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Securom DRM contributes to record breaking piracy

Spore is the most pirated game in history according to TorrentFreak. Post release, Spore generated significant negative publicity due to Electronic Arts’ decision to implement the unpopular Securom DRM. Although the record breaking piracy of Spore cannot be attributed solely to consumers rejecting the DRM implemented within it, it most likely helped as the statistics now show.

Spore produced piracy levels normally seen only for newly released movies according to TorrentFreak. Ten days after the game’s launch half a million copies of the game had been downloaded. Since that time over one million copies have been downloaded using BitTorrent. According to TorrentFreak statistics Spore was downloaded 1.7 million times since early September, which is a record breaking number for a game.

According to the TorrentFreak article, Electronic Arts attempted to downplay the initial piracy statistics of half a million downloads. EA’s Mariam Sughayer stated that every BitTorrent download was not a successful copy, and that several downloads did not work due to bugs and viruses. TorrentFreak defended their statistics pointing out poorly moderated torrent sites and malicious torrents do exist but constitute less than 1% of available torrents, and are not included in their statistics.

In the article, TorrentFreak also provides a list of the 10 most downloaded PC games on BitTorrent in 2008, with an estimated download count for each. Spore leads the way with 1.7 million copies; the second most pirated game was The Sims 2 at 1.15 million copies, also from Spore creator Will Wright. Assassins Creed completes the top 3 with just over a million downloads.



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duh.
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 3:34:56 PM , Rating: 5
There is one surefire way to ensure your product is pirated like crazy - put DRM on it.

Want to actually sell your product, rather than have it be pirated? Stop treating legitimate buyers like criminals, and don't put DRM on your stuff.

It's as simple as that. And I guarantee this to be true.




RE: duh.
By bighairycamel on 12/10/2008 3:45:01 PM , Rating: 5
And it's getting a little out of hand in my opinion... I was wanting to get FarCry2 for the PC only to find out it had a toned down version of SecureRom (or whatever it's called). So I decided I would only play it if I got it for PS3 or 360. Then one day I see they have it up on steam, so I was excited, only to find out they still included the SecureRom garbage on there, defeating half the purpose of using Steam in the first place.

Some people say it's no big deal and it doesn't eat up resources... but it's the principle of someone telling me a game I bought will only be good through 5 installs so 10 years from now on a boring rainy day I'll be SOL. You know how many PC builds/upgrades I go through that would need a fresh install? At least 23 per year.


RE: duh.
By bighairycamel on 12/10/2008 3:48:12 PM , Rating: 4
Woops, last sentance was suposed to be "2 per year" .


RE: duh.
By Sazar on 12/10/2008 6:20:13 PM , Rating: 2
Far Cry 2 can only be installed twice in a year? For the Steam version?

I did not know this. Can anyone verify this please? I won't be back on my version till later today.


RE: duh.
By bighairycamel on 12/10/2008 10:51:50 PM , Rating: 2
I think you misread my post. I believe you get a total of 5 installs on 3 machines (that doesn't mean 15 total, just 5 installs between any 3 machines).

What I was saying is that I upgrade or replace components on my PC at least twice a year that would require a new install... (IE - new HDD, new motherboard/cpu). At that rate the game would last me 2 1/2 years at best.

To this day my lengthiest game logging time has been spent on Starcraft... from 1998... and I still break out BF: 1942 and MechWarrior 4 on rainy days so the ability to replay my games whenever I want is a dealbreaker.


RE: duh.
By Tsuwamono on 12/11/2008 9:31:40 AM , Rating: 4
I'm the same way. I catch myself playing Doom 2 on occasion on my 486. I play Mech Warrior 4 aswell as medal of honor allied assault which i have installed probably 20 times since i bought it, Call of duty(3 or 4 installs), Call of duty 2(4 - 6), Call of duty 4(4 installs already), BF Vietnam(6-7 easily), BF2(5 or 6), Guild wars(8-10), SW Battlefront (5 or so), and the list goes on.

DRM just annoys the hell out of me. I will pirate a game if it is filled with this DRM crap just to piss off the company and good games with limited DRM i will buy.

I'm more about the principle of it. Like that Metallica went from GIVING AWAY CDs on a street corner to complaining about songs being downloaded. So because of that I have 2 or 3 Metalica discographies on my utorrent which i seed yet have never listened to a single song.

I'm an ass, but one with principles and i refuse to support someone who considers me a criminal.


RE: duh.
By murphyslabrat on 12/11/2008 3:47:13 PM , Rating: 5
That makes sense, they treat you like a criminal so you act like one.


RE: duh.
RE: duh.
By Parhel on 12/11/2008 12:43:05 AM , Rating: 2
Thanks for clarifying. I was wondering what manner of compulsion would lead someone to build/upgrade every two weeks. I thought I was bad . . . :)


RE: duh.
By Chernobyl68 on 12/11/2008 12:41:40 PM , Rating: 2
ROLF


RE: duh.
By peritusONE on 12/11/2008 1:12:47 PM , Rating: 4
Quit rolling around on the laughing floor!!! He doesn't like it when you do that!!


RE: duh.
By Raidin on 12/12/2008 2:23:59 PM , Rating: 2
Zing!


RE: duh.
By poundsmack on 12/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: duh.
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 4:01:13 PM , Rating: 5
That's fine then. I, and hoards of other people, will not purchase a license.

I will purchase ownership of a product, however.

So, if you want to sell me something, don't be surprised when I don't buy it because of your EULA provisions and licensing schemes.


RE: duh.
By bighairycamel on 12/10/2008 4:06:28 PM , Rating: 5
Potato, Pototto... saying "Buying a game" is the same thing as "buying the licensing rights to use a game", we all know what we mean. My point still stands... it's the principle of the DRM that is the problem. Limiting my use to a certain number of installs is a scam, and you are right, we don't have to buy the game; but you must have missed the first paragraph when I decribed to you why I wouldn't be buying the game!


RE: duh.
By poundsmack on 12/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: duh.
By Gzus666 on 12/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: duh.
By on 12/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: duh.
By Ralos on 12/10/2008 6:02:30 PM , Rating: 5
Could someone here with admin privilege ban PLAYSTATION THREE, delete his account, block his IP or something?

He's not contributing anything worthwhile and is just a waste of everybody's bandwidth.

A quick check on his account reveal that he has an average rating of -0.94 out of 127 posts...


RE: duh.
By aegisofrime on 12/10/2008 7:49:13 PM , Rating: 2
Actually I find him pretty funny. Of course, on the other hand sometimes he makes me cry for humanity. I do hope he's just being sarcastic.


RE: duh.
By Gzus666 on 12/10/2008 8:17:34 PM , Rating: 5
He is either an outstanding actor and a genius, or a complete retard. I honestly don't know which.


RE: duh.
By dflynchimp on 12/10/2008 9:18:07 PM , Rating: 5
nah, if you guys notice the only people who really get pissed off at his comments are the ones who take this site (and themselves) too seriously. For the rest of us he's just a mere annoyance and someone to raise an eyebrow at.


RE: duh.
By Dark Legion on 12/10/2008 10:13:21 PM , Rating: 4
Could also be some guy that already posts on DT, got bored of it, made a new account, and thought "Hmmm, how can I get some geeks riled up today".


RE: duh.
By inighthawki on 12/10/2008 10:18:26 PM , Rating: 4
true however i, and most other, generally dislike people who just come to instigate. Some people do like to partake in a debate. Though i think he is still overreacting. He should simply do like most and shall i say...ignore him?


RE: duh.
By Raidin on 12/12/2008 2:25:18 PM , Rating: 1
I'm betting it's FITCamaro.


RE: duh.
By kristof007 on 12/11/2008 12:25:10 AM , Rating: 3
How can you find him funny when his comments are usually rated to 0 or -1. I sometimes just don't have the extra energy to expand his comment =P


RE: duh.
By Parhel on 12/11/2008 12:49:15 AM , Rating: 3
They let a admitted child molester post here for years. Do you really think they'll ban someone for being stupid? Stupid people bring page hits.


RE: duh.
By CvP on 12/11/2008 4:38:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
A quick check on his account reveal that he has an average rating of -0.94 out of 127 posts...

whoa! it used to be -1.0


RE: duh.
By murphyslabrat on 12/11/2008 3:57:46 PM , Rating: 2
no, I just fixed it. It's a nice, comfortable integer now.


RE: duh.
By on 12/12/08, Rating: -1
RE: duh.
By glitchc on 12/12/2008 10:56:44 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Could someone here with admin privilege ban PLAYSTATION THREE, delete his account, block his IP or something?


Is he infringing on your right to speak freely? We may choose disagree with his opinion (hence the votes), but he is still allowed to have one and voice it.

On the contrary, I find that he is a far better read than the vitriol spewed by some posters on this website. His opinion/facts may not stand the test of reason, but he does not attack anyone personally. Perhaps you should learn from his example and refrain from personal insults.


RE: duh.
By kondor999 on 12/11/2008 11:47:27 AM , Rating: 2
I believe the entire point of this article is that a great many people opted not to buy the game, possibly due to the DRM.

Personally, I will buy a game to support the developers, but I also routinely get a cracked version due to the convenience of not having to find a disc every time. Also, if I ever want to play it on the road or 10 years from now - it's really nice to have a copy which will play no matter what.


RE: duh.
By Bateluer on 12/10/2008 4:26:55 PM , Rating: 4
I may purchase the right to use the product, but I will 'use' it the way I wish, on as many PCs are I own, for as long as I own them, for as long as I can manage to get the product to function on increasingly powerful/updated machines.

And I can still run the Ultima games from the late 80s and early 90s on my Vista 64 machine, that that's going to be a VERY long time.

I said no to Spore, Warhead, FarCry 2, Red Alert 3, and Clear Sky because of the DRM. I didn't bother to pirate it, those titles weren't the effort anyway as I later learned.

Now, Dragon Age, if that that includes SecuRom with limited installs, I will pirate it.


RE: duh.
By plonk420 on 12/10/2008 7:52:09 PM , Rating: 1
i said no to RA3 (and bought SupComm instead as "a recent RTS to learn") because of this DRM bullshit from EA.

whereas i used to download games even if i didn't play them ("i'll play them someday when i'm bored"), i don't even do that anymore. i just download demos, or with consoles, rent the game (yay grandfathered Blockbuster Online account), then buy if i like.

TBH the last i played to completion was MGS4. and before that, no idea. it's been years. maybe Serious Sam or MGS2 PC. things have just been boring after more than a few hours of play. oh, i guess i could say i've beaten Guitar Hero 3. in some aspects, i've become a very casual gamer. OTOH, i do play WoW a bit. *shrug*


RE: duh.
By FITCamaro on 12/11/2008 8:44:11 AM , Rating: 2
Heh. I still haven't beat MGS4 and it was why I bought a PS3. My 360 is far more fun to play. The PS3 is mainly a Blu-ray player. Maybe this weekend I'll sit down and finish it. I didn't stop playing it because its a bad game. Just I was playing video games for a few weeks and then took a break. Then something else had my attention so I never picked it back up.


