backtop


Print 45 comment(s) - last by biohazard42042.. on Mar 5 at 7:11 PM


Sony's PlayStation 3 SIXAXIS controller
Rumble could be headed to the PS3

It looks as though the "rumble" might be coming back to Sony's PlayStation if today's announcement is any indication. Sony and Immersion have agreed to end their patent litigation and enter a new business agreement which would allow the use of Immersion technology in PlayStation products.

The feud between the two companies dates back to 2005 when Sony was hit with a $91 million USD lawsuit regarding its use of force feedback technology in PlayStation game consoles. As a result, Sony decided to drop "rumble" support from its PS3 and instead decided to focus on its SIXAXIS motion-sensing controller.

Sony originally downplayed the lack of rumble and tried to make the best of the new motion-sensing capabilities of the SIXAXIS back in October. When asked if he had any regrets over the loss of rumble, Sony's Phil Harrison stated "Not at all. I think that the next generation interfaces that can be created built on SIXAXIS motion sensitivity give tremendous gameplay benefits that far outweigh a reactive vibration function."

“I think the decision that we’ve made to build in the SIXAXIS functionality, and Bluetooth wireless, and great battery life, and all the other functionality that comes with it, far outweighs the chatter that we’re getting on vibration. And, it's incredibly light! Just pick it up," he continued.

Not surprisingly, many fans have been disappointed with the lack of rumble on the PS3. Developers have expressed similar disappointment with the lack of rumble and its SIXAXIS replacement.

"Tilt control's not difficult to do... Fundamentally, though, the whole tilt control thing is rubbish. It's no compensation for [the lack of] rumble," said Guy Wilday of Sega Racing Studio.

"I think that its value depends upon the game. It didn't make sense on Oblivion but I'm sure there are some games it does make sense on. To be honest I would rather have the rumble instead of the SIXAXIS motion stuff," said Pete Hines of Bethesda Software.

This latest announcement means that rumble could be coming to the PS3 in the future, but no timetable was given. "Our new business agreement with Sony Computer Entertainment is specifically intended to enable advanced vibration capability for the benefit of the PlayStation gaming community," said Immersion CEO Victor Vegas. "We are happy to provide our technology in this regard and hope to make technical proposals very soon with respect to use of our technology in the PlayStation products."

"We look forward to exploring with Immersion exciting new ways to bring the largest and best range of gameplay experiences to our customers," said Kazuo Hirai, Sony President and Group Chief Operating Officer. "We are very excited about our new partnership with Immersion and the potential for new and innovative products incorporating their technologies."

So while PS3 is destined for the European market (and likely future revisions of the PS3 headed to North America) will lack a dedicated Emotion Engine and Graphics Synthesizer chip, one can always look forward to the possible return of rumble.



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

pathetic
By scrapsma54 on 3/1/2007 7:07:14 PM , Rating: 4
Anything that sony does now to fix its console is a wasted effort. Why didn't sony just put off the console one more year? Its probably costing sony more by attempting to sell their console than just holding off the date.




RE: pathetic
By secretanchitman on 3/1/2007 7:13:01 PM , Rating: 2
i hope rumble comes back to the ps3!!!


RE: pathetic
By Arribajuan on 3/1/2007 7:39:02 PM , Rating: 2
This will mean a new PS3 version 2 of some sort and that version 1 versions of the hardware (maybe just the controllers) will not be supported so it looks difficult.

And Sony should start just now the development efforts to include the rumble and publishers will see the same problem.


RE: pathetic
By cheetah2k on 3/1/2007 8:14:23 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
This will mean a new PS3 version 2


Not likely. New controllers perhaps, and a revised bios for the PS3. Rumble is activated thru software to the controller - its not PS3 HW

Expect to see new version 2 BT "rumble" controllers on the shelves in a few months


RE: pathetic
By vitul on 3/1/2007 8:14:43 PM , Rating: 2
but yet its ok that the 360 is coming out with an hdmi version of the 360? things happen consoles develop as they go along. the ps2 out now is not the same ps2 that came out at launch. i said it in another thread if you dont like sony products or the ps3 then stop reading the articles and leaving such hate.

obviously dailytech doesnt care for sony much because there is alot of xbox360 issues and problems that never get discussed on here. nothing is perfect the wii, 360 or ps3 the hate you have for one system can easily be translated into another if you read enough articles.


