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17" MacBook Pro

A picture taken of the artifacting occuring on one of the failing 17" MacBook Pro. It is unclear whether NVIDIA or Apple is to blame for the failure of the $2,799 laptop's graphics.  (Source: Engadget)
Apple's pricey latest luxury offerings are showcasing poor graphical integrity

For only $2,799 you can buy yourself an entry level new 17" MacBook Pro.  And according, to recent reports, your purchase may come with a complementary side of failing graphics.

The pricey new luxury MacBook, which debuted in January at Macworld, features both 9600M and 9400M NVIDIA mobile graphics cards.  While Apple clearly thought this to be a clever design, offering both performance and power savings, by switching the 9600M on only in graphically intense situations, it appears to also be making the systems' graphics fail according to Engadget.

Numerous owners are reporting failing graphics, random green lines and artifacts on their displays.  Monitoring the graphics cards, these users believe that they have traced the problem back to when the second card -- the 9600M -- turns on.

If the second card is indeed to blame, it’s still unclear who's at fault for the fiasco.  NVIDIA last year was plagued with graphics problems, declaring nearly all its mobile GPUs to be defective and prone to overheating.  Apple also has not been without notable quality concerns of late.

Regardless of who's to blame though, the situation makes for some very unhappy MacBook Pro owners.  One can only hope the purchasers are able to warranty out their defective machines or at least hope for a firmware/driver update to solve the issues.

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Apple bad call
By Nehemoth on 3/6/2009 10:08:15 AM , Rating: 5
Why choose Nvidia when they're were having issues and when the competence was by far better?.

Bad call of Apple.




RE: Apple bad call
By n7 on 3/6/2009 10:12:40 AM , Rating: 5
I knew this was going to happen long before this news story.

I've seen it occuring with them right after they came out.

nVidia has a LOT of faulty GPUs, whether dedicated or built-in.

The issues that caused them to payout HP a couple hundred million don't just affect HP units; the same failures occur with many other PCs.

Just not "officially", so consumers that got those units are screwed after the first year when they nVidia graphics craps out.


RE: Apple bad call
By Proxes on 3/6/09, Rating: -1
RE: Apple bad call
By Phlargo on 3/6/2009 12:56:32 PM , Rating: 3
But your anecdotal evidence is no better than anyone else's.

My 8800GTS has been chugging along healthily for a little over 2 years now. And, aside from being a little loud and a little hot, it's worked like a charm.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple bad call
By StevoLincolnite on 3/6/2009 10:27:20 PM , Rating: 4
Both companies make good cards, both companies make mistakes.

I don't think I have EVER had a Graphics card actually "fail" on me in over 13+ years, if I overclock I don't go overboard.
I've had cards from the Parhelia, to the Vodooo 5, To the Savage 4, to the Radeon and Geforce.

There is something in common with all the cards I listed, and that is they all had there failings.

The Voodoo lacked TnL, the Parhelia although a "Very smart card" couldn't keep up with competition, S3 with it's half implemented TnL engine, The Radeon and Geforce... well they are watched like hawks in the computer industry anyway.

I actually chose to go with ATI on the Notebook front, so I wouldn't have to deal with such issues, A friend of mines GPU was one of the many affected, which gave me security in my purchase.

I find the ATI vs nVidia rather interesting, if you remember back in the Geforce FX days, it seemed like everyone hated nVidia for the Geforce FX's poor SM2 performance and the "Dust buster" coolers.

Forward to the botched launch of the Radeon x1xxx series, and it almost seemed like those tables reversed overnight.

However GPU's are made by man, there will always be unfortunate mistakes because of that factor alone, I just hope ATI and nVidia learn from there mistakes and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Plus it also lets people try out how good there warranty is from there particular company they bought the hardware from.


RE: Apple bad call
By JAB on 3/8/2009 12:57:54 AM , Rating: 1
One vital thing in a laptop is simple reliability. If you dont have that you have noting. It is not an easy fix like with a standard computer. Many of those computers were just replaced or the performance/battery life went down with the "fix".

They need to go back to basics and get some new tecnology out not just push the limits on there old cores with higher clocks and new stickers.


RE: Apple bad call
By Belard on 3/8/2009 6:42:28 AM , Rating: 2
Yep... unlike a bad battery, an onboard part like a GPU on northbrige is painful.

