, I fixed that for you.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By PresidentThomasJefferson on 9/28/2010 8:34:19 PM , Rating: 5
For those ignorant in biology:
1) PELVISES ARE NOT NEEDED to give birth.. there are several species of Fish & SHARKs that give LIVE birth --and they don't have pelvises.. as a matter of fact, pelvises just get in the way & why humans had a 20% death rate among women giving birth because the pelvis is too small/gets in the way of the head being too big for the pelvis

2) There are fully functional cases of humans born w/ prehensile tails & bones in them (see photos at medical school library here http://www.anatomyatlases.org/AnatomicVariants/Ske...

3) Chickens have dormant teeth DNA (their dormant DNA was activated & they grew teeth) as in these chickens:
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=m...

& UCLA researchers also activated those dormant teeth DNA in chickens here:
http://www.acfnewsource.org/science/dino_rebirth.h...

4) Whales/dophins born w/ hindlimbs can be seen in photos here:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.h...

More at
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section2.h...
===
Here's irrefutable proof of evolution video by a PhD biologist using DNA evidence, retroviral DNA etc citing work of Brown University biologist Ken Miller --more solid than DNA proof that convicts people in court

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fGkFuHIu0 -quick 10 minute video, latest DNA proofs that creationists can't refute

2) The 'humans must be recent or else they'll be 50 billion people long ago' is false because it shows creationists are simpletons w/ no understanding of ecology/biology.. what limits population growth/size is FOOD & WATER OF THE LOCAL REGION/ECOLOGY --that's why there's not 1 BILLION desert snakes in the desert.. a population maximum size is limited NOT BY AREA BUT BY HOW MUCH FOOD(PREY ANIMALS & EDIBLE PLANTS) in the region.. as well as local diseases...

Famines killing millions were frequent & common throughout most of human history(Irish potato famine was just a small one) as well as plagues (killed 33% of Europe)..and before the 20th century of modern medicine, 20% of women died in childbirth

Hell, it was predicted decades ago that there would be world food shortages/famines but it was averted because crop yields were increased 20-50x(depending on species) by FDR-trained Nobel Prize winner Norman Borlaug, who's gov research created the "Green Revolution" that multiplied food production.

3) There's been plenty of new species that's arisen (a species is any population that can't or doens't interbreed with another population, usually because DNA has changed too much)'http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.htm


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Proper Scientific Method
By StevoLincolnite on 9/29/2010 12:44:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The same site you provide as sources mention that human embryos have tails during the early development stages LOL.


You seriously don't believe the junk you write do you?
Google it, it will give you access to the largest repository of information known to mankind in order to "enlighten" yourself.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/10, Rating: -1
RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Fritzr on 9/28/2010 10:24:55 PM , Rating: 5
Don't bother further with Quadrillity.

All his multiple pages of response boil down to:
My explanation is correct due to my belief.
There is no other explanation that I agree with


Say what you like, but unless you are supporting his beliefs, his response will explain why his beliefs say you are wrong :P

He is very good at explaining that contradictory evidence cannot exist because it wouldn't support the right answer :)


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 12:50:26 AM , Rating: 4
One of the cornerstones of debate is that you do not invalidate your own assertions.

Such as
"All canids are related and descended from a common canid ancestor" (You state this is true)
"All great apes are related and descended from a common ape ancestor" (You state this is false--reason given is that humans are great apes+humans are not related to apes=the statement equivalent to your canid truth is in fact false)

So which is correct?
Multiple species of similar appearance with minimal genetic difference are related (your statement)
OR
Multiple species of similar appearance with minimal genetic difference are not related (your response to someone else repeating your statement with a different set of animals)

Just wondering...


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/10, Rating: -1
RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/29/2010 7:39:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Do you live in La-La land?! I NEVER said humans are great apes. Humans are not animals. Apes are animals. We are not the same KIND as animals.
An ape is any member of the Hominoidea superfamily of primates, including humans. Due to its ambiguous nature, the term ape has been deemphasized in favor of Hominoidea as a means of describing taxonomic relationships.

Under the current classification system there are two families of hominoids:

* the family Hylobatidae consists of 4 genera and 14 species of gibbon, including the Lar Gibbon and the Siamang, collectively known as the lesser apes.
* the family Hominidae consisting of chimpanzees, gorillas, humans and orangutans[1][2] collectively known as the great apes.

A few other primates, such as the Barbary Ape, have the word ape in their common names (usually to indicate lack of a tail), but they are not regarded as true apes.

Except for gorillas and humans, all true apes are agile climbers of trees. They are best described as omnivorous, their diet consisting of fruit, including grass seeds, and in most cases other animals, either hunted or scavenged, along with anything else available and easily digested. They are native to Africa and Asia, although humans have spread to all parts of the world.

Most nonhuman ape species are rare or endangered. The chief threat to most of the endangered species is loss of tropical rainforest habitat, though some populations are further imperiled by hunting for bushmeat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ape


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Magare on 9/29/2010 7:46:35 PM , Rating: 1
Humans are animals. That is in the literal sense of the word. As far as I know there are three types of living organisms on Earth: animals, plants and fungi. Since humans are neither plants nor fungi, that puts us right in the animal kingdom.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 8:17:25 PM , Rating: 2
Yet we are the only ones that speak/harness electricity/ pilot aircraft... can you not see the differences between Animals and human beings? Yeah we are similar to apes/other animals; this could just as well be proof for a common designer!

Calling yourself an animal gives you rights to act like one. I see this as very dangerous thought processes.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Magare on 9/29/2010 11:07:29 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I can see the diference - we are the most inteligent animals. Nevertheless, we are animals. If you do not consider yourself an animal - then what are you, are you an oak, or are you a mushroom?

Define acting as animal, please.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By mcnabney on 9/29/2010 11:22:13 AM , Rating: 3
Just remember, people that think like Quadrillity have been known to fly passenger planes into buildings when they get really upset.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 1:40:33 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Just remember, people that think like Quadrillity have been known to fly passenger planes into buildings when they get really upset.

How can you make an accusation like that? Had I called you all infidels and made death threats; that would give you a perfectly legitimate reason to accuse me of terrorism.

So now being a Christian makes you a terrorist? Unbelievable...


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By eskimospy on 9/29/2010 1:44:03 PM , Rating: 2
Remember guys, telling people they are anti-American is A-OK, but telling a decent, god fearing guy like our good friend Quadrillity that he shares attributes with other religious fundamentalists who became terrorists is unbelievable.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By morphologia on 9/29/2010 3:15:29 PM , Rating: 2
Being Christian only makes you a terrorist if you try to force people to vote the way you want by means of misinformation and threats of violence. This is something that those so-called "grassroots" organizations that are polluting my prime-time TV watching should keep in mind.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 3:40:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Being Christian only makes you a terrorist if you try to force people to vote the way you want by means of misinformation and threats of violence.

Proof or it doesn't happen. And even if you do have a specific event in mind, it does not (in any way) represent the Christian community. Are you using stereotypes again?

quote:
so-called "grassroots" organizations that are polluting my prime-time TV watching should keep in mind.

Do you understand that Christian "grassroots" are what formed this entire country? It makes some people furious to know that the majority of our founding fathers were devout Christians.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By transamdude95 on 9/29/2010 4:18:39 PM , Rating: 2
bible - proof or it doesn't happen. god - proof or it doesn't happen. 'Proof or it doesn't happen' is your favorite phrase, yet you simply ignore it when it comes to your own thoughts. And, please note, I use 'your own' very loosely.

christian grassroots formed the country? Majority of Founding Fathers were christians? What country are you talking about? Certainly not the US. Most of the Founding Fathers were opposed to the bible and the teachings of christianity. They were students of the European enlightenment. Stop trying to rewrite history, monkey.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By jesuslovesyou on 10/2/2010 2:53:27 AM , Rating: 2
well, it becomes obvious that not only the evolutionary sheep posting on here ignorant of science as concerns the subject of this article, but some appear to be ignorant of american history as well. That may well be due to the fact that the same entities that push aesops explanation for the origins of things also push a completely distorted revision of american history. Making statements of the kind you made reflects quite poorly on you and you training/knowledge of american history and the subjects of that history; the founders of this nation.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By kd9280 on 10/3/2010 10:42:41 AM , Rating: 2
Thomas Jefferson - "I have examined all the known superstitions of the world and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth."

John Adams - "The Government of the United States is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion."

Adams again - "The doctrine of the divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

Thomas Paine - "Among the most detesable villains in history, you could not find one worse than Moses. Here is an order, attributed to 'God' to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers, and to debauch and rape the daughters. I would not dare so dishonor my Creator's name by (attaching) it to this filthy book (the Bible)."

James Madison - "What influence in fact have Christian ecclesiastical establishments had on civil society? In many instances they have been upholding the thrones of political tyranny. In no instance have they been seen as the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty have found in the clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate liberty, does not need the clergy."

Not all the founding fathers were Christians. Some were Puritan Deists if anything, believing in a Creator not necessarily attached to the Christian beliefs, but compatible with them. Our country was not founded on Christian belief, in fact the Establishment Clause was set out specifically to combat the kind of problems that non-Christians had with a solely Christian empire.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By teddlybar2 on 10/3/2010 4:49:38 PM , Rating: 2
If you're going to quote Jefferson, please make sure your quote is accurate. This particular quote has been known to be false for quite some time. The last portion of it is is legitimate and comes from Jefferson's Notes on the State of Virginia, Query XVII. The first portion however seems to be something that has only been around since the late 1990's.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By kd9280 on 10/3/2010 7:09:45 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, you're right. I took one example of Jefferson's quotes and it happened to be a fake.

Regardless, Jefferson denied the divinity of Jesus, but he thought the teachings in the Bible were a good source of morality.

Jefferson - "Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between Man & his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, & not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church & State."


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By LRonaldHubbs on 9/29/2010 9:54:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It makes some people furious to know that the majority of our founding fathers were devout Christians.

No, it makes some people furious to hear idiots keep claiming that because IT ISN'T TRUE.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By acer905 on 9/28/2010 7:59:43 PM , Rating: 2
Not to be nit-picky, but it all comes down to how much genetic difference constitutes a new species. Originally there was one "type" of dog, and it certainly was not a Pomeranian. However, due to selective breeding over the last few hundred (or more) years we have been able to create over 200 different "types" of dog, which can be identified by a DNA test. This is something that has actually been used before in papers on evolution (see scientific american article: http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=a... )

It all depends on what it takes to classify something as a new species, which in itself is something that is defined by scientists...


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 8:55:55 PM , Rating: 5
So, you are agreeing then that humans and chimpanzees have a common ancestor? We share incredible amounts of features, genetics, mannerisms, not to mention all of the fossil records that show that we do. Chimpanzees and humans are both the same "kinds", as they are both classified as Great Apes.

Cool.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 9:21:19 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
You believing that you came from an ape accounts for your behavior here haha.


My behavior here? I think I have been nothing but civil. Disagreeing with what I say does not mean that I am acting out of line.

quote:
An ape and a human are not the same kind.


Well then, what is the definition of a kind?(An exercise in futility, I know). If a dog, wolf, and fox are all the same "kind", how are Chimps and Humans not the same "kind"?

By the way, that statement is actually FACTUALLY false, humans are classified as Great Apes.

Here's a pretty good video to watch. No scientific explanations, but I strongly encourage you to watch it. It's pretty moving.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vg4AjD1fUaw


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/10, Rating: 0
RE: Proper Scientific Method
By acer905 on 9/28/2010 8:57:35 PM , Rating: 2
Grey areas indeed. The simple fact that we as a collective are the ones who have classified everything into their respective Kingdoms, Phylums,Classes, Orders, Families, Genuses and Species, and mostly based upon findings from years past comparing physical differences instead of genetic makeup. However, we are now trying to create a complete genome of all life (an extensive, nigh endless task) which will finally give us the ability to accurately place organisms. Once we can do real time tracking of genetic drift, we will be able to assign real values to the amount of difference needed in order to be a different species, and see firsthand any evolution that occurs.

This article, from 2002:http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2833-humanch...

That article states that we share around 93.6% of our genetic structure with chimps, and our classification system breaks apart at the Tribe level (which is a sublevel oft ignored between Family and Genus). Where would two creatures with 99% genetic similarity break apart in our structure, and what would it take to cause a 1% genetic drift?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 8:42:57 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
That article states that we share around 93.6% of our genetic structure with chimps,

It's also interesting to note that the number has dropped over the years from 99% to (i guess current) 93.6%. I'm sorry, but even .01 percent genetic difference is A LOT. Let alone 7 percent differences.

Did you know that cats have a 90% DNA similarity with humans?
quote:
Where would two creatures with 99% genetic similarity break apart in our structure, and what would it take to cause a 1% genetic drift?

I'm not sure if you believe evolution to be true, but if you do: We can't say that DNA similarities have anything to do with likeness. DNA isn't an algebraic math equation where you can solve for X lol. Don't let geneticists lie to your face, they can't even scratch the surface as to how DNA actually works. (yes we have discovered major milestones in our time, but we are still very clueless to the whole mystery of it.)

I would say that DNA shows a common designer more than anything.


By skepticallizzie on 10/4/2010 2:20:44 PM , Rating: 2
Quadrillity-
I really am being genuine and not at all trying to be offensive. For this particular post- lets all pretend for a second that there is a god. My problem with ID is this:
1- to believe in ID, you believe in a conscious plan to make human beings, along with animals, etc.
2- What proof is there that god has consciousness, or any other human characteristic?
3- Again, there would have to be a moment where this god said to himself: ok, theres got to be something better then a chimp... i will make a man (adam and eve). Why havent there been any other developments from this highly conscious entity since that moment? We are far from efficient and far from biologically stable. So why wouldn't god make a better human being then?

Again, I really want to understand why anyone would believe in something that has projected human qualities when we ourselves, as humans, are the ones who made him up to start with. This is a genuine statement. I am not bashing christianity- i just want to understand how people can blindly trust in something without any legitamite proof.

I mean, the bible has great wonderful stories, metaphors, archetypes for life. But it doesn't necessarily mean that it is the truth.

i have so many questions and so little answers.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Fritzr on 9/28/2010 10:17:35 PM , Rating: 2
Actually the modern dog is the result of speciation. It was a Wolf or Wild Dog species that gave rise to the modern domestic dog that is distinct from the other canine lineages. So the new species you are sneering at is the proof licking your hand :P


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 8:47:04 AM , Rating: 1
What exactly are you trying to prove here? That a wolf, wild dog, and domestic dog are the same kind? They are all the same KIND OF ANIMAL. How stupid do you have to be to not get that?!

I'll make a list for you:

a) Domestic cat
b) Mountain lion
c) tiger
D) elephant

Which one of these is not the same kind? How about lets use some common sense this time.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 6:25:33 PM , Rating: 2
So not one of you can reply to this?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By kd9280 on 9/30/2010 11:32:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What exactly are you trying to prove here? That a wolf, wild dog, and domestic dog are the same kind? They are all the same KIND OF ANIMAL. How stupid do you have to be to not get that?!

I'll make a list for you:

a) Domestic cat
b) Mountain lion
c) tiger
D) elephant

quote:
So not one of you can reply to this?

I'll bite.

a) Domestic Cat : Species = Felis catus : Genus = Felis : Family = Felidae : Order = Carnivora : Class = Mammalia
b) Mountain Lion : Species = Puma concolor : Genus = Puma : Family = Felidae : Order = Carnivora : Class = Mammalia
c) Tiger : Species = Panthera tigris : Genus = Panthera : Family = Felidae : Order = Carnivora : Class = Mammalia
d(a) African Bush Elephant : Species = Loxodonta concolor : Genus = Loxodonta : Family = Elephantidae : Order = Proboscidea : Class = Mammalia
d(b) African Forest Elephant : Species = Loxodonta cyclotis : Genus = Loxodonta : Family = Elephantidae : Order = Proboscidea : Class = Mammalia
d(c) Asian Elephant : Species = Elephas maximus : Genus = Elephas : Family = Elephantidae : Order = Proboscidea : Class = Mammalia

They're all mammals.
By order and family, all of d are Proboscidea Elephantidae and a, b, and c are all Carnivora Felidae.
By genus, a, b, and c are Felis, d(a) and d(b) are Loxodonta, and d(c) is Elephus.
By species, they're all different.

So my answer, which is the different 'kind'?
a, b, c, and d are all different populations of creatures.

(By the way, your failing to separate the 'elephant kind' into its two genuses proves how flimsy the term 'kind' is)

Also, just to be complete.

Gray Wolf : Species = Canis lupis : Genus = Canis : Tribe = Canini : Subfamily = Caninae : Family = Canidae : Order = Carnivora : Class = Mammalia
African Wild Dog : Species = Lycaon pictus : Genus = Lycaon : Family = Canidae : Order = Carnivora : Class = Mammalia
Domestic Dog : Subspecies = Canis lupis familiaris : Species = Canis lupis : Genus = Canis : Tribe = Canini : Subfamily = Caninae : Family = Canidae : Order = Carnivora : Class = Mammalia

So actually you're wrong with them too. Domestic dogs are wolves, but they are not the same species or genus as wild dogs (I went with African Wild Dog because the term 'wild dog' is very ambiguous.)


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Magare on 9/30/2010 1:01:50 PM , Rating: 2
Don't bother explaining this guy. He's not going to get it anyway. Earlier he said that "a trout and a swordfish are the same kind of animal" just because they are both fishes. That's like saying that a cow and a tiger are the same kind of animals because they are both mammals.

Guys like Quadrillity are actually detrimental to Christianity. They turn people away from Christianity with their ridiculous and ignorant statements about the natural world we live in. Guys like him seem to live in an imaginary world full of miracles, giants and so on just because the bible says so. Just for the record: I was born and raised with Christian traditions and I was even baptized. I have never been religious neither have my family. I was considering myself agnostic. After having some long discussions with a colleague of mine (a young earth creationist - born again Christian) I got turned into complete atheist. For what I know about Christianity - it is a personal relation between a person and Jesus Christ. All the rest (specifically the Old Testament) is just mythology. Interesting fictitious stories with some good morals and values, but they are not to be taken literally. The important thing is their message.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By wgbutler on 9/30/2010 1:23:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

After having some long discussions with a colleague of mine (a young earth creationist - born again Christian) I got turned into complete atheist.


This has to be one of the dumbest reasons to be an atheist that I have ever heard of.

If I were of the same mentality then the sophomoric and asinine remarks from the obnoxious atheists that inhabit this forum would force me to forsake the human race, become a monk and live in solitary confinement eating only bread crumbs and water at the top of Mount Everest.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Magare on 9/30/2010 2:09:53 PM , Rating: 2
Show me a better reason to become an atheist. After hearing statements like "trout and swordfish are the same kind" and "the men have fewer ribs than women" (not from this tread) and "that our Solar System has Sun, planets and many stars" (also not from this tread I can't think of a better reason to become an atheist.

Given your reaction, one can safely assume that you are one of those "religious nuts" and those are the people on this forum that have "sophomoric and asinine remarks". If however, my assumptions are incorrect, then you should be choosing your words better.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By wgbutler on 9/30/2010 2:34:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

Show me a better reason to become an atheist.


The reason why one should be an adherent of any belief system should be because the evidence for the belief system in question makes that belief system the most likely to be true. This is especially true if the belief system has the potentially enormous ramifications of an afterlife.

quote:

After hearing statements like "trout and swordfish are the same kind" and "the men have fewer ribs than women" (not from this tread) and "that our Solar System has Sun, planets and many stars" (also not from this tread I can't think of a better reason to become an atheist.


And after reading statements like

quote:

At some future period, not very distant as measured by centuries, the civilised races of man will almost certainly exterminate, and replace the savage races throughout the world. At the same time the anthropomorphous apes… will no doubt be exterminated. The break between man and his nearest allies will then be wider, for it will intervene between man in a more civilised state, as we may hope, even than the Caucasian, and some ape as low as a baboon, instead of as now between the negro or Australian and the gorilla...

(Charles Darwin)


Really, with logic like this I can't think of a better reason to become a theist.

Given your reaction, one can safely assume that you are one of those "angry atheists" and would fit in very well with the other lemmings on this forum. If however, my assumptions are incorrect, then you should be choosing your words better!


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Magare on 9/30/2010 3:12:22 PM , Rating: 2
Your assumptions are correct. I am an angry atheist. However, to make it clear - I am not angry at all religious people in general. I have absolutely nothing against people being religious and spiritual and having faith in a supreme deity. That's why we have freedom of religion here. What makes me angry and sad at the same time is when some religious people (luckily they are minority) disregard the enormous amount of evidence that the earth is more than 6000 years old and spread around a lot more fairy tale nonsense based on nothing but strictly literal INTERPRETATION of the Old Testament.

What a person of different religion or of no religion at all would think of Christianity if that person encounters a young earth creationist? They would ask themselves whether all Christians are so 13th century? Of course that would be a wrong conclusion just like it is wrong to conclude that all Muslims are terrorists. Just as few Muslim terrorist make a bad name for Islam, few young earth creationists make a bad name for Christianity. Nobody wants to have their religion associated with bunch of loonies.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By wgbutler on 9/30/2010 3:24:33 PM , Rating: 2
Fair enough. I appreciate your zeal for the truth and the scientific method.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/30/2010 7:49:15 PM , Rating: 2
I get called a loony because you don't agree with my opinions? You are a great help to our society. I have tried way too many times to make light of the fact that evidence will always be subjective, because it is opinions of the facts.

If you think evidence = fact, then why do scientists use evidence to support ideas? It's like saying "I'm using fact to prove fact". It doesn't work that way. You use subjective opinion to SUPPORT facts. Otherwise, whenever a conclusion turns out to be wrong, wouldn't they be changing facts instead of changing how they viewed the facts?

Are we changing facts, or are we changing evidence? My point, which never gets understood AT ALL, is that evidence can and will ALWAYS support different conclusions. You cant sit on one side of an argument and say, "Nope, I'm right, and you're wrong! Deal with it!". Is that really how you think this world is supposed to work?

Just because you have a pure hatred for my conclusions doesn't give you ANY right to call me a fairly tale believing loon. I could do the same as you and point, laugh, and say, "look at him! he's too stubborn to bow his head to a higher power!" But I don't, I respectfully disagree with you opinion while trying to FIGHT my way out of a corner when other tramp all over my right to express myself. That's a really hateful way to treat people...

You act as if I am plotting terror attacks just because I have (ample) reason to believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old. Give me a break..


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Magare on 10/1/2010 3:42:09 PM , Rating: 2
You get called loony not just because I don't agree with your opinions, but you don't agree with your own opinion as well. You say that humans and chimps (for one example) are not the same kind, and then you say that trout and swordfish are the same kind. Let me remind you that trout differs physiologically and biologically from swordfish much more than chimp from human.

Talking about facts? Let me give you some facts:
1) Andromeda Galaxy exists.
2) The distance to Andromeda Galaxy is approximately 2,500,000 light-years.
3) Speed of light in vacuum a constant and is equal to approx. 300,000 km/sec (or approx. 186,000 miles/sec.
4) Interstellar space is very close to vacuum.
5) We can see (observe) the Andromeda Galaxy (refer to (1)).
6) In order for (5) to be true (fact), which it is, light MUST have traveled for at least 2,500,000 years to reach Earth.
7) Andromeda galaxy and all its stars are a lot more than 10,000 years old.

How do these FACTS fit with the 6 day creation myth, which supposedly had happened some 6,000 years ago?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/30/2010 1:52:27 PM , Rating: 2
You cannot be serious... Have you not read a single word of the discussion about kinds, species, and classification systems?!! I DID NOT ASK FOR A BREAKDOWN BY CLASSIFICATION.

A Kindergartner could have answered the question that I posed. An ELEPHANT is NOT the same KIND of animal as a cat (be it a large cat, or a domestic). Are they all mammals? Duh, are you really trying to call me that stupid? You act as if I am don't already know how to classify life. I guess this is the situation where your big ol' scientific brain is too smart to answer simple questions.

I DID not ask for classification breakdown; and as I said earlier, Not one single system has ever been proven sufficient and universal for all life on this planet.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By kd9280 on 9/30/2010 5:55:17 PM , Rating: 2
Are you saying observation is enough to declare a 'kind'?

Are slow-worms, snakes, and eels the same 'kind' of creature? They all look the same, after all.

Did you know that hyenas are actually of the suborder Feliforma? A Kindergarten student would see this and think it's a dog, not a cat.
Did you know that bears, seals, and walruses are of the suborder Caniforma? Try telling a Kindergarten student that a bear is a dog. Even funnier, tell them that a walrus is a dog.
Did you know that civets and otters aren't in the same suborder (the former is Feliforma, the latter Caniforma)? Show these two animals to a Kindergarten student, and they'll swear up and down they're the same kind of creature.

That's only a few examples from one order (Carnivora.) I've looked through most of the different orders in the Mammalian class of animals, and some of the things are very interesting to see. I didn't even get to other classes, but I imagine they're just as crazy.

The word 'kind' means jack. Creationists twist and manipulate what they consider similar 'kinds' just because they need to do it. A class is a class. Classification is there for a reason, so a scientist cannot say 'all cats are the same.'


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Fritzr on 9/28/2010 9:58:35 PM , Rating: 2
Actually it is called a Theory because the evidence is overwhelmingly in favor of it being correct.

Other theories include the one postulating that there is a high likelihood that life will be found on the third planet of the star Sol. There is an overwhelming amount of evidence in favor of finding life on that planet, but under the rules of science it remains a Theory. Like Gravity the evidence is sufficient to raise it to the level of the theories called Laws, but even at that level errors are found and modifications are made.

Science asks questions and questions the answers. Religion answers questions and shoots those who doubt. Totally different approach to understanding the world and putting that understanding to use in designing new conveniences for the ?intelligence? inhabiting Sol 3.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By kd9280 on 9/28/2010 3:41:33 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Evolution will become a fact when science can point to a species (large scale, not bacterial or viral) that has changed enough to become an entirely new species.


Why do you discount bacteria and viruses? These are species, correct? Why is their evolution not 'acceptable'?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 5:13:37 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Why do you discount bacteria and viruses? These are species, correct? Why is their evolution not 'acceptable'?

because it is the same kind of living organism. A bacteria has never produced a tree.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 6:38:15 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
because it is the same kind of living organism. A bacteria has never produced a tree.

Yet another perfect example of how your arguments against evolution only prove that you have absolutely no understanding of evolution.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 7:31:24 PM , Rating: 1
So bacteria only transforms into different kinds of animals when you add millions/billions of magical years the the equation?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 8:47:26 PM , Rating: 5
The fact that you actually think that evolutionary theory says a bacteria can directly turn into a tree is so fundamentally stupid, that I am at a loss for words. I have trouble believing that anyone could have thoroughly studied the material and legitimately come to that conclusion. You saying things like that leaves two possibilities, you either haven't studied the material, and are bearing false witness against evolution with willful ignorance and baseless attacks, or you actually did study the material but couldn't grasp an understanding of it. Either way, you continually show that you do not understand what the theory actually implies, and what it's mechanisms are actually capable of.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 9/29/2010 7:49:38 AM , Rating: 3
Oh, I forgot you guys also believe the world is only 4,000 years old.

See, here is the insidiousness of the creation argument: If evolution falls, then they have to attack chemistry, geology and physics, since they make no sense in a creationist worldview. Those are harder targets, though. It would be almost impossible for a rational constructionist to attack those successfully.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 9:08:46 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If evolution falls, then they have to attack chemistry, geology and physics, since they make no sense in a creationist worldview.

Ever think that's it's your opinion and not a fact?

Which type of evolution are you talking about?

Cosmic, Chemical, Stellar, Organic, Macro, or micro (which is the only observable and testable)?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By adhan24 on 9/28/2010 8:21:49 PM , Rating: 3
I completely agree w/ you. Viral mutation proves evolution. In fact mutations are one of the driving forces of evolution. Sickle-cell anemia is one example of a mutation that was "beneficial." Although this genetic mutation can lead to an early death (life expectancy is just under 50 yrs), the presence of the two sickle-cell anemia alleles renders a carrier who is resistant to malaria. Is it any wonder that maps of sickle-cell anemia and malaria prevalence in Africa coincide? Additionally, this mutation allows the carrier to reach an age where he/she can propagate which would be less likely if they were not resistant to malaria (thus it is deemed "beneficial").


