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Microsoft CEO describes Xbox 360 $1B charge as "painful"

Following reports showing that up to one-third of all Xbox 360 consoles are afflicted with the fatal hardware error termed the “Red Ring of Death,” Microsoft extended its warranty on the machine to cover such a defect for three years.

Although the gaming press has heard many comments from Microsoft’s Entertainment and Devices Division regarding its new policies, little has come out from the giant software company’s top brass.

Speaking to financial analysts last week, Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer spoke out on the topic on stage, saying, “We have to learn from our mistakes. It was painful to announce the write-off that we had to announce, and yet we knew we had to take care of our customers.”

The write-off that Ballmer is referring to is the over $1 billion charge that Microsoft’s entertainment division is taking to not only repair for free all afflicted consoles, but also to issue refunds to gamers who have paid up to $140 for a fix.

The extended coverage of defective Xbox 360 consoles caused Microsoft’s gaming division to lose $1.89 billion for the quarter – about 47 percent more than the previous period’s $1.28 billion loss from last year.

Although the Xbox 360 “Red Ring of Death” debacle may have shaken consumer confidence in the company’s ability to design and manufacture hardware, Ballmer promised that, going forward, Microsoft will be “world-class when we do hardware.”

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World class already
By Lonyo on 7/30/2007 7:50:42 AM , Rating: 5
World class on warranties.
Hopefully they can transfer that to the hardware as well. It's glad that they can see and accept the problems, and then hopefully produce better stuff next time.




RE: World class already
By TSS on 7/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: World class already
By isorfir on 7/30/2007 8:53:06 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
if the xbox640 (saw somebody name it that way, kinda appropriate when you think about it :P)


Wouldn't it be xBox720?

360 x2 = 720


RE: World class already
By kkwst2 on 7/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: World class already
By omnicronx on 7/30/2007 10:31:01 AM , Rating: 5
naw a 3 digit number is so 90's
I am thinking

Original = 180
2nd gen 180x2 = 360
3rd gen 180^2 = 129600


RE: World class already
By lemonadesoda on 7/30/2007 3:23:22 PM , Rating: 5
I think they'll hire some nerdy-cool PR company, and call it:

xbox p (pi - full circle, and approx "3")

alternatively, after Goldmann Sachs have had a chance to bring MS and Apple together,

ibox.

LOL


RE: World class already
By S3anister on 7/31/2007 6:27:46 PM , Rating: 5
and when they release updates for the Xbox Pi they can change the firmware from 3.14 to 3.1415


RE: World class already
By S3anister on 7/31/2007 6:29:05 PM , Rating: 4
or better yet, call it the PiBox.

Because that makes so much sense...


RE: World class already
By DJMiggy on 8/1/2007 5:15:18 PM , Rating: 1
Who cares.


RE: World class already
By Griswold on 8/1/2007 6:26:28 AM , Rating: 1
Mmmhmm... he said pie...


RE: World class already
By Wilk on 8/2/2007 4:06:44 AM , Rating: 2
Sounds to me like "PeeBox" :D


RE: World class already
By qrhetoric on 7/30/2007 1:02:52 PM , Rating: 2
Since 540 degrees is the same as 180, I'd say they'll be moving backwards until they hit Xbox 0, which is when the whole thing just fizzles and they wish everyone would forget they tried to make consoles.


RE: World class already
By SavagePotato on 8/3/2007 10:59:52 AM , Rating: 2
They should call it the iXBOX.

Just maybe it would trick some of the sheep that would sacrifice their grandmother to satan to get an iphone on board, for some extra sales.


RE: World class already
By alce11 on 7/30/2007 9:01:34 AM , Rating: 5
I'd like to remind everybody that for many years -and way before the original xbox- microsoft has built some of the finest game controllers, mice and keyboards. I actually always thought "if just their sw could be as good as their hw".
The 360 is a mess, but I think chances are the 720 will be a great console.


RE: World class already
By omnicronx on 7/30/2007 9:31:08 AM , Rating: 2
xbox 720 is such a bad name, you would think with all the millions spent in marketing they would eventually come up with a better name.. hopefully..

how about XBOX PI*r^2?