And companies like HP just pretended to let it go. No re-call of course. Most of these failures happen after a year... which renders $600~1500 notebooks useless.

When I bought my notebook about 8 months ago, it was when the Nvidia GPU failure issues were coming out more publicly. I didn't know about it. I was looking at getting an IdeaPad with the 8600m GPU (wow, I can play some games on it). But then I noticed the ThinkPad on sale for $600 with (gag) intel 3100 graphics. But it had XP standard and a matte screen NOT that stupid glossy crap that makes you end up seeing your own reflection or anything else behind you! The screen, XP and price sold me. And I'd be paranoid today about failing GPU if I bought the IdeaPad.

Since the problem is with G9x chips... when is it confirmed with a newer design to NOT have these failures? The GTX 250 is still a G92.


RE: Apple bad call
By Reclaimer77 on 3/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple bad call
By protosv on 3/9/2009 6:04:17 AM , Rating: 2
True. That said, I've also had 3 nVidia cards (6800gs, 7600gt, 8800gt) ALL fail on me within 3 years of ownership. I don't overclock, and I keep a very well ventilated case with ample power supply from a good unit (Enermax 550 watt). By contrast, I have had 2 ATI desktop cards (Radeon 4850, Radeon 9700Pro), the oldest of which is running flawlessly for over 7 years now. I also have a mobile radeon chip that has worked for over 5 years now without issue. I like nVidia's driver packages better, and they can (at times) make superior cards to ATI, but I think the quality control in my situation speaks for itself.


RE: Apple bad call
By Samus on 3/6/2009 2:26:07 PM , Rating: 2
Seriously, is anybody surprised. HP had to recall like 335,000 notebooks last year because of nVidia graphics chips. Of course nVidia blamed TSMC.


RE: Apple bad call
By rudolphna on 3/6/2009 3:38:15 PM , Rating: 4
Ive never had a problem with ATi cards. Radeon 7000, Radeon 9600, Radeon 2600, Radeon 4670, and ATi 690G Integrated chipset. Never had any problems of any kind. On the other hand, Ive never had anything but trouble from NVIDIA. Geforce 2 MX440 is the only exception. Otherwise, Ive had a FX5200, a GF 6600, a GF 8600, and had nothing but problem after problem with them. drivers, overheating, DOA, random failures... I will never go back to NVIDIA. They are a nightmare.


RE: Apple bad call
By Belard on 3/8/2009 6:46:49 AM , Rating: 3
ATI can screw up like anyone else. AMD had their problems, so does intel and Nvidia.

I've had good results with most cards I've owned.

My latest card, the ATI 4670 isn't working so great for me, it constantly crashes with UT3. Perhaps a 4850/4830 will work better - but I'm not interested in replacing my PSU.

I could power up a 9800GT with what I have, but I don't want it to die on me 6, 9 - 12 months down the road.


RE: Apple bad call
By FliGuyRyan on 3/6/2009 7:10:29 PM , Rating: 2
I'm on my third Gateway P-7811 FX which has the 9800GTS by NVidia. Finally, the third one was finally a charm.

But, the previous two, were absolutely horrible, and I even still have a few problems now.


RE: Apple bad call
By Lerianis on 3/8/2009 11:39:03 PM , Rating: 2
Funny.... I have the same computer and the only problem I have had with it, of all things, was a keyboard key popping off the keyboard when I was doing some strenuous typing on it (they inspected all the keys and replaced the keyboard with a new one when I went it back).
No graphics problems whatsoever, and I have been pretty demanding of this gaming class notebook (BioShock at highest settings and screen size, Crysis at same, etc.) and it's preformed pretty darn near flawlessly graphics wise.


RE: Apple bad call
By Lerianis on 3/8/2009 11:35:56 PM , Rating: 2
You sure about that? I'm typing away on a computer with an 9800GT graphics card in it (notebook) and having no problems in the slightest with it.

I think some of the problems are coming from underwhelming cooling on the video cards in some of these notebooks. That can lead to graphics chips 'unseating' themselves and to a boatload of other problems.


RE: Apple bad call
By Suomynona on 3/6/2009 10:13:58 AM , Rating: 5
ATI/AMD probably didn't want to kiss apple's ass.