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Squigybits on 9/28/2010 7:16:15 PM , Rating: 2
You do so love that straw man. Show me one scientist that says that A bacteria will produce a tree?
Despite your obviously uninformed and leading question there is fossil evidence of early bacterial evolution. Rather than a soup of free floating bacteria they started to become organized and create more complex structures. They are called Stromatolites. Though they are not trees they are a more complex form of bacteria.
Now your response, if you respond, will to be to move the goal posts.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Fritzr on 9/28/2010 10:37:44 PM , Rating: 2
Modern forms of highly evolved single cell life acting as a multicellular organism include slime molds and some paramecia.

The next step for them is to organize into a cooperative and live beyond the fruiting stage.

Hmm those would be Sponges and similar life forms

If a sponge type had some cells work as muscle cells you can add tentacles and waving flaps to move around ... the proto-jellyfish and sponges that wander around are even simpler.

You can find examples of intermediate evolutionary lifeforms all over the world. It only requires you to start analyzing what you learn.


By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 9/29/2010 7:52:14 AM , Rating: 2
That is the problem with rational constructionism: They will poo-poo the fossil record when you can show how the theory was built on it, but quote the fossil record, or gaps in it, when it benefits their position.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By flatrock on 9/28/2010 4:10:49 PM , Rating: 2
That wouldn't prove or disprove evolution. It might prove the theory that natural selection can produce such large changes within our observable record as opposed to such splits into different species happening farther back into the primordial ooze.

Just change the scope of when the evolution occurred and all arguments disappear.

Evolution cannot be proved or disproved. Nor is there much practical, scientific use in arguing between random evolution and an Intelligent Design which we don't really understand. It doesn't really matter scientifically wether there is a designer that set everything in motion or it's just randomness loosely constrained by Natural Selection.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 5:21:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It doesn't really matter scientifically wether there is a designer that set everything in motion or it's just randomness loosely constrained by Natural Selection.

It may not matter scientifically, but it matters to me. I like to see proof for a God that puts his money where his mouth is. If he says that he destroyed the earth with a flood, then I want to see proof for it (which I do see proof). If he says that he created everything in the universe in 6 days, then I expect to see evidence of this (which I do)

Just look at population growth, for example. If it were true that humans have been around for millions of years, then we would be at, what like 50 or more billion people at least by now.

What about magnetism? The earth is gradually losing its magnetic field. IF it were billions of years old, wouldn't the magnetism be so strong that life would be impossible?

Not that I am saying my opinion on the matter or any more valid then anyone else, but there comes a point where you either believe in God or you don't. And if you believe in him, why not believe his word (literally word for word). Wouldn't anything else be undermining him?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 6:37:17 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
It may not matter scientifically, but it matters to me. I like to see proof for a God that puts his money where his mouth is. If he says that he destroyed the earth with a flood, then I want to see proof for it (which I do see proof). If he says that he created everything in the universe in 6 days, then I expect to see evidence of this (which I do)

"He" didn't say any of that. People, Men, Humans said that and wrote it down. Do you think "God" just wrote a novel and left it lying around somewhere for someone to find, read it, and find it so darn good he just had to share it?

quote:
Just look at population growth, for example. If it were true that humans have been around for millions of years, then we would be at, what like 50 or more billion people at least by now.


That makes absolutely no sense at all in any way.

quote:
What about magnetism? The earth is gradually losing its magnetic field. IF it were billions of years old, wouldn't the magnetism be so strong that life would be impossible?


Did you just finish reading "answers in genesis" or something? Does a certain rate of magnetic reduction or gain at this time imply that it was constantly that rate at all times? Do you know anything about the earth's magnetism at all?


By PresidentThomasJefferson on 9/28/2010 7:50:19 PM , Rating: 2
Here's irrefutable proof of evolution video by a PhD biologist using DNA evidence, retroviral DNA etc citing work of Brown University biologist Ken Miller --more solid than DNA proof that convicts people in court

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fGkFuHIu0
-quick 10 minute video, latest DNA proofs that creationists can't refute

2) The 'humans must be recent or else they'll be 50 billion people long ago' is false because it shows creationists are simpletons w/ no understanding of ecology/biology.. what limits population growth/size is FOOD & WATER OF THE LOCAL REGION/ECOLOGY --that's why there's not 1 BILLION desert snakes in the desert.. a population maximum size is limited NOT BY AREA BUT BY HOW MUCH FOOD(PREY ANIMALS & EDIBLE PLANTS) in the region.. as well as local diseases...

Famines killing millions were frequent & common throughout most of human history(Irish potato famine was just a small one) as well as plagues (killed 33% of Europe)..and before the 20th century of modern medicine, 20% of women died in childbirth

Hell, it was predicted decades ago that there would be world food shortages/famines but it was averted because crop yields were increased 20-50x(depending on species) by FDR-trained Nobel Prize winner Norman Borlaug, who's gov research created the "Green Revolution" that multiplied food production.

3) There's been plenty of new species that's arisen (a species is any population that can't or doens't interbreed with another population, usually because DNA has changed too much)'http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.htm...


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By StevoLincolnite on 9/29/2010 12:55:34 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If he says that he destroyed the earth with a flood, then I want to see proof for it (which I do see proof).


Got some Photographs of that? I want to see the proof.

Plus... A flood destroying earth? What are we standing on now if the earth was "destroyed"? i.e. - Turned into rubble.

quote:
If he says that he created everything in the universe in 6 days, then I expect to see evidence of this (which I do)


What proof? A silly book that man wrote? Seriously? That is not proof.
You need solid proof, none of this faith or belief stuff. (Your logic, not mine.)

quote:
Just look at population growth, for example. If it were true that humans have been around for millions of years, then we would be at, what like 50 or more billion people at least by now.


And things have occured over time that may have stagnated growth.
Throughout time humans didn't reach 80+ years old, the average age was more like 25-30 years old.

Then you have things like the Dark ages, World Wars, Plagues, Natural disasters which probably wiped out Billions over the years.

quote:
Not that I am saying my opinion on the matter or any more valid then anyone else, but there comes a point where you either believe in God or you don't.


You seem to think your opinion is more valid than anyone elses.

I believe there is no God, it is your God not mine.

quote:
And if you believe in him, why not believe his word (literally word for word). Wouldn't anything else be undermining him?


Because last I checked he hasn't sat down and did an interview with anyone and written a book... We only have some old fart wearing a dress and a goofy hat to go by.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 9:14:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Got some Photographs of that? I want to see the proof.

quote:
If there was a worldwide flood (as depicted in the Bible), then there would be: 1. Several layers of geologic strata around the world. 2. Fault lines from where the (biblical) "fountains of the deep" broke forth. 3. Billions of dead and fossilized plants and animals. 4. Oil pockets from where masses of organic material were compressed and heated.


quote:
We only have some old fart wearing a dress and a goofy hat to go by.

The pope? How did he get in this discussion? It seems like all you want to do is hate and show your blatant scoffing, so I'm not going to waste my time.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/29/2010 11:02:40 AM , Rating: 2
You are the one wasting people's time....


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By MozeeToby on 9/28/2010 2:50:02 PM , Rating: 2
What the scientific method will show you is that the THEORY of gravity cannot be proved or disproved. That is why it is and will remain a theory. You can come up with a lot of supporting evidence, but the theory is sufficiently vague and broad that it cannot be proved. You can come up with things that contradict things that others said supported gravity , but that doesn't disprove gravity .

What SCIENCE shows is is that gravity is a theory that helps us explain the world around us, but when it comes down to it a leap of faith is required to believe in it.

You see, in science the word 'theory' has a meaning rather different from the meaning that the word is given in every day speech. Indeed, the theory of universal gravitation, that is, the theory that explains why you fall to the ground, why the planets orbit the sun, why the hydrogen atoms of the sun fuse into helium, and countless, countless other effects, is "just a theory".

Now, it is in fact true that universal gravitation, as expressed by Newton, is not 100% correct. Relativity makes tiny adjustments to it and it has been shown that those adjustments are closer to reality than the original theory was. It's entirely possible that evolution isn't the complete theory, but it is no more wrong than the theory of universal gravitation is wrong. And you can go ahead and try to convince me that the theory of gravity is just as wrong as the theories that it replaced, I will quietly laugh and leave the forum in disgust.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By tng on 9/28/2010 3:05:04 PM , Rating: 2
Oh God (pun intended) not gravity...

While gravity makes for a good argument along these lines, I think that really gravity at it's most basic level (gravitational force as one of the four fundamental forces) is probably the least understood.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By MozeeToby on 9/28/2010 3:10:15 PM , Rating: 5
That's the point, we know more about evolution than we do about gravity, but no one sits around arguing about whether or not Newton's theory of universal gravitation is true or not. No one goes into a panic that we still teach it to students (even though we know it to be inadequate to describe the universe).

The only reason that universal gravitation is accepted and evolution isn't is because it is an emotionally charged topic, if it wasn't for emotion every educated person in the world would accept evolution as fact the same way that every educated person in the world accepts universal gravitation as fact.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By tng on 9/28/2010 3:34:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The only reason that universal gravitation is accepted and evolution isn't is because it is an emotionally charged topic


Ever see a bunch of physicists argue? Scientists do get emotional about their personal fields of interest. No different than normal people.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Squigybits on 9/28/2010 3:53:22 PM , Rating: 2
Non Sequitur!


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By flatrock on 9/28/2010 6:23:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now, it is in fact true that universal gravitation, as expressed by Newton, is not 100% correct. Relativity makes tiny adjustments to it and it has been shown that those adjustments are closer to reality than the original theory was. It's entirely possible that evolution isn't the complete theory, but it is no more wrong than the theory of universal gravitation is wrong. And you can go ahead and try to convince me that the theory of gravity is just as wrong as the theories that it replaced, I will quietly laugh and leave the forum in disgust.


The theory of gravatation isn't wrong so much as that it is an accurate enough approximation of reality for most all purposes.

Evolution matches reality well enough as best we can tell, and while we might find some things that fruther refine our knowledge, I don't expect it will be found to be untrue in a broad sense.

Intelligent Design doesn't really contradict evolution, nor does evolution contradict intelligent design. However, I can see people's arguments that while Evolution does not only describe a way of looking at the world it provides a useful framework for further scientific study. Intelligent design doesn't really address the details of the design, because the design is beyond our comprehension. What it addresses that evolution does not is the origin of life.

I really haven't seen a convincing competing explaination for where all this matter and energy came from, or when and how did time begin. Or maybe I just didn't understand such competing theories.

What irritates me is that people will claim that Evolution proves there is not a God or other intelligent designer. It has become a faith for the faithless. However, I'm falling into the trap I accused others of. I'm arguing against something I feel people are making Evolution into, not what it really is. I'm a little slow today. I blame it on lack of sleep.

My grey matter got a little exercise today. Almost always a good thing.

You are right, I was wrong. Thanks for having the patience to point it out in a nice way so I eventually throught things through better.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 6:53:27 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
What the scientific method will show you is that the THEORY of evolution cannot be proved or disproved. That is why it is and will remain a theory.


Do you know what a scientific THEORY actually is? Creationist seem to think that a "Theory" is any ridiculous story you can dream up. It's not.

"A theory is a unifying principle that explains a body of experimental observations and the laws that are based on them."

Here is a video, which I know you most likely won't watch, that addresses this argument exactly, and completely refutes this over-used, and falsely based argument..

http://www.youtube.com/user/AronRa#p/search/0/eGmL...


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 8:04:22 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Creationist seem to think that a "Theory" is any ridiculous story you can dream up. It's not.

Straw man.

quote:
Here is a video,...

It's funny how we need a scientist to "explain everything" to us, when the average person can use just plain old common sense to understand the Bible.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 9:13:22 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Straw man.

Nope. I don't think you understand that phrase. The straw man is the "It's just a THEORY" argument. Saying "It's just a theory" is deliberately misrepresenting what a scientific theory actually is, and by definition a straw man argument. My statement was simply pointing this out.

quote:
It's funny how we need a scientist to "explain everything" to us, when the average person can use just plain old common sense to understand the Bible.

It is funny, and also very sad. The reason your statement is true is because current scientific fields of study are incredibly advanced and complicated, and the average human doesn't have the mental capacity to thoroughly understand these theories, or is unwilling to put the effort in to understand.

On the other hand, the Bible is intellectually bankrupt. It is filled with outdated superstitions, fairy tales, factually false information, and extremely disturbing trains of thought.

Your statement is analogous to saying it's "funny" that children can't understand a biology book but can easily understand Santa Clause. It doesn't do anything to prove that the Biology book is false, or that Santa Clause is true.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 1:00:30 AM , Rating: 2
The Bible has got it all wrong you need to read the Vedea.

Sorry the Vedea also have it all wrong you need to read the Holy Books of the Pharoahs.

Sorry they have it all wrong as well you will need to read the Holy Books of Zoroaster.

Oops they have it wrong as well where do we turn to next???

Ah well when we stand before Osiris we can ask him about this while he is weighing our soul in his balance :)


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Skywalker123 on 9/29/2010 2:26:23 AM , Rating: 3
How can the average person understand the Bible when there is so much disagreement over what it says? Its mostly gobbledegook.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By foolsgambit11 on 9/28/2010 7:13:09 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
What the scientific method will show you is that the THEORY of evolution cannot be proved or disproved.

Wrong. The scientific method will show you that the theory of evolution cannot be proven. However, it certainly can be disproven by evidence of a species or even an organ that could not have come into being by evolution. This 'out' was offered by Darwin in The Origin of Species, where he gave possible evolutionary paths for some of the difficult cases that others had challenged him with (though he acknowledged a dearth of hard evidence, which has partially been filled in in the intervening years). For 150 years, people have tried to present a valid counterexample, and have consistently come up short.

I do definitely agree that evolution is a theory that helps us explain the world around us, but that remaining unconvinced of its validity in and of itself is not necessarily a fault. But being convinced of its invalidity is another matter.

While it may require some faith (mostly good faith in the scientific endeavors of other people) to accept that evolution is our best approximation of the historic truth of our planet's biological history, that type of faith is of a fundamentally different character than the kind required of creationism, intelligent design, or 'predestined evolution' as mentioned in the article. Evolution only requires that you start from simple, observed causes (not all organisms are equally fit to survive) and effects (surviving organisms pass on their genes, but their offspring are not identical), and assume that those same causes have existed and produced similar effects for extended periods of time. In other words, evolution makes the same assumption as all sciences, that the universe was/is the same unless demonstrated to be otherwise.

On the other hand, the faith required by religious explanations of the origin of species is of a different nature, requiring that we begin with an unobserved and unexplained cause. The OP said (paraphrasing) that Creationism and its ilk begin with the existence of a Prime Mover, rather than deducing his existence from observation, and that really strikes at the heart of the issue.

Here are a few well-accepted facts about the diversity of life on Earth.

1. There aren't really species, per se - you can't categorize all organisms by a simple rule like 'able to produce viable offspring'.

2. Many 'species' are closely aligned to other 'species' (I'm dropping the use of quote marks now).

3. The geological distribution of those species generally puts those most closely aligned in relative proximity.

4. There are fossil remains of organisms which have never been observed alive.

All four of these points make perfect sense as logical results of the Theory of Evolution - it's what you'd expect to see. But there is no particular reason why a sentient Creator would have done any of these things in populating the Earth with species. In other words, Creationism isn't a valid scientific theory - not just because it isn't disprovable, but also because it doesn't even explain the facts.

Sorry for the essay, btw.


By skepticallizzie on 9/28/2010 8:19:45 PM , Rating: 3
1- i liked the essay, don't apologize for it.

2- "While it may require some faith (mostly good faith in the scientific endeavors of other people) to accept that evolution is our best approximation of the historic truth of our planet's biological history, that type of faith is of a fundamentally different character than the kind required of creationism, intelligent design, or 'predestined evolution' as mentioned in the article. Evolution only requires that you start from simple, observed causes (not all organisms are equally fit to survive) and effects (surviving organisms pass on their genes, but their offspring are not identical), and assume that those same causes have existed and produced similar effects for extended periods of time. In other words, evolution makes the same assumption as all sciences, that the universe was/is the same unless demonstrated to be otherwise."
Agreed!!
3- thank you for the facts!
nice response...


By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 9/29/2010 7:43:08 AM , Rating: 3
Oh dear, I see you have embraced your conclusion so firmly that nothing anyone says will dissuade you. I am troubled that you can't see the difference between scientific method and a logical fallacy. It reminds me of the line "Who are you who are so wise in the ways of science?" "I am Arthur, king of the Britains!"

Evolution is a fact, like gravity, btw. The theory part is, what exactly is the mechanism. You guys have to stop leaning on that "it's a theory " thing.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Lerianis on 9/29/2010 2:47:38 AM , Rating: 3
The biggest reason that people don't like evolution is because, if it is true, it points to humanity not being created by their imaginary 'god' and instead simply being a product of pure chance.

They don't like that because it (rightly) demeans their value and makes it less proper for them to say "YOU DO THIS BECAUSE I WANT YOU TO!" as the Muslims and other religious people wish to do.

Sure, they veil it with the idea that 'god' wants them to, but since he doesn't exist in any way, shape or form? It's really about them wanting to force their personal likes and dislikes on everyone else.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By kd9280 on 9/30/2010 11:48:37 AM , Rating: 2
Just want to explain something here:

quote:
The biggest reason that people don't like evolution is because, if it is true, it points to humanity not being created by their imaginary 'god' and instead simply being a product of pure chance.


The problem with this statement is that those people aren't complaining about evolution at all! Evolution, in no way, explains our origins. It does, however, explain how we came to be what we are now. While randomness does provide some of the mechanics of evolution, more than anything it has to do with selection (natural or sexual) or certain selective pressures.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By jesuslovesyou on 10/2/2010 2:40:14 AM , Rating: 2
The difference between evolution and creationism is the difference between forced fantasy and truth. There is no evolution that results in a increase of functional genetic information, and, never has been! It is a sham, a fairy tale, being forced on the masses by a cadre of primarily ardent atheists whose goal (beside economic motivators) is all out war against Biblical Christianity. The fact that so many on here are members of the unknowing and uninformed that the "gods' you worship lead, shows that given enough time, the weight of the state, and the suspension of true science and reason, anything is possible; even believing that we all came from a rock, which itself came from nothing!


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By jesuslovesyou on 10/2/2010 2:46:02 AM , Rating: 2
BTW Mr Mick, many of us believe in Creation by Design rather than evolution because overwhelmingly the preponderance of the scientific evidence supports Creation, not evolution. In fact, I would take this a step further and state that there is no scientifically undisputed evidence that supports any of the various theories of evolution as scientific postulations for origins. But hey, they do have a fable, and when you control all facets of what gets examined and what gets reported, you can say anything and those who simply don't know any better and don't have access to the scientific evidence that proves proves otherwise will believe it; either by choice, or when necessary, by force.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By kd9280 on 10/2/2010 12:43:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The difference between evolution and creationism is the difference between forced fantasy and truth. There is no evolution that results in a increase of functional genetic information, and, never has been!


http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB102.html

quote:
It is a sham, a fairy tale, being forced on the masses by a cadre of primarily ardent atheists whose goal (beside economic motivators) is all out war against Biblical Christianity.


Besides research grants, there's no real economic advantage I can think of. Also, your statement fails to consider the non-atheists who agree that the Theory of Evolution is true (Ken Miller, for example.) The Theory of Evolution is scientific and logical.

quote:
The fact that so many on here are members of the unknowing and uninformed that the "gods' you worship lead, shows that given enough time, the weight of the state, and the suspension of true science and reason, anything is possible; even believing that we all came from a rock, which itself came from nothing!


I'm not exactly sure what you're saying in that first part... but as per the second, abiogenesis and cosmology are not evolution. Where life came from and how our universe was created is not considered when talking about how the diversity of life happened. If there was evidence that some being created the universe, it would not, at all, deny the facts of evolutionary theory.

quote:
BTW Mr Mick, many of us believe in Creation by Design rather than evolution because overwhelmingly the preponderance of the scientific evidence supports Creation, not evolution.


If by 'supports' you mean 'there is absolutely no evidence for' then yes, you're right. Otherwise, show the evidence please?

quote:
In fact, I would take this a step further and state that there is no scientifically undisputed evidence that supports any of the various theories of evolution as scientific postulations for origins.


Once more, evolution is not abiogenesis. Darwin's book was "On the Origin of Species " not "On the Origin of Life ".

quote:
But hey, they do have a fable, and when you control all facets of what gets examined and what gets reported, you can say anything and those who simply don't know any better and don't have access to the scientific evidence that proves proves otherwise will believe it; either by choice, or when necessary, by force.


Conspiracy theories are for crackpots. When people like Ray Comfort, Answers in Genesis, Kent "Jailbird" Hovind, Ken Ham, and countless others are able to publish books and write Internet articles about Creationism it kind of breaks apart your thoughts that the scientists control all facets of what gets reported.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By Albert J on 10/3/2010 7:53:58 AM , Rating: 2
"Creationism uses the logical fallacy of Rational Construction-ism, which is, embrace a conclusion first, then find evidence that supports your conclusion, and refute evidence that does not."

You mean like 'inventing' Accidental-ism, where by the Universe just accidentally happens, and then for some unknown reason life just accidentally happens, then then some how evolution happens, with rules that accidentally happen and some accidental arbiter that maintains and amends the rules of Evolution? When there is zero scientific evidence that Accidental-ism has happened, or ever will happen? Where is the evidence in a lab of things happening accidentally and randomly on their own? Where is the scientific evidence life just springs up accidentally from nothing? Corn comes from corn, not alligators silly. And species are altered by genetic engineering, a higher intelligence, not accidentally, silly.

You mean like that, yes? :) Darwinism-Accidental-ism is from the very beginning faith based, LOL! From there on, you all are continually ignoring facts (Like the fossil record, hello!) and trying to fit a round peg into a triangular hole.

The real questions is, why against all analytic logic and current scientific evidence do you and your kind want so much for your lives to be pointless and meaning less , do you think, Hmmmm?


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By teddlybar2 on 10/3/2010 5:47:42 PM , Rating: 2
Part of the problem here is that your assertion is based on a false premise, that evolution is based on proper scientific method and creationism is not.

The principal weakness in your argument lies in step three of the scientific method – Design an experiment to test the hypothesis. First of all, there is obvious difficulty in designing this experiment since evolutionary theory requires the passage of more time than you have available to run the experiment in order to determine its validity. That leaves you purely with observation and conjecture based on inductive reasoning. In classical logic, inductive reasoning doesn’t lead you to absolute truths. One of the better known examples is that of testing the hypothesis that ALL SWANS ARE WHITE. Observation of only white swans doesn’t prove that all swans are white, but the discovery of a black swan will disprove the conjecture. This is why Einstein is famously quoted as saying “No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong.” Thus, proper scientific method that is based purely on observation, should be designed to find a counter example. In other words, if you’re a good scientist, you try to DISPROVE your conjecture (hypothesis). Only after rigorous testing trying to break your hypothesis can you put it out there as something you believe to be valid.

Much that passes as teaching of evolutionary theory specifically prohibits pointing out challenges or potential holes in Darwinian Theory, a direct violation of your contention that you should adjust the hypothesis for anomalies, retest, adjust . . . For example, experiments with bacteria, HIV viruses & malaria have shown that even with relatively large populations of organisms, there is not a sufficient rate of helpful mutations, even allowing for the passage of billions of years, to account for macroevolution. This is an even bigger problem with higher developed organisms (such as mammals) since they have a much lower population, and hence fewer organisms available in which mutations can occur. The statistics just don’t bear out the conjecture.

This is NOT good science. It is dogmatic faith on a similar level with religion.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By kd9280 on 10/3/2010 7:11:26 PM , Rating: 2
There are plenty of falsifiers of evolution, and a great portion of Creationist arguments revolve around the thought that evolution has been falsified. Creationists can't get into agreement whether evolution can't be or has been falsified.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By teddlybar2 on 10/3/2010 8:10:23 PM , Rating: 2
I think that what's confusing you is that there are two schools of thought in the Creationist and Intellegent Design communities. Those who contend that evolution can't be falsified because neither creationism or darwinian evolution is an experimental science (because they are not repeatable events) and therefore the veracity of their claims do not lend themselves to experimental testing. Another school such as Behe believe that evolution has been falsified because there are specific issues they can point to where the evolutionary model either violates established science, or doesn't hold up under statistical or biochemical scrutiny.

These two positions are not necessarily in conflict, rather they illustrate differing points of view on the same conundrum.


RE: Proper Scientific Method
By kd9280 on 10/3/2010 8:27:28 PM , Rating: 2
Michael "Irreducible Complexity" Behe?

The one who admitted he didn't read all the literature that described the formation of things like bacterial flagellum and blood clotting pathways and the immune system?

I realize it's from Talk Origins, but this is the same as the court testimony from the Dover trial - http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day12pm.html - about midway through.


Evolution disbelief is fueled by stupidity
By amanojaku on 9/28/2010 10:10:21 AM , Rating: 4
There is plenty of evidence to support evolution.

And evolution does not deny or confirm the existence of god: if god exists (I say he/she/it/they do(es) because of the laws of conservation of mass and energy) then god is responsible for evolution.




RE: Evolution disbelief is fueled by stupidity
By MozeeToby on 9/28/2010 10:45:17 AM , Rating: 4
If current cosmological theory is correct then the universe has zero net energy, no violation of energy conservation needed. If correct it means that the universe could have arisen from nothing, with only gravity as the causative agent. And indeed you can take the numbers that we know about the universe and calculate the positive and negative energy and you will come out with a number very close to zero (actually including zero when you take the confidence of the measurements into account).

A God of the Gaps is an easy trap to fall into, but history says that no matter how far beyond our current understanding you put the gaps we will eventually catch up and start to fill them in. If you're going to believe in God believe for purely theistic reasons, otherwise science will eventually get around to addressing whatever gap you've assigned Him to and we've all seen what happens after that.


By LRonaldHubbs on 9/28/2010 2:43:58 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
even Einstein believed in God.

Allow me to quote Einstein's own words:

quote:
"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it."

quote:
"[...] The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this. These [...] interpretations are highly manifold according to their nature and have almost nothing to do with the original text. For me the Jewish religion like all other religions is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are also no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them."

quote:
"I'm not an atheist. I don't think I can call myself a pantheist. The problem involved is too vast for our limited minds. We are in the position of a little child entering a huge library filled with books in many languages. The child knows someone must have written those books. It does not know how. It does not understand the languages in which they are written. The child dimly suspects a mysterious order in the arrangement of the books but doesn't know what it is. That, it seems to me, is the attitude of even the most intelligent human being toward God. We see the universe marvelously arranged and obeying certain laws but only dimly understand these laws."


Interpret the above as you will, but understand that he did not believe in the Abrahamic 'God' or any other personal god.


RE: Evolution disbelief is fueled by stupidity
By geddarkstorm on 9/28/2010 4:05:05 PM , Rating: 3
There is no such thing as "negative" energy, so that idea is immediately false. Just like there is no "negative" mass. Though, if such exotic matter with negative mass existed, it would be trivial to make FTL drives. That just goes to show how much a violation of reality such a thing would be.

Also, there's another problem. Don't forget the second law of thermal dynamics. All spontaneous reactions decrease the order of the universe. No reaction can ever increase net order. That is, the universe is like a clock winding down, and time is simply our perception of entropy in motion. From whence did the highest level of order come from to produce the Big Bang and the resulting decay into chaos that we call reality?


RE: Evolution disbelief is fueled by stupidity
By Laitainion on 9/28/2010 5:50:36 PM , Rating: 2
Why is there no such thing as negative energy? So many other things have opposites (electrical charges for instance), why not energy? I am not saying that this is proof that negative energy exists, but simply that because you (and I'll be honest, me) can't understand something that it cannot exist.

As for the whole entropy argument, I remember reading a very interesting book that talked about that in quite some detail (alas I can't remember the title). If I remember the details correctly, the universe as it was just after the big bang was (it can be imagined) very tightly packed, very hot matter (of some form, it doesn't actually matter specifically what) and was uniformly distributed. Due to the compressed nature of the universe this was the maximum entropy the system (i.e. the universe) could possess at that time.
As the universe expanded and cooled, the matter stread out too. As the universe expanded the maximum entropy the system was capable of increased, I believe, exponentially. At the same time the distribution of matter became less uniform (I think due to some weird quantum field effect, I forget exactly) but by some method of measuring entropy on an absolute scale, the entropy of the universe was still increasing although because the maximum entropy of the universe was increasing quicker, we get us.

I admit there's quite a few holes in this theory, I only read the book once and that was somewhere in the region of 3-5 years ago. All that am trying to suggest is the universe could well be a great deal more complicated and strange than any of us know and that a new theory or idea shouldn't just be discarded. I certainly don't necessarily believe the theory I've just described, I certainly don't think it could be proved to my satisfaction. Nevertheless I think it is a very interesting way of thinking about and trying to understand differing aspects of the universe.


