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Xbox 360 Failures Over First Two Years  (Source: SquareTrade)
Most Xbox 360 failures in first two years due to RROD

With any consumer electronic device that is manufactured be it a mobile phone or a game console, there are bound to be some of the devices that fail for one reason or another. This is particularly true of game consoles like the PS3, Xbox, and Wii.

While some failures are to be expected with game consoles, it came to years ago that the Xbox 360 was failing at a very significant rate with the so called RROD failure. DailyTech reported details of the failures due to RROD previously. Microsoft acknowledged the failure rate of the console and extended the warranty for RROD failures to three years.

Microsoft, however, has not denied recent reports that the Xbox 360 has a 54.2% lifetime failure rate.

SquareTrade has released the results of a study (PDF) into the failure rates of game consoles on the market today. The three major consoles were included in the study. SquareTrade looked at failure rates over the first two years of ownership and found that the most reliable console of them all was the Nintendo Wii with only a 2.7% failure rate. The PS3 was next with a 10% failure rate, and the Xbox 360 has a 23.7% failure rate over the first two years.

The major catch with the SquareTrade numbers is that the company acknowledges that it believes the failure rate of the Xbox 360 to be much higher than it is posting because many consumers reported the failure to Microsoft directly and SquareTrade wasn't notified of the failure. It would be wise to assume that the failure rate on the other two consoles is probably a bit lower than the actual numbers as well.

Despite the fact that the numbers in the study are admittedly skewed on the low side, the Xbox 360 still failed within two years for 1 in 4 consoles. That is nearly nine times the rate of failure for the Wii. SquareTrade reports that a bit more than half the reported Xbox failures were due to the RROD issue. When the RROD failures are taken out of the mix, the Xbox 360 failure rate dropped to 11.6%, still making it more likely to fail than the PS3 and the Wii.

SquareTrade expects the failure rate for the Xbox 360 to decline significantly with the Jasper update. The study acknowledges that the amount of use a console gets is related to its failure rate, The Wii is used on average 516 minutes per month, the PS3 is used 1053 minutes per month, and the Xbox 360 gets used 1191 minutes per month. That makes the Xbox 360 the most commonly used of all three consoles.

Xbox consoles fail for reasons other than the RROD issue with the second most common failure being disc read issues followed by display issues. SquareTrade found that once the Jasper update for the Xbox was released the percentage of RROD failures dropped dramatically after spiking post Falcon update.


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Redundant
By gyranthir on 9/3/2009 12:19:45 PM , Rating: 2
Redundant news is redundant.

The Wii uses like 8 year old tech.

It uses the same processor as the gamecube. Same broadway chip.

It's a piece, old tech in a new white plastic case...




RE: Redundant
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 12:43:00 PM , Rating: 4
...and it's blowing the doors off of the XBox 360 and PS3. You might want to include that fact in your list of other facts.

Everyone knows the Wii hasn't got nearly the same power as the other 2. Everyone also knows the other 2 are footnotes to the Wii's sales success. Ergo, your intended arguement that everyone should discredit the Wii because it's not as powerful as the other 2 consoles is invalid.


RE: Redundant
By gyranthir on 9/3/2009 1:30:19 PM , Rating: 1
No, my argument is that it is old tech, time tested (10 years old), and has 0 real chance of failure because it's an old processor that's not very powerful and doesn't create much heat, but also can't do much work.
Also, it doesn't hurt that like 70% of Wii's are sitting dusty unplayed on people's entertainment centers or closets...


RE: Redundant
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 1:46:10 PM , Rating: 5
...you'd have to come up with some kind of study for your "dusty on the shelf" theory and then compare that to how many other consoles are also "dusty on the shelf" to support that.

And yes, the less advanced tech is easier to keep alive. Which is almost certainly at least one reason why Wiis don't blow up like XBoxes do.


RE: Redundant
By walk2k on 9/3/2009 4:10:01 PM , Rating: 4
LOL

FROM THE ARTICLE YOU ARE COMMENTING ON:
quote:
The Wii is used on average 516 minutes per month, the PS3 is used 1053 minutes per month, and the Xbox 360 gets used 1191 minutes per month.


RTFA


RE: Redundant
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 4:27:14 PM , Rating: 1
Thanks for proving my point...and proving you're incapable of discerning the purpose of the Caps Lock feature of your keyboard.

...thanks also for totally being incapable of understanding the term "casual gamer." You know...people who's lives don't revolve around their video consoles...people who actually have lives.

~9 hours a month is probably pretty good for casual gamers. They play a game for a bit, have a little fun, then get on with it. Rather than sitting their fat asses down on the couch and spending all night playing GTA because they have nothing else to do.


RE: Redundant
By eddieroolz on 9/3/2009 6:43:04 PM , Rating: 2
Again with your stereotypes.

Just because you think all gamers are fat and play GTA doesn't make every gamer fat and play GTA. See the difference?

Or are you so self-absorbed in the "activities" of yours that you can't even see the difference?

Hell, a clan I belong on in CoD5 has plenty of 30-40 year olds. No, they are programmers, not fat people living in their mom's basement. They have successful jobs and use killer rigs to play CoD5. That doesn't make them fat gamers.


RE: Redundant
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 7:57:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just because you think all gamers are fat and play GTA doesn't make every gamer fat and play GTA. See the difference?


Way to miss the point. I am categorically sure that not every XBox/PS3 player is fat and plays GTA. Just most of them. Seriously, though, the point is that not everyone *wants* to sit on the couch and play a game for hours on end. Like...apparently the vast majority of people who might be interested in owning a video console.

As for your clan, I am a member of a WoW guild that is pretty much all 30-somethings. We all have good jobs, have families, etc. Our rigs are sweet. As for whether or not some of us are fat...well, we are Americans. But I don't have any interest in owning an XBox or PS3, because anything they can do I can do on my PC. So I see no reason to own one. We do own a Wii because it does stuff the other consoles, and PCs, can't do. And we use it casually...once in a while, for a little while, or when people come over. Just like the target casual gamer market.


RE: Redundant
By Alexstarfire on 9/4/2009 1:28:24 AM , Rating: 1
He also didn't mention "fat" once in his entire post. I'm glad you put words in his mouth to make you look extra stupid.


RE: Redundant
By Entropy42 on 9/4/2009 10:46:05 AM , Rating: 3
"Rather than sitting their fat asses down on the couch and spending all night playing GTA"
You're right, boy did that make him look stupid.


RE: Redundant
By Alexstarfire on 9/4/2009 11:54:11 PM , Rating: 2
Nope, I just made myself look extra stupid. I can't read good. Need to back to elementry scoo to lern ma Engrish.


RE: Redundant
By mikeyD95125 on 9/4/2009 2:14:01 PM , Rating: 2
I think you are missing the point. He's just saying that a low power console with well proven hardware, that is getting used half as much on average will naturally have a much lower failure rate.

I'd bet that if a PS3 used slightly revised PS2 hardware the thing would almost never fail.

There are some other factors that make a Wii significantly more reliable. A big one: No hard drive. It's the most the most failure prone point in any computer besides a fan or optical drive. Also the PS3 and XBOX have a greater number of faster spinning fans to keep all that hot hardware cool.

The only reason this is even news is that the Xbox should be right around the PS3 in failure rate. But it's FR is a big outlier. It is definitely something Microsoft needs to focus on for the next gen.


RE: Redundant
By JediJeb on 9/4/2009 3:14:51 PM , Rating: 2
I wonder why then that a high end computer that may run for years without being shutdown not fail at a higher rate than the xbox360?


RE: Redundant
By William Gaatjes on 9/5/2009 4:36:31 AM , Rating: 2
That is what you get when non technical people make decisions about technology they seemingly do not understand. But i must strongly point out that these people are not dumb. It is just not their field of expertise.

The marketing department makes a claim about the physical size of the console even while it is obvious that current silicon proces technology(at that timeframe, mind you) dissipates to much heat for such a small form factor . Laws of nature. There is your answer, the sheer size of the pc formfactor and the average of 6 fans does help a lot.

Coming back to the field of expertise. The marketing department do know how to influence people and make them enthusiastic, that and the prognoses that silicon process will shrink resulting in chips that dissipate less heat will make up for the fact that the first series of consoles will fail. But by then the rather large loyal fan base will be estahblished and income is ensured.

It is all a point of perspective.

Afcourse this is hind sight but it has proven to work over and over again.


RE: Redundant
By afkrotch on 9/10/2009 3:31:53 AM , Rating: 2
Probably because the manufacturers put the time and effort into making sure that they will run smoothly. They'd lose face if their hardware was failing left and right. Also, high end computer parts come out at the same time for everyone. There's no "we released the Intel Core 9 Quad Triple Duo a year before our competition."

Pretty much Microsoft just said screw the flaws and release it anyways. We'll deal with the failures.


RE: Redundant
By wallijonn on 9/8/2009 5:02:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
He's just saying that a low power console with well proven hardware, that is getting used half as much on average will naturally have a much lower failure rate.


Two good reasons why it isn't used as much as the other two consoles could be because there aren't as many AAA titles, that there's too much shovelware, or that the casual gamer doesn't want to pay $50 to $60 a game. The latter is remedied by renting instead of buying and would therefore certainly figure into the monthly usage. But what if there isn't anything worth renting because most of it is shovelware?

The same could be said of the PS3, though, since it doesn't have the library that the 360 does and some PS3 games do not have the add-ons that the same 360 game does (Fallout 3, for example). For those of us who have both, or all three consoles, we're more likely to pick up the 360 version. Next consider that some PS3 games only do 720p versus the same game on the 360 (last Star Wars game, for example) and again, the owner of both consoles is more likely to pick up the 360 version that does 1080i and 1080p.

And, yes, my Wii is collecting dust. I also have the 360 Jasper and the PS3, along with an N64 and PS2. But I keep the Wii around for GC games. Most games I buy for the 360.


RE: Redundant
By otispunkmeyer on 9/5/2009 9:12:25 AM , Rating: 2
everyone i know who owns a Wii.... bout 6 people... havent picked up a wii mote in a long time. it does literally just sit there collecting dust.

then again before this long spell of not using it... at least one of those wii got the crap played out of it with mario kart every night of the week.


RE: Redundant
By swaaye on 9/3/2009 4:18:27 PM , Rating: 2
Well I see it another way.

Gamecubes didn't fail much either. Consoles other than PS2 and Xbox 1 were not failure-ridden engineering disasters, nor were they archaic when they came out.


RE: Redundant
By swaaye on 9/3/2009 4:19:28 PM , Rating: 3
Oops, add NES's front loader to that list of failures.


RE: Redundant
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 4:49:55 PM , Rating: 2
While I agree the front loader NES was trash and poor design, I don't know if I can give you a failure for that one. Yea, might have taken a couple minutes to get games going on an old system, but I actually haven't seen one that's totally failed, minus something catastrophic happening to it, like when my cousin had his dog pee on it, or one that is insanely old. Hell, my cousin has his replacement NES still working, and it's a good 20 years old now. And my other friend has one as well that he got in a garage sale.

Just saying.


RE: Redundant
By Noubourne on 9/3/2009 1:36:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Everyone knows the Wii hasn't got nearly the same power as the other 2. Everyone also knows the other 2 are footnotes to the Wii's sales success. Ergo, your intended arguement that everyone should discredit the Wii because it's not as powerful as the other 2 consoles is invalid.


Unless you want to start counting software attach rates to show whose machines were most successful at actually selling the games they were designed to play, in which case, the Wii looks like a complete failure.


RE: Redundant
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 1:47:59 PM , Rating: 2
...there's also an assload of people who are happy with the Wii Sports that comes with the console...or maybe who only wanted 1 or 2 other games.