RE: pathetic
By Arribajuan on 3/2/2007 11:55:31 AM , Rating: 2
"and leaving such hate" & "the hate you have"

You are the one that brought the hate here or for some reason you do not like people arguing that this move will be expensive and out of time because of a lawsuit.

<hate>

Even though hardware needs no change and can be handled by firmware. They need to do something and say "Here we have our new PS3 with RUMBLE!!!" All new for 2007.

They need marketing, money and start getting developers to handle rumble from now on.

They might have something already developed before hand or utilize the same model as in teh ps2, but as other poster said, given the record, it is not likely.

</hate>


RE: pathetic
By Farfignewton on 3/1/2007 8:19:05 PM , Rating: 2
As I recall, the original dual-shock did not require replacing my playstation, so I doubt this will require Sony to poke around in the guts of the PS3. Likely it will be packaged with new PS3's at some point and previous purchasers will probably have to pick one up seperately.

As far as development of the new controller goes, I wouldn't be surprised if it has been worked out beforehand for just such a contingency. But given their track record lately it's more likely the hardware guys had NO idea this was coming.


RE: pathetic
By jtyson on 3/2/2007 10:29:45 PM , Rating: 2
I agree. There's nothing more pathetic than a company attempting to correct its mistakes for the benefit of the customer. That's just unconscionable. Absolutely flabbergasting.


RE: pathetic
By FITCamaro on 3/1/2007 9:08:36 PM , Rating: 4
The problem with it coming back is that it shows that the only reason they didn't have it to begin with is because of the lawsuit which they've constantly denied.


RE: pathetic
By killerroach on 3/1/2007 7:41:31 PM , Rating: 4
Hold off the console another year? You've gotta be joking. By being a year behind the 360, Sony is having an uphill battle keeping developers on their side as it is, as there happens to be a legitimate contender in their space with a larger install base (a far different case from the Dreamcast versus the PS2, where the latter overwhelmed the former in short order). Letting the 360 be the only HD game in town for an extra year could have been summed up in one word... suicide (unless the delay also allowed them to drop the price, in which case the bad press machine may have been thwarted before it even got going, let alone to its present "snowballing" nature).


RE: pathetic
By cheetah2k on 3/1/2007 8:16:35 PM , Rating: 3
Agreed. While the PS2 is still selling strong, the PS3 had to be released.

This change has nothing to do with PS3 console HW anyways. It's merely a bios update and revised controller HW.


RE: pathetic
By doctor sam adams on 3/2/2007 12:09:11 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
While the PS2 is still selling strong


Please. People would have waited for the PS3, if it was worth waiting for. Do you think the geniuses at Sony know what to do with the Cell? If they spent a year figuring it out and then launching it, instead of launching then figuring out, it would have been a much better product and not smeared its brand name harder than The Matrix Revolutions.


RE: pathetic
By crazedmodder on 3/2/2007 4:00:48 PM , Rating: 2
Um no, that's not the way it works. He's right, it would have been suicide. How would people know whether or not the PS3 would be worth waiting for? You wouldn't know the all the facts until the console is released, do you really think people would have waited 2 years for something that they could only see at gaming/technology conventions? I know a lot of people who wanted to wait for the PS3 but decided to get an XBox360 because Sony was taking to long. Do you really think people would have waited double the amount of time? While it would have been nice if things were released without problems that's just not going to happen when manufacturers can update their products. Just look at all the PC software we constantly need updates for! I don't see it as a bad thing anymore anyways, I used to but I realize now that, for example, COMPANY could release the PRODUCT today in an unfinished state and release firmware/software updates for the next year to fix problems OR they could release it in a year with their fixes implemented already. By releasing the PRODUCT today, they can find much more bugs than they would be able to testing themselves for the next year, some of which will still be remaining if they kept the PRODUCT for an extra year which will cause people to complain that it's unfinished anyways because the COMPANY couldn't find those bugs. Plus we get the PRODUCT a year earlier AND prices can go down due to mass production. So where is the loss? If you're an early adopter that is your problem, it is already known that you will face problems by buying any product close to it's initial release. Chances are you guys wouldn't even buy a PS3 so why are you complaining like these problems are hurting you or as if you wouldn't buy the console because of these things?