;)


RE: World class already
By alce11 on 7/30/2007 10:05:13 AM , Rating: 5
a surface? is soooooo 2D!!!
what about something really 3D like xbox sphere? it also has the advantage taht the name comes with it's own design
;)


RE: World class already
By jtesoro on 7/30/2007 11:34:14 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
what about something really 3D like xbox sphere?


Yeah, but that'll just put them on par with the Gamecube. No wonder Nintendo's ahead! ;)


RE: World class already
By abhaxus on 7/30/2007 8:49:43 PM , Rating: 3
You mean like the Okama Gamesphere?


RE: World class already
By bunnyfubbles on 7/30/2007 12:14:38 PM , Rating: 3
well 360 is only the degrees in a circle, they could go to (4/3)*pi*r^3 ;)


RE: World class already
By rdeegvainl on 7/30/2007 1:24:27 PM , Rating: 2
Or maybe they could not try and create headaches and just call it the y box?


RE: World class already
By omnicronx on 7/30/2007 1:33:47 PM , Rating: 5
or y = m(s) + b?

;)


RE: World class already
By erikejw on 7/31/07, Rating: 0
RE: World class already
By cheetah2k on 8/1/2007 11:36:15 PM , Rating: 1
Isn't the 360 just 60 - 36 = 24 - 1(controller) = 23?

Where is Jim Carey when you need him?


RE: World class already
By BiuTech on 7/30/2007 1:55:21 PM , Rating: 3
Well if we're gonna get "trigonomic", it opens up a lot of nerdy names like the Xbox Tangent, or Cosine, or something.


RE: World class already
By psychobriggsy on 7/30/2007 8:51:18 AM , Rating: 2
They didn't really have an option. A three year RROD warranty due to the design fault, or a full recall of affected consoles (with no fixed design to replace them with yet, nor the quantities that would be required). The latter would have been the end of Microsoft's games console interests for a very long time.

The three year warranty is in effect a recall, but at the time of failure (because the failure is not dangerous, it's just a design flaw), which allows Microsoft to stay in the market, to ensure they will have hardware to fix the consoles as they break, and it's also very PR friendly.


RE: World class already
By Myrandex on 7/30/2007 8:53:46 AM , Rating: 2
I have always considered microsoft world class when it comes to hardware in the past. Their mice and keyboards are the best in my eyes with no comparisons from the rest of the competition. Their game controllers (for PCs) have always been pretty sweet as well.


RE: World class already
By OrSin on 7/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: World class already
By michal1980 on 7/30/2007 10:42:38 AM , Rating: 2
nope its a design flaw. if it was just in manufacturing they could source it somewhere else and the problem would be fixed. However thats not possible by whoever designed the hardware. and not everything is always made at lowest cost, companys like everyone else does the a cost anaylsis, cheapest doesn't always win


RE: World class already
By deeznuts on 7/30/2007 12:50:38 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Actually isn't not a design flaw it a manufacting flaw.


Me thinks you don't know what the difference between design flaw and manufacturing flaw is. ;)


RE: World class already
By omnicronx on 7/30/2007 1:36:00 PM , Rating: 2
well don't just sit there, enlighten us why don't you.. me thinks...


RE: World class already
By Oregonian2 on 7/30/2007 2:20:26 PM , Rating: 2
It could be either or both, depends upon what exactly is wrong and why.


RE: World class already
By Oregonian2 on 7/30/2007 2:22:20 PM , Rating: 3
P.S. - And I say that as an electronic engineer of 34 years experience (and all of that with embedded processor systems).


RE: World class already
By Hawkido on 7/30/2007 3:49:18 PM , Rating: 3
From what I read the RRoD is caused by the MB warping due to extreme heat. The warping then snaps the weakly soldered BGA connectors apart on the GPU and sometimes on the CPU as well.

Unless the warping is the fault of using cheap materials for the MB, then it is a design flaw. Otherwise they could use higher quality control on MB supplier, and the problem would be fixed. I can't see that, as they stated that the problem cannot be resolved without a complete redesign. I think that they placed too many extreme heat sources, too close together, and at such a specific placement that makes the MB want to flex causing the break in the circuit. I have also heard word that they could not cook the System at a high enough temperature to properly fuse the BGA's (due to damaging the chips and/or the MB) and that created the vulnurability for MB warping breaking the BGA connections.

