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Gadgets Sony Patents Motion Tracking Controller
Marcus Yam (Blog) - December 16, 2006 3:10 AM
Print 66 comment(s) - last by rcc.. on Dec 18 at 6:01 PM

There are four lights! - Image courtesy Unwired View

TV on ground; gamer on feet - Image courtesy Unwired View

Sony's drawing of a gaming wand - Image courtesy Tech On!
Smells like Wii spirit

Sony’s attempt to quietly patent new controller technologies did not go unnoticed by members of the online press. The Unwired View found that U.S. Patent application 20060282873 was published for Sony on December 14, 2006 for a “Hand-held Controller Having Detectable Elements for Tracking Purposes.” The patent was originally filed on May 8, 2006 -- exactly one day before the Wii controller was publically demonstrated at E3.

An array of photonically detectable elements, likely to be LEDs, can be mounted or built into a game controller and be sensed by an image capturing device when the elements are oriented at least partly towards the screen.

The image-capturing device proposed in the patent is a camera, though it is unclear if it is a traditional camera like the EyeToy peripheral for PS2. As stated in the patent’s description:

Detecting and tracking a user's manipulations of a game controller body may be implemented in different ways. For example, in some embodiments a camera peripheral can be used with the computer entertainment system to detect motions of the hand-held controller body and transfer them into actions in a game. The camera can be used to detect many different types of motions of the controller, such as for example up and down movements, twisting movements, side to side movements, jerking movements, wand-like motions, plunging motions, etc. Such motions may correspond to various commands such that the motions are transferred into actions in a game.

Detecting and tracking the user's manipulations of a game controller body can be used to implement many different types of games, simulations, etc., that allow the user to, for example, engage in a sword or lightsaber fight, use a wand to trace the shape of items, engage in many different types of sporting events, engage in on-screen fights or other encounters, etc.

Sony filed a similar patent in Japan earlier this year, which details the method of a wireless motion device that can be sensed by a camera peripheral.

The move can be perceived as a validation of Nintendo’s innovative Wii controller, or perhaps it is just a way for Sony to protect itself from threats of patent infringement should it choose to introduce such a peripheral. Sony was hit with a lawsuit amounting to over $80 million in damages over its use of rumble in its DualShock 2 controllers.

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straight rip-off
By arswihart on 12/16/2006 9:13:06 AM , Rating: 5
I'd call it a straight rip-off of the biggest magnitude, if they can get away with it without patent infringment.




RE: straight rip-off
By Ochophosphate on 12/16/2006 10:26:02 AM , Rating: 5
"allow the user to, for example, engage in a sword or lightsaber fight, use a wand to trace the shape of items, engage in many different types of sporting events, engage in on-screen fights or other encounters, etc"

Wow... sounds exactly like what I've been doing with the Wii for the last 3 weeks.


RE: straight rip-off
By michal1980 on 12/16/06, Rating: -1
RE: straight rip-off
By retrospooty on 12/16/2006 12:33:26 PM , Rating: 5
Why is every single comment you make get immediatly reduced to -1. ??? It must be everyone else.


RE: straight rip-off
By tacorly on 12/16/06, Rating: -1
RE: straight rip-off
By aGreenAgent on 12/16/2006 12:45:28 PM , Rating: 2
Hahaha. What if someone else (Like....Nintendo) got the patent first? Then Sony's patent would be invalidated.

Patents don't mean shit until they're held up in court.


RE: straight rip-off
By Googer on 12/16/06, Rating: -1
RE: straight rip-off
By StevoLincolnite on 12/16/06, Rating: 0
RE: straight rip-off
By Le Québécois on 12/16/2006 11:20:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And does anyone else get the annoying "oops somethings gone wrong" message!? It shits me off! happens every time I try and post! Does it in both IE and Firefox. -.- And Preview even does it.


Yes it does happens to me very often. Most of the time I think it's because I take to much time to write and post my comment.

Because of that I use the preview button every sentence I write and now I almost never see that message.

When it still does happens, most of the time a simple "reload" of the page will fixe the problem but just in case I copy my text because sometimes it gets erased in the process.