And besides, the PS3 launched without too many problems besides the 720p thing. I don't really see this rumble thing as a problem, they're just adding a feature as companies (MS included) tend to do when they can update their products.

On a note more related to the article, am I the only one who DOESN'T want to have rumble? Hopefully they continue selling the rumbleless controllers, IMO it's not that important of a feature and I like the featherweight of the controller.


RE: pathetic
By doctor sam adams on 3/4/2007 3:09:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Um no, that's not the way it works. He's right, it would have been suicide. How would people know whether or not the PS3 would be worth waiting for? You wouldn't know the all the facts until the console is released, do you really think people would have waited 2 years for something that they could only see at gaming/technology conventions?


Hell yes, if it looked like it was worth waiting for, and not a big overpriced beluga. Which group do you think is larger, the people who have rushed out and bought it already for $600 or those who are waiting for the price to drop? By the time that price drop occurs, Sony would have been ready to launch at that price anyway. Where am I seeing the PS3 right now, except in magazines and online? Am I happy about what I am hearing? Not really, except for the fact that PS3 can eventually become a finished product. PS3 is upgradeable, and like the PS2 may become popular after a while, but I doubt that this series is headed for a fourth feature either.


RE: pathetic
By goku on 3/2/2007 9:12:06 PM , Rating: 2
Well had they waited another year, hopefully they would have had a better graphics processor than the X360, it'd have all the parts it SHOULD HAVE HAD and the blu-ray drive wouldn't cost nearly as much as it does now so the console could potentially be cheaper.


RE: pathetic
By Korr on 3/2/2007 12:02:24 AM , Rating: 3
Care to explain why Sony should have put it off for one more year? Sony was already behind the 360 by a year and waiting another year would have been disastrous for them. You are also forgetting the fact that Sony is fighting in two battlefronts with the PS3; the console war and the next-gen DVD war. If Sony didn't release the PS3 this year, HD-DVD would have ran away as the victors by now.


RE: pathetic
By bargetee5 on 3/4/2007 1:28:01 AM , Rating: 2
I think the wii was the bigger threat, as such I don't think a
2 month delay wouldn't hurt would you? But 1 year is a bit overkill and a reason not to wait.


RE: pathetic
By encryptkeeper on 3/2/2007 12:49:49 PM , Rating: 2
Because they are scared of the 360, they decided to put the console out essentially a year early. You're right, consumers would have been happier with a slightly delayed PS3 with better titles and lower costs. But by then Sony would have been SO far behind it wouldn't be funny. The Wii scared the CRAP out of them at E3 (notice they didn't start REALLY bullshitting until after that) and they knew they were in trouble. That's why they keep saying things like "Find a PS3 that sits on the shelf for more than a few minutes and I'll give you such and such dollars for it." Their ONLY hope now is to create a false sense of shortage in the market for PS3s so uninformed people will buy them. But it won't work. There is too much negativity surrounding it. First impressions you know. The analysts kept (I say kept because you are seeing fewer and fewer of these reports) saying the PS3 would come out on top, that it would take a few years, but I'm telling you, the negative atmosphere surrounding it is just too much, ESPECIALLY compared to the positive atmosphere surrounding the 360 and Wii. Those are the deathblows for the PS3.


RE: pathetic
By scrapsma54 on 3/2/2007 4:51:31 PM , Rating: 2
I think the main reason sony is getting so much negativity is also because Nintendo and Microsoft (quickly caught) on to were the ps2's success was at and were prepared to really throw everything into their consoles. What strikes me as odd is why didn't sony revise their console and do something different in order to throw the other companies off. now it seems like Microsoft and nintendo did the throwing off this time around.


RE: pathetic
By encryptkeeper on 3/2/2007 5:21:42 PM , Rating: 2
Good point as well. We're starting to see that it's a cycle, just like all other businesses. Once a company gets ahead, they get complacent (Nintendo w/ the N64, Sony w/ the PS3).


RE: pathetic
By walk2k on 3/5/2007 4:01:58 PM , Rating: 1
What's pathetic is every positive story about Sony/Playstation turning into another fanboy yank-fest.