By tng on 9/28/2010 6:47:22 PM , Rating: 2
There is a theory that there is negative energy, but it is tied into new understanding of black holes and would not exist in this universe.


RE: Evolution disbelief is fueled by stupidity
By FaaR on 9/28/2010 6:59:01 PM , Rating: 2
"Order" versus "disorder", or "chaos" if you like are human/philosophical constructs. They cannot be expressed mathematically in a formula such as the second law of thermodynamics.

The early universe was not "ordered" as we percieve it, better to call it uniform or some such, in that matter was essentially consisting of hydrogen only. I believe in there lies your answer. :)


RE: Evolution disbelief is fueled by stupidity
By geddarkstorm on 9/29/2010 1:44:28 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, "order/disorder/chaos" can be expressed mathematically just fine, and have been in MULTIPLE ways. Look up the Boltzmann constant (W) and associated equations.

Once the universe reaches maximal entropy, no new reactions that are not completely reversible can occur (0 entropy change). That is, all life, flow of energy (stars, matter, electromagnetic/temperature gradients, etc) will no longer exist and all will just be a level soup -- everything will have the SAME amount of energy at any point in the universe (even black holes die to entropy eventually, and even protons have a half life as entropy breaks them down at the subatomic level).

Since any reaction, or motion of energy, only increases universal entropy, and brings us towards that end, well...


By geddarkstorm on 9/29/2010 1:50:08 PM , Rating: 2
Err, sorry, look up Boltzmann's equation, which uses W, not his constant, which is k.


RE: Evolution disbelief is fueled by stupidity
By wgbutler on 9/30/2010 7:34:59 AM , Rating: 2
Hawking's hypothesis has a number of problems. William Lane Craig responds on his website (reasonable faith). I'll copy some of his remarks below:

(part 1)
quote:

Hawking's hypothesis is unsatisfying to say the least. William Lane Craig responds on his website:

quote:

...Not only is there nothing of scientific substance new in this book, nothing that Hawking had not already stated in his earlier best-seller A Brief History of Time, but Hawking and Mlodinow also fail to take any cognizance of criticisms in the literature of Hawking’s earlier proposals. If you have digested my treatment of the origin and fine-tuning of the universe in Reasonable Faith, 3rd ed., then you are already equipped to respond to the claims of this new book.

Hawking and Mlodinow seek to answer three questions in this book:

1. Why is there something rather than nothing?

2. Why do we exist?

3. Why this particular set of laws and not some other?

Curiously, their answer to each of these questions turns out to be very brief. In fact, (2) gets folded into (1) and so doesn’t even receive a separate answer.

Hawking and Mlodinow’s answer to questions (1) and (2) is an appeal to the “no boundary” model of the origin of the universe, popularized by Hawking in A Brief History of Time. Our authors simply expound the model without adducing any evidence for it or mentioning any of the alternative models to it. Nor do they respond to the criticism that the so-called “imaginary time” featured in the model is physically unintelligible and therefore merely a mathematical “trick” useful for avoiding the cosmological singularity which appears in classical theories at the beginning of the universe.

Still, their exposition is not without interest with regard to whether the universe had a temporal beginning. They write,

The realization that time can behave like another direction of space means one can get rid of the problem of time having a beginning, in a similar way in which we got rid of the edge of the world. Suppose the beginning of the universe was like the South Pole of the earth, with degrees of latitude playing the role of time. As one moves north, the circles of constant latitude, representing the size of the universe, would expand. The universe would start as a point at the South Pole, but the South Pole is much like any other point. To ask what happened before the beginning of the universe would become a meaningless question, because there is nothing south of the South Pole. In this picture space-time has no boundary—the same laws of nature hold at the South Pole as in other places (pp. 134-5).

This passage is fascinating because it represents a rather different interpretation of imaginary time than what we had in A Brief History of Time. Here the analogy of the South Pole is interpreted to imply a beginning point to both time and the universe. Despite the fact that imaginary time behaves like another spatial dimension, Hawking allows the circles of latitude to play the role of time, which has a beginning point at the South Pole. When Hawking speaks of “the problem of time having a beginning,” what he means is “the age-old objection to the universe having a beginning” (p. 135), an objection which his model removes. That age-old objection is the question, “What happened before the beginning of the universe?” Hawking is right that this question is meaningless on his model; but what he fails to mention is that the question is equally meaningless on the standard big bang model, since there is nothing prior to the initial cosmological singularity. On either model the universe has an absolute temporal beginning—just as the second premiss of the kalam cosmological argument states.

So the question is, why did the universe begin to exist? Why is there something rather than nothing? Hawking and Mlodinow advocate what they call a “top down” approach to this question. The idea here is to begin with our presently observed universe characterized by the standard model of particle physics and then calculate, given the no boundary condition, the probability of the various histories allowed by quantum physics to reach our present state. The most probable history represents the history of our observable universe. Hawking and Mlodinow claim that “in this view, the universe appeared spontaneously from nothing” (p. 136). By “spontaneously” they seem to mean without a cause.

But how does that follow from the model? The top down approach calculates the probability of our observable universe given the no boundary condition. The top down approach doesn’t calculate the probability that the no boundary condition should hold but takes it for granted. Such a condition is not metaphysically or physically necessary. If the universe came into being uncaused from nothing, it could have had any sort of conceivable spatiotemporal configuration. For nothingness, or non-being, has no properties or constraints and is governed by no physical laws. Physics only begins at the “South Pole” in the no boundary model. There isn’t anything in the model that implies that that point came to be without a cause. Indeed, the idea that being could arise without a cause from non-being seems metaphysically absurd.

Hawking and Mlodinow seem to realize that they have not yet answered the question, “Why is there something rather than nothing?,” for they return to this question in their concluding chapter and give a quite different answer. There they explain that there is a constant vacuum energy contained in empty space, and if the universe’s positive energy associated with matter is evenly balanced by the negative energy associated with gravitation, then the universe can spontaneously come into being as a fluctuation of the energy in the vacuum (which, by a clever sleight of hand, they say “we may as well call . . . zero”). This seems to be a very different account of the universe’s origin, for it presupposes the reality of space and the energy in it. So it’s puzzling when Mlodinow and Hawking conclude, “Because there is a law like gravity, the universe can and will create itself from nothing in the manner described in Chapter 6” (p. 180). Here it is said that the nothingness spoken of in Chapter 6 is not really nothingness after all but is space filled with vacuum energy! That goes to reinforce the conviction that the no boundary approach only describes the evolution of our universe from its origin at its “South Pole” to its present state but is silent as to why the universe came to exist in the first place....

(to be continued)


By wgbutler on 9/30/2010 7:37:47 AM , Rating: 2
part 2

quote:

What this implies is that Hawking and Mlodinow have not even begun to address the philosophical question, “Why is there something rather than nothing?” For “nothing” in their vocabulary does not have the traditional meaning “non-being” but rather means “the quantum vacuum.” They aren’t even answering the same question. Like the philosophy student who, put the question, “What is Time?” on his final exam, answered, “a weekly news magazine,” so Hawking and Mlodinow have avoided the tough question by equivocation.

If they have thus failed to answer questions (1) and (2), what about (3): Why is there this particular set of laws rather than some other? The issue here is explaining the apparently miraculous fine-tuning of the universe for intelligent life. Hawking and Mlodinow express this idea by observing that “in recent years physicists began asking themselves what the universe would have been like if the laws of nature were different” (p. 159).

Unfortunately, this statement is very misleading. Scientists grappling with fine-tuning are not asking what the universe would have been like if it were governed by different laws of nature. Rather they’re asking what the universe would have been like if it were governed by same laws of nature but with different values for the physical constants appearing in them and with different quantities for the initial conditions on which the laws operate. Nobody knows what a universe governed by different laws would be like! But because we’re talking about universes governed by the same laws, but with different numbers plugged in for the constants and quantities, we can calculate what kind of universe the laws would predict (just as Hawking and Mlodinow illustrate on pp. 159-62). So question (3) is malformed as stated. The real question is: why this particular set of constants and quantities rather than some other?

Now there are three possible answers to that question: physical necessity, chance, or design. Hawking and Mlodinow reject the hypothesis of physical necessity: “It appears that the fundamental numbers, and even the form, of the apparent laws of nature are not demanded by logic or physical principle” (p. 143). Since Mlodinow and Hawking want nothing to do with a Cosmic Designer, they opt for the hypothesis of chance. Since the odds of our universe’s being fine-tuned for intelligent life are so incomprehensibly remote, Hawking and Mlodinow appeal to the Many Worlds Hypothesis to augment one’s probabilistic resources to the extent that it becomes inevitable that a finely tuned universe will appear by chance somewhere in the World Ensemble or multiverse. If there are an infinite number of randomly ordered universes in the Ensemble, then a finely tuned universe will appear somewhere in the Ensemble by chance alone.

Now if the Many Worlds Hypothesis is to be serious science rather than metaphysical speculation, some sort of mechanism needs to be provided to generate the World Ensemble. The mechanism to which Hawking and Mlodinow appeal is Richard Feynman’s “sum-over-histories” approach to quantum theory. This is the approach which Hawking uses in the no boundary model to calculate the most probable history of the universe, given the no boundary condition, to our present observed state. Hawking and Mlodinow take these alternative histories which the universe might have pursued to be actual, parallel universes which are just as real as our universe.

Unfortunately, this is not science but a gratuitous piece of metaphysics. Feynman’s sum-over-histories method is just a mathematical tool for calculating the probability of a subatomic particle’s arriving at one point from another. One imagines all the possible paths the particle could have taken and then on that basis calculates the probability of its reaching the observed destination. There’s no basis for interpreting this mathematical “trick” to imply the ontological reality of concrete, spatio-temporal universes.

Hawking and Mlodinow also appeal to M-Theory or superstring theory to generate the World Ensemble of universes exhibiting various values for the constants of nature. Such a speculation is problematic in a number of ways which they do not discuss. First, the “cosmic landscape” of 10500 different possible universes consistent with nature’s laws which M-Theory allows are just that: possibilities. They are not real worlds, anymore than are Feynman’s histories. Second, it’s not clear that 10500 possibilities are sufficient to guarantee the existence of finely tuned universes in the landscape. What if the probability of fine tuning is less than 1:10500? This may be especially problematic concerning the arbitrary initial conditions. Finally, does the multiverse itself described by M-Theory exhibit fine-tuning? If it does, then the problem has only been pushed back a notch. It seems that it does, for as Hawking and Mlodinow note, M-Theory requires precisely eleven dimensions if it is to be viable, and yet the theory cannot account for why just that number of dimensions should exist.

Moreover, Mlodinow and Hawking do not even mention, much less respond to, Roger Penrose’s trenchant criticism of the Many Worlds Hypothesis for explaining fine-tuning in his The Road to Reality, namely, that if we were just a random member of a World Ensemble, then it is incomprehensibly more probable that we should be observing a much different universe than what we do, which strongly disconfirms the Many Worlds Hypothesis. There’s no excuse for Hawking’s failure to respond to his erstwhile collaborator’s criticisms of Hawking’s view.

In summary, despite Hawking and Mlodinow’s vaunted assertions and constant sniping at religious belief throughout this book, there is actually genuine profit in it for religious believers, especially for those interested in natural theology. With respect to the kalam cosmological argument, the authors’ preferred theory affirms the fact of an absolute beginning of time and the universe, which is the key premiss of the argument. With respect to the teleological argument based on fine-tuning, the authors affirm the fact of the apparently miraculous fine tuning of the universe for intelligent life. Moreover, they agree that the fine-tuning cannot be plausibly explained as due to physical necessity or by chance in the absence of a World Ensemble. Given the desperation and/or irrelevancy of their proffered ways to escape these arguments, their book turns out to be quite supportive of the existence of a transcendent Creator and Designer of the cosmos.


By Flunk on 9/28/2010 11:20:17 AM , Rating: 2
There are some lines of reasoning where evolution precludes the need for a god. Read Richard Dawkins "The Greatest Show on Earth" for one of the better presented ones.

It's an interesting idea and one I can't really begin to explain here but it centers around evolution being the process towards increasing complexity and the need for a "god" to be the most complex imaginable thing.


Acceptance
By Woobagong on 9/28/2010 10:54:46 AM , Rating: 2
The evidence for the evolutionary theory is overwhelming. But why is a theory or a product not accepted. I think this is always a valid question in science. For me acceptance has much to do with understanding. Science is sometimes difficult to tell in terms that the majority understands.

The term randomness in the evolution theory can be misleading. Are we a product of randomness? Yes and No. The genetic code is what stays relatively constant during the random bombardment of the external influences. I think the genetic code built by certain rules can be seen as constant and reliable. There's no need to be anxious, it works already for a very long time... like a charm. We haven't seen the whole rabbit hole by a long way. We know nothing, but it's a start.




RE: Acceptance
By Motoman on 9/28/2010 11:06:32 AM , Rating: 5
The majority doesn't want to understand. Saying "God did it" is easy and neat, and requires no thought...and it also absolves you of any personal responsibility for anything that happens - since everything happens according to "God's plan."

The funny thing is that no one pleads that way in a murder case...that they had no choice but to kill that guy, because apparently it was God's plan - and since God is omnipotent, I can't refuse his will.


RE: Acceptance
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Acceptance
By Squigybits on 9/28/2010 4:09:27 PM , Rating: 1
This is a Straw Man!


RE: Acceptance
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 5:46:01 PM , Rating: 2
Please explain how? He made a claim that cannot be backed up. I simply said that he can never know what the population thinks and why they think it. Where is the straw man in that?


RE: Acceptance
By Squigybits on 9/28/2010 7:36:11 PM , Rating: 2
You are correct.
My post that it was a straw man was wrong.
Maybe more of a red herring. Considering that the majority of the population are believers and also dispute evolution I am inclined to conclude that he is talking about the population in general but to say that he is not just speaking about the uneducated portion of the population would be wrong of me. Either way, you divert rather than confront.
Thanks for correcting me!


RE: Acceptance
By Fritzr on 9/28/2010 10:51:55 PM , Rating: 2
He is using the same red herring in reverse. Since it cannot be certain that the population will believe in a certain thing, it is thereby proven that that population disbelieves that thing.

Using the same argument Christianity has just been falsified, as verity would require the population to believe in it.

There has to be an error in this. If God left a watermark this obvious, it would prove the nonexistence of "God who is hidden" :P


RE: Acceptance
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 11:23:22 PM , Rating: 2
Your circular logic is amazing.


RE: Acceptance
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 1:11:37 AM , Rating: 4
Not as good as yours though.

I love your reasoning.
God made the Universe
The Universe Exists
Therefore
Because the Universe cannot exist without being created
The existence of the Universe is proof that God exists

Then you lose a few points by stating that
The Bible is infallible documentary proof of the above
The Bible is a document written by fallible humans and is full of errors
Faith is all that is needed to reconcile these beliefs

Or you can convert to Hinduism and worship an aspect of Vishnu, Creator of the Universe.

If you don't like that one, then there are many other Faiths that have a validity equal to that of Christianity. i.e. It is revealed Truth, the preacher said so :)


RE: Acceptance
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 9:21:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Bible is a document written by fallible humans and is full of errors

Show me an error... go ahead, dare you. there has never been one single error proven AT ALL.


RE: Acceptance
By transamdude95 on 9/29/2010 11:00:36 AM , Rating: 2
Shut up, monkey.


RE: Acceptance
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/29/2010 2:14:53 PM , Rating: 2
Were you around when it was written originally by a HUMAN? No? Thought so....


RE: Acceptance
By skepticallizzie on 10/4/2010 2:38:36 PM , Rating: 2
1- Mary was a virgin, gave a virgin birth. (really Mary?)
2- Jesus died, oh wait he didn't, oh wait hes dead.
3- An arc full of animals together for a few weeks. (i mean, back then there was no evolution anyway, so there couldn't be that many....)
4- i have a dead fish to eat. oh wait they reproduced and made more of themselves while yet completely dead.
5- bread reproduced itself (i mean, does bread have consciousness too? can we project our human characteristics on bread?)
6- Gods original people were Jewish. then he sent a guy named christ- oh, wait where did all the Jews go?


RE: Acceptance
By Flail on 9/28/2010 7:00:32 PM , Rating: 1
You criticize him for making a generalization, yet you make one yourself by basically saying "everyone who makes generalizations is a scumbag"... Nice one... Scumbag.


RE: Acceptance
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 8:16:08 PM , Rating: 2
Your irony detector is broken...


RE: Acceptance
By Woobagong on 9/28/2010 11:22:16 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not into religion, but that is a bold statement. I don't think that religious ppl blame god for their own errors or deny any responsibility. Religions have rules or codes, these rules are meant for YOUR wrong doings. (Jules says: And if you ever heard it, that meant your ass)


Comfort
By tastyratz on 9/28/2010 10:19:42 AM , Rating: 5
People need to feel comfortable in death and explanation of creation. Religion fills a very big void there and originally came about in ways to control the public in a rudimentary form of government. Whether or not you believe in God Buddha or Ronald Mcdonald it doesn't matter. Religion in anarchy enforces a moral code among men to establish order and chain of command while playing off unexplainable fears. The primary basis of strength through religion is its inability to be 100% proven wrong. Nobody can TRULY come back and tell you.

Before someone who believes in X steps out think of 2 things:
1. If you believe in whatever religion then you also believe everyone elses is wrong.
2. Think of this statement applying to everyone else if it offends you.




RE: Comfort
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 10:52:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
1. If you believe in whatever religion then you also believe everyone elses is wrong. 2. Think of this statement applying to everyone else if it offends you.

Ok so you blankly accuse people of bigotry.. then ask us to not assume things can apply to the entire population.
You say all that right after:
quote:
The primary basis of strength through religion is its inability to be 100% proven wrong.

Wow... you make false and stereotypical assumptions about a group of people then ask us to not do the same thing. Bravo.


RE: Comfort
By LRonaldHubbs on 9/28/2010 3:22:02 PM , Rating: 4
Wrong on all counts. He didn't accuse anyone of bigotry, nor did he make any requests. As usual you've misread and/or misunderstood. Let's take a look at what he actually said:

quote:
Before someone who believes in X steps out think of 2 things: 1. If you believe in whatever religion then you also believe everyone elses is wrong. 2. Think of this statement applying to everyone else if it offends you.

1. If you believe in a religion, and you believe that your religion is the true word (which all major religions do claim to be), then by definition you believe that all other religions are not the true word and are therefore wrong. There is nothing to refute here, this is logically true.
2. Every other religion also asserts that they are right, therefore they assert that your religion is wrong. This is also logically true.

quote:
The primary basis of strength through religion is its inability to be 100% proven wrong. Nobody can TRULY come back and tell you.

Which part of this are you disagreeing with? Religions cannot be completely proven true or false, nor can anyone who has died come back to verify any particular religion. That much is absolutely true. Or do you disagree that unverifiability is religion's greatest strength? What then, would you argue, is its greatest strength? Actually, if that is what you wish to argue, then I would agree, because IMO unverifiability is a critical weakness of any theory, not a strength. But I do the point the OP was trying to make, that unverifiability is seen by some people as a strength, independent of whether or not it really is one.


RE: Comfort
By JakLee on 9/28/2010 5:20:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
nor can anyone who has died come back to verify any particular religion


So are you saying if someone did come back, and they told you what was on the "other side" you would believe them?


RE: Comfort
By Fritzr on 9/28/2010 10:59:53 PM , Rating: 2
Not necessarily their story of what they did "On the other side", but if a sufficient length of time had passed to be sure that all "life" was gone from the physical body, then it would definitely support a Theory of Life After Death :P


RE: Comfort
By Squigybits on 9/28/2010 4:04:31 PM , Rating: 2
Straw man!


RE: Comfort
By straycat74 on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Comfort
By Fritzr on 9/28/2010 11:13:33 PM , Rating: 2
The Siddhartha Bhudda who was a Prince in India was such a man. He did not believe in God the Creator whether by the name Yahweh or Vishnu.

The religion based on his beliefs does not have Gods of the kind envisioned by Christians. The closest analog Christianity has to the highest level in the old form of Bhuddism would be the Saints.

Bhudda himself insisted that he was only a mortal man who was teaching others how to achieve spiritual peace.

I guess you classify The Bhudda as one of the world's Great Fools :P


RE: Comfort
By Albert J on 10/3/2010 5:09:53 AM , Rating: 2
Really??? Huh? Who are Buddhists praying to with all those prayer flags and prayer wheels, silly, if not God or aspects of God in the Buddhist pantheon of Deities? Go back to school and stop listening to people who don't know what they are talking about. Better yet, why don't you just ask Lord Buddha himself.

:)


evolution and spirituality
By skepticallizzie on 9/28/2010 12:49:19 PM , Rating: 3
I have been reading all of your posts, and I like having intellectual disucssions about this topic, so i signed up.

I to am agnostic, but yet, my "spirituality" comes from my connectivity to the earth (science). If you want to prove evolution- look at the stages of fetal development, it cannot be any clearer. We start out as cell, then two cells, then an ameoba, then so on to a fish-esque form, to frog-like, to monkey like, and then a helpless human baby. I mean look at all the in-betweens as well. We ALL go through the stages of evolution from conception to birth.
We only understand the world around us because of the paradigm that is given to us: a mother and a father. So we apply this structure to everything we cannot comprehend in order to make sense of it- like evolution.

How can we, then, understand or comprehend concepts that exist outside of that paradigm? That is where scientific studies and therories come in.
Religion, I agree is a made up story that was used to appease the people of the time and gain control over others. What better excuse is there then, "a powerful energy more powerful then you or I exists and makes laws... so you have to be careful..." I mean, really? Are people that shallow and gulliable to believe in something they cannot see, hear, taste, touch or feel?

In argument to my own statment: God, the word God, I think is used to in the attempt to efficiently describe a collective kinetic energy that we all feel from the constant movement and the constant rhythm of the earth and universe. So if we take the 'human-ness' out of the word God and use it to collectively describe that feeling, then yes, god does exist. Not 'a' singular god- but an ideal collective word that sums it up.

If we use the word God in the attempt to describe a higher and more powerful 'being' (who has human emotion and a rational mind) who makes laws and decisions about where a 'spirit' will go in the 'afterlife' and creates and destroyes like a human being- then those people are fooling themselves and closing their eyes to the greatness that is around us and deny the actual experience every minute and every breath of this life.

There is no after life. There is only this life, and this experience- enjoy it, and see the beauty in it and the mystery as well. But don't cover that beauty up and chalk it up to a human-like entity that does not exist.

I think god and satan, eternal life, heaven, hell, and the idea of a spirit has been used because we fear death. Non-existance is scary, so lets all make up some fairy tale to appease our fears as well then, eh?

i feel like i can continue on.. but i want to hear what others thoughts are on this subject.




RE: evolution and spirituality
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 2:08:54 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
then so on to a fish-esque form

LMAO! What part of the fetal development is "fish" form? This is the most absurd evidence for evolution that I have ever heard.

quote:
There is no after life. There is only this life, and this experience-

How could anyone alive today possibly know this? You claim to KNOW that there isn't an afterlife; So does this mean you are omnipotent?


RE: evolution and spirituality
By skepticallizzie on 9/28/2010 3:15:40 PM , Rating: 2
first off: that was written from a tongue in cheek point of view. I thought that was evident from the word "fish-esque" lol. I was writing in a way to be funny yet prove a point. But in reality, if a person looks at each stage of fetal development, it will be noted that the fetus goes through each "stage" of evolution.

I have been an RN for many years, and worked with extremely premature infants for a very long time. An experience like that has formed and cemented my ideas about evolution. Without going on too long, I have not only helped extremely premature infants grow from less then a pound to a regular birth weight, I have held fetusus in my hand at all stages of the pregnancy. And I can tell you with certainty (but not omnipotentcy, lol) that i have seen with my own eyes that there is some evidence of evolution in the development of the human fetus. Not absurd at all. I will attach some literature for you to check out.

Regarding the after life: my argument- how can i not know this? There is no proof to an after life (that resembles the archetypal heaven or hell) whatsoever. It is not scientifically possible. I am now a nurse who works for pediatric hospice, and i can tell you when a person or child dies that an energy is extinguished and it is noticeable. But this does not prove after life. I would love if someone could show me or PROVE to me that there is indeed an afterlife- because I would feel less angst about my own existence. Until that day I will go on with the understanding that I am ONLY a collection of cells with cellular energy that will one day no longer exist. My energy will be transferred to some other form- such as fuel for fire if I am cremated, or compost for the earth and food for worms if I am buried. Now if you want to say that our bodies are recycled and composed- then I will say that in itself is some sort of afterlife. After life is not a place in the sky- but maybe just energy. In the words of Einstein: Energy can be neither created nor destroyed.

It makes me sad from a compassionate point of view that people go on believing things that are probably not true as opposed to what is right in front of them. I like to take things for face value by what i can see and what makes actual sense then to imagine what I would like my existance and non-existance to be.

Is there a place for spirituality? Of course. It is a part of being human. If a person wants to believe in God and all of that, that is great, but do not discount the value and worth of science using that belief system. Do not refute scientific worth by using God. In the same way that scientists and evolutionists should not belittle or make light of something that is reality for one person or a group of people. We can all go on believing god, and also questioning science at the same time. It is the cunundrom of the ego, eh?

When i was in college a long long time ago, I had a biology professor say to us: "many scientists go into biology and research trying to disprove god, in the end they can neither prove nor disprove god."

We can, despite our differences, have science and spirituality co-exist without having them be combined into some nonsense like Intellectual design. Spirituality goes on faith, which is immesurable. Science goes on research which is measurable. This is not to say one is right and another is wrong. It is saying perhaps there is more then one way to look at a situation. (and probably millions of other ways as well).

And, lastly, I always say and standby this: Religion is the political application of spirituality.
Hey thanks for reading and responding.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/bookshelf/br.fcgi?book...

http://users.rcn.com/jkimball.ma.ultranet/BiologyP...


RE: evolution and spirituality
By Skywalker123 on 9/28/2010 5:51:49 PM , Rating: 3
When i was in college a long long time ago, I had a biology professor say to us: "many scientists go into biology and research trying to disprove god, in the end they can neither prove nor disprove god."

It would take a real idiot to think he could ever prove or disprove God through science or any other method. People like Gullibility will believe in imaginary beings no matter what the science said.


RE: evolution and spirituality
By tng on 9/28/2010 6:49:23 PM , Rating: 2
well said...


RE: evolution and spirituality
By Squigybits on 9/28/2010 4:07:35 PM , Rating: 2
Argument from ignorance!


By skepticallizzie on 9/28/2010 8:38:45 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks for saying that.
On a lighter note (i am being facetious/hypothetical here for those who feel already offended...so hang tight)
If there is a god or a higher power with human like qualities- such as consciousness, understanding, reason, justice, reason, compassion, and love- who can employ decision making, creation, and destruction-

wouldn't that god also want to be questioned like we all do?
Wouldn't that god also want to check in and see how he's doing?
wouldn't that god also make mistakes?(oh wait, he did....)
wouldn't that omnipotent being either take away our ability to question?
wouldn't that god with human like qualities also know hate, greed, jealousy, envy, need for power, etc.

you cant just choose the human like qualities that are admirable and desirable and apply them to an omnipotent make- believe energy source and then say- here's who's in charge...
its like god becomes a scapegoat for which we cannot understand or don't use our "god-given" abilities to try to reason....(lol)

I mean what species does god identify as?
If god is love, then where the heck is all the love?

There are more holes in the theory of god then there are in darwin's theory of evolution (omg- an evolutionist who actually admits to this...!)

I respect the spiritual beliefs of most people. I believe that we all have the right to express and practice our spirituality as we need to. But do it with an open mind; embrace that you can have both spirituality and still question that spirituality.

The way I see it- if there is no god (which is more probable) then i die like usual and become some compost.

If there is a god- well then- nice to meet you... thanks for letting me have the mind i had while i was alive. by the way- what did you think about all those things? do you have any answers for me? my body will still be compost.

If god is a personal expression- then either way i am good. i have peace with 'god' as being a skeptic.
good night!


Troll for site traffic much?
By nct on 9/28/2010 10:15:57 AM , Rating: 3
Some suggestions for your next article:
All Muslims are Terrorists
All Americans are Lazy and Fat
Study Reveals Disagreeing with Obama is Racist




RE: Troll for site traffic much?
By bhieb on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Troll for site traffic much?
By MPE on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Troll for site traffic much?
By MaulBall789 on 9/28/2010 11:19:35 AM , Rating: 5
And yet, here you are.


RE: Troll for site traffic much?
By MPE on 9/29/2010 9:49:49 AM , Rating: 2
Is every article written by Mick?

