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Hardware Sony, Pioneer Blu-ray Players Delayed
Brandon Hill (Blog) - June 12, 2006 12:20 PM
Print E-mail del.icio.us 52 comment(s) - last by namechamps.. on Jun 15 at 1:44 PM

Sony BDP-S1
Sony pushes back launch date until mid-August

Sony's BDP-S1 and Pioneer's BDP-HD1 are being delayed. Both Blu-ray players were expected to be released later this month, but Sony now plans to release its $1,000 USD player around August 15th while Pioneer is aiming for September.

No reason was cited for Sony's delay, but Pioneer points to compatibility issues surrounding the launch of its $1,500 USD BDP-HD1. Said Andy Parson, senior vice president of Pioneer Electronics USA, "We decided to hold off for bit just to make sure everything works well relative to all the various studios that are planning to ship BD titles."

For those keeping score, HD-DVD players have been in Best Buy stores for quite some time now. Gameindustry.biz reports:

The delays raise questions about the development process of the Blu-Ray format - and concerns over whether the format will be able to build up significant momentum in time for the launch of the PlayStation 3 this November. However, Samsung is still scheduled to launch its Blu-Ray player on June 25th, around the same time as the first movie titles will appear in shops.

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Blu-Ray slipping
By DrKlahn on 6/12/2006 1:48:06 PM , Rating: 2
There a few things worth noting. First the Toshiba players are not mediocre. The responses on the various A/V forums are very positive, especially in light of the latest firmware update. Second the initial Blu-Ray releases will be on sinle layer 25GB BD discs using MPEG-2 opposed to HD-DVD which has been using VC-1 on 30GB (dual layer) media. So the initial Blu-Ray releases will be using a more inefficient codec (MPEG-2 takes about twice the space) on smaller media. The fear is that this will result in the intial Blu-Ray titles actually looking worse than the competitions. Blu-Ray will be able to display 1080p on the first generation players whereas the current HD-DVD players will only output 1080i (though HD-DVD's are mastered 1080p). Though this is a questionable advantage due to the lack of 1080p displays and the good results people have seen scaling from 1080i to 1080p. In the future both formats will be using VC-1 and MPG-4 and the players will all output 1080p, so from a picture quality standpoint, it will be a wash. As it stands now Blu-Ray has studio support, HD-DVD has a definite price advantage. If studios decide to support HD-DVD, then Blu-Ray may be in serious jeopardy. Myself I still think Blu-Ray has the edge due to studio support. But it's no longer a sure thing.




RE: Blu-Ray slipping
By masher2 (blog) on 6/12/2006 2:01:43 PM , Rating: 2
Unless the media prices for Blu-Ray are significantly less than current projections, HD-DVD is going to win handily. No one is going to pay $40 for a Hi-def movie...not when HD-DVD gives them the same thing for $20-$30.


RE: Blu-Ray slipping
By xbdestroya on 6/12/2006 2:07:43 PM , Rating: 2
Well, Amazon offers some good BD pricing, so I would hope/imagine that BD movie pricing in other venues will decrease fairly readily with time.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/search/ref=br_ss_hs/104-1...


RE: Blu-Ray slipping
By xbdestroya on 6/12/2006 2:04:30 PM , Rating: 3
I agree to an extent. The codec choice and the initial disc sizes will work to diminish the 'quality' edge B;u-ray enjoys. Still though, I don't see the Pioneer and Sony delays as being all that big a deal if Samsung still manages to launch this month. Samsung has a strong enough name in the CE space these days that they can serve well as the 'champion' for Blu-ray against Toshiba's player for the time being.

Two of Blu-rays biggest advantages at the present time are studio support (the fact that Sony owns three studios ensures a bloody fight here, and provides an incentive for studios to just go ahead and support Blu-ray), and the support Blu-ray seems to enjoy from the PC component manufacturers; lot's of BD burners and media on the horizon.