I'm using the latest build of Firefox 1.5.0.8.



RE: straight rip-off
By xphile on 12/17/2006 12:30:37 AM , Rating: 3
Happened to me all the time until I figured it out...

1) Write your message in notepad or similar if it's going to take for than 2 or so minutes or the post tends to "time out".

2) ALWAYS wait for the page to FULLY load and say done etc BEFORE you click Preview or Post Comment.

Since I adopted these two rules it has never happened again.


RE: straight rip-off
By Le Québécois on 12/17/2006 1:22:59 AM , Rating: 2
Thanks for the tip. I'll try to do that from now on.

Now I just hope Kristopher or any other Dailytech editors are aware of this little problem and can fix it.


RE: straight rip-off
By StevoLincolnite on 12/17/2006 6:46:06 AM , Rating: 2
Testing....
Grrr! Still get the same errors, even after taking your advice.


RE: straight rip-off
By peternelson on 12/17/2006 10:30:43 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed those steps are not enough.

Posting from the UK I get the "something went wrong" message with alarming regularity. It takes several tries of back and trying again before I can finally post.

I'd say it's related to the server not being tolerant of a less than clear web connection ie transatlantic. It's also a problem when I run torrents I have to pause the torrent to post. Also it seems very dependant on the length of the post, ie it's harder to get a long post to work.

Personally I'd like to see further detail shown on the "something went wrong" screen rather than just have those secrets mailed to the administrator, who appears to do nothing to improve the situation.


RE: straight rip-off
By peternelson on 12/17/2006 10:34:01 AM , Rating: 2
Also seems harder to post sucessfully at peak times in the USA, ie when most americans are reading and posting, or the US net traffic is higher generally.

Is the bandwidth at the server end getting saturated?

Surely there is some more reliable protocol for sending a few lines of text (you know, email does pretty well, and ftp).


RE: straight rip-off
By kamel5547 on 12/17/2006 10:01:06 PM , Rating: 2
Have you heard of prior art etc? Plenty of patents get granted by the patent office for things that the company isn't even allowed to get a patent for.

A patent is far from proof of invention... especially when it comes to tech stuff, the patent office can't seem to figure out what already exists and what doesn't.


RE: straight rip-off
By GhandiInstinct on 12/16/2006 4:20:45 PM , Rating: 2
Didn't Sony also knock off dual-shock from the N64 controller?


RE: straight rip-off
By GhandiInstinct on 12/16/2006 4:20:45 PM , Rating: 2
Didn't Sony also knock off dual-shock from the N64 controller?


RE: straight rip-off
By Goty on 12/16/06, Rating: 0
RE: straight rip-off
By jugbander on 12/16/2006 12:12:24 PM , Rating: 5
Sony applied for their patent on May 8, 2006. Nintendo displayed a prototype in September 2005. Here's a link: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6133389.html


RE: straight rip-off
By Goty on 12/16/06, Rating: 0
RE: straight rip-off
By Le Québécois on 12/16/2006 1:14:53 PM , Rating: 4
This has nothing to do with a patent stolen from Nintendo. The end result of both technologies will be the same, but if you read the patents, both technologies are different.

In other words, Sony stole the idea from Nintendo and then developed a technology from it.


RE: straight rip-off
By peternelson on 12/16/2006 4:10:46 PM , Rating: 3
The nintendo wii controller is gyro based AFAIK.

This sony system is camera based.

They are therefore in no way infringing each others patents.

This is actually a filing of a patent APPLICATION by Sony.

Anyway this actually seems rather like the great eye-toy system, I don't see the 4 leds adding much benefit that reflective markers could not provide. This is just an extention of eyetoy where instead of waving body parts, you hold something in your hands.

Potential for some great games, but not revolutionary tech.

