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  (Source: gawkerassets.com)
Both companies are keeping an eye on console availability

Xbox One or PlayStation 4? That's the question many gamers are likely asking themselves as the holiday season approaches and both consoles fight for their affections.

However, availability seems to be a big issue with both consoles right now, and may be a determining factor in which one gamer's choose. Microsoft just announced that the Xbox One will only be available to 13 markets in November as opposed to the previously predicted 21 markets. As for the PS4, Sony is halting all pre-orders for the console.

According to an announcement by Microsoft, its lofty goal of reaching 21 markets in November 2013 proved to be too much. Instead, the Xbox One will launch in 13 markets, including Australia, Austria, Brazil, Canada, France, Germany, Ireland, Italy, Mexico, Spain, United Kingdom, United States and New Zealand.

The Xbox maker added that the remaining markets -- Belgium, Denmark, Finland, Netherlands, Norway, Russia, Sweden and Switzerland -- will receive the Xbox One "as soon as possible" in 2014. 

"While we wish we could launch Xbox One simultaneously in these markets, there are many factors that determine the timing of specific market launches," said Microsoft's Xbox Leadership Team. "This includes work to localize the Xbox One dash, incorporate additional voice and languages, and build partnerships to bring apps and meaningful local content to each country.

"We understand this will be disappointing news for our fans in the impacted countries, and we are doing everything we can to bring Xbox One to you as soon as possible next year."

The Xbox One will feature an APU with eight x86-64 cores; 8GB of DDR3 RAM; a GPU based on an AMD GCN architecture (it just got a GPU bump to 853MHz, up from the previous 800MHz); a 500 GB non-replaceable hard drive; three USB 3.0 ports; HDMI, and a Blu-ray optical drive. It'll sport a $499 price tag. 

For those who are leaning more toward the PS4 instead, it looks like Sony is stopping large retailers from taking any more pre-orders. The reason behind this is to ensure that there will be enough consoles available in-store for the upcoming holiday season. 

The PS4 is a $399 console featuring an 8-core 64-bit x86 Jaguar CPU built by AMD; a Radeon GPU comprised of 18 compute units (achieves 1.84 TFLOPS); a 6x Blu-ray drive; 8GB of GDDR5 of unified RAM; USB 3.0; Bluetooth 2.1; HDMI; optical out, and 802.11n Wi-Fi.

Source: The Telegraph





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not sure
By p05esto on 8/15/2013 10:21:23 AM , Rating: 4
I'll have to wait until they are released and the feedback comes in. I was anti-xbox until they made the changes with internet and used games, that would have sealed the deal for me. I bet Sony wishes MS kept their original plan... of course it would have tanked the Xbox big time.




RE: not sure
By GulWestfale on 8/15/2013 10:30:37 AM , Rating: 3
even *IF* the xbox one came without NSA surveillance, the fact is that it is $100 more expensive, and has significantly less graphics power and memory bandwidth.


RE: not sure
By Samus on 8/15/2013 10:51:08 AM , Rating: 1
I wouldn't call the XBOX 360 "significantly" slower. Most of the time, raw power in consoles is completely underutilized.

But $100 more is a hard bargain if you want purely a gaming device (something I think PS3 always excelled at over XBOX 360) but the XBOX has always had a better online experience. In my opinion, both make great media centers, and the next gen will be no different.


RE: not sure
By Flunk on 8/15/2013 11:16:10 AM , Rating: 5
He's referring to the PS4 having 50% more shaders and 4x the memory bandwidth of the Xbox One (which does have embedded SRAM that should help with the memory bandwidth).

Nothing to do with the 360.


RE: not sure
By Mitch101 on 8/15/2013 12:05:38 PM , Rating: 2
I want to respond about the specs which the article does mention were increased but then again why bother minds have been made up.

For whichever console you get enjoy or if you go PC enjoy.


RE: not sure
By cditty on 8/15/2013 5:44:29 PM , Rating: 2
Doesn't matter... Devs will code for the lowest denominator and port...

PS3 had better graphics. It was rarely used on multi platform games.


RE: not sure
By BZDTemp on 8/18/2013 11:33:41 AM , Rating: 2
Some devs will but there is lots of titles coming that is gonna exclusive for one or the other of those consoles so basically you're generalization is misleading.


RE: not sure
By someguy123 on 8/15/2013 8:14:10 PM , Rating: 1
The difference isn't quite as black and white as people assume. The reason why the industry has been using GDDR for graphics is because a GPU is highly parallel and another shader can continue its task even if one has stalled waiting for ram to allocate, so it can make use of its bandwidth for high bandwidth tasks like HDR/AA/framebuffer/alpha blending even though the average latency is higher than regular DDR. With 32mb of ESRAM you could conceivably fit it all at 1080p solely on the embedded ram.

Modern cpus have very fast local cache because they can call tasks a magnitude faster than DRAM can respond. When you unify your entire RAM pool you risk stalling the cpu and possibly the whole system as its waiting for API calls, which is why the 360 and wiiU have their own embedded ram and why the ps3 has separate pools. Sony clearly already had problems with this and has a dedicated system bus for the CPU, which has priority over GPU memory allocation. So really the cycle ends up being similar to last gen where sony had bigger performance numbers while microsoft has a more practical configuration development wise, though it isn't nearly as bad as the issue of the cell processor.


RE: not sure
By soccerballtux on 8/15/2013 11:11:19 PM , Rating: 2
PS4 more practical
one lump of high performance RAM, don't have to worry about mem hierarchies and utilizing the ESRAM effectively.


RE: not sure
By someguy123 on 8/16/2013 2:39:57 AM , Rating: 1
That's the exact opposite. PS4 will require a proper hierarchy (and already has it. dedicated 20gb band to the cpu) for the purposes of avoiding cpu stalls. The xbox can have any high bandwidth operations stored directly on the ESRAM with a hierarchy for the cpu/gpu depending on circumstance and available ESRAM cache. If you're lazy you can simply have the ESRAM be a dedicated buffer with nothing else in it.