"OLLO NO RUMBLE SONY SUX!!!!11oenoen"

"LLOOLL RUMBLE IS BACK SONY SUX!!!111eleven"

Seriously if you don't want one, don't buy one, but get over yourself nobody wants to hear your pathetic whining.

Personally I won't trade my controllers for ones with "rumble", I think it's stupid, I would probably turn it off anyway to save battery life. I prefer the light weight and long battery life instead.

BUT the really good story in all this is that Sony's 1st-party driving games like GRAN TURISMO 5 will have full force-feedback. That is terrific news.


Too late
By Teckan on 3/1/2007 9:21:54 PM , Rating: 5
If the functionality isn't in the bundled hardware, I can't see widespread support for the rumble feature, even if they do come out with third party controllers later that support it. Since Sony is in cost cutting mode, I can't see them increasing the cost of their controller by adding the necessary parts to support rumble.

Really everyone lost here. Gamers don't get the feature, Immersion thought Sony couldn't live without the rumble feature, tried to shake them down, and Sony balked and released their new console without it to no huge outcry. Sony has shipped 100 million PS2, even if PS3 sells half that, Immersion will have lost millions, they really made a huge error by trying to fight a corporate giant like Sony.

Personally, I think rumble is nice if it's used right. But it's something I can definitely live without. I disagree with some of the commentators in the article, I believe the motion detection features will have a much bigger impact on the future of video gaming than rumble has had or will.




RE: Too late
By Omega215D on 3/2/2007 1:34:01 AM , Rating: 2
I remember having the PS1 which was the fourth revision or something and it was long before the PS One. This system did not come with controllers with rumble feature but when Gran Turismo came out I also picked the Dual Shock. Games after that had been adding support for the Dual Shock so I see no reason it won't be widespread for the PS3.


RE: Too late
By someguy123 on 3/2/2007 2:14:08 AM , Rating: 2
teckan,

the reason those devs are somewhat "downplaying" the playstation sixaxis is because its not completely motion sensing....it just has a tilt feature. the tilt feature is really awkward as motion isn't generated by movement, just by the angle at which the controller is tilted, which can't really be used for much other than flight/skateboard balancing (that i can think of off the top of my head).


RE: Too late
By Torched on 3/2/2007 10:48:32 AM , Rating: 2
Not motion sensing, only tilt?
I'd like to see an article on that because as far as I'm concerned 6 axes is the full range of motion. This is 3 axes: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:3D_Cartesian_co...
a 3D object can accelerate linearly in any combination of these directions. Imagine the 3D object also rotating around each axis, this is the full range of motion.


RE: Too late
By tjamest on 3/2/2007 3:19:40 PM , Rating: 2
You are confusing attitude or orientation with motion. The SixAxis can determine it's orientation, but it cannot sense motion or determine the controller's absolute or relative position in space. The Wii's controller can sense motion by checking for changes in the spatial positioning of the remote. I believe this was someguy123's point.


RE: Too late
By someguy123 on 3/2/2007 3:54:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You are confusing attitude or orientation with motion. The SixAxis can determine it's orientation, but it cannot sense motion or determine the controller's absolute or relative position in space. The Wii's controller can sense motion by checking for changes in the spatial positioning of the remote. I believe this was someguy123's point.


exactly. the sixaxis is a form of motion sensing, but it does so in a way limited to direction of tilt and not really the complete motion of the controller (i.e. moving the controller foward on a flat plane does nothing, but tilting it on it's left side will cause constant movement to the left).

i think the sixaxis is just old tilt technology redesigned for multiple axes. it's a step in the right direction, but it really isn't very useful in many cases, and very annoying in others. they could have honestly gone with nothing in the controller imo, and the system would have still done fine.


RE: Too late
By walk2k on 3/5/2007 3:54:41 PM , Rating: 2
Wrong, it can sense motion forward/back. In the MLB 2k7 baseball game you "push" the controller forward to swing the bat. The faster you push the harder the swing is. If you tilt it up while swinging you produce a fly-ball and if you tilt it down it's a grounder. Left/right aims the hit left or right also. It's full 6-deg of motion sensing.