I'd be more interested in true 3D motion tracking done with 2 or more cameras. eg the systems used for movies and fight sequence capture in making games. There a person stands surrounded by maybe 24 high speed overhead cameras and wears markers so their moves can be tracked in realtime or postprocessed. This needs to be clever to overcome problems like marker occlusion (where it gets covered from several cameras view). Maybe that's one for the PS4 ;-)


Patent Law
By Ard on 12/16/2006 1:25:08 PM , Rating: 5
It seems a lot of ppl don't really know much about patents or how patent infringement works. If Nintendo failed to file a patent for the Wiimote, then they're SOL. If they did file a patent, that patent protects the process and method surrounding the Wiimote, as well as the Wiimote itself. Patents, much like copyrights, do not protect ideas but rather the methods and the machines associated with those methods.

That said, I'm sure you're all aware of the fact that there are typically a myriad of ways to carry out any single idea. The idea in this instance is a motion sensing controller. Sony is using a different method than Nintendo, meaning their patent is valid on its face. While they may be "copying" Nintendo's idea (though they clearly weren't the first), that doesn't mean they infringed Nintendo's patent.




RE: Patent Law
By LordNorthmore on 12/16/2006 2:33:58 PM , Rating: 2
Even if this patent was blatantly a rip-off of the Wiimote design, the way that the patent process works in the United States works, to my understanding, is that actually holding the patent doesn't protect you unless you can prove that you were the first to design it. If Nintendo didn't have the patent and Sony essentially stole it, we would have heard that there is a lawsuit being filed by Nintendo against Sony over who truly has rights to the patent.

This is my understanding of the system, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.


RE: Patent Law
By Ard on 12/16/2006 6:05:25 PM , Rating: 2
Holding a patent is essentially evidence that says you created/invented something first. It can be rebutted if someone can show that prior art existed before you filed your patent...but other than that, if you have a valid patent in the US (meaning the PTO has gone through all your work, assured that all reqs are met, and made sure your patent doesn't conflict or infringe other patents on file), you're considered to be the first and only inventor of that method. And if Nintendo didn't hold a patent (I can't see them not having one but I'll check the PTO in a sec), they would be completely defenseless against Sony or anyone else who might want to steal the Wiimote design.


RE: Patent Law
By Ard on 12/16/2006 6:38:18 PM , Rating: 2
Interesting, couldn't find a patent that described the Wiimote in the PTO's database. In all likelihood, Nintendo only filed in Japan, which is fine since the Paris Convention provides for the right of priority (if a patent is filed in a normal manner and is valid, the inventor gets priority over filing that patent in other member countries).


RE: Patent Law
By peternelson on 12/17/2006 10:41:19 AM , Rating: 2
~There's no rule that says you have to patent something.

Part of the idea of a patent is DISCLOSURE. You have to reveal how your idea works, or an embodiment of it.

Many companies prefer NOT to patent something because it prevents competitors getting the "how it works" for free reading.

There are other means of protection for intellectual property such as being secretive (encasing the circuit in resin), a "registered design" eg for the shape of the controller etc.

A patent can be valuable, but less so if you don't intend to license the tech, and if there are already similar things patented in which case it is harder for you to differentiate and sucessfully patent your particular idea as enforcible in court.


RE: Patent Law
By Ard on 12/17/2006 5:07:14 PM , Rating: 2
No, you don't have to, but if you plan on protecting your work from infringement, you damn well better. Trade secrets and the like don't have any remedy for copying/reverse engineering, only for stolen works. While you point out that part of the idea of a patent is disclosure, the other part is a virtual monopoly that comes along with that disclosure. It doesn't matter if you're giving your competitors the 'how it works' information because if they use it, they're screwed.


RE: Patent Law
By patentman on 12/17/2006 6:15:41 PM , Rating: 2
virtual monopoly = statutory 20 year monopoly from the date of filing. Patentee can prevent others (except the federal government) from making, using, selling, offering for sale, importing or exporting infringing articles.

20 years is usually plenty of time for companies to recoup their investment and profit on their product. The major companies that hate the time limit are pharmaceutical cos., who are making literally millions a day off of their products.


RE: Patent Law
By patentman on 12/17/2006 6:17:36 PM , Rating: 2
I generally agree with you ard, particularly when it comes to mechnical devices that can be taken apart, such as videogame controllers.