Are you really going to argue that Mick and some do not troll its own readers?


RE: Troll for site traffic much?
By inaphasia on 9/28/2010 12:16:53 PM , Rating: 2
But you get to learn a bunch of stuff in the comments section!

For example: Lemmings don't commit suicide... it's Disney that kills 'em!


Theory of human evolution
By Fracture on 9/28/2010 1:09:53 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
44 percent of respondents to a recent 2007 Gallop Poll of U.S. citizens stated that they believed that God created man in its current form (pure creationism)


I have a theory that there are alreaday 2 species of humans that continue to interbreed, but have dramatically different traits. This comes as a response to the nature vs nurture debate - that both may be consequences of being a different type of person.

If a person with an IQ of 66 is functionally retarded compared to a person with an IQ of 100, then what is the person with an IQ of 100 to a person with an IQ of 150? I'm afraid they're just called "creationists".

Now, this isn't to say that a creationist can't be intelligent - plenty of other intelligent people are weak willed too and become addicts to a variety of things. I just think it may be unfair to them to indoctrinate children from birth and not give them a chance to decide.




RE: Theory of human evolution
By flatrock on 9/28/2010 2:39:07 PM , Rating: 2
Please explain to me under what conditions the Theory of Evolution could be either proved or disproved? Please explain to me how this rather long standing theory might become a scientific law?

Evolution hasn't remained unproven because a bunch of religious fanatics oppose it, it has remained unproven since it is essentially unprovable. It is also essentially impossible to disprove.

Have you ever heard the saying that those who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones?

Maybe you should understand the inherrent limitations in what you believe in before calling others idiots.

At least most creationists and those who believe in intelligent design realize that are making a leap of faith beyond what can be proved, which is apparently more than can be said for a lot of so called "scientists" who insist Evolution is fact rather than theory.


RE: Theory of human evolution
By MozeeToby on 9/28/2010 3:20:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Please explain to me under what conditions the Theory of Evolution could be either proved or disproved?
Discovering human (or any other undeniably modern animal's) remains inside a dinosaur skeleton. There you go, you just disproved evolution. You also just disproved geology, radiometry, all the research done into human prehistory, and paleontology, but I digress.
quote:
Please explain to me how this rather long standing theory might become a scientific law?
Please, I'm begging you, go read the definition of a scientific law versus a scientific theory. A law differs from a scientific theory in that it does not posit a mechanism or explanation of phenomena: it is merely a distillation of the results of repeated observation. Evolution posits a mechanism and an explanation, therefore it will never be a scientific law. Not because of any failings in the theory, but because a scientific law and a scientific theory are two very different things. In fact, a law is not necessarily more accurate than a theory. The law of universal gravitation is less accurate that the theory of relativity.


RE: Theory of human evolution
By Fracture on 9/28/2010 3:59:48 PM , Rating: 2
I believe in the theory of evolution the same way I believe in the theory of gravity or the theory of relativity.

These ideas and equations are approximations to help describe the way we perceive things to work and are far more useful than just throwing our hands up and saying "because".

I don't feel that the burden to prove evolution is on me just because proof exists - that's akin to asking someone to put a jigsaw puzzle together without all the pieces. I think that you instead are averting the attention from the fact that creationism has no proof at all.

It doesn't take faith to believe in gravity, or that tectonic plate collisions form mountains. Like evolution, they exist whether or not you choose to believe in it.


What a load of crap
By flatrock on 9/28/2010 1:13:03 PM , Rating: 1
It should surprise no one that you can effect the results of a survey by how the questions are worded. In this case the questions were specifically worded to take advantage of a fear of the unpredictible to shift votes away from strict evoloution.

Not surprisingly priming people to be afraid of unpredictibility had the expected results, but all that tells you is that the particular wording of the question and preparation of the subjects produced those results.

It can't tell you why the other people chose to answer the survey as they did, and it definitely cannot tell you that fear of the unpredictible is the largest factor in their choice. The data they collected does not logically support that conclusion.

If they tweaked the questions a bit and then conditioned the test subjects to fear that their lives might be being influenced by a supernatural force beyond their control and some chose to seek solice in the idea that such events are random, would that mean that the main reason people choose strict evoloution is such fear?

If this is the kind of crap that gets published in a peer reviewed Psychology journal I have little faith in the discipline.




RE: What a load of crap
By tng on 9/28/2010 2:37:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If this is the kind of crap that gets published in a peer reviewed Psychology journal I have little faith in the discipline.
It is a Psychology journal after all, no better way to learn about response than to load the questions.


RE: What a load of crap
By skepticallizzie on 9/28/2010 3:25:15 PM , Rating: 2
lol. I get what you are saying- i agree that statistics are only a reflection of the hypothosis the researchers are trying to prove/disprove. (i am a born skeptic... I continuously question the validity and manner of research and the study) To be proven, another hypothosis must be presented, and then that is challenged to be proven or disproven, and it goes on.
That is what I love about science and reasearch. the constant questions and the relentless answers.
Regarding psychology: awesome! Yes of course the question is formed (by human nature) to be leading. Can I dare state that this is yet another proof of intellectual evolution?
That is precisely what psychology is: the study of the human brain, the human response.... human behavior. we are an odd species for sure.


RE: What a load of crap
By skepticallizzie on 9/28/2010 3:28:29 PM , Rating: 2
lol. I get what you are saying- i agree that statistics are only a reflection of the hypothosis the researchers are trying to prove/disprove. (i am a born skeptic... I continuously question the validity and manner of research and the study) To be proven, another hypothosis must be presented, and then that is challenged to be proven or disproven, and it goes on.
That is what I love about science and reasearch. the constant questions and the relentless answers.
Regarding psychology: awesome! Yes of course the question is formed (by human nature) to be leading. Can I dare state that this is yet another proof of intellectual evolution?
That is precisely what psychology is: the study of the human brain, the human response.... human behavior. we are an odd species for sure.


The Big Flood???
By Magare on 9/29/2010 4:59:04 PM , Rating: 2
1.How come all the dinosaurs died out? Didn’t Noah take them all on the Ark?

2.What happened to all ocean living dinosaurs? The flood shouldn’t have killed them. Where are they gone now?

3.Where did all the water go after the flood receded? There is not enough water frozen in ice today on Earth to completely submerge all mountains. Some “creationists” state that god flattened out Earth so he can be flooded and after that he raised the mountains again. If that is so, how did kangaroos (and all marsupials for that matter) get to Australia? Did they swim to there? How come there are no marsupials anywhere else (besides islands in the close vicinity to Australia)? I suspect evolution.

The list can go on and on...




RE: The Big Flood???
By Quadrillity on 9/29/10, Rating: 0
RE: The Big Flood???
By Magare on 9/29/2010 6:45:14 PM , Rating: 2
Noah should have taken at least one pair of all the different kinds of dinosaurs on the ark, right? Or maybe you consider all dinosaurs as one kind? How do we still see ravens and doves today and we don't see any dinosaurs?

All land vegetation and fungi (mushrooms, for one) cannot survive completely submerged under water (hence we do not see living underwater trees and mushrooms) for a period of 7 months or a year. Do you suggest that seaweeds "evolved" into trees after the flood?

quote:
There have also been discoveries of animals mysteriously populating lifeless and remote islands. No-one knows how that even happens, unless those creatures all swam the distance


Has it appeared to you that they really swam the distance as ocean dwelling creatures and later evolved into land animals and lived in isolation for millions of years? Oh, wait, you do not have millions of years - you only have 6000 or so years at your disposal.

If Noah had taken at least a pair of all land animals on the ark, I seriously doubt he could have fit them all in that ark given the large variety of animals we have living today.


RE: The Big Flood???
By Quadrillity on 9/29/10, Rating: -1
RE: The Big Flood???
By Magare on 9/29/2010 11:22:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
2) They we collected 2 by 2 after their kind . micro evolution happens; it is testable and observable. Noah didn't have to bring the wolf, dog, fox, etc. because they are the same kind of animal. You get the very large number of variations today because we can directly observe that micro evolution does occur.


Reading this answer of yours, as well as some of your other posts, shows how you contradict yourself on at least two ocasions.

Fisrt, you say that wolf, dog and fox are the same kind of animals, and on the other hand you say that humans, gorilas and chimps are not the same kind of animals.

Second, you agree that micro evolution occur, in just a very short timespan (a lifetime), and on the other hand you fail to understand that a chain of micro evolutions lead to macro evolution over long periods of time. Just like micrometers added in a chain make meters and kilometers and so on.


RE: The Big Flood???
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/30/2010 10:11:52 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Just some things to think about. Sure, at some point you are going to have to trust that God actually does what he says that he does.
No, we aren't.


Any one else raised Catholic
By RugMuch on 9/28/2010 11:02:04 AM , Rating: 5
I was raised Catholic but, I am not now. The most interesting thing about being "confirmed" is all the hypocrisy you see. One moment someone will talk about fatalism in the context of their believes and then the next they would talk about how the religion doesn't believe in fate.

BUT!, the most interesting part is the previous Pope wrote a document which basically stated that the Catholic Church believes in "traditional evolution", not intell design. Because they had to start somewhere. Yet, if you ask most Catholics about evolution they say it is wrong.

Why is it that the people who listen to other theories tend to know more about "their" religion and tend to no longer follow their given religion. Or maybe as the old idea goes Patton Oswalt paraphrase (I am no longer Catholic because I was Catholic)

/writing this sort of fast so dismiss the idea disconnect between pharagraphs




Creation
By ss2010 on 9/30/2010 10:54:04 AM , Rating: 2
so beautiful works ,arts , living machines on earth cannot be come as a coincidence or by randomness




RE: Creation
By kd9280 on 9/30/2010 12:02:11 PM , Rating: 2
Not sure if you're arguing for or against evolution, so forgive me if I'm being uselessly argumentative.

The difference between the creation of a beautiful work of art or a machine and the supposed creation of the universe is that the former we have evidence of the creator and the creation (in modern cases.) There is no evidence of a universal creator.

(Also, some works of art do come by randomness, though they're usually abstract.)


The Power Behind Life
By DailyDavid on 10/1/2010 10:32:56 AM , Rating: 2
While there is no doubt in my mind that the majority of people that post comments on this website are highly educated, it strikes me as curious how you can so easily overlook some of the major logical problems with Evolution. That being that intelligence doesn't come from non-intelligence, beauty does not come from non-beauty, order does not come from non-order. Evolution would seek to reverse all of these things. Besides, what is Evolution? Where is the source of it's power to shape and mold life as we know it. It's just word. It's a concept. It's nothing.

Romans 1:18-23

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.




By Albert J on 10/3/2010 4:45:49 AM , Rating: 2
Consensus is not science.

Even Richard Dawkins admits that 1)the fossil record does not back up Darwinism & 2) life on earth is much too complex to have happened accidentally. He claims perhaps aliens seeded life (but then where did the aliens come from and why?)

To believe in Darwinism, first you have to have 'Faith' in random accidental-ism, for which there is zero laboratory scientific proof for. Thus, the very foundation of Darwinism is faith based, and everything else after this initial Faith foundation then is founded on Faith, not science. No one can produce proof life accidentally happened, nor can they produce life from inanimate. Zapping organic compounds produces tar, not Life (which of course brings into question the whole Dinosaur theory of hydrocarbons, but that's a different mythology perpetuated by 'scientists').

While there is more than 90% proof via the current grid Model of Physics that Albert Einstein was correct and Nils Bohr, et al were/are wrong (Nils Bohr argued for faith based accidental-ism, Einstein against as per his famous sound bite quoted above), 'scientists' maintain the consensus of random accidental-ism as 'fact', when there is zero % scientific proof that it's even possible, much less that it actually happened that way.

That my friends is 100% faith based Darwinism. :)




By Albert J on 10/3/2010 5:43:39 AM , Rating: 2
"I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know HIS thoughts, the rest are just details." - Albert Einstein

The current Grid Model of Physics supports Albert vs Accidental-ism by 90% concrete scientific proof. Waiting on the LHC for the other 10%. So far, there is 0% scientific concrete proof of Accidental-ism, ERGO Accidental-ism is 100% faith based. Whoops! :)




Spud or Ass
By Dingmatt on 9/28/2010 11:45:38 AM , Rating: 1
Anyone who doesn't believe in evolution either has the IQ of a spud (potato) or the stubbornness of an ass (donkey).




Wow, what a thorough survey.
By a11b11cd on 9/29/2010 12:06:47 AM , Rating: 1
Since when did 140 undergrads form a basis for a statistic? You may have better luck asking them what the difference is between beers! sheesh.
Your sample set was split twice as well... and the difference is only a few percentage....

I think i should stroll down my college and find a bunch of kids hanging out and ask them to fill out a survey. I am pretty certain 25% would think that women evolved from "pussy" cats.




Tech?
By Homerboy on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Tech?
By amanojaku on 9/28/2010 10:12:52 AM , Rating: 2
DailyTech is a science and technology site. This falls in line with articles discussing genetic findings, drug treatments, etc...

It's just that it's a study about people's beliefs and should probably be in the blogs section. It may be accurate, but there are no scientific breakthroughs.


RE: Tech?
By JasonMick (blog) on 9/28/2010 10:13:32 AM , Rating: 3
You must be new here...

http://www.dailytech.com/Faq.aspx
quote:
# What is DailyTech?
DailyTech is the leading source of news, research and discussion for current and upcoming issues concerning science and technology.


DailyTech's Science Section
http://www.dailytech.com/section.aspx?cat=8


RE: Tech?
By Dr of crap on 9/28/2010 10:50:42 AM , Rating: 2
Yea, but anytime creation or evolution come up, it 500 comments from both sides fighting in trying to change the other side. It's a loosing battle, and it tiresome, and it's old.

Can we move on please and agree to disagree?


RE: Tech?
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Tech?
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Tech?
By zippyzoo on 9/28/2010 12:41:19 PM , Rating: 4
Nope you're still dumb


RE: Tech?
By eskimospy on 9/28/2010 1:11:20 PM , Rating: 3
Absolutely not, and this post explains perfectly why you always get downrated.

All opinions are NOT created equal. Some have evidence to support them, some do not. Opinions that have evidence to support them are superior to those that have lesser evidence, or in the case of creationism, none at all. You have already been told this at least once before, I'm not sure why it is so difficult to understand.

This is not even basic science, this is basic logic and rational argument.


RE: Tech?
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Tech?
By tng on 9/28/2010 2:47:52 PM , Rating: 2
I admire your stubbornness, but when do you just give up?

This is the same as me admitting that I saw a UFO that could in no way be a trick of light, airplane, swamp gas, etc... and then being called crazy.

None of the people that you argue with here will change for anything other than absolute proof and even then they will not believe it. There is nothing beyond themselves and the small world that they restrict themselves to.


RE: Tech?
By LRonaldHubbs on 9/28/2010 3:54:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
None of the people that you argue with here will change for anything other than absolute proof and even then they will not believe it. There is nothing beyond themselves and the small world that they restrict themselves to.

It's interesting how you presume to know the thoughts of strangers. Care to share the nature of that ability? Or was that just rectal extraction?

Obviously I can't speak for anyone else here, but I personally am an atheist because I value evidence and reason. That is, I do not believe an idea until I see proof that it is true. If there were proof that God (whatever that word entails) existed, I'd believe it. You can claim all you want that I am insincere in this statement, but the fact is that you are not in any position to make such a claim.

Furthermore, I have no idea what you mean about restricting myself to a 'small world'. I filter out ideas that have no factual merit. If that is what you mean by restricting myself, then I must point out that clinging to ideas with no basis in reality is actually far more restrictive because it eliminates space which should be occupied by sound and useful ideas.


RE: Tech?
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: 0
RE: Tech?
By LRonaldHubbs on 9/29/2010 10:17:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Please, for the love of God, say that you have never done the same exact thing here on DT. If you say you haven't then you are blatantly lying to everyone.

I know exactly what instance you are referencing -- the discussion about 'college = liberal indoctrination' in which I called you out for having zero credibility. And I still stand by that claim.

I have never claimed to know the thoughts of strangers. I have however made logical predictions about the opinions and motivations of users based upon information from their own posts. BIG difference. What tng claimed above was about the thoughts of strangers, some he could never possibly know, and a gross generalization to top it off.

quote:
So what would provide proof for you? Nothing is the answer, because you already have your mind set. Just like evolutionists and creationist; they already have their minds made up.

Yet another example. You presume to know my thoughts without sufficient information. My calling you out was based upon your repeated failure (further evidenced by your posts in this thread) to compose logical arguments or comprehend facts. Your statement here is a fallacious claim of knowing my thoughts.

You really, truly do not understand what evidence and logic are, do you? Sad. Truly sad.


RE: Tech?
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/30/2010 10:32:11 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nothing is the answer, because you already have your mind set. Just like evolutionists and creationist; they already have their minds made up.
As if YOU don't? Wow....just WOW. You make yourself look more like a dolt each time you post, but of course, you don't care.

"I have proof", you have absolutely ZERO proof of anything you claim to state. You have been so brainwashed with your ways that's pretty pathetic and sad.


RE: Tech?
By tng on 9/28/2010 6:05:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I filter out ideas that have no factual merit.
You don't see the irony here?

By your own admission if you lived in the year 1900, there can be no such thing as a flying machine, because there is no data that such a thing will work......

In other words if you can't believe in something until it is proven true, it is obviously not you that has the imagination that comes up with the ideas to test. After all there is no point if it is not already proven.

Just saying while my views differ from yours and Quad's, if you can't have an open mind on something that has no basis in fact yet or is unproven with only anecdotal evidence, I think that your world is restricted.

By the way, love the name LRon.


RE: Tech?
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 1:41:32 AM , Rating: 2
You picked a bad year.

Leonardo da Vinci included flying machines among his ideas

Otto Lilienthal was killed while testing his hang glider

While the Wrights are credited with the first successful powered flight. Gliders and experimental powered flying machines were being built and tested prior to 1900

No someone using science does not need to prove something to believe. Rather they believe novel ideas because they are able to test them to see if they work.

Faith requires that things not be tested lest they be disproven. Copernicus was prosecuted and convicted of disagreeing with the Revealed Truth. It was the middle of the 20th century when the Catholic Church finally issued a statement saying that Copernicus was probably correct.

So for centuries astronomers used heliocentric theories of planetary motion to simplify the math, while the Church maintained the Truth of the Terracentric Universe by Faith in Revealed Truth and meditation on the Bible.

Only a few decades ago has the official view shifted so that the Revealed Truth more closely aligns with the observed truth.

When crossing a bridge I would prefer not to know that the designers were Faith Engineers trained in the Revealed Truth. Bridges designed by Structural Engineers trained in the observed truth tend to be safer.


RE: Tech?
By tng on 9/29/2010 7:53:55 AM , Rating: 2
Yeh, maybe I did pick a bad year, but the point still stands.

You spoke of Faith, but LRon was clear that he only believed in something that had factual evidence and that would mean anything that had not been tested and proved, not just faith.

So for your bridge analogy, he could look at the plans, see the calcs for structural loads and stress, look at the bill of materials that would be used in construction, but still not believe that it was possible until it was built and people were crossing it.

Has nothing to do with Faith or God.


RE: Tech?
By LRonaldHubbs on 9/29/2010 10:40:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You don't see the irony here?

In other words if you can't believe in something until it is proven true, it is obviously not you that has the imagination that comes up with the ideas to test. After all there is no point if it is not already proven.

There is no irony in what I said, and here is why: unproven ideas do not necessarily lack factual merit. Background knowledge in a particular subject allows one to draw inferences. That is how new ideas arise to be tested. As an electrical engineer I do this every day.

If you came to me with an idea for a circuit, and your justification for why it will work is based upon such ideas as overunity, or the flow of caloric through the aether, or the alignment of the planets during operation of the circuit, I would laugh you out of my office. But if you instead used the justification that you derived it from a similar circuit which worked in a some other application, and that you can model the behavior of the circuit mathematically, then I would be inclined to listen to this new and likely patentable idea. Further investigation such as SPICE simulation and hardware fabrication would ultimately prove or disprove the idea. But in the first case there is absolutely no reason to go that far.

I hope you can see the difference here.

quote:
Just saying while my views differ from yours and Quad's, if you can't have an open mind on something that has no basis in fact yet or is unproven with only anecdotal evidence, I think that your world is restricted.

This statement presumes that I have no experience with religion. That couldn't be further from the truth. Actually for the first 20 or so years of my life I was religious to varying degrees. But after looking at the facts, learning about what it was that I supposedly believed, and understanding that there was no evidence to support any of those beliefs, I changed my mind. Being open-minded has absolutely NOTHING to do with accepting a particular view. All it means is that you give that view consideration. Religion already received my consideration, and no religion has offered anything new in the time since I did so. Ceasing consideration on that basis does not make me closed-minded. If evidence arises which substantiates any particular religion, I will reopen consideration on the basis of that evidence.


RE: Tech?
By LRonaldHubbs on 9/28/2010 3:40:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
My God explains that everyone is created equal in his eyes.

All people are equal, but people =/= opinions. An opinion formed based upon erroneous information is itself erroneous. There is such a thing as a wrong opinion. This is why so many of your posts are rated down, and it is precisely why your above post about 'all opinions are created equal' is fundamentally incorrect. Opinions that lack factual backing or logical consistency are inferior to opinions which do possess those attributes. You have the freedom to feel however you want about that fact, but it is still a fact nonetheless. Logic plays no subjective favorites.


RE: Tech?
By eggman on 9/28/2010 4:33:14 PM , Rating: 2
There we go with God having a sex again. No wonder he raises such a ruckus for time to time, can't find a mate!


RE: Tech?
By eskimospy on 9/28/2010 4:34:02 PM , Rating: 2
Pretty much the entire world thinks the way I do. It's the only thing that's allowed us to progress so far. You are basically arguing that it is impossible to know anything.

By all means take your hilarious umbrage at being called an idiot over to a chemist. Tell him that you're deeply offended that his opinion of what is going on in a chemical reaction is more valid than yours because it would be so terribly low of him to think his thoughts on the subject were more valuable.

Report back and tell us how that goes, you ridiculous fool.

It's not elitism (although recognizing elites when they exist is no flaw), it's anti-stupidity and ignorance. I, quite probably unlike you, fought for this country. So you can can your pathetic attempt at labeling me anti-American too.

Jesus. If pointing out that someone's a moron is anti-American, we're in more trouble than I thought.


RE: Tech?
By Skywalker123 on 9/28/2010 5:53:59 PM , Rating: 2
Blatant idiocy, is what its called any your the prime example.


RE: Tech?
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 1:21:15 AM , Rating: 2
Is an American Hindu anti-American for not worshipping your God.

Claiming that followers of your God are superior due to their belief in the One True God is blatant elite-ism and you are a prime example of this. You must also be anti-American


RE: Tech?
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/29/2010 2:58:11 PM , Rating: 2
A book explains that everyone is equal in his eyes.....a BOOK, written by a HUMAN....


RE: Tech?
By LRonaldHubbs on 9/28/2010 3:25:24 PM , Rating: 2
EXACTLY. I'd vote you up had I not already posted. And you are also right that he has been told this before, because I know for a fact that I have told him this in a past thread.


RE: Tech?
By transamdude95 on 9/28/2010 12:40:11 PM , Rating: 2
Why are you describing yourself? This isn't bio-time.


RE: Tech?
By abscode on 9/28/2010 1:33:47 PM , Rating: 2
While you are entitled to your own opinions and thoughts, you are not entitled to your own facts. And the facts are not with you.


RE: Tech?
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 2:17:53 PM , Rating: 1
search this article for my example of the grand canyon for facts and interpretations of the facts.

You can say FACT all you want, but your opinion is no more or less valid then mine.


RE: Tech?
By transamdude95 on 9/28/2010 4:03:46 PM , Rating: 2
I would equate your opinion to that of a child, and, therefore, it is less valid than abscode's opinion. A child believes in Santa because others tell him he exists. You believe in god because others have told you he exists. A child does not look at evidence and follow logical steps in analyzing said evidence, instead taking imagination and creating his/her own story. You do the same, except you just use another's imagination and story.

It seems unimaginable that someone with an adult's mental capacity can think evolution is a myth and that there was an old man who really did build a giant ship with the help of animals to survive a flood that covered the entire planet. Yet, you are such a person.


RE: Tech?
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 4:15:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
A child believes in Santa because others tell him he exists. You believe in god because others have told you he exists.

There's another example of someone claiming to know what I believe and how I came to believe it.
quote:
A child does not look at evidence and follow logical steps in analyzing said evidence, instead taking imagination and creating his/her own story.

What?! You can't be serious! You obviously have NO roots in child psychology.
quote:
It seems unimaginable that someone with an adult's mental capacity can think evolution is a myth and that there was an old man who really did build a giant ship with the help of animals to survive a flood that covered the entire planet. Yet, you are such a person.

I'm guessing you were/still are the school bully? Feel like a big man now?


RE: Tech?
By transamdude95 on 9/28/2010 4:56:51 PM , Rating: 2
Considering how often you post, I would be surprised to find someone without an idea of what you believe.

YOU obviously have no roots in child psychology if you believe that a 3 or 4 year old not only has the capability of using sound logic and reasoning to analyze evidence, but also instinctively move in this direction immediately upon finding said evidence. Your response to my statement shows nothing but that you jump to conclusions defensively (and include exclamation points in an attempt to solidify your position).

Now, you resort to name-calling? You attempt to label me as a bully because I relate your lack of logic and your fantastical belief in fictional story to that of a child? Way to show your maturity.


RE: Tech?
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 6:04:34 PM , Rating: 2
Children do show logical deduction at 3 and 4; fact.

I call you a bully because you insist on labeling me a mentally handicapped because I have faith in a higher power. That, my friend, is called religious persecution. Good luck living the kind of life where all you do it hate, then hate some more.


RE: Tech?
By YashBudini on 9/28/2010 7:18:47 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Good luck living the kind of life where all you do it hate, then hate some more.

Now there's irony, considering terrorists, foreign and American, do exactly what you stated based on their religious beliefs.

That's why people are starting to hate religion.


RE: Tech?
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 8:23:20 PM , Rating: 2
Don't confuse Islam with Christianity. Islam teaches that you should cut the head off of non-believers. Christianity teaches that you should not murder and to treat others as you would be treated.

quote:
That's why people are starting to hate religion.

I could argue that people hate religion because they don't believe that they are sinners, and will one day be judged for them.


RE: Tech?
By YashBudini on 9/28/2010 10:37:59 PM , Rating: 1
The Crusades weren't based on Islam.


RE: Tech?
By YashBudini on 9/28/2010 11:55:22 PM , Rating: 2
Is this work in the name of Christianity? He certainly thinks it is, just like all the other zealots.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THx1LhJO63s

And zealots can be found in all religions.


RE: Tech?
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 2:01:55 AM , Rating: 2
Am I also supposed to fail to confuse Protestants (Ulster Defense Force. Roundheads, etc.) and Catholics (Irish Republican Army, Crusaders, Spanish Inquisition etc.) with Christians?

A truly peace loving man was Oliver Cromwell. He figured you were better off dead if you disagreed with his religion. A grand way to gain peace.

The fine Christians of Bosnia who raped and murdered their Moslem neighbors.

The fine Christians of Germany who assisted the Nazis (a minority party up until they were outlawed) in rounding up and exterminating those deemed "different" (The Holocaust was not limited to Jews, that part really was Zionist propoganda. The real Holocaust also included Romany, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, mental patients, many forms of handicap and more)

Of course the fine White Anglo Saxon Protestants of the Old South never put on white hooded robes and terrorised the countryside as the Ku Klux Klan. They also never participated in the lynchings meant to terrorise their black neighbors.

There have been no incidents of mosques and synagogues in this fine and Christian country being defaced or attacked by Christians attempting to purify the country.

Christians would never participate in witch hunts. Okay credit to Americans here, 'only' 200 or so died in witch trials...in Europe the Christians killed off thousands of witches.

Nope Christians are fine upstanding people who will never resort to violence once they have those pesky unbelievers driven out.


RE: Tech?
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 9:27:01 AM , Rating: 2
Nice fallacy you pulled out there. I can do the same thing, watch:

The murderers of Columbine were atheists that believe in evolution. Therefore, all atheists/evolutionists are murderers!

quote:
Nope Christians are fine upstanding people who will never resort to violence once they have those pesky unbelievers driven out.

You are a complete fool.


RE: Tech?
By mcnabney on 9/29/2010 11:30:15 AM , Rating: 2
Your right, Christianity doesn't go for lopping off heads.