Either way, once the PPC shrink comes through, and maybe the GPU as well, I hear they are going to redistribute the heat sources on the MB as to give them space and hopefully prevent the warp-age, and will look at insulating the critical components so they can survive the baking process and properly fuse the BGA's, which should be a triple wammy on their booboo's.

Can't wait to see the Pic's from inside the xbox360 (fixed version) to see if any of it is true. I know someone here will open theirs up and give us a peek!


RE: World class already
By encryptkeeper on 7/30/2007 5:40:18 PM , Rating: 2
as much of an idiot as michal is, he has a point. The 360 has been on the market for almost 2 years, any manufacturing problems would certainly be dealt with by now. All manufacturing equipment should function according to a preset range set by Microsoft. If it deviates, they can fix it. But heat causing the motherboard to warp is a design flaw, not manufacturing. The only reason it wouldn't is if the system is being manufactured to generate a certain amount of heat, and due to a flaw in production, is causing it to generate much more heat than originally designed. The latter is MUCH easier to trace.


RE: World class already
By deeznuts on 7/30/2007 6:35:30 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
well don't just sit there, enlighten us why don't you.. me thinks...
Oops, sorry, I thought it didn't need to be explained.

Design defects, so to speak, are defects which are intended. The defect itself isn't intended, but the intended design of the product is INHERENTLY defective. A manufacturing defect is when for one reason or another, the product as built has deviated from the design somehow (shoddy soldering, crappy base parts put together).

Design defects must be corrected by a redesign. Manufacturing defects must be cured through redoing manufacturing procedures.

In this case, since it had gone on so long, and MS said it fixed the problem (along with what appears to be a re-design of cooling) it seems to be a design defect.

The above is from products liability involving tort, but general concepts can be applied here.


RE: World class already
By SunAngel on 7/30/2007 9:33:03 PM , Rating: 3
...product liability involing tort? where is the injury? Has someone had a XBox360 burn them, blow up, or some other malfunction casuing injury?

See if we can get DailyTech to get us some stories of injuries caused by faulty XBoxes.

While my preference for a PS3, I truely don't think the 360 is all that bad. And I am nearly certain Microsoft would never release a product if it had the slightest possiblity of causing PL involving tort. PL involving tort would be a deathblow to the XBox 360 if one should ever arise.


RE: World class already
By deeznuts on 7/31/2007 3:24:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
...product liability involing tort? where is the injury? Has someone had a XBox360 burn them, blow up, or some other malfunction casuing injury?


I said the concepts are borrowed from products liability, and that it applies here (design vs. manuf defect) not that the RRoD situation involves tort.

However, with some people having so many die on them, maybe there is a case involving Negligent Infliction of Emotional Distress. Or if the defect was known, Intention Infliction of Emotional Distress!

(just kidding fellas don't get your panties in a bunch).


RE: World class already
By kilkennycat on 7/30/2007 10:45:19 AM , Rating: 4
Nope.

Remember that the 3-year extension is ONLY for the red-ring of death. All other failures are limited by the 1-year warranty. So when the internal DVD drive fails due to overheating by the immediate-proximity CPU and GPU heatsinks getting clogged up with junk you may be out of luck. The Xbox360 in ALL of its CURRENT forms is a heap of hardware-garbage in terms of design for thermal reliability. Hopefully MS will have completely hardware-redesigned the product with the changeover to the 65nm CPU and GPU, including making the internals ( particularly the CPU and GPU heatsinks ) fully user-accessible for cleaning.


RE: World class already
By encryptkeeper on 7/30/2007 5:29:13 PM , Rating: 5
...It was painful to announce the write-off that we had to announce...

Hang on, I have a violin around here somewhere...


Bullcrap
By SiliconAddict on 7/30/2007 10:01:51 AM , Rating: 3
"and yet we knew we had to take care of our customers.”