However, in areas of technology that are less predictable and not subject to easy reverse engineering, i.e., chemical formulations, trade secret protection is often highly effective. I.e., the Coke formulation has been protected as a trade secret for over a hundred years now.


RE: Patent Law
By patentman on 12/17/2006 6:13:17 PM , Rating: 2
Nice to see there is someone else on this forum who knows something about patent law ard.

Just to clarify, under the paris convention, an applicant can file an international application in the PCT Office, and then has up to 30 months to nationalilze it in member countries.



RE: Patent Law
By patentman on 12/17/2006 5:56:29 PM , Rating: 2
"is that actually holding the patent doesn't protect you unless you can prove that you were the first to design it."

Not really, in patent infringement cases, the patent is presumed valid. The Defendant bears the burden of proving that it is invaliud, was procured by fraud, etc...


RE: Patent Law
By patentman on 12/17/2006 5:55:00 PM , Rating: 2
Not necessarily Ard. Even if Nintendo failed to file a patent application covering their controller (which I'm sure they did not), they can petition for an interference, or, w if/when this sony application issues, they can file an ex parte re-exam and try and have the patent invalidated.


Knowing sony
By Acanthus on 12/16/2006 9:47:03 AM , Rating: 3
It will be hailed as the greatest technology ever, developed solely by them.

It will be late, not work as well as the wii controller, have a defective sensor which will initiate a massive recall, be proprietary in some way so they cant be used by anything but the more expensive version of the console, and 3rd party controllers based on their specs will explode and kill people. However sony will claim theirs are fine until one explodes and kills someone.

Let me make sure ive got all of sonys recent mishaps for this year:

-Steal technology and claim you invented it
-Make everything proprietary
-Grossly exaggerate performance to the levels of false advertising
-Defective CCDs
-Defective batteries
-Sony claiming every one elses laptop designs are at fault, and the sony batteries in their laptops are fine.




RE: Knowing sony
By Drexial on 12/16/2006 10:25:26 AM , Rating: 3
it was MS that wont let anyone develop wireless controllers for the 360. sony just uses bluetooth, so its a generic standard for the wireless devices. i applaud them for that move.


RE: Knowing sony
By Goty on 12/16/06, Rating: -1
RE: Knowing sony
By BladeVenom on 12/16/2006 12:54:49 PM , Rating: 2
Industrial espionage, or there were press leaks about the Wii controller before it came out. I'm sure lots of people knew about it before it was officially unveiled, but were under nondisclosure agreements.


RE: Knowing sony
By Le Québécois on 12/16/2006 1:05:03 PM , Rating: 3
Because the Wiimote was unveiled a good 7 months before E3 2006.

Here's a quote from someone who just made a reply to another person like you in this same news.

quote:
By jugbander on 12/16/2006 12:12:24 PM , Rating: 4
Sony applied for their patent on May 8, 2006. Nintendo displayed a prototype in September 2005. Here's a link: http://www.gamespot.com/news/6133389.html


RE: Knowing sony
By MDme on 12/16/2006 9:48:15 PM , Rating: 2
dont bash sony
By Alpha Furion on 12/16/2006 11:29:34 AM , Rating: 3
i am not a fan boy but nintendo were not the first ones to bring motion sensing out so its not new. just cause sony decide to patent a controller based on the same type of tech does not make them thieves of the technology if that were so then nintendo are also. look at sony's eye toy which detects motion trought a camera that was out before the wii remote so then one could say nintendo stole the idea from sony an inhanced it. the world of thechnology is all about inovation but also abot making current tech that one company has better by implementing it in a more cost effective/performance or usable way. if sony do bring out the controller it could be much better than the wii's or it might not wait and see dont bash them for something thats not there. one last thing sony may have gone down a bad road with blue-ray in the ps3 but over all it is a fine machine that so far is reliable, has an internal power supply and is quiter than the xbox 360 while packing a lot of tech.




RE: dont bash sony
By spwrozek on 12/16/2006 11:48:58 AM , Rating: 2
What about the Zapper Light Gun for duck hunt??


RE: dont bash sony
By Zelvek on 12/16/2006 12:57:49 PM , Rating: 2
Ralph Baer's brown box had a light gun befor that.