It's a race against time though, as the longer HD-DVD goes unchalleneged, the more of a foothold it can gain.


RE: Blu-Ray slipping
By TheDoc9 on 6/12/2006 2:32:01 PM , Rating: 2
I really think that blue ray is going to launched with a bigger response than HD-DVD - with movies on shelf, BD players bieng pushed by sales people, ect.

Mpeg 2 is actually better quality than mpe4 because of less compression. So that comment somewhere above was inacurate. Also I'm sure that these first players will read dual layer BD's which is 50GB. Just because the first movies come on single layer BD's means the studio's are playing it safe by release the product on the cheaper disk incase BD fails... A 1080P movie should fit on a 25GB disc without too many issues.

I think sony has a win on their hands.


RE: Blu-Ray slipping
By hmurchison on 6/12/2006 3:11:31 PM , Rating: 2
Launch to a bigger response?? Ok let's see..Sony and Pioneer are not hitting until Aug and Sept. Samsung says they will ship this month but in what quantities? At $999 and a delay in some BD titles

http://www.dvdtown.com/announcement/sonydelayssome...

I doubt you see more movies than what are already available with HD DVD.

MPEG2 and MPEG4 suit different needs. MPEG 4 was created to use much less space. Both formats utilize MPEG2 MPEG4 Part 10 (aka h.264 or AVC) and VC-1. MPEG2 is not better than AVC or VC-1 purely from a technical standpoint. MPEG2 is a mature technology but I've viewied VC-1 and AVC at 16-18Mbps and they both look as good or superior to MPEG2 at 20+ MBPS.

Of course we know they'll read 50GB DL BD-ROM discs but the fact that the hardware is delayed and Sony's release schedule for DL discs is very poor it's beginning to look like HD DVD is the sane solution that works and yields appropriately from the start.

I think Sony has a loss on their hands unless they correct their rectal cranial inversion and get the damn format out into the public. Ever since CES 06 they've pretty much executed their strategy like crap.


RE: Blu-Ray slipping
By michal1980 on 6/12/06, Rating: -1
RE: Blu-Ray slipping
By hmurchison on 6/12/2006 3:52:18 PM , Rating: 2
Please save us the "Sony Haters" diatribe. Even current PS2 owners know how sony can hype a product and then either fail to deliver or deliver very late. Remember the hyperbole over the emotion engine?

Facts are the Playstation 3 will make an impact for Blu-Ray and game consoles. However Microsoft has a huge lead for Xbox. What they'll have like 5 million boxes in living rooms by the PS3's launch? Plus microsoft has stated they'll have a low cost HD-DVD option as well which guarantees that the purchaser will be buying/renting movies because it has no gaming functionality.

You guys actually think 6 million players are sold overnight? There aren't even enough drives to sell 6 million in a quarter. If Sony was on its P's and Q's they'd have been shipping their player and not delaying it.

No one's hating sony but we're not sticking our heads in the sand and playing "make believe" either.



RE: Blu-Ray slipping-hmurchison
By michal1980 on 6/12/06, Rating: -1
By hmurchison on 6/12/2006 4:18:18 PM , Rating: 1
Michal1980

I agree with you that the PS3 is going to take the crown. I think Sony has too many loyal buyers who will shell out for a PS3. I'm just unsure if it'll translate to a device that yeilds a tremendous amount of movie sales however. All the gamers I know are hooked on gaming an not necessarily movie buffs.

Microsoft's add on HD DVD player is a little weak (720 support and no HDMI) but anyone buying one for an xbox is guaranteed to be watching movies. It's a little easier to gauge who is an isn't watching movies.

It's going to be interesting to say the least. Sony is a company I have a love/hate relationship with. love their innovation and style hate that they always love to promote their own homegrown tech at the expense of the industry. I'll take the good with the bad here though. I'm likely a future PS3 owner.


RE: Blu-Ray slipping
By masher2 (blog) on 6/12/2006 4:03:50 PM , Rating: 2
> "hmm which format will I put my movie on?"