This is a casual gamer market, which is entirely different from the hardcore gamer market. We're talking about people who may be perfectly happy playing Wii Bowling for the rest of their lives.

...while that may very well not make the software companies happy, the issue at discussion here is console sales.


RE: Redundant
By gstrickler on 9/3/2009 2:21:08 PM , Rating: 2
"attach rates" (actually "tie rates") are only important if you're not making any money on the console, therefore, you're relying on game and accessory sales to make a profit. Nintendo is making a profit on the consoles, and on the accessories, and on the games, and who knows what else.

All of that aside, the tie rates for the 3 consoles are not that different, about 1 title per console difference from best to worst (based on months on the market) using the latest figures I can locate (March 2009). With Xbox360 @ 7.5, PS3 @ 6.5, and Wii @ 6.2, calling it a "complete failure" is absurd. The 6.2 does NOT include Wii Sports that is included with the Wii, so the actual number of titles per console for the Wii is 7.2. Even including the 12 month lead in availability the Xbox360 has, it only climbs to 8.1.

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?st...

The whole point of designing and selling a gaming console is to make money, and by that measure, Nintendo's Wii and the PS2 (yes, PS2, not PS3) are the only currently marketed consoles that are successful. Handheld/portable machines are a separate category.


RE: Redundant
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 2:29:42 PM , Rating: 2
Excellent find on the tie rate info.

I do have to take a little issue with them not counting the included Wii Sports in the tie rate though...I get that the consumer doesn't have to go and buy it seperately, but it's frankly one of the top games people play on it. And a huge reason why people buy it. I always admired that the Sega Master System came with Duck Hunt and the motorcycle game on it.

Anyway, if you add the Wii Sports into the mix, the Wii goes to 7.2 - ahead of the PS3 and just a smidge behind the XBox. Although, even as the numbers stand, it's nearly a wash anyway.


RE: Redundant
By walk2k on 9/3/2009 4:26:20 PM , Rating: 1
You don't count pack-ins.

What people forget is the Wii is CHEAPER so while it sold more units, the total sales figures in dollar amounts are much closer. Hardly "dominating".


RE: Redundant
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 4:30:03 PM , Rating: 2
It's amazing how hard you fail. "Dominating" is determined by volume sales and/or marketshare, not dollar share. If somebody invented a console that cost $1 billion, and one person bought it, they would not be "dominating" anything.

Fine, don't count the pack-in. Even without it, as has been well established, it's basically a wash.

And yes, the Wii is cheaper. Because it can and should be. I'm sure that sways a lot of consumers. Especially, one might imagine, CASUAL gamers. Because clearly, the hardcore mofos like you would pay any amount of money for the PS4.


RE: Redundant
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 4:56:30 PM , Rating: 2
How do you figure losing money per console, or breaking even, is better than making money?

And from the looks of it, even though the Wii has a slightly lower attach rate it's sold more games overall.

So again, how is selling less and making less money even in the same playing field? Dominating certainly seems like a very appropriate word.


RE: Redundant
By shazbotron on 9/4/2009 12:39:43 PM , Rating: 2
Using the front page of VGchartz.com as number of units sold along with the attach rate listed above, let us look at some numbers.

Consoles sold (VGchartz)
Wii - 52.9M
X360 - 31.67M
PS3 - 23.43M

Attach rates (from above, no source given)
X360 - 7.5
PS3 - 6.5
Wii - 6.2

New Game cost (MSRP)
Wii - $50
X360 - $60
PS3 - $60

Traditionally Distributed Software Revenue ( NOT PROFIT )
PS3 - 23.43M*6.5*60 = $9,137,700,000
X360 - 31.67M*7.5*60 = $14,251,500,000
Wii - 52.90M*6.2*50 = $16,399,000,000

Looks like they're all doing pretty well to me. Factor in hardware losses for Sony and Microsoft and Nintendo looks to be sitting pretty.


RE: Redundant
By walk2k on 9/3/2009 1:34:33 PM , Rating: 1
Unreliable study is unreliable.

The Xbox numbers are obviously much higher (MS admits as high as 54%!!) and PS3 numbers are obviously much lower, probably more like 3-5%. 10% would be considered extremely high for any CE device (unless you are MS ...)


RE: Redundant
By clovell on 9/4/2009 1:07:21 PM , Rating: 2
In all fairness, though - it's clocked nearly twice as high and the ATi components, while not revolutionary, were new for the Wii.


RE: Redundant
By William Gaatjes on 9/5/2009 4:53:26 AM , Rating: 2
The gamecube gpu was designed by ArtX. Later on ArtX was aquired by Ati. And acoording to wikipedia then the popular good performing chips of ATI started to emerge.

In all honesty, Nintendo probably still had good contact with ArtX people and thus, Ati comes into the picture.

I still find the gamecube a beautiful design.

And i am still very fond of the 1TSRAM from mosys.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1T-SRAM


heh gamers
By lenardo on 9/3/2009 1:42:06 PM , Rating: 2
The Reason why the wii won/is winning

it has more games geared towards the family.

FAMILY.

it has games for the kids, the teens the adults, and that is why it is winning.

I'm 43, have a wife 3 kids, the wii- ON AVERAGE- gets played at least 20hrs a week. we've accumulated something around 60 games for the wii- excluding wiiware and VC games-
of which i would say 30 of them are high quality fun games to play, we have everything from lego starwars/batman/indiana jones & barbie's horse academy (which is actually a decent game for tween GIRLS) for the kids to HOTD:overkill/madworld and almost every major quality game released for the wii in between..

my family plays Games, and the Wii is the most versitile among the consoles that offers something for Everyone to play.

15minutes?

mario galaxy- i have over 40hrs playing so far
hotd overkill 8hrs
madworld 4hrs
pikmin ~20hrs so far
lego starwars i think we are over 100hrs total so far
da blob ~6hrs
excitetruck ~50+hrs total
excitebots ~50hrs
punch out ~5hrs so far

my kids have at least 10hrs just in the Samurai showdown on wii sports resort.....

need i continue?

a person to plays video games CANNOT shoehorn themselves in, the purpose of a video game is to enjoy playing it, the wii has at least as many or more games of that nature than both the ps3 and 360, it is just that one's taste is different and as you age, it changes with you....




RE: heh gamers
By The0ne on 9/3/2009 7:51:48 PM , Rating: 2
It's because they are hardcore gamers, HARDCORE! WTF do these kids know about gaming pfft. Every time I see this statement made I'm thinking these morons and buffoons must logically then denounce the entire pre-ps3/xbox360 gaming era AND have no clue about the changing technology in the CPU/Video world. What a joke these people are. These are going to be the same people 10 years from now denouncing the very same thing they are supporting today. That's the real joke about them LMAO.

Simple fact they're games, enjoy them and stfu about which system it's on and whether or not you like it or not. There's millions of people that like it and think you're a dumbass like I do.

Anyhow, your explanation does sound nicer :)


RE: heh gamers
By MindParadox on 9/4/2009 4:31:01 AM , Rating: 2
had to reply here, first off, a "hardcore" gamer would shut the **** up about Doom, and talk about the actual first FPS, Castle Wolfenstein(3d didnt come till later, it was a revision)

secondly, a truly "Hardcore" gamer would play just about every game they came across, because when you are hardcore(see ANYTHING BUT gamers for this) you seek to get the absolute most out of the experience (for some reason, newbie gamers have decided that "hardcore" means playing one game, only, to the exclusion of all others. WTF?)

and thirdly, owning all 3 of the current consoles, i have a simple question to put to you

Why is the PS3 so friggin ridiculously "superior" in every way to a 360, but have almost every game playing in a lower resolution? (check just about any game for both consoles, XBox 360 game, 1080p, most PS3 games max out at 720p, which the Wii can output :P)

incidentally, Xbox360 Halo3 edition here, never repaired, no problems with it = 19.99 Nyko Cooler attached to the back :P

if the problem is heat, cool it! any "Gamer" knows this :P


RE: heh gamers
By Alexstarfire on 9/4/2009 5:48:50 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, serious gamers would either not get a console and/or play mostly on PC anyway. They also stay away from inferior products. The Jasper revision of the 360 might be different, but all the other revision of the 360 have a fairly high failure rate, and you don't need a study to show that.

Anyway, congrats on your crap hardware, which I'm assuming is pre-Jasper hence the cooler, that you had to pay to get it "fixed." And I say "fixed" because that doesn't guarantee your 360 won't fail. It likely puts it at a far lower rate though.


RE: heh gamers
By The0ne on 9/4/2009 1:52:08 PM , Rating: 2
Didn't you read what we both just said? What game player would sacrifice themselves to just a platform, PC? There are many, MANY great games on consoles as well as on PC. If you're going to stay exclusively on one platform you really have no right to comment on any other as you wouldn't really have any idea what's going on. Yes, you can have a opinion on it, as you so clearly stated, but your opinion really means jack sh*t because you know little and/or have no actual experience other than Googling this and Googling that.

How dense are you "hardcore" and "serious" gamers? Seriously...WTF is wrong with you and enjoying games, even if their not on the platform you're sleep with at night?


RE: heh gamers
By MindParadox on 9/4/2009 6:13:00 PM , Rating: 2
quite simply put, ive been playing PC games since King's Quest 1 came with my IBM PC Jr,and console games since the Magnavox Odyssey(and ive owned nearly every console since as well)

doesnt matter what platform it's on, if a game is fun, i'll play it.
and yes, that goes for Wii games that ya play for 10 minutes at a time, and 360 games like Halo or GoW that ya play for hours on end, no matter which number is after the title

and if by "Fixed" you you mean, i was forced to put a cooler on it, you are wrong

i bought a cooler for my PS3 and my Wii as well, and a watercooling system for my PC, simply because cooler electronics last longer. period.

my AV rack also has a custom designed active cooling system that i didnt HAVE to create, but i did, do you see a problem with that too?

my Xbox360 has been played nearly every day for hours at a time since(usually in 4 player multiplayer mode) since sept of 07 when i got it

ive seen jaspers (my son has one) overheat playing 4player to a console multiplayer halo3 and other games since.

then again, my third gen PS3 that is supposedly so much better melted the power plug outta the back of it WHILE A COOLER WAS ON IT while playing Little Big Planet! (Sony took 2 months to fix it)

it seriously doesnt matter what you play, if you play games, you are a gamer

the difference(in reality) from a hardcore and a casual gamer is literally the amount of time they devote to playing games, not what games they play

personally, i think anyone that has bought more than one NFL200x game is a moron, "same game, but we gave you different players!" but, i dont bash em for it, i just dont play the games :P


RE: heh gamers
By Alexstarfire on 9/4/2009 11:49:38 PM , Rating: 2
I was being quite sarcastic in the first paragraph. I'm not hardcore gamer. I used to be, but I've become to poor to be one. I didn't think I'd hit a cord on anyone like that.


RE: heh gamers
By kkwst2 on 9/7/2009 2:02:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
about the actual first FPS, Castle Wolfenstein(3d didnt come till later, it was a revision)

You either never played Castle Wolfenstein or don't know what a FPS is. It was not a FPS. You can't have a FPS without some sort of 3D perspective, and the original Wolf was flat.


This only applies to SquareTrade warranties
By Alarchy on 9/3/2009 2:33:37 PM , Rating: 2
I don't see any mention about how this "study" only includes statistics from those who purchased and used a SquareTrade warranty for their device. It also doesn't take into account who buys these external warranties; for example, is there a higher incidence of Xbox failures because there are simply more Xbox warranties compared to PS3/Wii?

Perhaps someone that would purchase a warranty like this might do so because they have heard about the suspect reliability of the 360?