They prefer dunking machines
or the rack
or stoning
or The Wheel
or burning at the stake

Currently the Christians are only dropping bombs on villages of Muslims. They don't even bother looking their victims in the eye before dispatching them.

/there is no god (or gods)
//because there is no evidence of one or of divine actions
///the Old Testament is chok-full of divine acts and a regular basis
//What? He has a kid and now he just sits on the couch every day?


RE: Tech?
By cornelius785 on 9/28/2010 12:48:31 PM , Rating: 1
I've gotten sick of 'articles' like this. They ALL devolve (how appropriate of a word) into a flame war bashing religion, intelligent design, creationism, and evolution. I wish there was an author ignore feature here, but sadly there is not.

Yeah sure, call your article science, but this is just another one of your articles to bash religion/creationism/intelligent design. Your comments also prove this. You are nothing more than a troll looking for site traffic and to cause angst among commenters and readers (don't tell me they commenters or readers aren't angry). I liked reading computer/tech articles when it was directly under anandtech and continue later as a somewhat seperate entity being dailytech. As soon as I see a title that is evolution related I already know 2 facts: mick wrote it and the thread will devolve into flamewar (where nothing good results from it). There is no visible moderation going on (aside from the ranking + view threshold), so uninitelligent conversations is the only result. Anyone with intelligence know that political and religion (in any remote sense) will become a yelling match. A non-troll would atleast make an attempt to keep the peace or perhaps *GASP* avoid the subject entirely. Because of you, dailytech has earned the distinction of no longer being worth my time to visit.


RE: Tech?
By LRonaldHubbs on 9/29/2010 10:50:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I wish there was an author ignore feature here, but sadly there is not.

Sure there is, it's called self control. Allow me to demonstrate:

Step 1: Read headline.
Step 2: Click link.
Step 3: Read author's name.
Step 4: Decide to read or not read.


Lol
By Botia on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Lol
By corduroygt on 9/28/2010 10:48:11 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think people hate close-minded idiots, but feel sorry for them instead.


RE: Lol
By DrApop on 9/28/2010 10:53:58 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
ne they show evidence against evolution. One that they do not show anything. Then ask them to answer the questions.


Because that is a poorly designed experiment and wouldn't show much of anything. And how do you "not show anything"?


RE: Lol
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 3:29:49 AM , Rating: 2
By designing an experiment that would disprove the theory. With it designed in this manner, a failure of the experiment supports the theory.

Similar to the Michaelson-Morely experiment. Their hypothesis was that the speed of light in a vacuum is not constant. They designed a test that would return a result that would confirm or disprove their hypothesis. It worked. The hypothesis that was being tested failed and they are in the history books for their "success" in proving that c is a universal constant :P

With the Theories of Relativity, Einstein further proved that it is so invariant that time and space will change to allow it to remain constant. This drives people up the wall, but real world observations keep supporting Einstein's theories.


RE: Lol
By lolmuly on 9/28/2010 10:58:58 AM , Rating: 2
here's the problem, evolution isn't a belief, it is a proven fact. If you say you believe the evidence, then you obviously haven't actually seen the evidence.... Take some biology courses and a couple of anthropology courses and come back after you've had to research fossil records (There's a whole lot more than you could even imagine)....

People keep trying to make evolution about belief or non-belief... Evolution has nothing to do with belief.

P.S.

Tell everybody you know to stop saying: "Well evolution is only a theory"

In the scientific world, theory == fact

hypothesis == unproven idea

you are basically saying: "Well evolution is only a fact"


RE: Lol
By lolmuly on 9/28/2010 11:00:08 AM , Rating: 2
*If you say you don't believe the evidence,*

sorry I should proof-read


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: 0
RE: Lol
By Flunk on 9/28/2010 11:21:01 AM , Rating: 2
Macroevolution doesn't exist, when did you do your research 1970?


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 6:31:17 PM , Rating: 2
HAHA, macro evolution doesn't exist... That's a new one. So it only exists when you are out to prove your point right? Or are you admitting that the only kind of evolution that is observable is micro (which is most definitely true, as we see variations in kinds all the time)?


RE: Lol
By kd9280 on 9/28/2010 11:28:19 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
FACT: The Grand Canyon exists.

opinion: It was formed over millions of years by a river
opinion: It was formed in a matter of a few days due to wash out from the great flood of Noah.


FACT: The Colorado river exists and winds through the canyon.
FACT: Rivers have been seen to erode landscapes.
FACT: Over long periods of time, erosion can cut very deeply into certain rocks.
FACT: The strata of the Grand Canyon displays layers of differing ages as consistent with strata elsewhere showing the age as millions of years.
FACT: There is no scientific proof of a worldwide, catastrophic flood.

CONCLUSION: Evidence strongly suggests that the Grand Canyon was formed over millions of years by erosion due to the Colorado River.

quote:
1. abiogenesis
2. macro-evolution (change from one kind of animal to another)


1. Abiogensis is NOT evolution.
2. Only creationists differentiate macro- and micro- evolution. First, explain to me what a 'kind' is. Is a 'kind' everything similar (cat-kind, dog-kind, goat-kind) or is a 'kind' something more specific (small-cat-kind, large-cat-kind, horse-kind, donkey-kind, zebra-kind.)

Related to 'macro-'evolution, I assume you believe in adaptation. What is the arbitrary limit on a lot of different adaptations possibly stacking up to change one 'kind' of animal into another 'kind' of animal?

(I prefer the word 'population' when referring to any 'kind' of animal)


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: 0
RE: Lol
By darkweasel on 9/28/2010 12:19:36 PM , Rating: 3
You certainly go on and on about not believing anything that you can't directly observe, but then go straight back to spouting God God God... which no one can observe.

And don't give me the bible as proof, or I'll give you the Lord of the Rings as proof of elves.


RE: Lol
By skepticallizzie on 9/28/2010 1:01:21 PM , Rating: 2
Lord of the Rings- i mean there is not only ONE, but a series of BOOKS regarding the creation of middle earth and I believe (because i own them) there are books that interpret the Tolkein languages. So that is real then too.
i am really happy that you pointed that out because personally i like the Tolkein creation story better.
lol.


RE: Lol
By transamdude95 on 9/28/2010 12:22:58 PM , Rating: 2
I will not waste time arguing with someone who's opinion is so deeply rooted in fiction/faith, as it really is pointless/fruitless. I will point out the following... How can you say he falls flat when stating "over long periods of time, erosion can cut very deeply into certain rocks."? This is not an assumption. Let me put it simply for you, if over a 'short' period of time, a river erodes the rock below it ever so slightly, it is LOGICAL and certainly FACTUAL that if you increase the amount of time, you will increase the amount of erosion. How can you say this is not true? It would be like saying 1+1=2, but if you add another 1, you cannot be sure you will reach 3... you can only assume to reach 3.


RE: Lol
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 2:53:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I will not waste time arguing with someone who's opinion is so deeply rooted in fiction/faith, as it really is pointless/fruitless.

Then why didn't you stop typing?


RE: Lol
By transamdude95 on 9/28/2010 4:04:56 PM , Rating: 2
Did you see me argue with him (requires back and forth)? Re-read what I said and then realize your stupidity.


RE: Lol
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 4:17:55 PM , Rating: 2
I believe it was this small segment buried in you rather drawn out post:
quote:
I will point out the following... How can you say he falls flat when stating "over long periods of time, erosion can cut very deeply into certain rocks."? This is not an assumption. Let me put it simply for you, if over a 'short' period of time, a river erodes the rock below it ever so slightly, it is LOGICAL and certainly FACTUAL that if you increase the amount of time, you will increase the amount of erosion. How can you say this is not true? It would be like saying 1+1=2, but if you add another 1, you cannot be sure you will reach 3... you can only assume to reach 3.


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 2:57:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
1+1=2, but if you add another 1, you cannot be sure you will reach 3... you can only assume to reach 3.

....? We are talking about evolution and you bring mathematics as an example of proof?


RE: Lol
By transamdude95 on 9/28/2010 4:10:41 PM , Rating: 2
??? rudumb?


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 6:32:59 PM , Rating: 2
r u 14 years old?


RE: Lol
By kd9280 on 9/28/2010 1:38:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You only got to your third point until you fell flat. "over long periods of time..." Can you not see that this is an assumtion aka "opinion" since it is NOT OBSERVABLE.


It's an observation based on facts. Already it was addressed above this post, but if you view a river as being able to erode soft strata to a small amount in a short period of time, it is logical to suspect that over an increased period of time, that same strata would show increased signs of erosion. Soil erodes, this is a fact. Certain soils erode at different rates, this is also a fact. Extend that same rate of the different soils or rock layers in the Grand Canyon, and it would be evidence that the Colorado River did, indeed, erode the canyon.

quote:
Millions of years.... again, unobservable. If your opinion on strata is millions of years, then why do people discover fossolized trees groing through "millions of years" of strata?


I'm no geologist, so I'll let geologists explain it:
http://www.don-lindsay-archive.org/creation/polyst...
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.h...
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/paleosol.htm
http://museum.gov.ns.ca/places/joggins/tree.htm

quote:
Yes there is, I just gave several of them. My opinion about the matter isn't "scientific" or valid just because you say so? I don't think so; mine is just as valid as yours.


As I mentioned above, I am no geologist, so I cannot respond to your evidence of global flooding. I have seen it discussed elsewhere, and I have seen it mentioned that if a global flood happened, it would be different than it is now, but I cannot address it further.

quote:
Ok then. What kind of evolution are we talking about here? Cosmic, stellar, chemical,organic, macro, micro? Do you believe in the big bang theory?


I am speaking of the theory of evolution as it pertains to the different populations of creatures on our planet. The change in alleles and genes through different generations.

And yes, I believe in the Big Bang theory, it has nothing to do with evolution, though.

quote:
That is purely false. Throw out ALL evidence that assumes micro leads to micro and see what is left. Nothing.


I have never seen a scientific article that says 'macro-evolution' unless it is in response to a creationist question. And why would one throw out evidence of 'micro' leading to (I assume you mean) 'macro'? The evidence is there, why would you ignore it?

quote:
"kinds" of animals: A dog is a kind of animal. A dog produces another dog. Not a cat, not a clam. Kinds are certainly subjective, but that doesn't exclude the fact that we all agree (for the most part) on what kinds of animals exist.


No one agrees on what 'kinds' of animals exist. Scientists understand 'populations' as the number of a certain species that exists in an area at this current point in time. Creationists have never come up with a standard by which to measure 'kinds' and when something comes along to provide evidence their 'kind' is a wrong assumption, they shift the goalposts. Different creationists think different things.

quote:
I couldn't possibly know the answer to that question, but the fact remains that there is zero proof of macro evolution. Variations within species or kinds DOES NOT translate to a different kind of animal. We have never seen two dogs produce a cat. You did not give me any examples of this; I am still waiting.


Two dogs would never create a cat. In fact, if two dogs did create a cat, that would be evidence against evolution, because that is impossible as far as evolutionary theory suggests.

There is evidence (never proof, only mathematics has proofs) that suggests that creatures have evolved. Similar structures between different species, similarities between chromosomes, vestigial structures, transitional fossils, speciation (which I explain below), and the list goes on. What is the evidence for creation?

I'll give you a scenario I gave elsewhere:
Suppose there is a population of a creature living in an area. Some calamity befalls this area - tornado, brushfire, earthquake, etc - that separates this population. Half of the population travels into the mountains and the other half into the grasslands.

The half that moved into the mountains must adapt to its living space now. Only the most nimble can catch the animals in this new territory. It also helps that the more grey or white colored members of this population blend in with their surroundings. The most nimble and the grey and white members would be stronger and more capable of passing on their genetics to the next generation.

The half that moved into the grasslands need to be faster, to be able to catch up with the runners. They need to also be more brown in color to blend in with their surroundings. The faster, browner creatures would be more capable of passing on their genetics to the next generation.

This is 'micro-evolution.' As these species change and get more and more adapted to their new climates, they will spread out. Eventually, two populations of this formerly single population could meet again, and they would be incapable of mating. They are two completely different populations now, this is 'macro-evolution.'


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 2:36:48 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
This is 'micro-evolution.' As these species change and get more and more adapted to their new climates, they will spread out. Eventually, two populations of this formerly single population could meet again, and they would be incapable of mating. They are two completely different populations now, this is 'macro-evolution.'

Show me an observed example from where 1 kind of animal split into a different kind of animal. A domestic cat and a tiger cannot breed; they are still both kinds of cats.

You give an example of variations in the kinds, then make a magical leap to different kinds. I believe you used the term "eventually". You had to use that term because not one single person has come forward to provide me with the living proof of a kind producing another kind. It's all on faith and assumption that kinds make different kinds. You have already assumed that this earth has been around for millions/billions of years, so you can't escape anything outside of that scope. It makes you very close minded.


RE: Lol
RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 5:29:28 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, you should me an article of birds. Had the bird produced a non-bird I would have considered studying it further.


RE: Lol
By kd9280 on 9/28/2010 3:40:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Show me an observed example from where 1 kind of animal split into a different kind of animal. A domestic cat and a tiger cannot breed; they are still both kinds of cats.

You give an example of variations in the kinds, then make a magical leap to different kinds. I believe you used the term "eventually". You had to use that term because not one single person has come forward to provide me with the living proof of a kind producing another kind. It's all on faith and assumption that kinds make different kinds. You have already assumed that this earth has been around for millions/billions of years, so you can't escape anything outside of that scope. It makes you very close minded.


No population will suddenly produce a different species in a single generation. This is a ridiculous creationist canard that is often repeated. I can confidently say that in the history of the world, no one population grew out of another after one generation. So yes, no dog has ever produced a cat and never will produce a cat.

That is, however, not what evolution states, and let's make this clear. Evolution is merely the change in alleles between generations of a population. Do you agree with this as the definition of evolution?

Given enough time (I'll get to this in a moment) natural selection, selective pressures, genetic drift, and sexual selection will make populations change. If one animal of a population is somehow healthier or more well-adapted to their environment than another, that animal will be more likely to pass on its genes. Over time, evolution will favor the healthier, well-adapted population, and the other may either pass into extinction or develop other adaptations to survive in a different environmental niche. (See Darwin's finches or the Galapagos iguanas or the boobies.)

As for the time issue, I will subscribe to scientific radiometric dating, as well as archaeological, anthropological, paleontological, and geological evidence that shows our planet is, indeed, quite old. There is so very little evidence our planet is young.

And lastly - close-minded would mean that I don't see outside of my own inherent thoughts. I do research, I read both sides of the argument. If one side of the argument fails to provide any scientific evidence, I will dismiss it. So far, creationism has provided bubkiss. Anything it argues is either a misinterpretation of some scientific understanding or is refuted by scientific evidence.

This question has never been answered - What scientific evidence is there to show that the universe was created? There is none, other than creationists making claims that 'it looks created' 'the Bible says it was created' or 'evolution can't explain this.' None of these are scientific evidences of creation.


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 6:26:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No population will suddenly produce a different species in a single generation.

So we have to take on faith that it happens because we cannot observe it? I rest my case...
quote:
As for the time issue, I will subscribe to scientific radiometric dating, as well as archaeological, anthropological, paleontological, and geological evidence that shows our planet is, indeed, quite old. There is so very little evidence our planet is young.

Radio-dating is a completely useless idea. It requires you to believe that it just works because of all the massive assumptions that you have to make for it to work.
All of the others in the list are, well, lets just say subject to opinion. If you want to stand there and say, "A scientists said so" then you will be the very same thing I am accused of when people say, "God said so". Don't tell me yours is any better then mine.
quote:
So far, creationism has provided bubkiss. Anything it argues is either a misinterpretation of some scientific understanding or is refuted by scientific evidence.

Sounds like a cult. You have to have others tell you what to believe.

My god made it so that ANYONE could pick up the Bible, start reading, and understand what is meant to be understood. I don't need a professor/Dr. of geology/whoever else to explain to me what the bible says. I read it, and I understand.

quote:
This question has never been answered - What scientific evidence is there to show that the universe was created?

Ah, we get to the point that you ask for "scientific" evidence of God. Wouldn't you be so kind as to point out where real/testable/observable science could fall into the category of pure religious belief? Sure the two can certainly mix sometimes, but you want proof that you will never accept! lol.

But anyways, here goes:

1. When the first sexual reproducing organism emerged, where did it find it's first mate?
2. How fast did something as complex as the eye evolve?
3. Why are there so many similar "designs" in nature? Certainly there would be many more variations than already exist! How many creature have rib-cages? Did they all "evolve" from the same being?
4. Do you look at a laptop computer and think, "wow, a tornado must have plowed through a pile of silica and created this wonderful machine! No, you say, "I wonder who created this." You don't have to physically see the creator to know that it was created.
5. Evolution by means of genetic mutation is not viable. Show me an example of DNA mutation in which a. the organism survived and was functional b. information was not LOST instead of gained.
6. Why can a domestic cat and a tiger/lion mate and produce but have sterile offspring? Has it ever been observed that the offspring is NOT sterile? If not, then why would you take it on faith that it does happen, when clearly it is not testable and observable (which is the definition of science btw)

I'm sure I can think of many more, but try those for a while. I'm eagerly waiting a response.


RE: Lol
By kd9280 on 9/28/2010 9:08:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So we have to take on faith that it happens because we cannot observe it? I rest my case...


You obviously didn't read what I said. No population will become a different species in a single generation. It takes a long time. However, there is a lot of evidence to suggest that evolution has happened because of reasons I've alluded to before: homologous structures, vestigial organs, gene transfer, chromosome similarities, and so forth. (You've mentioned something later. I'll get to it soon.)

You missed my question though. Once again do you agree with the following? Evolution is the change in alleles between generations

If you do not, then you are not arguing against evolution.

quote:
Radio-dating is a completely useless idea. It requires you to believe that it just works because of all the massive assumptions that you have to make for it to work. All of the others in the list are, well, lets just say subject to opinion. If you want to stand there and say, "A scientists said so" then you will be the very same thing I am accused of when people say, "God said so". Don't tell me yours is any better then mine.


Radiometric dating requires no assumption. A certain isotope has a certain half life, so measuring the amount of that isotope within a structure should - logically - show how old that structure is.

Archaeologists have found signs of civilizations that are quite old - 7-8000 years old. Not to mention cave paintings and such, which are even older still (although that is more anthropological, which also covers pre-Homo Sapiens.)

Paleontologists have found many fossils, not only do they appear regularly in the same types and ages of strata, but they can use this to judge precisely where they'll find similar animals (read "Your Inner Fish", Shubin explains this very well.)

Geologists have studied strata, and every bit of this strata is more or less able to be judged where and when it was laid down. Simply viewing a laid down area, a geologist knows the approximate age of the area from the observed strata.

Scientists say so in a much different way than god says so. Scientists will observe and write down findings in a testable manner. They will give these findings to everyone to read and to test and retest. If someone finds something refuting their science, they're told so, and they have to rethink their original hypothesis. That is how science works. No one can test 'god did it.' It is not science.

quote:
Sounds like a cult. You have to have others tell you what to believe. My god made it so that ANYONE could pick up the Bible, start reading, and understand what is meant to be understood. I don't need a professor/Dr. of geology/whoever else to explain to me what the bible says. I read it, and I understand.


Yet your Bible has also been interpreted many different ways by different people. Some people who read the Bible regularly believe that evolution is real. Some read the Bible and believe that god laid down the world in six literal days 6000 years ago. It's a book open to interpretation. One obviously many Christians don't even agree on (you've got 30,000 different denominations, and rising.)

quote:
Ah, we get to the point that you ask for "scientific" evidence of God. Wouldn't you be so kind as to point out where real/testable/observable science could fall into the category of pure religious belief? Sure the two can certainly mix sometimes, but you want proof that you will never accept! lol.


I never said scientific evidence for God. I said give me scientific evidence that the universe was created. I never said by whom or by what or when or anything. I'll answer your questions.

quote:
1. When the first sexual reproducing organism emerged, where did it find it's first mate?


As I understand it (I'm no biologist, but I've read up on it.) The first sexually reproducing organisms were hermaphrodites (snails and worms still currently are.) There is a lot better genetic transfer that can occur when two beings mate than when a single one does. After hermaphrodites came creatures that spread only a single type of gamete (sponges.) Over time, these creatures would start to split into pure male and pure female.

quote:
2. How fast did something as complex as the eye evolve?


It probably took a very long time. Likely the first start was a light-sensitive patch of cells, then it turned into a shallow pit, then that pit was covered up to a pinhole form, then fluids filled the inside, few more iterations provided the iris and the retina and cornea. Our eyes actually kind of suck compared to other species.

quote:
3. Why are there so many similar "designs" in nature? Certainly there would be many more variations than already exist! How many creature have rib-cages? Did they all "evolve" from the same being?


We likely did. I don't honestly know the 'tree of life' enough to say what creatures share ancestries. However, we do share ancestries with creatures that are similar.

quote:
4. Do you look at a laptop computer and think, "wow, a tornado must have plowed through a pile of silica and created this wonderful machine! No, you say, "I wonder who created this." You don't have to physically see the creator to know that it was created.


Yes, but we know a person created a laptop. We have evidence of a person being in a room putting it together. We can see people daily making them. There is at least evidence of a creator in those cases. There is no evidence of a creator in the case of the universe.

quote:
5. Evolution by means of genetic mutation is not viable. Show me an example of DNA mutation in which a. the organism survived and was functional b. information was not LOST instead of gained.


You. You're a DNA mutation of your parents. In fact, you're a DNA mutation of your parents (IIRC) with 400 different genetic changes. The vast, vast majority of mutations are neutral. Some are detrimental. Others are positive - such as bacteria becoming resistant to antibiotics, insects becoming resistant to pesticides, humans being able to resist AIDS or heart disease, and so on.

quote:
6. Why can a domestic cat and a tiger/lion mate and produce but have sterile offspring? Has it ever been observed that the offspring is NOT sterile? If not, then why would you take it on faith that it does happen, when clearly it is not testable and observable (which is the definition of science btw)


Well, a domestic cat and a tiger/lion probably couldn't mate. But a tiger and a lion could. Ligers and tigons are very rarely non-sterile. However, you're not arguing evolution here at all. Evolution is the genetic changes within a single population. Tigers and lions are different populations (heck, they don't even live on the same continent.)


RE: Lol
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 10:38:12 PM , Rating: 2
First thing I'm going to say is, do you not have access to Google? Seriously, most of these answers can be found if you actually took the time to look it up yourself.

quote:
1. When the first sexual reproducing organism emerged, where did it find it's first mate?

You act as though the first sexually reproducing organism popped out with a fully working dimorphic set of genitals. The first sexually reproducing organisms were most likely hermaphrodites(which still exist), and most like had rudimentary DNA transfer.

quote:
2. How fast did something as complex as the eye evolve?
How is that relevant? What does it matter how fast it took? The question should be how, not how fast. And the guy above me explained it pretty well already.

quote:
3. Why are there so many similar "designs" in nature? Certainly there would be many more variations than already exist! How many creature have rib-cages? Did they all "evolve" from the same being?


Two answers to this. Animals that have very similar skeletal structures most likely did evolve from a common ancestor. Animals that are completely unrelated but have similar structures do so by a process called convergent evolution. This means that those similar functioning but differently formed structures (like wings on a bird and wings on a bug) formed because the advantages the trait offers was selected for on unrelated lineages.

Ironically, this question is actually an argument for evolution and against creationism. With evolution and natural selection, we would expect convergent evolution to occur, as we would expect certain traits, like flying, to provide a similar advantage to unrelated creatures. On the other hand, if an omnipotent god created all animals, why would it constantly create similar structures and functionality? If the god is really all powerful, we would expect to see a broad range of completely unrelated structures and functionality because only a god would have the power to create such a thing.

quote:
4. Do you look at a laptop computer and think, "wow, a tornado must have plowed through a pile of silica and created this wonderful machine! No, you say, "I wonder who created this." You don't have to physically see the creator to know that it was created.

No, because I have pre-existing knowledge of laptops being produced, I have seen laptops being produced, and I know laptops are a human design. The "Watchmaker" argument is really grasping at straws.

quote:
5. Evolution by means of genetic mutation is not viable. Show me an example of DNA mutation in which a. the organism survived and was functional b. information was not LOST instead of gained.


Are you the exact same height as your parents? Do you have the same color eyes? Do you have the same color hair? You literally have hundreds of genetic mutations that differentiate you from your parents. Clearly, you survived.

quote:
6. Why can a domestic cat and a tiger/lion mate and produce but have sterile offspring? Has it ever been observed that the offspring is NOT sterile? If not, then why would you take it on faith that it does happen, when clearly it is not testable and observable (which is the definition of science btw)


Sterile offspring are produced when two animals from different species that contain different amount of chromosomes reproduce. The different amount of chromosomes often leaves the offspring with an odd number of chromosomes, thus leaving them infertile. Take a look at the mule for instance. Cross between a horse and a donkey which in most instances is infertile, but on extremely rare occasions, fertile offspring has been produced. I don't know why you are arguing about this though, as hybridization doesn't constitute a very significant mechanism for evolution.


RE: Lol
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/29/2010 10:50:45 AM , Rating: 2
HUMAN has made the bible so ANYONE can read it.


RE: Lol
By BikeDude on 9/28/2010 11:33:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
provide me with living proof of...


Skepticism is good and commendable. But how about applying half of that skepticism towards creationism, which is a hypothesis currently backed by exactly 0/zero evidence?


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 12:12:33 PM , Rating: 2
I provided a few bits of evidence for my postulates. I asked that someone bring forth a living example of macro evolution, yet no-one returned any results. I make only claims that I can back up. If you are claiming that animals change from one kind to another (macro evo.) then you need to provide (true ie testable, observable) evidence for it.

quote:
which is a hypothesis currently backed by exactly 0/zero evidence?

Says who? Is there no evidence because you say that there is none? Or are you just misunderstanding the difference between facts and interpretations of the facts. Smoke and mirrors...

I'm sick and tired of saying that evidence is subjective. Some of you ABSOLUTELY REFUSE to understand this.


RE: Lol
By inaphasia on 9/28/2010 12:35:36 PM , Rating: 2
You really need to get your hands on a copy of The Selfish Gene (written over 30 years ago). It'll help you get your head around the concept of evolution.

Now, before you go ballistic, I'll admit Dawkins is a bit of a primadonna.... but his books are fantastic.


RE: Lol
By lolmuly on 9/28/2010 6:05:11 PM , Rating: 2
Dude seriously, get off your high horse, evidence is not subjective......

Remember High-School Geometry? They made you do proofs?

You would prove a theorem based upon a series of postulations.

Postulate
Postulate
Postulate
Theorem
Proof

You make postulations that are directly observable. Postulations that have absolutely no evidence contradicting them. Then you prove your theorem based on those postulations.

Did you miss all of that in school? Did you sleep through it or something?

This is how science works my friend, this is why they have hypothesis, and theories.

Sure theories are proven wrong all of the time, but they are also replaced by theories that better fit the directly observable evidence.

All facts are based on this directly observable evidence. If you want to argue a specific theory, okay, here's how:

write a research paper, publish it in a scientific journal, have it reviewed by thousands of peers, and if they say your argument is valid, bravo! Welcome to the scientific community! We could really use your help! But until you produce some evidence of god, or allah, or noah's flood, or xenu, or planet x, or the flying freaking spaghetti monster, go back to your paranoid little hole.


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 6:37:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
write a research paper, publish it in a scientific journal, have it reviewed by thousands of peers, and if they say your argument is valid, bravo! Welcome to the scientific community!

You fail hard at this point of the post. Is this your admission that you believe only scienctists with peer reviews papers can be factual? If that is your thinking, then I don't want to continue this conversation.

You are just another one of those drones that confuse facts with interpretations of facts. Look at my post in this article about the grand canyon.

If you absolutely cannot admit that "facts" are not the same as evidence for facts, then I can not help you; nor am I willing to waste my time on a willingly ignorant person.


RE: Lol
By lolmuly on 9/28/2010 6:47:55 PM , Rating: 2
yes, because i believe that the collective minds of thousands of people are far better than a single mind.

The only way you could think any different is to believe that your intelligence is superior to everyone else's.

Which I hate to say it, but you or i, or anyone else for that matter will ever be smarter than the human race as a whole (not that our race always makes the brightest choices :p).


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 8:37:51 PM , Rating: 2
Something we can agree on I guess, unless I misunderstood you. 99.999999% of the population can believe something and still turn out to be wrong. Kinda like how almost everyone at one point in history was teaching that the earth was flat, and the other planets revolved around earth.

(the bible clearly teaches that the earth is in fact round, and that the planets and sun do not revolve around us; just fyi)


RE: Lol
By lolmuly on 9/28/2010 10:30:18 PM , Rating: 2
haha... well if you wanna start interpreting biblical stories, look at the creation story.