Bullcrap. No company just casually drop over a billion on their customers because they want to "take care" of them. They did it to avoid a class action lawsuit, pure and simple. Hell they may still get hit with a lawsuit. I want to see how they handle someone calling up saying that they want reparations for the 2 360's that they had to replace out of pocket.




RE: Bullcrap
By mdogs444 on 7/30/2007 10:07:15 AM , Rating: 2
Right now, there isn't reason or just for a class actions suit. They are repairing the consoles, refunding consumers, and extending the warranty for known issues. Not sure what else they could sue for.

They did it for two reasons: A) like you said, class action lawsuit, B) PR - to save face, restore consumer faith.

Not quite sure wha tyou mean about someone calling up for replacement out of pocket. I do not believe they are covering if you got it fixed somewhere besides Microsoft, if thats what you were referring to.


RE: Bullcrap
By Polynikes on 7/30/2007 10:40:53 AM , Rating: 2
The warranties on the first run of Xbox360 were running out shortly before a lot of the boxes were dying, and people were forced to pay for repairs out-of-pocket.


RE: Bullcrap
By zaki on 7/30/2007 10:55:19 AM , Rating: 4
yeah, microsoft denied that there was an issue for a long time, leaving people who had surpassed their warranties to pay out of their own pocket, however after microsoft started to acknowledge the problem, they said that they would refund all those that had to pay from their pockets,

though this is a good move, i think it was a little too late, i would have been really pissed off if i had been told that microsoft would not fix my console, and then i would go out and spend $100 to fix the problem, and then a few months later, microsoft is like : "oh, my bad, that was our mistake" we'll pay you back.

it would have been a lot smoother had they been on the ball from the beginning and acknowledged the problem, and given out free repairs.


RE: Bullcrap
By fic2 on 7/30/2007 1:16:20 PM , Rating: 2
From what I remember there is a class-action against MS for the Xbox scrapping/killing DVD discs. They will have to settle that one, too. I don't think that telling consumers they have to cough up $20 for each replacement disc when it is the DVD drive killing the discs would go over well with a jury.


RE: Bullcrap
By SirLucius on 7/30/2007 1:19:03 PM , Rating: 2
You're correct. I have a friend who may be a part of it (I haven't talked to him in a while). I know he was very interested when he first heard about, since he hadn't had his 360 more than a few weeks before he had to start replacing discs.


RE: Bullcrap
By omnicronx on 7/30/2007 2:25:13 PM , Rating: 2
Yell at MS until they send him a replacement (works now) or tell him to fix it himself by removing the dvdrom drive, opening up the case and adding foam pads around the top of the case (amazingly has 0) to stop the disc from turning sideways and scratching against the laser.


Zune?
By paydirt on 7/30/2007 8:58:04 AM , Rating: 2
Does the Zune have any hardware problems?




RE: Zune?
By mdogs444 on 7/30/2007 9:00:31 AM , Rating: 2
I dont know does it?

Was a real question, i dont know anyone would owns, or have owned, a Zune.


RE: Zune?
By peritusONE on 7/30/2007 10:39:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Does the Zune have any hardware problems?

Not that I've read, really. It had some software issues that have been fixed in previous updates, but other than that, I've not really heard any problems.

I love my Zune. I've owned since day 1, and haven't had a single problem out of it. It's used every single day.


RE: Zune?
By Mach Omega on 7/30/2007 3:39:04 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I love my Zune. I've owned since day 1, and haven't had a single problem out of it. It's used every single day.


I once spotted someone with a Zune. I tried to take a video of her but it came out grainy and indistinguishable... oddly enough, same thing happened when I tried to video Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster, and a UFO. One day someone will provide credible data that someone owns a Zune.


RE: Zune?
By theapparition on 7/31/2007 8:05:50 AM , Rating: 2
Try it.
Besides being much uglier in package than the ipod, it works exceptionally better.


Why I don't have a 360!
By Anosh on 7/30/2007 8:12:51 AM , Rating: 2
All these issues with hardware is the single most important reason why I haven't bought a 360.

I really don't want to go through all the trouble every time my console gets an error.

Perhaps I'm spoiled since I've been using Nintendo consoles all my life and I cannot recall any of them dying or even causing any kind of trouble with the exception of the original NES where I now would have to blow and "warm up" the cartridges.

