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After all its nightmares with li-ion, Sony probably can't wait to jump to the safer li-poly technology

After facing the laptop battery fiasco all throughout 2006, Sony Electronics President Stan Glasgow said last week that he believes notebook makers will likely soon incorporate lithium polymer battery technology instead of the currently used lithium ion, according to a report on CNET News.

Perhaps in a reference to the small margin for error in designing and manufacturing batteries, Sony’s Glasgow said: "There is not too much more power we want to cram into lithium ion." After what Sony experienced with the lithium ion technology, the company will probably be glad to usher in the safer and more advanced uses of lithium in its batteries.

The ongoing development of lithium polymer battery technology is of particular interest to Sony, Dell, Apple, Lenovo, Toshiba and all other OEMs affected by numerous battery recalls over the past year. The recalls stemmed from incidents of faulty lithium ion cells, which caused laptop batteries to catch fire and explode.

Lithium polymer does not suffer from the same dangers as that of lithium ion. The older lithium ion design requires the lithium to be held in an organic substance and contained in a metal casing – all making for a rather volatile situation if the casing were to leak. Lithium polymer, on the other hand, stores the lithium in a solid polymer composite, which is a much more stable design than lithium ion.

Other advantages to lithium polymer include the ability for the manufacturer to shape the battery to best fit around the electronics component, rather than the lithium’s metal casing. In addition, without the requirement for the metal packaging, lithium polymer batteries can be lighter and smaller. Lithium polymer is a 20 percent improvement over lithium ion battery (of the same size) in energy density, thanks to fewer restrictions in the way the battery must be packaged.

While nearly all notebook computers on the market today use lithium, Apple started shipping lithium polymer batteries with several of its MacBooks as of late October. Lithium polymer batteries are already being widely used today in some newer models of PDAs and cell phones.

Lithium polymer won’t replace lithium ion overnight. Even though lithium ion is clearly superior to older nickel-based batteries, we still find the older rechargeable technology in many of today’s devices. Thankfully, the IEEE is already planning for new standards to ensure safer battery designs.

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Lithium Polymer far from safe
By kvn5000 on 12/10/2006 5:37:17 PM , Rating: 3
These battery packs are known for catching fire. Actually they are worse than li-ion? wtf is sony thinking, unless they have greatly made these safer i am shocked. When i flew RC heli's they warned you to put them in metal box to charge and to monitor the charging. You werent supposed to leave them alone AT ALL! Use google to look up lithium polymer battery catch fire.

http://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+polymer+bat...




RE: Lithium Polymer far from safe
By BladeVenom on 12/10/2006 6:46:37 PM , Rating: 2
Not according to Wikipedia.
quote:
There are many advantages of this design over the classic lithium ion design, including the fact that the solid polymer electrolyte is not flammable (unlike the organic solvent that the Li-Ion cell uses);


Although they can still cause a fire or explode if overcharged.


RE: Lithium Polymer far from safe
By kvn5000 on 12/11/2006 1:23:04 AM , Rating: 2
click the link in my above post. Ive seen video of them exloding both from overcharging and shock to the actual pack caused from RC crashes, which in turn caused a short. Cant ignore it actually happening no matter what wiki says, if i trusted wiki anyway :)


RE: Lithium Polymer far from safe
By kvn5000 on 12/11/2006 1:48:09 AM , Rating: 3
turns out they have packed these modified li-po packs into gel. i do believe the type im familiar with arent. So it is a modified li-po battery of sorts. but for giggles check this out
http://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+polymer+bat...


By Christopher1 on 12/11/2006 3:07:23 PM , Rating: 2
Also notice that they are PURPOSEFULLY charging the things at the wrong amperage or settings for the pack.

Frankly, ANY battery that you do that to will explode!


RE: Lithium Polymer far from safe
By jmunjr on 12/12/2006 1:55:47 AM , Rating: 2
Lol, Wikipedia. Amazing how people are just going to believe everything they read on the Internet, especially from a so-called online encyclopedia that is written by Internet users!