How's it go? The first day light heavens earth, second day water, land, etc 3rd plants, 4th day fish in the sea, animals, 5th day fruit bearing plants etc etc?

That sounds suspiciously like the big bang and evolution no?

And for a couple thousand years churches interpreted the "circle of the earth" to mean the earth was a flat disc, but now that they have been proven wrong, you are interpreting it to mean a sphere no?

So what if in fact you are wrong? isn't it just as convenient to interpret genesis to mean creation as it is to mean evolution?

Why then do you insist on interpreting it one way or the other when your book does not clearly specify which?
So why then if there is so much evidence pointing toward evolution, do you insist on interpreting it to mean creation? Is it maybe that you've been taught to interpret it a certain way?

Maybe that's what this study proves, that you are more convinced by what you have been taught than the evidence presented to you due to some unknown factor in your life...

I mean it's possible no? if you say facts aren't always factual, how are one person's interpretation of a biblical metaphor any better than another? Why is your particular church's interpretation correct and not another churches?

I'll Quote Kierkegaard from the beginning of Fear and Trembling when he talks about the man who was obsessed with the story of Abraham:

"The older he became, the more frequently his mind reverted to that story, his enthusiasm became greater and greater, and yet he was less and less able to understand the story."

Just something to think about....


RE: Lol
By transamdude95 on 9/28/2010 11:33:38 AM , Rating: 2
Quadrillity, do you not see evolution as fact?


RE: Lol
By lolmuly on 9/28/2010 5:39:02 PM , Rating: 2
dude..... SUPPOSING there was a "great flood"..... do you have any idea how long it takes water to wash away rock?

we have geological evidence that shows exactly (give or take some years) how long it took the grand canyon to form......

If water can wash away that much rock in just a few days, then how does florida still exist given it's battered by hurricanes every year? for that matter how do the various continents still exist, they would be completely turned to sand and resting at the bottom of the ocean in only a couple hundred years.

Do you have any comprehension of basic physics? I mean seriously, does electricity seem like magic to you?


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 5:58:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
do you have any idea how long it takes water to wash away rock?

You can't be serious?...
quote:
we have geological evidence that shows exactly (give or take some years) how long it took the grand canyon to form......

Evidence is subjective. People have different GUESSES as to how long it took; some being few days/hour even, and some millions of years. Let me ask you this question: Why do we find vertical petrified trees that span through several supposed "millions of years" old rock layers?

quote:
If water can wash away that much rock in just a few days, then how does florida still exist given it's battered by hurricanes every year? for that matter how do the various continents still exist, they would be completely turned to sand and resting at the bottom of the ocean in only a couple hundred years.

Oh here we go with the continental drift crap... sigh. Do you realize that underneath the ocean there is ..... land. Continents are nothing more than high spots where ocean are low spots.
quote:
Do you have any comprehension of basic physics? I mean seriously, does electricity seem like magic to you?

By your tone, I would conclude that you are probably a teenager. Quit with the childish behavior and form a decent response.


RE: Lol
By lolmuly on 9/28/2010 6:12:46 PM , Rating: 2
dude, that's my point, continents are high points, underneath the water is more land... but if what you say is true, the high points would erode away extremely fast.

Try this, put a bunch of sand in a bowl so it forms a mountain peak in the center, fill it with water until just the peak is above the water line. Then swirl the water around with your finger and watch how fast the whole thing disappears under the water...

Now try the same thing with a rock instead of sand.... it doesn't go under the water does it? BECAUSE ROCKS DON'T ERODE THAT FAST.

how could that much rock be eroded by that much water in a couple of days? if that WAS the case, why haven't our continents eroded that fast?

This is common sense stuff my friend, a 5 year old knows this.


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 6:56:11 PM , Rating: 2
That is quite possibly the most misguided and blind attempt at refuting my points. I live by a creek that sometimes floods. During hurricane Floyd, the entire road washed away in a matter of hours. You underestimate the erosive power of running water.

When I say, "the grand canyons was washed out by the receding waters of the great flood", what I fail to give you a picture of is: Imagine that half of the land mass of the US was still covered by water. This water was held back by a geographic damn. When the damn finally burst forth, the entire land mass which is now know as the grand canyon was formed.

I can't find the exact example that I am looking for right now, but just take the Niagara Falls for example. Look how much it has eroded in just a few years.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyBtnUZESk0


RE: Lol
By mcnabney on 9/29/2010 11:55:17 AM , Rating: 2
You are completely retarded.

40 days of rain isn't going to flood the world, even if the water was 'miracled-up'.
Even taking the world's greatest rainstorm and stretching it over 40 days isn't that extreme. That storm was 12" in 42 minutes, and if continued over 40 days would only provide about 1300' of water.

That particular biblical fairytale was stolen from other cultures and reflected a population's legitimate fear of flooding (see: annual Nile river flooding) and exagerating it to encompass the whole world. Strangely, the world is a pretty big place and even insane exagerations can't do that much damage.


RE: Lol
By LRonaldHubbs on 9/29/2010 11:07:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I live by a creek that sometimes floods. During hurricane Floyd, the entire road washed away in a matter of hours. You underestimate the erosive power of running water.

Did you really just compare a several-inch-thick layer of asphalt on top of a gravel bed to hundreds of feet of solid rock? LMAO.

You should go into geology and teach all those nuts a thing or two. Clearly they have it all wrong! /sarcasm


RE: Lol
By lolmuly on 9/28/2010 6:32:39 PM , Rating: 2
oh, and sorry i forgot to mention: They find those trees there because trees happen to grow on the side of rivers. Arizona is prone to flooding (trust me i live here), and when it floods a bunch of sediment washes down river and buries the tree. Then there's a drought and the sediment doesn't get washed away as the river digs deeper, so the buried tree petrifies over time kthx.


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 7:00:00 PM , Rating: 2
No. I mean literally trees are full sized (sometimes hundreds of feet) are found spanning SEVERAL rock layers that were supposed to be millions of years apart. In more simple terms, the geologic column was proved to be a total sham when the first tree was discovered that spanned multiple layers.


RE: Lol
By YashBudini on 9/28/2010 7:32:14 PM , Rating: 2
Cite your source.


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 8:48:32 PM , Rating: 2
http://amazingdiscoveries.org/AD-ChanceOrDesign-Fo...

Here is one. Do some research yourself and you will find accounts all over the world of petrified trees that are growing through strata previously believed to be "millions of years old".

http://www.prophecyandtruth.com/evolve2.htm
another interesting read.


RE: Lol
By tmradder on 9/29/2010 1:15:17 AM , Rating: 2
Old one...please find an example that wasn't refuted in the 19th century

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/polystrate/trees.h...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystrate_fossil


RE: Lol
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 9:37:33 AM , Rating: 2
The fact remains that petrified trees around found in the upright (and upside down) running through LAYERS THAT WERE SUPPOSED TO BE MILLIONS OF YEARS OLD.

It's all down to what you believe. Thousands of people have found these trees through layers that were supposed to be much much much older than was possible. You eye are wide open and you can't see the evidence in a different light because you are already too far skewed to hold on to that stupid theory.


RE: Lol
By transamdude95 on 9/29/2010 11:04:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
you can't see the evidence in a different light because you are already too far skewed to hold on to that stupid theory.


Pot call the kettle black lately?

Wake up, monkey.


RE: Lol
By tmradder on 9/29/2010 1:38:39 PM , Rating: 2
Please cite your references that the each layer was deposited millions of years apart from the other. Hopefully you should be able to find at least 10+ peer reviewed articles with proper dating techniques....otherwise I would need some sort of verification of your expertise in geology to be able to claim that each layer was deposited millions of years apart. Your previous links have no such support and baseless internet assertions do little to change opinions if that is your goal.


RE: Lol
By drycrust3 on 9/28/2010 11:29:34 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
In the scientific world, theory == fact


Am I right in thinking you mean "theory means fact"? If you do, then your science teachers should hang their heads in shame. A theory is almost identical to a hypothesis. The problem being that you have equated "theory" with fact because you believe the theory of Evolution is a fact.
Again, we have to listen to repeated assertions Evolution is a fact and there is no proof provided. Keep up the good work.


RE: Lol
By kd9280 on 9/28/2010 11:33:16 AM , Rating: 2
Do you subscribe to Intelligent Falling, or do you think that the Theory of Gravity is a fact?

What about germ theory ?
What about the wavelength theory of light?


RE: Lol
By Paj on 9/28/2010 12:48:07 PM , Rating: 2
A theory in the scientific sense loosely means an explanation that fits the observable facts. We have the theory of gravity, cell theory, heliocentric theory, theory of evolution.


RE: Lol
By drycrust3 on 9/28/2010 11:01:30 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, the problem I have is this person seems to suggest that an explanation that fits one set of data can be regarded as proven even though no proof has been provided. That is incorrect, a theory is not a law, where the explanation for that data has been proved.
In addition, even "the world is flat" is a theory, so theories cannot be accepted as fact simply because the level of proof required for a theory is almost nil, while that for a law is very high.


RE: Lol
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 11:16:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I agree, the problem I have is this person seems to suggest that an explanation that fits one set of data can be regarded as proven even though no proof has been provided. That is incorrect, a theory is not a law, where the explanation for that data has been proved. In addition, even "the world is flat" is a theory, so theories cannot be accepted as fact simply because the level of proof required for a theory is almost nil, while that for a law is very high.


That isn't what a theory is. "The world is flat" was a theory 1000 years ago, but was falsified by further evidence. A theory is a hypothesis that is supported by all observable and empirical evidence. Evolution will never become a law, it will always be a theory, just like Germ theory will always be a theory and never be a law, even though all evidence proves Germ theory beyond a reasonable doubt.


RE: Lol
By Fritzr on 9/28/2010 11:49:40 PM , Rating: 2
Actually disproven by the Greeks. They used observations of ships disapearing below the horizon and geometry to calculate the diameter of the Earth with fair accuracy. This geometric proof of a nonflat Earth is documented in surviving writings from the time of Aristotle.

Copernicus used similar methods to support his heliocentric theory. He of course was successfully prosecuted because the Church preached a Terracentric Truth.


RE: Lol
By Calindar on 9/29/2010 12:37:51 AM , Rating: 2
Yep. I know it was discovered far earlier than Columbus, but it didn't come to common undisputed knowledge to much after that. The church did it's best to keep that information suppressed in that time though.


RE: Lol
By raumkrieger on 9/28/2010 11:24:20 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
they show evidence against evolution

To the best of my knowledge this does not exist outside of fictional books.


RE: Lol
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/28/2010 11:46:35 AM , Rating: 1
evolution is happened around as you sit in your chair...


RE: Lol
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/28/2010 3:18:41 PM , Rating: 2
happening....


RE: Lol
By tng on 9/28/2010 7:02:05 PM , Rating: 2
Is that why my butt is going numb?


RE: Lol
By YashBudini on 9/28/2010 7:33:51 PM , Rating: 2
You to? I thought it was just me.

Thank God, no offense.


RE: Lol
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/29/2010 1:58:47 PM , Rating: 2
Yes it is, mine is numb too.


RE: Lol
By MozeeToby on 9/28/2010 11:54:30 AM , Rating: 1
I am perhaps willing to cede that Intelligent Design is a logical argument, rather than a purely religious belief. However, that doesn't make it a scientific argument since ID doesn't make any testable claims, and especially since it ignores evidence that weakens it considerably. ID supporters like to claim that things couldn't have happened by 'random chance' (I'll ignore that strawman for the purpose of this post). They look at the human eye and say that it is far too complex to have been created by evolution (at the surface, a logically sound position). I look at the human eye and say that it is far too flawed to have been created by a designer (again a logically sound position).

But, unlike the ID supporters, I have evidence that a better eye is possible; eagles and octopuses both have better designed eyes than humans do. And by better designed I don't just mean superior in function, but that the design itself is superior. I can also make a logical argument, based on visible evidence, that the flaws in a human eye are the result of it being produced by incremental changes rather than being designed whole cloth to it's present form. What's more, I can use those arguments as a starting point for research into how the eye (and other systems) work.

How does intelligent design explain the recurrent laryngeal nerve ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Recurrent_laryngeal_n... )? In humans this nerve takes a rather circuitous path from the brain, through the thorax, and back up to the neck (which is the only place that it actually has function). That might not seem so bad in humans, a detour of a few inches isn't going to make any difference right? Now look at giraffes, the nerve takes the same path in them as it does in us, the difference is that in a giraffe the detour is several meters long. At 25 m/s, it can take as long as 1/5th of a second for a nerve impulse to travel from the brain to a giraffe's larynx. If giraffes were designed it would be trivial to shorten that nerve and give it a direct path, reducing the risk of injury, weight, development cost, and impulse time. But, because giraffes were produced by evolution it can't happen, the nerve goes around the ligament that holds up the aorta, there's no gradual change path that allows the nerve to shorten.

The biological world is full of those kinds of examples, things that can be explained trivially with evolution that don't make any sense within the framework of ID (or any other theory of speciation for that matter). It happens at every level, physical morphology that only makes sense if you take into account gradual development, chemical pathways that take the long way around to produce the end product, genetic information that is shared between some species but not others... it all makes sense when you look at it through evolution. It's the most amazingly powerful and insightful theory of anything that humanity has every found, it has produced amazing insights into every biological system that we've ever researched, and half of us refuse to listen to it because they can't accept that humanity isn't special in quite the same way that they always thought it was. That is what makes those of use that support evolution frustrated.


RE: Lol
By transamdude95 on 9/28/2010 12:48:40 PM , Rating: 2
Good post and unfortunate you were rated down.

I'm sure someone who is wholly subscribed to a religion would state the laryngeal nerve in a giraffe was designed this way as a subtle test of faith... sigh


RE: Lol
By Mogounus on 9/28/2010 1:52:06 PM , Rating: 2
+1
How is it someone downrated you? Probably because you make too much sense. You put forth an argument that no one on their side has an answer to so you get downrated.


RE: Lol
By flatrock on 9/28/2010 2:27:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
However, that doesn't make it a scientific argument since ID doesn't make any testable claims...


The problem with that argument is neight does the Theory of Evoloution. That's why is remains a theory. There is no more of a way to difinitively prove the Theory of Evoloution to be true than there is Intelligent Design.

You can find lots of evidence that corresponds to it, but the same evidence corresponds with intelligent design. Any thing that appears to contradict either can be explained away.

quote:
But, unlike the ID supporters, I have evidence that a better eye is possible; eagles and octopuses both have better designed eyes than humans do. And by better designed I don't just mean superior in function, but that the design itself is superior. I can also make a logical argument, based on visible evidence, that the flaws in a human eye are the result of it being produced by incremental changes rather than being designed whole cloth to it's present form. What's more, I can use those arguments as a starting point for research into how the eye (and other systems) work.


Sorry but for your argument to be valid you would have to understand the entirity of "Intelligent Design" and be able to show that such variance does not fit within that design. It may not make sense to you simply because you don't understand the goals of the design. In other words Intelligent design is neither provable nor disprovable.

At the same time strict Evoloution is also vague and broad enough to explain away absolutely anything itself.

The biggest difference between Intelligent Design and Evolution, is that more people who believe in ID will admit that believing it requires a leap of faith to bridge what we know and what we cannot prove.

It could easily be said that the Theory of Evolution is an attempt by man to address their fear of what they do not understand. Of course science is how we attempt to explain the world around us, but any good scientist knows we only understand the world around us to a certain degree and things we have assumed to be fact have turned up false time and time again.

Argue all you like for Evolution, but since it cannot be proved or disproved you are basically arguing another form of theology rather than strict science.


RE: Lol
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 3:03:01 PM , Rating: 2
so, you don't understand/can't make sense of it, so it could not have been designed. You remind me of the argument that people make when they call out to God "If you are real, show yourself. Prove you exist and I'll believe" If the roles were reversed, and you are the Creator of the universe, and a man calls you out for his convenience, do you go running?


RE: Lol
By Mogounus on 9/28/2010 7:18:09 PM , Rating: 2
No wonder you can't accept Evolution. You are obviously not capable of reading comprehension much less taking one idea and extrapolating it through logic to apply to another.

He did not say he could not understand it/make sense of it. What he essentially said it that this example of the optical nerve being routed like this makes perfect sense when you consider how the giraffe’s neck evolved from being short to long but makes no sense if it was "designed" like that. I don't know about you but normal, logically thinking people usually reject things that don't make sense. Yet somehow the "creationist" community systematically rejects logic in favor of something abstract simply for the reason that they don't want to admit the logical conclusion of what is staring them in the face.


RE: Lol
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 8:26:14 PM , Rating: 2
I actually understood. You just couldn't see my point.
We armchair quarterback things, and in our hindsight we determine what would've been better, "If there was a God, he would've done it this way".

I say an evolved giraffe would have straightened out the problem.


Violence
By RugMuch on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Violence
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 12:06:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The "Good" Book is allowed to declare war in an very flat out way. I would like to resort to violence.

Based off of .....? Don't make claims that you cannot back up.


RE: Violence
By zippyzoo on 9/28/2010 12:32:36 PM , Rating: 5
HMMMMMMMMMM. Is this proof enough or you want more?

http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/Violence_and_God.htm

HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM


RE: Violence
By chagrinnin on 9/28/2010 1:10:18 PM , Rating: 2
That's some serious HMin' there dude. Careful you don't pull a HMin' muscle. :P


RE: Violence
By zippyzoo on 9/28/2010 1:15:14 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah you might affect your tonsils. lol


RE: Violence
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 2:01:44 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And it promises he will send to eternal torture all who do not accept Christianity.[13]

If God created us from dust, then he damn sure has the authority to do whatever he wants. I could spend eternity refuting and explaining in different lights what that entire article was about, but it comes down to reading the scriptures and interpreting them; NOT twisting them and using out of context clips to make it look like it's violent.


RE: Violence
By RugMuch on 9/28/2010 2:22:08 PM , Rating: 2
You are assuming a god exist for atheist, don't do that.

quote:
quote: And it promises he will send to eternal torture all who do not accept Christianity.[13]


Now, this is very threatening to us heathens, this is what the Crusades were all about. Like quotes from the "Good" Book cannot be interpreted any other way based on past experience of the dark ages. How is this different than a declaration of hate? Do you not understand religious wars?


RE: Violence
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 4:06:11 PM , Rating: 2
I love how people always jump to the crusades as some sort of "told you so" theme. The religious crusades always have one thing in common: They break their own laws by murdering.


RE: Violence
By Paj on 9/29/2010 8:38:13 AM , Rating: 2
I love how deeply religious people insist their holy text is the one true word of God in one breath, then say its open to interpretation in the next, then criticise those who have different interpretations in another. How can it be both absolute and relative?

You do realise the Bible is in itself an interpretation of earlier texts, which themselves are interpretations of even earlier texts, with all the lack of editorial integrity that implies?

How could an enlightened God make his subjects in his own image, then punish them for their moral failings? Does that imply God has moral failings? (seems likely if he has a hissy fit if people dont worship Him 'correctly').

Or could it be that we, as humans, have it all ass-backwards, and our ability to comprehend even the slightest shred of truth about the origins of the universe is still hopelessly inadequate, and will likely remain that way for thousands of years regardless of one's stance on science or theology?


RE: Violence
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 9:40:49 AM , Rating: 2
Our evolution into Gods is always only going to be a thousand years away huh? That's the problem here; you want to "be ye Gods". Keep living life like you/we will EVER be Gods, it will get you NOWHERE.

There is a God. He gives you a choice whether to worship him or not.


RE: Violence
By transamdude95 on 9/29/2010 11:06:40 AM , Rating: 2
god doesn't exist, monkey.


RE: Violence
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/29/2010 3:29:30 PM , Rating: 2
Because a BOOK written by HUMANS tell you there is a god? Get real....


RE: Violence
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 3:44:11 PM , Rating: 2
Are you just going to keep repeating the same sentence over and over again until someone believes you? This is probably the 6th time you have said that.


RE: Violence
By transamdude95 on 9/29/2010 4:21:18 PM , Rating: 2
Same thing you are doing, monkey.


RE: Violence
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/29/2010 4:57:37 PM , Rating: 1
Just about as much as you keep spouting the same shit over....the bible is a story, written by man, end of story. believe what you will.


RE: Violence
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/30/2010 4:25:07 PM , Rating: 2
Believe me? Millions of people are of the same mind set so I don't need to try to convince anyone.


RE: Violence
By Ralos on 9/28/2010 6:42:21 PM , Rating: 2
Curious about that 5 for an "empty" comment containing just Hummmms and a link, I went to have a look at it, was shocked, and then saw your reply

quote:
If God created us from dust, then he damn sure has the authority to do whatever he wants


Then let him do it. Don't say that another human being violent with another one is actually God's action. Did he send some Bob to create us from dust? No, he did it personnaly you say, then why not the same for the rest? Your scriptures do not say that he did the violent deeds descripted in the articles, but that other men did it in his name.

You're basically saying that anything anyone would do would be damn sure correct if he insist it's God's will.

quote:
but it comes down to reading the scriptures and interpreting them;


Yep, and that's exactly what that article was about.

quote:
NOT twisting them


? Where do you see any twisting? I couldn't believe the article until I went and cross checked many of the references. That guy's examples are not twisted in any way, they're pretty much verbatim from the scriptures.

and I also checked before and after the quotes, specifically not to be caught with an out of context reference and once again, they are dead on right and to the point. Most of them don't leave a lot of room for alternative context anyway, they're pretty much radical and clear cut as to be impossible to interpret any other way.


RE: Violence
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 8:20:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
? Where do you see any twisting? I couldn't believe the article until I went and cross checked many of the references. That guy's examples are not twisted in any way, they're pretty much verbatim from the scriptures. and I also checked before and after the quotes, specifically not to be caught with an out of context reference and once again, they are dead on right and to the point. Most of them don't leave a lot of room for alternative context anyway, they're pretty much radical and clear cut as to be impossible to interpret any other way.

I wish the internet wasn't such a horrible means of communication. Face it, we simply cannot express our full meaning over this forum. And for that reason, I can't remember if I said this or not, But I do not have all the time in the world to pick line by line in that link that he posted.

There are several examples of where God demonstrated his wrath and judgment on his creation in the Bible. Does this mean that a man can blow up a building and say, "god told me to". No. That's why we have accounts of events in the bible.

The religion you are looking for is Islam. Ya know, where Muslims are COMMANDED to behead non-believers. Show me where in the Christian Bible you find ANY of that crap.


RE: Violence
By Fritzr on 9/28/2010 11:42:21 PM , Rating: 3
Joshua at Jericho?

The Isrealites crossing the Jordan?

Just a couple.

Have you ever actually read the Bible as opposed to reading selections picked out for study.

One of my favorite bits is in Genesis. In summary
God Creates 2 humans (all others are their descendants)
Adam and Eve have 3 children, one dies.
The two surviving sons visit a neighboring kingdom and return with wives.
Adam and Eve then go on to produce additional children

Since Adam, Eve and the two surviving sons were the only humans on Earth ... which planet did Seth & Cain visit to find wives?

I'm assuming here that the word translated "Kingdom" could refer to anything from the farm next door to a neighboring universe, as long as there were 2 women available for Cain & Seth to bring home to Mom & Dad.

But since God created only Adam and Eve & there were only 2 surviving children at the time, who did the 2 sons marry????

Has this riddle ever been answered?


RE: Violence
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 9:55:54 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Since Adam, Eve and the two surviving sons were the only humans on Earth ... which planet did Seth & Cain visit to find wives?


Cain was married before he went to the land of Nod. He didn't find a wife there, but “knew” (had sexual relations with) his wife.[14]

all from http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c004.htm...

There ARE explanations out there, so stop trying to mislead others that there are lies/errors in the Bible. Do you think the Bible is a book that you can read with ill intent/out of context/not in full and expect to receive THE MESSAGE? No. You read with a negative agenda, therefor you willingly miss the opportunity to read it for what its meant to be.


RE: Violence
By transamdude95 on 9/29/2010 11:10:33 AM , Rating: 2
the bible is a collection of 'stories' (read fiction) that are meant to teach lessons/morals. Your bible also promotes slavery. You are a silly monkey to believe this work of fiction as if it were factual!


RE: Violence
By Nightraptor on 9/28/2010 2:06:38 PM , Rating: 2
Basic question - absent a God of some sort how can you claim that violence, torture, infanticide, etc. etc. are OBJECTIVELY wrong? I mean sure you can say they are subjectively wrong according the your personal experience or even the majority view of the culture in which you live. Yet you can't claim on an objective basis that pedophiles (which have been accepted at various cultures at various points throughout history) are any more immoral then the guy who cut you off in traffic the other day. Absent an objective source for moral values objective moral values cannot exist, only subjective ones.


RE: Violence
By m1ldslide1 on 9/28/2010 2:25:08 PM , Rating: 2
Nightraptor - yours is a common assertion that morality can only be derived from a higher code derived from God. I disagree totally - the "ten commandment" style laws permeate every organized society, even when these societies have had no direct contact because of geographical barriers. Leaping to the conclusion that this is the influence of "God" is spurious. Instead a more reasonable correlation would be that humans are herd animals and as such require empathy to thrive. Given larger herds (aka cities) we require strict laws in order to construct societies that don't disintegrate in anarchy. These "morals" are both necessitated by and derived from our evolved nature, not the invisible hand of God.


RE: Violence
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 2:46:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
These "morals" are both necessitated by and derived from our evolved nature, not the invisible hand of God.

And I say that we are born with that knowledge and more as part of our creation by God. We have an inherent knowledge of him, which is why when you choose not to believe you are held accountable.


RE: Violence
By eggman on 9/28/2010 4:24:27 PM , Rating: 2
Do you mean God has a sex?


RE: Violence
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 3:05:32 AM , Rating: 2
You are actually correct. Humans are born with certain behaviors preprogrammed. These are known as instinctive behaviors.

Evolution builds in instincts by the simple method of Natural Selection.

If an individual is unable to reproduce, then that lineage is eliminated.
If an individual has a tendency to kill neighbors, then that lineage will eliminate those who are weaker.
If an individual has a tendency to kill it's own family members, then that lineage will be weakened.
If an individual has a tendency to assist neighbors in a manner that helps the individual's relatives, that lineage will grow stronger.

As you can see evolution 'sees' murder of family as bad & murder of encroaching strangers as 'good'. Also 'good' is murder of populations using resources that can be used to make the murderer more 'successful'. Also 'good' is cooperation for the benefit of the group and being kind to family so that they are more likely to help in times of need. The Bible is full of examples of these kinds of behavior. It in fact documents the instincts that evolution considers 'good' and 'bad' :P

There are some testable ideas in the Bible, at least where it documents the results of early 'researchers' in applied psychology :)

Morality is defined by increased survival.
A moral code that reduces survival tends to die.
This is likely the reason the Great Religions are similar in their rules. They are documenting our instincts. The followers of religious leaders who got it wrong did not do as well on their survival exams.


RE: Violence
By Nightraptor on 9/28/2010 2:57:54 PM , Rating: 2
Mildslide,

You're post assumes a priori that laws which create order are preferable to anarchy. It would appear that most anarchists believe the opposite of this. On what objective basis can you claim that your morals are superior to theirs? On what basis is order preferable to chaos, survival preferable to extinction, living preferable to dying??


Response
By wgbutler on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Response
By wgbutler on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: Response
By wgbutler on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
And the correct answer is...
By chunkymonster on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: And the correct answer is...
By Motoman on 9/28/2010 11:03:11 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Evolution is a THEORY


Thank you, Ronald Reagan. For once again intentionally misrepresenting the term "theory" as it is use in science. Scientifically speaking, a "theory" is the most well-supported idea there is...several notches up from conjectures and hypothesis. Only after intense research and study of all available evidence can an idea be considered a theory - and there is no theory ever made that has such a plethora of supporting evidence as the theory of Evolution.

There is no higher rung on the scientific ladder.

Science is right, because it has voluminous proof to substantiate it's theories. Religion has nothing. Not a single testable piece of evidence. And there's plenty of easily observable reasons why only the most weak-minded people would adhere to religion...such as the problem of evil. "God" says he opposes evil. He also says that he is omnipotent. Yet evil exists...therefore, there are 3 possibilities...either God is lying about opposing evil, because he wishes it to continue to exist (in an universe governed by an omnipotent God, all things exist only because it is his will), or God is lying about being omnipotent, and actually can't do anything about evil...or God doesn't exist, and in fact is just another in a long line of made-up deities that man creates to fabricate easy answers to hard questions.