Then again I don't use that console anymore.




RE: Why I don't have a 360!
By kelmon on 7/30/2007 11:12:45 AM , Rating: 2
Same here. Yeah, it looks like it has some good games for it and the price is coming down to something reasonable but I'm not going to buy something with such a high chance of failure regardless of any warranty that comes with it. If a future revision of the console removes all "killer" bugs so that I can use it without expecting to turn into a glorified paperweight then I'll reconsider my decision. In the meantime the Wii still remains the only sensible choice at the moment - reasonable price and I haven't heard of the things stopping working. Not that my wife will let me buy one, mind...


RE: Why I don't have a 360!
By ryedizzel on 7/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Why I don't have a 360!
By Madzombie on 7/31/2007 12:48:49 PM , Rating: 4
You should never allow a hardware defect to stop you from buying something unless the manufacturer is unwilling to fix it.

I completely disagree, I don't want to buy a system that will be unreliable, even if I'm guaranteed a repair. It's still a hassle to send a console in for repair and it means you're without it for a few days. I know games aren't a necessity in life but if I spend good money on something I expect it to work without question.


Learning the hardway
By crystal clear on 7/30/2007 11:43:26 AM , Rating: 1
Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer .........also said-

Speaking on Thursday at an annual meeting with financial analysts, Ballmer acknowledged he had been "hammered" by investors who argued Microsoft should focus on its core desktop and server software business and forget businesses like digital music players and video games.



Ballmer said the $1.06 billion charge the company took to fix problems with the Xbox game console was "painful," teaching it a lesson about hardware design .


http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?typ...




RE: Learning the hardway
By Mach Omega on 7/30/2007 3:43:28 PM , Rating: 4
Gee, when I stated that MS couldn't keep propping up its XBox division forever, everyone wrote that I was nuts and that MS could throw money at it indefinitely. I think my response was "even Microsoft is beholden to its shareholders." Hope this more conclusively proves my point.


RE: Learning the hardway
By encryptkeeper on 7/30/2007 5:59:19 PM , Rating: 1
Go ahead and vote them down all you want folks but they have a point. Microsoft wants to set the standard for all digital communication, and when they try to divide their time between HD DVD, XBox, and Zune their productivity software takes a hit. Sure, office 2007 is very good, but was it really necessary to bloat the software so it could do stuff most people don't use? Vista? How could so many people spend so much money and time on that OS and it be soooo screwed up out of the gate? Sure, there's plenty of profit to "prop up" the XBox division but investors are worried about MS not being as profitable with all the crap that's happened to them in the last year and a half.


RE: Learning the hardway
By crystal clear on 7/31/2007 12:43:17 AM , Rating: 1
WinXp/Vista/Office etc are the bread & butter of M$,they the shareholders see Google as an example for the future for M$.

They afterall are the shareholders, they decide what they want M$ to be & shape it accordingly.

We the buyer/users/commentators etc cannot do much about it.

Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer & his collegues used the annual meeting with financial analysts to announce a roadmap for M$ discretly.

Rather than focus on the years financial results,they prefered to use divertionary tactics.

But unfortunately or fortunately the shareholder/investors/etc were quick to notice/observe these tactics & focused hard on the real issues concerning M.S. today & the future path M.S should take to .

From my past experiences I learnt the smart way- listen to the shareholders & do as they say ! or get ready to go


RE: Learning the hardway
By aos007 on 8/2/2007 12:50:57 PM , Rating: 1
That is very interesting. I wonder how many votes are owned by shareholders with that view.

If you look at Microsoft, they have been paying a lot of attention on stuff that is not their "core business". But it all ties together. They're creating new multimedia codecs (jpeg, video, audio), they are releasing hardware devices that utilize those codecs, provide content sale services that sell content that ties hardware, codecs and their OS, sell gaming consoles that utilize their software expertise and tie game developers into their OS (and also utilize codecs), and much more. All big companies have been trying to get their hands into many jars because they don't really know which one will be "the one" tomorrow. One wrong step and your "core business" can become obsolete when future trends make it so (imagine if thin clients took off, what would happen to their OS sales, or if all applications go Web the Google way and both their OS and office come under attack).