RE: dont bash sony
By BladeVenom on 12/16/2006 12:59:28 PM , Rating: 2
The first motion sensing controller I ever used was the Le Stick for the Atari 2600. Same idea, but different technology to do it. It used mercury switches to sense motion.


Get it right or don't post it all
By patentman on 12/17/2006 3:29:13 PM , Rating: 5
First: Sony has not "patented" this device. They have filed a patent application and that application has published as a pre-grant publication. It is not a patent yet. Indeed, THIS APPLICATION HAS NOT EVEN BEEN EXAMINED YET. The title of this article is absolutely, positively 100% wrong and misleading.

Second: The claims of the application are drawn towards a controller with a photonotically detectable element in the body. AFAIK, the nintendo wii controller functions through the use of optical elements and accelerometers, and I am 100% certain it is covered by a patent somewhere. Moreover, I am 100% certain that any examiner at the PTO who is examining game controllers will be well aware of the fact that the wii controller utilizes this technology.

Third: The fact that Sony filed this application 1 day before Nintendo publicly displayed their controller likely means nothing. the only time public display of a technology comes into play is when the technology is when it is displayed PRIOR TO the filing of a patent application. When this happens, it is possible for the PTO to statutorily bar an applicant from obtaining a patent on the pre-disclosed technology, depending on the amount of time that passed between the public display/publication/use and the filing of the application.

Fourth: Marcus, I appreciate the fact that you post patent stuff on DT, but seriously man, if you don;t know what you are talking about, at least try to run your article by someone who does. This is the second or third time that your patent articles have conveyed completely inaccurate information. At the very least, read the faq at http://www.uspto.gov/web/offices/pac/doc/general/i... or drop me an email. I'd be happy to discuss patent law with you at any time. Given the responses to these types of articles on your website, I am afraid that you are furthering the general misunderstanding that users of this site have with respect to patent law.

For those who are interested, if you want to follow the prosecution of this application through the PTO, see:

http://portal.uspto.gov/external/portal/!ut/p/_s.7...





By patentman on 12/17/2006 3:32:16 PM , Rating: 2
Sigh, the forum won' let me post the erntire link to the electronic file wrapper of this application.

To get to it, go to the link in my ost above and type in the application number: 11/382,251 into the appropriate field.


how about the straps
By phatboye on 12/16/2006 8:40:28 AM , Rating: 2
I wonder how strong those Sony straps will be.

JK :o




RE: how about the straps
By INeedCache on 12/16/2006 1:01:17 PM , Rating: 4
I'm sure they'll be very strong. Only some of them will probably explode.


lol
By Borkil on 12/16/2006 2:32:50 PM , Rating: 4
lol the pic of figure 1A looks like some kid drew it in 5 mins




thats a patent publication
By EngenZerO on 12/16/2006 11:22:13 PM , Rating: 2
Thats not an actual patent. It's a patent publication. There is a difference between the two.

An actual patent protects you. A publication is patent application that published for public view... it is still in the process of becoimg a patent.




RE: thats a patent publication
By patentman on 12/17/2006 3:39:44 PM , Rating: 2
Halalleujah! Someone else noticed!


Patented Wiimote
By achintya on 12/16/2006 12:18:12 PM , Rating: 2
I guess that Nintendo would have patented the designs of their controller much before they put up a working model for public display and use. Sony may have seen them patenting such a controller and anticipated that this style of gaming would be much more intuitive and therefore patented a similar design, but one based somewhat on their EyeToy. They also ripped the designs off and implemented the motion sensing onto the new PS3 controllers.