When your death comes, atheists/agnostics will die having lived a full life, having made the most of every moment knowing that that is all they get. Religious people will die having wasted large amounts of their short existence believing in, practicing, and promoting a lie - life is too short to live a lie.

And do we really think that God would want only people stupid enough to believe ridiculous claims without proof in his "kingdom?" Or would he prefer to hang out with people bright enough to actually think things through, rather than just accept wildly unprovable claims from self-appointed persons of authority?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By straycat74 on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: And the correct answer is...
By raumkrieger on 9/28/2010 11:31:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
God is a large part of the creation of this country.

This country was started by religious prudes so uptight that the British threw them out (I forget which comedian said that, but it's true).

This does not makes us a religious country. Many of the founding fathers might have been religious, we do not know for sure. But religion didn't factor in to the starting of this country. If it would have we wouldn't have gone to war against the British in the first place, as revolting against your government is decidedly against at least one commandment.

You're free to believe whatever you want, but please do not spread false rumors.


By chunkymonster on 9/28/2010 12:18:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
God is a large part of the creation of this country.
Agreed! As suggested by Tocqueville in his book Democracy in America, " Puritanism was the very thing that provided a firm foundation for American democracy."

quote:
This country was started by religious prudes so uptight that the British threw them out (I forget which comedian said that, but it's true.
I believe it was George Carlin, RIP George! And WRONG, the Puritans were not kicked out of England, they left because they did not believe the Reformation went far enough to truly change the Church as well as getting out England before being persecuted. Learn some early American history.

quote:
Many of the founding fathers might have been religious, we do not know for sure.
WRONG! The Founding Fathers faith and belief in God is well documented, learn some early American history.

quote:
But religion didn't factor in to the starting of this country.
WRONG! As you pointed out, the Puritans left England for religious freedom. Again learn early American history!

quote:
If it would have we wouldn't have gone to war against the British in the first place, as revolting against your government is decidedly against at least one commandment.
Please tell me which of the Ten Commandments or any of the Commandments in the New Testament state that revolting against the government is breaking God's law. Seriously, quote the verses, please! I think you should also include reading the Bible along with early American history.

quote:
You're free to believe whatever you want, but please do not spread false rumors
Well, aren't you the pot calling the kettle black! FAIL!


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Motoman on 9/28/2010 11:35:13 AM , Rating: 5
Like any rational person, I "answer" to those around me whom I affect, aka society.

If you want hate, go to church. Every religion hates those who aren't part of their religion...religion is essentially the sociological sink for hatred (in the way that prairie dogs are the biological sink for the plague). There is no chance there will be peace in this world so long as there is religion.

Children get to believe in fairy tales - but you know what? Eventually they grow up and realize that no, Virginia, there really isn't a Santa Claus. With any luck, you too will grow up some day and make that realization.

You accuse me of "denying" his existence. Every atheist/agnostic on the planet will accept his existence upon being shown proof of said existence. There is none.

Also, it's fun to point out that the most religiously-bent people are the ones who understand the least about it...generally speaking, that's because if you do actually think about it, you realize it's all BS.

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/28/dont-know...

For the record, I was raised protestant, went to church camp every summer for about ten years in a row, and even helped to build the church that my family went to. Then I grew up, got an education, and thought critically about religion - and realized it's a crock of $h1t. And, as is noted in the link above, as an agnostic/atheist (take your pick of label...don't care), I almost certainly am more acquainted with the tenets of religion than you are.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By chunkymonster on 9/28/10, Rating: 0
RE: And the correct answer is...
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/28/2010 2:27:06 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, but there is no proof of "god" and until there is....which will be...never...then the rest of will apologize and say we are sorry.

The bible is not proof. It was a BOOK written by a HUMAN.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By tng on 9/28/2010 3:00:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
there is no proof of "god"

No there is not, but proof would violate a basic tenant, Faith. So it could be argued that religion not only does not need proof of God, but does not want it either.....

quote:
It was a BOOK written by a HUMAN


Actually quite a few people...


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Cheesew1z69 on 9/28/2010 3:16:14 PM , Rating: 2
And STILL a book written by HUMANS.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By tng on 9/28/2010 3:40:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And STILL a book written by HUMANS.
Didn't say otherwise, just wanted to point out what I constantly find ironic about a belief in God (Yes it has to be the capitol G)since proof would destroy the basic fundamental foundation of religion.


By Cheesew1z69 on 9/28/2010 3:52:21 PM , Rating: 2
That it would.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By YashBudini on 9/28/2010 7:22:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And STILL a book written by HUMANS.

And by definition, prone to making mistakes.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 8:10:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
No there is not, but proof would violate a basic tenant, Faith. So it could be argued that religion not only does not need proof of God, but does not want it either.....

I find rationalizations like that to be very... convenient. It is just too convenient to have all of these "cover stories" to account for the questions that undoubtedly were raised against following such beliefs. The idea that something that has no proof of it's existence requires there be no proof seems more like a convenient cover story to account for questions raised about why there was no proof.

There are a lot of examples of this in religion. Explanations of convenience to overcome obvious weaknesses.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 8:25:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
There are a lot of examples of this in religion. Explanations of convenience to overcome obvious weaknesses.

And you don't see this occur within the theory of evolution? LOL, Double standard much?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 12:05:50 AM , Rating: 2
Actually working theories of abiogenesis and evolution would support your position.

By successfully falsifying these theories you will have provided proof of God's existence. By your own arguments this will prove the non-existence of God :P

Now that we have shown that Divine Creation as a proven fact denies the existence of a God that requires followers rely solely on Faith ... what is next since the God whose existence has just been disproven by the existence of that God's Creation is required to create the Creation that has just disproved his existence.

A marvelously twisted sentence but I think it is clear that by your arguement, proving Divine Creation disproves the Divine Creator :P


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Quadrillity on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: And the correct answer is...
By kd9280 on 9/28/2010 11:40:52 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Btw, I can hypothesis that God does exists, and that the Bible has substantial proof for it also.


And it would be circular proof. I have hypothesize that Hogwart's is a real place, and that the Harry Potter books have substantial proof for it. If the only proof for something is in the same thing that first explains that, it's circular reasoning and illogical.

I'm not able to sufficiently answer your arguments in the middle part of your post, as I am not a geologist, but I'm sure there are geologists who can sufficiently answer those.

quote:
LOL. Atheists are always trying so hard to prove to everyone that they are moral people. Not that all religion people are moral, but at least we admit that we derive our moral values from the rules of a higher power. The morals values of an atheist just appear out of thin air/whatever they feel like doing that day.


My morals are dictated by a common interest in goodwill and helping my fellow man. If I do something that hurts someone, it's evil. If I do something that helps someone, it's good. Yes, morals are subjective and relative to society. What was considered acceptable some years ago is not acceptable now. Society found segregation of race to be acceptable. It is no longer acceptable.

quote:
I feel like *insert illegal/atrocious act* today; since I am an atheist, I feel not obligation to feel bad about it because I am living my life exactly how I want to. Besides, you can't live life to it's fullest without doing ANYTHING and EVERYTHING you want right?


This is completely wrong and vile. Are you honestly saying that your morals only exist because you believe in some higher power?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Motoman on 9/28/2010 11:50:30 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
This is completely wrong and vile. Are you honestly saying that your morals only exist because you believe in some higher power?


Yes. Because the Bible says "Love comes from God, and without God there is no love." That's how stupid people justify calling athiests/agnostics, or people of other religions, amoral and/or inethical.

Stupid is as stupid does. Just leave him there on the bench with his box of chocolates...


RE: And the correct answer is...
By tng on 9/28/2010 6:17:06 PM , Rating: 1
Has anyone here looked at the Bible for what it really is? Once you get past all of the God stuff that is being argued here, what the Bible gives us is a guide for living within a civilized framework.

I do have an atheist friend that has read the Bible cover to cover and came to that conclusion. While people who have not read it will trivialize it, there is allot of it that would help with today's issues.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 8:27:32 PM , Rating: 2
Like... Love thine enemy. Love thy neighbor....thousands of examples. People are going to scoff at the Bible no matter what; but it's a fight that I will never give up on!


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 9:47:29 PM , Rating: 3
Like...

You must marry a girl after you rape her http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuter...

It is ok to buy slaves as long as they are foreign.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviti...

Don't forget to kill those witches
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Exodus...

I would hate to see what this world would look like without the beacon of moral guidelines that the Bible provides...


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 11:21:11 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
"If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated (anah) her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives." Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NIV

There are two points to note here. First, even though the verse may seem to be instructing the rapist to marry the victim the passage nowhere sanctions, condones or even approves of rape. This is simply a gross misreading of the text. The injunction is intended to instruct the Israelites on how to deal with and address a rape situation if and when it occurs.

from http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ot_and_rape...

You pull things out of context so much that it's not even close to funny or cute. You can read the Bible with ill intent to your hearts desire, but you will never RECEIVE THE MESSAGE that is intended for you unless you let go of this agenda to destroy faith. Open your heart man, God wants you to love, not hate.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Calindar on 9/29/2010 12:54:43 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You pull things out of context so much that it's not even close to funny or cute.

The explanation you provide re-affirms my claim. How is that pulling it out of context? The Bible says you must marry a girl if you rape her, and of course pay her father some silver. That is the message and the context. The Bible is full of vile, evil things and messages(The idea of Hell, and that anyone who doesn't believe the same thing you do deserves an eternity of torture and suffering, is one of the most evil mindsets I have ever come across). Many of these messages, like the ones I listed, the religious like to ignore, and make it out as if the Bible is some divine source of morality. You can't have it both ways. Either you believe the Bible is a divine source of morality and that the things I referenced that are in the Bible are indeed moral, or you don't.

quote:
Open your heart man, God wants you to love, not hate.

The only things I dislike(not hate) are willful ignorance, and people attempting to impede our advancement as a society by clinging to outdated bronze age superstitions. I do not hate these people and I do not wish harm on them. But I am free to dislike their actions. For the most part, if the religious kept their beliefs, their values, and their ideals to themselves, I would have no problem with someone believing in whatever mystical deity they want. I do have a problem when people try to restrict and slow down our scientific advancements because those advancements are contradicting their religious beliefs.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By tng on 9/29/2010 3:50:46 PM , Rating: 2
You guys are killing me!

I don't think that the term "Rape" is the same here as it was when this was written. When this was written, any sex outside of marriage was considered "Rape" if the woman was a virgin, even if it was she that initiated it sex.

This is akin to a couple of teenagers sneaking off behind the shed and getting caught by her parents then being told that they would have to get married.

Context pertaining to when this was written is important....

Again I think that this illustrates that they Bible can be used as a rule book for a civilized society within reason.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 4:08:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This is akin to a couple of teenagers sneaking off behind the shed and getting caught by her parents then being told that they would have to get married.

That is EXACTLY what it means. Its a shame that people will twist distort the word of God.
quote:
Context pertaining to when this was written is important....

They absolutely refuse to do this.


By LRonaldHubbs on 9/29/2010 11:38:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That is EXACTLY what it means. Its a shame that people will twist distort the word of God.

No it isn't. You're ignoring what is written and substituting what you want it to mean. Who are you to revise the word of the Lord?!


By LRonaldHubbs on 9/29/2010 11:33:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't think that the term "Rape" is the same here as it was when this was written. When this was written, any sex outside of marriage was considered "Rape" if the woman was a virgin, even if it was she that initiated it sex.

http://www.thebricktestament.com/the_law/rape/dt22...


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Motoman on 9/28/2010 11:48:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So ... right off the bat you point out to everyone that YOU don't understand the difference between FACTS and INTERPRETATIONS of the facts.


2+2=4. That's not an interpretation. The only thing that needs "interpretation" is subjective stuff like, say, holy books. Because there can be no objective analysis of that which, in and of itself, is purely subjective already.

quote:
Btw, I can hypothesis that God does exists, and that the Bible has substantial proof for it also.


No it doesn't. Not in the slightest. Not one bit of evidence, anywhwere.

At any rate, Black Knight, I am no longer going to discuss this with you. You don't get to keep declaring that "it's just a flesh wound" - every time religion tries to argue with science, religion loses. Always. And, like the Black Knight, religion simply declares victory anyway, as it lies there on the ground bleeding to death with all four limbs hacked off - because, like you, religion is irrevocably irrational and disconnected from reality.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 8:32:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
2+2=4. That's not an interpretation.

You blatantly sidestep the points in my post and resort to changing the subject to math equations? You're right, you do win sir; congratulations!
quote:
No it doesn't. Not in the slightest. Not one bit of evidence, anywhwere.

Prove it. Prove the non-existence of evidence. You can't, because evidence is YOUR PERSONAL INTERPRETATION OF OBSERVATIONS.

Your long winded and hateful rant added absolutely nothing to the going discussion, therefore it will be dismissed as childish banter. Rebut the point of my arguments (using our nifty quote button) and I will reply back. That's how a debate works.

You seem to think there will be winners and losers to this discussion; Very juvenile of you.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 2:16:29 AM , Rating: 2
I'll add a serious response for a change.

You state the Bible is proof of God
You state that your belief in God proves the truth of the Bible

I now present you with a simple version of your challenge
Instead of requiring you to justify every statement in that book, I only ask you to present at a minimum a verifiable proof of either the existence of God or verifiable proof that the book was either written by, or dictated by God.

Much simpler than your requirement that each person responding be fully cognizant of every scientific theory and of which have been tested and which are still awaiting verification.

Your answer please
...the task is so ridiculously simple, one verifiable fact.

Note: Your Faith is not an acceptable exhibit as I can also find equally devoted religious believers who will say that your beliefs do not agree with their own and therefore your Faith is false. That you will say the same about their Faith does not falsify their beliefs.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Shuxclams on 9/28/2010 11:40:53 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
""God" says he opposes evil. He also says that he is omnipotent. Yet evil exists...therefore, there are 3 possibilities...either God is lying about opposing evil, because he wishes it to continue to exist (in an universe governed by an omnipotent God, all things exist only because it is his will), or God is lying about being omnipotent, and actually can't do anything about evil...or God doesn't exist, and in fact is just another in a long line of made-up deities that man creates to fabricate easy answers to hard questions."


Sounds like Divine Command Theory.

Freethinking takes a lot of work and education, blind faith takes... well very little of either. What is easier?

SHUX


RE: And the correct answer is...
By chunkymonster on 9/28/2010 11:52:54 AM , Rating: 1
Your anger and skepticism prevents you from making anything but a biased rant to prove that you are right and everyone else is wrong. Your hate for God and notion that people who believe in God are "weak-minded" completely contradicts the MILLIONS of faithful throughout the world. Maybe, someday, all those weak-minded believers will be as brilliant and grounded in reality as you.

From your rant, it is evident that you have no faith, I just hope that you at least believe in something larger than yourself and what science can prove.

Lastly, don't be so presumptuous to "ass-u-me" that "Religious people will die having wasted large amounts of their short existence believing in, practicing, and promoting a lie" as I doubt that you have met and evaluated the life and happiness of the MILLIONS of faithful throughout the world to make such a statement.

Any yes, evolution is a THEORY. In the words of Steven Hawking...
quote:
"Any physical theory is always provisional, in the sense that it is only a hypothesis; you can never prove it. No matter how many times the results of experiments agree with some theory, you can never be sure that the next time the result will not contradict the theory. On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory."


As I stated in my previous post, "Fact and bottom line is that there is not enough evidence to support or disprove either evolution or creation. No side is right and no side is wrong."


RE: And the correct answer is...
By bhieb on 9/28/2010 12:35:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory.
Good quote but you must have missed the last part. Hawking's quote specifically says that if you can disprove just 1 thing then the theory is bogus.

To use another poster's excellent example. If God is all powerful and infallible (aka cannot be wrong). And if God hates evil (thall shalt not kill). Then if any evil act ever happened in the history of man (any man died at the hand of another man), then God would be either a liar (as evil exists because of his inaction), or he not all powerful (he cannot stop it).

So to use your own quote, since evil does indeed happen 1 aspect of your theory has been debunked, and as such it is disproved.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/10, Rating: 0
RE: And the correct answer is...
By eskimospy on 9/28/2010 1:18:41 PM , Rating: 2
The actual quote is by Epicurus and it goes something like this:

Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot; or he can and does not want to.
If he wants to, but cannot, he is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.

It's not an argument that god is a liar or even about free will, it's that either god isn't as powerful as we think he is or it's that his choice to create a world with evil in it and allow his creations to be so afflicted is an evil act itself.


By PresidentThomasJefferson on 9/28/2010 7:59:44 PM , Rating: 2
There's more than enough proof :

Here's irrefutable proof of evolution video by a PhD biologist using DNA evidence, retroviral DNA etc citing work of Brown University biologist Ken Miller --more solid than DNA proof that convicts people in court

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1fGkFuHIu0 -quick 10 minute video, latest DNA proofs that creationists can't refute

2) The 'humans must be recent or else they'll be 50 billion people long ago' is false because it shows creationists are simpletons w/ no understanding of ecology/biology.. what limits population growth/size is FOOD & WATER OF THE LOCAL REGION/ECOLOGY --that's why there's not 1 BILLION desert snakes in the desert.. a population maximum size is limited NOT BY AREA BUT BY HOW MUCH FOOD(PREY ANIMALS & EDIBLE PLANTS) in the region.. as well as local diseases...

Famines killing millions were frequent & common throughout most of human history(Irish potato famine was just a small one) as well as plagues (killed 33% of Europe)..and before the 20th century of modern medicine, 20% of women died in childbirth

Hell, it was predicted decades ago that there would be world food shortages/famines but it was averted because crop yields were increased 20-50x(depending on species) by FDR-trained Nobel Prize winner Norman Borlaug, who's gov research created the "Green Revolution" that multiplied food production.

3) There's been plenty of new species that's arisen (a species is any population that can't or doens't interbreed with another population, usually because DNA has changed too much)'http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.htm...



RE: And the correct answer is...
By chunkymonster on 9/28/2010 12:55:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
quote:
On the other hand, you can disprove a theory by finding even a single observation that disagrees with the predictions of the theory.
Good quote but you must have missed the last part. Hawking's quote specifically says that if you can disprove just 1 thing then the theory is bogus. To use another poster's excellent example. If God is all powerful and infallible (aka cannot be wrong). And if God hates evil (thall shalt not kill). Then if any evil act ever happened in the history of man (any man died at the hand of another man), then God would be either a liar (as evil exists because of his inaction), or he not all powerful (he cannot stop it). So to use your own quote, since evil does indeed happen 1 aspect of your theory has been debunked, and as such it is disproved.
No arguments from me...that it why I stated and believe what I wrote in my original post which is...

"Fact and bottom line is that there is not enough evidence to support or disprove either evolution or creation. No side is right and no side is wrong."

I certainly am not smart enough to prove or disprove Evolution or Creation and neither is anyone else stating their case in this thread, which is why I also wrote in my original post...

"The irony is that if the pure Evolutionists are wrong, and God did in fact create Man, then the Evolutionists are all damned to spend eternity in Hell; whereas if the Creationists are wrong and life is truly random selection, then all the Creationists stand to lose is the time they spent defending creation. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of caution..."

Que cera cera...


RE: And the correct answer is...
By eskimospy on 9/28/2010 1:24:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
"Fact and bottom line is that there is not enough evidence to support or disprove either evolution or creation. No side is right and no side is wrong." I certainly am not smart enough to prove or disprove Evolution or Creation and neither is anyone else stating their case in this thread, which is why I also wrote in my original post... "The irony is that if the pure Evolutionists are wrong, and God did in fact create Man, then the Evolutionists are all damned to spend eternity in Hell; whereas if the Creationists are wrong and life is truly random selection, then all the Creationists stand to lose is the time they spent defending creation. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of caution..."


That's just an appeal to false equivalence. Evolution has vastly more evidence to support it than creationism, therefore to draw such equality between them is dishonest.

That, and Pascal's wager is one of the dumbest theorems ever put forth by a human being. You can't force yourself to believe something. (do you think if you concentrated hard enough you could believe apples fall up?) Even if that were the case, the idea that god would accept someone into heaven because they made a calculated wager goes against the principles of Christian faith, and if god's really like that then he's a horrible person.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/28/2010 1:33:07 PM , Rating: 2
I have to ask, why do you spend so much time railing against something that you don't believe in?

For comparison, I don't believe in Buddhism. Yet I do not spend countless hours hanging around on websites trashing Buddhism. I simply dismiss it and spend no time whatsoever thinking about it. Nor do I believe that the U.S. government was behind the 9/11 attacks. I see people who believe that as lunatics and don't waste any time conversing with them.

So why do you spend so much time shaking your fists at the imaginary God? What is it about the concept that evokes such a strong emotional reaction in you? And do you have have this same exact emotional reaction towards Hindus or native Americans who believe in a Great Spirit?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By eskimospy on 9/28/2010 1:49:04 PM , Rating: 2
I don't care about god one bit until it starts negatively affecting my life. Buddhists and Hindus do not negatively affect my life. Certain segments of Christianity and evolution deniers in particular consciously and consistently attempt to alter our society in ways that I find highly negative.

They have been the source of anti-sodomy laws, the denial of gay marriage, of prohibition, the push to make abortion illegal, and in this case the push to indoctrinate my children with anti-science fiction that will put them at a manifest disadvantage if they ever attempt to pursue a career in biological science. (as they won't understand how it works.)

Trust me, I wish I didn't have to care, but American Christians force me to. The day that creationists and other fundamentalist Christians stop trying to force their religion on me and people I care about is the day I never give you a second thought. Sound like a deal?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/28/2010 2:01:50 PM , Rating: 2
So you are ok with Christians as long as they are not proclaiming their beliefs? This is interesting for a couple of reasons.

1) What a weird coincidence that this attitude seems to be so prevalent throughout history and around the world! For example, the governments of Saudi Arabia, Iran, and North Korea all feel the same exact way. (And those places are hellholes to live in, btw). What is it about Christianity that is so threatening to people?

2) As far as I know, you can be a sodomite or kill an unborn human being (excuse me, have an abortion) legally in this country. So one one is stopping you from doing those things. (Roe vs Wade, btw, completely circumvented the democratic process that our country was founded upon).

What about child prostitution? If the Christians were fighting that because of their religious beliefs would you be for it or against it?

3) As far as I know, people are trying to modify our culture from other religious viewpoints as well. Islam, atheism, kwanzaa, etc. Is it wrong for these folks express their opinions at the ballot box, or do you only have a problems with Christians doing it?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By eskimospy on 9/28/2010 4:57:20 PM , Rating: 2
I said nothing about objecting to religious people proclaiming their beliefs. In fact if you took the time to actually read my post you would see that I said the exact opposite of that.

1.) It's very telling that you are unable to see that the governments of Iran and Saudi Arabia have done the exact same thing that religious extremists in America have attempted to do, just more successfully. Once again, if you had taken the time to read my post you would have clearly seen that I have no problem with Christianity in particular, but any religion that is attempting to force its beliefs on me through law. Christianity just happens to be the one that does it in the US.

2.) You can only commit sodomy legally in the entire United States since 2003 (Lawrence v. Texas), along with legally slaughter the helpless unborn only since the 70's. For years and years prior to this Christians used the force of law to assault gay people. I won't address your scholarly legal analysis.

Some Christian beliefs coincide with widely accepted social norms and the requirements for civilized society. Christian theology preaches against murder, but rational people are against murder without the need for any commandments. I would welcome Christian aid in eliminating child prostitution, but I would not welcome laws that outlawed it because of religious prohibitions against it.

3.) Yes, as I clearly stated before I am hostile to any religion trying to force their views on me. (I won't even get into your attempt to equate atheism with religion. [especially when its definition means without theism]. Oh, and Kwanzaa is not a religion.

It should be obvious to you that I don't think people expressing their views at the ballot box is wrong. It is the act of attempting to force people who do not share their beliefs to abide by them that is wrong. It doesn't matter who does it, the US is simply far more full of Christians than Muslims.

I imagine you would view Muslims attempting to implement Sharia law in the US as a terrible affront, and rightfully so. America has a proud tradition of holding our religious fanatics at bay, and I hope to see it continue.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/28/2010 5:35:09 PM , Rating: 2
eskimospy,

Well thank you for your thoughtful reply! I'll respond to each of your points:

quote:

I have no problem with Christianity in particular, but any religion that is attempting to force its beliefs on me through law. Christianity just happens to be the one that does it in the US.


I would disagree that Christianity is enforced through law in this country. This country was founded on the principle that the state shall establish no official religion and that everyone is free to worship (or not worship) as they choose.

I am not aware of any laws in the country that enforce Christianity. The closest examples I could think would be the "don't sell beer on Sunday" laws that have existed in some regions. But even that is not an enforcement of Christianity, per se, merely a law that closely reflects Christian values.

If there WERE such a law that mandated that someone become a Christian, or forbid the practice of any other belief system, I would completely be with you in opposing such a law.

quote:

You can only commit sodomy legally in the entire United States since 2003 (Lawrence v. Texas), along with legally slaughter the helpless unborn only since the 70's. For years and years prior to this Christians used the force of law to assault gay people.


A society has the right to define which behavioral standards it will tolerate. To throw all of this out the window because many of these standards mirror religious standards would be to invite chaos and anarchy.

What about laws forbidding polygamy? Beastiality? Prostitution? What about laws making it illegal for a 50 year old man to have sex with a 17 year old teenager? Should any of these laws be invalidated because they might be inspired by religious beliefs?

And why should a law inspired by an atheistic worldview be more valuable than a law inspired by a theistic worldview? Doesn't my vote count just as much as yours?

And some sexual behaviors are healthier than others. It's interesting that only in the last part of the 20th century (coinciding with the cultural acceptance of homosexuality) have we seen an explosion of the AIDS epidemic in the United States. Millions of people have died because we wanted to be "tolerant" of other lifestyles. Was it a good tradeoff? I'm not so sure.

quote:

Some Christian beliefs coincide with widely accepted social norms and the requirements for civilized society. Christian theology preaches against murder, but rational people are against murder without the need for any commandments. I would welcome Christian aid in eliminating child prostitution, but I would not welcome laws that outlawed it because of religious prohibitions against it.


Be careful in using "civilized society" as your standard for what is proper and what is not proper. One could make a case that Nazi Germany was a "civilized society" and yet they murdered millions of Jews. There are "civilized societies" in Asia that turn a blind eye to child prostitution.

quote:

Yes, as I clearly stated before I am hostile to any religion trying to force their views on me. (I won't even get into your attempt to equate atheism with religion. [especially when its definition means without theism]. Oh, and Kwanzaa is not a religion.


I'd be hostile to any such attempts also. And yes you are right about Kwanzaa not being a religion.

But none of this explains why you are so hostile to Christianity (along with many of the other posters here). To insist that its because Christians are trying to force their religious views on you through the legal system makes you out to be either dishonest or remarkably paranoid.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By tng on 9/28/2010 6:44:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Christian theology preaches against murder, but rational people are against murder without the need for any commandments.
Actually people do not have any such views naturally, if you were raised from birth in a society that had no such qualms about murder you would have a different viewpoint.

Also I think that atheism is just as much of a religion as any mainstream faith out there. Although most of atheism's targets seems to be Christianity.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By eskimospy on 9/28/2010 9:42:50 PM , Rating: 2
This is untrue, prohibitions against murder have arisen in every human society regardless of what religion they practice. The obvious implication of this is that humans prohibit murder without divine prompting.

Atheism is not a religion, it is the exact opposite of religion as it makes no attempt to explain the presence or current composition of life or the universe.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Calindar on 9/28/2010 9:54:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Actually people do not have any such views naturally, if you were raised from birth in a society that had no such qualms about murder you would have a different viewpoint.

This argument makes no sense. The belief that murder is bad is easily explainable by natural and evolutionary processes, and takes no divine guidance.

It's simple. A society that endorses murder is less likely to survive, reproduce, and spread. A society whose murder rate is greater than it's birth rate is a society that goes extinct. It is beneficial to the society as a whole to have the majority of members be against murder, and the society is more likely to thrive.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By eskimospy on 9/28/2010 10:31:11 PM , Rating: 2
I never said that Christianity is enforced through law, perhaps I was not clear enough. What I meant was that elements of Christian belief like opposition to sodomy was enforced by law in the US until very recently. I already gave you examples of laws, or attempts at laws to enforce a Christian viewpoint on non Christians. I'm not going to address your thoughts on AIDS, the law, and sodomy because I find them irrelevant. The principle basis for sodomy laws in the US is religious, specifically Christian in origin. This is not really in dispute.

Saying that Christians wish to enforce those values on us isn't paranoid, it's a fact. Do some quick Google searches on the subject and look at the platforms of numerous prominent Republican candidates and state parties. They will flat out tell you that's what they want.