RE: duh.
By Headfoot on 12/12/2008 3:29:42 PM , Rating: 3
I own 3 copies of Red Alert and played all of them to death, I loved that game I bought 2 copies of Red Alert 2 and I have been eagerly waiting Red Alert 3 for years. I refuse to buy it from EA after the way they have treated their customers for the previous few years.


RE: duh.
By surt on 12/10/2008 5:19:32 PM , Rating: 4
People don't understand it because it isn't true. Unless the licensing terms are stated up front, and the retailer complies with the UCP, the sale of the box == the sale of the software.


RE: duh.
By someguy123 on 12/10/2008 6:13:03 PM , Rating: 5
the problem with the EULA is you can't read the damn thing until you purchase the product!

also, how can these idiots claim to be selling a license to a product that offers no returns? I can understand software requiring licensing when you can create things that generate revenue, but a license on entertainment? buyers are only suppose to get X amount of entertainment per disc? are movie companies going to start claiming "use licensing", and then limit the amount of different dvd players you can play your dvd on?

I can understand not owning the engine, characters etc, but to not own the game is just unbelievable. would be like buying a car, trying to let your relative borrow it only to find the car auto locks when detecting different finger prints on the wheel. you're a thief if you share nowadays I guess.


RE: duh.
By crimson117 on 12/11/2008 1:08:38 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
are movie companies going to start claiming "use licensing", and then limit the amount of different dvd players you can play your dvd on?
They tried that already... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Video_Express


RE: duh.
By Chernobyl68 on 12/11/2008 12:43:27 PM , Rating: 2
Circuit City's DIVX scheme...


RE: duh.
By poundsmack on 12/10/2008 3:48:58 PM , Rating: 2
as opposed to people who don't that have a piracy rate fall less? http://kotaku.com/5085915/90-of-world-of-goo-insta...

I think not. While i am not a fan of DRM as a developer I understand compnies disire to protect their investments. at the same time, EA isnt really lossing many customers to those who pirate. after all these are people who would otherwise not purchased the game, statisticly its a rather high margin. there is no right way, cant win with DRM cant win without it. what it comes down to is how people behave and the respect they have for the company and or the game.

If I download a song and i like it I will go out and buy it, if not i just toss it in the recycle bin and be done with it. but with more people gaming, more people able to access torrents, and big hit titles being realsed every other week, the piracy rate is always going to go up. I would love to see a statistic on top games from 5 years ago compared to now, as far as legitimate purchases compaired to illigal downloads. i bet its gone up 10 fold.


RE: duh.
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 3:53:55 PM , Rating: 4
I believe the gist of your arguement for lots of things...for example, tour the PCs on any given campus, and see how many illegal copies of PhotoShop are installed. There's no way that virtually any of those licenses would have been paid for either way...if PS wasn't available as a pirated item, they wouldn't go and buy it instead.

However, I think the case of Spore (and other video games/music/whatever) is fundamentally different. Spore doesn't cost $500 like PhotoShop. It's $50, and the vast majority of people who are interested in playing that game can afford the $50. I am very confident that extremely large numbers of people, myself included, have refused to purchase the game *solely* because of the DRM. And I *really* wanted the game, too.

For the record, I have not downloaded a pirated copy of the game either...I'm going without. In this case specifically, and I believe very large proportions of other software/music/whatever cases, I am absolutely positive that EA would have made immensely more money (and endured immensely less piracy) if they had left the DRM off.


RE: duh.
By tim851 on 12/10/2008 4:42:20 PM , Rating: 5
I'm pretty sure Adobe doesn't even mind students using Photoshop. They know, that the vast majority of them can't buy it anyways. But if they use it, they get used to it. And then later, when the students have a business and think twice about using illegal software, they are already primed to use Photoshop and don't look for alternatives.

In the same vein, Microsoft gives away most of their software for free at most universities. Because they know that students are most likely to experiment with Linux, so why risk losing them at a time when they couldn't afford the product in the first place, when you can lock them in and prime them to use your products when they can afford them.


RE: duh.
By Zshazz on 12/10/2008 6:19:26 PM , Rating: 3
+1

Exactly the same situation for me.

I wanted this game so bad ... ever since I saw information about it years ago. However, the absolutely horrible DRM persuaded me out of it. At the same time, I refuse to pirate the game for 2 reasons:

A. I believe that the makers of the game deserve money if I'm going to play it.

B. If I download it, it will only further fuel their stupidity that if they DRM'd it more, I would have bought it instead of download it.

At this point, there is nearly a 0% chance of me ever getting to play Spore because of this. Even if they release a patch to remove the DRM completely, it would have still been installed onto my system at some point. So, they'd have to re-release the game media with an entirely DRM-free version.

Too bad EA... and I hope Will is pissed off because so many of his fans were cut off from experiencing his awesome game due to DRM. :(


RE: duh.
By StevoLincolnite on 12/10/2008 8:55:51 PM , Rating: 3
I also agree that game makers deserve our money, I've been a PC gamer for 13 years and have paid for all the games I wanted, the exception has been the last few years where now I will download a game just to try it out, as developers seem to be making there games rather bloated (GTA IV anyone?).

With DRM taking over the PC gaming world I seem less enticed to buy those games, Oblvion and Fallout 3 had minimal copy protection, I downloaded those games, tried them out, then went and bought a copy the next day after discovering how addictive and massive those worlds were, and the time and effort Bethesda placed in those games.

Yet with Spore, I downloaded the game, My hopes ended as soon as I got to the Creature stage when I discovered how linear it was and the copy protection built-in which in the end lost me as a customer.

Spore had SO MUCH potential but they decided to "Dumb" the game down for the casual gamer, I was hoping for something fresh and original which I hadn't seen since Dungeon Keeper or Black and White, sure it was original... but the game could have been "So much more".


RE: duh.
By HollyDOL on 12/11/2008 1:19:24 AM , Rating: 3
Quote: I believe that the makers of the game deserve money if I'm going to play it.

And now I am going to destroy your illusion, sorry. What I am telling you is more or less copy&paste from game developing lessons I take on my uni, so it should have the right numbers.

In the game industry, there are several ways how to make a game:
1) you are very rich and can afford to pay whole development from your pocket and then "sell" it to EA or other vampire with relatively high share of profit (25% max)
2) you pay part of development and join up with producer (he's giving you some money for development, but to get any share from sale you need huge ammount of copies sold - in case of Operation Flashpoint the developers started to gain shares after 1,000,000 copies sold, which basicaly means if the developer company wants not to get homeless, they need to save money during the development process... Leading to lower quality of the final product ofc
3) Producer pays you for the game - this is coding the game on purchase order... no matter how many copies get sold, you'll never see a cent more from that.

My guess is Spore devs went the 2nd way, which means they need about 1M Spores sold before they see first dollar coming back. Just to point out share being about 15% in case of producer investing the money. Since EA are old graspers, I'd be guessing developers get 10-12% max.

So, what developer earns is so little they need to have their game development paid out before it hits public. And honestly I don't see slightest reason to support EA private planes paying for something they taken ABSOLUTELY NONE part in development.

Now because EA is yet more hungry ("what if we lost $10 !!!! End of WORLD! CEO can't buy another Mercedes today, he has to wait till tommorow!") they put such a protection that pretty much limits you of using "their" product.

In the end, I /wave on any software containing such a shit as DRM. If the game was really good, I'd just wait for good crack. OFC, if the game contains copy protection that doesn't make users idiots, paying <$50 would be already done.


RE: duh.
By Hyperion1400 on 12/11/2008 4:37:12 AM , Rating: 2
Thank you, finally someone who realizes how the revenue structure works. However, now I am going to go off topic.

My biggest issue with DRM is that it doesn't actually prevent piracy. Ya sure, it may prevent a guy from duping the odd copy on to his friends computer, but that can be prevented with the most basic of copy-protection schemes. 99.99 percent of DRM cracking occurs through a few major release groups(Razor1911, Reloaded, Hatred[although they don't like to have their cracks distributed if I remember correctly] etc.) Then that one cracked copy gets redistributed over and over again through countless DDL servers and Bittorrent trackers.(Yes I realize none of the data actually goes through the tracker; I'm not an EA lawyer. But, you get the idea.) The sole point of their DRM schemes is to fuck their customers over while using piracy as an excuse, when anyone with half a brain(this excludes 90 percent of the American public) can see that these futile efforts will do nothing to stop piracy.

And yes, I do pirate, quite a bit in fact. I won't go into exact details, but 1.5 TB of HDD space doesn't get filled up on porn and apps alone. The main reason I pirate is for the reasons listed above. I think companies that lie to the public to deceive them of their rights and make easy money deserve to be hurt in anyway possible. I refuse to pay for cookie cutter, ported, console games designed for the unwashed masses and take great offense when they taint such a great and long standing platform with their filth.(FC 2 anyone.) However, I am not above adding my number to the download queue to kill a few hours on a boring weekend.

That being said, I do buy games that are good: Stalker SoC/CS, SupCom, CoH, CoD4. All are recent games that come to mind that I both pirated and bought. Developers that do make good games do deserve my support. However, I am rather poor, so I do have to pick and chose.


RE: duh.
By Hieyeck on 12/11/2008 9:39:47 AM , Rating: 2
+1

You took the words out of my mouth. But I would like to add that - funny enough - the CD version of CoH was on sale at my store while the DVD wasn't. Of course I bought the CD version, but I kept my pirated DVD copy cause I can't be bothered to switch out 4 CDs. Not to mention games also install faster off a HDD.


RE: duh.
By Frallan on 12/11/2008 5:51:12 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed - Same here. I havn't bought the game and I havn't DL:d it. TBH that is probably EAs luck when it comes to me bc it means that i will be able to buy the next EA game instead of pirating.

Bought a couple of Sony CDs 3-4 years ago. Played em in the car wanted to play on computer - ROOTKIT! Since then i have steadfastly refused to buy anything from SONY music and will continue to do so. This is what would happen if EA fecked me over as well.


RE: duh.
By inighthawki on 12/10/2008 4:34:32 PM , Rating: 2
The major problem is that there is no way to tell how many people would've bought world of goo. It also doesn't help the sheer ease of pirating wiiware on the wii now, its even easier than cracking pc games. If you ask me, I think they are doing fine. If world of goo had any DRM attached to it, it would've been easily cracked anyway, without any effort by the pirate.

You have to look at world of goo for what it is, and what its not. And what it inst is a full blown multimillion dollar project like spore or far cry 2. Its not nearly as popular, and has absolutely no multiplayer to give any of the pirates real reasons to buy it.