In any event, this would be an excellent way for SquareTrade to advertise their warranty services to sell more for 360's.

Not that I don't believe the statistics (although, I have an original release 360 that has not had a failure yet - knock on wood!), but it just seems a bit self serving and not entirely clear that it DOESN'T in any way apply to all consoles - just those with special warranties from SquareTrade.




By walk2k on 9/3/2009 4:49:27 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah they basically admit right up front that their numbers are way off. Nice "study".


By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 5:07:05 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry, but how does the amount of warranties sold for each console affect the percentage? Sure, there is a higher margin of error for smaller sample sizes but they don't even say what the sample sizes are. I do agree that this study may not be completely accurate, but every "study" I've seen shows the failure rates going MS > PS3> Wii.


RE: This only applies to SquareTrade warranties
By Alarchy on 9/3/2009 5:36:52 PM , Rating: 2
Simple - sample size skews them.

If there are only 37 Wii warranties in this study (1 failure in 37 devices, 2.7% failure rate), 60 PS3 warranties (6 failures in 60 devices, 10% failure rate), and 15,863 360 warranties (3760 failures in 15,863 devices, 23.7% failure rate) then which numbers would be more statistically valid based on sample size?

Now I know the "study" is probably not that skewed in terms of sample size, but they make no indication on WHAT their sample size is for each warranty type - so it's impossible to know how accurate their results really are.

I could pick 10 clovers and grab one with four leaves, but does that really mean I have a 10% chance?

That's what I'm getting at.


By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 6:03:20 PM , Rating: 2
And I totally agreed with you on that, but I doubt you read my post that far else you wouldn't have commented as you did.


By richguy15 on 9/4/2009 2:19:31 PM , Rating: 2
Because we often forget the most important control for these types of surveys. The "type" of people involved. Example: the "type" of person who 1) buys a warranty vs. not, 2) chooses an X-Box over a Wii, and 3) Is tech savvy vs. not. Just like the "type" of person who participates in a survey is usually very different from the "type" of person who passes on the survey; in each instance, the "type" of people on each side are usually very different.

Here are two possibilities that make me strongly question the scope of the market sample. First, if we assume the "type" of person who buys a warranty does so because they're less tech savvy, we narrow the prospective sample group. This becomes more of a problem when we realize that someone less tech-savvy is more likely to put the X-Box in a confined space; both hindering airflow and increasing the chance of failure significantly! Now we have a link between people who buy a warranty and an increased failure rate!

And as a second example, I know from my own observations that there is a link between the size and shape of a console and where they are positioned in an entertainment system. For example, since the X-Box is larger, less eye-appealing, and lays flat easily, it's more likely to be stuffed in a cabinet with other components above and below it, behind a door, and in a space much too small for any good airflow. Whereas, since the Wii is oddly shaped and less obtrusive, it's more likely to be left out. The PS3 is also rounded enough that you CAN'T put anything on top of it. Here again we have the heat problem wearing out components faster.

So if you take this argument literally, if a person buys and x-box (example 2) and then buys a warranty (example 1), they're much more likely to make a claim on the warranty than any other "group" (based strictly off my argument, of course).

And please keep in mind, all of this is second to the fact that the company posting these numbers (SquareTrade) benefits directly from making more fantastic claims!

Let's take their claimed time of use vs. failure rate at face value. The average MTBF for the X-Box is 4,106 hours compared to 4,210 hours for the PS3. A 1% difference. If you factor in 1%-3% margin for error, that 1% literally dissapears! Interesting. Especially when you consider that it took Sony 6 months longer to release the PS3. On the other hand, at 7,644 hours MTBF, the Wii wins hands-down for reliability, but that can easily be attributed to the obviously older/less-demanding technology.

In summary, I think each device hits the market it was aimed at just fine. Sony wins with their built-in Blu-Ray player, Microsoft wins with their monthly Live subscription, and Wii wins for the sheer novelty.


By psychobriggsy on 9/4/2009 9:40:07 AM , Rating: 2
Well they do say that the 360 numbers for RROD are probably half of the reality, as many people went straight to Microsoft for the fix instead of through them. They had to poll their customers for this information.

The rest of the figures are probably more reliable than the self-reported figures (the 50%+ ones) however.

We're looking at around a 34% failure rate for the 360 (with the RROD adjustment).


Not "9 Times More Reliable"
By gstrickler on 9/3/2009 11:59:53 AM , Rating: 5
2.7% vs 23.7% failure rate is about 9x, but that's not the same as 9x more reliable. The reliability rate is (1 - failure rate).
Wii = 100% - 2.7% = 97.3% reliable for first 2 years.
Xbox360 = 100% - 23.7% = 76.3% reliable for first 2 years.

97.3% is not 9x 76.3%

It is valid to say that the Xbox360 is about 9x as likely to fail in the first 2 years of ownership as a Wii. However, even that is meaningless until you look at the failure rates. If the Wii failure rate was .0001% and the Xbox360 were .0009%, it's still 9x as likely to fail, but 1 in 100,000 vs 9 is 100,000 is insignificant from an overall reliability perspective.

This is a great example of why it's so easy to mislead using statistics. People (including those reporting them) don't understand statistics, but they do consider them "important".




By gstrickler on 9/3/2009 12:03:55 PM , Rating: 2
Correction, I miscounted my decimal places. .0001% is 1 in 1,000,000 and .0009 is 9 in 1,000,000.


RE: Not "9 Times More Reliable"
By Titanius on 9/3/2009 12:37:37 PM , Rating: 2
"Oh, people can come up with statistics to prove anything. 14% of people know that. "

LOL.


By gstrickler on 9/3/2009 2:43:24 PM , Rating: 2
I thought it was only 10% who knew that.


RE: Not "9 Times More Reliable"
By Noubourne on 9/3/2009 1:33:30 PM , Rating: 2
Nice catch on the reliability angle gstrickler.

I think the article also mentions that 360s are played the most of any console on the market.

It doesn't mention that the software attach rate for the 360 is also the highest - which makes sense, since gamers who play a lot probably aren't playing only one game. Well, not for the 360 or PS3 anyway... ahem.

I think it is probably appropriate to take this a step further and weight the failure rates based on usage.

In my opinion, it's a mistake to compare Wii failure data console-for-console against a 360 or PS3 when data clearly shows that the Wii spent three times as much time gathering dust as a 360 or PS3. If you've clocked 300 hours on your Wii in its lifetime, and comare that to the average 360 owner who's clocked 1500 hours, that's not really a fair comparison.

I'm not trying to defend MS here - just make sure critical factors are accounted for.

I do agree that MS needs to never make this mistake again - but I doubt there's anything I can say that their Accounting department hasn't already told them twice.

Also, I'm not surprised the Wii had a lower failure rate, what with less usage - and also the technology they used was already proven for several years. Both Sony and MS took a risk putting in cutting edge HD hardware. Obviously, Sony trumped MS in that department.


Play time
By vitten on 9/3/2009 11:28:06 AM , Rating: 5
Probably because Wiis are played on 9 times less than a 360 or PS3.

Mine's been gathering dust now for a very long time.




RE: Play time
By kattanna on 9/3/2009 11:37:23 AM , Rating: 2
i have to agree with that. we got both a wii and a 360. the wii hasnt been turned on in months, and, LOL, all we use the 360 for nowadays is the DVD upscaling play back.

me and the wife both just prefer to game on our computers.


RE: Play time
By Motoman on 9/3/09, Rating: 0
RE: Play time
By omnicronx on 9/3/2009 2:20:02 PM , Rating: 2
Haha mine too, I used it all the time in college when I had people at my house 24/7. Now that its just me and my GF it just sits there and collects dust. I always feel so stupid playing the wii by myself, people watching outside from my big bay window must think I am having a seizure or something ;).


Study........right
By tmouse on 9/3/2009 3:24:59 PM , Rating: 2
You have to excuse me if I'm not impressed by a "failure study" produced by a company whose job it is to flog warranties. There was a problem, its fixed, end of story. Is there really still a story in beating this old dead horse? Microsoft screwed up royally in the beginning, the causes are well documented and everyone agrees its probably fixed in the x-boxes available today. The actual numbers are unknown but outside of historical interest what value is there in dredging up this same information in ever so slightly different forms? Is there really nothing else happening in the tech world. So to summarize the story a warrantee company desperately needing some form of advertising produces a "report" that makes the earth shattering news worthy announcement that there were high rates of failures in the early x-boxes, stop the presses. I know it says blog next to your name but I wish DT would keep blogs in the blog column and never put them in the top news story column. If its a blog please put at least some opinion in and provise some worth to the "story".




RE: Study........right
By psychobriggsy on 9/4/2009 10:00:36 AM , Rating: 2
These is a study of the reasons for warranty claims they've received from their own customers.

Until you can prove that owning an extended warranty affects a product's reliability, this is pretty much the most accurate study done so far, with the caveat that the 360 figures, which are already horrific, are still seriously understated (with the real figure likely 11% higher, from the random poll of their customers they did).

Microsoft need to be fined massively for releasing such a duff by design product on the market place, so that they have an incentive to not cut corners next time around. In my opinion the product should have been withdrawn from sale as soon as the problem came to light, until a verified fixed version was ready. Yes, this would have hurt Microsoft and the 360 massively, but in my opinion they were lucky they didn't have to, and instead they chose to massively inconvenience a third of their customers when the RROD occurred.


RE: Study........right
By tmouse on 9/8/2009 7:37:07 AM , Rating: 2
This "study" is simply a tool to keep a dead story alive to help this company sell extended warranties (which by and large are a waste of money). A study that polls biased populations is quite simply useless. Extrapolating this to a larger population is also not valid, since you are by definition looking at a skewed distribution. I'm certain they did not use any form of a posteriori analysis which would be a requirement in this case for ANY validity of this "study". Add to this by their own admission, and the opinions of virtually every other story on this event, that the problem is over in the current units available and the story becomes even more useless. If some form of lawsuit takes off (which is highly unlikely at this point) then there will be a story, until then it would be a favor to everybody not to keep looking for more angles on this old event.
As for fines, they are already paying through the nose and have taken a well derserved status hit which will follow them onto their next platform, case closed.


*Expirence may vary
By Daphault on 9/3/2009 11:32:13 AM , Rating: 2
I know there are multiple examples of 360s failing, and I wouldn't contest that, but my personal experience is different. My Wii has already been in for warranty repair, but my original, release-week 360 has had absolutely zero issues while being used much more often and for much longer durations.




RE: *Expirence may vary
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 6:05:50 PM , Rating: 2
I'm quite curious to know what repairs your Wii needed. Especially since it fell under warranty repair. I'm just curious. We all have different experiences.


Missing a word?
By InvertMe on 9/3/2009 12:21:58 PM , Rating: 2
"While some failures are to be expected with game consoles, it came to years ago that the Xbox 360 was failing at a very significant rate"

Maybe "light" should be there?




RE: Missing a word?
By Noubourne on 9/3/2009 1:38:04 PM , Rating: 2
Why bother. This article doesn't really bring to light anything new...


What the FUD
By amandahugnkiss on 9/3/2009 3:03:05 PM , Rating: 2
"Microsoft, however, has not denied recent reports that the Xbox 360 has a 54.2% lifetime failure rate."

They also did not confirm it, so why the hell do you repeatedly present it like it's a fact? This is nothing but a blatant attempt to create FUD and smear misinformation amongst your readers. How about a tiny bit of integrity and discretion, quit posting information you know is not accurate.




RE: What the FUD
By The0ne on 9/3/2009 3:29:52 PM , Rating: 2
It's poor journalism. It's like reading something in a title and having to guess why it was even included. DT members, like omicronx, of course will quickly point out that one should Google it to find the answers however and shouldn't expect it from the article or references.