Straight rip-off yes.... BUT!
By Anonimous on 12/16/2006 2:47:03 PM , Rating: 2
...not of Nintendo. This "invention" is a straight rip-off of Naturalpoints head tracker. They only put it on a hand controller. How on earth could they get a patent for this?

www.naturalpoint.com




I Hate Sony
By UppityMatt on 12/16/2006 3:06:13 PM , Rating: 1
I hate Sony. That is all




RE: I Hate Sony
By mm2587 on 12/16/2006 10:37:11 PM , Rating: 1
I'm not sure if this was a joke or not, but a part of me dies inside when comments like this get modded up


I can see this one coming...
By Didou on 12/17/2006 9:57:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
True motion sensing will not start until we say it starts




both sailors
By evanhaut on 12/17/2006 1:54:30 PM , Rating: 2
Both Nintendo and Sony are sailing in the same billions of euros generating tank of computer generated joy seekers. Discussions like the above ones are much common and never clear cut. To that respect I would like to point out that the idea behind the entire 'fun in front of the television experience' is more likely to be Sony's with their invention of the Eye Toy.




one more error
By patentman on 12/17/2006 3:39:18 PM , Rating: 2
"Sony filed a similar patent in Japan...."

One of these days I will get it into everyone's head that nobody files a "patent." You file a patent APPLICATION, and it MATURES into a patent if certain requirements are met. This is true in at least Japan and the U.S., although the examination process in each of these countries is substantially different.




wow
By Samus on 12/18/2006 6:11:53 AM , Rating: 2
i can't believe this wasn't patented by nintendo, but when you think about it, this is quite interesting.

basically, if Wii had a motion tracking controller, it could tell when you were walking up to throw the bowling ball instead of just throwing the bowling ball, or you could walk up to the putt, etc in wii golf.




Mass Silliness and aggravation
By rcc on 12/18/2006 6:01:13 PM , Rating: 2
The patent office needs to not allow patents on general ideas. Yes, I realize this one isn't really in contention yet.

But patenting motion sensing/detection as an idea is a bad idea, or rather allowing someone to do so is a bad idea. If you have some specific trick or process that makes yours work better, fine, patent that element.

I see a lot of discussions on patents floating through, and on most of them I just shake my head and sigh. It's a load of crap.

Perhaps the patent office should contract some tech savvy people to help them decide what is appropriate and what isn't.

IMNSHO, of course.




Moderated
By Pillow on 12/16/06, Rating: -1
I have an idea!
By tacorly on 12/16/06, Rating: -1
RE: I have an idea!
By Goty on 12/16/2006 3:00:35 PM , Rating: 3
So who's the bigger moron? The morons who sit on DT all day and flame companies or the moron who logs on just to flame the aforementioned morons?


RE: I have an idea!
By Gatt on 12/16/2006 3:38:29 PM , Rating: 2
You um, may want to realize at some point here that there's nothing innovative or new with either Wii or Sony's controllers.

MS had a motion sensing controller on the market under the Sidewinder brand 5 years ago. The various "Virtual Reality" companies had motion sensing controllers 10 years ago.

All Nintendo did was get the price down and support it with software themselves, unlike MS who expected everyone else to support it.


RE: I have an idea!
By Xavian on 12/16/2006 4:43:31 PM , Rating: 3
Not true, what they did was split the controller into two pieces, this is the revolutionary part of the new control. Microsoft, Logitech and such before them took an existing controller and added the motion sensing tech onto it(much like Sony has done with the sixaxis).

Nintendo designed the controllers 'around' the motion sensing tech, with the motion sensing tech in mind. Motion sensing in itself is not revolutionary, splitting the controller into two and supporting it out of the box all combined together into something revolutionary for the console world.

Companies knew motion sensing, but NONE (including Sony and Microsoft) had any idea of how to integrate it into a controller in a way that would be successful. Nintendo found a way and its that simple.


RE: I have an idea!
By knowyourenemy on 12/17/2006 10:26:46 AM , Rating: 2
Flaming? I think "legitimate discussion" are the words you are looking for. I think you're just a sad panda, personally.

Back on topic: Does anyone know the date of the Nintendo Wiimote and functionality? I'm only asking because the article is a little unclear, perhaps because they mentioned the Wiimote being demonstrated one day later (it threw me off, I don't know why). Any ideas there?


RE: I have an idea!
By STILTO on 12/17/06, Rating: -1
"You can bet that Sony built a long-term business plan about being successful in Japan and that business plan is crumbling." -- Peter Moore, 24 hours before his Microsoft resignation











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