I don't think their strategy is bad. I'm just not sure how long will they be able to prop up gaming division that doesn't bring in any money. I think the warranty extension couldn't have come at the worst time.


he is a funny guy
By tayhimself on 7/30/2007 8:22:51 AM , Rating: 5
Warranties Warranties Warranties!!!!
*throws chair*
Hardware Hardware Hardware !!




Cooling
By aliasfox on 7/30/2007 2:15:13 PM , Rating: 4
If I recall correctly, back when Microsoft was developing the 360, they were using dual processor Power Mac G5s as developer boxes (the 360 processor is related to the PPC970, which Apple calls the G5).

For two processors (single core), Apple put nine fans into an enclosure at least twice as big as the 360, and gave the processors heatsinks nearly the size of a GameCube. Of the 9 fans, I believe four were set up in a push-pull configuration over the heatsink. In fact, the top of the line model had liquid cooling to keep those cores cool.

If Apple needed that much cooling for two of the cores, how could Microsoft think they could get away with putting fewer, smaller fans into the 360 to cool three cores running faster than Apple was ever able to push the G5?




Did Steve throw a chair......
By kilkennycat on 7/30/2007 10:50:08 AM , Rating: 2
... at Peter Moore on his way out the door?




Yeah..."painful"
By Chadder007 on 7/30/2007 11:22:18 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, its pretty freaking painful for the XBOX 360 owners too. Boo hoo to Microsoft.




this just isnt m$'s market
By rika13 on 7/30/2007 3:45:46 PM , Rating: 2
enough said, they may have the dev teams, but cant make the hardware (original xbox was huge, 360 has had thermal problems since day one since it wasnt big enough to get real heatsinks)

still the best M$ gaming platform: http://alienware.com/




Mouse and Keyboard
By jeromekwok on 7/31/2007 2:05:49 AM , Rating: 2
I think MS is good at making world class hardware, but that is limited to mouse and keyboard.

Now MS is using all the money we paid for XP/Vista, to fund his ambition, world class RROD xbox ME.




Contradictions galore !
By crystal clear on 7/31/2007 2:46:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ballmer promised that, going forward, Microsoft will be “world-class when we do hardware.”


I notice some serious contradictions between what he says & plans to what Gates says/thinks below in this article,I quote portions of them to show this contracdictions.

Read the full article via the link provided.

Gates-

“Why do you like your iPod, your iPhone, your Xbox 360, your Google Search?” he said. “The real magic sauce is not the parts that we buy for the Xbox, or the parts that Apple buys for iPhones, it’s the software that goes into it.”


“The phone is becoming way more software intensive,” he said. “And to be able to say that there’s some challenge for us in the phone market when its becoming software intensive, I don’t see

The industry is rushing to “software as a service” models ranging from Salesforce.com, a San Francisco company that sells business contact software delivered via Web browsers, to Apple’s iPhone, which is designed as a classic “thin client,” a computer that requires the Internet for many of its capabilities.

It is a vision that Microsoft itself has at least partially embraced. Microsoft, in contrast, is calling its strategy “software plus services,” an approach that is intended to protect the company’s existing installed base.



During the interview, all three executives indicated that Microsoft is now moving quickly to offer new Internet services for personal computer users. Centralized data storage will make it possible for PC users to gain access to most or all of their information from all of the different types of computers they use, whether they are desktops, laptops or smartphones, and wherever they are located.



Microsoft’s Gates Plans Leave Amid Great Change

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/30/technology/30gat...

Draw your own conclusions !




this
By devvo109 on 7/31/2007 7:09:58 PM , Rating: 2
Xbox360 is crap
By LiptonGreenTea on 7/31/07, Rating: 0
The indian Game
By indianpunk on 7/30/07, Rating: -1
its amazing..
By zaki on 7/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: its amazing..
By Snuffalufagus on 7/30/2007 11:51:43 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think it's so much of a pro-ms site. I think a lot of it might just be people who are bored with the same tired comments. Anything with M-dollar sign seems to get rated down, BSOD comments which often were and still are usually someone elses fault get rated down. Fanboy comments for both the PS3 and 360 tend to get rated down. Anything from cornfed and beenthere (or whatever the hell the name is) don't tend to last long either.