I'll tell you why.
By kaoken on 9/3/2009 3:21:16 PM , Rating: 2
The reason why the Wii has such low failure rates is because Wiis are pretty much re-branded Gamecubes which had years to mature its manufacturing process.




RE: I'll tell you why.
By The0ne on 9/3/2009 3:34:03 PM , Rating: 2
While that is in part true to a small extent at the beginning it's been years now since the releases of the consoles. Manufacturing does not stop improving because you're selling. It's always improving, DAILY. And while there is a need to not release multiple revisions of the product (for various reasons) there is a good reason to fix those issues that are problematic, like the 360. But it was a decision MS decided not to pursue until it had gotten worse; most likely for cost reasons.

A good example of this is the PS3 slim due to improved manufacturing and engineering changes.


Reliability
By PublixE on 9/3/2009 2:25:28 PM , Rating: 2
As an owner of a 360 I would like to get that out of the way first...

I don't personally own a WII but I know a few people who do and played some games on it before. The WII doesn't get that hot or loud. So this system was actually engineered quite well. Everyone that has owned a WII that I know of - hasn't had any problems.

I've owned the first 360 Elite - and I never had a problem with it until about 2 weeks left on my warrenty the DVD drive on it failed. Previously my system was running well - it never actually got hot (I kept my 360 away from everything else and had lots of space around and above it.)
I did get a free replacement after contacting MS and sending it in, but i'm not sure what model it is. The Elite I got as a replacement - the power button on it is really hard to press, and doesn't actually make that "clicking" noise/feeling when I press it now. It feels quite solid.

But as far as that goes - I didn't have my 360 for about a month which wasn't too bad. Got a free 1 month gold membership out of it.

As for the games on the consoles - they are all fun in their own sense. I've played the WII and 360 (haven't tried the PS3 yet...so I can't say) and both systems are fun. The WII has some good 15- 20 minute type of games that I can play at lunch time and with my 360 - when I have more time I can rock out with some more involving games like Fallout 3 - Call of Duty World at War or Gears 2...etc).

My point is - to each his own. I had problems with my 360 but that didn't stop me from playing it completely.




HDTV's and Xbox360
By Makaveli on 9/3/2009 8:31:17 PM , Rating: 2
For the record I only spend $1400 on my 46` samsung 120hz 1080p and this was oct of last year! And as for RROD my first gen 360 did it and was fixed in 20mins once I got the parts.

Such a simple fix!! Anyone that considers themselves a real computer enthusiast wouldn't be worried about it.




By KingConker on 9/4/2009 7:50:00 AM , Rating: 2
But at least on the Xbox you get a red ring :)




By mikepers on 9/4/2009 8:24:53 AM , Rating: 2
if you never turn the thing on...

Used the Wii the first month we had it...haven't turned it on since...that was about 1.5 years ago...




Not comparible
By MrUniq on 9/4/2009 10:30:06 AM , Rating: 2
Nintendo has improved with their reliability over the years (I seem to remember quite a few dodgy NES and SNES units back in the day). But given that the Wii is a slight improvement over the gamecube, it's just improved last generation hardware. The manufacturing process was quite mature already. The Xbox 360 used inefficient cooling for their heat generating (current gen) components. While that doesn't excuse Microsoft it's an obvious given why there is a wide gap in reliability.




Nine
By rburnham on 9/4/2009 10:48:58 AM , Rating: 2
In other news, the Xbox 360 is 9 times more fun than the Wii.




What A Load Of Rubbish !
By PoohPall on 9/4/2009 11:29:08 AM , Rating: 2
It is like saying a toaster is more reliable than an industrial oven.

The Wii is NOT in the same league as the PS or 360 - any comparison has no meaning whatsoever.

The Wii is fine for bored housewifes, kiddies and general non-gamers. Why we celebrate mediocrity I really do not know !?!?




And...
By chmilz on 9/3/09, Rating: -1
RE: And...
By xti on 9/3/2009 11:30:19 AM , Rating: 5
can we go one DT article where 'hardcore gamers' dont whine about the wii?


RE: And...
By superflex on 9/3/2009 11:52:54 AM , Rating: 5
Hardcore gamer = Living in mom's basement


RE: And...
By Freezebyte on 9/3/2009 12:38:23 PM , Rating: 5
What a nice, large and incorrect assumption about everyone that games


RE: And...
By bradmshannon on 9/3/09, Rating: 0
RE: And...
By monomer on 9/3/2009 1:40:39 PM , Rating: 5
Hah! My mom doesn't have a basement... I have my computer setup in my tree fort. Sheesh. You and you generalizations.

I used to have a No Girls Allowed sign up here, but that hasn't really ever been a problem lately.


RE: And...
By dark matter on 9/3/09, Rating: -1
RE: And...
By dark matter on 9/4/2009 2:20:49 AM , Rating: 2
Don't worry monomer, plenty other people don't get girls as well by the looks of it.


RE: And...
By Hiawa23 on 9/4/2009 8:35:13 AM , Rating: 2
Hardcore gamer = Living in mom's basement

most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. Alot of us are what one might consider a hardcore gamer, & have our own homes. Honestly, I really don't get into these labels, as I am a gamer, have been since the Atari 2600 days, I love the 360, like the PS3, don't care much for the Wii.

moments later......What determines what kind of gamer you are, & why do some use this to bash the other gamers?


RE: And...
By encryptkeeper on 9/3/2009 5:37:32 PM , Rating: 2
No.


RE: And...
By inperfectdarkness on 9/3/2009 6:40:21 PM , Rating: 2
as nice as that would be...it won't happen.

never mind there are many more wii's on the market than xbox's & ps3's. never mind that even if the wii's were theoretically used twice as much & their failure rates were 3x--it'd still be but a fraction of what the failures that microsoft has bequeathed to its loyal fans.

the ability of forum members here to objectively see & appreciate the successes the wii enjoys (vs. ps3/xbox)--is about as likely as jason mick writing a totally objective piece.

the most amusing thing is watching the loyalists immolate themselves on the altar of their chosen gods--while being raped of their time and finances. and they CONTINUE to do it.

p.s.

if you were really hardcore, you'd be playing FPS's only on a pc--and you'd never once complain about the wii. it's totally non-competitive with that market.


RE: And...
By Roffles on 9/4/2009 1:21:06 AM , Rating: 2
The wii is a glorified monopoly board. Think about that before you huff it up against a real piece of hardware.


RE: And...
By MindParadox on 9/4/2009 4:22:23 AM , Rating: 2
try playing The Conduit on it :P


RE: And...
By PrinceGaz on 9/4/2009 8:56:20 AM , Rating: 2
The Monopoly board game continues to sell very well despite being over 70 years old.


RE: And...
By MindParadox on 9/4/2009 6:14:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
by PrinceGaz on September 4, 2009 at 8:56 AM The Monopoly board game continues to sell very well despite being over 70 years old.


LOL very true :)


RE: And...
By superflex on 9/3/2009 11:33:01 AM , Rating: 1
I love when people defend their idiotic purchases by bashing the competition.
Xbox 360 = Failure


RE: And...
By Visual on 9/3/09, Rating: 0
RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 11:47:41 AM , Rating: 1
...actually, it's more fun to mock the fanbois who try to defend it in spite of it's morbidly bad quality and mind-bending lack of success vs. the Wii.


RE: And...
By BSMonitor on 9/3/2009 1:06:12 PM , Rating: 3
Success of the Wii = Tricking millions of American parents into buying a second rate POS for their spoiled kids...

Name one game worth playing after the first 15 minutes on Wii.. And if you can, it is probably a 360 or PS3 game that you could be playing in high def..

Wii is the equivalent of riding the ferris wheel at your local fair... Its available, its cute, and the kiddies don't know any better...

The 360 and PS3 are Cedar Point or Six Flags.. Once you get on the real deal, you NEVER go back. Enough said...


RE: And...
By Digimonkey on 9/3/2009 1:11:52 PM , Rating: 3
I'm gonna rate you up just for using Cedar Point in an analogy, but I do agree, the wii's game selection is very sub par with only nintendo titles keeping it afloat.


RE: And...
By TomZ on 9/3/2009 1:56:14 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Success of the Wii = Tricking millions of American parents into buying a second rate POS for their spoiled kids...
That might be, but probabably not.

The real reason parents buy Wiis for their kids is because of the large number of "family friendly" games available, especially for younger kids (<10 years). The PS3 and XBOX360 are useless for younger kids, IMO, because of the lack of titles for that age group.


RE: And...
By BSMonitor on 9/3/2009 4:37:30 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The PS3 and XBOX360 are useless for younger kids, IMO, because of the lack of titles for that age group.


... because they do have a selection of games with the word Mario at the beginning of the title.

Finished it for ya!


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 4:41:50 PM , Rating: 1
Is that a failed attempt to flame someone?


RE: And...
By BSMonitor on 9/3/2009 5:10:33 PM , Rating: 2
Hoping for someone to correct it to emphasize my point.


RE: And...
By StevoLincolnite on 9/3/2009 8:05:07 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The real reason parents buy Wiis for their kids is because of the large number of "family friendly" games available, especially for younger kids (<10 years). The PS3 and XBOX360 are useless for younger kids, IMO, because of the lack of titles for that age group.


The "Family Friendly" demographic isn't it at all in my opinion, considering that the Nintendo 64 lost to the PS1 and PS2, and the Gamecube came dead last in the previous generation of consoles, despite those machines being targeted at the family/kid demographic.

I think it's more to do with Parents seeing the Wii as more of an Exercise device, so they are more inclined to buy it if there child gets up and starts flailing around.

However combine the XBox 360 and PS3 sales which most games are cross platform and have very little image quality difference and you will be fairly even to that of the Wii, so the "More hardcore" gamers are equaling the more "Family fun house" gamers.

Mind you I believe "Hardcore" gamers are those with a fully pimped out Case with Crossfire/SLI, and don't get out much.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 2:14:10 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Name one game worth playing after the first 15 minutes on Wii.. And if you can, it is probably a 360 or PS3 game that you could be playing in high def..


Mario Kart
Wii Sports
Tiger Woods
Guitar Hero
Mario Party
Mario Galaxy

...so on and so forth. What you fail to understand is that not everyone in the world *wants* to play a FPS or RPG. In fact, by sales figures, it's quite clear that there are a lot more people willing to buy a console that *don't* want to play Halo than do.

...as for "you can play GH or TW in HD on other consoles" - so what? The graphics in either game aren't going to look better in 1080 than 720. And, the point there being, I'm not going to buy a PS3 to play TW in HD when my Wii can play TW...and all the casual games with the innovative Wiimote that the PS3/Xbox can't.

I, personally, like the vast majority of potential video gamers, have no interest in playing Halo, COD, GTA, FF, or whatever. I do have an interest in the innovative nature of the Wii, and I enjoy playing it's more casual games. These are the reasons why the Wii is wildly more successful than the other 2 consoles.


RE: And...
By walk2k on 9/3/2009 4:04:40 PM , Rating: 3
So, 3 Mario games, a gimmick, and 2 ports.

Exactly.

Wii has the same problem as every other Nintendo console of late, strong 1st party titles, severe lack of 3rd party support. You really think 6 months between compelling releases makes for a good console?

Wake up, it sold a lot because it's CHEAP. That is all.


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 4:19:26 PM , Rating: 2
You should read my post below. There are many other good games as well. I actually didn't even put Red Steel in there.

Sorry we all don't spend $1k plus on our consoles which includes console, accessories, games, and for the 360... online subscription. Ohhh, and I guess I should include a HDTV with that since the 360 and PS3 are pretty crappy without it.