I'm hostile to Christians because they are the ones doing most of it. I would be every bit as equally hostile to Hindus if they were trying the same stuff. If we could all just agree to make laws based upon empirical evidence and only teach science in science class, I would be a very happy man. I don't think that's too much to ask.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Nightraptor on 9/29/2010 12:26:41 AM , Rating: 2
On what objective basis is it wrong to force ones beliefs on another? I mean I feel it is wrong and you obviously feel it is wrong, but I see no objective reason why it is wrong. If a faction can gain enough influence and power in a society to force society to conform to their ideals who is to say that they are wrong for doing so. After all isn't that really what goes on every election when we cast our vote. We are hoping that whoever it is we are voting for will gain enough seats and positions of power to carry out their agenda and shape society in the way they wish for it to be shaped.

Now one of course could argue that the minority must be protected from the tyranny of the majority, but that is a subjective value of the country in which we live. It is by no means universal in the world I see no objective reason why it should be other than I would like it to be that way. Ultimately might makes right.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By eskimospy on 9/29/2010 12:54:07 AM , Rating: 2
Seriously?

It's wrong by the standards that our society is founded by, what other measure would we use to determine right and wrong? It's not wrong by any objective basis, because objective measures don't make these sort of normative judgments. That's why we're talking about America and not some Platonic make believe society.

Every law forces action on some who do not wish it, but I very clearly stated that it was the laws without a rational basis that I objected to.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/29/10, Rating: -1
RE: And the correct answer is...
By eskimospy on 9/29/2010 10:42:33 AM , Rating: 1
I'm not sure why this point keeps getting confused. There is nothing wrong with Christians voting for Christian candidates. What IS wrong is for those Christian candidates to pass laws that enforce Christian beliefs without a rational, objective basis for them, much as the laws I mentioned earlier were.

So, to be very clear, a vote is not valued based upon the viewpoint of the person, this isn't about voting, it's about laws, and nowhere in anything I have written did I come anywhere even remotely close to saying what you're trying to claim I said. You appear to be coming from a viewpoint in which you imagine Christians to be persecuted (at least wishfully) by atheists, when it couldn't be further from the truth. I don't want to persecute you, I want you to leave me and my family alone.

Your ideas on the legal requirements for laws are... curious to say the least. You are attempting to equate the actions undertaken by a person in the service of exercising their fundamental rights to smoking and eating a Bic Mac. Then you are saying that a rational basis exists to prevent a woman from having an abortion because you think she might be sad afterwards. (I won't address your argument about a fetus being a person as it's inevitably a contest of silly semantics). Needless to say, good luck with those. Even a Supreme Court as conservative as this one will make short work of your ideas.

These ideas are precisely the nanny state type of laws that I find it quite likely you oppose in nearly every other area of life. It seems pretty clear to me that you started with opposition to these things, then worked backwards to find an excuse as to why they should be illegal as opposed to the other way around.

Finally your idea of what atheists think about schools is baffling to say the least. Atheists want science to be taught in science class, no more, no less. Intelligent design is religion, not science, and so it has no place there. I have not once, ever, in my entire life known an atheist that objected to intelligent design being taught in a philosophy class, and I'm willing to bet I know way way more atheists than you do. Needless to say, your idea of what 'most' atheists want is simply incorrect.

I'm not sure where you get this idea that you're so hated by me. I barely think about religion on the average day (if I'm not typing about it here). What I feel for you is not hatred, but envy. I wish I could live in the bliss of a pleasant fairy tale that tells me that everything is going to be okay. I recently became very ill, to the point of almost death. Trust me, nothing would have made me happier than to be able to believe I would be okay if I died. Sadly, it's just not so. (I'm all better now though, wheee!)


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 10:52:08 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I wish I could live in the bliss of a pleasant fairy tale that tells me that everything is going to be okay.

I guess you don't care that this type of behavior is unnecessary? What if you turn out to be wrong? I don't see anyone mocking you for you decision to be an atheist...


RE: And the correct answer is...
By eskimospy on 9/29/2010 1:52:14 PM , Rating: 3
People are mocking you for your willful ignorance, your inability to grasp simple concepts that have been told to you repeatedly, your repeated logical fallacies presented as reasoned debate, and the fact that you are immune to reason.

This is likely an element of your religious fanaticism, but it is not actually specific to your Christianity. In fact, I imagine there are several Christians among those who are mocking you here. I really want you to be clear on this, as it doesn't have to be this way.

There is no 'what if I'm wrong'. I can't make myself believe something, and to even attempt to do so is incredibly dishonest. If there ever ends up being a shred of evidence to believe in god, trust me I'll be at the front of the line. Chances are from my medical history I'll live a shorter life than most, and so I find the idea of an afterlife particularly appealing.

What I find appealing has no bearing on what reality is unfortunately, and so we're both stuck. The only difference is that I'm conscious of it. So again, this is why I envy Christians, but could never delude myself into being one.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/29/2010 3:08:57 PM , Rating: 2
eskimospy,

Thanks again for your recent response. My reply follows:

quote:

What IS wrong is for those Christian candidates to pass laws that enforce Christian beliefs without a rational, objective basis for them, much as the laws I mentioned earlier were.


It seems like we're going around in circles here. I agree with you that no one should pass laws that enforce Christian beliefs. That would go against the statement in the Constitution that says:

quote:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.


Thus if anyone ever tried to pass a law making the Baptist church the official church of the United States, or requiring all citizens to attend a church at least 5 times a year, or requiring children to be baptized, etc, I would be with you in opposing such a law.

However, just because a law may closely mirror Christian values does not make it fall under this category. For example, laws against drug use, prostitution, polygamy, penalizing divorcees for committing adultery in marital property settlements, or lying under oath.

If you want to say that cultural standards expressed by voters should be discounted because they may be religiously motivated and replace those standards with a pseudo-constitutional "consenting adults" standard, in order to be logically consistent you would have to argue that adultery should not be a penalizing factor in divorce settlements because the two parties involved were consenting, and that prositution should be legal.

I realize that these types of things may truly reflect your moral value system, but they do not reflect mine. And my values should not be suppressed because they may be motivated by religious beliefs any more than your values should be suppressed because they are motivated by secular beliefs.

The only time laws based upon either one of our viewpoints should be automatically invalidated is if they directly contradict the constitution. So if I think that only Christian books should be sold in the country and I get a law passed that says that, then according to the constitution that goes against freedom of speech and the press and should immediately be invalidated.

quote:

I don't want to persecute you, I want you to leave me and my family alone.


That's really not the truth. You want me to be silent. There is something about my belief system that is highly offensive and threatening to you, but rather than admit that deep down inside this causes a great deal of turmoil and discomfort, it is easier to claim that I am trying to impose Christianity on the population through the legal system.

quote:

You are attempting to equate the actions undertaken by a person in the service of exercising their fundamental rights to smoking and eating a Bic Mac.


How exactly is homosexuality a fundamental right? The only fundamental rights we have are enunciated in the constitution and bill of rights. You may emotionally feel that homosexuality is a fundamental right, but legally there is nothing in our founding documents that confers such a right.

quote:

Then you are saying that a rational basis exists to prevent a woman from having an abortion because you think she might be sad afterwards. (I won't address your argument about a fetus being a person as it's inevitably a contest of silly semantics). Needless to say, good luck with those. Even a Supreme Court as conservative as this one will make short work of your ideas.


I was saying that peer reviewed scientific research exists that demonstrates that abortion can be harmful. So the same exact basis that gives the government the right to regulate smoking gives the government the right to regulate abortion. There is no inherent right to abortion expressed in the Constitution (liberal judges notwithstanding).

Personally, I believe that unborn babies are human beings and this alone should be the basis of their legal protection. And the science backs me on that as well.

quote:

These ideas are precisely the nanny state type of laws that I find it quite likely you oppose in nearly every other area of life. It seems pretty clear to me that you started with opposition to these things, then worked backwards to find an excuse as to why they should be illegal as opposed to the other way around.


I find this statement quite astonishing in the light of the recent national health care legislation, which is quite intrusive and passed against the will of the people. Interestingly enough, the Obama administration argued while trying to pass the legislation that the fees involved weren't a tax, and then defending the legislation in the court are not arguing that the fees ARE a tax. So they are doing exactly what you accuse me of doing.

quote:

Atheists want science to be taught in science class, no more, no less. Intelligent design is religion, not science, and so it has no place there. I have not once, ever, in my entire life known an atheist that objected to intelligent design being taught in a philosophy class, and I'm willing to bet I know way way more atheists than you do.


Did you hear about the atheists shutting down the showing of the film "Darwin's Dilemma" at the Smithsonian in California? That was pure censorship, because the film threatened the worldview of atheism. This has nothing to do with an allegiance to science and everything to do with the promotion of atheism and secular, relativistic values.

You may know more atheists than I do, but I'm pretty sure you haven't talked to more of them. I debate atheists as a sort of hobby. I find dialogue with them to be extremely fascinating and insightful. It's one of my main forms of entertainment. As a former atheist myself, I can relate to how many of them feel.

quote:

I'm not sure where you get this idea that you're so hated by me. I barely think about religion on the average day (if I'm not typing about it here). What I feel for you is not hatred, but envy. I wish I could live in the bliss of a pleasant fairy tale that tells me that everything is going to be okay. I recently became very ill, to the point of almost death. Trust me, nothing would have made me happier than to be able to believe I would be okay if I died. Sadly, it's just not so. (I'm all better now though, wheee!)


I'm very glad that you recovered from your illness! And I don't think you hate me, just that you have an unusual hostility to the Judeo-Christian faith systems. Unusual in the magnitude of the hostility, not in the commonality. If you read many of the other comments on this very message board, you will find this same type of attitude everywhere. The face that the Judeo-Christian belief systems evokes such outrage is very telling and a sign of its power.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By eskimospy on 9/29/2010 4:37:46 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think you're understanding what I'm writing.

If something is a Christian value and it has a rational basis/benefit for society, I have no problem with it. I only have a problem with it when it is EXCLUSIVELY a Christian value, and one that restricts the rights of others for no rational reason. (like sodomy laws, prop 8, etc.)

I most certainly would not have to argue that adultery should not be punished, as it is in many ways a material breach of a marriage contract, and I happen to believe that prostitution should be legal. This gets to the crux of my problem. Why does it matter to YOU if someone you don't know and will never know sleeps with a prostitute or cheats on their wife? The golden rule as far as I am considered is: people can do whatever they want so long as they aren't harming anyone else. Until you can show how their divorce hurts you in a measurable way, leave them alone.

As for the health care bill, I'm not going to get into it. The US health care system is far, far more complex than how you put it to say the least.

In addition, the Bill of Rights itself explicitly refutes your idea that the only rights possessed by people are those enumerated in the Constitution. (9th Amendment). Regardless of your acceptance of that though, the type of jurisprudence you are pushing for has not been practiced in the US for longer than either one of us has been alive. If you don't like it, I'm sorry but that's simply not how our country works.

(oh, and Darwin's Dilemma wasn't screened because again, it's not science, it's religion)

Finally, and I have repeated myself many times on this, I have no desire for you to be silent in any way, shape, or form. I have never wished this, nor will I ever wish it. What I DO wish is for you to refrain from using the coercive power of the state in order to compel me to behave according to religious precepts that you hold and I do not. This has absolutely NOTHING to do with you being silent.

You are mistaking rage at Christianity for contempt of those who try to force it on me. I'm not really interested in convincing anyone of how tolerant I am towards your religion because I know what I believe, and I can very comfortably say that the day Christians in America stop trying to push it on me is the day I'll never think of it again. This might not make sense to you as you live a very different life, but religion simply doesn't merit my attention.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/29/10, Rating: 0
RE: And the correct answer is...
By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 10:48:14 AM , Rating: 1
It's a crying shame that a great post like this gets instantly downrated into an oblivion. I guess people don't want to realize that they are fully responsible for all the things that they do in life.

quote:
Regarding abortion, recent scientific studies and medical advances have demonstrated that women are more likely to suffer psychologically as a result of having an abortion and that fetuses are in fact, human beings. So the science backs up anti-abortion laws too!

Also, what if one of those aborted babies could have grown up and found the cure for aids/cancer/Alzheimer etc?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By kd9280 on 9/29/2010 12:21:22 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, oh! I can play this game, too!

What if one of those aborted babies became the next genocidal maniacal dictator or child molester or (more likely) some deadbeat who asks government for a handout and whines when his 'rights' are trampled because he saw two guys holding hands?


By Quadrillity on 9/29/2010 1:36:15 PM , Rating: 1
So all deadbeats who ask the government for handouts are repulsed by homosexuality?

This is a cool game LoL :)


By Cheesew1z69 on 9/29/2010 3:42:11 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Being a homosexual, for example, has many inherent health disadvantages. The average lifespan of a homosexual is signficantly lower than that of a non-homosexual.
Huh?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Helbore on 9/28/2010 2:54:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
"The irony is that if the pure Evolutionists are wrong, and God did in fact create Man, then the Evolutionists are all damned to spend eternity in Hell; whereas if the Creationists are wrong and life is truly random selection, then all the Creationists stand to lose is the time they spent defending creation. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of caution..."


This is the most pathetically worthless argument of them all. It would only work in a world with only one religion (and where only one religion is possible).

We don't have "Evolutionists" and "Creationists." We have scientists who study Evolution, people who accept the studies of the scientists and a whole plethora of different religions that believe all sorts of different things; many of which damn all the others for believing something different.

A Christian might believe in creationism, but if he dies and meets Allah in the afterlife, he hasn't hedged his bets by believing in creationism, hs he?

Besides, what sort of dodgy belief system says "I don't know if this is true or not, but someone told me if I don't believe I might burn for all eternity." If that's the only reason you believe, you don't really believe. You're just lying aobut it because you've soiled yourself over a potential threat.

It's like telling the school bully you think he's the coolest guy alive. You don't really believe it, you just say it because you don't want him to kick your ass. Only if religion is real, the school bully knows your every thought, so he already knows your only saying it to protect your hide - and that means damnation anyway.

There really isn't any other way to look at it. This argument sucks balls the size of mutant coconuts.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 4:14:44 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree with you. I also don't think it is a valid argument. Saying you believe does not cover you anyway. You have to know, and you will then live as you know, and it will "bear fruit" There is no 'just in case' clause in the Bible.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 1:44:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
To use another poster's excellent example. If God is all powerful and infallible (aka cannot be wrong). And if God hates evil (thall shalt not kill). Then if any evil act ever happened in the history of man (any man died at the hand of another man), then God would be either a liar (as evil exists because of his inaction), or he not all powerful (he cannot stop it).

First of all, you believe that God owes any of us anything?

Second, what do you feel you deserve? Do you believe you are good? If so, how many good deeds does it take to overcome the bad ones? When you do good, do you want recognition? If so, then your 'good' was done so you could feel good about yourself, and possibly be told how good you are? That type of motivation is selfish.

Let's assume there is Heaven, and it will be perfect. Your argument against God is that our short life here is full of imperfection? That there should be no pain, no evil? Because you say so?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: And the correct answer is...
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 2:27:22 PM , Rating: 2
While I tend to agree, we cannot know the full mind of God. I would also like to add that if we suppose God was physically present, a face in the sky, booming voice, how long would it take man to rebel? God would then have to intervene, be a giant superhero who would swoop down and save the lady in distress.
Man was commanded to populate and subdue the Earth. Logic will bring you back to the way things are now, with faith and doubt.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: And the correct answer is...
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 12:26:54 AM , Rating: 2
You'd better straighten up and mend your ways before your soul is weighed by the balance held by Osiris.

You may not believe in Osiris, but he has the same basis for existence that the Christian God does. Ask any believer and they will tell you that Osiris will weigh your soul when you die and the Christian tales are all lies or allegorical forms based on the one true religion :P

Verifiable fact even ... worship of the Great Gods of Egypt predate the God of Abraham :D


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Skywalker123 on 9/28/2010 5:59:12 PM , Rating: 2
He does use terror and intimidation, what do you call Hell?
He gives you just enough info, so if you guess their is no god, which has the preponderance of the evidence, but guess wrong and believe in the wrong god you burn in Hell forever and ever for a limited crime? Nice guy, your imaginary friend. Mine is named Harvey, he's a Pooka you know.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 8:03:39 PM , Rating: 2
I believe hell is a complete removal from God. That is where you say you want to be.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: And the correct answer is...
By Skywalker123 on 9/29/2010 2:31:48 AM , Rating: 2
So why did God give all this proof to the Israelites and NONE to everyone else?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Fritzr on 9/29/2010 3:13:18 AM , Rating: 2
The Isrealites were Chosen to purify the Promised Land by murdering anyone found there who didn't belong to their tribe. They were true believers in peace and justice.

Meanwhile the tribes of other lands had been given similar missions by the Gods the Isrealis had been forbidden to worship.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/29/10, Rating: -1
RE: And the correct answer is...
By Helbore on 9/28/2010 2:58:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If so, then your 'good' was done so you could feel good about yourself, and possibly be told how good you are? That type of motivation is selfish.


You mean like someone who offers you redemption and eternal life, but only under the specific circumstance that you love him and worship him?

God (of the Bible) is the ultimate in selfishness. I'm just glad he's a story.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/28/2010 3:11:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

You mean like someone who offers you redemption and eternal life, but only under the specific circumstance that you love him and worship him?


I don't think so. What would be the alternative? To spend eternity with someone who hates you? Why would anyone want to do that?

And I completely disagree about the selfishness charge. On the contrary, God has given complete free will to choose to reject Him. The fact that He chooses to honor your decision by not forcing you to spend eternity with Him is actually giving YOU what you want!


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Skywalker123 on 9/28/2010 6:09:24 PM , Rating: 2
One alternative would be like the Early Jews believed anyway. If you were evil you would simply die at the end of your life and that was it. No Hell. Why punish a poor imperfect creature for eternity for screwing up for what would be equivalent of a fraction of a second. On the selfishness charge, thats like a rapist telling a woman she is free to reject him, but he's gonna set her on fire.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By wgbutler on 9/28/2010 9:53:33 PM , Rating: 2
In my other reply to you I stated my belief in the doctrine of annihilationism. God completely destroys the wicked at the final judgment rather than torturing them for all eternity.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 3:19:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
God (of the Bible) is the ultimate in selfishness.


God is just and good.
Man was created.
Man fell into sin.
We live sinful lives. Make a list of good/bad that you do and think on a daily basis, if you are not aware already.
What do we deserve?
We are given Christ, to take our place.
We accept/ we don't.
I don't deserve Heaven. Do you feel you do?
You can deny your Father, but how can he let you in if you never go home?

quote:
someone who offers you redemption

I know I can use it.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By flatrock on 9/28/2010 3:34:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Thank you, Ronald Reagan. For once again intentionally misrepresenting the term "theory" as it is use in science. Scientifically speaking, a "theory" is the most well-supported idea there is...several notches up from conjectures and hypothesis. Only after intense research and study of all available evidence can an idea be considered a theory - and there is no theory ever made that has such a plethora of supporting evidence as the theory of Evolution.


While he might be understating what a theory is, you are understating it. The real difference between a hypothesis and a theory is that a hypothesis is untested. It hasn't really been challenged yet.

A theory has been tested and while it has not been proved, it has not been disproved either. A law is a scientific theory that has stood up to scientific testing and provides sound and reliable insight into the world around us.

So why isn't the Thoery of Evolution a law? After all it has never been disproven?

Because it is basically so vague that it cannot be proven or disproven. That does not mean it isn't insightful or useful. But the Theory of Evolution basically says everything is random and the interaction of random events produces a illusion of order and the order we see is the result of Natural Selection.

However, Natural Selection is in itself vague and broad. It says that generally desirable traits will survive more often than undersirble, but since everything is random there is no gaurantee that will occurr in all cases, just that they have a higher probability of surviving.

Reasonable conjecture, but essentially unprovable and undisprovable. Therefore it can never be more than a theory.

When we look at our world things that appear random, but if we concentrate on specific parts of the whole we see order, if narrow our focus farther we see what appears to be randomness again and so on.

At the same time we can look at things that appear random such as the weather and see that there is an overall order that governs it at a higher level.

The Theory of Evolution leads us to believe that the source of all these levels of order, the lop level view, is randomness and what order we see is formed through natural selection.

You are correct that Religion is not testable because any evidence can be explained away. What you are ignoring is that the Thoery of Evolution shares that limitation. Anything that you say conforms to Evolution someone else can say also conforms to their idea of Intelligent design.

You are arguing Evolution vs ID you are essentially arguing theology, not science at that point because neither is scientifically provable or disprovable.

Evolution is a useful tool with which to help you form other theories which you can then attempt to prove or disprove. It is something that is extremely broad that you can narrow down into something more specific that can be proved or disproved, and many of those theories may prove far more useful.

People read far too much into the Theory of Evolution and then take dramatic stands on what they have read into it, not the Theory itself. Don't make a scientific theory into what is basically an athestic belief structure. Science doesn't support that.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By kd9280 on 9/28/2010 11:08:19 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Evolution is a THEORY.


You keep using that word. I don't think it means what you think it does.

HINT: Gravity is a theory, germ theory , wavelength theory of light. If you discount evolution because it's a theory, you'll have to discount those as well. Do you subscribe to Intelligent Falling?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By kd9280 on 9/28/2010 11:12:34 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The irony is that if the pure Evolutionists are wrong, and God did in fact create Man, then the Evolutionists are all damned to spend eternity in Hell; whereas if the Creationists are wrong and life is truly random selection, then all the Creationists stand to lose is the time they spent defending creation. Personally, I'd rather err on the side of caution...


Also, Pascal's Wager is not good logic. There are not two possibilities. There are infinite possibilities. You have to weigh your belief in the Christian god against every religion that current exists, has existed in the past, or will exist in the future, as well as every possible reasoning for the existence of humanity.

Watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU - and get back to me.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Flunk on 9/28/2010 11:16:36 AM , Rating: 2
I think this study might be on to something. People who argue for the religious ideal tend to rely on non-sensical reasoning. What makes people give up all reason more than fear?


RE: And the correct answer is...
By Suntan on 9/28/2010 12:07:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The irony is that if the pure Evolutionists are wrong, and God did in fact create Man, then the Evolutionists are all damned to spend eternity in Hell


But this would only occur *if* the correct form of religion to believe in is one where you worship a vengeful God that will take revenge on the people that don’t believe in him...

Personally, I’d like to believe in God. I really would. I’d like to belong to a religion. I’m just waiting for all of you religious people to go ahead, make your minds up and agree which one is the correct answer.

Once you all stop killing each other to determine who’s religion is the right one, I’ll check back and decide if I want to believe in the wining group...

-Suntan


By chunkymonster on 9/28/2010 1:08:24 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But this would only occur *if* the correct form of religion to believe in is one where you worship a vengeful God that will take revenge on the people that don’t believe in him...
The fallacy that one religion if "right" and others are "wrong" (with the exception of Islam) are actually contradictory to many religious precepts; contrary to Buddhism, Toaism, Christianity, Sikhism, Zoroastrianism, and so on...it has been through Man's ego and interpretation of "God's will" that created the notion of one religion being right and another wrong.

quote:
Personally, I’d like to believe in God. I really would. I’d like to belong to a religion. I’m just waiting for all of you religious people to go ahead, make your minds up and agree which one is the correct answer. Once you all stop killing each other to determine who’s religion is the right one, I’ll check back and decide if I want to believe in the wining group.
If you really wanted to believe in God, then do not let anyone stop you. Waiting for everyone to decide to tell you what is "the right religion" is a cop-out excuse and shows a lack of conviction.

Most importantly though, believe in something larger than yourself, do what you can to help your fellow man, and attempt to end the day leaving the world better in a better place than when the day started. If you follow these simple ideas, then you really don't need organized religion.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By straycat74 on 9/28/2010 2:39:06 PM , Rating: 2
Religion is not something to aspire to be a part of. For example, being a Christian doesn't mean you are religious. Being a good Catholic does. When you accept Christ as your Lord and savior, you are a Christian. Study your Bible, find other people to study with. Get to know God through his word, through prayer. Gods Church is a whole, not a building or group of people in a town. Some may be Baptist, or Catholic, Protestant, but only God knows their heart. You eventually will want to be part of the greater Christian community and find a church to attend. Some people will seem good, some bad, because we are all sinners(imperfect).


By Wiggy Mcshades on 9/28/2010 1:02:59 PM , Rating: 1
creationism is logically unsound, evolution does not have that same anchor weighing it down.

http://www.stonemakerargument.com/1.html

that is actually the best way to explain.


By astrotech66 on 9/28/2010 1:31:33 PM , Rating: 1
Yes, by all means believe in your god and theology "just in case" so you don't go to hell. I'm sure your omniscient god won't see through that at all.

And all those people who support evolution are going to hell because they used their brains to examine the evidence available to them and came to a reasonable conclusion that evolution happened? That's a real nice theology you have ... punish people for trying to think instead of blindly believing in a deity.

I think I'll stick with my secular, scientific view of the universe, thanks.


RE: And the correct answer is...
By YashBudini on 9/28/2010 7:24:33 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The correct answer to the evolution/creation debate is...there is no answer.

I was willing to go for what's behind door #3, but I can't find that either.


What is Evolution?
By drycrust3 on 9/28/10, Rating: -1
RE: What is Evolution?
By RugMuch on 9/28/2010 11:27:48 AM , Rating: 2
Wait diamonds were already in the fossil/dinosaur you mean like in the movie twilight where the vampire sheened in the sun? The diamonds didn't take a long ass time to develop? You do know what fossils are right? They are not actually bone anymore. So neglecting the all the other wrongs you stated I have to ask you to next time write in a few pterodactyl noises into your post so we all know you're retarded


RE: What is Evolution?
By zippyzoo on 9/28/2010 11:34:00 AM , Rating: 2
I like the subject line he obviously doesn't know since he hasn't... well you know evolved.


RE: What is Evolution?
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 12:04:30 PM , Rating: 2
So allow me to ask why there have been (on rare occasions) that skin,DNA, bone marrow has been found in dino fossils? I guess creationist "planted" them there huh?


RE: What is Evolution?
By RugMuch on 9/28/2010 12:22:50 PM , Rating: 2
You are implying that diamonds can develop in Lagerstätte. Boy are you thick.


RE: What is Evolution?
By StevoLincolnite on 9/28/2010 12:26:12 PM , Rating: 2
*sigh*

Bone, Skin,, Wood and Shell, although hard, have minute air spaces.
When buried, water containing dissolved minerals may seep into these spaces and deposit minerals.
Often, over millions of years, all of the original bone or shell dissolves away leaving a complete mineral replacement embedded in the surrounding rock.
The bones, wood and shell are then said to be petrified; i.e. turned to stone.

Your God did nothing.


RE: What is Evolution?
By PresidentThomasJefferson on 9/28/2010 7:57:50 PM , Rating: 2
Fossils are organic material ENCASED IN SANDSTONE, MUDSTONE, AMBER, ETC (just as if you buried Jimmy Hoffa in concrete).. as long as it's airtight, which is what most fossils are, you can have organic matter lasting billions of years ..

Do you know how fossilization works? bones/animals get buried in mud, limestone, sand, etc.. sometimes the mud, sand, amber, etc hardens fast enough that it preserves/encases the organic material indefinitely.. like being frozen in ice or ultra cold lake/river bottoms... sometimes most or all of the organic matter decays away..sometimes it happens fast enough to save some of the organic material in airtight areas as the material gets compressed
---
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.htm...


RE: What is Evolution?
By Quadrillity on 9/28/2010 8:51:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
as long as it's airtight, which is what most fossils are, you can have organic matter lasting billions of years ..

Entire mountains disappear in a matter of a thousand years yet a single rock can survive intact for billions?

Be careful of what you believe. It will catch up with you one day.

You must believe that you are an ancestor of a rock; while I believe that we were created by God. And you call mine ridiculous?


RE: What is Evolution?
By StevoLincolnite on 9/29/2010 12:40:02 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Entire mountains disappear in a matter of a thousand years yet a single rock can survive intact for billions?


Oxygen is one of the most corrosive things on earth, Mountains... Are generally surrounded by it.

A fossil is meters under-ground where the forces of nature has no impact, it stays there un-disturbed.

Kinda makes sense that a rock can survive Billions of years yet a mountain might only last mere thousands or millions.

quote:
Be careful of what you believe. It will catch up with you one day.


Same thing can be said about your God that does not apply to me in any way.

quote:
You must believe that you are an ancestor of a rock; while I believe that we were created by God. And you call mine ridiculous?


Rocks aren't even organic? What are you? A moron?


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