RE: Lithium Polymer far from safe
By xphile on 12/11/2006 4:31:36 AM , Rating: 2
The fact is Li-Po provides Sony with a current technology that wont cost an arm and a leg to change to (A good position since the Li-ion cost them one arm and the PS3 took a leg and the Wii dogs knawing the other off as we speek so they dont have much in the bank to play with) while also arguably (if you read enough articles) on a par or there abouts with power capacity and when hyped right might even come over safer whether it really is or not.

The point is - it is SOMETHING ELSE and they are doing something - well anything really, to show they have a solution. They simply have to to keep their customer base - batteries are one of those hidden (ok not anymore) major Sony money spinners.

When all's said and gone up in smoke what could they possibly have to lose? Almost every new Li-Po battery is dangerous and gets recalled? Way cool that's a bonus, last time it was ALL of them, we're winning again!


RE: Lithium Polymer far from safe
By peternelson on 12/11/2006 6:03:12 AM , Rating: 2
My HP Jornada 928 smartCellphone/pda uses Lithium Polymer and that is now a fairly old design.

It has not yet exploded on me so seems safe.

Even if the capacity of li-po may not quite be li-ion (although latest developments may have improved it), the fact is that without the heavy metal shielding, the amount of energy stored PER weight of battery is actually better. In a laptop/notebook application, it is desirable to keep weight down. If the capacity needs to be greater just add another battery to the laptop, or make the new battery say 1.5 times the size (whilst retaining the same weight as former li-ion battery).

I guess this can be a good thing.

Ideally these battery sizes can be standardised and interchangeable between manufacturers if that is not too much to hope for ;-)


RE: Lithium Polymer far from safe
By peternelson on 12/11/2006 6:05:01 AM , Rating: 2
Does anyone know if the same charging circuits are used for li-ion versus li-po cells?

ie can li-po be put into existing equipment, or does it need a redesigned charging circuit?


RE: Lithium Polymer far from safe
By Larso on 12/11/2006 12:41:52 PM , Rating: 2
The basic chemistry is the same in Li-Poly and Li-Ion, and the basic charging principle is also, but IIRC there might be a minor difference in voltage thresholds. In any case the charging logic is usually placed inside the pack, so it should not be a problem.

Regarding the safety issues: the usual saying is that while Li-Ions are able to literally explode when mistreated, the Li-Poly will "only" vent flames. I think the clue is that the thermal runaway is slower with Li-Polys, but still a present danger.


what the hell took so long?
By SLEEPER5555 on 12/10/2006 6:15:11 PM , Rating: 1
some phones have been using li-po for almost 5 years now, why the hell havent laptops and other phones gotten li-po? hell even the cheap airhogs remote controll cars have li-po!

--Sleeper




RE: what the hell took so long?
By ChronoReverse on 12/10/2006 8:33:09 PM , Rating: 3
Lithium Polymer batteries have lower energy densities than Li-Ions. But it looks like after the whole exploding battery fiasco, maybe they've decided that cranking it back is worth it?


RE: what the hell took so long?
By Kuroyama on 12/10/2006 8:44:42 PM , Rating: 2
That's what I thought too, but then why does the article say that
quote:
Lithium polymer is a 20 percent improvement over lithium ion battery (of the same size) in energy density,


RE: what the hell took so long?
By ChronoReverse on 12/10/2006 9:13:58 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, it says the exact same thing in the Wiki, but following up on one of the source links yields this

quote:
Lithium-ion-polymer has not caught on as quickly as some analysts had expected. Its superiority to other systems and low manufacturing costs has not been realized. No improvements in capacity gains are achieved - in fact, the capacity is slightly less than that of the standard lithium-ion battery. Lithium-ion-polymer finds its market niche in wafer-thin geometries, such as batteries for credit cards and other such applications.
(http://www.batteryuniversity.com/partone-5.htm)

Which was updated in November 2006. So I'm not sure what the deal is =/


RE: what the hell took so long?
By GTMan on 12/11/2006 4:55:20 AM , Rating: 3
The article says they no longer need the metal case which saves a bit of space and it also says they can create odd shaped volumes to maximize the available space.

Maybe by using additional volume not usable before they can match or exceed the energy density of lithium ion. In the end the capacity will be the same and hopefully the weight will be less.

So they are maintaining the same capacity per computer but not per cubic inch of battery material.


as an IT professional...
By Quiksel on 12/10/2006 4:50:56 PM , Rating: 2
I certainly welcome renewed efforts to ensure that exploding batteries, etc., by Sony are kept to a minimum. This fiasco cost more than just Sony, folks, so even though this is probably not the coolest thing to say, IT departments NEED Sony to do a good job... that is, if any system builders even re-up on their contracts for future machines.

Anyone have any info on whether Sony has lost a customer or two when it comes to their battery business?

Here's to a good 2007 with less than 9 million bad batteries to try and replace (or whatever the final number was). ;)

~quiksel




RE: as an IT professional...
By wrack on 12/10/2006 5:40:46 PM , Rating: 2
I read somewhere that one laptop manufacturer is now going to use Samsung or LG batteries. Can't remember the name though.


RE: as an IT professional...
By twjr on 12/11/2006 2:44:06 AM , Rating: 2
In New Zealand the majority of our Dell batteries were already being supplied by Samsung.


Ha!
By dcalfine on 12/10/2006 4:52:17 PM , Rating: 2
Like I'd trust Sony to provide me with my laptop battery ever again...




RE: Ha!
By jon1003 on 12/10/2006 5:01:04 PM , Rating: 2
Did you see all the companies affected by the recall? There is little little chance you would even know if Sony was involved in the production of your notebook battery.


RE: Ha!
By oTAL (blog) on 12/11/06, Rating: 0
upgrade path?
By dugbug on 12/10/2006 5:42:58 PM , Rating: 2
Anyone out there with carnal knowledge of batteries know if it would be possible for OEMs to offer an LP battery upgrade to existing LI battery systems? Ie: HP or someone sell an LP battery that just replaces the LI battery in its existing notebook families.




RE: upgrade path?
By kvn5000 on 12/10/2006 6:39:45 PM , Rating: 2
Not 100% certain, but let me say this. The lithium battery charger i had could charge ion and polymer batteries both. Every lithium type charger ive seen could all do this. The only concern would be that it does not overcharge the battery if set up for a different type. I bet a bios update of some sort could do it if it wouldnt work right away. Whether or not they do this is up for debate.


macbook pro
By Joony on 12/10/2006 8:03:40 PM , Rating: 2
that article just says that a 3rd party, fastmac, has a li-poly battery avaliable for users to purchase. Not apple supplying them with stock MBPs...




Some news
By crystal clear on 12/11/2006 1:54:06 AM , Rating: 2
"Take a guess: Who is chairing the revision of laptop battery standards?

Quote-

The IEEE is forming a group to revise the IEEE 1625 standard for lithium-ion laptop batteries and guess which two companies will chair it ... wait for it ... Sony and Dell. These two companies have extensive experience in exploding batteries which makes them eminently qualified to chair the group.

Source-
http://www.tgdaily.com/2006/12/08/ieee_revising_ba...

Unquote-

I wonder who voted them to chair the group?




Already done?
By UltimateDeath on 12/11/2006 3:08:16 AM , Rating: 2
I could be wrong but i swear they already use these in some laptops.

I believe the standard batteries in the IBM Thinkpad T40 are lithium-ion, but the ultrabay batteries are lithium-polymer. Whatever the case this is hardly new technology, im waiting on nanofibre capacitors. :)




Shhhhhh
By Teletran1 on 12/10/06, Rating: 0
"We can't expect users to use common sense. That would eliminate the need for all sorts of legislation, committees, oversight and lawyers." -- Christopher Jennings

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