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 4:19:31 PM , Rating: 2
You should read my post below. There are many other good games as well. I actually didn't even put Red Steel in there.

Sorry we all don't spend $1k plus on our consoles which includes console, accessories, games, and for the 360... online subscription. Ohhh, and I guess I should include a HDTV with that since the 360 and PS3 are pretty crappy without it.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 4:23:42 PM , Rating: 3
...whatever dude. That's all I need. I have no desire for any other games at the moment, it works just fine, and you can take your "gimmick" comment and shove it.

...I love how when the Wii does stuff your XBox can't, suddenly it's a "gimmick" instead of a "fun, innovative game."


RE: And...
By walk2k on 9/3/09, Rating: -1
RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 4:40:07 PM , Rating: 3
I find that a very ironic statement considering that the 360/PS3 fanboys are the ones that made the first comments on the Wii centered article.

And raw # of games on the shelf? I think the PS3 comes last then. I have no idea what the actual number of games are. I don't even know if you could find that information, well easily anyway, on the internet. You could go manually count them if you want. I know I was at Walmart just yesterday and they had far more Wii games than PS3, maybe even the 360 as well, but I didn't actually go count them.

And congrats on your Blu-ray player.... ohh wait, I mean PS3. We don't all have $2k to spend on an HDTV and a blu-ray player. And then to buy the more expensive blu-ray movies on top of that. Glad that you do, obviously since you have all 3 consoles, but you're in the vast minority, even though on DT you may be more the average person.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 4:50:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I find that a very ironic statement considering that the 360/PS3 fanboys are the ones that made the first comments on the Wii centered article.


Exactly. It's pretty clear who's ranting and raving around here. It's total fanboy chaos every time an article comes along showing the success of the Wii or the failures of the XBox or whatever.

It really all comes down to the fact that the Wii and the XBox/PS3 aren't intended for the same market. Rabid "harcode" gamer fanbois are not who Nintendo expects to sell Wiis to. Sony doesn't expect to sell PS3s to casual gamers.

A friend of mine is a gourmet chef, effectively (not by profession, but...dude. He could give Wolfgang a run for his money). He has a grill that is mind-blowing, with multiple different cooking areas and an infrared thing and a rotisserie and a broiler and whatever the hell else is on there. I just bought a new grill myself - it has a grill, and fire, and it cooks things. Gourmet chef dude doesn't make fun of my grill, even though it's infinitely inferior to his, because he understands that my grilling needs are a totally different market than his grilling needs.

So all you "hardcore" gamer fanbois just flame off for eff's sake. No one cares what you think of the Wii, because frankly the Wii is not something anyone expects you to be interested in anyway. We all know that it's less technically sophisticated, and we know it doesn't get GTA or Halo, and WE DON'T CARE. It's what we want, which is fundamentally different from what you want - and what you want is fundamentally different from what we want.


RE: And...
By BSMonitor on 9/3/2009 5:40:41 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
It really all comes down to the fact that the Wii and the XBox/PS3 aren't intended for the same market. Rabid "harcode" gamer fanbois are not who Nintendo expects to sell Wiis to. Sony doesn't expect to sell PS3s to casual gamers.


Hmm, yet in previous posts you claim the Wii is wildly more successful... If they are not aimed at the same market, how can this be a valid comparison??

Wii is a novelty. Dave and Busters, a novelty.


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 5:53:29 PM , Rating: 2
I think the world would disagree with your Wii and Dave and Busters are novelty comment. And it really doesn't matter if they are in the same market. I'm quite sure we all agree that the iPod was more successful than the ET: The Extraterrestrial game even though they are in completely separate markets in separate times. Success is usually defined by profitability and market share.

Of course I do believe that the Wii and 360/PS3 are in the same market, gamers, maybe different sections of it, but the same market for sure.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 7:08:14 PM , Rating: 2
It wouldn't bother me a bit if they started tracking them seperately - have a "casual gamer" market seperate from "FPS gamer" market, or something like that.

But the fact of the matter is, like it or not, that they are all being tracked together. Which actually is probably the way it has to be, at least now, because there is no other "casual" console besides the Wii.

Granted that the industry is tracking them all together, it is absolutely a fact that the Wii is wildly more successful. That just boils down to sales volume, and you can't really dispute that.


RE: And...
By wallijonn on 9/8/2009 6:55:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Wake up, it sold a lot because it's CHEAP. That is all.


Remember when the PS3 came out and people were willing to pay $1000 to $2000 for it on EBay?

It may not be that it's cheap, it be be that it was the most affordable. Now that one can buy a 360 Arcade for $200 the demographic may change. Even the PS3 had to come down to $299 to entice more people to buy it. I doubt that it is going to cut into the 360's market share, though since it seems to have a commanding lead. Well, maybe not in Japan since they seem to be more loyal to Japanese brands.

Cheap? Last I looked the PS2 was outselling the PS3. What's the PS2 price right now?, $100? Last Christmas all the GCs were flying off the shelves. It's gaming and it's a recession. People are being tight with their money. Even developers are feeling the pinch. $60 for an 8 hour game? Thanks, I'll rent instead.


RE: And...
By BSMonitor on 9/3/2009 5:05:41 PM , Rating: 1
Thank you for proving my point!

None of the games you listed are worth putting any real amount of time into on the Wii. Are you going to play a 72 hole tourny in Tiger Woods on the Wii? Swinging that stupid remote 300+ times? If I am gonna use those muscles, I might as well just go golfing!!!! Mario Kart.. You are going to hold that wheel out in front of you for how long?? Even 30 minutes? Good luck!

As for Guitar Hero!? You chose a game that took off in popularity because of the 360?? OK!

Mario Party, Mario Galaxy, Mario waxes his Donkey Kong, Mario farting, Mario hunting Yoshi... All crappy gimic games...

And don't even start on Wii Sports... A bowling game that doesn't keep track of even your average?!!? Stats?! Etc.. Wow. No online content...

You have bought the marketing 100% hook, line, and sinker. You, like 95% of Wii owners watch it collect dust playing 30 minutes every other day, while 95% of 360 and PS3 owners are using there machine for hours on end...

Does the fact that more Chevy Malibu's are sold than Chevy Corvette's make the Malibu more successful than the Corvette? In terms of numbers. Yes. In terms of real customer satisfaction and driving experience. Hell no!!!!!

Yes, everyone can have a Wii and feel good that they can potentially play video games at their leisure.. But if you really want to play video games, you get a 360 or PS3.. Plain and simple.


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 5:16:18 PM , Rating: 2
Dude, you fail at failing. in so many ways. First off, GH took off in popularity because of the PS2. Secondly, considering Mario is probably the top selling franchise of all time, with the two games you mention being very highly rated by reviewers and players alike (though I will say Mario Party sequels are getting out of hand), it's hard to say they are gimmicks at all. Thirdly, even the article would show that a very small portion of console owners play "hours on end." With the average not even reaching 20 hours a month that's less than 1 hour a day. And fourth, yes selling more Malibu's and making more money does make the Malibu more successful than the Corvette. No one is saying that it's more powerful than the Corvette, of course not many say the Wii is more powerful than the 360/PS3.


RE: And...
By BSMonitor on 9/3/2009 5:39:27 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Dude, you fail at failing. in so many ways. First off, GH took off in popularity because of the PS2. Secondly, considering Mario is probably the top selling franchise of all time, with the two games you mention being very highly rated by reviewers and players alike (though I will say Mario Party sequels are getting out of hand), it's hard to say they are gimmicks at all. Thirdly, even the article would show that a very small portion of console owners play "hours on end." With the average not even reaching 20 hours a month that's less than 1 hour a day. And fourth, yes selling more Malibu's and making more money does make the Malibu more successful than the Corvette. No one is saying that it's more powerful than the Corvette, of course not many say the Wii is more powerful than the 360/PS3.


Really, there was 1 GH game on the PS2 when the Xbox version came out. Spawning how many flavors now? GH: Van Halen I believe now, who knew...

And how many of those reviewers and players alike started playing Mario games 10-15 years ago... How many times can you possibly shoot a mushroom out Yoshi's ass at the go-kart holding donkey kongs fat a$$ in your life? This is what the 4th version of the SAME GAME!?! This to me is a gimmick.

You admit that there are too many Mario Party games and then say well, it's not a gimmick? What?!

Finally, here we go with your numbers... The market is now flooded with 30 million Wii owners who play their Wii once a week, if that... Of course the numbers now show people who play consoles rarely play!!!

Who said anything about Corvette being more powerful?? If you do not understand the concept of a richer more enjoyable driving experience you clearly have no chance to understand something as simple as a more enjoyable gaming experience on the 360 or PS3...


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 6:01:23 PM , Rating: 2
I never said GH came out on the PS2 first, I said it made it popular. If you don't believe that is true then you sir, are a moron.

Secondly, I don't believe a mushroom has ever come out of Yoshi's ass, but I don't play every Mario game known to man. They aren't all great games. Of course I suppose the Halo series, GTA series, and FF series all have completely different play in all of their games. Yea, some things vary, just like between the Mario Kart games, but they aren't wholly different from one another. And yes, just because I don't like playing essentially the same game 9 times, except this one using motion control, but the game itself is still fun. And yea, Mario Party games really are basically the same, so I could give that one to you, but not Mario Kart.

Third, I'm not sure where you keeping pulling your "facts" from. I can only assume it's from your ginormous ass. If you could show a link saying that 3/5ths, 60%, of Wii owners play once a week I'd gladly walk to your house and just hand you my wallet, money and all. But that's never going to happen.

And lastly, I used powerful to compare the differences between the cars and the consoles. The Corvette is going to have better parts, engine, brakes, steering, etc. Just like the 360/PS3 have a more powerful/better CPU/GPU and likely RAM and HDD as well. I'm sure most people, other than yourself, didn't have that fly right over their head. As for being more enjoyable, that's completely subjective. And no, driving experience is not the same as more enjoyable so it can't be used in an analogy like that.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 7:12:20 PM , Rating: 3
No one cares what to you is a gimmick. To me, all FPS games are the same...does that make every single one of them since Doom a gimmick? There are far too many of those effing things, so therefore they must be gimmicks, right?

Also, no one cares what your judgement is of people who don't play their console more than once a week. What's totally wooshing over your head is that this is the definition of a casual gamer. These are people who *want* simple games, that can be learned in a heartbeat, and you don't have to think much about. This is precisely what this market segment should be doing.


RE: And...
By eddieroolz on 9/3/2009 6:29:43 PM , Rating: 3
I agree. Mario is getting extremely old, about time to kill that poor Italian off. The way Nintendo keeps rehashing old titles is pissing me off dearly.

Super Smash Bros. was good, but with Brawl I feel the gameplay quality went down. Melee for life for me.

In the end, I think the Wii took a step backwards in terms of console evolution. Now that Microsoft and Sony know that subpar game hardware sells so well, where is the motivation to keep innovating going to come from? Certainly not from the millions of customers who bought a Wii.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 7:16:24 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
In the end, I think the Wii took a step backwards in terms of console evolution. Now that Microsoft and Sony know that subpar game hardware sells so well, where is the motivation to keep innovating going to come from? Certainly not from the millions of customers who bought a Wii.


...what that tells Sony and MS is that people value the enjoyability of the system more than the technology under the hood. That is why the Wii is selling like hotcakes. What that proves is that technology for the sake of technology doesn't move the majority of the potential market. Having fun does. People buy the console that they expect will be fun to use. Not the one with the biggest megatexel rating.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 7:47:33 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
None of the games you listed are worth putting any real amount of time into on the Wii.


...says who, you? Why do I, or anyone else, care what you think?

quote:
Are you going to play a 72 hole tourny in Tiger Woods on the Wii?