RE: Too late
By experiment626 on 3/4/2007 1:46:16 AM , Rating: 2
Wii actually only uses the spatial sensing with the sensor bar for targeting objects on screen (when using the menu, the cursor is the best example). However, Wii Remotes also use accelerometers (or a similar technology) to detect movement of the controller for certain actions (e.g. in Legend of Zelda, swinging the sword requires you to swing the controller from side to side). The controller can also detect the difference between up and down (if you flip the controller upside down on the Wii menu, it will rotate the cursor). Even the Nunchuk features accelerometer features (in Legend of Zelda you thrust the nunchuk forward to perform a shield attack, or when you're fishing you turn it sideways and hold it like a reel to reel in a fish).

Wii has a vastly superior implementation of motion sensing just with it's wider variety of options for developers to take advantage of. Add to the fact it keeps vibration (which is a necessary feature for realism in games). You can argue that it is old, however it is very dependant on the developer and how they make use of it that determines how useful it really is. In Final Fantasy 12 for PS2, it was annoying. In Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess it is useful and not over the top at all.

I have yet to try a PS3 out, but if Six Axis is only dependant on tilt and its target audience is mature gamers, I don't think it will fly.


RE: Too late
By encryptkeeper on 3/2/2007 12:56:19 PM , Rating: 2
I'd agree with you that most games you can live without it. But remember some of the features that you get with rumble, without it it'd be very different playing metal gear solid. First person shooters would really suffer too. You can't just take away something people genuinely enjoy about games and expect them to be just fine with it.


RE: Too late
By walk2k on 3/5/2007 6:39:52 PM , Rating: 2
It's not too late for the millions of Driving wheel owners and racing games that won't be out for a while now like GRAN TURISMO 5, etc...

I'm not going to rush out and buy new controllers, but I do have a Logitech Driving Force and am fond of GT, so this is GREAT news.


I can see it now
By someguy123 on 3/1/2007 8:19:57 PM , Rating: 4
"Oh we've always wanted the rumble. Now that it's legally available to us, we're adding it on just like the fanbase wanted!" -some pompous jerk

then constant news posts/rantings from people reposting sony's "rumble was last gen" comments.




RE: I can see it now
By Alpha4 on 3/2/2007 6:22:28 AM , Rating: 1
Hahaha. You called it.

In any case I am extremely, extremely, extremely (x10^6) confused as to why 'vibration' is getting so much attention. It genuinely is two generations old. I'm all for adding additional input mediums in exchange for remedial forms of sensational output. Some people just lack the foresight to see what motion sensing can do on a conventional gamepad.


RE: I can see it now
By aos007 on 3/2/2007 12:20:09 PM , Rating: 2
And I agree with you. Rumble is a totally unremarkable feature that often annoys more than it helps. I couldn't care less that it's not included in PS3, and since many wireless controllers in previous generation didn't have it, I am already accustomed to it not being there.


RE: I can see it now
By frobizzle on 3/4/2007 8:45:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
When asked if he had any regrets over the loss of rumble, Sony's Phil Harrison stated "Not at all.


Six months from now, the same person will tout rumble as something every PS3 owner must have!!! "Oh, and BTW, the new and improved Rumble PS3 is only $49 more than the previous one!"


By encryptkeeper on 3/2/2007 12:41:17 PM , Rating: 2
Ahead of the PS3 launch, Sony said that a vibration feature would interfere with the motion sensing capability of the new controller.
-Source: Toms Hardware

Funny, Nintendo was able to both rumble and motion sensing in their controller with no problems. Sony doesn't know which head they're shoving up which ass these days.




By someguy123 on 3/2/2007 3:58:04 PM , Rating: 2
well, it COULD be true in sony's case, because the sixaxis is a tilt mechanism inside of the controller, while the wii's controller uses a bar that scans for changes in location of the controller.


By JimFear on 3/3/2007 12:53:30 PM , Rating: 2
The Wii uses the sensor bar external to the controller, the Sixaxis has built in sensors


By irev210 on 3/1/2007 11:03:22 PM , Rating: 2
I happen to be very fond of rumble, since the types of games I play (racing and FPS) make excellent use of rumble. When someone hits you from behind, you feel the rumble. When you hit a wall racing, or are on the bump-strips racing, you feel the rumble.

Anyway, Sony... if you are out there and can listen -- I will buy your system the second you say you add rumble, I dont really care for sixaxxis or whatever.