The "format war" is largely a nonissue. By the time most people are buying, dual-format players will be ubiquitous....and the average consumer will neither know nor care whether his Hi-Def disk is HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. It's only an issue for us early adopters.


RE: Blu-Ray slipping
By DrKlahn on 6/12/2006 4:21:31 PM , Rating: 2
To clarify I am not a Sony hater. I have owned several high end Sony components (65"HDTV, S9000ES DVD player, TA/TN 9000ES preamp/amp, Sony 4hd VCR) including their $1000 S7000 DVD player, which I purchased in July of '97. So I am not anti-Sony. The PS3, in my opinion, will not make the impact that the Blu-Ray proponents hope for. I know several friends that bought a PS2 when they were first released (most paying well above retail) and not one of them used a PS2 for their DVD player. I realize this just my experience, but as many gamers as I know this does say something to me on how people view their game consoles. Perhaps my experience is not the norm here.


HD-DVD install base
By ViperROhb34 on 6/12/2006 8:05:24 PM , Rating: 2

The install base of HD-DVD will be larger then Blu Ray.
When BLu Ray has 3 million HD-DVD will have twice that.

Thing is.. 'some'.. although not many people, are over estimating the PS3. I know alot of PS2 owners who arent buying one.

In a poll that was I beleive posted here on daily tech somewhat recnetly had shown more people in Japan were more interested in Nintendo Wii then Ps3..

One reason is alot of people will not see the great advantages of Ps3 because they will be playing on regular tv.. sorry to break the news.. but reality is alot of people wont go out and buy PS3 to play high def games and watch high def movies - Why ?? Because they dont have nor can they afford a High Def tv..

Xbox 360 sales have been maybe 12 million.. PS3 will sell slower.. it cost more..

Who cares about a 60 gig HD on Ps3 ?
Xbox 360 doesnt need a big HD.. Windows Vita ( built in media center ) allows streaming of movies, video, music, pics from PC hardrive to Xbox at the 100 speed ( on a 10/100 ethernet ) through the router..

HD-DVD install base with Xbox will boost that more


I still hope
By ncage on 6/12/2006 12:48:57 PM , Rating: 2
I still hope HD-DVD wins the war mainly because of price. I am quite suprised lately it seems like more companies are supporting BR. Most of the new read/recorders you hear about are BR and not HD-DVD but of course this doesn't mean BR has won. Companies can make BR devices that want to if the consumers decide not to buy them then it won't win. I am VERY suprised to see toshiba making a BR unit.




RE: I still hope
By mushi799 on 6/12/2006 3:01:33 PM , Rating: 3
i rather have blu-ray. Price does not matter because it will come down in time. I rather pay the same amount of money for a 25 gig disc instead of a 15 gig.



By namechamps on 6/12/2006 3:21:14 PM , Rating: 3
Blue Ray if a far more advanced system. EVERYTHING is more expensive. The read only media, writable media, players, recorders, even the pickup head.

There was an article in inquirer comparing the cost to produce (not sell but production costs) of DVD pickup head, HD-DVD pickup and BR pickup head. The DVD pickup head is essentially a commodity item, the HD-DVD pickup head was rather exepensive about 12X the cost, the Blue Ray pickup head was currently 100X the cost and very low yields.

HD-DVD media is basicly a DVD media with tracks & pits packed about 3X closer due to smaller wavelength of the blue laser. The production cost is essentially the same as a DVD and most DVD production lines can either be converter cheaply to HD-DVD or designed as a dual format production line

Blue Ray once again is vasly different and requires completely new technology.

You can see this is the currently available products
1) HD-DVD players have been out almost a month and started @
2) Blueray wont be out for another couple months and will start @ $1000 each.
3) HD-DVD movies are available @ amazon for SAME price as DVD movies. Blue Ray movies dont exist yet.

So HD-DVD players start at about half the cost of BlueRay disk. HD-DVD cost about same as DVD while Blueray costs more. What exactly is indicating to u that Blueray will be same price as HD-DVD?