RE: its amazing..
By aos007 on 8/2/2007 12:40:33 PM , Rating: 1
You're right that there is a strong pro-MS bias in MODDING POSTS here (I don't think the news themselves are too biased). I have noticed that too, it's been going on for months, sometimes subtle sometimes not so much. My guess is that there must be a lot of MS employees visiting here modding things up and down.


RE: its amazing..
By darkpaw on 8/2/2007 5:36:38 PM , Rating: 1
Or maybe its because the hard core MS haters generally don't know shit. I think MS's employees have better things to be doing then modding posts on a geek site.

MS isn't perfect, they aren't even close and no company or software product in exsistance is. They also don't deserve a fraction of the shit that generally gets dumped on them as a company.


xbox fanboys: remember what the rest of us were saying
By zaki on 7/30/07, Rating: -1
By mdogs444 on 7/30/2007 9:26:52 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
I even used the term "half-assed", back then people disagreed with me, saying that i was a "sony fanboy",


Which is quite obvious by your post. Hard to believe anyone's comment or criticism of a product if they were bashing it right when it came out, and never owned one.


By mdogs444 on 7/30/2007 9:50:30 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
hell, you know what, you are fanboy too, get used to it.


Not hardly. I dont play games, and dont own a console.

I am just trying to be unbiased with posts.

However, your 33% is not confirmed. That is a percentage thrown out to us from a retailer (gamestop i believe) and their experienced return rate. I am not arguing that the percentage is not extremely high, but until an "official" number is released, the 33% number is not official.


By GreenyMP on 7/30/2007 10:19:09 AM , Rating: 3
Whether 33% is official or not everyone believes it and that says something.

I am a Sony fanboy. I own a PlayStation 3. But I do have to give it to Microsoft on this one. Taking care of your customers like this really earns some loyalty. To tell you shareholders that you have to take a billion dollar charge because you sold crap is a tough thing to do. And if I owned a 360 sending the thing back for repair every six months is a lot easier to handle than choking up $140 for repair.

Kudos to Microsoft. I really think they deserve the fanboys that they just bought.


By mdogs444 on 7/30/2007 10:54:20 AM , Rating: 4
Who said its not horrible? I just said the number is not confirmed. For all you know the real number could be greater than 33%.

So not only are you biased in your comments, you cannot read either.


By mdogs444 on 7/30/2007 11:02:07 AM , Rating: 1
What point are you trying to prove to me? I know you're a fanboy, and I dont see why you are defending that against me. I never said anything was wrong w/ it.

All i said is that im unbiased against any systems, and when stating numbers to know the difference between confirmed and not confirmed.


By jarman on 7/30/2007 12:58:01 PM , Rating: 2
So do I...

Back on topic, please post something relevant to the article instead of going back and forth arguing about who is a bigger fanboy and who isn't.


By sdsdv10 on 7/30/2007 11:31:06 AM , Rating: 3

quote:
mdogs444 said...
However, your 33% is not confirmed.


This or any number won't ever be "confirmed". This is proprietary information, that if known, would be helpful to competitors. MS will never "officially" state a specific number on returns. They may give a range, or state that it matches industry standards. In this case you will have to rely on 3rd party information (believable or not).


By deeznuts on 7/30/2007 12:45:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
However, your 33% is not confirmed. That is a percentage thrown out to us from a retailer (gamestop i believe) and their experienced return rate. I am not arguing that the percentage is not extremely high, but until an "official" number is released, the 33% number is not official.
The silence is deafening however. I agree with you, 33% sounds high, and probably not entirely accurate.

However, the real number must be close or embarrassingly high for them not to comment or make a statement clearing their brand name.


By JimFear on 7/30/2007 1:03:39 PM , Rating: 2
Regardless of whether or not its that high there are enough tales on the internet of people have consoles replaced into double digits and some 3rd party repair outfits even refusing to deal with the RROD because its not cost effective, the flip side is that you will rarely see a forum post stating "My 360 has lived after 1 week!" so you could argue that for every dead 360 there are 10 working ones yet these working ones will never be documented, regardless of this coin flippage its very worrying that its got to this state where MS are pumping billions into repairs almost 2 years after launch.