RE: duh.
By AlexWade on 12/10/2008 5:12:08 PM , Rating: 4
The ultimate problem of DRM is that IT NEVER STOPS PIRACY! If I took my hand and punch a brick wall non-stop, you would say I'm crazy. Yet these corporations are doing something just as futile. DRM or no DRM, piracy is going to occur. Instead of constantly punching the brick wall, so to speak, why not do something effective to stop piracy? And along the way, why not give customers their alienable human rights, namely innocent until proven guilty?


RE: duh.
By Belard on 12/11/2008 2:18:56 AM , Rating: 4
Because EA is SUPID and greedy.

Developers really need to STOP going to EA to get their games to market. Its reducing the competition and costing them more money (lost).

SecureROM = NO SALE from me. At least 4-5 games are NOT on my purchase plans. The new one, Mirror's Edge. Saw the EA logo - which means SecureROM which means no sale. P E R I O D !

I paid $50 for the ultimate version of UT3 in the tin can. It had a User CD-KEY (since its multiplayer) and no CD (or DVD) is needed in the drive. So I play that game more than others that DO require a CD.


RE: duh.
By wempa on 12/11/2008 12:24:03 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I think not. While i am not a fan of DRM as a developer I understand compnies disire to protect their investments.


Ummm, you may want to take another look at the title of this article. Even WITH the DRM, Spore became the most pirated game in history. This obviously did very little to "protect" their investment. I am all for preventing casual copying of games, but the ridiculous DRM they implemented tramples on user rights tremendously and was totally unnecessary. Other companies can prevent casual copying by less invasive means. EA can do the same.


RE: duh.
By Chadder007 on 12/10/2008 4:02:29 PM , Rating: 2
<Nelson Laugh>
HA Haa!


RE: duh.
By mmntech on 12/10/2008 4:02:35 PM , Rating: 3
<sarcasm>How come Sins of a Solar Empire isn't on top? That game didn't have any DRM so it should have been the one pirated like crazy.</sarcasm>

Ironically, that was the game the big companies thought would be the top pirated title. DRM has little to do with preventing piracy though. It's all about getting consumers to buy multiple copies of the same item, and to shut down legitimate used game sales.


RE: duh.
By DukeN on 12/11/2008 11:04:48 AM , Rating: 3
That's ridiculous if they want to use DRM to prevent sales of used games. Too bad so many people are happy being lemmings and just getting a product for the sake of getting it.


RE: duh.
By kelmon on 12/10/2008 4:50:33 PM , Rating: 3
I will simply say that while I have not pirated Spore (or anything else, for that matter), I purposefully did not buy the game because of the DRM. So, while the DRM did not contribute to additional piracy in my case, it did lose EA a sale.

I will never condone piracy but I will certainly support anyone who votes with their wallet. DRM needs to take a long walk off a short cliff (preferably with spikes at the bottom) and not buying anything with it is the best way to get rid of it.


RE: duh.
By pcwhizzer on 12/10/2008 5:08:41 PM , Rating: 3
If you can stick it in your computer, IT WILL BE COPIED and torrented, PERIOD! Cannot be stopped and will not be.


RE: duh.
By PWNettle on 12/11/2008 4:03:34 PM , Rating: 2
This cracks me up.

If they can track how much a title is being pirated, why can't they do something about the pirates or torrent providers?

That or these stats are full of it.

Who'd want to play Bore anyways.


RE: duh.
By Raidin on 12/12/2008 2:28:01 PM , Rating: 2
I believe the tracking statistic is BY the pirate site.


I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Staples on 12/10/2008 3:53:50 PM , Rating: 5
Like the ones that prevent you from copying the CDs. But I think Spore has gone too far. However, for me, I do not have a sence of entitlement. I would like to play Spore but since the price is too expensive for a game that will probably only last me three installs, I will wait till the price falls to $20.

Yeah, that is right. I have not stolen it. Have we really raised a whole generation who thinks they are entitled to a product if there is something they do not like about it?




RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 3:59:51 PM , Rating: 5
I applaud you, sir (or madam, as the case may be).

However, in my eyes DRM that prevents the copying of the disk is also a fundamental infringement of the consumer's legal right to a backup copy of the product they bought.

I would be on-board with a DRM that did not...
1. Stop me from copying a legally-bought disk (so I have a backup)
2. Playing the game/music/whatever from a burned backup disk (made from a legally-bought original).
3. Limit the number of times I can install the thing.
4. In general, do anything that made me aware of it's presence - granted that I legally bought the product.

How do those things work their way into a DRM of any kind? I don't know. But that's not my problem. Legions of consumers are backlashing against DRM because of the issues above...that makes it the publishers' problem. It's costing them enormous amounts of money...they can recoup that money by not using DRM, or by inventing some kind of DRM that doesn't agitate based on those 4 points.

I have no such magic nor genius to tell your how such a DRM will work...all I can say is that DRM absolutely drives piracy while doing nothing at all to prevent it, and costs the publishers enormous amoounts of money in worthless R&D and lost sales. When I become aware that a product has DRM on it, I just don't buy it. The only one losing in that case is the publisher.


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By TheSpaniard on 12/10/2008 4:07:14 PM , Rating: 3
how could 1 & 2 being available stop people from just making a bunch of copies and distributing them?

if they want their DRM they need to understand that in NO WAY would I accept their program telling me what I can and cant have on my computer!

refusing to run on a computer "pirate programs" is the same as being incompatible and they should have written on the box will not run if you have any CD copying software or virtual drive software


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 4:10:34 PM , Rating: 2
...as noted, I have no idea how #1 and #2 would prevent disk copiers from making and distributing unlimited physical copies of the software...

There may be other ways to control it though. Registration numbers, online accounts, etc. Look at World of Warcraft...having a copy of the CD does you no good if you don't have an online account. Just an example off the top of my head. I would imagine Blizzard could care less if there are a million illicit physical copies of the CD floating around...without an account, you can't use it.


By TheSpaniard on 12/10/2008 8:11:24 PM , Rating: 2
yea I see where you are going but:

online activation for me is a huge bust... I play some of my games from 1995 and a lot of those companys are out of buisness

plus what if I want to sell my copy? I would prefer for them to require DVD-checks and not let me copy the DVD than make me go online to activate it


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Sandok on 12/10/2008 4:08:52 PM , Rating: 1
It costs them more not to protect their software. Piracy is out of control on the PC, even for decent games (World of Goo) which have no anti-piracy DRM crap.

I'm much more of a console gamer now because of this, it just sickens me how people pirate games that we KNOW costs millions to develop without any regard. I wait for the bargin bin or play the games at a friends.

Companies like EA are trying to do what they can to combat the pirates and DRM is such a thing. It's the PC enthousiast who brought it upon himself and as pirates download and crack more and more games, well those games will get worse and worse DRM...

It's not the developpers who've got to take the first step here, tis the pirates.


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 4:12:54 PM , Rating: 2
I respectfully disagree. Sure, a DRM-free disk is easy to copy...but so is a DRMd disk. Legitimate buyers will be far more likely to purchase a DRM-free game, whereas they will refuse to put up with DRM - meaning that the R&D cost the publisher spent on DRM is costing them even more in lost sales.

It is my confident assertion that a publisher will sell more, and make more revenue and profit, from a non-DRMd item than from a DRMd item.


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By ET on 12/10/2008 4:50:45 PM , Rating: 2
I think a recent survey showed that the vast majority of game players don't even have an idea what DRM is, and I'm inclined to believe this.

People copied games before DRM, and they'd copy them regardless of DRM. It's easy, socially acceptable, and there's no chance of getting punished for it. It's surprising that people actually buy games.


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Sandok on 12/21/2008 4:39:44 AM , Rating: 2
I agree with ET, most people don't even know which games have DRM and which don't... The large majority of people just want free software...

I sincerely doubt that the few gamers who do know that a game isn't loaded with DRM (and thus buy it legally) will make up the losses suffered by the pirates.


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Gzus666 on 12/10/2008 5:15:12 PM , Rating: 2
So you wait for the bargain bin or play games that other people bought for free to help the developers? If you don't buy the damn game anyway, it didn't help them any that you didn't pirate it and it wouldn't hurt them any if you pirated it.

The more like computers consoles get, the more they will be pirated. Need to get used to something as abstract as software will be pirated, people still buy the stuff, they just want more. People who pirate weren't going to buy the game anyway, so it isn't a lost sale, it is a sale they were hoping to get.


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By robinthakur on 12/11/2008 5:51:32 AM , Rating: 2
I agree that piracy is out of control on the PC and has been at least as long as I've been into games (like 15 years). A long time before Spore was released, it was cracked and distributed. The same happens with every major release, regardless of the DRM method used. I think that honestly, and as unpopular as it might sound, game publishers should only publish to PC if its a simple port with very little dev work involved or if you have a revenue model which can withstand the game being heavily pirated. 99% of people who are technically aware enough to even get a pc game to work will just download it despite their protestations to the contrary (see note from COD4 developer on what percentage of people were playing online with a cracked copy). The publishers no longer see the rule as 'innocent until proven guilty' and instead see any pc gamer as a potential criminal.

Having said that, why would any rational person pay for the inconvenience of these highly publicised anti-piracy methods when they can get it downloaded for free within a couple hours/days? The nice artwork? A manual? Another DVD case to eventually chuck in the landfill? Unfinished buggy software, shoved out of the door to claw back the dev costs by the publisher more like.

Bit torrent is so prevalent now and is so simple to use that I honestly can't see anyone who knows how to use it not doing so. You are unlikely to get caught, and you have an infinite catalogue of free entertainment to plunder, and most importantly people have the validation of seeing millions of others doing it worldwide. Piracy is now in the majority and most people I know haven't bought a cd or a dvd since the mid 90's. They do however buy console games/Blu Ray discs because pirating them is more inconvenient and because you aren't hassled by the software once you've bought it. On top of that, the conditions of the EULA on most software is pretty irrelevant to your ordinary consumer even if they were smart enough to understand or read it prior to installation. They will do whatever is convenient and cost effective.

I don't think the software companies are helping themselves by progressing this idea of selling a service (a license to use the game 5 times or whatever) rather than what in the past was tantamount to "owning the software itself" with very few limitations they are trying to affect a sea-change in the way we pay for and use software. Will this help their bottom line? Yes it will. Like that tax software recently which now only allows you to file one printed return versus previous versions which were not as limited, companies are warming to the fact that consumers will put up with nearly anything if you have them over a barrel. The RIAA/MPAA would like you to purchase a seperate copy of dvd's for the kids bedrooms and the car and a seperate version of a song for your ring tone rather than ripping it from the cd you bought. Its all a great idea from their perspective as it gives them far more control over making sure that the EULA is respected and enforced.