Sure.

quote:
Swinging that stupid remote 300+ times? If I am gonna use those muscles, I might as well just go golfing!!!!


Ohs noes, did widdle schnukums actually have to move his fat little arms? Oh, the humanity! You do get that one of the LARGEST selling points of the Wii is that you actually do have the opportunity to MOVE while playing it, right? As in...that's why people buy it? Besides, if you're that phsycially inept, use the classic controller. Or, I think, for TW you can do it from the Wiimote without swinging motions. Whatever. Sorry that someone implied you should get off your fat ass and do something once in a while.

quote:
Mario Kart.. You are going to hold that wheel out in front of you for how long?? Even 30 minutes? Good luck!


Gee, thanks. I wished you wished me luck the couple years ago when I started playing MK for, you know, 30 minutes or more at a time. And if your limp little wrists just can't bear to hold the Wiimote in the air, again, you can just use a classic controller. Wouldn't want you to burn any calories or anything.

quote:
As for Guitar Hero!? You chose a game that took off in popularity because of the 360?? OK!


OK! Your point being? You asked me what games I liked playing on the Wii, and GH is one of them. It's fun. I like it. And it would be no better on the 360 or PS3.

quote:
Mario Party, Mario Galaxy, Mario waxes his Donkey Kong, Mario farting, Mario hunting Yoshi... All crappy gimic games...


...as far as I'm concerned, every FPS ever created is the same damn thing. So I hereby declare them all to be gimmicks. Please note, again, that no one gives a rat's ass what you think of anything - including Mario games. Tens of millions (maybe hundreds of millions?) of gamers world wide like them. And they don't care that you don't like them.

quote:
And don't even start on Wii Sports... A bowling game that doesn't keep track of even your average?!!? Stats?! Etc.. Wow. No online content...


No. One. Cares. Although it does track your average, in a way with the little chart thing...not that I care to look at it. Because that's not the point. The Wii isn't about getting all your stats and geeking out over them. It's about mindless fun. Wii Bowling is plenty of mindless fun.

quote:
You have bought the marketing 100% hook, line, and sinker. You, like 95% of Wii owners watch it collect dust playing 30 minutes every other day, while 95% of 360 and PS3 owners are using there machine for hours on end...


First of all, you're conflating the Wii with Apple. Secondly, and once again, you have totally missed the entire concept of CASUAL GAMER. The people who buy Wiis DON'T WANT to play a video game for hours on end. THEY DON'T WANT TO. They want easy to learn, easy to play video games they can just pick up and drop off any time they want. People using their Wii 30 minutes a day is EXACTLY what this market segment SHOULD be doing.

quote:
Does the fact that more Chevy Malibu's are sold than Chevy Corvette's make the Malibu more successful than the Corvette? In terms of numbers. Yes. In terms of real customer satisfaction and driving experience. Hell no!!!!!


First, all measures of success will show the Malibu is more successful than the Vette. Very few people are interested in, or have the money for, a Vette compared to the Malibu. Despite the fact that the Vette is superior in every way (except probably cargo space, I guess). Malibu = casual/practical driver. Vette = driving enthusiast. 2 different markets.

quote:
Yes, everyone can have a Wii and feel good that they can potentially play video games at their leisure.. But if you really want to play video games, you get a 360 or PS3.. Plain and simple.


The first sentance here is the effing point man! That is EXACTLY the point. Capital T Truth. You should have stopped there. Your second setance serves no purpose other to prove that you missed the point you just made - the people who buy the Wii don't want an Xbox or a PS3, and they don't want to play those kinds of games, and they don't want to play for hours on end every day of the week.

How is it possible that you just don't get this?


RE: And...
By StevoLincolnite on 9/3/2009 8:26:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
...says who, you? Why do I, or anyone else, care what you think?


Says the Statistics on the hours spent playing each console.

quote:
Ohs noes, did widdle schnukums actually have to move his fat little arms? Oh, the humanity! You do get that one of the LARGEST selling points of the Wii is that you actually do have the opportunity to MOVE while playing it, right? As in...that's why people buy it? Besides, if you're that phsycially inept, use the classic controller. Or, I think, for TW you can do it from the Wiimote without swinging motions. Whatever. Sorry that someone implied you should get off your fat ass and do something once in a while.


And roll on Project Natal...

quote:
Gee, thanks. I wished you wished me luck the couple years ago when I started playing MK for, you know, 30 minutes or more at a time. And if your limp little wrists just can't bear to hold the Wiimote in the air, again, you can just use a classic controller. Wouldn't want you to burn any calories or anything.


Now your just being condescending.

quote:
OK! Your point being? You asked me what games I liked playing on the Wii, and GH is one of them. It's fun. I like it. And it would be no better on the 360 or PS3.


1) DLC - Allot of tracks available quickly and easily, with the storage drives to hold them.

2) Graphics Quality, significantly improved on the PS3/360.

3) Sound Quality, lets face it, Sound using your bog-standard RCA cables doesn't compete with an Optical Audio/HDMI set-up. - It's a music game after all.

quote:
...as far as I'm concerned, every FPS ever created is the same damn thing. So I hereby declare them all to be gimmicks. Please note, again, that no one gives a rat's ass what you think of anything - including Mario games. Tens of millions (maybe hundreds of millions?) of gamers world wide like them. And they don't care that you don't like them.


I suppose this goes both ways?
Real Games are played on the PC however.

quote:
First of all, you're conflating the Wii with Apple. Secondly, and once again, you have totally missed the entire concept of CASUAL GAMER. The people who buy Wiis DON'T WANT to play a video game for hours on end. THEY DON'T WANT TO. They want easy to learn, easy to play video games they can just pick up and drop off any time they want. People using their Wii 30 minutes a day is EXACTLY what this market segment SHOULD be doing.


The Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3 target the "Casual Gamer" with... You guessed it! Arcade games like Zuma, Uno etc'.

quote:
The first sentance here is the effing point man! That is EXACTLY the point. Capital T Truth. You should have stopped there. Your second setance serves no purpose other to prove that you missed the point you just made - the people who buy the Wii don't want an Xbox or a PS3, and they don't want to play those kinds of games, and they don't want to play for hours on end every day of the week.


Or perhaps they fell into the Marketing pitch that was given to them? Take for instance Every "Kid" I know would rather play on my Xbox 360 over there Wii. (Having over 40 games doesn't help either, so there is always something different to play).
Heck even the Parents after buying the Wii wished they got the Xbox 360 and grabbed Arcade games off Xbox Live!

The fact of the matter is, it's a GAMES MACHINE, there is NO way around that fact, and what is the primary purpose of a Games Machine? To play games.
If you cannot find yourself getting hooked in an engrossing story line, or great game mechanics then the games have failed, I love grabbing a game, getting into the story then discovering I have to "Get up" and go to work, the point is to loose track of time in a unique artistic and enjoyable world.

Admittedly, because of the lack of pure horse power on the Wii, games have instead gone for a more "Artistic" approach with game design which works really well.

Another issue I found is with my Xbox 360 connected up to a standard CRT TV, it simply looked like crap, most games are optimized for HD on the console, and it's hard to read writing on the screen from a distance, the Wii however doesn't have this issue.

All the current Gen consoles are Great, the Wii is decent, the games suck, the Xbox 360 has a high failure rate, the PS3 out-right is to expensive and lacks many exclusives.

And the PC still has decades worth of games you can run, and can also emulate other platforms and there games, but is exorbitantly expensive to upgrade to "1337" levels of performance hardware.

All in all, get a clue and stop getting nasty and personal.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 8:55:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Says the Statistics on the hours spent playing each console.


Again, again, again...CASUAL gamers. Please stop missing that point. They categorically DO NOT WANT to play for hours on end.

quote:
And roll on Project Natal...


...what?

quote:
Now your just being condescending.


Yes. And?

quote:
1) DLC - Allot of tracks available quickly and easily, with the storage drives to hold them. 2) Graphics Quality, significantly improved on the PS3/360. 3) Sound Quality, lets face it, Sound using your bog-standard RCA cables doesn't compete with an Optical Audio/HDMI set-up. - It's a music game after all.


1) Same thing is on the Wii.
2) For GH? Don't think so. And don't care.
3) Orly? I sincerely invite you to come over and play on my 67" HDTV with the 7.1 surround sound via Klipsch audio speakers and let me know what you think of the sound quality. My ears aren't exactly oscilloscopes, but to me the sound I get in GH is indistinguishable from a CD. Until I miss a note.

quote:
I suppose this goes both ways?


Only if we both want to be stupid enough to declare everything to be gimmicks. I was being sarcastic.

quote:
Real Games are played on the PC however.


Interesting. And what makes a game a "Real Game?" I thought a "real game" was a game that you played, and enjoyed, because it was fun. Maybe I'm mistaken. For the record, I use my PC for gaming more. Currently, though, "more" pretty much boils down to WoW when I have time.

quote:
The Xbox 360 and the Playstation 3 target the "Casual Gamer" with... You guessed it! Arcade games like Zuma, Uno etc'.


...so why aren't they competing well in that market? Hmmm...probably because they don't have Wiimotes, they don't have Wii Sports, and they cost too much. I think that covers it. It is easily demostrable that the XBox and PS3 simply don't compete, at all, for casual gamer business.

...as for the rest of your post, I'm not honestly sure where you're going. "Kids" I take it tend to be more "hardcore" gamers who want to play GTA and Halo. Knock yourselves out. The Wii isn't for you. If you like your PS3, then rock on - but why the eff do you feel compelled to try to belittle Wii consumers? Wii buyers, who are much more numerous than "hardcore" gamers, DO NOT WANT to play the games that are available on the XBox and PS3. They are not interested in those consoles. Hence, they don't buy them. They buy the console that IS interseting to them, and which DOES have the games they want to play - which is the Wii.

So WTF?


RE: And...
By StevoLincolnite on 9/3/2009 10:45:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Again, again, again...CASUAL gamers. Please stop missing that point. They categorically DO NOT WANT to play for hours on end.


I did explain this in my previous post.

quote:
...what?


Think of it as interacting with your games without using any controllers at all, just hand gesture and body movements, as well as voice recognition, not only is it more advanced than the Wii Mote technologically but it should be interesting to see how it all works.

quote:
1) Same thing is on the Wii. 2) For GH? Don't think so. And don't care. 3) Orly? I sincerely invite you to come over and play on my 67" HDTV with the 7.1 surround sound via Klipsch audio speakers and let me know what you think of the sound quality. My ears aren't exactly oscilloscopes, but to me the sound I get in GH is indistinguishable from a CD. Until I miss a note.


1) The Wii has limited flash memory storage, there are several gigabytes worth of tracks that can be downloaded. - Good luck.

2) You don't think so? So the Inclusion of a Higher Resolution, the addition of Anti-Aliasing and sharper textures is something you cannot notice? Especially on a HDTV? Are you freaking blind as well as stupid?

3) Sure, provided you were in driving distance, However I have a 57" LCD with a full 7.1 sound system, Xbox connects to the TV via HDMI and the TV connects to my sound system via Optical Audio. - Sounds great.

Audio buffs would generally hear the sound differences between the Wii and the Xbox 360 when it came to music reproduction. (Well I guess that makes you deaf to!)

quote:
Only if we both want to be stupid enough to declare everything to be gimmicks. I was being sarcastic.


Ah, I thought you were showing everyone the pinnacle of your great intellect.

quote:
Interesting. And what makes a game a "Real Game?" I thought a "real game" was a game that you played, and enjoyed, because it was fun. Maybe I'm mistaken. For the record, I use my PC for gaming more. Currently, though, "more" pretty much boils down to WoW when I have time.