Quite frankly I think its been handled poorly, if its broken it needs to be fixed, clearly there are some issues if a company are footing a repair bill large enough money to buy a small country on a bit of hardware that should really have been fixed earlier in its life. Its like putting bandages over a laceration, sure it'll cover it up but the mess underneath is still going to stay unless you do something about it.


By Chaser on 7/31/2007 9:34:33 AM , Rating: 2
I don't think that number has been its officially disputed neither. It just seems accepted by all parties?


By omnicronx on 7/30/2007 9:55:37 AM , Rating: 2
Pointing it out now doesnt make you a fanboy, its a well known fact. Pointing it out at the time it was released is even if you 'speculated' that they were releasing their console too fast, as at the time there was no reason to think 30% of 360's were going to die, whether they did or not. In fact i do not remember the media really making a scene about it at all, even though they did no start production until 6 months before launch.

Lucky guess? maybe... but that doesn't make you a profit, it makes you a hater ;)


By mdogs444 on 7/30/2007 10:58:56 AM , Rating: 2
So you bash me in saying that 33% is not confirmed, then you come out and admit it? Too funny.


By Samus on 7/30/2007 11:56:19 AM , Rating: 2
you all must be unfamiliar with the number of original PS1's that had defects, only to be consistently replaced through 13 model generations in 6 years to 'thwart' modchip compatibility, when huge design changes were actually at hand (partially to reduce production costs, I'll admit)

But even though the Sony fanbase cried foul, sony never recalled, mostly because by the time everyone was pissed the PS1 was <$150.


By omnicronx on 7/30/2007 11:57:52 AM , Rating: 2
what makes you think that? In the electronics industry, i would say anything more than 5-10% hardware failure rate would be considered bad. For all you know the number is much closer to 10% which would still be enough to warrant the extended warrenties, especially when a much higher number of 30% was reported. Nobody is going to believe them either way without proof so its better to be safe than sorry ;) .. thats marketing for you, and MS is the king of marketing


By encryptkeeper on 7/30/2007 5:44:05 PM , Rating: 2
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a new michal!


By deeznuts on 7/30/2007 12:48:25 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Uh actually yeah, you either have to hold a piece of hardware in your hands to know something about it or get someone else that held the hardware to tell you something about it, anything else is purely conjecture and most likely based on pure bias.
Actually, no you don't. You can sometimes make very educated guesses/speculation regarding products without holding it. These are things that just jump out at you spec wise (or with pictures).

This guy just made a presumption, which turned out to be correct (that MS seems like they were rushing the product).


By MonkeyPaw on 7/30/2007 6:30:38 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
i hope the 360 fans are really enjoying it, sucks for those who thought Microsoft had kept their efforts focused on producing a specifically "gaming" machine, too bad they forgot that it actually has to work.


I don't get it. Yeah, my 360 broke. MS fixed it in a matter of a couple weeks. All it cost me was a phone call and a drive to the UPS store (MS pays for shipping both ways). Was I inconvenienced? Sure. Do I feel like a fool? Nope. MS is taking the role of the fool, and they are doing it at their expense, for the sake of their customers. Why would I feel bad for buying one, just because you think you knew better? While you've been complaining against it, I've been playing it and having fun.

The only way this issue would truly bother me is if the cost of repairs made MS abandon the 360. I don't see them doing that for the sake of their other hardware products (Zune, especially).


Aw poor baby...
By ralith on 7/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Aw poor baby...
By mdogs444 on 7/30/2007 8:59:31 AM , Rating: 2
Wow, although I agree, you sound a little testy today.

Sounds like someone's mom wouldn't give him a second helping of Special K this morning...


RE: Aw poor baby...
By IceTron on 7/30/2007 5:44:07 PM , Rating: 1
Sounds like someone has a chip the size of everest on his shoulders as well....


"Intel is investing heavily (think gazillions of dollars and bazillions of engineering man hours) in resources to create an Intel host controllers spec in order to speed time to market of the USB 3.0 technology." -- Intel blogger Nick Knupffer











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