RE: not sure
By SPOOFE on 8/16/13, Rating: 0
RE: not sure
By Wolfpup on 8/15/2013 12:47:31 PM , Rating: 3
Completely underutilized? What do you mean? Console developers scrape every last ounce of performance out of these things, they don't "underutilize" anything.

As someone else mentioned, Playstation 4 has 50% more GPU (and faster RAM) despite selling for $100 less.


RE: not sure
By Samus on 8/15/13, Rating: 0
RE: not sure
By Reclaimer77 on 8/15/2013 6:08:44 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Microsoft knows this. Why else do you think they are comfortable with the idea of releasing a console that has weaker specs?


They're pretty comfortable with charging you way more for less as well...

Personally I don't find your argument very compelling.


RE: not sure
By The0ne on 8/15/2013 6:47:58 PM , Rating: 2
I think that is because you lack the knowledge in the gaming industry. You can, as always, Google to find out how game developers make games, how much they cost, how long they take and why they take some long.

Complexity = more cost, most manpower, more time, steeper learning curve (as some systems have shown).

Ideally you would want to fully utilize the systems capabilities but there are a lot of restraints (see above) that will always prevent you from this. The good news is that over course of several years, as history have shown (ps2, i.e.), it may become increasingly easier to develop for.

Google, my word are all false to you remember. :)


RE: not sure
By Reclaimer77 on 8/15/13, Rating: 0
RE: not sure
By MrCoyote on 8/15/2013 9:03:29 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry but no. Here is a list of PS3 game resolutions. Most at 720p or way less.

http://forums.n4g.com/tm.aspx?high=&m=697345&mpage...


RE: not sure
By Samus on 8/16/2013 12:46:39 AM , Rating: 3
Stop putting words in my mouth, Reclaimer. You fail at reading far too often on these forums.

I said ports will often underutilize the hardware. I clarified by stating first-party titles will generally be the only products that utilize all the hardware capabilities.

The remaining content of my post is purely factual...if you bother to search Google. But you a clearly more comfortable just pulling biased opinions our of your arse.


RE: not sure
By Reclaimer77 on 8/16/2013 11:07:51 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I said ports will often underutilize the hardware. I clarified by stating first-party titles will generally be the only products that utilize all the hardware capabilities.


I know that. But so what?

That's still not a compelling argument for why we shouldn't want the best spec'd console. It's even cheaper.

Wtf kind of tech blog is this anyway? Where people cook up arguments for why a 50% increase in computing power over another device isn't a big deal. It's laughable!


RE: not sure
By Samus on 8/17/2013 12:45:35 AM , Rating: 2
Dude, are you seriously still not reading? I said in my FIRST POST ABOVE that the XBOX is a hard pill to swallow over the PS4, it being $100 more. You then go on to imply I'm a fanboy, and just now say I'm "cooking up arguments" about the power differential not being a big deal, when given the higher price for weaker hardware, it clearly is a big deal.

Will that additional power be utilized? Probably not. It took 8 years before the first PS2 game fully utilized the Emotion Engine (it was not Gran Tourismo 3 as many believe, but God of War II as Sony officially confirmed) and the PS3 (presumably XBOX 360 as well) can't be fully utilized because IBM specified liquid cooling if all 6 SPEs in the PS3 are used simultaneously, so the Devkit doesn't allow more than 3 SPEs to have pipeline activity. Since many games are ports, rarely more than 3 SPEs are used.

However, the SPE's all support different instructions (think one supports SSE, one supports 3DNOW, one supports OpenAL/GL, one supports PhysX, etc.) So some are utilized more appropriately than others, which is why they exist in the first place.

The Xenon, being very similar to the Cell in the PS3 has what many people consider the same raw power of the PS3 when considering how games are coded. The three 3.2GHz symmetrical cores in Xenon are considered to be equal to a single 3.2GHZ PPE + 3 SPEs in the PS3. The PS3, just like the PS4, has more theoretical computational power, but if history repeats itself like it has generation after generation, there will be limitations, and raw console horsepower will be considered a wash.


RE: not sure
By EricMartello on 8/17/2013 4:40:14 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Will that additional power be utilized? Probably not. It took 8 years before the first PS2 game fully utilized the Emotion Engine


Define "fully utilized". Are you suggesting that the game causes 100% load on the CPU and GPU within the system will filling up the RAM to capacity? There really isn't any meaning behind what you're saying here.

Some games will be more graphics-intensive than others, but there are certain effects that require high processing power for short durations to maintain smooth framerates, like detailed lighting and shadow effects, which a more powerful console can pull off without dropping frames. While these may not subjectively "max out" the system they can certainly tax the system.

quote:
so the Devkit doesn't allow more than 3 SPEs to have pipeline activity. Since many games are ports, rarely more than 3 SPEs are used.


Ports are irrelevant so stop talking about them. We all know that ports of popular games will be available on both platforms and that they'll more-less be the same. You buy a particular console for the FIRST PARTY titles, and that's where the raw capabilities of a console give it the POTENTIAL to stand out.

I'd also say that with 4K TVs becoming available, the more powerful console is the one that is likely going to have games that output 4K resolution.

When you're making a console you need it to have a long enough lifespan for you to recoup your R&D costs plus a healthy profit. Look at the situation Nintendo is in now, largely due to its folly with the Wii. They were morons for putting in outdated Gamecube hardware and selling it as a new system. Today they are far behind the curve and are losing the game they once dominated.

quote:
The PS3, just like the PS4, has more theoretical computational power, but if history repeats itself like it has generation after generation, there will be limitations, and raw console horsepower will be considered a wash.


Nobody ever complained that a car is too fast, a computer is to quick or that their console had too much processing power - utilized or not, a console is a company's bet on future trends in interactive digital entertainment.


RE: not sure
By artemicion on 8/15/2013 6:54:08 PM , Rating: 2
Personally, I think any game developer who spends extra time and labor exploiting the difference in specs between the PS4 vs. Xbox One is probably not a very good game developer.

If your focus is on exploiting some extra teraflops of processing power instead of building upon a solid gameplay concept, your game is probably going to suck.


RE: not sure
By EricMartello on 8/17/2013 4:24:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You couldn't be more wrong. Dating back to the Saturn, which had dual processors, almost ALL games only used one at a time developers were inexperienced at using both CPU's. This wasn't due to the SDK (which many developers such as Treasure said was excellent.) Certain games, such as Castlevania, Radiant Silvergun, and Nights: Into Dreams, all used every "ounce" of performance and those were certainly the most beautiful games. Castlevana SOTN was later ported to PS1, and there was slowdown during high sprit activity, and the bitmaps had to be cut to half resolution, even though the PS1 had a faster processor.


The Saturn had dual CPUs that were unable to access the same memory address. For instance, if CPU 1 stored something at Address X then CPU 2 could not access this data, and this really crippled it's SMP capabilities.

Sega designed the Saturn to excel at 2D graphics. No other home console had the 2D abilities that the Saturn had, but it was too little too late. It's 3D capabilities paled in comparison to the PS1, which had an actual GPU. The Saturn basically had "software 3D", because Sega thought the 2D gaming era was going to continue and that 3D would not catch on as quickly as it did. Big mistake. The Saturn also had a very good synthesizer module, allowing for complex midi music that sounded pretty good.

quote:
These days it isn't as simple as "dropping the resolution" or reducing details. Developers want a consistent product across both consoles.


There is no point in having game consoles if a particular game is going to be the same on all consoles and the PC so I would be looking at the first party titles to gauge which console to buy.

As for quality variations across platforms, modern developers use "middleware" when developing games, and middleware is the douche term for a '3D engine'. Only developers with deep pockets or specific goals are going to take the time to code their own engine; in fact it's probably not worth doing your own engine unless your title is a "franchise" that is going to have a new version every year.

That said, using a 3rd party 3D engine does simplify cross-platform development substantially. You're talking like it's still 1992 when programming for consoles was low-level using very specialized tools unique to the target console.

quote:
Therefor most games developed for the XBOX One that are ported to the PS4 will look and run nearly identical.

Microsoft knows this. Why else do you think they are comfortable with the idea of releasing a console that has weaker specs?


This is speculative, and Microsoft is making a similar decision here that Nintendo did with its Wii. They want to profit from the hardware which is a bad idea. Take a loss on the hardware and provide something with room to grow, and then focus resources on developing excellent first-party titles.

Remember, companies using 3rd party engines will be able to enable and utilize more visual effects on hardware that supports it, especially later down the line. Nearsightedness is never rewarded when it comes to tech.


RE: not sure
By artemicion on 8/15/2013 8:41:41 PM , Rating: 2
To be fair, the extra $100 is probably associated with the packed-in Kinect.

I'm curious to know what Kinect's perceived value is in the non-hardcore gamer demographic, because I've been under the impression that hardcore gamers find no value in it. Personally, I felt like the Kinect gave the Xbox 360 an edge in dance and exercise games over the PS3 and the Wii/Wii U. But I haven't used the Kinect for anything else, so I don't know if it in itself justifies the $100 price difference.


RE: not sure
By inighthawki on 8/15/13, Rating: 0
RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/2013 1:08:28 PM , Rating: 1
"It is not saved. It is not stored. It is not transferred across the network anywhere. Nobody is spying on you. There is just a little processor doing image manipulation. Nobody cares about your living room"

Right... Because the govt. doesn't use MS and other tech companies products to spy on people. Oh, wait. They do.

I agree they arent listening to everyone's conversations and wont be watching everyones camera. It would take a massive army of people to do that. What they DO do is unconstitutionally listen in on anyone that may have raised a flag. A good example is the family in PA a few weeks back. The wife was looking for a crock pot/ pressure cooker and the child wound up looking for a backpack and the husband had been on a home depot site pricing up nails and screws for a project (all at different times) the NSA showed up at their door and crawled up their asses without a warrant. They also do some amount of random checking. They do this stuff without a warrant and its complete and utter BS. If you want one of these always on in your living room you go right ahead.


RE: not sure
By artemicion on 8/15/2013 1:20:43 PM , Rating: 3
If I recall correctly, the crockpot/backpack news story was mis-reported by the media on several accounts:
1) The Feds were not involved. It was local law enforcement who investigated.
2) The internet searches were not at home, they were at work.
3) A co-worker reported the internet searches after seeing them on the husband's work computers. They were not discovered using software tracking.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/2013 1:31:12 PM , Rating: 2
OK, good to hear... But that was just an example. I used it because it hit the news. The point is that the info that has come to public light in the past few months shows that the govt. is monitoring us via tech devices, cell phones, etc. Adding a camera and Mic. to the living room that is always on (why?) is not cool.


RE: not sure
By artemicion on 8/15/2013 1:52:59 PM , Rating: 3
I've got a Foscam connected to the Internet basically 24/7. I also have a tablet, two smartphones and two laptops with webcams/mics. I also have a Xbox 360 with Kinect and PS3 with Move.

Bottom line: I've got a crapload of hypothetically hackable video and audio streams inside my house. Don't really give a crap about any of them. I personally find it kind of silly that people are singling out the Xbox One's Kinect 2 for possible privacy violations.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/13, Rating: 0
RE: not sure
By artemicion on 8/15/2013 2:36:13 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah I'm not worried about that either.


RE: not sure
By inighthawki on 8/15/2013 10:00:39 PM , Rating: 2
No, there is no "direct access." Microsoft and co. don't just give backdoor access to data streams that aren't even sent across a network. If they did, there are far bigger things to worry about. The NSA would have access to your entire computer and its hard drive contents. They could monitor everything you do locally.

Everyone needs to understand one single key detail here:
The NSA cannot just walk into any PC. They get their data from NETWORKED sources. This is information sent across some kind of network connection - phone calls, texts, cell data, internet, etc. Anything you do locally is your own business and nobody will ever know unless you are remotely hacked and a remote backdoor into your PC gives them full access.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/16/2013 8:17:47 AM , Rating: 2
They have software that picks key words out of conversations via cell phone calls, they can do it via the mic as well. Maybe a bit paranoid sounding, but given what we already know they are doing and have been doing, its not a stretch. Whatever. You want one, buy one. It still costs more and isnt as fast and wont let you watch your own streaming accounts or Skype without a Gold plan. If that sounds good to you, then by all means you go right ahead.


RE: not sure
By inighthawki on 8/16/2013 5:17:36 PM , Rating: 2
You're missing my point. Of course it can pick out words from a mic -- IF the data is sent over the network. Saying the kinect's camera information and mic data is being directly accessed by the NSA is like saying they can see and hear the video file you're watching.


RE: not sure
By wallijonn on 8/16/2013 5:35:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've got a c*** load of hypothetically hackable video and audio streams inside my house. Don't really give a crap about any of them.


Maybe you should. I could see where a hacker would be interested in viewing the inside of your house (say through a baby monitor or a Kinect) to see when to break into your house and steal everything in sight. I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't make the news in the future.

It's only hypothetical until you're victimized.


RE: not sure
By inighthawki on 8/15/2013 9:56:05 PM , Rating: 2
The huge difference is that those were web searches. They went through a network, and thus through your ISP. The kinect does not. The camera records audio and video, the kinect does processing, and the information is discarded without ever sending information (assuming you disable the sending of data to help improve the service) unless you are specifically doing something that uses it over the network, such as a skype call.

Saying otherwise is akin to claiming that the NSA has access to the video feed of my smartphone's camera even when I'm not recording or sending the data anywhere. This is only possible if the device is hacked into by an outside source and the camera is enabled remotely and streamed without authorization.


RE: not sure
By half_duplex on 8/15/13, Rating: 0
RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/2013 1:33:25 PM , Rating: 2
"We don't have a problem with the device, we have a problem with giving such capability to those who intend to use it."

Exactly. It's not that they are listening in on us all... The problem is they can be listening in on anyone at any time without a warrant.


RE: not sure
By ven1ger on 8/15/2013 2:24:15 PM , Rating: 2
They aren't listening actively. This is all being captured digitally using computers to search certain keywords that they are actively searching. We are talking tremendous amounts of information that would take a lifetime of one person just to listen to one hour worth of information.

Of course, you don't know what pervert may be listening actively or watching actively in the gov't, they are human just like everyone else. Some of the ones that are watching over us may be stalking someone via government means, the problem is that we don't know what oversight there is with such things, or if there is any, since most of these activities are not generally known to the public.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/13, Rating: 0
RE: not sure
By Reclaimer77 on 8/15/2013 6:13:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And yet John Carmack, someone who will always be a far more reliable source than anyone who ever posts on DailyTech, states that they are "essentially the same" and the difference is pretty negligible.


Someone who used to be something 10+ years ago has an opinion. Everyone bow down, and do what he says.

Now in all seriousness, Carmack doesn't live in the world of console gaming. He doesn't work in it. He's made zero meaningful contributions to it. And he wasn't consulted or helped bring either console to market in any way from a development standpoint.

So exactly why should we put THAT much weight in what he says? Also "essentially" implies they aren't exactly the same.


RE: not sure
By Strunf on 8/16/2013 8:28:44 AM , Rating: 2
He may be all that but he's also an exceptional programmer, and this doesn't change with time. Programming for consoles is no different than programming for PC, you just use different tools and that's about it.

Now you have to see the context in which he said that, he's quite well placed to talk on this topic since on PC you have a much wider range of graphics cards with different specs, so every programmer has to take that into account, and on PC I have seen many people quite happy with their middle range GC when they have maybe half the performance peak of the GTX780/Titan.

Be no fool what will set the systems apart is just like always the games available, if MS has an exclusive you like well you will buy a XBox One regardless of its graphics performance. It's the same on PC regardless how piece of crap EA is I will get the next BF4...


RE: not sure
By Roffles on 8/19/2013 4:22:01 PM , Rating: 2
it was all about the $100 for me.

shortly after E3, gamestop announced a 30% trade-in bonus you could apply towards a PS4 or XB1. i was able to trade in my ps3, xbox360, 7 used games, and 2 spare controllers for a ps4 ($435.99 total after sales tax) with only $7.83 out of pocket. so basically, they payed me 428.16 for soon to be obsolete hardware. color me surprised! i was really stoked about it because i wasn't using either system any more and didn't want to deal with the low bidding, shipping, service fees, possible complaints etcetera of selling my gear on EBay. i was also tired of dealing with both systems... slow performance, dated graphics, cable clutter. i'm rambling on now, but it felt like a huge victory.

it would have been about $115 out of pocket if i had gone for the XB1. that just wouldn't have been as satisfying as saying "i paid $7 for my new ps4".


RE: not sure
By talonvor on 9/10/2013 6:53:00 PM , Rating: 2
The reason its $100 more expensive is because MS elected to include the kinect motion control thingy and even doing that they are making a profit on each unit sold. Sony on the other hand is $100 cheaper and is in the red on each unit sold.

As far as muscle power goes, they are actually about the same, though the PS4 has a tiny bit better gpu, if you look at the performance data for each of their GPUs, they are close to the same.


RE: not sure
By artemicion on 8/15/2013 10:38:58 AM , Rating: 2
Same for me. IMO, neither console has any compelling day one exclusives, and most of the good games are coming out for 360/PS3. I don't see anything on the release calendar that looks interesting either.

Multiplatform developers tend to develop for the lowest common denominator, so it'll be the exclusives that separate the two.


RE: not sure
By Flunk on 8/15/2013 11:18:06 AM , Rating: 2
I think we're going to eventually reach a situation where Xbox One games run at ~30fps and PS4 games run at ~40fps. It's not going to be particularly noticeable unless you're very sharp on framerates.


RE: not sure
By karimtemple on 8/15/2013 11:59:50 AM , Rating: 2
I can't imagine anyone releasing a game that runs at 40fps if they could do anything about it. It's more likely that both versions would target a 30fps lock and the extra room for the +10fps would be used to execute more post-processing or tesselation or something.


RE: not sure
By kleinma on 8/15/2013 11:19:08 AM , Rating: 1
I am mostly a PC gamer but I have a 360 and my wife uses it mostly for netflix. She likes kinect 1.0 because of the voice commands, she can pause, skip around, etc.. without a controller. She hates kinect because my dogs tail wagging gets picked up as a hand waving sometimes. Maybe 2.0 will fix that.

I ordered an xbox one because it is more of an entertainment hub, and that is what I want in my living room more than a gaming console. I might get a few games for it, but the PC is just so much better for gaming. I get to use kb/m when that is the best input method, and I get to use xbox controller when that is the best input method.

If they ever make the DVR functionality of the xbox one able to record TV from my cablebox, then that would be amazing, as it would save me about 12 bucks per month I am charged for a set top box from verizon that has a DVR in it.


RE: not sure
By CaedenV on 8/15/2013 11:32:59 AM , Rating: 2
So it is a $500 entertainment hub, which requires a $60/yr gold subscription for most entertainment capabilities, plus the costs of all of your subscriptions for content....

Is it really that hard to throw together a $300 HTPC? Over the 8 year life of the system you will save yourself some ~$680 that you could spend on content over and above what you were already planning on spending. Yes, you lose kinnect functionality, but you can use tools like PC Remote on your phone and still not have to worry about having a keyboard and mouse for the system.


RE: not sure
By CaedenV on 8/15/2013 11:35:23 AM , Rating: 2
To be clear, I am not against the xbox one. I would bet it has a much better future behind it than a bankrupt Sony will be able to provide the PS4. But using a console purely as a multimedia device when there are other great media devices on the market for much cheaper sounds insane.


RE: not sure
By kleinma on 8/15/2013 12:04:25 PM , Rating: 5
well for starters I had picked up a 3 year xbox gold subscription for 80 bucks when MS had a sale on them a year back. So my gold sub is 26 bucks per year. Even when that expires, you really have to WANT to pay 60 bucks for a gold license. I don't know why people still try to make the argument. That is the MSRP cost of it. Right now, on newegg you can get a year sub for 46 dollars, and that isn't even a sale price.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Sub...

Then there is also the fact that I am sure there will be SOME games that I will get on the xbox, if only because they are an exclusive console title, or because friends of mine who I want to play online with aren't PC gamers and we want to play some stuff (madden NFL comes to mind)

My wife and I play a few casual games, like scene it, or wheel of fortune, so while it is largely an entertainment hub for me, it is still a game console on occasion.

I actually already have a raspberry pi running xbmc which acts as a media center, as I have a 20TB file storage server in my house with all my dvds and blurays ripped on it (as well as pictures, music, etc..) but it is slow and it would be nice if the xbox could consume all that content and do a better job with playback, especially if I can use kinect voice commands.

That and the fact that with all the xbox 360 stuff I have now which I plan to sell (newest model with 250GB drive, kinect, few controllers, few games), I should be able to shave about 200 bucks off the cost of the xbox one, bring it in line with the 300 dollar price tag.

The fact that the xbox one can also have HDMI input from my cablebox and allow seamless switching between cable content and other content is appealing to me.


RE: not sure
By BRB29 on 8/15/2013 1:40:18 PM , Rating: 1
There's always a sale somewhere for the subscription. If you're paying more than $40 for one then you're just too lazy to even look IMO.

I've seen newegg sell them for $30-35 quite a few times a year. I just can't see why anyone would pay full price unless you're just not looking.

Seriously, the online multiplayer experience for Xbox Live is much much better than PSN. I have both, I know.

It looks like PS4 is the "better" console but games and multiplayer is the key to success in pc or console gaming. the only anomaly seems to be a couple games like Elder Scrolls IV.

I haven't touched a single player mode for years now. The last time i played single player was for Dragon Age Origins. That was only because it was a very interesting RPG.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/16/2013 8:22:36 AM , Rating: 2
"Seriously, the online multiplayer experience for Xbox Live is much much better than PSN. I have both, I know."

Not necessarily disagreeing, or trolling, but asking a serious question... How so? I have both as well and had Gold for the 1st year. I wasn't aware of a single difference other than the price of $60 for MS Gold, vs. free for PS3 so I dropped Gold.
There was that one long outtage on PSN, but that was over 2 years ago and is fixed. How is Gold better today?


RE: not sure
By Roffles on 8/19/2013 4:44:42 PM , Rating: 2
my all time favorite online gaming experience on a console is mass effect 3 for ps3. it was just fun and i gamed with a lot of cool people. it could be a real challenge on platinum and you had to have a good crew and proper teamwork to win. i don't know and don't care if it was just as much fun on xbox live, just that it was awesome on the ps3. i'm not sure why everyone bags on the ps3's online gaming. i think it has become a common misconception.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/2013 11:28:47 AM , Rating: 2
"I was anti-xbox until they made the changes with internet and used games"

That did help. Now they have announced they will throttle the speed to avoid overheating like the previous release of Xbox360... Ugh. While I agree, I would rather throttle the speed down to avoid failure than have an actual failure, I would MUCH rather have a console with better design and heat dissipation and have neither... And it still costs more.

http://www.joystiq.com/2013/08/14/xbox-one-will-au...


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/2013 11:31:34 AM , Rating: 3
Wrong link I posted... This one explains it better.

http://www.geek.com/games/xbox-one-will-get-louder...

"Xbox One will get louder and slower instead of overheating"


RE: not sure
By kleinma on 8/15/2013 12:07:52 PM , Rating: 2
which means don't put it in a closed media cabinet, or pile a bunch of other electronics on top of it (or put it on top of other hot electronics) and you should be fine. The same thing happens to other electronics. I have seen routers die because people tuck them into this tiny corner covered with stuff sitting on top of the modem which gets hot as well, and they don't understand why it overheated and died.

The xbox 360s and PS3's that I have seen were all due to poor placement of the console. I won't say that is 100% the consumers fault, but a little common sense does go a long way. For example, I stand my xbox 360 up vertically to have the most amount of surface area exposed to open air.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/2013 12:15:48 PM , Rating: 2
That may be some of it, but the Xbox 360's prior to the "slim" redesign had phenominally high failure rates. It was overheating and failing in record high #'s for a console.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_pr...

"Since its release on November 22, 2005, many articles have appeared in the media portraying the Xbox 360's failure rates,[2][3][4] with the latest estimate by warranty provider SquareTrade to be 23.7% nearly three years ago,[5] and currently the highest estimate being 54.2% by a Game Informer survey.[6]"

Now, they are putting in some logic that makes the fan spin faster and device run slower when its hot. Which is good, most newer PC's and electronics with fans will run the fan faster when hot, but putting in good enough cooling and clocking your hardware correctly, therefore not needing to throttle is a far better solution.


RE: not sure
By Mitch101 on 8/15/2013 12:29:14 PM , Rating: 2
Thats why the box is big with lots of space, Big fans, and the heatsink big. They want it to be quiet and not struggle forcing air through the device just to make the box look cool.

Ever heard a Wii-U? Its great its compact but who wants to hear the console fans when you watching a movie?


RE: not sure
By Mitch101 on 8/15/2013 12:13:41 PM , Rating: 2
Thats not correct the XBONE can predict scenarios where idiots block the airflow of the console and the XBONE can try to compensate by increasing airflow but before it overheats it will take action preventing hardware failure. Thats called trying to cure stupid people from doing stupid things and taking into consideration where they went wrong on the original X-Box 360 designs.

The console is big and the fan big because trying to cram things in small spaces and use higher rpm fans causes console noise. They are erring on the side of caution at the cost of having a non exciting console look which is a smart thing to do. Who plays with the plastic box?

If the box means that much to you heres one people should consider buying
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/arts/culture/...


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/2013 12:28:05 PM , Rating: 2
"If the box means that much to you heres one people should consider buying"

It's not the box, its the quality and noise level... If it doesn't have any major failure rates and doesn't run loud under normal circumstances with proper airflow then then good. I do imagine MS has gone out of their way to avoid it. Reverse Logistics is insanely expensive and products with high fail rates like the XB360 eat away at profits really fast.


RE: not sure
By Mitch101 on 8/15/2013 12:33:37 PM , Rating: 2
The high failure rates were due in part to poor solder joint connections. Nearly every manufacturer had a similar issue Apple, HP, and NVidia. Microsoft is the only one who owned up to the design flaw and extended warranties while they made it right. Apple cranked up the fan speed in a bios update and blamed the consumer if it failed, HP denied the issue and blamed the consumer for the failure its why they got sued, and NVIDIA acted like it never happened either. But Microsoft owned up to it. They arent making the same mistake and if they did they would make good on it.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/2013 12:37:52 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, no--one you just mentioned had failure rates like this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xbox_360_technical_pr...

"Since its release on November 22, 2005, many articles have appeared in the media portraying the Xbox 360's failure rates,[2][3][4] with the latest estimate by warranty provider SquareTrade to be 23.7% nearly three years ago,[5] and currently the highest estimate being 54.2% by a Game Informer survey.[6]"

Palm did on their Treo's, but look where it got them.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/2013 12:38:37 PM , Rating: 2
RE: not sure
By Manch on 8/15/2013 12:15:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I would MUCH rather have a console with better design and heat dissipation and have neither...


Think you're reading into the latter article little bit too much. The geek.com article seems to be taking a hell of a slant.

joystiq.com: Xbox One will automatically adjust when overheating

Of course, the primary method for cooling the system down revolves around how the fan inside the box operates. "The way we designed the box, we don't actually intend it to ever have to go to maximum speed under normal environmental conditions," Castillo said. "But there is overhead. So we'll allow the fan to go all the way up to its maximum speed and if that solves the condition without the user having to do anything."

geek.com: "Xbox One will get louder and slower instead of overheating"

According to Castillo, the Xbox One has been designed to never run at its full performance capacity under normal conditions.

The joystiq article makes it clear he's talking about the fan never running at full capacity under normal operating conditions. The geek.com article implies that the cpu/gpu will never run at full capacity. Thats a hell of a misquote there.

Both consoles will throttle when over heating to protect the chips. These are after all AMD APU's which unlike there old procs of yore will throttle down to keep from melting themselves.


RE: not sure
By Motoman on 8/15/2013 12:16:40 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft has shown their colors, and you're daft to ever trust them again. Imagine you're a bride-to-be and you have this discussion with your future husband:

Groom: OK honey, here's just this little pre-nup kind of thing I'd like you to sign...

Bride: Ummm...what do you mean you "get to beat me if I mouth off" and I have to "take it in the pooper if I'm getting my monthly visitor?"

Groom: What, that's fine right?

Bride: No...in fact that's some of the most horrifically stupid sh1t I've ever heard in my life.

Groom: Huh. Well, based on your feedback, I've decided to lift those marital requirements. So we good to go then?

Bride: Oh yeah, sure...so totally stoked to be marrying you!

And of course, not to mention the superior hardware of the PS4 and the significantly lower price. At this point, anyone even considering buying an XBO is kind of a lunatic.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/15/2013 12:36:36 PM , Rating: 2
"Bride: Oh yeah, sure...so totally stoked to be marrying you!"

LOL... And a good point. If they don't run loud, and if they don't have high failure rates after a year or two, and if the price drops to equal the competition, and if they don't put in any other restrictive requirements, and if they don't change their minds on the previous restrictions they lifted I would be OK with buying one... But that is a lot of if's from a company that seems to have stopped listening to what their customers want and started pushing their own agenda.


RE: not sure
By BF04 on 8/15/2013 12:37:06 PM , Rating: 1
Why do I have to be a lunatic. Your mocking Microsoft for listening to there customers? Yes they change direction, all for the better. They got rid of the guy who was in charge and changed direction to better meet what there customers wanted. Sony has never changed position? Please. If they did not change you would just be telling everyone how they do not listen to the customers.

Superior hardware? Ok, on paper yes in actually playing not going to be a great difference. Plus, I like how you forget about the 200k cloud servers that are backing up XBox one. that will be real interesting to see how developers can utilize it, might take little bit. Just like Kinect, I am looking forward to it. It was awesome when I played a demo in Best Buy. There both going to be great consoles and well above today's. It just makes me laugh how die hard some people are that there can be no competition for "there" console of choice.


RE: not sure
By Wolfpup on 8/15/2013 1:13:17 PM , Rating: 2
How is 50% more power "not a great difference"? Differences of 10% are typically said to be noticeable. This gives better performance and/or visuals for free, or of course in exclusives lets devs push things a bit further.


RE: not sure
By SPOOFE on 8/15/2013 6:17:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How is 50% more power "not a great difference"?

It's the difference between turning shaders down a notch, that's all. Fire up Crysis at High versus Ultra High and try telling me both settings are a world apart.


RE: not sure
By Reclaimer77 on 8/15/2013 6:33:22 PM , Rating: 2
There's other advantages. 50% more potential graphics power means the PS4 can deliver similar or better graphics than the XBONE while drawing much less power, and generating less heat.

This should be something for anyone to consider who owned the hot faulty leaf-blower that was the original 360. My god that thing was loud, hot, and had poor build quality.

You know how cheap the 360 was? I witnessed the DVD drive in my friends 360 actually scratch the disk. Wtf! Why? The drive Microsoft chose for the 360 didn't even have those little foam pads that protect a disk-wobble event from scratching the disk. THAT'S how far they went to cut corners.

Let me put it this way, the absolute cheapest bargain basement no-name optical drive you can possibly find for sale online, has those pads.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/16/2013 11:15:26 AM , Rating: 2
"You know how cheap the 360 was? I witnessed the DVD drive in my friends 360 actually scratch the disk. Wtf! Why? The drive Microsoft chose for the 360 didn't even have those little foam pads that protect a disk-wobble event from scratching the disk. THAT'S how far they went to cut corners."

Careful, you're gonna get mitch in here yelling at you because MS admitted their errors and took care of everyone with free repairs. LOL

While admitting the issue is admirable, and taking care of repairs is expected. It still sucked for alot of people. Many had 4-5 Xbox repair cycles, some had alot more. Even if free, its still a major pain to deal with + no concole while it's in process...

Now we are hearing a few new things... MS is clocking the chip higher than initially planned to catch up with PS4 and they are going to spin the fans faster and throttle the speed if it gets too hot. Not a good sign for having learned their lesson. To me that just SCREAMS "don't buy it". Not until a few years go by without high fail rates and/or excessive loudness complaints as well.

I would pay extra for a PS4 at this point, for that alone... Good thing it's actually $100 cheaper. Good luck MS.


RE: not sure
By Motoman on 8/15/2013 1:13:33 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It just makes me laugh how die hard some people are that there can be no competition for "there" console of choice.


Not sure what you think you're getting at with "there" - but my console of choice is none. I couldn't give 2 sh1ts about any of them.

But you're a stellar example of the exact point I was making with the bride/groom example above. It's *not* all OK now. MS has proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that they strongly desire to inflict massive abuses upon the consumer. They're not going to stop trying. Trusting them at this point is an act of lunacy.


RE: not sure
By ven1ger on 8/15/2013 2:38:01 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't like the analogy but I do agree with your sentiment.

MS made a marketing decision, with the XB1, and after messing that up, they changed it to be more consumer friendly. The thing I don't get, is that MS LIED about Kinect was required and always had to be on to play your games. This is not a change in marketing, this is a direct LIE. A company that is willing to make such a bald face lie, will most assuredly change with the winds in the future back to their original marketing scheme. To take them at their word now after they changed it and then lied about something that was supposed to be so integral to your gaming experience, then go ahead let the wolf in sheep's clothing into your home, just don't complain later.


RE: not sure
By Reclaimer77 on 8/15/2013 6:26:42 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Your mocking Microsoft for listening to there customers?


I think the customers had fekall to do with it actually. People are just making this assumption because it sounds obvious.

I'm going a different way: Microsoft already knew before they announced any of this it would be EXTREMELY unpopular with gamers and the gamer-blogosphere. They were counting on Sony to either keep quite or follow suit and chase the money. Perhaps they assumed Sony had similar plans, I don't know.

Instead Sony, brilliantly, runs a negative ad-campaign against Microsoft's abusive policies while pointing out all the things the PS4 does better than the XBONE.

This sealed the Xbox's fate, not consumer feedback. Sony presented everyone instead with a better, less restrictive, AND less expensive option. This doomed Microsoft's plans to failure right out of the gate and made it a non-starter.


RE: not sure
By retrospooty on 8/16/2013 11:07:13 AM , Rating: 3
"Sony presented everyone instead with a better, less restrictive, AND less expensive option. This doomed Microsoft's plans to failure right out of the gate and made it a non-starter"

Bingo. MS "listening" isn't what we have here. What we have here is MS responding to massive public backlash from its customers, and ridicule from its competitors. To say that was MS "listening" is at best an extreme spin, but in reality its just simply not true. The issue existed in the first place from MS NOT listening to their customers.


RE: not sure
By Reclaimer77 on 8/15/2013 6:19:24 PM , Rating: 2
HEHEHE totally laughed out loud reading that. Especially the pooper part muahaha.

Great post, hard to argue with that.


Missed the boat
By CaedenV on 8/15/2013 11:26:50 AM , Rating: 2
I think where MS is missing the boat is the fact that this is being sold as a console rather than a computer. Make it a Win8 computer with came capability, open up game sales to those with win8 who are also willing to buy and use a kinnect and xbox controller. Seems like a no-brainer. You can sell it as a game console to gamers, sell it as a cheap desktop for students, sell it as a HTPC for AV enthusiasts. It just seems like all of the potential is there, but wasted.




RE: Missed the boat
By Mitch101 on 8/15/2013 12:24:10 PM , Rating: 2
That would put them into competition with PC manufacturers. Not good to bite the hand that feeds you.

In about 10 years I think they will have to go that route as by then as generic PC's become way more powerful than consumers use them. SSD closed the gap between Laptop and Standard Desktop its only a matter of time before 8k 8 core graphics are built into the CPU trumping todays high end video cards with ease.


People want games, not apps
By crimson117 on 8/15/2013 1:24:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
"This includes work to localize the Xbox One dash, incorporate additional voice and languages, and build partnerships to bring apps and meaningful local content to each country

In other words, you can't play the new video game console yet because they're too busy making it talk nice with Facebook Russia.

Why not release the uk/us version in those markets in 2013 and then later in 2014 provide a free localization download once it's ready?




RE: People want games, not apps
By cmgr33n3 on 8/16/2013 10:12:59 AM , Rating: 2
I would guess this is actually an outcome of the rumored low yield issues due to the eSRAM. Low chip yield = more time to reach supply quotas = less units available at the deadline = dropping markets from the release.

When has a software company ever let what are essentially translation issues stop them from releasing a product in a market? Like you said, they'd just toss a comment on the console's dashboard feed that says they haven't gotten Facebook/russia to work well yet but an update will be coming soon.


arthurt1johnson
By arthurt1johnson on 8/16/2013 11:36:41 AM , Rating: 2
what Ray replied I am impressed that someone can make $6335 in one month on the internet. have you seen this web page work25com




Sony hypocrites
By M1DK1LLCRYSIS on 9/7/2013 3:41:50 AM , Rating: 2
Xbox: starts off with paid online subscription

Xbox 360: keeps paid online subscription
PS3: Free online service
SONY FANS: PSN is better than xbox live gold, its free, thats why its better

Nek minut

Xbox One: Keeps paid online subscription (very public about it)
PS4: Paid online multiplayer (Sony keeps quiet and tries to confuse consumers after its too late)
SONY FANS (the ones that think its still free): Playstation online service is free and is gonna beat xbox
SONY FANS (the ones that know its a paid online subcription for multiplayer): So what if you have to pay for it, it will be better cause ... (any bull***t you can think of)

Xbox goes for DRM
PS leaves DRM at the last minute
SONY FANS: Xbox is trying to control your gaming experince if you dont have reliable internet.

Xbox controllers made for adult hands
Ps controllers made for child hands (or japanese hands technically becuase Sony is a Japanese company)
SONY FANS: Ps controllers are better cause they just are

Xbox has Kinect
Ps has Eye
SONY FANS: Kinect is lame, no-one will use it. (Nek Minut) Ps EYE looks amazing really wanna get it (even though it is not even half the power or fidelity of the kinect)

Xbox One has 300,000 dedicated servers
Ps4 has gaikai (Which is a streaming service and always has been, it is highly unlikely it will become a dedicated server service)
SONY FANS: Sony has gaiKai, Second best is ok as long as it is Sony

Wii has WiiMote
Ps has move
SONY FANS: The Wii is so gay, but hey check out these not even similar move controllers

PS2 has the biggest collection of the worst games ever made
SONY FANS: The PS2 sold so well even though it was cheap but still sold well so who cares.

Wii has terrible graphics
Xbox 360 has good graphics
PS3 has bettter graphics
PC has best graphics
SONY FANS: PS3 has the best graphics out, suck on it (obviously ignorant to PC, the Ps will never have the best graphics, sorry to say)

Xbox has smartglass
Ps4 tries to copy suit and introduces their own version of smart glass
SONY FANS: PS smartglass will most likely be better so suck that (how do you know?)

Xbox One AUD$599
PS4 AUD$549
SONY FANS:Its $50 cheaper and better specs even though it doesnt have a camera with it or doesnt have Fifa or doesnt have Dual OS (xbox uses Xbox OS as well as Windows OS on the same console)

Xbox
PS4
SONY FANS: PS4 IS better!!! (How do you know? you have never played it! There was an expert - lost source sorry ignore if you want a source - who played it in person says that the xbox 360 is a better console and its 7 and a half years old)

Moral of the story, Sony are hypocrites that are willing to kiss Sony's a** because they hate the big guy (Microsoft). This hate is illogical and usually hypocritical. I bet all you Sony fans have windows on your pc, goto Mac and have a bad time trying to find the delete key and the right mouse button. Same can be said for the U.S. people hate them for no reason, the Americans are the most benevolent of all the laeding civilizations of all time (im not American btw, I am Australiam, no bias here), for example; if you look at the Romans, they slaughted innocent people and raped entire villages for good sport, the persians killed and conquered lands and enslaved their own peoples, the english killed off many natives (in the millions) of setttled countries (Australia, America, Canada, New Zealand, South Africa) and it was kept very quiet, even germany, they killed off Jewish citizens for fear of declining jobs and recession, what a pitiful excuse to exercise racist and descriminative hate and aggression out amoung these people. So if you hate the compony who bailed out Sony while they were down then shame on you. Honestly. Tell me what you think. Haters gonna hate.




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