Depends on how you perceive a "Real Game". - Varies from person to person, hence yours is WoW (Or Mario!), mine is more along the lines of Call of Duty or Battlfield 1943 on the Xbox 360, while others swear by Crysis on the PC.

quote:
...so why aren't they competing well in that market? Hmmm...probably because they don't have Wiimotes, they don't have Wii Sports, and they cost too much. I think that covers it. It is easily demostrable that the XBox and PS3 simply don't compete, at all, for casual gamer business. ...as for the rest of your post, I'm not honestly sure where you're going. "Kids" I take it tend to be more "hardcore" gamers who want to play GTA and Halo. Knock yourselves out. The Wii isn't for you. If you like your PS3, then rock on - but why the eff do you feel compelled to try to belittle Wii consumers? Wii buyers, who are much more numerous than "hardcore" gamers, DO NOT WANT to play the games that are available on the XBox and PS3. They are not interested in those consoles. Hence, they don't buy them. They buy the console that IS interseting to them, and which DOES have the games they want to play - which is the Wii. So WTF?


Because Nintendo aren't competing with Microsoft in the Arcade games, they only have the previous backlog of games that were on the older systems, and for the record they are selling extremely well.

Project Natal if it ends up being as good as I have seen from the demos it will make the Wii mote look like a Plastic light saber.

And for the record I am not "belittling" Wii owners, you have become an antagonistic, simple minded moron who needs a smack in the head to realize the crap your talking about, seriously wake up!

REMEMBER XBOX 360 and the PS3 are more CROSSPLATFORM when it comes to there games, COMBINED they EQUAL the WII, Combine the PC and you have more "Hardcore" gamers than "Casual Gamers". - THUS they obviously ARE INTERESTED IN THEM THAT IS MY ENTIRE POINT!

Xbox 360 = 31 Million.
PS3 = 24.6 Million
Wii = 52.62 Million.

Now for some simple math.

31 Million + 24.6 Million = 55.6 Million. - OMG THATS MORE SOLD THAN THE WII AT 52.62 Million! Amazing huh?

Now do you understand? Have I enlightened you a bit more? If not, please read my post again.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 11:21:21 PM , Rating: 2
No, all you've done is solidified your position as an ass. I'm just gonna go with that, in light of the empirical evidence available that indicates I am not stupid, deaf, or blind as you imply...and also that you apparently just can't stand the fact that people buy the Wii because they like the Wii and they don't in any way, shape, or form want anything else.

You want someone to wake up, smell the coffee pal. Step. Off.


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/4/2009 1:20:04 AM , Rating: 3
I have to agree with Motoman in every way. No, you didn't explain anything in your previous post, unless "Statics say otherwis" is your explanation. In which case I call you a dumbass since the the stats don't say ANYTHING about casual gamers. In fact, the first time casual or hardcore is even mentioned is in a user post.

Well, we haven't heard much out of project natal yet. It could be good, but it could also turn out to be utter garbage and way overpriced. We haven't heard, or even seen, enough about it to make a decision yet. It certainly wouldn't be the first time a teaser video was given to us.

Yes, the 360 has more space than the stock Wii, provided you get at least the Pro. However, unlike the 360 the Wii can use any SD card on the market. And if you can notice the graphics difference in something as simple as GH then you are in the select few, easily less than .1% of the console population, that would ever notice something like that. And yet again, you would be in less than 1% of the population that would notice the difference in sound quality. Obviously people would notice the difference between mono, or even stereo, and theater quality sound, but that's not the difference we are talking about, is it? We also don't have the thousands of $ to spend on that kind of AV equipment, do we? Actually, given many circumstances I doubt many audio buffs would notice the difference, but it's not something I would put my money one since I'm no audio buff.

Could only agree with your definition of "Real game" if you were talking about the original COD.... but I don't think that you are. I'm sure Battlefield 1943 will be a let down just like the other post BF1942 games. And the only people who swear by Crysis are those who are graphics whores. Which is hardly the general population.

I highly doubt natal will be as good as the demos, but I'll hold my final judgment until reviewers get it into their hands. And actually, you are trying to belittle Wii owners when you talk the way you do. You seem to think that the absolute best is the only option, being either 360 or PS3, and that the Wii has no place in anyone's home. I don't know how else you could think that's not belittling Wii owners.

I also find it very odd that you compare the 360 AND PS3 when it comes to cross-platform games. That is usually the reason why many people turn away from a certain console, be that the Wii, 360, PS3, or even computer. If all the games you want on one console are on other then there is no point in buying the first console anymore.

And I'm sure you're very last "point" is that the Wii doesn't own half the market, but 49% is very close. You are technically right, but come on. If you're going to argue semantics (sp?) as one of many points then you probably don't have any concrete evidence, or are just plain pathetic. Though I'm saying that's fact.


RE: And...
By R3T4rd on 9/8/2009 7:42:29 AM , Rating: 2
Um...I just had to comment...really.

Motoman/Alexstarfire > StevoLincolnite

/* StevoLincolnite */

Pwned!!!....


RE: And...
By TSS on 9/3/2009 2:29:54 PM , Rating: 2
succes of the wii = the casual gamer who doesn't want to play more then 15 minutes anyway.

the only game on the wii i, as hardcore gamer, have played for weeks is DBZ budokai tenchaici 3 (or something like that). I thought it was a nice game but it really suprised me with how deep it goes. The controls are accurate and graphics look good, too (if you don't mind jaggies).

Trying to beat the hardest survival (49 rounds and end boss) with wii motion controls isn't easy. you get quite the workout.

But killzone 2 alone gave me enough "frags" to put it that way to surpass the wii entirely. And even that game has got nothing on metal gear solid 4. And even then i've got burnout paradise and street fighter 4 to back it up.

Simply different markets. But the Wii still beats out both the PS3 and Xbox360 if you look at succes in their own respective markets. The wii has all of the casual market (while even the PS3 and Xbox 360 have made attempts) While the hardcore market is split between 2 devices which are still pretty much evenly matched.


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 3:53:01 PM , Rating: 2
I've got a question, what makes something hardcore?


RE: And...
By dark matter on 9/3/2009 3:58:34 PM , Rating: 4
Its what teenage lads say to themselves whilst sat on the arses with a joypad in the hands to make themselves feel better.

Nothing 'hardcore' about being sat in front a TV/LCD really.


RE: And...
By eddieroolz on 9/3/2009 6:34:51 PM , Rating: 2
And it also includes person(s) trying to spread their stereotypical nonsense about gamers to the world...

Yes, you cannot have typed that post unless you were sitting in front of an LCD. All you need is a gamepad to make yourself into a teenage lad.


RE: And...
By dark matter on 9/4/2009 2:25:47 AM , Rating: 2
Wow! All I need is a gamepad to become a teenager again! Ahh, if only it were that simple.

BTW, I was not slating gamers I was slating the use of the word "hardcore". The average age of a gamer is 35. Hopefully that at age they wouldn't dream of calling themselves "hardcore"


RE: And...
By danieleK on 9/4/2009 7:58:07 AM , Rating: 2
From Wikipedia:

Hardcore gamer is a widely used term applied to describe a type of video game player. There is currently no unanimously agreed upon definition for the term (see Usage section). Some describe hardcore gamers as those whose leisure time is largely devoted to playing or reading about video games. This type of gamer prefers to take significant time and practice on games, in contrast to a casual gamer. Many hardcore gamers pride themselves on mastering the rules or use of a game, although this is not a strict requirement. Conflicting opinion argues that it is not so much the time spent on games however, as casual gamers can spend hundreds of hours on games without ever mastering them.

Nintento's Charlie Scibetta said "They're usually the early adopters that want to get the latest version of something, and they'll be the ones that put it through its paces the hardest and give us all kind of feedback and tell us what they like and don't like.


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/4/2009 10:22:00 AM , Rating: 2
Well, guess I'm at least one hardcore Wii player. Not so much at the moment since I'm lacking in the funds department.


RE: And...
By inighthawki on 9/3/2009 3:32:23 PM , Rating: 2
Metroid Prime 3?


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 4:13:16 PM , Rating: 3
....and

Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World
Zelda: Twilight Princess
Super Smash Brothers Brawl
Trauma Center: Second Opinion
Trauma Center: New Blood

and several others. Too bad I suck at Trauma Center. I found that out when I played with my friend. Damn he was good. I've heard Fire Emblem Radiant Dawn is supposed to be very good but I haven't played it. Only reason I don't really play my Wii is lack of money. I've gone through over a dozen games since I've had this console, basically since launch.

Yes, the Wii does have a lot of crap titles. Like games from movies and TV shows, which is probably a little over half the selection. And about half of what's left is kiddy games. But people act like the 360 and PS3 have ONLY good games on them which simply isn't true. Halo and COD I think are junk, cept for the first one in each series. Personal opinion though. There are games I've like to play on the 360 and PS3, but the Wii just had more games that I was going to play in the long run. That and several games I want to play on the 360 and PS3 would be imports.

And yea, Nintendo might make most of the good games for the Wii, but what would you have them do? They can't force others to make great games for the console. After this generation I'm sure many of the 2nd and third party developers will want to make better games for Nintendo's next console based on how well this one did.


RE: And...
By Hyperion1400 on 9/3/2009 5:23:42 PM , Rating: 2
No More Heroes


RE: And...
By weskurtz0081 on 9/3/2009 12:09:43 PM , Rating: 2
RE: And...
By KingstonU on 9/3/2009 1:19:52 PM , Rating: 4
Correction:

XBOX 360 Hardware = Failure. As a business model, it has the most success of all: it sells more games / has the highest attachment rating.


RE: And...
By dark matter on 9/3/2009 3:56:58 PM , Rating: 2
Compared to Nintendos' business model Microsofts' sucks. Microsoft lots shedloads of money on the failure rate and only just broke even not so long ago.

Whereas the wii made money on every console sold and has sold more consoles worldwide than the PS3 + XBOX360 put together. I don't know what world you live in but if you asked the shareholders who had the best business model with regards to consoles, Nintendo or Microsoft, take a guess which one they would say.


RE: And...
By eddieroolz on 9/3/2009 6:37:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
only just broke even not so long ago.


Source or it didn't happen.


RE: And...
By Iaiken on 9/3/2009 11:35:02 AM , Rating: 4
360's die because of incompetent engineering of the thermal packaging on both the CPU and GPU. Yet even more incompetently, MS still hasn't completely fixed the issue all these years later.

It's so bad, people are actually buying extended warranties on them and it's paying off!


RE: And...
By clovell on 9/3/2009 12:01:59 PM , Rating: 3
Oh really? Look at the graph, Professor, and tell me - how big is the gap between the Falcon 360's and the PS3?


RE: And...
By clovell on 9/3/09, Rating: 0
RE: And...
By Mitch101 on 9/3/2009 1:55:10 PM , Rating: 3
I did a lot of searching for RROD issues on Jasper because I would like a 360 for the netflix option. While I couldnt find extensive information on Jasper failure rates the information I could find pointed to the numbers being very low. 3-5% failure rate on the Jasper.

The main culprits with the console RROD issue being the materials used, heat, time, and a clip that doesnt apply enough pressure on the GPU and in some cases the CPU which eventually the GPU/CPU separates from the contacts on the mobo because the mobo warps from the heat.

# 1 Xenon - All will most likely die because of clip and heat.
# 2 Zephyr - All will most likely die because of clip and heat.
# 3 Falcon - Should Last longer but Clip and Heat but over time will kill unit.
# 4 Opus - Non HDMI version of Falcon. Replacement for Xenon systems sent in for repair.
# 5 Jasper - I hear is 3-5% failure rates when talking to Best Buy employees on seen returns.
# 6 Valhalla - Rumored but GPU and CPU on same chip but I'm not sure this will ever happen and if it does maybe not until 2011.