I like the bluray, HDMI, built-in wifi and upgradable hard drive, and what appears to be supierior build quality to the XBOX360.

You should also offer the Made-in-Japan PS3's as a special edition for a slight price premium for US market. I would gladly pay the price premium for what I feel to be higher quality unit. For some reason, I have a big hunch that defect rates for units made in China are higher than units made in Japan.

Anyway, please listen Sony. PLEASE!




By JimFear on 3/5/2007 9:38:21 AM , Rating: 2
Just remember dude, dualshock didn't come with the original PS1, they can bring it out as a new controller and the devs can patch the games via the PlayStation Network. Its very possible that we will see a rumbling 6 axis as many peropheral companies have said a rumbling tilt controller is possible, hell even the original wireless/tilt Microsoft PC controller rumbled.


My point is...
By vze4z7nx on 3/3/2007 11:45:36 PM , Rating: 2
Alright, so heres the deal. I want to either get the Xbox 360 or the PS3 by the summer. I got the money for either one, so money is not that much of a problem for me.

I really like the Blu-Ray support, integrated wi-fi, and shiny metal case that comes with the PS3. But the problem is the number of games on the market right now and the online play.

So I don't know what I should get. Right now, I think I'm going to wait till like early June and see what happens in the next 3-4 months. If things improve for the PS3 and if more games come out, and most importantly if RUMBLE comes back, I will get a PS3. If nothing good happens to the PS3, then I guess I'll have to buy that soon to be antique.




RE: My point is...
By JimFear on 3/5/2007 7:10:38 AM , Rating: 2
Well when the PS3 launches in Europe in 18 days there will be a nother 30 odd games being released, by summer there should be a nice ammount to choose from. I like my 360 but no recent games have tickled my fancy and I'm a bit bored with it to be perfectly honest, the majority of current 360 games seem to be rehashed sequels or sports games featuring shinier players.


My point is...
By vze4z7nx on 3/3/2007 11:47:22 PM , Rating: 2
Alright, so heres the deal. I want to either get the Xbox 360 or the PS3 by the summer. I got the money for either one, so money is not that much of a problem for me.

I really like the Blu-Ray support, integrated wi-fi, and shiny metal case that comes with the PS3. But the problem is the number of games on the market right now and the online play.

So I don't know what I should get. Right now, I think I'm going to wait till like early June and see what happens in the next 3-4 months. If things improve for the PS3 and if more games come out, and most importantly if RUMBLE comes back, I will get a PS3. If nothing good happens to the PS3, then I guess I'll have to buy that soon to be antique.




RE: My point is...
By walk2k on 3/5/2007 3:56:27 PM , Rating: 2
More games will come out of course. The system has only been out a couple of months. The online play works perfectly as far as my experience (40 player Resistance, and some of the demos) so don't wait for that, it's here now.

The case is plastic, though :)


By biohazard420420 on 3/5/2007 7:11:17 PM , Rating: 2
Ok I for one never really was all that fond of the rumble on the dual shock controller. It is not that I disliked the feature its just that rumble was such a minor addition to any game your playing. Ok now I can understand it for say a racing game where it would rumble when you get off the pavement, but in general I never thought it was that big a deal to have in a game. But it seems there were allot of fans out there mad there was no rumble so here you go guys. Also I don't believe this has been brought up in another post but what do you think rumble will do to battery life on the controller. I know that it is going to cost some battery life to move that little weight in the controller back and forth to make the rumble but how much is yet to been seen.

One other thing in regards to people dissing the PS3 first let me state I have not bought a console since the N64. While I think the PS3 is off to a slow start partly because sony wants to keep supporting the ps2 by putting out games, I think it will in a little time finally come into its own as a console. Yes it is high priced mostly because of the blue ray drive but every new cycle with consoles people complain about how expensive they are compared to the previous gen. I have no problem with the PS3 and wouldn't mind getting one if I could afford it, I think it will begin to hold its own in a year or so just like the xbox did when it came out a year after the ps2 just give it time. But I do believe and I have read this in an article dealing with all 3 next gen consoles on another page that I can't remember but I believe that in the end the Wii will be the top dog or at least a very very strong second place trailing behind who, I am not sure, that answer will come once the PS3 begins to shine which it will.




"If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion." -- Scientology founder L. Ron. Hubbard














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki