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PS3: the big 2001-esque Blu-ray console
Sony stands strong behind decision to include Blu-ray in the PS3

Those critical of the PlayStation 3’s price often point to the Blu-ray Drive components as culprits for the system’s spendiness. Not only has the inclusion of Blu-ray into PlayStation 3’s spec driven up the bill of materials cost, it’s also much to blame for the initial shortage of consoles at launch and the delayed release into Europe and Australia.

Sony said recently that it plans to have shortage problems solved by May. “The blue laser diode, as you well know, had a blip short-term ramp up issue, which is now past; that's now behind us,” said Phil Harrison, SCE Worldwide Studios, in a GameDaily interview. “That did cause us some challenges in being able to supply the launch worldwide, but that's all resolved.”

Some consumers clamor on Internet forums that the Blu-ray Drive’s added cost is nothing but another effort for Sony to sneak its HD format into the homes of consumers, and that Sony should remove Blu-ray functionality from the console and offer it as an add-on. Of course, such arguments seem to ignore that PS3 games also run off of blue laser media, and that the Blu-ray format can do more than just movies.

“We needed to have Blu-ray disc from a game design point of view. The chipsets in PS3 chew through data at such a rate that in order to build variety and detail and quality into the games, we need more than nine gigabytes,” Harrison added. “Now, the fact that we could also adopt the preeminent next generation movie format into PS3 was an added bonus, not an added cost.”

Every new PlayStation generation features the latest in optical disc technology. The original PlayStation used optical media when Nintendo was still firmly planted into cartridges. The PlayStation 2 brought affordable DVD players into millions of homes. And the PlayStation 3 makes the generational jump to Blu-ray Disc.

Admittedly, the inclusion of the newest optical format has plagued the latest PlayStation more than formats of past, but Sony remains confident in the decision. “No regrets whatsoever, and it's those kinds of decisions, painful though they were to live through in the last quarter of 2006, those are the decisions that are going to propel PlayStation 3 to be a platform that lasts for ten years, like we've seen with PS1 and PS2,” Harrison said. “And it will be, I believe, reflected on as the smartest decision we ever made.”

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future-proof?
By brinox on 3/2/2007 3:55:45 PM , Rating: 3
at least sony is thinking in the future with the incorporation of blu-ray, aside from the format war currently underway.

blu-ray is adamantly more headstrong that its previous attempts with betamax, relatively speaking




RE: future-proof?
By dreddly on 3/2/2007 4:04:38 PM , Rating: 2
I think the ps3 is too expensive, but I agree with their logic and the idea that it is future proof. I am hoping this format war will end up more like DVD-R vs DVD+R than VHS vs Beta.

Larger capacity is needed for future devices - with 32 GB flash drives on the way, 4.7 GB DVD's already seem obsolete.


RE: future-proof?
By nerdboy on 3/2/2007 4:15:54 PM , Rating: 2
there are already making 64 GB flash drives.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/04/07/kangurus-64gb-f...


RE: future-proof?
By sdsdv10 on 3/2/2007 4:47:28 PM , Rating: 2
Actually they are already up to 160GB...

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=6220


RE: future-proof?
By ninjit on 3/2/2007 5:09:39 PM , Rating: 3
By Flash drives, they're referring to USB memory sticks and other portable storage (i.e. alternatives to CDs, DVDs, etc.)

What you linked is a Solid State Disk (SSD), that is designed to be an HDD replacement, usually for use in extreme environments that would really screw a regular harddisk, such as lots of shock, humidity, large temperature swings,etc.
But they'll eventually trickle down to the more mainstream, hopefully sooner than later.


RE: future-proof?
By tuteja1986 on 3/2/2007 11:54:47 PM , Rating: 2
Smart move in Blu-ray wins the format war... bad move since it increase the price by $200.


RE: future-proof?
By ogreslayer on 3/2/2007 6:44:25 PM , Rating: 5
Blu-Ray is an awesome technology for storage and is a great feature to future proof a console. I'm not sure anyone argues that. What they complain about is the price increase. The pricing means that they CANNOT create an installed base to compete with an XBOX3. something the community knows will come within 5 years, well 3-4 now. Thus future proofing the system for a 7-10 year life cycle is totally irrelevant and impractical.

50GB discs were really not 'needed', they are a luxury. One that the PS3s hardware is incapable of taking full advantage of due to poor choices in memory allocation and what is truthfully an underpowered GPU to compete with PC gaming and the 360. How many PC games do you have over 20GBs, with their hours of content and there multitudes of texture levels. My largest folder is my Steam folder which encompasses an jaw dropping 12GB, and thats with 2 game engines and 12 mods/expansions. The largest title I've heard of is Vanguard: Saga of Heroes @ 20+GB

I don't fault Sony for trying it this way but if you are going to charge what is perceived as a significant price increase over your competitors you have to at least fill the check boxes on value, content, and power... I don't think anyone of those is actually done by the PS3 and I'm not sure most people do either.


RE: future-proof?
By Samus on 3/2/2007 7:02:51 PM , Rating: 2
yes, but WHERE ARE THE GAMES.


RE: future-proof?
By lukasbradley on 3/3/2007 12:15:42 PM , Rating: 2
Same thing was said about the PS2 when it came out.


RE: future-proof?
By akugami on 3/4/2007 12:50:25 AM , Rating: 2
Except that the PS2 sold very very well as opposed to the PS3 which, while it is selling, is slow in comparison to it's competitors.

As for Blu-Ray, I like it over HD-DVD but it's not a guaranteed win for it. The HD disc format wars are far form over and it'll be a while before we see who wins.

I don't see games needing more than two DVD9's in the near future except for fluff content. And for the foreseeable future, two DVD9's are still cheaper to manufacture than a single Blu-Ray.


RE: future-proof?
By Rockjock51 on 3/2/2007 7:14:06 PM , Rating: 2
For what it's worth, my Vanguard folder is only 16.7GB.


RE: future-proof?
By TejTrescent on 3/3/2007 1:41:34 AM , Rating: 2
... Vanguard's THAT big? o_O


RE: future-proof?
By FITCamaro on 3/4/2007 5:14:05 PM , Rating: 2
During beta it was nearly 18GB. Tons of textures and shit.


RE: future-proof?
By Dactyl on 3/2/2007 8:18:57 PM , Rating: 5
It's got the optical drive of tomorrow, with CPU the of today, and the graphics card a of yesterday.

Do you really think, in four years, the Cell processor (or the tiny NVidia graphics card) will be exciting?

The very idea of future-proofing a console is ridiculous.

If you aren't comfortable with a 3-year release schedule, you shouldn't be in the business of making consoles. Sony can't force us to wait 6 years between consoles, because MS is moving faster.

And if you won't make your new consoles fully backwards compatible, then you're a horrible company.


RE: future-proof?
By dome1234 on 3/3/2007 6:28:12 AM , Rating: 2
by the same logic, that would mean wii's doomed. Not just yesterday, except for the controllers, all are last-week.

using pc-ish logic on console isn't right. pc-games constantly requires newer speedier hardware, console developers have to squeeze performance out of a locked-out system for years.

thus future proofing a console isn't as straightforward as you might perceive. To microsoft, unified shader based gpu is the answer with a multi-core cpu. To sony, a novel cpu + bluray is. To nintendo, a novel interesting engaging controller is.


RE: future-proof?
By Anosh on 3/3/2007 4:05:14 PM , Rating: 2
Wii is not targeting the same audience as Xbox ans PS. And considering this audience chooses the wii for other reasons than graphics tells me the wii doesn't need to be very concerned about upgrading as time goes on.

On the other hand all of this generation consoles will most probably be upgraded several times during their life span to keep them up to date. Something that didn't really happen during the last generation (not taking into account some small hardware updates to Gamecube and the minimizing of the ps2 etc).


RE: future-proof?
By timmiser on 3/3/2007 12:20:30 AM , Rating: 2
Here is the PS3 in a nutshell:

As a game console, it is way too expensive, late to market, and too few launch titles.

As a Blue Ray platform, it works great and is half the price of a stand alone player!


RE: future-proof?
By walk2k on 3/3/07, Rating: 0
RE: future-proof?
By bozilla on 3/3/2007 8:16:35 PM , Rating: 4
You sir are seriously disturbed :)

you say WRONG! and you say 20GB for a game that looks mediocre by new gen standards is OK? Oh, and how many new gen titles does PS3 have after several months being on the market? 2-3 at the most, with Resistance looking the best, but still far from wow-ing anyone. Where exactly did you see XBox 360 games to take 3DVDs, please? Name a game.

"Bluray is not needed"...
"640k will be enough for everyone".....

Who said that? You should grow up, and stop pulling these statements out of your ass.


RE: future-proof?
By dluther on 3/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: future-proof?
By Xavian on 3/4/2007 5:09:28 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, that is a common fallacy, Bill Gates never actually said that line at any point in his life.

It's a misquote that has spread all over the Internet, a me-me as it were.

As for Blu-ray & Resistance, unfortunately the only reason why it actually filled up the disc, was because they basically chucked all their assets onto the disc as well as a good hefty amount of junk data, they also included localisation for the entire world on the disc (voice-acting for example, 6-7 sets of sound clips for the voice acting will take up a lot of room, especially if they use raw formats and don't bother using lossless).

Resistance takes up 20GB, not in content (in actual content Resistance is rather mediocre in comparison to other FPS's out there), but rather in in-efficient data storage and quite frankly the developer couldn't be bothered to clear off unused assets and compress the textures.

The only Xbox 360 title I know of on multiple DVD9's is Blue Dragon, and that is only because they tend to use a lot of FMV's instead of in-game cut scenes. Final Fantasy Series is a great example of the opposite, for years Square-Enix have slowly been moving 'away' from FMV's and moving towards in-game cut-scenes, simply because they are inflexible and take up too much room nowadays to be considered an option. If you play a Recent SE title like Kingdom Hearts 1 or 2 you'll find there is only 2 FMV's total, one at the start and one at the end, everything else is handled by the in-game engine.

One final thing, if blu-ray is supposed to provide us with massive amounts of content and 'make games better, bigger and more alive', why is it that Final Fantasy 12 has a world that is about 10 times bigger then any 'next-gen' to date and it fits all on a single-layer DVD.


RE: future-proof?
By willow01 on 3/4/2007 9:00:02 PM , Rating: 2
Because of speed issues with blu-ray, it has been suggested that developers will reduce seek times by duplicating data across the disk. I'm sure this is probably done currently on DVD9 but perhaps to a lesser extent.


RE: future-proof?
By Hawkido on 3/5/2007 1:05:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
they also included localisation for the entire world on the disc


Actually this is a good thing. It saves the publisher money in not creating multiple formats for different regions, some may be passed on the the consumer, some to the developer, and the rest will make publishing more profitable, thus encouraging game production.

quote:
6-7 sets of sound clips for the voice acting will take up a lot of room, especially if they use raw formats and don't bother using lossless


quote:
but rather in in-efficient data storage and quite frankly the developer couldn't be bothered to clear off unused assets and compress the textures.


The developers of Lair (a game still in Development for the PS3) said they didn't compress the textures or the sound because they could then stream said data into the CPU/GPU as it was loaded without having to gain the entire file (or applicable chunk size) then decompress it then stream it to the appropriate chip. With the new storage they can save on processing time and loading time by sliding the data straight into the processor, without preprocessing it. The Lair Developers said that with all the regonal data on the disc it would run right at 50 gigs. The Lair team also said it runs great at 1080P. I believe it was in an EGM magazine interview, else it was on IGN's webpage. It's been a while.

As to game content PS2 didn't really take off till the first final fantasy game (FFX) came out for it. Hold your judgment for the PS3 till FFXIII comes out. That's what I am doing, I may have to buy a PS3 if it actually looks as good as I have seen.


RE: future-proof?
By Locutus465 on 3/2/2007 9:37:46 PM , Rating: 2
I'm still a bigger fan of Microsoft's solution... Make it an option right now.. If they need HD-DVD games, they can provide a firmware update to make games play from the add in drive, and release consoles with HD-DVD (or whatever) built right in when the time comes... Cheap and easy to produce now, yet still future proof...


RE: future-proof?
By MrSmurf on 3/2/2007 11:15:43 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah, and completely shit on the 11 million users who can't read HD-DVD discs on their current Xbox 360 by making them buy a $200 add-on and further confusing the consumer.

Yep, that sounds PERFECT!


RE: future-proof?
By Dactyl on 3/3/2007 1:04:07 AM , Rating: 4
A $200 add-on that will come down in price when HD-DVD drives come down in price. You can wait to buy it until you need it.

Further, most people don't even have HDTVs yet, so why would they care about HD-DVD movies?

Putting an HD-DVD drive (or a Blu-Ray drive) in every console makes the consoles more expensive, less available, and it forces people to buy what they don't need.

And nothing is stopping MS from releasing an updated 360 with an internal HD-DVD drive once it makes sense to do so.


RE: future-proof?
By hergieburbur on 3/3/2007 11:58:26 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, I have seen quite a few studies that show that while most people don't have HDTVs yet, most people that own a PS3 or XBOX 360 do. That in itself renders your point irrelevant.

The problem with MS's solutions now is that they can't move to putting game content on an HD-DVD now without alienating a lot of their current fanbase. PS3 is more expensive, but they now have the luxury of a much larger medium for storing their games.

Not to mention that currently an XBOX 360 would cost more to make equivalent to PS3 when you factor in the larger HD and the HD drive. And you still can't get HDMI on XBOX 360 yet.

Sony made A LOT of mistakes with the PS3, but including the Blu-Ray drive definitely was not one of them. It has also been a pretty large contributor to BLu-Ray winning the format war, as it were.


RE: future-proof?
By wrekd on 3/4/2007 11:43:07 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Actually, I have seen quite a few studies that show that while most people don't have HDTVs yet, most people that own a PS3 or XBOX 360 do. That in itself renders your point irrelevant.


I'm not disagreeing with you but...you having read a few studies does nothing to render any point irrelevant.


RE: future-proof?
By hergieburbur on 3/4/2007 11:38:52 PM , Rating: 2
It kinda does. He basically said that since most people don't own HDTVs, they don't care about HD video capability in their next-gen consoles.

I countered by saying that most people that own next-gen consoles DO own HDTVs, so you can't make the argument above.

The fact that he was using statistics about one segment of the population to prove a point about a sub-set of that segment makes the argument irrelevant.


RE: future-proof?
By wallijonn on 3/5/2007 3:07:52 PM , Rating: 2
"I countered by saying that most people that own next-gen consoles DO own HDTVs, so you can't make the argument above."

But if only 10% of the population has HDTV and only 10% of that number games, then that basically takes into account the whole 10 million people in America who can buy either system.

Now, being a parent who doesn't game, do you think that you're going to allow your teenage children to monopolise the HDTV? I don't think so.

Sony has now come out with a $600 BR DVD player, so people who don't game will get their heart's desire fulfilled.


RE: future-proof?
By hergieburbur on 3/5/2007 4:30:10 PM , Rating: 2
I have enough trouble getting my wife to let me play when she wants to watch something...


RE: future-proof?
By Locutus465 on 3/4/2007 12:36:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The problem with MS's solutions now is that they can't move to putting game content on an HD-DVD now without alienating a lot of their current fanbase.


How do you figure? I don't see this as being any different than Sony releasing a PS2 hard drive specifically for Final Fantacy (except it's more useful since it allows HD-DVD movie play back as well). If the time comes that a game developer is going to require HD-DVD and microsoft releases the firmware update to allow this, then there will be no problem. There will already be a significant install base of x-boxs with optional HD-DVD, and the gamers who really want the game, but don't have an HD-DVD drive yet will pony up, buy the game and a few movies to boot. Where's the problem?


RE: future-proof?
By hergieburbur on 3/4/2007 11:34:21 PM , Rating: 2
It obviously depends highly on implementation. The PS2 HD was basically useless for anything but FF XI, so the millions already out there weren't forced to upgrade. If MS wanted one or a few HD-DVD games, then yeah, no big deal. But if they wanted to switch on a large scale, then it becomes a problem for those who are forced to buy it to get new games.


RE: future-proof?
By Locutus465 on 3/4/2007 12:31:36 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, instead of giving people a choice let's add the extra $200 in the the cost of the console and not give people a choice. Brilliant ;)


RE: future-proof?
By deeznuts on 3/4/2007 11:35:20 PM , Rating: 2
Unless Sony has a gun to YOUR head, people still have a choice, not to buy the PS3 ;)


Some Advantages to BlueRay (FOR SONY)
By hrishi2das on 3/2/2007 4:24:46 PM , Rating: 5
Well there are some good side effects of the the BlueRay drive for Sony.

Like it makes it much more costly to pirate games. This will discourage any casual piracy.

Also developers have more freedom (or can be lazier) to put in more High def artwork.

In addition, Sony gets its format accepted. All this does not really do anything for the consumer. In fact it would be a big hassle to backup the games. (High cost burner and Media)




By Micronite on 3/2/2007 4:50:07 PM , Rating: 4
If having Blu-Ray in the PS3 helps Sony win the format war with HD-DVD, that alone will make it worth their effort.

Blu-Ray licensing will easily make up the costs and headache they may have endured.
However, HD-DVD winning the format war would really eat Sony up. Imagine buying a HD-DVD add-on for the PS3.


RE: Some Advantages to BlueRay (FOR SONY)
By Alexvrb on 3/2/2007 6:40:28 PM , Rating: 3
It won't do much against piracy, especially if they DO win the HD format war. Better yet, how many PS3 games are going to be larger than DVD9? How many of those are due to HD FMVs? Pirates are clever, they can remove videos or even re-encode them at a lower bitrate.

No matter what their PR spin on it, the only reason they did it was to win acceptance for Blu-ray. They didn't need it, and if they didn't have it, they could have done much better. They could have launched the console sooner, with better availability, and better pricing.


RE: Some Advantages to BlueRay (FOR SONY)
By StevoLincolnite on 3/2/2007 7:42:29 PM , Rating: 4
Even if it does go beyond the size of DVD9, They could always span it across multiple discs, Like with Final Fantasy 8 for the PS1, It also makes a good excuse for a toilet/smoko/Coffee break. Its a poor excuse to say Blue-ray is needed for the PS3, Spanning it across multiple discs never hurt anyone.
I Personally prefer carts, No loading times ever! :) If only they could hold more data... And you can drop them without fear of a scratch or breaking them :) All my nes/snes games still work perfectly :)


RE: Some Advantages to BlueRay (FOR SONY)
By MrSmurf on 3/2/07, Rating: 0
By zeroslugfm on 3/3/2007 12:23:16 AM , Rating: 2
now now. Back in the day cartridges had a good thing going for them ;)


twice the arrogance twice the mistakes
By wetwareinterface on 3/3/2007 6:02:52 PM , Rating: 2
wow, sony has recreated the 3do.
and added a betamax player to ensure it is widely accepted.

:rolleyes:

same price problem vs. competition as the 3do had.
only in favor of competition as they have more compelling graphics capabilities and far beter support for developers.
the only reason the ps2 did as well as it did against the xbox is the one year head start and game title availability.

now they have the same lesser graphics as they did in xbox vs. ps2. they have an even harder to program for system. and a one year late start and no title availability. and a price disparity that is fairly large vs. their two more succesful competitors.

betamax + 3do = ps3




RE: twice the arrogance twice the mistakes
By bozilla on 3/3/2007 8:46:08 PM , Rating: 2
I have to completely agree. Historically if we look at PS2/Xbox and you can apply this to BD/HD-DVD as well, XBox came almost a year and a half after PS2 and still couldn't shake it. It was a smashing success for MS, but it still couldn't take the lead or win the market, ultimately ending up in 2nd place.

Let's not forget that XBox was technologically more advanced then PS2 in any way. It had better graphics, faster processing etc. Yet PS2 still had huge lead.

Now, let's take a look at today. Same scenario, only other way around. XBox 360, HD-DVD all came out a year or so before Sony's PS3 and Blu-Ray and it's more expensive in every way for a straight from the store purchase, has solid technology but not really something that is twice as better, these are all subtle differences between 2 technologies. Blu-Ray is slightly bigger capacity, HD-DVD has more advanced interactivity and so and so on.

The point is, it is not a difference like it was between PS2 and XBox, and yet PS2 won that one. Games played a huge role of course and in this case it's the same, huge games base for XBox 360, pretty much same amount of movies with HD-DVD/Blu-Ray, plus HD-DVD actually having more pre-releases then BD. 99 vs 66 to be exact.

So however you look at it, Xbox 360 / HD-DVD will ultimately win, the market laws are showing this.


RE: twice the arrogance twice the mistakes
By Belard on 3/4/2007 7:08:19 PM , Rating: 2
The Xbox was a huge ugly box that didn't have much in a way of games worth playing. Halo was about it for the longest time. But with developers not waiting (for good reason) for the PS3 and the fact that both boxes are simular in performance - there is not a lot of EXCLUSIVES.

You have some errors...
(1) HD-DVD did NOT come out a year before the PS3/BR. BR players have been out about 4-6months after HD-DVD. The XboxHD-DVD unit came out at the same time (give or take a few days) as the PS3.

(2) More expensive? Err, not. While the BR players are about $200 more expensive than HD-DVD, they are coming down. But a PS3 with BR is cheaper than an Xbox with HD-DVD. I have a copy of a graph of such things...
Xbox360 is $300/400 (no HD or with HD for $100). Add the $200 2nd unit = $500/600... guess what...?

The PS3 costs $500/$600 - both include HDMI. Both include HDs (20gb / 60gb) so you're getting a bit more for the money. (the cheaper PS3 - smaller HD, no wifi or flash card reader - but its still more features than the xbox)

(3) So from your "Straight from the store purchase" is completely wrong. Also, many have noted that watchin movies on 360-HD-DVD as not has sharp as a dedicated player... and of couse, its another device with cables you have to deal with.

(4) Slightly bigger capacity? If you meant 20gb vs 25gb, yeah. But the difference is 30GB(max) vs. 50GB. Thats almost twice...

(5) When I check about christmas time, there were 5 more HD-DVD movies over BR movies. But lets check the catalog again... okay, 200 BR movies vs 175 HD-DVD movies. Oh yeah, did you read "Diseny is producing movies ONLY on BR-Discs"... uh... Houston we have a problem.

Now, if you COUNT the porno videos - they HD-DVD has that market... for now... but trust me, they are rethinking things when Diseny went to BR and its been said that Universal has switched to BR. (Its easier to mass-produce Porno on HD-DVD than BR at this moment)

This is the new generation of consoles for the next 3-4 years. That 20GB size difference could make a difference in games in the future. And when it comes to using 1 piece of hardware vs 2 pieces of hardware, the PS3 wins.

The Xbox360 may NEVER handle HD-DVD for game content. It would be incompatible with the current XB360 without adding ANOTHER drive and firmware update... So developers would never consider it a usable base. A developer knows that EVERY single PS3 has a BR-Drive.

Now, will the PS3 catchup or beat the XB360 in the gaming dept... I don't know. Thats going to depend on the games and marketing. If someone wants a BR player and a console - the PS3 would easily be the better choice.


RE: twice the arrogance twice the mistakes
By bozilla on 3/6/2007 6:37:36 AM , Rating: 2
I think you are seriously enthralled by Sony's PR campaign. You are defending something with incorrect and very subjective information.

Let me give you a reality check.

quote:
The Xbox was a huge ugly box that didn't have much in a way of games worth playing. Halo was about it for the longest time. But with developers not waiting (for good reason) for the PS3 and the fact that both boxes are simular in performance - there is not a lot of EXCLUSIVES.


I'm not sure what you are trying to say here mixing PS3 with old consoles but I'll tell you this.

Xbox had quite a bit of games, it is invalid to say it had crappy games, Halo indeed boosted sales, but I gamed quite happily on both system as I own them and I know how many games I have on PS2 and how many games I have on Xbox. I think XBox was a success however it did not take the lead that is all.

quote:
You have some errors...
(1) HD-DVD did NOT come out a year before the PS3/BR. BR players have been out about 4-6months after HD-DVD. The XboxHD-DVD unit came out at the same time (give or take a few days) as the PS3.


Again you are trying to twist real life facts. I will admit that first Blu-Ray players came out 6 months after HD-DVD, but had 0% of the market. Nobody was buying them. It's simple a $1000 for a player and a couple of titles made Blu-Ray a complete miss at that time. Blu-Ray started off only with release of PS3 which was very close to a year after first HD-DVD player by Toshiba at $499. This cheaper version was constantly out of stock as soon as it came out as it was selling quite well. Press release announced HD-DVD players HD-XA1 and HD-A1. This was on CES in January 2006. You can spin it as much as you want, but until PS3, Blu-Ray hardware sales were miserable. This is when you can count Blu-Ray really started living.

With consoles the time gap is even longer:
- Microsoft Launches XBox 360 November 2005.
- Sony launches PS3 late November 2006.

quote:
(2) More expensive? Err, not. While the BR players are about $200 more expensive than HD-DVD, they are coming down. But a PS3 with BR is cheaper than an Xbox with HD-DVD. I have a copy of a graph of such things...
Xbox360 is $300/400 (no HD or with HD for $100). Add the $200 2nd unit = $500/600... guess what...?


Again, reality check.
Toshiba HD-DVD stand-alone players go from $299-599 (for high-end models).

Cheapest Blu-Ray models $599 and $999 for higher end models and it's been a reported fact that even all these Blu-Ray players are not following specs properly thus making some content on Blu-Ray non-playable.

So the only valid argument that people like you who support Blu-Ray is PS3 as a Blu-Ray player.

Even with that, PS3 is expensive. For a regular Joe who wants to watch movies in hi-def the only logical choice is HD-DVD. Not all people want to play games and not all people want to pay $600. I will even dare to say that majority of people want to watch movies rather then play games overall. That's where pricing very much comes very much in question.

Most people do have computers one way or the other and quite a few have it set up in their living rooms. Now, this type of people will definitely get Microsoft's HD-DVD player over PS3 for $599 even $499.

Microsoft's HD-DVD player is $199. You know you can plug MS HD-DVD player to your living room media center via USB right. You don't need an XBox 360.

quote:
The PS3 costs $500/$600 - both include HDMI. Both include HDs (20gb / 60gb) so you're getting a bit more for the money. (the cheaper PS3 - smaller HD, no wifi or flash card reader - but its still more features than the xbox)


Who's talking features on consoles here, I'm certainly not. What one has over other is completely irrelevant. Nobody said that PS3 is a bad deal, however it's price right off the box is way too high and this is a problem. I can guarantee you that people will spend more money with Microsoft's strategy then with Sony's simply because people don't feel financial impact of shelling $600 right away as they do with PS3.

This reflects sales. Just look at the numbers on sold XBox 360 consoles and 500k something sold PS3 units. They've almost reached the limit, it is very obvious decline in PS3 sales as I can see PS3s in every store here in Phoenix collecting dust.

On the other hand, XBox 360 HD-DVD player sales are going strong just because they are compatible with PCs as well as XBox 360.

Even Wii will most likely get an HD-DVD player by the end of this year/beginning of 2008.

quote:
NINTENDO HAS plans to release a new version of the Wii next year that will ship with a HD DVD player, according to industry insiders.


This should tell you something.

quote:

(3) So from your "Straight from the store purchase" is completely wrong. Also, many have noted that watchin movies on 360-HD-DVD as not has sharp as a dedicated player... and of couse, its another device with cables you have to deal with.


Wth are you talking about not as sharp as dedicated player?!

Have you even watched movies on HD-DVD or you are just quoting another Sony fanboy. I own an HD-DVD player both dedicated and one on my XBox 360 and there is absolutely no difference. I even had PS3 just to try blu-ray and if anything Blu-Ray had the worst picture of all due to several movies having poor encoding.

I'm very objective person and if Blu-Ray had better experience I would've had Blu-Ray players throughout my house instead of HD-DVDs. I returned PS3 due to non-existent games and most movies looking much worse then HD-DVD.

Here's an article from someone who obviously knows a bit more about these things then you and debunks some Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD myths.

just FYI, even though the article is from last year, many of the things stated are true today.

http://www.hometheaterblog.com/hometheater/2006/06...

quote:
(4) Slightly bigger capacity? If you meant 20gb vs 25gb, yeah. But the difference is 30GB(max) vs. 50GB. Thats almost twice...


You know Blu-Ray has 50gb single layer discs while HD-DVD has 51GB on a single-sided triple-layer disc at the moment. Ultimately Sony will release dual layer 50gb discs, but when, who knows. It took them a year to come out with 50gb discs and it wasn't without problems. On the other hand Ritek announced that it successfully managed to use all 10 layers per disk for a capacity of 150gb the only problems are lasers.

quote:

(5) When I check about christmas time, there were 5 more HD-DVD movies over BR movies. But lets check the catalog again... okay, 200 BR movies vs 175 HD-DVD movies. Oh yeah, did you read "Diseny is producing movies ONLY on BR-Discs"... uh... Houston we have a problem.

Now, if you COUNT the porno videos - they HD-DVD has that market... for now... but trust me, they are rethinking things when Diseny went to BR and its been said that Universal has switched to BR. (Its easier to mass-produce Porno on HD-DVD than BR at this moment)


I think you are a bit wrong here, it is the Blu-Ray camp that is reconsidering. Even some high executives within movies studios said that if they knew then what they know now they would have never signed up with Blu-Ray. Here a direct quote:

quote:
"While some of those studios are taking a wait-and-see approach on the impact of PS3, others are already starting to feel burned by the delays and pricing concerns."

"PS3 was a huge deal in our coming aboard Blu-ray," confirms one top home entertainment exec. "I'm not sure we would have signed on if we had known then what we know now."


So, if this is what they are saying, it is quite clear why you see more and more Blu-Ray supporting studios releasing HD-DVD titles as well. Fox and Disney are only two who are still sticking to BD exlusively, but as I am in this industry as well, I can tell you that they will start reconsidering releasing movie on HD-DVD as well as Blu-Ray like others. This is only a good thing for HD-DVD.

Let me burst your bubble a bit more:

quote:

In an interesting turn, Disney seems to be considering to release HD video titles on the HD DVD format, changing its original plans to only support the rival Blu-ray format.

According to an article published by Variety.com, Bob Iger, Disney's CEO, dropped a hint that Disney may end up playing both sides in the high-definition DVD format war, during the firm's annual meeting with shareholders. In response to a shareholder question, Iger said company continues to back Sony's Blu-Ray format, but added, "We probably will publish in both formats."


HD-DVD already had a slightly larger catalogue before CES 2007 and announced 300 new titles to Blu-ray's 250 at CES 2007.

Again, porn is not out yet so don't even count that, and Universal switching to Blu-Ray is simply laughable. By latest announcement from Universal Pictures there will be 600 movies in HD-DVD catalogue by year's end.

As for those statistics, Blu-Ray had a burst in sales only due to those rebates and giveaways with PS3 consoles. If you look at closely at the charts now, HD-DVD title sales are rising again. They were never down, they were just outnumbered temporarily by Sony's PS3 campaign.

quote:

The Xbox360 may NEVER handle HD-DVD for game content. It would be incompatible with the current XB360 without adding ANOTHER drive and firmware update... So developers would never consider it a usable base. A developer knows that EVERY single PS3 has a BR-Drive.


LOL, where did you get this information. XBox 360 already supports full 1080p and HD-DVD player on XBox 360 can easily be used for gaming, just as game studios are releasing PC CD and PC DVD titles they can easily release games on multiple DVDs and one HD-DVD disk, and if the rumors are correct and Microsoft comes out with revised XBox 360 with integrated HD-DVD, you can bet your behind that Blu-Ray's doom is cemented and so is PS3. I personally think they will come out with revised XBox wth HD-DVD player by the end of this year when HD-DVD addons reach more numbers in sales.

I won't argue anymore, you need to read a bit more and try to analyze information and use your head to think. Blu-Ray may have the spotlight due to all the hype from Sony BS PR machinery, but the fact remains it has a LONG way to go and all studios know this, not because they love one format over the other, but because they are starting to lose patience and money, MONEY being the keyword here, with Blu-Ray.

In the end, for a regular movie fan, HD-DVD is cheaper and better choice today and at least for next 2 years (This is what industry experts are saying). They say Blu-Ray might overthrow HD-DVD by 2009, when Blu-Ray prices come down and there are even more titles out, but the fact is in 2 years we will have an insane amount of $100 hd-dvd players and movies, all offering pretty much the same thing as BD.

As I originally said, Blu-Ray and PS3 came in a little too late to the table.


RE: twice the arrogance twice the mistakes
By Woochifer on 3/9/2007 12:45:27 AM , Rating: 2
For someone accusing another poster of being "enthralled" by a PR campaign and "defending something with incorrect and very subjective information," you're playing awfully fast and loose with the facts yourself. Seems like you've been in a time warp for the past three months, because during that time the following has occurred:

- standalone Blu-ray players sales equalled the unit sales for standalone HD-DVD players last year, despite HD-DVD's headstart and lower list prices

- Blu-ray disc sales passed HD-DVD disc sales in December and have maintained a lead since that time

- Year-to-date Blu-ray disc sales now have a more than 2-to-1 advantage over HD-DVD

- Blu-ray's total disc sales since inception have now passed HD-DVD, despite HD-DVD's more than six month headstart in the market

- 19 of last year's top 20 selling DVD titles are out or coming out on Blu-ray, compared to 4 of last year's top 20 titles coming out on HD-DVD; 16 of the top 20 selling DVD titles are coming out as Blu-ray exclusives, compared to 1 of the top 20 coming out exclusive to HD-DVD

- of last year's top 20 North American box office performers, 19 of them came from studios that support Blu-ray, with 12 of them from studios supporting Blu-ray exclusively; only 1 of last year's top 20 box office movies comes from a HD-DVD exclusive studio

- in March 2007 through June 2007, last year's #1, #2, #3, #9, and #10 movies are coming out exclusively on Blu-ray, with Casino Royale, The Pursuit of Happyness, and Night At The Museum coming out concurrently with the DVD release. During that same time period, the highest ranking HD-DVD exclusive will be The Good Shepherd, which ranked #50 at the box office last year.

Those are the facts, and for the time being, all of the momentum is on Blu-ray's side, with nothing coming out from HD-DVD that can stem the tide. Industry analysts increasingly look at the format war as all but over, because HD-DVD cannot win so long as Blu-ray continues to hold the advantage with hardware sales, studio support, and an exclusive hold over most of the top grossing titles. Here's are some articles that have come in recent weeks (as opposed to the many quotes you post that date back to last year) projecting the likelihood of a Blu-ray victory by this time next year.

http://www.homemediamagazine.com/news/html/breakin...
http://www.twice.com/article/CA6422671.html
http://www.tvpredictions.com/highnoon030807.htm
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa133.html#...
http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa133.html#...

quote:
Here's an article from someone who obviously knows a bit more about these things then you and debunks some Blu-Ray vs HD-DVD myths.


Uh, articles written last year have zero relevance to how the format is going right now, since last year at this time the first gen Blu-ray players hadn't even come out yet. HD-DVD has done better than expected at the technical end, and while Toshiba and the disc authors should be commended, it does not change how the market has shifted in Blu-ray's favor, and how the market is still structured to a huge advantage for Blu-ray (i.e., more studio support, more manufacturer support, etc.)

quote:
You know Blu-Ray has 50gb single layer discs while HD-DVD has 51GB on a single-sided triple-layer disc at the moment. Ultimately Sony will release dual layer 50gb discs, but when, who knows. It took them a year to come out with 50gb discs and it wasn't without problems. On the other hand Ritek announced that it successfully managed to use all 10 layers per disk for a capacity of 150gb the only problems are lasers.


Can you name a HD-DVD release that has come out in this 51 GB format, or a HD-DVD player capable of playing this disc media?

On the other hand, several Blu-ray discs have already been released in the BD-50 format, which BTW IS a dual-layer format.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announ...

quote:
Cheapest Blu-Ray models $599 and $999 for higher end models and it's been a reported fact that even all these Blu-Ray players are not following specs properly thus making some content on Blu-Ray non-playable.


Nope. The base PS3 carries a list price of $500USD, and it is fully capable of Blu-ray playback and HDMI 1.3 output.

quote:
I think you are a bit wrong here, it is the Blu-Ray camp that is reconsidering. Even some high executives within movies studios said that if they knew then what they know now they would have never signed up with Blu-Ray. Here a direct quote:

"While some of those studios are taking a wait-and-see approach on the impact of PS3, others are already starting to feel burned by the delays and pricing concerns."

"PS3 was a huge deal in our coming aboard Blu-ray," confirms one top home entertainment exec. "I'm not sure we would have signed on if we had known then what we know now."


This quote is attributed to an article that came out in OCTOBER 2006 ... BEFORE the PS3 launched and tilted the entire market in favor of Blu-ray, and before most of Blu-ray's title slate hit the market. Doubt you'll find an industry executive that will make a similar quote now that the sales trends have decisively tilted towards Blu-ray.

http://www.variety.com/article/VR1117951896.html?c...

quote:
So, if this is what they are saying, it is quite clear why you see more and more Blu-Ray supporting studios releasing HD-DVD titles as well. Fox and Disney are only two who are still sticking to BD exlusively, but as I am in this industry as well, I can tell you that they will start reconsidering releasing movie on HD-DVD as well as Blu-Ray like others. This is only a good thing for HD-DVD.


Forgot about Sony, eh? Together, these three studios controlled more than 50% of the domestic box office last year. But, you're in the entertainment industry and already knew that.

These three studios have supported Blu-ray exclusively from the very beginning. And in fact, the only major studio defections that have occurred since this format war began were Warner and Paramount, which were exclusively in the HD-DVD camp until Sony announced the Blu-ray/PS3 linkage, after which time those studios went neutral.

At the moment, the only player keeping Blu-ray from winning the format war outright is Universal. If they go neutral, it's over. Far more dominoes have to fall for HD-DVD to emerge victorious, and it'll be a very snowy day in Tahiti before Sony ever supports HD-DVD.

quote:
Let me burst your bubble a bit more:

quote:

In an interesting turn, Disney seems to be considering to release HD video titles on the HD DVD format, changing its original plans to only support the rival Blu-ray format.

According to an article published by Variety.com, Bob Iger, Disney's CEO, dropped a hint that Disney may end up playing both sides in the high-definition DVD format war, during the firm's annual meeting with shareholders. In response to a shareholder question, Iger said company continues to back Sony's Blu-Ray format, but added, "We probably will publish in both formats."


The only bubble to be burst here is yours. Quoting something that dates back to March of LAST YEAR is either a big time gaffe or outright dishonesty on your part.

http://www.cdrinfo.com/Sections/News/Details.aspx?...

If anything, Disney has solidly backed Blu-ray from the outset, and has the upcoming release slate to prove it.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/releasedates.html

quote:
As for those statistics, Blu-Ray had a burst in sales only due to those rebates and giveaways with PS3 consoles. If you look at closely at the charts now, HD-DVD title sales are rising again. They were never down, they were just outnumbered temporarily by Sony's PS3 campaign.


A burst in sales (700% in November) that has continued throughout this year. The sales numbers have nothing to do with giveaways since Nielson Videoscan only tallies point-of-sale transactions. The HD-DVD fanboys have been pushing this on various home theater forums, and it's just as false a premise here as it is there.

Since the PS3 release, Blu-ray discs have outsold HD-DVDs every single week.

quote:
I won't argue anymore, you need to read a bit more and try to analyze information and use your head to think. Blu-Ray may have the spotlight due to all the hype from Sony BS PR machinery, but the fact remains it has a LONG way to go and all studios know this, not because they love one format over the other, but because they are starting to lose patience and money, MONEY being the keyword here, with Blu-Ray.


If anyone has reading to do, it's you because the information you've been working with is quite outdated and does not reflect the current state of the market. If market analysts are already projecting a Blu-ray victory by next year, that doesn't indicate to me that a long and drawn out format war is in the offing.


RE: twice the arrogance twice the mistakes
By bozilla on 3/9/2007 5:34:27 AM , Rating: 2
I think you are a little bit confused or brainwashed. A couple of articles that are heavily biased don't prove anything. Some of the statements I quoted are still valid and I will admit that I overlooked the statement, I saw March and didn't notice it was from last year, but here's something that is very promising for HD-DVD that was stated end of January:

quote:
In just nine months time, HD-DVD has struck a chord
with consumers, showing strong movie title sales and high attach rates. As of January 5th,
there are estimated to be more than 175,000 HD DVD players sold in North America,
with new models in high demand. Using Nielsen data and retailer reports for title sales to
date, the HD DVD studios projected an annualized attach rate of 28 movies per player.
Based on an expected install base of more than 2.5 million players by the end of 2007, the
HD DVD Promotional Group estimates HD DVD movie title sales to exceed $600
million in North America for 2007. This is more than 40 times the revenue accrued in
2006 by the format.


Even if we say that this statement was made by HD-DVD group, the fact remains, announced 300 HD-DVD titles over 250 titles for BD this year, Universal says over 600 titles by year's end.

End of this year, beginning of 2008 I'm pretty sure that Nintendo will integrate HD-DVD player in their Wii since it will definitely giving them a media center system while keeping the low price (so say the experts), so will Microsoft that's for sure. PC manufacturers already have $100 PC drives ready as well (companies like HP, Acer, Asus, Lite-On and a few others are all putting HD-DVD drives in their computers and manufacturing HD-DVD drives)

As for your pricing on PS3, that's absolutely a marketing play on Sony's part. I personally own a PS3 fully loaded as well as XBox 360 w/ HD-DVD player.

The $499 version of PS3 was there just to allow Sony to wave around with having a cheaper version, of course that $499 version is NOWHERE to be found, but stores are packed with 60gb versions and no it's not because everybody bought $499 version. I am yet to hear from someone I know that they have a cheaper version. Sony probably did release the cheaper one, but it was in very low numbers just to justify that they had it.

Here, I'll give you a real breakdown of the PS3 costs if you want to connect it optimally as I did with XBox 360.

Console: $600
Resistance Fall of Man: $60
Additional Joystick (since I ain't playing alone): $50
PS3 HDMI cable: $60
Remote (since it doesn't come with it): $40
Headset (no headset in the box): $30
Optical audio cable: $20
Total: $929 w/ taxes

I can show you my receipt. So it's not $400 anymore, it's almost a thousand, let's say you can use it without all the things, but you are are still looking at around $850.

Second of all, BD titles are mostly CRAP since I wanted to buy a few as well and games are simply ridiculous. 3 titles that are worth something.

So if I compare PS3 with XBox it comes to pretty much the same price with much better flexibility as I could've picked what I wanted.

My XBox 360 bundle that had almost everything that I bought for XBox 360 turned out to be like $650 w/ wi-fi. And I got everything, remote, headset, 2 games, 2 controllers and so on. Plus with HD-DVD Player it turned out to be $850 or something like that with taxes included..and I can use my HD-DVD player on my computer, I can give it away if I want to upgrade, I can do whatever the f*ck I want and in reality I played games until I felt the need to get it.

As far as movie sales, as I said, since November/December release, PS3 has REBATES for BD titles, you can pick up 3 titles when you register and they are COUNTED as sales, don't be fooled. This is what led to significant increase in numbers of BD sales. Since January 15th, HD-DVD is again rising in sales, from 37% (HD-DVD) against 53% (BD) sales, HD-DVD percentage is around 45% and rising. BD still has the advantage, but not for long, things are coming back to normal due to decline in PS3 sales.

I've been to a few stores yesterday, when I go to the hi-def section of movies HD-DVD shelves are almost empty except for a few stupid titles, while BD are fully stacked. I guess this means that BD movies are selling really good right?

Please show me where standalone Blu-Ray players equaled the unit sales of standalone HD-DVD players. Because that's just laughable statement. The only argument BD camp has is the PS3, standalone sales of BD players are RIDICULOUS.

Judging by your Hi-Def Digest the articles says it all:
quote:
On the HD DVD side, estimates are for 1.2 million stand-alone players and 500,000 Xbox 360 add-on drives. And for Blu-ray, Mandato is counting only 1.2 million of the 5.5 million PS3 units projected to be sold during the year, plus 500,000 stand-alone players, because his analysis suggests that just 22 percent of PS3 households purchase movies regularly.


So how is it possible that HD-DVD will have 1.2 million stand-alone players sold and BD will have 500.000 stand-alone players, if you are saying Blu-Ray hardware sales surpassed HD-DVDs. That's just incorrect. As far as I can see, HD-DVD hardware is outselling Blu-Ray 2:1 judging by these estimates. And it's a BIG IF Sony will sell 1.2 million out of 5.5m PS3s projected.

As for movies coming out, yeah some good titles are supposed to come out on Blu-Ray from Fox, but if you didn't know most title releases HAVE BEEN postponed for unexplained reasons. Look it up.

Except for those 3 titles you mentioned in the next 4 months, I don't see anything super hot that will actually make me say WOW. In all honesty the only few titles I'm actually looking for throughout the whole year for Blu-Ray are:

- Casino Royale
- Night at the Museum
- Deja-Vu
- and both Pirates

are the only titles that really make me want to buy them on BD, otherwise other movies are less impressive.

While I'll be looking forward to on HD-DVD
- Babel
- Departed
- Dog Day Afternoon
- The Game
- Alpha Dog
- Harsh Times with Christian Bale (awesome)
- of course Sopranos
- Inside Man (I think it's already out)
- Smokin' Aces
- School for Scoundrels
- Star Trek Series remastered
- Matrix Trilogy

and a few others. So you see there's plenty of titles for people not to cry about. And your comparisons are a little bit over the top, because Fox/MGM/Sony had several great movies last year, means that all movies are coming from them? There's plenty of awesome movies coming out from Warner, Paramount, Universal this year. 300 for example is Warner, so? This year we might see a lot of great movies that will be on both formats, so what.

I personally can watch anything I want, but I think that the shady practices by Sony by paying chains to show Blu-Ray on super flat screens in electronics stores and slam HD-DVD player on a 27" Vizio screen in the back of the store, constant lies about this and that, completely arrogance and plain lies are a bit too much.

Samsung and a few other manufacturers started producing HD-DVD hardware just because of these reasons. They don't want to lose money and they want to give HD-DVD a try. If they were so sure in BD victory they would stick to BD exclusively no? I guess they have a little bit more correct stats, don't you think.

As far as release of movies, almost 90% of movies on HD-DVD will be combo by the end of the year, meaning you don't have to buy 2 versions, you only buy one and you have it on plain DVD as well as HD-DVD.

And let me show you how HD-DVD is on the rise again, that proves that BD spike in sales was just caused by promotional PS3 launch and titles included through rebates (not giveaways)

Nov. 2006
HD-DVD Blu-Ray
65.90% 34.10% (PS3 is not on market)

Dec. 2006
HD-DVD Blu-Ray
48.69% 51.31% (PS3 comes out)

Jan. 2007
HD-DVD Blu-Ray
43.40% 56.60% (New year promotions for PS3)

Feb. 2007
HD-DVD Blu-Ray
37.56% 62.44% (Peeps banking in PS3 rebates)

Mar. 2007
HD-DVD Blu-Ray
53.17% 46.83% (PS3 promos ended)

What do you think will happen for april eh? My guess is around 65% for HD-DVD.

So you see, I'm not worried at all, if anyone should be worried it's Sony and Blu-Ray camp.

And let's not forget, if games don't start coming out for PS3, something exlusive, you can see bye-bye to PS3 and Blu-Ray altogether since PS3 is the only thing keeping Blu-Ray alive.

With Metal Gear Solid in the air whether or not it will remain exclusive PS3 title, pathetic online experience for PS3, Halo 3 coming out and a few other XBox exclusive titles, you can pretty much bet that Sony is really nervous right now. And game studios complaining how hard it is to code for PS3 and how ridiculous the develop tools are, is not helping at all.

Just pick up the latest Electronic Gaming Monthly magazine and read the opinions about PS3 from marketeers, developers and others. There are specifically 6-7 pages of interview with the PS3 main guy and EGM with quotes from these people (developers, gamers, studios etc)

People don't buy PS3 for movies, they buy them as gaming consoles first and BD player second. If they don't have games, we can say again bye-bye to PS3.

On the other hand, I already know quite a few people that bought XBox HD-DVD player to connect to their PCs and they don't even own XBox360s.

And I'm sick and tired of people arguing points on quality and all these other things about PS3/BD vs HD-DVD/XBox 360 when they don't have both or neither.

I have both connected to high quality tech equipment like Pioneer Elite 50" plasma through HDMI, Denon recievers, Klipsch Reference Series 7.1 setup and I can be pretty objective on what's better and even with VGA connection for XBox 360 as opposed to HDMI connection for PS3, everything I watch or play on XBox/HD-DVD looks better or at least the same for some newer titles.

I say, even though it means that I through away almost a $1000, XBox 360 and HD-DVD all the way.


By Woochifer on 3/9/2007 11:46:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I think you are a little bit confused or brainwashed. A couple of articles that are heavily biased don't prove anything. Some of the statements I quoted are still valid and I will admit that I overlooked the statement, I saw March and didn't notice it was from last year, but here's something that is very promising for HD-DVD that was stated end of January:


"confused or brainwashed" -- sorry, but market data has no fanboy bias. The sources I've been posting, in particular The Digital Bits, have no agenda. On the other hand, your quotation reads like a press release from the HD-DVD Group ... oh, that's right it IS one of their press releases! The attach rate is really the only measure that HD-DVD still has in its favor, and it's the only one that Universal has been touting, because they know that all of the other measures are now in Blu-ray's favor.

Objectively looking at the market trends, there's just no way that anyone can conclude that things look great for HD-DVD, unless they also speculate on rather sizable changes to the market structure itself. As the market is currently structured, there are only three plausible scenarios 1) Blu-ray wins the format war outright; 2) HD-DVD holds onto enough market share to force a dual-format compromise; or 3) both formats fail.

quote:
Even if we say that this statement was made by HD-DVD group, the fact remains, announced 300 HD-DVD titles over 250 titles for BD this year, Universal says over 600 titles by year's end.


Hope you can cite a source for this because according to High Def Digest and The Digital Bits, Universal's slate of HD-DVD releases for 2007 will total closer to 100 titles ... a far cry from 600, and a number that will certainly be outpaced by the release schedule from Sony, Fox, and Disney.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Disc_Announ...

Also, High Def Digest's release schedule, which only covers titles that have firm release dates, currently shows Blu-ray with 45 titles scheduled for release through the end of May, while HD-DVD has 35 titles.

And the tally for titles released so far in 2007 is 55 titles for Blu-ray and 23 for HD-DVD.

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/releasedates_histo...
http://hddvd.highdefdigest.com/releasedates_histor...

quote:
Here, I'll give you a real breakdown of the PS3 costs if you want to connect it optimally as I did with XBox 360.

Console: $600
Resistance Fall of Man: $60
Additional Joystick (since I ain't playing alone): $50
PS3 HDMI cable: $60
Remote (since it doesn't come with it): $40
Headset (no headset in the box): $30
Optical audio cable: $20
Total: $929 w/ taxes


"real breakdown of the PS3 costs"? Uh, right and you say that I'm brainwashed!

In order to get Blu-ray functionality out of a PS3, you only need the console ($500 versions are indeed available, just not as easy to find as the $600 version), and a HDMI cable which is readily available for $15. The headset, extra controller, optical audio cable, and Resistance are not needed, and the game controller can handle basic playback functions.

quote:
Second of all, BD titles are mostly CRAP since I wanted to buy a few as well and games are simply ridiculous. 3 titles that are worth something.


So, I guess that 19 of the last year's top 20 box office performers constitutes "crap" as far as selection goes? Most of the top selling HD-DVD titles have come from Warner, and they will soon start reissuing those titles as Blu-ray releases.

quote:
As far as movie sales, as I said, since November/December release, PS3 has REBATES for BD titles, you can pick up 3 titles when you register and they are COUNTED as sales, don't be fooled. This is what led to significant increase in numbers of BD sales. Since January 15th, HD-DVD is again rising in sales, from 37% (HD-DVD) against 53% (BD) sales, HD-DVD percentage is around 45% and rising. BD still has the advantage, but not for long, things are coming back to normal due to decline in PS3 sales.


Show me your source. The Nielson Videoscan numbers have only shown Blu-ray maintaining a more than 2-to-1 advantage in year-to-date sales. If HD-DVD had any momentum, then wouldn't the dual format release of The Departed have had the HD-DVD version outselling the Blu-ray version? (Didn't happen -- Blu-ray version sold 20,000 copies, while HD-DVD version sold 13,000 copies during the first week) In any case, the February sales numbers don't support your claim.

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Industry_Tr...

quote:
I've been to a few stores yesterday, when I go to the hi-def section of movies HD-DVD shelves are almost empty except for a few stupid titles, while BD are fully stacked. I guess this means that BD movies are selling really good right?


Anecdotal observations say nothing about how trends are playing out in other areas or other stores. Plus, if retailers sense that a winner is emerging in the format war, then they will order more titles for the format in the lead. This is exactly what happened with Betamax, which actually had equal studio support as VHS, but lost the format war at the retail end where video stores progressively stocked fewer Beta titles and shrunk the shelf space.

quote:
Please show me where standalone Blu-Ray players equaled the unit sales of standalone HD-DVD players. Because that's just laughable statement. The only argument BD camp has is the PS3, standalone sales of BD players are RIDICULOUS.


Here you go.

http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6413168.htm...

Nothing ridiculous at all about it. If you take the time to think things over logically rather than thru fanboy glasses, you'd note that Blu-ray has more manufacturers in its camp, and therefore more models available, more marketing, and more store shelf space.

quote:
So how is it possible that HD-DVD will have 1.2 million stand-alone players sold and BD will have 500.000 stand-alone players, if you are saying Blu-Ray hardware sales surpassed HD-DVDs. That's just incorrect. As far as I can see, HD-DVD hardware is outselling Blu-Ray 2:1 judging by these estimates. And it's a BIG IF Sony will sell 1.2 million out of 5.5m PS3s projected.


Try re-reading the article. The analyst is projecting a total of 1.7 million HD-DVD players sold and a total of 6.0 million Blu-ray players sold, when accounting for both standalone players and gaming consoles. If his estimate of 22% of PS3 owners as potential purchasers of Blu-ray discs is correct (which differs from a survey of 10,000 PS3 owners that found 80% of them intending to purchase Blu-ray discs), then that creates a total market potential of 1.7 million households regularly purchasing Blu-ray discs. Do the math, it's not 2-to-1 in favor of HD-DVD. But, even if the hardware is at a rough parity, you cannot ignore the effect that the studio support will likely have on disc sales, since most of the top grossing titles upcoming will be available only on Blu-ray.

quote:
and a few others. So you see there's plenty of titles for people not to cry about. And your comparisons are a little bit over the top, because Fox/MGM/Sony had several great movies last year, means that all movies are coming from them? There's plenty of awesome movies coming out from Warner, Paramount, Universal this year. 300 for example is Warner, so? This year we might see a lot of great movies that will be on both formats, so what.


And of that list you posted, more than half of the titles will also be available on Blu-ray. Contrast that with Blu-ray, which will have an exclusive hold on 12 of last year's top 20 movies. Like it or not, it's those big releases that will drive disc sales.

No doubt, lots of great titles available in both formats, but the difference is that Blu-ray owners will only have to go without Universal, which made up less than 10% of last year's box office, whereas HD-DVD owners have to make do without three major studios that last year accounted for 50% of the market.

quote:
I personally can watch anything I want, but I think that the shady practices by Sony by paying chains to show Blu-Ray on super flat screens in electronics stores and slam HD-DVD player on a 27" Vizio screen in the back of the store, constant lies about this and that, completely arrogance and plain lies are a bit too much.


Welcome to the real world, where retail stores engage in comarketing with manufacturers (Toshiba did the same thing when they rolled out the HD-DVD), and manufacturers put out press releases touting their product over the competition! If HD-DVD is not demonstrated properly, then take that issue up with your local retailer. I've seen properly done demos with HD-DVD and I've seen crappy ones, just as I've seen bad demos and good demos with Blu-ray. Just so happens that there are a lot more Blu-ray players to choose from, and a lot more Blu-ray manufacturers vying for prime shelf space.

quote:
Samsung and a few other manufacturers started producing HD-DVD hardware just because of these reasons. They don't want to lose money and they want to give HD-DVD a try. If they were so sure in BD victory they would stick to BD exclusively no? I guess they have a little bit more correct stats, don't you think.


Aside from Samsung and LG, who are the "few other manufacturers" that you're referring to? Samsung and LG are old news. They've been in a race to develop a dual-format drive and player since late-2005 (LG's player came out first, but it's so fraught with incompatibilities that it can't even wear the HD-DVD logo), which is well before any of the "correct stats" were available.

The "correct stats" actually started trickling out late last year, and those numbers are the exact reason why Fox and Disney reaffirmed their exclusive support for Blu-ray prior to CES. The home theater boards before CES were filled with rumors about one or both studio(s) going neutral, but at CES the Blu-ray Association members declared victory. No matter how arrogant or premature that might be, it's hardly a sign of weakening support for the format.

quote:
Nov. 2006
HD-DVD Blu-Ray
65.90% 34.10% (PS3 is not on market)

Dec. 2006
HD-DVD Blu-Ray
48.69% 51.31% (PS3 comes out)

Jan. 2007
HD-DVD Blu-Ray
43.40% 56.60% (New year promotions for PS3)

Feb. 2007
HD-DVD Blu-Ray
37.56% 62.44% (Peeps banking in PS3 rebates)

Mar. 2007
HD-DVD Blu-Ray
53.17% 46.83% (PS3 promos ended)


Again, what's your source? The latest Nielson Videoscan data shows year-to-date (through February 25) sales at 67.4% for Blu-ray and 32.6% for HD-DVD, which makes your January and February numbers very suspect (and I really like to see how the March numbers got logged so early). The Nielson Soundscan and Videoscan numbers are very accurate because they use real-time point-of-sale tracking that records actual sales rather than wholesale shipments. It's what Billboard, Video Business (which is published by Variety), and the record companies and movie studios themselves use.

quote:
What do you think will happen for april eh?


Same thing that will happen during the month of March -- Blu-ray will maintain and likely widen its lead because it has a higher grossing slate of exclusive titles. (In fact, there are no HD-DVD releases coming out in March until the 27th) Casino Royale is but the first in a series of big ticket Blu-ray exclusives that will come out concurrently with the DVD. Furthermore, the best titles for HD-DVD are also coming out on Blu-ray, and most recently Blu-ray has been outselling HD-DVD in these simultaneous releases.

quote:
My guess is around 65% for HD-DVD.


How's that going to happen if Blu-ray has more titles coming out over the next month, more exclusives, and higher grossing movies? 65% is totally counterintuitive given the market structure and the release schedule. Night at the Museum alone will probably ensure that Blu-ray maintains at least a 2-to-1 advantage.

quote:
So you see, I'm not worried at all, if anyone should be worried it's Sony and Blu-Ray camp.


Nice to have an opinion, but nothing in the market trends supports your conclusion.

quote:
And let's not forget, if games don't start coming out for PS3, something exlusive, you can see bye-bye to PS3 and Blu-Ray altogether since PS3 is the only thing keeping Blu-Ray alive.

...

People don't buy PS3 for movies, they buy them as gaming consoles first and BD player second. If they don't have games, we can say again bye-bye to PS3.


It won't matter what happens with the PS3, because it already did what Sony intended -- it vaulted Blu-ray into the lead over HD-DVD, kept Fox and Disney solidly in the Blu-ray camp, and has put pressure on Universal to go neutral and effectively end the format war. By the end of the year, Blu-ray player prices will fall below the PS3 price, and the PS3 will still be available for anyone who wants their HD disc viewing together with their console gaming. IMO, Bill Hunt of The Digital Bits has had the format war handicapped correctly from the beginning -- the format that wins will do so because of the studio support. Blu-ray has only begun to exercise this advantage, and with a larger installed user base to begin with, it should continue to show up on the sales charts. The gaming side is an entirely different story, but on the home theater end, Blu-ray has established a clear market advantage.

And Blu-ray has more than just the home video and gaming markets, it also has the OEM drive market as well.

If the PS3 goes away, do you really think that will happen anytime soon? If so, you haven't been following Sony, which has an established history of sticking with its formats to the bitter end. I mean, Sony only stopped manufacturing the original Playstation last year.

Remember Betamax? Even though it lost support from the major studios way back in the mid-80s, Sony kept manufacturing the hardware (where the ED Beta format remained in use in professional circles) until 2004. Remember DAT and Minidisc? Minidisc recorders are still in production, and DAT recorders were only discontinued last year.

With Sony in control of a major film studio, how can HD-DVD win a format war outright without any of the titles from Sony Pictures? The studio support is a factor that HD-DVD currently cannot answer.

quote:
And I'm sick and tired of people arguing points on quality and all these other things about PS3/BD vs HD-DVD/XBox 360 when they don't have both or neither.


And I'm frankly tired of the format war. I want this settled one way or another, and settled soon. Blu-ray is far better positioned to win the format war outright, so I hope the job gets done soon so the market for HD discs can grow and establish a firm niche before HD downloads and on-demand services throw yet another monkey wrench into the market. If the situation was reversed, and HD-DVD had a clear advantage with studio and manufacturer support, I would hope that they put Blu-ray out of its misery. As it stands, HD-DVD is only prolonging a format war that it cannot win without major structural changes to the market that are unlikely to happen at this point.


By bozilla on 3/6/2007 7:43:20 AM , Rating: 2
Oh and I almost forgot, Samsung, Blu-Ray backer now releasing HD-DVD hardware.. Fox/MGM pulling all Blu-Ray titles for the next 2 months except 2? Even talks about Buena Vista titles coming out on HD-DVD to test out waters (I guess this is Disney so it's ok)

http://www.engadget.com/2006/06/21/samsungs-hd-dvd...

we already know about LG's attempt as well.

Blu-Ray titles drying up or postponed. Hm, I think everyone is having second thoughts? It certainly looks like that.

I personally predict Sony being in a big problem right now and expect them to again lose money by releasing a $299 BD player to get them back into the game by Christmas out of desperation and in attempt to preserve BD backers.

I just found it interesting since I stumbled upon few articles in the meantime.


HD-DVD: DOA
By somegeek on 3/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD: DOA
By AlexWade on 3/2/2007 7:25:15 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, that is wrong. HD DVD was not dead on arrival. HD DVD came out swinging. In fact, beside storage space and studio support, HD DVD is superior in every way to Blu-Ray. HD DVD came out with full interactivity and picture-in-picture with the first units. First generation standalong Blu-Ray players couldn't handle BD-J. Maybe some of the Blu-Ray players can now, I don't know.

I don't claim to know who is going to win. I want HD DVD to win simply because it is cheaper, more consumer friendly, not backed by the very evil Sony (HD DVD is backed by the evil Microsoft, but they aren't very evil like Sony), and does things Blu-Ray can't. But, I won't cry if Blu-Ray wins. If I could afford a player, or a even PS3, I would buy Blu-Ray movies.

Really, if not for PS3, Blu-Ray would be DOA. PS3 saved Blu-Ray.


RE: HD-DVD: DOA
By Gatt on 3/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: HD-DVD: DOA
By VIAN on 3/2/2007 10:59:21 PM , Rating: 2
HD DVD wasn't DOA. The only reason the studios were supporting Sony was because they knew the PS3 was going to ship and sell faster than HD DVD standalone players. Otherwise, they'd go with the cheaper to license, by at least half, HD DVD format. Movies may sell the format, but if people can't afford the player than how are movies going to sell the format. If HD DVD players get cheap enough, it may be all it needs to win.

Interactivity and special features are very important. I remember I Special Edition of Apollo 13, IIRC, took the top spot in DVD sales, just because it was 10th anniversary or some crap. That's stupid, but it happens.

If BluRay at one point becomes cheaper or equal in price to HD DVD players, then there is no way that HD DVD is going to win. I'll just buy a standalone BluRay player if that happens. Until then, I'll keep my fingers crossed.


RE: HD-DVD: DOA
By AlexWade on 3/3/2007 8:49:36 AM , Rating: 1
HD DVD was not DOA because HD DVD exceeded expectations. HD DVD may be dead in the future, but it is not now or was it upon arrival. In fact, I predict that if they get out sub $200 players by Christmas, they will win the format war. What is the point of more movies if you can't afford to watch them? It is the reason why I don't have a Blu-Ray player of any type. I want one, I can't afford it. I do have the HD DVD add-on, but after trade-in's and a stupid $50 Cingular rebate card instead of a rebate check I paid about $100 for it. Otherwise, like most people, I wouldn't have either.

I didn't say Microsoft wasn't evil, just that they are less evil that Sony. The three most evil companies are Sony, Qualcomm, and Rambus. All three screw the customers and expect them just to take it.

Interactivity isn't important to people who never see it. The picture-in-picture support for HD DVD is awesome. It is the reason why Batman Begins isn't on Blu-Ray. You have to see it to really appreciate it. HD DVD movies will put commentaries or alternate angles at the right time in the movie.


RE: HD-DVD: DOA
By Pandamonium on 3/3/2007 11:27:14 AM , Rating: 2
The protected path video, I am sure, was implemented at the request of large organizations like the MPAA.


RE: HD-DVD: DOA
By SiN on 3/5/2007 6:31:21 AM , Rating: 2
I feel people are misguiding some here, MS did the shoe-horning of HDCP because of hollywood (arrogant pricks, i hate hollywood) to prevent the previously open ability to pirate. Now limited in vista, but not unreachable.
Blu-ray was adopted much more widely not just becuase of the Playstation brand and the idea of injecting the consumer market with Blu-ray players like the PS2 did for DVD, but also the extra BR+ protection , as apposed to only AACS. Fully maximised profits, the only words any company wants heard at the board meetings.


RE: HD-DVD: DOA
By Warder45 on 3/5/2007 9:28:52 AM , Rating: 2
HD-DVD also has the support of the porn industry. We'll have to wait and see if that has any effect.


RE: HD-DVD: DOA
By Hawkido on 3/5/2007 1:26:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
HD DVD came out swinging. In fact, beside storage space and studio support, HD DVD is superior in every way to Blu-Ray.


WOW! That is almost word for word how they described BetaMax.

quote:
... beside storage space and studio support...


Uhh.... What else is there in a movie disc format you would need?

quote:
HD DVD came out with full interactivity and picture-in-picture with the first units. First generation standalong Blu-Ray players couldn't handle BD-J


Okay, now this is just silly. This has nothing to do with the disc nor the format. This is just crappy product development by who ever made those particular devices. It's like blaming VHS because your particular VCR doesn't have stereo I/O and a programmable clock for recording. QQ My car doesn't have AC! Wahh! All cars are terrible, I'll buy a truck cause they have AC. The features you are talking about are not features of the format, they are features of the player. You could probably switch the drive and licenses out of the players that you mentioned and get just the opposite result, with HD DVD lacking the above features.

Consumer Beware. Study your product before you blow XXX dollars on it.


Wow.
By Symmetriad on 3/2/2007 3:56:15 PM , Rating: 5
You know, I don't think Sony is the EVIL EMPIRE, and I don't think the PS3 is an unmitigated failure - far from it. But their PR machine these days is a horrific disaster. Every word that comes out of their collective mouth turns into either a running joke, or reinforces the stereotype of corporate arrogance.

If Sony wants to get out of this enormous PR hole they're finding themselves in these days, here's a hint for them: STOP DIGGING.




RE: Wow.
By Spartan Niner on 3/2/2007 4:33:10 PM , Rating: 2
They need to do themselves a favor and hire people from the marketing departments of Monster and Bose... wait, did I just say the unthinkable?


RE: Wow.
By BladeVenom on 3/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: Wow.
By smitty3268 on 3/2/2007 7:03:43 PM , Rating: 3
Or maybe Dick Cheney - he's a little more arrogant.


RE: Wow.
By hergieburbur on 3/4/2007 12:02:37 AM , Rating: 2
Sad but all to true. They've been shooting themselves in the foot like a scared draftee pissing his pants...

Not to say all draftees are scared or cowards, please people have a sense of humor before you get bent out of shape :)


Great Idea
By motors4fun on 3/2/2007 6:16:33 PM , Rating: 3
I don't really understand what everyone is complaining about. The PS3 is a great machine and well worth the price. You could not buy a HD dvd player that plays games and a host of other things for 600 dollars. I think this is a steal at 600. Blu Ray player, gaming system, Multimedia capabilities all for 600 bucks. This is a steal as far as i am concerned. Everything I need in one package.




RE: Great Idea
By bysmitty on 3/2/2007 6:52:57 PM , Rating: 3
^ That is great... if you are looking for all of those things. Personally, I am only interested in the gaming portion of this machine. I don't watch movies and I have a computer hooked up to the same screen as my video game consoles so those features are pointless to me. My personal max for a gaming machine is $300 and both Nintendo and MS have delivered great products to me at or under that price. If you want a gaming system w/ blu-ray and multimedia, then the PS3 is a steal. If you are only looking for gaming, it is priced way out of the park.

...bysmitty


RE: Great Idea
By Teletran1 on 3/3/2007 1:26:57 AM , Rating: 2
Personally I don't play games 24/7 like I did when I was a kid. I like the fact that you can watch HD Movies on this system. My GF does too. (She's not a big gamer) If it was only a game player I would use it half as much as I currently do. I have enough games for PS3 that I don't care about an apparent lack of games and my Blu-Ray collection is coming along nicely.


RE: Great Idea
By pugster on 3/6/2007 4:13:29 PM , Rating: 2
Sony have some ways to go because their games don't utilize 100% of the hardware that the ps3 can muster. Remember that people brought ps2's when a dvd player cost around just as much. Perhaps people are doing it for the same reason for a blue ray player. I would give it some time the big players start making some quality games and Sony lowering prices of that console so ordinary joes can start buying into it.

Meanwhile, nintendo just made wii, which is essentially a gamecube with a faster processor. Developers who was making a game for gamecube can easily do it for a wii. Nintendo is already making money on each console it sells and making headwinds with their wiiconnect feature.

I would say that wii will win in the short run because some parent figure that he/she can buy a wii with some games for the price of a ps3 console itself.


SOny VS MS
By jay2o01 on 3/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: SOny VS MS
By ATC on 3/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: SOny VS MS
By Gatt on 3/2/2007 10:13:47 PM , Rating: 2
I'll give you the hard drive issue.

Wireless? Useless. High latency, random drops depending on what's in your area, too insecure. HDMI? For what? Sure it lets you output the new sound formats for the new HD formats, but if you're not using it as a Player, just like the BR drive it's pointless.

Sony packs all of this stuff in the box, forces it down the buyers throat, and sings it's praises. MS offers it to you as an add-on and gives you the option of paying for it.

And I've gotta tell you, the point of BR has absolutely nothing to do with games. I've seen perhaps 2-3 games that actually required a DVD's space, I doubt highly in the last 8 weeks the space requirements for a game jumped a factor of 12. The BR drive is there to subsidize the BR Player's production and increase BR's installed base, so as to insure that BR will be the HD media and guarantee a rather large "free" revenue stream.


RE: SOny VS MS
By ATC on 3/3/2007 1:31:34 PM , Rating: 2
in reply to Gatt's post:

Your point is valid with regards to gaming online and wireless, but there are other scenarios out there.

I don't play online but I would still like to get system updates and use the built-in internet browser for surfing in my living room without a PC. I don't have wired-internet in my living room but I do have a wireless router/modem on my PC.

So for me it was positive that Sony included the wireless internet adaptor into the PS3. And for my 360 I had to go out and buy it for $125CAD (incl. Tax) to do the same thing, without internet browsing of course.

And I know I'm not the only one who doesn't play online but appreciates the wireless built-into the PS3.

Secondly, just because MSFT said initially that HDMI is crap doesn't mean that it is. In fact I guarantee you that the next iteration of the 360 will have it. Why? Because it's a digital single-cable solution that's mess-free and your $10 HDMI is as good as the $150 Monster Cable HDMI. Almost every TV coming out now has not one but two HDMI inputs and some I've seen have 3 plus HDMI inputs. I certainly cannot say the same thing about Component.

There will always be those who argue that being forced to buy all the stuff and no option to customise is wrong and I concede that it may be less flexible to some.

But for others it's quite the opposite. I have a home theatre room and I take pride in the wiring and the clean facade of it all. The PS3 for me is an elegant, quiet solution, housing everything in one clean package. Where as my 360 I have stuff protruding out ever which direction like the wireless add-on with the antenna, the HD-DVD add-on with its own connections and power cords, with the 360's power brick etc..etc..

There are always positives and negatives with whichever solution companies bring and what is positive to one may well be a negative to another.

So the 360 and its flexibility is better for some while the PS3's total but rigid package is more suited to others. Attacking others' requirements and tastes is purely narrow minded.


RE: SOny VS MS
By biohazard420420 on 3/5/2007 7:50:55 PM , Rating: 2
I would have to agree that the BR drive is helping so subsidize the costs of the new format but I think it is a worthy inclusion in the PS3. There was an argument made earlier about different features being available on the HD DVD or on the Blu Ray but features like picture in picture and others that Hd DVD has that BR does not can always be added as simply as making a firmware update to blu ray players. True the early adopters may not have the new functions but they can buy a new player as the price drops. Format specific features only really matter now, they will go by the way side when a winner is declared since you can pick and choose what features you want to have.

For allot of people special features and such that they put on current DVD's are useless since I know allot of people that never watch them. People want the format to watch movies the special features and other format specific additions are pretty minor IMO just icing on the cake nice to have but rarely really used more than once. I prefer Blu Ray specifically for its added storage capacity thats it. True most games and movies wont take up the entire capacity of the disc but it gives developers and movie makers the option to include more. As games progress they take up more and more storage space that is just a given weather its for FMV or higher res textures or better sound the space will slowly get eaten up for good or bad.

I honestly want Blu Ray media for storage on my pc, yes I can buy one now but they are way out of my range. I think the added capacity of BR is going to be the deciding factor since it simply gives all who use the format more options to work with. There is also the fact that the real HD signal 1080P (I think that is right) is useless for the vast majority of users since you need a huge screen to really even take advantage of it, on top of that the majority of people in the USA don't even have HDTV's to watch HD signals, although that is slowly changing. That and in all honesty unless you have perfect vision i.e 20/20 HDTV is not all that worth it since with out good vision you wont be able to make out the details that HDTV and HD media is known for. Does that mean we should abandon HDTV no but it means that by and large HDTV and HD formats are just for show more than anything else simply because people cant really tell a huge marked improvement.

I know there will be someone say oh its a huge difference in quality but IMO there is not. I have 20/15 vision (thats better than perfect for those that don't know and no I'm not bragging) and while I can see a difference between say a dvd and an hd dvd or blu ray the difference is not worth re buying all the movies I own on dvd just for a slight improvement in picture which in general what it boils down to. Generally speaking the correct distance to sit from a tv or screen is 2 times the diagonal distance so for a 50" HDTV you should be sitting between 8 and 9 feet from the screen which mean you really cant make out the super sharp tiny details in the picture. Oh and there is the little nagging problem of an even higher res HD signal coming down the line in the not to distant future.

Ok I am done ranting sorry. LOL


RE: SOny VS MS
By xphile on 3/3/2007 2:04:14 AM , Rating: 4
You talk about fanboys. Lets look at your very own words...

"SOny decides to include..."

"MS decides to make you pay..."

UTTER TOTAL fanboy language in support of Sony as you try and differentiate the two companys doing the same thing (deciding on what was in their consoles). You didnt even realise you were doing it did you?

Never mind how totally WRONG you are just on plain absolute FACT. MS is not making anyone pay anything - you get the choice to buy the add on drive or not - so your argument is now wrong too as well as being lopsided. Even worse it is the OTHER company "making" people pay for their HD drive by making it impossible to opt out of.

Then you go on to lament how using the word Sony gets you flammed. Please seriously, being STUPID gets you flammed - equally whether you support either format.


It's always the smartest decision when...
By Spartan Niner on 3/2/2007 3:56:13 PM , Rating: 5
It's always the smartest decision when you're Sony.




RE: It's always the smartest decision when...
By javiergf on 3/2/2007 4:24:36 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly


By bargetee5 on 3/4/2007 1:01:26 AM , Rating: 2
FTW


Not for Gaming purposes.
By crystal clear on 3/2/2007 11:47:47 PM , Rating: 1
"that are going to propel PlayStation 3 to be a platform that lasts for ten years,"

I bought the PS3 not for Gaming rather for its "technical specifications",which I use it for "other purposes rather than gaming".

Namely its "CELL" processor, its Graphics capabilities,
its Blu-ray drive" & many more items/qualities that can be used for non gaming purposes.
Its very powerful machine,if only you know how to "take the juice out of the machine".

Yes I can afford it & use it for expermental purposes.

Yes its a powerfulmachine & if you have the money to buy it-
then use it for everything but Games & start expermenting.

Use/tap the resources of its powerful components.




RE: Not for Gaming purposes.
By Dactyl on 3/3/2007 1:18:51 AM , Rating: 2
Let me get this straight: you're able to tap into the Cell's processing power in ways that Sony doesn't want?

I thought Sony made it impossible to get the Cell out.

Or do you mean you're holding on to your console, waiting for someone to figure out how to hack the old consoles, and then you'll use that hack?


By crystal clear on 3/3/2007 3:38:06 AM , Rating: 1
I bought this machine on my recent (very)short trip to the USA, with the express purpose for non gaming uses & FOR
EXPERIMENTAL PURPOSES.

Thats my hobby on weekends to play around this machine,with an objective-How to tap this machines potentials(technical)
for non gaming purposes.

Hacker solution from various sites are helpful but also carry their risk (if they work or not).

Reverse engineering is the right way,but very complicated &
time consuming.

I dont know where you are located,but if you can do a course
in Hacking-it helps a lot.

Remember here,you do hacking not for piracy/fraud or any other illegal purposes,but for experimentation on gadgets for your personal uses.Not for any financial gains.

I keep my options "open"-any/all sources/methods/solutions,
even consulting some computer science student/s & software professionals.


RE: Not for Gaming purposes.
By hergieburbur on 3/4/2007 12:08:02 AM , Rating: 2
Sure you can, its called installing Linux, at which point you can get pretty much direct access to the processors capabilities and custom program apps for what you would like them to do. Its not really that difficult, and playing around with that is one of the reasons I bought my PS3.


By crystal clear on 3/4/2007 1:24:53 AM , Rating: 1
"and playing around with that is one of the reasons I bought my PS3.'

People/press etc are so preoccupied with Sony bashing-complaining about prices/games/specifications/etc.
Plus the fanboyism about who/which is better etc.

They seem to ignore the fact that Sony has PUMPED in technology into the PS3 to its full/brim .Its like compressing huge amount of data on a small device.

Guys like you ,me & many more say-

"Hey its cheap in comparison for what I get.Its overflowing with tech & componnents."
"We can manupilate this machine for other purposes & TAKE THE JUICES OUT."

Thats the reason I gave the heading-

RE: Not for Gaming purposes


By crystal clear on 3/4/2007 6:01:29 AM , Rating: 1
Severity:
Critical (Unsigned Code Execution in Hypervisor Mode)

Vendor:
Microsoft

Systems Affected:
All Xbox 360 systems with a kernel version of 4532 (released Oct 31,
2006) and 4548 (released Nov 30, 2006). Versions prior to 4532 are not
affected. Bug was fixed in version 4552 (released Jan 09, 2007 - not a
Patch Tuesday).