Is it in the consumer's interests, as in you and me? No it most definitely is not and I won't give my money to support it for this reason because I'm not a software publisher. The average consumer cares not that some software cost millions to develop, its not their money. In fact, the more it costs, the better it would feel to be playing it for free unencumbered by the pesky DRM that the legitimate users have to put up with, surely?


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Gorfy on 12/11/2008 9:26:49 AM , Rating: 2
Torrents? ...rofl... amateurs...

Ever heard of Rapidshare?


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By samoak54 on 12/17/2008 12:28:22 AM , Rating: 2
/rs/ ftw!


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By King of Heroes on 12/10/2008 4:54:01 PM , Rating: 3
I think 1). and 2). are too unreasonable.

I think it would be sufficient to simply encrypt the disc (using standardized and easy to implement techniques like 256-bit AES), and using the provided, and randomly generated, registration code to unlock and install. It'll be up to the customer to not be dumb and keep their disc in a safe and easy to find place (if I spend money on something, I generally try to make sure I don't lose it).

BUT, accidents happen. So I think, you should have the option (it shouldn't be required) of creating a registration account through you which you can request additional discs should you lose them, paying only the cost of postage. This provides security to the customer, and builds a database of used registration codes to better combat illegally copied discs (of course, the NSA will crap some serious bricks if some pirate was able to break 256-bit AES encryption).


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By inighthawki on 12/10/2008 4:58:55 PM , Rating: 2
Once the game is installed, i would imagine it would not be too hard to simply keep track of any installed registry entries, then just create your own installer based on changed registry and the installed files, and now the encrypted disc is useless.


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By King of Heroes on 12/10/2008 5:10:29 PM , Rating: 2
Thats true. I bring up disc encryption because I think its powerful enough to block out most people, and tame enough that most people won't feel like the game makers are treating them like thieves. AES encryption is also royalty-free, so theres no extra cost to the software developers to implement it.

I've no doubt theres ways to circumvent it, but I think its good enough.


By inighthawki on 12/10/2008 5:14:25 PM , Rating: 2
OK i see your point, i slightly misunderstood and took that more as a way to stop redistribution. I agree it would probably stop many of the more casual pirates and bad pirating groups who only know how to run a disc through a tool to make an ISO. It wouldn't stop them all, but that isn't a half bad idea to limit its availability.


By haukionkannel on 12/11/2008 2:54:57 PM , Rating: 2
Yep. I think so too! Those who pirate, will pirate... period. Even simple copy protection prevents normal people from doing it. And it does not havoc normal customers who wants to own product that deserves to be owned, like DRM instead does.
I have many old games that I like to play and allso many new (all leagal) but I am not willing to buy harmfull products woluntary to my computer.
It's pity that some good products will be forgotten because they are protected in a way that harms the computer. There is now sense in that at all.
The big problem is that you can not know, if the program has an DRM on it or not. I am somewhat scared of buing new games until I am sure, that they are DRM free. It feels like loading troyan horse to your machine...

Is there any place in the internet, with full list of games that are DRM free and those who are infested by it? It would help a lot a customer like me to chose what to buy, and what not!


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 5:22:15 PM , Rating: 2
I have to disagree with your assertion that 1 & 2 are unreasonable - although I have bought plenty of games with "uncopyable" disks, in as much as Nero refuses to copy it.

The consumer has a legal right to make a backup copy of a game, music CD, movie, whatever. The publisher "promising" that they'll ship you a replacement isn't the same thing...at a bare minimum, there's some period of time during which you can't use the product you paid for, and you know you're going to get McCarthied when you call in for a replacement in the first place.

I, for one, am dumbfounded that it is considered legal in the first place for publishers to copy-protect an optical disk...granted that the law explicitly provides consumers the right to make a backup. It seems to me that it should be illegal for anyone to take any action intended to interfere with someone else's ability to engage in a law-given right.


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 5:24:25 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention...please keep in mind that optical disks are *not* permanent storage devices. They deteriorate over time...even if never used, such that in X number of years your pristine copy of <whatever> will no longer work anyway. If you don't have a backup of your legally-purchased disk, now you're just plain screwed.

...not to mention when the dog gets ahold of it.


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By plonk420 on 12/10/2008 7:56:07 PM , Rating: 1
...because it shouldn't be your fault the dog got ahold of your disc


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By inighthawki on 12/10/2008 5:24:46 PM , Rating: 2
its not illegal to back something up, its illegal to bypass drm or security restrictions, which is why the DMCA needs a little revising


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Gzus666 on 12/10/2008 5:28:06 PM , Rating: 2
I think his point was they are infringing on your right to make the copy with that restriction, which is illegal in the first place.


RE: I do not mind most DRM schemes
By Nighteye2 on 12/10/2008 7:16:10 PM , Rating: 2
Well, they basically turn it into a rental instead of a purchase. So, for games with this kind of DRM, you shouldn't pay the €50,- purchase price, but instead wait until the price drops to €5,- which is a suitable rental price.

With the limited installs I am effectively unable to buy the game - I can only rent it until the installs are used up. Therefore, I pay rental price, not purchase price. Even if I have to wait a few months for the game to hit the bargain bins where they sell for rental price.


Yawn
By Pirks on 12/10/2008 4:29:35 PM , Rating: 1
Whatever...

Just let PC gaming die peacefully, pirates will finish the job pretty quick I guess.

"R.I.P. PC exclusives!" (C) Cevat Yerli, Crytek GmbH




RE: Yawn
By King of Heroes on 12/10/2008 4:43:04 PM , Rating: 2
I think we'll keep seeing PC exclusives from independent studios, simply because the PC is easier and cheaper to develop for than a console. We'll stop seeing exclusives from the big time private companies who have thousands and thousands of dollar to throw at its production.

In other words, we'll stop seeing PC exclusives of bleeding edge titles like Crysis. But titles like Sins of a Solar Empire will still be around.


RE: Yawn
By Pirks on 12/10/2008 5:37:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
we'll stop seeing PC exclusives of bleeding edge titles like Crysis
And that's the end of PC gaming as we knew it. No more need to buy powerful GPUs or overclock anything. It's good for our wallets but PC is not the locomotive of game graphics anymore. Although I'll save a few hundred bucks on a new shiny nVidia GPU, I will definitely miss good old days of Crysis-like big-budget blockbusters.

No more fancy rendering, no more blazingly cool photorealistic-to-your-bones stuff to enjoy on screen, just same old puny-console-GPU-limits-bound picture on screen.

Sigh.

I'd rather pay nVidia $300 every year instead of this. Seriosusly.


RE: Yawn
By Gzus666 on 12/10/2008 5:46:02 PM , Rating: 2
Won't happen, Nvidia, ATI and Intel have way too much to lose in the fall of PC gaming.


RE: Yawn
By Pirks on 12/10/2008 6:16:40 PM , Rating: 2
They won't because GPUs are quickly turning into GPGPUs these days (OpenCL, Larrabee and DX11 computing shaders are early signs). No need to sell gaming GPU cards if potential market for "generalized" (GPGPU) hardware is way bigger.

R.I.P. PC GPU as we knew ya. New king named GPGPU is coming, and not to improve PC gaming graphics, unfortunately.

You can thank all those DRM-bashing morons who stole Spore and many other games for that.

Think about it every time you hiss and spit at DRM while busliy stealing PC games through torrents.


RE: Yawn
By inighthawki on 12/10/2008 7:49:48 PM , Rating: 2
That's nonsense. While they are becoming more useful in the "GP"GPU category, there is no sign of PC games leaving anytime soon.


RE: Yawn
By Pirks on 12/10/2008 9:25:35 PM , Rating: 2
I meant big-budget PC exclusives that push rendering technology limits, not PC games in general. Mind the difference please.


RE: Yawn
By inighthawki on 12/10/2008 9:42:25 PM , Rating: 2
Thats also what i meant, most of the biggest hits are multi-platform. You have no proof to backup your claims since there are still plenty of high quality PC releases coming.


RE: Yawn
By Pirks on 12/10/2008 9:51:07 PM , Rating: 2
High quality PC multiplatform/console ports coming or high quality PC exclusives coming? See any difference between these two?


RE: Yawn
By inighthawki on 12/10/2008 10:11:55 PM , Rating: 2
If they really wanted to push the gfx to THE limit, it will almost certainly be for pc, maybe or maybe not exclusive. But no console out there will ever top a pc in terms of graphics power. Once a console is built, u dont upgrade the capabilities thats one of its perks, and downsides as well. If you think for a second there won't be any more high quality pc exclusive games, ill laugh on the inside at you, but only time will tell who's right.


RE: Yawn
By Pirks on 12/10/2008 11:04:06 PM , Rating: 2
Who would they push limits for? For pirates who scream about DRM on this forum while busily stealing games from torrents? There's not enough paying customers left to sustain big blockbuster PC gaming industry anymore, it's been killed by pirates.

All big guys like Valve, Epic, id, Bungee, Starbreeze and others deflected to consoles and multiplatform ports from console to PC and Crytek was the last one to follow the suit when the Crysis sales were killed by pirates/torrents. But even those ports will dry up eventually (where's Halo 3 for PC, The Darkness for PC, Uncharted for PC, GeoW 2 for PC?)

You can laugh all you want, who cares. Developers need $$$ to feed themselves, and PC users steal games, hence no big budget for them. All big budgets are now either in console exclusives (Halo 3, GeoW 2, The Darkness, Uncharted, etc) or in multiplatform console ports to PC (Dead Space, Fallout 3) This is simple economics, man. You care about gfx and about THE limit, but guess what? They (developers) don't. They only care about paying customers, and with torrents PC customers are not paying, hence R.I.P. guys, you fcked yourself with your torrents.

Enjoy this while you can. When consoles are here - no torrents will help you stupid DRM bashers.

P.S. ah, there's of course WoW, now we should not forget about _that_ PC exclusive, should we? Yeah, right, _THAT_ one will push gfx limits BIG TIME. Har har har :))))))


RE: Yawn
By inighthawki on 12/10/2008 11:07:32 PM , Rating: 2
You mean epic, who is a loyal PC game developer? and valve who is based almost entirely on pc games? HL2, TF2, DODS, etc etc are all originally PC games, generally with "not-so-great" console ports. Bad examples


RE: Yawn
By Pirks on 12/11/2008 1:25:35 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I mean Epic, the maker of not so PC friendly AKA console exclusive GeoW 2. And I mean Valve who doesn't produce PC exclusives anymore. You're right that their games _WERE ORIGINALLY_ PC exclusives, but how many years ago have passed since that time? See, just a few simple questions which may kick start your thinking. Or may not :-)


RE: Yawn
By StevoLincolnite on 12/11/2008 1:15:28 AM , Rating: 2
Well PC gaming *Wont* die if Developers used there head a little better.

Oblivion and Fallout 3 had respectable sales considering there is very little DRM present, and on the PC it's "The way it's meant to be played" - in my opinion.

Then you have MMORPGS, which are highly accessible on the PC, World of WarCraft showed this, as did Everquest.

And RTS Games, StarCraft is a National Korean Sport, and has had excellent life considering it is 10 years old, and StarCraft 2 will be a PC exclusive, which many gamers would probably jump on.

Hows about Developers start creating Steam-Like platforms which discourage pirates? - Sure it wont stop them, but it -IS- an excellent platform.

One of the advantages of the PC that developers (Besides Valve) haven't realized is that people shouldn't have to drive to a store that sells games, they love to use Torrents to download it, so why not take advantage of that? Set up a Download System similar to World of WarCraft patch system.
Where you pay for the game once, and then you can download the game using the Torrent Protocol as many times as you want with very minimal server costs, and excellent speeds.

Plus they can effectively cut the middle man out and increase profits, and there is no Packaging or the manufacturing of the media/packaging as well as Shipping/Transportation costs and mark-ups that are placed upon the product either.

Developers are "Crying Foul" over Pirating, but seriously they need to look at the under-lying technology that the Pirates are using and USE IT to an advantage.

Am I the only person who see's this as a solution?


RE: Yawn
By Pirks on 12/11/2008 2:18:11 AM , Rating: 2
Stevo, I don't see any signs of recover despite all your good words about electronic distribution. All efforts of Valve and EA do NOTHING to stop piracy. Look at Spore - did EA efforts to curb piracy with electronic distribution produce any results? Did Steam do anything to stop all this game torrent sharing? I wish you were right Stevo, but looking at the market I see how every single PC game is viciously pirated right after release, no matter was it published on Steam or not, did it have DRM or not, or any other thing. Why do you think ubiquitous electronic ditribution will change anything?


RE: Yawn
By Bateluer on 12/11/2008 8:37:12 AM , Rating: 2
Digital distribution like Steam and Impulse are the future and will change the landscape. Large scale publishers like EA, Activation Blizzard, and Ubi Soft will shrink and fall by the wayside.

Applications like Steam and Impulse are merely the first step in allowing developers to sell their products directly to the consumer and reap nearly all the profit for themselves. Ideally, the Steam and Impulse platforms would be managed by some sort of nonprofit organization or coalition of developers and not a single developer or publisher.


RE: Yawn
By kalak on 12/11/2008 2:47:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I see how every single PC game is viciously pirated right after release


BS ! Pure BS !

every single <PC/Wii/PS3/NDS/put a name> game is pirated nowadays... It's not a "PC problem"...


RE: Yawn
By Pirks on 12/11/2008 5:25:32 PM , Rating: 2
Hahahaaa, PS3 games being pirated??!!

Really funny post.

Got something else as funny and idiotic as that? Don't hesitate, share your jokes with us. You may even make yourself look a bit less stupid in the process, who knows ;-)

P.S. here's a suggestion - tell us a story about Xbox 360 games being pirated on those new Xboxes with non-programmmable DVD-ROM firmware. That's gotta be even more idiotic joke, so go ahead kiddo, entertain us all!


RE: Yawn
By Fritzr on 12/16/2008 12:09:30 AM , Rating: 2
In the 80s and 90s when cartridge games for home computers were a popular way to prevent copying there were copiers that put an image of the cartridge on disk to use with a generic cartridge that used RAM instead of ROM. For programs that could detect this there were also copiers that saved the current memory state of the computer and could load that from disk.

The copy protection wars have been ongoing. I started with VIC-20 & C-64. Toward the end of the copy protection period for Commodore systems they were even selling a memory expansion to allow the drives to handle the latest cracking software.

The install 5 times and you're done is also nothing new. I saw that in 1987 on a simple office suite. The work around was to either edit the disk sector that the install modified or copy the disks and install from the backup copies.

It was proven many years ago that the only DRM that actually works is to require the user to ask the company for permission to use the program. This takes many forms, but always requires that the company that produced the program either be in business supporting it or that they pass the responsibility on to another agency. Once you can no longer ask permission you can no longer use the software.

Several of the music download sites use this form of DRM. When the site folds you are stuck with whatever you have...no more transfers or reinstalls of anything you purchased.


RE: Yawn
By Reclaimer77 on 12/11/2008 8:57:23 AM , Rating: 2
Only teenage console fanbois think Pc gaming will " die ".


RE: Yawn
By FITCamaro on 12/11/2008 8:51:21 AM , Rating: 2
Halo 3 for PC is coming. The Darkness sucked. Uncharted wasn't big enough to warrant porting. And GoW2 is coming as well.

Honestly, I've gotten into more of a console gaming groove anyway. It's a lot more fun to sit on the couch and play. Yes, the PC will always be better for certain titles. But for a lot of games, I just like to sit on my comfy couch and play. Now maybe if I ever hook up my PC to my TV, that'll change. But haven't done that yet.


RE: Yawn
By Pirks on 12/11/2008 12:03:45 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah FIT suuure Halo's coming, GeoW's coming, everything is coming. I'd like to share your sweet dreams but unfortunately I can't get away from sober reality.

Reclaimer didn't understand what I was saying when he said that PC gaming is not gonna *die*. I'll let him read my posts again and think some more.

Bateluer:
And ubiquituous digital distribution where Steam and EA Store replace everyone else is going to stop PC piracy how? Nobody answers to this simple question of mine, and I know why :-) Keep your sweet dreams about "title XXXYYYZZZ is cooooming to PC suuuure" and "Steam will kill all the pirates just like that", guys, I'm outta here, back to harsh reality. Can't take your hallucination inducing drugs, unfortunately.


RE: Yawn
By King of Heroes on 12/12/2008 9:31:22 AM , Rating: 2
Don't worry. Morons like you have been proclaiming the death of PC games for years and years and years. It happened when the Playstation 2 came out, it happened when the Playstation 3/X-Box 360/Wii came out. It will continue far into the future.

And guess what? PC gaming will still be around, despite what you'd love to believe. Its making millions in America and Europe, and BILLIONS in Asia.

The "PC Gaming is dead and theres nothing you can do about it" mantra largely comes from people who were too stupid and/or incompetent to handle PC games, and are using it as a justification for jumping (obviously, not EVERYONE is like that, but the ones who are, like Pirks, are easy to point out).

So keep playing your console games, we'll keep playing our PC games. In a year from now, PC games will still be around and you'll still be ranting about its inevitable demise. So goes the Circle of Stupidity.


RE: Yawn
By Pirks on 12/12/2008 12:05:07 PM , Rating: 2
King of Heroes can't read, same diagnosis as for Reclaimer.
Please join Reclaimer in careful re-reading of my posts.
Stop spewing non-related BS until you get it. Thank you.


By King of Heroes on 12/10/2008 4:26:09 PM , Rating: 5
I realize this is simply the consumer saying: "HEY! WE DON'T LIKE THIS!"

But, seriously, pirating the heck out of this game will not accomplish anything. If anything, this will convince software makers that DRM needs to be reinforced even more. They'll simply interpret this has: "Every single pirated copy is a lost sale. Those lost sales could've been prevented if DRM was stronger."

Is this true? No.

Does that make any sense? No.

But to software makers, it doesn't NEED to make sense. It only needs to be backed up by evidence that they can twist to their liking, and MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF ILLEGAL PIRATING is just right for that.

I will say it again, the only #1 surefire way for consumers to tell producers to go screw themselves is to not buy or use their product at all. Nobody buys it, nobody plays it. Not only do they lose sales, they lose marketshare, they lose word of mouth, they lose advertisement money, THEY LOSE THE MORAL HIGH GROUND. Its a much stronger message to say:

"I am against this practice, and I will demonstrate my disgust by having nothing to do with your company or any product you produce."

That takes discipline, because that game might be really fun to play. But you're trying to send a message here, so you have to suck it up. Compare that to this:

"I am against this practice, and I will demonstrate my disgust by engaging in an even WORSE practice and undermine any moral credibility I may have."

Back this up by supporting companies that are against DRM. Reward them for being against this practice. Stardock is a great example. They rejected DRM and it mostly worked. Unfortunately, some people STILL pirated the game, and that is really extremely sad. I know there are other examples, but they escape me at the moment.




By King of Heroes on 12/10/2008 4:27:53 PM , Rating: 2
World of Goo is what I was thinking of (thanks to above posters who brought it up). Another DRM free game that got the crap pirated out of it. This is not how you reward people who do what you want.


By Motoman on 12/10/2008 4:32:30 PM , Rating: 2
What you have to look at is the amount of money they spent on DRM (none) and the number of people who legally bought the product.

I'm afraid I know nothing about that game, how many people bought it, what the piracy rate looks like, etc. But I'd be willing to bet that their lack of "investment" in DRM wound up giving them a better bottom line in the long run.


By Bateluer on 12/11/2008 9:17:01 AM , Rating: 3
World of Goo had its piracy numbers vastly inflated because of poorly implemented methods of counting the pirates. Its actual piracy numbers are up for debate.

Sadly, this is a common problem with counting piracy numbers. Since publishers usually don't disclose the full sales figures for their products and pirates are exactly in any hurry to raise their hands and say they're pirating their games.


By Noliving on 12/12/2008 8:07:02 AM , Rating: 2
No they were not vastly inflated. As much as you want to believe that they were not.


By inighthawki on 12/10/2008 4:47:09 PM , Rating: 2
And its a darn shame that someone like EA is too flat out dumb to see that more DRM = more pirating. Its a trend that has shown more than once.


By 999 on 12/10/2008 5:17:45 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed, it's a vicious circle of stupidity. They add worse drm, it get's pirated more, so they add even worse drm, rinse, repeat. No drm is ever going to protect a game, they're always going to be pirated to some extent.

But the worse it gets, the bigger the gap in terms of quality of experience between those who bought and those who got the cracked version, the more it's going to be pirated. So it's essentially a double whammy in terms of losing money. Cost of drm + lost sales you might have had + extra costs in terms of supporting issues with drm = dumb.

There are better models out there for protection without trampling on users, such as Steam. It's not perfect by any means, but it's much better then a lot of the crap they're using.


By kelmon on 12/10/2008 4:59:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I realize this is simply the consumer saying: "HEY! WE DON'T LIKE THIS!"


The cynic in me simply interprets the piracy of Spore (and everything else) as "HEY! FREE STUFF!". I'd like to think it was some sort of protest at DRM but I'm pretty sure it's mostly as a result of people who think that the world owes them a free lunch.

I really hate DRM but I think the likes of The Pirate Bay and those who use it to download copyrighted materials are a bunch of wankers who need a good, stern, kicking.

If you want to protest, you absolutely should abstain from the product/service/whatever completely.


By King of Heroes on 12/10/2008 5:12:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The cynic in me simply interprets the piracy of Spore (and everything else) as "HEY! FREE STUFF!".


Hah.

Well, yeah, I think that goes without saying. But for the sake of discussion its probably better to assume (read: hope) that theres some kind of message there (yeah, right).


By Motoman on 12/10/2008 5:29:41 PM , Rating: 2
There will always be a constant supply of suckworthy people who will steal stuff. First of all, eff them...second of all, there's nothing you can do about them.

The audience we're looking for with this is the group of people who would, under weight of their own desire to be *good* people, would prefer to legally purchase something, but won't do so at the expense of their rights and/or liberties being trodden upon. That is a variable group, which varies in population proportionately with the severity of the DRM. The stronger the DRM irritant, the larger the group of people who *would* have paid for the product, but opted not to because of the DRM.

This group approaches a population of zero as the DRM becomes a non-irritant...and the population is zero when there is no DRM at all.

No DRM FTW!


By Frallan on 12/11/2008 7:22:18 AM , Rating: 2
Very well reasoned and written - I also concur fully with your post.


By Frallan on 12/11/2008 7:17:32 AM , Rating: 2
It is partly (the same who always says so) the "YAY Free stuff" ppl and partly (larger for Spore then any game b4) the "Go Sodomize yourself with a retractable baton EA"-group.

I belong to the second grouping and ave abstained entirely from Spore bc of the DRM - however if I would get a sudden urge to play Id pirate it bc of the DRM.

Also I spend between 50€ and 100€ a month on games so Im a good customer in my case it is not the money but the DRM and only the DRM.


By svenkesd on 12/11/2008 11:09:13 AM , Rating: 1
I think you meant to say

"DRM is wrong, butt piracy won't accomplish anything."

I agree with that.


Shareware
By Spivonious on 12/10/2008 3:50:23 PM , Rating: 3
Whatever happened to shareware? I remember getting a copy of Wolfenstein 3D from a friend and playing through the whole first episode. They encouraged you to spread it around. If you wanted to play the rest of the episodes, you had to pay Apogee/iD to unlock the other episodes.

I think if demos were more widely available, fewer people would feel the need to pirate. And not just little 10 minute demos or "gameplay videos". Give me the entire first section of the game for free. If it's good enough, you can be sure I'll pay for the rest to find out what happens.

Also, game companies need to accept that some people will pirate no matter what. These silly copy-protection devices only hurt legitimate buyers. I remember my copy of F.E.A.R., purchased in a store, only loaded up 20% of the time because of a bug in it's copy protection. The protection was later disabled by a patch.




RE: Shareware
By Gzus666 on 12/10/2008 3:59:42 PM , Rating: 2
Good old shareware. I remember the good old days of getting up at 3 in the morning to go down to the geek sale that would happen once a month out in a lot they rented and everyone had booths setup to sell stuff and give out shareware disks.

Wolfenstein 3D, Blake Stone, Cosmo, Jill of the Jungle, Jazz Jackrabbit, Duke Nukem, Commander Keen, those were the good old days.


RE: Shareware
By Spivonious on 12/10/2008 4:19:59 PM , Rating: 2
Ah, I forgot about Blake Stone. I remember getting a CD at a computer show that had something like 500 shareware games on it and Blake Stone was one of them.

Today's games just don't have any style.


RE: Shareware
By theslug on 12/10/2008 5:03:21 PM , Rating: 2
Because they have substance instead?


RE: Shareware
By Spivonious on 12/11/2008 12:31:33 PM , Rating: 2
Shoo young'un. The old guys are having their fun. ;)


RE: Shareware
By Gzus666 on 12/10/2008 5:43:52 PM , Rating: 2
Mine were all on floppies. 5.25 first, then 3.5 of course. Good times. Nothing like getting a rubber banded group of floppies for one shareware game, ha.


Outsider View
By Glavinsolo on 12/10/2008 4:41:15 PM , Rating: 2
If I were EA, I would do the following:

1. End DRM in our products
2. Create a Steam clone for all EA games
3. Offer hard copies of our products along with digital downloads
4. Offer digital download of our product at a discount to hard copy, forcing people to consider digital download
5. Slowly phase out hard copy and only have it available for console systems

Anyone can tell you how to pirate a game. I'd say a great deal of us have done it in the past. However, I think a great deal of pirating comes from the want it now generation. Pirating is free and you get it immediately but this comes with guilt.

Digital downloads are the solution.




RE: Outsider View
By ET on 12/10/2008 4:55:46 PM , Rating: 2
4. Offer digital download of our product at a discount to hard copy, forcing people to consider digital download

I don't think there's any need for this from the publisher side. It's desirable from the consumer side, but Steam shows that selling at the retail price is acceptable by game buyers.

BTW, EA already has its products for digital download at its online store (http://eastore.ea.com/store/ea/DisplayCategoryList...


RE: Outsider View
By mherlund on 12/10/2008 5:08:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
2. Create a Steam clone for all EA games

Everyone criticized Steam when it came out and a lot of people would not get Half Life 2 because of it. Now people think Steam is OK, soon DRM will be accepted too, until something worse than DRM comes out.

PS. I am not condoning Steam or DRM


RE: Outsider View
By CyborgTMT on 12/10/2008 5:46:17 PM , Rating: 5
Personally I've always loved Steam.

-I can have all my Steam purchased games installed on every pc I have
-All games are automatically updated
-Built in anti-cheat
-Integrated server browser for Valve games
-Built in backup
-10 years later I can still install/play a game I purchased from Valve (HL1)
-No physical media in my drives to play

The only downside I've ever had with Steam is when I couldn't log in to their servers due to a firewall, but then again I shouldn't have been gaming at work anyway.


RE: Outsider View
By Visk on 12/10/2008 7:02:35 PM , Rating: 2
Offline mode, baby!


Summary of posts
By lennylim on 12/10/2008 3:58:38 PM , Rating: 4
This should cover 95% of posts here:

1. DRM sucks, Spore deserves to be pirated
2. Piracy is still wrong
3. Spore is great
3. Spore sucks

Did I miss anything?




RE: Summary of posts
By novacthall on 12/10/2008 4:05:14 PM , Rating: 2
Appendix A: Addendum to Summary of Posts

5. Posts summarizing a types of posts for any given article.


RE: Summary of posts
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 4:05:35 PM , Rating: 1
Forgot to bash Apple. And Microsoft. Need some inane comment about Crysis. PLAYSTATION THREE has to show up and puke up some mind-bending gibberish. Also need a rickroll, a bukket, and Everywhere Girl just to be on the safe side.


RE: Summary of posts
By Bateluer on 12/10/2008 4:29:01 PM , Rating: 2
You forget the standard call to boycott EA. That usually shows up in DRM threads, and for good reason.


RE: Summary of posts
By walk2k on 12/10/08, Rating: -1
RE: Summary of posts
By DASQ on 12/10/2008 5:58:59 PM , Rating: 2
I'm with what should be 4. here.

Huge disappointment. A game that was half a decade in development gave me not even a night's worth of entertainment.


DRM Doesn't work
By kinnoch on 12/10/2008 4:26:07 PM , Rating: 2
Shouldn't this show them that DRM doesn't work? What is the point of having the DRM if the pirates can still pirate the game?

I don't support pirating software, but I also don't like how DRM only punishes the innocent. So if DRM doesn't stop piracy, then why punish the innocent?




RE: DRM Doesn't work
By xsilver on 12/10/2008 5:37:56 PM , Rating: 2
wouldnt that be like saying:
"oh well seat belts and airbags dont save all lives - why bother having them?"


RE: DRM Doesn't work
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 5:43:14 PM , Rating: 2
If seat belts and airbags were to be proper analogues of DRM, they'd kill people of their own accord. Even if driving something other than a Honda.

Ba-dum-dum.


RE: DRM Doesn't work
By xsilver on 12/10/2008 7:09:52 PM , Rating: 2
I didnt mean for it to be a exact analogue but if you look at it from the view of EA rather than the consumer, they're damned if they do, damned if they dont.
Just like car makers know that people are going to die anyways even if they put seatbelts and airbags in.
EA knows people are going to pirate even with DRM in.

A view of removing DRM being a savior is a deluded view imo.


RE: DRM Doesn't work
By Motoman on 12/10/2008 8:01:27 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, it still doesn't work for me.

ALL games will be pirated, whether they have DRM or not. Not once, ever, nor will there ever be, a game with DRM that is not pirated. 100% failure rate. Guaranteed.

One would like to think that seat belts and airbags have something better than a 0% save rate ;)

Also, I am very confident that the publisher is losing out big time on additional sales by having DRM on their product. They lose large amounts of money on the DRM itself, then lose vast amounts of money due to lost sales because they put it on there. If they didn't put it on there, they wouldn't have it's costs or it's negative impact on sales.

That isn't a "dammed if you do or don't" thing...it's a "damend if you do" thing. So my message is...don't.


It maybe that time
By Imaginer on 12/10/2008 7:19:47 PM , Rating: 2
...to completely have the PC platform (and any derivative platforms) as a whole have an authentication login user-id card system, akin to the smart card to not only access your system and desktop profiles, but a way to tie it to your software purchases and uses (similar to online game accounts) and that with the ordering of the software and first usage the software is tied with that login user.

Sounds similar to TPM or the CPUID that is brought up in the past? True, but this solution applies regardless if your hardware or software changes. Not to mention the devil's advocate says this will eliminate anonymous online access and the potential tracking...

It would essentially negate most to all piracy efforts, electronic identity thefts due to login information, and a way to start centralizing identification... but there is the big brother devil's advocate of all things.




RE: It maybe that time
By Emryse on 12/10/2008 7:47:57 PM , Rating: 2
It will NEVER be that time - at least while my body has life.


RE: It maybe that time
By kyleb2112 on 12/11/2008 2:00:13 AM , Rating: 2
You left out the sharks with the frickin' laser beams.


RE: It maybe that time
By killerb255 on 12/12/2008 1:42:25 PM , Rating: 2
O o
/¯________________________
| IMMA FIRIN' MAH? LAZOR!!!
\_¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯

O o
/¯/________________________
| BLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHH!
\_\¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯


RE: It maybe that time
By killerb255 on 12/12/2008 1:45:32 PM , Rating: 2
In all seriousness, most people would be opposed to that.

People have no problems implementing things that protect them from others (alarm systems, door locks) or their children from themselves (various child safety devices), but will not put anything in place to "protect" themselves from their own actions.


Why they are doing this..
By excelsium on 12/12/2008 4:17:01 AM , Rating: 2
1. Purposefully increasing the piracy 'problem' in order to do things like get draconian anti-piracy laws passed, more media attention.
2. Increase sales by making the consumer buy more than one copy because they ran out of installs.
3. Increase sales by making more consumers buy a copy - their friends are less likely to share their copy with them.




RE: Why they are doing this..
By excelsium on 12/12/2008 4:20:20 AM , Rating: 2
4. Increase sales by killing the used games market.


RE: Why they are doing this..
By Belard on 12/14/2008 4:39:48 AM , Rating: 2
Ya know... you're right!

Kind of like how Some in the music business (Madonna is one) who wanted to kill off the used-CD market.

But its kind of like this. I'm sure they (EA) lose more money in the extra piracy and loss of sales than anything they THINK they would have "lost" from the used/discount game market. Once a game is 1-2+ years old, those game are regulated into the $5~10 bins. Look at UT2004, 2 years ago it was $20 with UnrealII included. They made their money.


I'm a ANTI PIRATE
By Smilin on 12/10/2008 5:51:40 PM , Rating: 5
Yep, a ANTI pirate.

I've got a CD rack full of games that looks like an audiophile's music collection. My steam client scrolls for two pages on a 1920 resolution screen. I've got a bookshelf full of collectors edition games (Quake III signed by all devs FTW!).

Why a game publisher would choose to punish ME of all people is unfathomable. Do they have any clue what a pain it is to find a CD to pop in just so I can play something thats already installed?

What about after a computer rebuild? It's bad enough having to download patches all over the ying-yang, now I have to worry about how many reinstalls I have left on game A vs game B?

Like I said, I'm the Anti-Pirate but when it comes to these latest insideous DRM schemes all I have to say is GO PIRATES!!!!

There are more GOOD games out nowadays than I'll have time to finish. I have to pick now instead of playing them all. You know what is going to factor into my purchase decisions? That's right, DRM. Game magazines are now listing DRM methods in their reviews. Trust me, I'm paying attention.

Stardock (the DRM free folks)...hell I'm going to be buying them without even looking.
Guys with good playable Demos? Yep, you're getting moved up the list.
Games that install software without my explicit (not eula buried) consent? Big minus.

I bought and paid for spore before I realized how awful the DRM was. I don't care if you patch it after the fact. It's the principal. I loved the game but promptly gave it a bottom rung review on Amazon and my gaming sites. I hope I cost them more money than what I paid.

I hope EA and everyone else learn a lesson from this.

GO PIRATES!




Next EA title with DRM - Mirror's Edge
By Belard on 12/11/2008 3:40:42 AM , Rating: 1
Hey DICE - you guys screwed up getting in bed with EA, the retarded company that won't use lube on you.

No matter how EA can play it up... Spore and other SecuROM games have useless DRM. It stops NOBODY. BioShock... pirated. Spore pirated, it doesn't end.

Look at the Pyrmids and other hidden burial chambers with built-in traps and very HARD to remove heavy objects. It didn't matter, some guy in the DESERT REALLY REALLY wants whats inside. Stealing a game is as easy as going to Burger King and ordering a Big Mac... er Whooper. So what IS the point? Why pay for useless software that causes problems on peoples computers that makes them NOT want to BUY any more games from you.

Okay, is this some stuipid idea thinking like you're some hollywood actor in which ANY publicity is good? NO.

Instead of people talking about your game, they are only bitching about how you abuse your customers, mess up their computers, limit their choices with limited installs... if the game works, etc... its not a good image.

I'd rank ECA/EA as bottom of the list of game companies I want to buy from. Hell, I'm ANTI-MICROSOFT - I post how Vista is a POS OS that has nothing to offer. But wait, I bought Gears of War for the PC (It was on sale for $20) and I got my moneys worth. Epic, yep - I buy from them... unless they go retard like EA.

EA - you have thousands of people giving YOUR COMPANY and your PRODUCT bad ratings. Want an example of how happy cutomers talk about a company? I'll do it here.

I ordered a NEW cell phone from an online store that good reviews this past Sunday. Paid for 2 day shipping. I check my status on WED(when I expected the phone) and it says "waiting to ship"?! I called them up, told a woman I was unhappy about NOT having the phone today. They shipped it out NEXT day, its been confirmed with FedEX... I get it a day late but without much pain. MobileCityOnline in NewYork which has a store front has done me right as a customer. Now, if it was a scam store than resells used-phones (sometimes stolen) and take weeks to ship, if ever. Then like others online, we POST about such business to others.

EA - you've not done right to your customers. How much money do you guys pay to install that crappy DRM into your games? I'd really like to know? Is it really worth it? A simple CD-KEY is enough. Think WE really need to worry about how many installs or stability our game is that we PAID MONEY FOR? Do we have time for this crap? Its bad enough for us to keep up with the hardware requirements and buying new Hardware... This DRM CRAP is NOT FUN. GAMES are about having FUN, escaping reality for a while. Having a game lock us out or whatever because of a useless tool is dumb! We've had enough stupidity in our world... get a clue.

EPIC - you faults are sometimes more on a technical level - UT3 isn't as good of a game as it CAN be. Only about 32maps included with only 5 good ones? (Remember HALO? How UT2004 was a much better deal with 125 maps) UT3 is fixable... still needs work. But I've reinstalled it 3 times with my handy CD-Key and I'm happy. On many of your past titles, you have Disc in drive requirements - but after a certain amount of sales you patch that up to NOT require the disc in drive. Epic, you guys still remember that its gamers who buy your games. Thank you.

Games I was going buy:
Bioshock - With the TV ads, reviews, the cool SteamPunk city... I was SO going to buy this. Note, SecuROM on your DEMO screwed up my computer was ENOUGH... and that IS HOW I learned about SecuROM! I DL the demo to see how well it played on my hardware and get an idea of UT3 will work.

Crysis Warhead Crysis with multiplayer... cool.

GTA IV (Looks great - first GTA to NOT be installed on my Computer)

Mirror's Edge (Been checking out the level play videos - this game would look awsome on my 24" 1920x1200 LCD monitor) Only non-realsitic thing I see in this game... lack of NPC people, for such a HUGE city. Having people walking around, especially those looking up at the gunfire would ad more visuals - but understandable, the GPUs are busy with a detailed city. Oh, the girl looks like an ex-girl friend of mine, but with long hair and a smaller upper lip, same athletic body - but no tattoos. Freaky. PS: That ex-girl was a bit cuter and being real makes her better by a long shot LOL!! (I miss her)

Left 4 Dead - Not graphicly amazing, but the dead are scary like in 28 Days Later (movie)and team play looked cool.

Mass Effect - Another sale lost. Anoter "cool game" I won't be installing on MY COMPUTER!

Need for Speed - Anything new. I had these since NFS1... #2 & #3 rocked.

It doesn't matter because I'm one person? This is 6 games I was willing spend $40~50 each on. Thats about $250 of my hard earned cash! Since I don't have time to keep up with what games EA has that may NOT have SecuROM7 - I'll simply BOYCOTT all EA titles, past - present and future as long as your continue to use some stupid tactics on your customers (no EX-customers). So if 10,000 users DON'T buy 10 games from you - that's 100,000 game sales lost - at least 1-2 million dollars in losses. Does that really make up for SecuROM? The licencing, the development to infect games with such crap?

I looked up and found out that EA *IS* in class action law-suits for use of SecuROM.

So a quick review:
1 - Doesn't stop pirates (they DON'T buy games)
2 - Costs you money to infect games (lic & Dev)
3 - Angers customers - who won't buy your games now
4 - Effects every GOOD review you get; "good game, but has SecuROM installed"
5 - Increase google hits on problems and negatives
6 - You are getting into legal mess with customers
7 - You may end up with a legal mess with hardware and other software companies for anything you break because of your softwre.

So, what's the good thing that SecuROM does for you?

I know others who WON'T buy SecuROM7.x DRM - and know of others who'll just pirate the games. I'd rather make the POINT that I don't need your games enough to even bother to pirate it. If I ask a few people, I know I can get all 6 of those titles on a DVDs without any DRM software installed... or go to online and do some research to download them.




RE: Next EA title with DRM - Mirror's Edge
By Hyperion1400 on 12/11/2008 5:03:39 AM , Rating: 2
Why no love for L4D? You know you can't get on Steam w/o Securom right? The only DRM is Steam itself.


By Belard on 12/11/2008 5:52:24 PM , Rating: 1
As stated by others, SecuROM has been around for a long time and they (like other companies) have different products. I have a Steam Account.

The issue is SecuROM 7.x - which (A) runs in the background with or without the game(s) (B) limits installs (C) not removable (D) Questionable software (E) causes problems with peoples computers (F) FAIL at making a game an unfun thing.

And some steam-games STILL install SecuROM 7.x

L4D is an EA product. EA says all their future titles since Spore have SecuROM 7.x, so therefor ANY EA product should be boycotted. Screw EA.

Look at the of the "slight" changes these companies have made because people bitched. Reinstalls changed from 3 to 5... 10-day re-authorization removed (Mass Effect). Why should gamers have to spend their time to do these kinds of UN-FUN activities? These companies say "we are listening to the gamers and made changes" - well, ITS NOT ENOUGH!

Make a stand now. Boycott ALL products from any company that supports SecuROM7. If need be, that should include SONY PS3 (which I was looking to replace my PC for gaming since PS3 games don't have SecuROM - hmmmm see a plan?). Sony owns SecuROM. Damn, an I just got my SONY Phone. :/

When SecuROM isn't on EA Games, I'll buy some of their games. Until then, EA should and WILL continue to get bad marks for their stupidity. Hope they lose millions in the lawsuits. The developers should sue as well.


By michal1980 on 12/11/2008 9:44:34 AM , Rating: 2
If you bit torrent the game, then what point are you proving?

The more games get stolen, the more DRM (working or now) will be created. The answer to DRM is not to steal the game, its to not buy it.

1.7 million people stealing, just means there were 1.7 million potention costumers.

So a loss of 68 million dollars!!!. That makes a company look at ways of preventing tefth of property. Even if 1 in 10 theives bought the game instead of stealing it, thats nearly 7 million in sales.

IMHO, all those that downloaded a stolen copy should be fined. By stealing the game, your not proving a point, your telling the world you want something for nothing.




By haukionkannel on 12/11/2008 3:16:05 PM , Rating: 2
Yep. Not buying is better alternative, but if the game is really good, I can understand that people would get it "like it was meant to play"...
But that does not encourage the use of DRM... Not buying is better, or making a law suit, but that is not something that I am used to. So I don't buy stuff, that I know is DRM protected.


By callmeroy on 12/12/2008 3:55:00 PM , Rating: 2
You know i'm all for folks earning a living and making an honest buck so don't misunderstand me here ...but i'm so glad Spore was pirated as much as it was. Maybe it'll send a strong message (though I doubt it).

Like others in this thread -- I too am pretty darn fed up with the insane DRM on games anymore. They just don't get it -- they are penalizing legit customers PAYING for their products, pirates don't care about the DRM (note: re-read this story for proof of this! lol)....any true software pirate (or community of software pirates) will never go "awww shucks golly gee whiz I was going to pirate that but wow its actually protected"......dude that's what they love -- the challenge of cracking that DRM stuff!

And what really really pisses me off is limiting the number of installs, again the industry doesn't get it -- you can say i have 100 installs and tell me its "so easy to get more installs approved just call this number...blah blah"...i pay you money the product should be mine for however many times I feel like installing / uninstalling it!




By Belard on 12/14/2008 4:37:06 AM , Rating: 2
Those crackers live for the challenge... And they win everytime... and don't get paid thousands or millions of dollars to develop their tools.


Not surprised
By Trikat on 12/10/2008 3:37:11 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not surprised since the game wasn't that great and there are a lot of anti-DRM people out there including me.

I don't think I even beat Spore. I just watched the ending video on youtube or something like that.
Usually I really enjoy playing the single player portion of games to the end so I can get the full extent of the story.




Competing with piracy
By UninvitedGuest on 12/10/2008 4:22:35 PM , Rating: 2
Look at the Retail version as one product, in competition with the Pirated product.

When the pirated product is easier to use due to your extensive DRM scheme, then obviously your product will not sell as well.

Instead of restrictive DRM that actually degrade the value contained in your product, what is required is an alternative means of creating value for the consumer.

Downloadable content like Mass Effect's Bringing Down the Sky for the PC hasn't been cracked yet, thought I don't know the reason why- whether it's difficult to crack, or no one cares enough to.




Most pirated ever - yeah right!
By BZDTemp on 12/10/2008 6:26:56 PM , Rating: 2
Another headline made up to draw attention :-(

For sure other games have been pirated more - LOTS MORE actually!

A good candidate would be "Tetris" where the original game may not be that copied directly but so many unlicensed versions has been made and they are in a sense pirate copies. Heck most cell phones comes with some sort of Tetris.

Other candidates are: Civilization, Quake 3, Unreal Tournament, Doom (The full game, not the free part of course) and Mine sweeper which is a part of almost every Windows version and therefore has been pirated along with the million of copies




A few thoughts...
By sh3rules on 12/10/2008 7:07:53 PM , Rating: 2
The poster who said 10 years was not exaggerating. Deus Ex was released many years ago, and I still play it occasionally. It is one of my all-time favorites (don’t bother with Invisible War).

Oblivion didn’t have DRM, but I’m under the impression that it sold a few copies.

I might buy Sins :)




By pwnsweet on 12/10/2008 7:33:49 PM , Rating: 2
Two major problems with this game. My retail copy of the game DIDN'T WORK and when I finally managed to get it working (set affinity to a single core in task manager for sporeapp.exe) the framerate was locked at 30fps.

ROFL!




By Emryse on 12/10/2008 8:09:11 PM , Rating: 2
Creating a stipulation within an EULA that limits the number of installs is like selling an automobile with a stipulation in the vehicle manual limiting the number of times you can turn the ignition on.

When I purchase a game product, I expect to install it for any number of times or personal machines that I own. If the EULA stipulates anything else, then I absolutely agree that the law should require it to be conveyed as a "lease" or "rental", and not a "sale" or "purchase".

Also, for most software I cannot even read the EULA until I have opened the packaging, thus preventing me from being able to return said software if in fact I do disagree with the terms as stated in the EULA; therefore, the law should require that if publishers or game developers are going to place unique requirements within the EULA that deviate from the "reasonable and prudent person" standard of what is expected when "purchasing" a product vs. "renting" or "leasing", then the terms of that EULA must be completely and whole disclosed, in legible writing, on the outside of the packaging, such that I am able to be completely informed of the terms and conditions. Otherwise, the law should require said publisher or game seller to refund to me all costs associated with returning said game, as well as the full purchase price and tax cost of the game, if I chose to disagree with the terms of the EULA.

Now, perhaps these suggestions are already things the law affords me - I don't know because I'm not a lawyer. But seriously, EULAs in general blow in the way they are handled; I am all for doing what you want with what you make, but whatever you decide to do cannot hinder or cause undue costs to others where they are gaining no benefit or return for that cost. To me, that is fraudulent behavior, and that is what I see here when I am left to deal with many of the hassles and / or catch-22s that exist because of EULAs and DRM.




ROFL!!!
By Frallan on 12/11/2008 5:23:25 AM , Rating: 2
They deserved that one - I feel sorry for all the ppl who has work long and hard on the game only to have some management decision about DRM making it crash & burn.

/F




My guess
By Esping on 12/11/2008 5:49:10 AM , Rating: 2
Is that they'd scared the paying customer away with DRM and targeted the game for teenager's (with no own income to speak of, but with a lot of torrent experince).

...and yea English isn't my native language.




Spore..
By whirabomber on 12/11/2008 8:02:25 AM , Rating: 2
Despite the hype ya' all aren't missing much. The first part plays like flow. The next part is more like a 3rd person collection game where you either find new parts or get parts by meeting/eating other species. The meeting parts is a near mindless simon says sort of deal.

Once you rack up enough "DNA" material, you advance to a kind of boring tribal age where you collect building upgrades and level up your town by meeting or beating several other species who enter the tribal age. Once you beat the 5 other tribes you go to the very limited planet conquest age.

This age you build a land vehicle and a water vehicle, use them to capture resources (spice) and attack other cities. Since every city thus far is on the water the affair involves making a big navy while keeping enough land vehicles around to keep control of land locked spice.

After capturing a city or two airplanes are introduced. Airplanes are more of an annoyance than anything and are used to harrass other players. Just build a big navy, bombard the enemy cities until submission.

After beating everyone, spore enters the "space age" consisting of building massive fleets to take over other planets or players can use diplomacy. Just kidding, spore gives the player one ship to trade spore, colonize planets, and defend colonies. The computer AI gets the large fleets and the ability to have planetary patrols automatically attack you if you go into hostile teritory.

One of the lest favorite missions involve hunting infected animals on a planet to save the ecosystem. Spore highlights the animals when you get close to them, but doesn't populate the animals on radar so the player is force to stop, wait for the little scanning beam to point towards the nearest animal, repeat for 5 animals. Wee so not fun.

The creature creator editor is the best part of spore. Parts align nicely an only minimal time is required to figure out how to do everything. The ship/plane/tank/space ship editor is the most frustrating part of spore. The editor is about the same as the creature creator, but the parts do not go together well. Parts snap on in odd directions, some parts expand in odd ways, and there never seems to be enough space to put on all the parts desired.

So after all these years of waiting, spore is just a set of distinct minigames that don't excel. The game might have been better had the designer played a game like Empire Earth or Rise of Nations. Both games have evolutions of sorts but better continuity.

Thankfully I only paid $15 ($20 cyber monday deal plus $5 off for buying creature creator) for spore.




Not surprising
By DarkElfa on 12/11/2008 2:58:33 PM , Rating: 2
It isn't surprising considering the Securom and generally poor gameplay.




resale
By aapocketz on 12/11/2008 4:48:10 PM , Rating: 2
I think that even if this proves the whole DRM is not effective (at least yet) on piracy, I still think they will consider keeping improving the DRM. Eventually they may come out with techniques that stop or severely delay piracy. Also I think its the first line in the eventual war on resale, coming when the next consoles come out.

Perhaps its too Machiavellian but I think the hackers cracking DRM on PC games right now are basically beta testers finding bugs in a evolving product. Once the gaming companies have figured out what works and doesn't they can use the new techniques on the next gen consoles. While it still may be ineffective for piracy, it may be very effective to stomp out game resale (like gamestop) which is probably a bigger drain on profits than anything else.

In fact piracy may have helped them on PC games, since it killed the resale market ( hard to find used PC games, kinda like buying used MP3s?). When most consumers look to buy a PC game its ALWAYS new, but for consoles people consider the used market quite often.




Well... This is Typical
By Quiescent on 12/11/2008 5:05:09 PM , Rating: 2
It's kind of like on that one show I saw where they had these kids in a classroom pick out their two most favourite snacks, and dried fruit and raisins were the top. They made it so that the dried fruit was ate often and as many as they liked to eat. Then they made it to where the raisins were eaten once a day, and you could only have one! It turns out that within a week, they kids went crazy over the raisins and tried eating more than one.

Same goes for slapping DRM onto something. You're trying to lock away the game from users, so it makes people more tempted to actually pirate the game.

However, I wouldn't pay for any game that is under EA's name. I hate that company, they have turned games into crap. I would rather pay the guy who made the game then EA. But only if it was good because the guy made it good and not like crap because EA rushed them into making it NOW, NOW, NOW!




150+ responses
By Belard on 12/12/2008 2:04:52 AM , Rating: 2
SecuROM use in games is a HEATED topic - at 150 responses for this "story" - its has a lot of responses compared to most other posts.

Wake up EA, you're only going to piss off more people.




Free Advertisement Dirty Trick
By SpaceJumper on 12/12/2008 7:35:32 AM , Rating: 2
Allowing people to freely pirate the game is just another scheme for free advertisement. People will get hooked on the game and then they will buy it in the future, it works for the majority of people. DRM is rubbish in anyway.




Duh.
By badmoodguy on 12/12/2008 1:11:30 PM , Rating: 2
I purchased some games for gifts this year and refused to purchase Spore and actively stopped somebody else from getting it because of the DRM. So that is 3 sales they lost because of their obtuse DRM (I would have bought one for myself).




Piracy
By wallijonn on 12/15/2008 9:54:02 AM , Rating: 2
If "Spore" was such a great game it would have come out on the Wii. Then the pirates could have ignored it.




By MikeValverde2000 on 12/15/2008 1:10:52 PM , Rating: 2
People pirates games because they want to play them - but don't won't to pay for them - PERIOD. People claim they would buy the game if they didn't have DRM, but long before DRM games where being pirated! Just buy an Xbox or PS3, and enjoy real gaming with out having to constantly upgrade video cards to play the next "big" game. Which with piracy, they are less and less coming out for the PC anyway.




Worth it or not?
By samoak54 on 12/17/2008 12:32:38 AM , Rating: 2
Basically it all comes down to this: Is it worth it, or not? PC games do sell, if they didn't, no one would bother making them, so obviously they do turn profit. The majority of pirates are either kids who cant afford to buy the game, lazy folk, or people who just want to stick it to the man cause they don't see the value in paying that much for a game. lets face it, that many illegal downloads can just be kids looking to play the game. EA pissed off too many people by treating them as if they were already pirating the game, and so this is how you get back at them.




By Rock Hydra on 12/11/2008 3:09:52 PM , Rating: 1
where can you read the EULA BEFORE you purchase the game. A quick search of some games I bought (NFS Carbon, Bioshock, Crysis) show no official agreement information for licensing their game. Therefore you must purchase the game, generally under the assumption that you cannot return it due to many stores open-box return policy on PC games, only to find that if you disagree with the EULA (ie. only 5 installs or whatever) you now have effectively a paperweight. I assume rigorous bitching at the right people would get you a refund, but it seems like the industry has a nice setup going.




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