While I hate to admit it I talked to two geeks at Best Buy who can tell the difference on the 360 consoles and of the two I spoke to who know what the Jasper is one said maybe 3-5% the other said he only saw one Jasper come back with an issue. Not sure how either could gauge how one could say 3-5% without knowing how many were sold but it tells me that they aren't seeing many Jaspers come back. One did say that some people come in saying how they got a Jasper and thought this RROD issue was solved but the geek says they really have a Falcon and think its a Jasper.

If you figure nearly every Xenon and Zephyr will fail because of the design issue and add in the much improved fail rate of Falcon and Opus you get a very high failure rate. Only recently do we have the Jasper dropping those failure rate numbers.

Im starting to believe that the recent press release about the 360 failure rates and screaming about it might be coming from Sony's PR department as their latest or last ditch tactic to try and get PS3 sales up and I really couldn't blame them for doing it if they are behind this. After all it worked for Apple with bashing Microsoft. The RROD issue isn't completely resolved but it is certainly significantly lower than what it was some time ago and it looks like Jasper is at acceptable failure rates with the other consoles. Jasper has only been around what not even a year but you get a 3 year warranty on the RROD issue thanks to previous generation issues.

Now why havent I bought a PS3 or 360? Because I looked at the family games for both consoles and they both fail for family games. The only game I am excited over is Little Big World. The rest are about the same as I can get on the PS2 and Original X-Box. Lego Star Wars was out on the Original X-Box. Sort on family games on the Wii and you get well over 100 titles. Family titles for both the PS3 and Xbox 360 is pathetic. I want a next gen console but cant justify it just for Netflix. Looks like I might miss an entire console generation.

The kids are happy with thier DS's. Im still happy with the Original X-Box and PS2.


RE: And...
By clovell on 9/3/2009 4:13:36 PM , Rating: 2
Nice info - yeah, I never found much for the PS3 and 360 in the way of family games. With the Wii, my kids loved playing / watching Harvest Moon with all the animals.


RE: And...
By StevoLincolnite on 9/3/2009 8:35:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now why havent I bought a PS3 or 360? Because I looked at the family games for both consoles and they both fail for family games. The only game I am excited over is Little Big World. The rest are about the same as I can get on the PS2 and Original X-Box. Lego Star Wars was out on the Original X-Box. Sort on family games on the Wii and you get well over 100 titles. Family titles for both the PS3 and Xbox 360 is pathetic. I want a next gen console but cant justify it just for Netflix. Looks like I might miss an entire console generation.


Try looking at the Arcade games on the PS3/Xbox 360 you might be surprised how accessible some of those are, and how enjoyable. (And cheap.)


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/4/2009 1:23:51 AM , Rating: 2
Arcade != family, just FYI. I'm sure some of them overlap however.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 11:52:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
360's die because they are played to death by gamers.


First of all, grammar check please.

Secondly, 360s die because of poor design.

Thirdly, Wiis are ridiculously popular because they appeal to people who have no interest in traditional console gaming...flame out all you want to about how jawsome your XBox or PS3 is, the fact of the matter is that your market group is very, very small. I'd say, roughly, 1/9th of the market group that is interested in video gaming, but not in an Xbox or PS3.

Does that include some fat girls who wind up not using it? Sure. But note that the fat girl would not have ever even bought an Xbox. Why? Because an XBox/PS3 doesn't appeal, at all, to the vast majority of people who may be interested (even slightly) in video gaming.


RE: And...
By chick0n on 9/3/2009 12:14:16 PM , Rating: 2
maybe because people who got Wii for partying only? and seriously when was the last time people had a party at your place ?

Wii is going down right now because of what? Lack of system power(we know that BEFORE it came out), and the deadliest point ----- it has nothing but GARBAGE games.

There was a report that came out not long ago saying that most people who got a Wii did NOT buy any other games. They got it because "oh people said its cool, and it LOOKs fun", not because they're not traditional console gaming group.

I got Wii, Xbox, and PS3. and no I dont live in my mom's basement. and my wii has been collecting dust for almost 2 years. why? cuz the system is shit. the games are shit. I got it because I was hoping that it might have something good. Guess I was wrong.

This research should include "How often do the owners turn their system on", I will say Xbox is the top spot, PS3 next, then PS2, then Wii. LOL !


RE: And...
By gstrickler on 9/3/2009 12:33:05 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Lack of system power(we know that BEFORE it came out), and the deadliest point ----- it has nothing but GARBAGE games.
And those "garbage" games are the reason it has sold over 50M units. Just because they're not the type of games you prefer, doesn't mean they're garbage. Obviously, more people like those games than like the PS3 & Xbox360 games.

They're mostly different markets, casual gamers and hardcore gamers, with a small overlap between them. Comparing the Wii or Wii games to Xbox360 or PS3 is about as useful as comparing a Toyota to Porsche and Ferrari. Different vehicles targeted at different buyers.


RE: And...
By Motoman on 9/3/2009 12:41:08 PM , Rating: 3
Exactly.

And for the "when was the last time we had a party at our place" comment - I presume you are trying to infer that we are unpopular and have no friends. The fact of the matter is, the Wii gets it's most use when we have friends come over...which is typically 2-3 times a week. Not a lot. Usually just 2. Which is handy, since 4 people is all you can have playing one of the excellent games that are available for the Wii.


RE: And...
By chick0n on 9/3/2009 2:22:43 PM , Rating: 2
You might want to check what kind of Games did Wii sell.

MOST Wii owners never even bought a game ---- they just play the one that came with the Wii ---- which is Wii Sports.

If you want to count that as "copies sold" then so be it.


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 4:32:32 PM , Rating: 1
Got a source for that, or just making shit up? And any copy of a game that gets into the consumers hands counts as a copy sold. You act like Sony, Microsoft, Sega, and all the other console makers of the years have never done that. And they aren't the only ones to package games/movies with their products either.

And while it says that the 360 and PS3 get used twice as much, I really wonder how the systems compare when they reduce it to playing games, or even to just what the Wii can do. Cause the 360 and PS3 can be used as media centers while the Wii can not, and watching movies from your console will boost your time usage by quite a bit. Just saying it's not really apples to apples.


RE: And...
By gstrickler on 9/3/2009 4:57:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You might want to check what kind of Games did Wii sell.
It doesn't matter what you think of the games sold, you're clearly not the target buyer for a Wii. Get an Xbox360 and/or PS3 and stop bashing the Wii.
quote:
MOST Wii owners never even bought a game ---- they just play the one that came with the Wii ---- which is Wii Sports.
Dead wrong. See my reply (to another comment on this article) about software tie rates. They're not significantly different for Xbox 360 (7.2-8.1), Wii (6.2-7.2), and PS3 (6.5).
quote:
If you want to count that as "copies sold" then so be it.
The 50M is consoles sold, not games. The Wii tie rate as of March 2009 was 6.2, which is 310M games sold (not counting the 50M Wii Sports games included with the consoles). That's at least 83% (over 96% if you count Wii Sports) of the number of games sold for Xbox360 and PS3 combined, even though the 360 has been out for 12 months.


RE: And...
By someguy123 on 9/3/2009 1:07:44 PM , Rating: 2
the wii is "going down" because everyone owns one. there are 50 million wii's out there already, which is almost as much as the ps3 and 360 total sales combined.

not sure why you pointed out the lack of system power, because everyone knew this and it still sold better than both consoles. kind of an argument against putting in that type of hardware when innovation sells more at a higher profit margin.


RE: And...
By chick0n on 9/3/2009 2:28:49 PM , Rating: 2
everyone knew this? ROFL

that simply means you dont know what you are talking about.

Ask most Wii owners what they know about their Wii and PS3 and 360.

my friend told me Her Wii has more power than my PS3 cuz it can do "motion detection" LMAO ! when I show her how my Dual Shock 3 works she was totally speechless. oh and dont make me bring those DVD and Blu Ray and media station I can do with my PS3. LOL !

Wii is going down. and it will be faster than you know it. Just give it another 2-3 years. Will see who is right.


RE: And...
By karielash on 9/3/09, Rating: 0
RE: And...
By someguy123 on 9/3/2009 3:01:46 PM , Rating: 2
most wii owners I know have a ps3 or 360 as well. if you were at the first E3 showing the line to test the wii was filled with basically everyone at the show.

people knew about the graphics, but they bought it anyway, and it's still the best selling console right now oddly enough even though it's selling much worse than the years past.


RE: And...
By dark matter on 9/3/2009 4:03:49 PM , Rating: 2
This obsession with xbox/ps3 owners having a far more powerful console merely says to "insecure".

Kind of the way middle aged men go through a mid life crisis and decide to buy harley davidsons and think they can pull 18 year olds again.


RE: And...
By gstrickler on 9/4/2009 11:11:36 AM , Rating: 2
I think you'll find that Wii sales have declined for 3 reasons:

1. The economy. That varies by country, but the financial industry problems and US originated problems are having worldwide effects. People don't have as much disposable income right now.

2. At 50M units, the Wii has probably reached a critical point in saturation where sales will slowly fall for years. However, not everyone who wants one has one (me for example), so the market is not yet saturated. Much like the PS2, it may still be selling 100K+ units/mo when it's 10 years old.

3. The Xbox360 price dropped about a year ago. Given the above, people have been expecting Sony and Nintendo to respond with price cuts on the PS3 and Wii. Now that the PS3 price finally dropped, people are waiting for a price cut on the Wii. I hope we'll see it before the Christmas shopping season, but I suspect Nintendo may hold out until Feb 2010 before dropping the price on the Wii.

When Nintendo does lower the price on the Wii (to $199, maybe less), sales will pick up to around 2x those of the Xbox360.

Side note: The PS3 Slim will definitely help with PS3 sales. The slimmer design, lower power/less heat, and lower price are all great improvements. It's not only cheaper to buy, it's cheaper to operate. That will help Sony's sales this Christmas season. I'm just not sure it will be enough to gain any significant ground on the Xbox360 or the Wii in the long term.


RE: And...
By check on 9/3/2009 5:17:56 PM , Rating: 1
First of all, you're a douche bag. It's the internet, who cares about grammar.

Secondly, where do you get this bullshit 1/9th statistic from? Don't pull number out of your ass if you can't support them.

Also, if you are talking about the "casual gamer" when you are speaking of people with no interest in traditional console gaming then I would say to you that nobody gives a shit about this group of people. It is a well known fact that companies lose money on each console sold and they rely on video game purchases to make a profit. So if you are a casual gamer who only picks up a game here or there, MS, Sony, and Nintendo could give a shit about you.


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 5:40:56 PM , Rating: 2
It's also a well known fact that Nintedo has been making money off the Wii since it launched. Just because MS and Sony lost money, and a lot of it, doesn't mean that everyone does.

Of course you probably don't research things before you start talking smack, so you're just another dumb kiddy that we all get to put in our ignore/block list.


RE: And...
By Hiawa23 on 9/3/2009 3:20:46 PM , Rating: 2
the 360 has atleast 9x's more games I want to play. Honestly, is this a surprise to anyone? I have a launch 360 that was repaired in June 08, fine since, & a 3/2008 hdmi model that has had no issues. I haven't even turned on the Wii in 4 or 5 months. I think we all agree, it's ashame MS allowed this to happen, but what do you do? It has the games & online structure I prefer.


RE: And...
By Alexstarfire on 9/3/2009 4:44:40 PM , Rating: 2
Yea, and so does my computer, for the most part, and it hasn't failed on me forcing to either buy a new one or send it in for repair. I like my FPS games on my computer thank you very much.


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