Overview:
We have discovered a vulnerability in the Xbox 360 hypervisor that allows
privilege escalation into hypervisor mode. Together with a method to
inject data into non-privileged memory areas, this vulnerability allows
an attacker with physical access to an Xbox 360 to run arbitrary code
such as alternative operating systems with full privileges and full
hardware access.

http://www.securityfocus.com/archive/1/461489/30/0...


...
By shabby on 3/2/2007 3:51:06 PM , Rating: 1
Sony is so smrt...




RE: ...
By miahallen on 3/2/2007 3:52:59 PM , Rating: 3
Leave it to Sony to pat themselves on the back when nobody else will do it for them.


RE: ...
By BladeVenom on 3/2/2007 6:19:10 PM , Rating: 3
Sony's new corporate slogan, "I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and Doggone It, People Like Me!"


10 years?!
By VIAN on 3/2/2007 10:44:17 PM , Rating: 2
“No regrets whatsoever, and it's those kinds of decisions, painful though they were to live through in the last quarter of 2006, those are the decisions that are going to propel PlayStation 3 to be a platform that lasts for ten years, like we've seen with PS1 and PS2 ,” Harrison said. “And it will be, I believe, reflected on as the smartest decision we ever made.”

Highlighted is the real key to Sony's marketing. 10 years my nuts. It doesn't mean that they won't release more powerful hardware in 5 years, it just means that it'll be the cheap little brother, just like the PSOne to the PS2. Don't you love the hype.




RE: 10 years?!
By DarthKojima on 3/3/2007 3:55:59 AM , Rating: 2
Still waiting for the Av-Centric version of PLaystation 3 ;)

http://www.engadget.com/2006/12/20/ken-kutaragi-se...


RE: 10 years?!
By VIAN on 3/3/2007 9:32:49 AM , Rating: 3
This is a quote from the link above:
"In other words, audio and video capabilities first, gaming second (if at all), in a device built around the Cell-processor platform."

Here is a quote from the Dailytech Article:
"We needed to have Blu-ray disc from a game design point of view."

These statements obviously conflict. All Sony PRs are lying through their teeth.


You get what you pay for
By LanSolo on 3/6/2007 7:34:26 AM , Rating: 2
The PS3 is a better system, plain and simple. People who whine about the cost are just CHEAP. Stop being such a miser, and shell out the cash for a quality piece of technology.

Otherwise, go get yourself a bargain-level gaming system, if that's how you want to be entertained.




RE: You get what you pay for
By mydogfarted on 3/6/2007 5:18:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Otherwise, go get yourself a bargain-level gaming system, if that's how you want to be entertained.


Have you played with a Wii? Most fun I've had gaming in a long time, for almost half the cost of the top XBox360 and nearly 1/3 the cost of the loaded PS3.


RE: You get what you pay for
By mmike87 on 3/7/2007 12:36:40 PM , Rating: 2
I pretty much agree.

$600 - who cares? A year ago there were thousands of people paying that much just for the graphics card in their PC. PC gamers will dish out $2500 for a new "gaming" PC and no one complains. Then they will spend $1000 every 18 months or so updating it. At least.

Technically, the graphics are "last year" compared to PC graphics. So what? Who cares? Are not graphics GOOD ENOUGH now, anyways?

The advantage of a console is and always has been a stable development platform. Over the years, developers are able to squeeze amazing capabilities out of a console because of this fact. My 7 year old and I still buy and play new PS2 games (on our PS3) because even though they are designed for an "old" console, they games are very, very good in terms of playability. The graphics are not great, but it's utterly amazing what they are doing with a 292 MHz processor.

With a console, you pay $300, 4, 5, or 6 hundred ONE TIME. And you get games for years. PC's will always have better graphics than consoles ... because PC gamers typically have larger budgets. They have to. And PC games typically lag years behind the system abilities as well. Take Oblivion for instance - just now there are PC's able to run the game with everything turned on and max detail. Barely.

Stop whining about the PS3. If you like the capabilities, shell out the cash. If you cannot afford it, get a PS2 - they are cheap and the games are good. Or a Wii. Or a 360. There are options.

The PS3 is not expensive. In fact, over the course of the life of the console, the cost of the machine is tiny compared to what an average gamer will spend in games during that same time period. Is anyone really saying that over 5, 6, or 7 years that $400 vs. $600 makes a difference? Add up the cost of how many games a real gamer would purchase over 7 years at $50-60 each. What percentage of your total outlay is the $600? Better yet - what percentage is the $200 discount that would have made the PS3 price "reasonable" at $400? If you plan on using the BlueRay player in addition to gaming, then the cost percentage goes down more. Also factor in the Sony's online stuff is free - extend that out for 7 years.

Folks need a reality check.


Bullshat!
By lamestlamer on 3/2/2007 7:15:10 PM , Rating: 2
Including the Blu-Ray drive at launch was not "future proofing". Including an ability to play games off of new media would have been. Lets say that in 4 years, the DVD9 format is actually becoming a limiting factor in game development. If Sony built the PS3 to interface with a next gen storage expansion drive, then later, when Blu-Ray or HD-DVD drives are $50 or less, you could tack one on and play the latest game with hours of ingame HD movie clips and 5 GB of uncompressed textures and redundant models.

Hell, you want futureproof? Allow the PS3 to be upgradeable and more modular. Giving the bloody thing 1 gig of memory would be better future proofing than adding a ridiculously large removable storage.

Or better yet, make it pastproof. That's right, give the bloody thing scaling to talk nicely to 90% of HDTV's on the market.




RE: Bullshat!
By crystal clear on 3/3/2007 12:03:52 AM , Rating: 1
"Allow the PS3 to be upgradeable and more modular"

YES -you are right on this.

YES- give him COMPLETE FREEDOM to do what he want his machine.

Yes the Buyer should have the freedom to upgrade as he likes-let it be memory,Storage,& more.

Let him UPGRADE/BUILD ON - as & when he likes/what he likes-in the span of 10 years.

Dont limit his freedom either in HARDWARE & SOFTWARE-give him -

COMPLETE FREEDOM


RE: Bullshat!
By Dactyl on 3/3/2007 1:32:53 AM , Rating: 2
I like complete freedom, which is why I stopped buying consoles at N64, and went with the PC. Plus, I much prefer mouse/keyboard for first-person shooters.

But the console makers often sell them at below hardware cost, so they can profit off of game sales. If they're going to do that, they have every right to dictate how it can be used.

It would be nice if MS would release an XBox 360 special edition that buyers could use however they wanted. MS could charge, say, $800 for it (a fair price, if the bill of materials is $575).
http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/80708/isuppli-reckonin...

In fact, they should publicly state today that on January 1, 2009, they will unlock all XBox 360 consoles to run Linux however the home users want. That would give them plenty of time to profit before giving a benefit to their buyers.


What is the point of this article?
By rupaniii on 3/2/2007 7:33:57 PM , Rating: 2
Seriously, was anything stated in this article NEWS?

Future proof?
Yeah, once I plug in my USB 500gb hard drive and once Sony allows me to read and write data to an IP based storage device.
BluRay is nice, really, it is. But, there's always more more more.




By viperpa on 3/2/2007 10:36:06 PM , Rating: 3
Sure they may of thought of the future for the console but they didn't think if the consumer was willing to spend $600 for what is essentially a gaming console. Sure the die hard gamers will run out and buy it but the average parent buying it for there kid won't. Parent's care about price, they don't give a hoot all it can do.


Future Proofing?
By splines on 3/3/2007 6:38:34 AM , Rating: 2
Anytime someone starts talking about future-proofing a console, I get nervous.

The PS2 lasted as long as it did because Sony lumped the PS3 with a Blu-Ray drive and a low-yield processor, and thus ended up with a much longer development time. They didn't necessarily intend for the PS2 to last as long as it did, especially the continued software support. End of Story.




RE: Future Proofing?
By VIAN on 3/3/2007 9:35:27 AM , Rating: 2
And don't forget how much longer the PS2 will last considering the slow adoption rate of the PS3.


OK enough already
By cochy on 3/3/2007 4:01:15 AM , Rating: 2
I've always liked Sony, but enough is enough. All they do now is freaking talk! "I'll give you $1200"..."We'll fix the shortage"..."Wii is an implus buy"..."Blu-ray pwns we're so smart".

Hey, how about all you Sony big wigs stfu already and start working on getting some decent software out for us to friggin play!

You don't get paid to TALK.

GAH
(Couldn't even be bothered to read the article)




Problems
By Trisped on 3/4/2007 1:35:19 AM , Rating: 2
While Sony has been close to the front with media in their systems, never before has their system been the poster child for a new media. CDs were well established before the PS picked it up. DVDs were still new, but working movie players had been on the market for a while before they even launched the PS2. Now they are trying to launch a new format that hasn't been proved and say that it is required?

Yes, people are using the 25GB, but how much of that is really needed? If you get rid of movies that are not rendered in game you can easily fit in that 8GB limitation. You can also ship with 2 disks, one for loading the game, and the other as a play disk. And as for needing more content to drive the "powerful cell processor" they could easily use the cell to decompress the data from more advanced and complicated compression systems. They could even generate the data from basic parameters. The only thing I can think of in a game now that would give a noticeable return in space saved are moves which are rendered in game rather than pre-rendered and then displayed. You could also do it with music, cutting the song into its basic instruments and cutting those into sections, then you paste them together at run time to create your varying music. That would be cool because gamers could have greater control over the music, specifying how load each instrument is, and the patterns they play.

Too tell you the truth though; the Sony PR machine is starting to work on me. They have been posting bad news and half truths for so long that I almost feel sorry for them, and want to believe their excuses are true. It’s not that I hate Sony, I just have a hard time respecting a company that has to make thinks up to convince me that they made a good decision with their product. If what they say is true then they would be stepping back and saying, "Just wait, you will see."

Here's to hoping for a new Sony PR group and better president or CEO or whatever over gaming. It isn't that the products are bad, it’s that the higher ups who make the big decisions are not doing the job the company needs.




What are consoles for?
By Arribajuan on 3/4/2007 6:42:59 PM , Rating: 2
I think the worst mistake here is the lack focus.

The PC has to do with a lot of chores, spreadsheets, email, etc. They also handle gaming, but it gets expensive.

A console was supposed to handle only gaming very well and made things simpler (no multiple platform testing, etc) and less expensive as a result.

With consoles now trying to be a gaming console, dvd player, high definition bargain, media extender, supercomputer, etc, etc, etc the gaming part became less important.

This has happened to both ps3 and 360 at a lesser amount.

I just wish we could have GAMING CONSOLES to play games and I expect simple to use hardware, no hd wars or connectors nonsense. And above all I expect it to be cheaper than a gaming pc.




Bluray
By Oobu on 3/5/2007 4:23:16 PM , Rating: 2
75% of the reason I bought my PS3 was for the Bluray, the 25% was for gaming.




Video says it all
By KaerfSusej on 3/6/2007 6:28:39 PM , Rating: 2
By alitayyab on 3/7/2007 1:35:09 AM , Rating: 2
I do believe that both BR and HD are the future. But i am sure that Ps3 didnt need it at all.
If sony are only concerned with getting the best out of the ps3 and have no ulterior motvies, then perhaps they should've shipped the ps with DVD. They both arrived pretty much in the same time frame. Why stick a CD-ROM in it? (a design relic from snes expnasion??).CD-ROMS already existedin consoles before ps. 3DO had used it, heck even commodore had used it twice before (CDTV, CD32). Why stick with an older format???

I'm a 100% that this was sony's way to thrawt HD-DVD and avoid the disaster that beta-max turned out to be. Even of they cant sell enough BR-Players, they must've thought we'll get enough PS3 out to warrant major release on out format




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