By ElJefe69 on 6/12/2006 11:36:45 PM , Rating: 2
true hd cannot be viewed on a hd-dvd

wtf is that crap for if it can't do 1080P at full frames?

EVERY new high tv will be 1080P as standard. I can't see my 20 dollar disk being of LOWER quality than my broadcast channel!

plus, the US is a really wealthy place, no one really cares what costs more, they will buy it anyway.

vhs's were 50 dollars a tape or more. people bought MANY of them. discount was 20 dollars for a 2 year old movie. that was in the 80's




By abhaxus on 6/13/2006 5:07:24 AM , Rating: 2
what are you talking about? HD-DVD discs are encoded at 1080p. The limiting factor right now is the first generation HD-DVD players from Toshiba which only support 1080i output.

Coincidentally, 1080i with proper pulldown doesn't lose any information for 24p film sources. watching an HD-DVD film on a 1080p TV like the sony SXRDs looks fantastic with no deinterlacing artifacts to be seen.

on my PC star wars episode 3 takes up 9.5gb in mpeg2 1080i, for a 2 hour 20 minute film. HD-DVD discs store 30gb, so even if you double the required space to 19 GB for mpeg2 quality 1080p, you have another hour of full HD res special features. Nevermind the fact that HD-DVD discs use h.264 while blu-ray's first generation releases will use mpeg2...

perhaps you should research hd-dvd before you spout off about it. personally, i wish we didnt have to deal with a format war. i think hd-dvd would overwhelmingly win if not for the PS3, because they have won over more studios. but we will see in a year which format is winning out.


By namechamps on 6/15/2006 1:44:43 PM , Rating: 2
"true hd cannot be viewed on a hd-dvd"

Spoken like someone who only understands FUD and likely doesn't even have a 1080P display. Sigh.

Here are some corrections
1) Most 1080P displays have 1080i INPUTS. So if u hook a BR player to a 1080P display with 1080i input it will output as 1080i and the TV will convert from interlaced to progressive @ either 1080P30 or 1080P24 (for film content). Same as HD-DVD.

2) HD-DVD can output at 1080P since disk is encoded at 1080P. The current HD-DVD player ouputs only 480I, 480P, 720P, 1080I likely since the player was made before 1080P inputs hit the market. As per point for 99% of HDTV out there this is a non issue. For the <1% HDTV with 1080P screen AND 1080P input the HDTV will simply convert the input from 1080I/60 to 1080P30 (or 24). The conversion is done digitally and therefore without loss of quality. Since there is no technical reason expect 1080P HD-DVD to hit market eventually.

3) As for broadcast TV being better than HD-DVD that is a laugh. Broadcast TV maxes @ 1080I so dont expect anything better from sat, cable or OTA (once again if your TV is 1080P it will deinterlace it but it will do same for HD-DVD_. Also the bitrate of broadcast TV maxes @ 18Megabit however most stations are broadcasting @ much less than that 12Megabit is common to allow for subchannels. So HD-DVD is encoded @ 1080P vs 1080i and has higher bitrate that broadcast so explain how / why it is better.

So the only thing technical advantages BR has are:
1) higher capacity which is useful for storage but not useful for HDTV. Actually the first BR disks are not 50GB they are single layer 25GB because of yield issues so the bitrate is slighly LOWER than HD-DVD not that anyone would be able to notice. 30GB is more than enough for 2 - 2.5 hours of content with 1080P resolution and high bitrate. Remember mpeg4 based conpressions are much more efficent than mpeg2 (used in DVD).

2) 1080P output is a technical plus however it only affect a tiny portion of HDTV owners. And you are comparing a spec for a player that has not been released with on on market right now.

So I stand by the statement that BR will cost more (players, recorders & media) and will offer nothing better than HD-DVD (for movies). The only reason BR is around is because of content providers not any technical issue with HD-DVD.