RE: Apple bad call
By kelmon on 3/6/2009 10:20:07 AM , Rating: 3
No, I'm sure they don't need the money. I mean, it's not like they already supply Apple with GPUs for use in the iMac or Mac Pro.

Oh, wait...


RE: Apple bad call
By quiksilvr on 3/6/2009 11:02:09 AM , Rating: 1
I agree. AMD/ATI recently released their new 40nm mobile GPUs that would have been perfect. And can somebody PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD explain to me why there is a 9600M and 9400M in these laptops? You can't use both simultaneously (yet) and if power was such an issue, can't the 9600M simply be UNDERCLOCKED to conserve battery life? This is all very confusing...


RE: Apple bad call
By spread on 3/6/09, Rating: -1
RE: Apple bad call
By DASQ on 3/6/2009 12:37:07 PM , Rating: 4
Hybrid SLI is not enabled in the Macbook Pro's. It is either the 9400 or the 9600, not both.


RE: Apple bad call
By Narbo on 3/6/2009 11:51:38 AM , Rating: 4
The 9400 is part of the integrated NVIDIA MCP79 chipset. It comes for 'free'. Hence why you see it on all the Apple machines now.

For the discrete graphics they could have chosen any other part including those from ATI and I am sort of bemused why they did not chose ATI given how dominant ATI is on the low end/mobile area. I guess they didn't want to piss of NVIDIA and have to go back to using Intel chipsets.


RE: Apple bad call
By swizeus on 3/6/2009 12:32:56 PM , Rating: 2
Hey... hey... you can't mix ATI and nVIDIA to come up with a Hybrid solution


RE: Apple bad call
By Justin Time on 3/6/2009 5:09:27 PM , Rating: 2
"explain to me why there is a 9600M and 9400M in these laptops?"

Because Nvidia hadn't gotten around to changing the product number yet.

Nvidia's solution, once the market starts to know the product is broken, just change the product numbers so you can keep pushing it out the door.


RE: Apple bad call
By SavagePotato on 3/6/2009 10:39:00 AM , Rating: 5
I like how the last sentences hope for a warranty resolution or a firmware or driver fix.

I love Nvidia's firmware fixes for their overheating crap products...

Just dial it back 30% in clock speed and call it a software fix. Isn't that what they did with HP?

One more reason to be glad I payed half the price for a studio 17 from dell with better specs than the macbook and ati graphics.


RE: Apple bad call
By Fallen Kell on 3/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple bad call
By phreaqe on 3/6/2009 11:04:52 AM , Rating: 4
try again bub. the studio 17 does not even offer a 666 fsb processor and you get the 1920x1200 screen and 2.6ghz processor, 4gb of ram and still be at half the price of the macbook pro.


RE: Apple bad call
By collegeguypat on 3/6/2009 11:12:17 AM , Rating: 4
Copy Pasted from Dell's Website. This is without one of the coupons floating around that'll knock a few hundred dollars off the price:

Intel® Core™ 2 Duo P8700 (3MB cache/2.53GHz/1066Mhz FSB)

Genuine Windows Vista® Home Premium Edition SP1, 64-bit

Edge-to-Edge FullHD Widescreen 16.0 inch RGBLED LCD (1920x1080) W/2.0 MP

8X DVD+/- RW(DVD/CD read/write) Slot Load Drive

4GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1067MHz (2 Dimms)

500GB2 7200 RPM SATA Hard Drive

ATI Mobility RADEON® HD 3670 - 512MB3

High Definition Audio 2.0

Intel® 5300 WLAN Wireless-N (3x3) Mini Card

6-cell Battery

Obsidian Black with Leather Accent

1Yr Ltd Hardware Warranty

Studio XPS 16
Starting Price $1,699

So pretty much everything you said about the Dell was incorrect. Take 30 seconds and do some research before making assumptions.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 11:13:58 AM , Rating: 4
Ummm...look again.

$1940 gets you...

Dell Studio 17
17" LCD at 1920x1200
Core 2 Duo 2.66 ghz (1066 mhz fsb/6 meg cache)
Vista SP1
8x DVD-RW
4 gb DDR2-800
320 gig SATA drive
256mb ATI Mobility Radeon HD3650

Maybe you shouldn't just look at the lower end of the Studio 17 laptops.


RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 11:21:27 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I could go on, but I think everyone know the Macbook Pro has specs that blow away the Studio 17.
It's pretty funny to see someone try to make the argument that Apple has the best price/performance ratio out there for commodity PCs. Everyone knows that's not true. It just takes a few minutes of comparison shopping.


RE: Apple bad call
By Bateluer on 3/6/2009 12:02:26 PM , Rating: 1
Its more appropriate to say that everyone knows Apple's products are grossly over priced for what they offer. I can build a PC varient of the entry level Mac Pro tower for 1/3rd the price. I can build a Mac Mini for 300. Etc, etc.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 1:44:11 PM , Rating: 3
I highly doubt you can build one for 1/3rd the cost. Cheaper yes, 1/3rd, no.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 1:50:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I can build a PC varient of the entry level Mac Pro tower for 1/3rd the price
A single CPU socket "PC varient" or a dual CPU socket one?


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 3:16:50 PM , Rating: 1
Doesn't matter, as you can't build a comparable machine right now anyways. Maybe in actual performance, but not in actual specs.

Can't get the Nehalem Xeons yet. Once they do come out, there's just no way you'll build a machine at 1/3rd the cost anyways.

Workstation/server hardware is not cheap like our desktop hardware. He's probably thinking of putting together some kind of Core i7 system together.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 3:48:54 PM , Rating: 5
No, it doesn't matter, cause you can't build a single socket or a dual socket Nehalem Xeon atm. That's what I'm trying to get at.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 2:08:40 PM , Rating: 2
That's kind of a dumb statement, since Apple is using commodity PC hardware for everything. There's no "special sauce" that makes their hardware run faster than any other company's products using the same components.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/09, Rating: -1
RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 3:30:08 PM , Rating: 5
Exactly. OEM boards built for mass production systems tend to be total trash compared to your more uncommon server boards from Asus, Supermicro, Tyan, etc.

Not to mention, higher quality memory. Higher quality hard drives. Better cooling.

OEMs will go low cost, lower quality parts to maximize profits. Too low of quality and the machine breaks, so they try to find a happy medium. In a home built machine, odds are higher that you will have a faster computer with overall better parts.

Higher speed memory with lower latencies, better hard drives with higher read/writes, more features on a motherboard, etc.

In a way, a home built machine can have a "special sauce" and run better. At the same time though, you can also run worse by going with the cheapest parts available.


RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 4:16:31 PM , Rating: 1
I don't see how you could prove or even justify that statement in your mind, that Apple only picks premium components for this builds. It's just wishful thinking on your part. The reality is that Apple, just like other PC OEMs, is free to put in whatever commodity components they believe will perform "well enough" for a particular product. In other words, just the right amount of quality, no more, and no less.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 4:50:31 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
OEM boards built for mass production systems tend to be total trash compared to your more uncommon server boards from Asus, Supermicro, Tyan, etc.


What I stated from before.

Apple = OEM

quote:
OEMs will go low cost, lower quality parts to maximize profits. Too low of quality and the machine breaks, so they try to find a happy medium.


Once again, what I stated from before.


RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 4:12:41 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
"faster" is not always the same as "better"
Same thing. Replace "faster" with "better" in my post above and the point is the same.

What I'm getting at is that Apple is using commodity PC hardware, the same hardware available and in use by everyone else. Same processors, same chipsets, same memory, same video, same hard drives, etc. They are not producing custom versions of the above components to achieve "faster" or even "better."

I understand and appreciate their emphasis on "design," and that adds value for some people. But for the rest of us who look at more basic aspects of the system such as performance specs, configuration, etc., the extra cost of Apple hardware is not justified. Everyone knows this, and you know it too.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 4:39:21 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
But not the same case, cooling system, touchpad, power connector, power management and OS. These are custom and they make their hardware better. They are more energy efficient and may be also faster or "feel faster" because of custom OS.
You're going way out on a limb there, suggesting that the case, cooling system, etc. make the computer run faster/better. How so? I have a Core i7 PC here with only stock cooling and the thing is both cool and silent. It simply can't be improved upon.

And to many people, that OS is a liability, not a feature, so keep that in mind.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/09, Rating: -1
RE: Apple bad call
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 5:42:03 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Easy. Better cooling means higher clock, hence higher speed.
Using same processor, means exactly the same clock, hence exactly the same speed. A better argument would have been better stability, but I don't buy that Mac systems are 'better cooled' for 'better performance' like its a trade secret that nobody else knows about..
quote:
Don't compare desktops with notebooks, that's stupid.
His point is they don't run hot with stock cooling, it should not matter what platform you are using. If anything laptop CPU's are usually the cream of the crop because of known heat issues with laptops.
quote:
Not for the Mac buying crowd.
And this comes to show how ill informed some Mac users really are.. (notice how I said some)


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 6:22:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Using same processor, means exactly the same clock, hence exactly the same speed. A better argument would have been better stability, but I don't buy that Mac systems are 'better cooled' for 'better performance' like its a trade secret that nobody else knows about..


Not true. If you're cooling setup is trash, the processor will downclock itself.

With the Core i7s, they will overclock automatically if you have good cooling. Course the Macbook doesn't use an i7.


RE: Apple bad call
By Reclaimer77 on 3/7/2009 9:21:24 AM , Rating: 1
Uhhh, the i7 won't underclock itself until it hits 90c or 100c. I don't know anybody's "cooling setup" that's THAT bad.

quote:
With the Core i7s, they will overclock automatically if you have good cooling.


??? If by overlock you mean Speedstep up to maximum stock speed, then yes. But overclock itself ? No.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 7:24:44 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
better argument would have been better stability
WinPC notebooks have cooling holes at the bottom, MacBooks have them at the top. You put WinPC on a couch, it blocks incoming airflow through the bottom, CPU overheats and throttles, going slow. MacBook you can put on whatever you want, nothing is blocking incoming airflow vents since they are at the top, not at the bottom, hence CPU has no overheating and throttling and works faster because of that. See why MacBook's cooling system is better than WinPC notebook's one now?


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 7:47:02 PM , Rating: 2
Did you just say that? Maybe you should look closer at PC notebooks and Macbook. Guess where Apple puts theirs? Right at the bottom and the hinge.

http://www.hardwarezone.com/img/data/articles/2008...

http://www.tuaw.com/media/2006/06/macbook_film.jpg

You can't have incoming airflow if the exhaust vents are blocked. Better than a PC notebook? Hardly.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 10:29:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Guess where Apple puts theirs?
MacBook Air is the only exception :P And even there they are not on the flat bottom like on a WinPC notebook, they are closer to the back SIDE WALL (so to say) of the case which helps incoming air flow when MBA lies on a bed for example.


RE: Apple bad call
By DCMan on 3/7/2009 8:21:31 PM , Rating: 2
What happens if I install OS X on my Windows based laptop? Do the vents move? ;) I'm just messing.. :D

But Just for the record, alot of windows laptops have vents on the side/back rather than top/bottom.. :)


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/7/2009 8:24:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
alot of windows laptops have vents on the side/back rather than top/bottom
Haven't seen any on notebookreview.com, at least among powerful ones comparable to MacBook or MacBook Pro performance wise. Lousy uberslow netbooks like Vaio P don't count, sorry. Care to provide a link proving your words?


RE: Apple bad call
By DCMan on 3/10/2009 8:26:20 PM , Rating: 2
Couldn't find any decent photos, but this is from a review of my laptop:

quote:
on the left side is a 5-in-1 card reader, an ExpressCard slot, a 10/100 Ethernet connector, a Firewire connector, a fourth USB 2.0 connector, as well as a the fan vent and security keyhole.


From: http://www.crn.com/hardware/207100827

And again, I'm not picking holes, I'm just pointing out that they are out there!


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/10/2009 8:43:53 PM , Rating: 2
Don't lie to me, DCMan, 'cause it's very easy to check

Here: http://www.notebookreview.com/assets/23293.jpg

So your Lenovo 3000 N200 is full of vent holes at the bottom.

EPIC FAIL :P


RE: Apple bad call
By DCMan on 3/11/2009 9:16:50 AM , Rating: 2
Please don't accuse me of lying. That's completely out of order, isn't it?. What right do you have to tell me that i'm lying, when you have no idea what was going on at the time, which meant I couldn'd find a good photo? This article is about a computer, not about childish name calling/accusations.

The discussion was about how and where the computer vents hot air, and overheating etc. That mainly comes from the cpu/gpu, which on the laptop I mentioned, the vent is on the side. I assure you that the vents on the bottom if that laptop will not cause the computer to overheat if blocked. I know this, as the one I have has been sat on a bed for over a day, with the cpu working at 100% load, with all the vents blocked, apart from the side vent.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/11/2009 5:41:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Please don't accuse me of lying
Well, you knew your notebook has holes at the bottom, but you lied by saying it has none of them.
quote:
the one I have has been sat on a bed for over a day, with the cpu working at 100% load, with all the vents blocked, apart from the side vent
Yeah, your CPU was throttling itself down all this time because you blocked incoming air vents at the bottom. Which only proves my point.

BTW there can't be any incoming air vents on the side because turbine-type fans used in notebooks _require_ bottom or top incoming air flow hole, not the side one.


RE: Apple bad call
By DCMan on 3/11/2009 7:30:27 PM , Rating: 2
No, it wasnt throttling. And there is an intake on the back for incoming air..


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/11/2009 9:34:22 PM , Rating: 2
"No it wasn't throttling" because you believe in it? Okay... :)))

As for intake - you should show me its cooling fan, because for turbine fans there's no such thing as side intake. No proof? No trust. Easy, eh?

I've seen dozens and dozens of blatant liars here, everyone on DT lies about Apple like batsh1t crazy, this is why I'm not buying your words without proof, sorry.


RE: Apple bad call
By DCMan on 3/19/2009 11:27:43 AM , Rating: 2
Apologies for not replying sooner - I've been crazily busy!

Well, I hope you believe me that I am not lying to you, and never would on purpose! I am just stating what I believe to be the truth, based on my usage/experience etc etc.

I'll try and get some photos when I have a few spare mins and try and show you what I'm meaning! :)


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 5:04:55 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
But not the same case, cooling system, touchpad, power connector, power management and OS. These are custom and they make their hardware better. They are more energy efficient and may be also faster or "feel faster" because of custom OS.


Well the Macbook's metal casing makes it a small stove that sits on your lap.

If the cooling system is causing the overheating of the gpu, then it's obviously not all that great then. That's if it's the problem.

Touchpad. That's all up to user preference. I prefer having buttons to go with my touchpad.

Power connector. All opinion.

Power management. Comparable to a laptop similiarly equipped. Give or take a few minutes on battery life.

OS. Again, all opinion. I personally hate OSX. You on the other hand, may love it. Am I wrong? Are you wrong? No, neither of us are wrong. They are both great OS's.

quote:
That's why I don't agree that Apple hardware is overpriced in general. It is overpriced only for a certain slice of market looking just at the sheet specs. For other people it is not overpriced at all, it just depends on what the buyer is looking for, just the raw performance/price ratio or something else.


When looking at Apple's computers and other comparable PCs, it is overpriced. They can do the exact same things. Now if all you're looking for is a computer with good performance and shiny exterior you'll probably get an Apple.

Most PC users don't care about what their laptop looks like. They want is high performance and within their budget. PC Enthusiasts are much the same, but we like to put a higher budget on PC purchases/builds.

Hell my system costs more than a Mac Pro (when I built it). Granted I also bought a keyboard, mouse, and monitor.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 9:35:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I prefer having buttons to go with my touchpad
Why do you need them if the multitouch Apple touchpad is one big button with which you can also do right clicks if you want?
quote:
Power management. Comparable to a laptop similiarly equipped
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/centrino2laptop... paints totally different picture.
quote:
They can do the exact same things
Lexus can do exact same things as Toyota, but costs quite a bit more. Is it overpriced then?


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 11:44:17 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Why do you need them if the multitouch Apple touchpad is one big button with which you can also do right clicks if you want?


When I use my laptop, I keep my hands on the keys. When I need to scroll around, I only drop my right thumb down to the touchpad to scroll around. Can I work Apple's touchpad, just like a PC touchpad with only my right thumb?

quote:
http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/centrino2laptop... paints totally different picture.


And where's the XP machines? Also where are similiar spec'd PC laptops?

Course when you plan on actually doing something on your Macbook, it turns to complete crap.

http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/centrino2laptop...

quote:
Lexus can do exact same things as Toyota, but costs quite a bit more. Is it overpriced then?


Yes. Just like Acura, Infiniti, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, etc. There's so many other cars that can provide the same level of performance at a lower cost.

Impreza STI. $35k. Compareable BMW 535i wagon. $55k. The BMW 3 series is closer to the STI in price. Problem there is the STI has 70 more hp and AWD. Can also go for a Lancer Evolution, which is comparable to the STI and around the same price.

Luxury cars don't make much sense to me, but there's ppl out there willing to get ripped off.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/7/2009 2:22:22 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
I only drop my right thumb down to the touchpad to scroll around
You can scroll in two directions, vertically and horizontally on your WinPC laptop with one finger? How do you do that? Haven't ever seen this on WinPC hardware.
quote:
And where's the XP machines?
Come on, next thing you ask is to compare OS X with MS DOS? Don't be ridiculous :)
quote:
Also where are similiar spec'd PC laptops?
They all are similar spec'd, don't you see that?
quote:
Course when you plan on actually doing something on your Macbook, it turns to complete crap.
And next you gave me the link to http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/centrino2laptop... which shows that MacBook is _the_ _longest_ _running_ DVD playing machine among all the laptops. Nice try! :)))
quote:
There's so many other cars that can provide the same level of performance at a lower cost
Performance is not the only criterion that matters in cars. Same is true for computers too.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/7/2009 8:22:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
You can scroll in two directions, vertically and horizontally on your WinPC laptop with one finger? How do you do that? Haven't ever seen this on WinPC hardware.


Yes, I can scroll vertically and horizontally on my laptop with one finger.

http://www.afkrotch.com/Random_Pics/Setup/DSC00215...

quote:
Come on, next thing you ask is to compare OS X with MS DOS? Don't be ridiculous :)


How's that a ridiculous request, when majority of the market is still using WinXP?

quote:
And next you gave me the link to http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/centrino2laptop... which shows that MacBook is _the_ _longest_ _running_ DVD playing machine among all the laptops. Nice try! :)))


The Macbook has the highest battery life drop compared to the PC. So much so that a Vista bloated machine is able to catch up.

quote:
Performance is not the only criterion that matters in cars. Same is true for computers too.


You have safety and performance. After that is creature comforts, which I could give a damn about.

As for a computer, most users will jam it under a desk, hidden from sight. So pretty much performance is the only criteria.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/7/2009 2:57:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I can scroll vertically and horizontally on my laptop with one finger
Ah, standard scroll strips. Not free scrolling in any direction without scroll strips. Okay, if you like it it's your choice. Maybe you'll try free scrolling on a Mac and see the difference, sometime...
quote:
when majority of the market is still using WinXP?
It's ridiculous because NO REVIEW SITE WILL REVIEW ANCIENT HARDWARE AND ANCIENT OS. Anandtech reviewed new stuff you can buy in stores NOW. You can't walk in the store and buy modern Centrino 2 notebook with XP today. So you can't wiggle yourself out of this, dude. Compare comparables, and not the technologies that are 7 years apart, okay? :P
quote:
The Macbook has the highest battery life drop compared to the PC
Where did you get this from? Can't see anything like this in my Anandtech related links and graphs I posted here.
quote:
creature comforts, which I could give a damn about
This is why premium computers and premium cars are overpriced to you - because you don't care about comfort. Most DT readers are like you, they have no idea what is comfort and why would anyone ever need it. Hence my permanent -1 rating here :P


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/7/2009 11:10:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ah, standard scroll strips. Not free scrolling in any direction without scroll strips. Okay, if you like it it's your choice. Maybe you'll try free scrolling on a Mac and see the difference, sometime...


One thumb scrolling or removing a hand from my keyboard to do multiple finger scrolling. No thanks.

quote:
It's ridiculous because NO REVIEW SITE WILL REVIEW ANCIENT HARDWARE AND ANCIENT OS. Anandtech reviewed new stuff you can buy in stores NOW. You can't walk in the store and buy modern Centrino 2 notebook with XP today. So you can't wiggle yourself out of this, dude. Compare comparables, and not the technologies that are 7 years apart, okay? :P


OEM PCs come in a variety of makes and models for different purposes. I can easily buy a modern Centrino 2 notebook with XP. I can buy one with Linux. I can buy one with no OS.

quote:
Where did you get this from? Can't see anything like this in my Anandtech related links and graphs I posted here.


Oh...I forgot. Apple didn't tell you what to think here.

Your picture shows the Macbook with over 3 times the amount of battery life during internet usage, while the picture I show has the Macbook drop down to the same as higher performance PCs during DVD playback.

quote:
This is why premium computers and premium cars are overpriced to you - because you don't care about comfort. Most DT readers are like you, they have no idea what is comfort and why would anyone ever need it. Hence my permanent -1 rating here :P


Premium computers don't have creature comforts. Unless you consider "it looks pretty" a creature comfort.

For a car, the creature comforts does something. Heated seats for your balls, GPS cause you don't know your way home, brakes for you cause you don't know how to drive, etc.

Macbook doesn't have creature comforts. It does the exact same things as a PC notebook. Just the way you do it is a different.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/8/2009 3:46:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I can easily buy a modern Centrino 2 notebook with XP
Hahaha, even on newegg there just SEVEN XP notebooks versus alsmost TWO HUNDRED with Vista :))) So tell your fairy tales to someone else. Tell 'em you just drop by any local retail store and there are DOZENS and DOZENS of various Centrino 2 notebooks with XP. Maybe some cocksucker like chicko will believe you.
quote:
Macbook drop down to the same as higher performance PCs during DVD playback
But it's still lived longer on a battery than the other WinPC machines, hasn't it? ;-)
quote:
Heated seats for your balls, GPS cause you don't know your way home, brakes for you cause you don't know how to drive, etc.
Small weight and thickness to ease your hands, backlit keyboard to ease your eyes, virus-safe OS if you don't know how to surf, etc. It's all the same stuff as in cars, man, you just don't understand it.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/9/2009 2:54:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hahaha, even on newegg there just SEVEN XP notebooks versus alsmost TWO HUNDRED with Vista :))) So tell your fairy tales to someone else. Tell 'em you just drop by any local retail store and there are DOZENS and DOZENS of various Centrino 2 notebooks with XP. Maybe some cocksucker like chicko will believe you.


There called corporate notebooks. All your major OEMs make multiple different models all with Vista or XP. Sometimes with Linux or no OS.

quote:
But it's still lived longer on a battery than the other WinPC machines, hasn't it? ;-)


Thought the arguement was on power management. Obviously OSX does a terrible job of it when the user doesn't more complicated tasks like watch a DVD. If I wanted to show a pic of higher battery life, I'd just show a dual battery Alienware or something.

quote:
Small weight and thickness to ease your hands, backlit keyboard to ease your eyes, virus-safe OS if you don't know how to surf, etc. It's all the same stuff as in cars, man, you just don't understand it.


Small weight and thickness doesn't affect typing. All it'll affect is carrying around the notebook. Course the Macbook Pro almost weight 2 pounds more than my own notebook. Once I get a netbook, that's over 3 pounds of extra weight. You can claim having more power, but I don't need it for travel.

Not sure how backlight keyboards will ease my eyes. It just makes it easier for ppl who can't type. I push out 80-100 wpm. Don't need it.

Virus-safe? You mean, like the virus for OSX that came out in Jan 2009? How about the fact that it's usually the easiest to get hacked at Defcon?

I never said it wasn't the safe stuff as in cars. It's also just as pointless as the extra crap in cars. Some are smart enough to not need them.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/9/2009 6:41:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
corporate notebooks
We were comparing consumer notebooks actually, haven't you noticed?
quote:
If I wanted to show a pic of higher battery life, I'd just show a dual battery Alienware or something
How about if you wanted to show a pic of higher battery EFFICIENCY, i.e. minutes of work per one mAh of battery capacity? What WinPC notebook would save you then, huh? :)))
quote:
Course the Macbook Pro almost weight 2 pounds more than my own notebook
What's your notebook make and model? Would be interesting to see how it compares against MacBook Pro
quote:
Once I get a netbook
Is this netbook going to be 15" or 17" one?
quote:
that's over 3 pounds of extra weight
Compared to what? To netbook-like MacBook Air which weighs JUST THREE POUNDS?! Sounds like a lie to me.
quote:
You can claim having more power, but I don't need it for travel.
You can keep comparing machines with different screen sizes, like 17" MacBook Pro versus 10" PC netbook, I just don't care about such "truck versus bicycle" comparisons :)))
quote:
Not sure how backlight keyboards will ease my eyes
Try to type when there's not enough light around you.
quote:
You mean, like the virus for OSX that came out in Jan 2009? How about the fact that it's usually the easiest to get hacked at Defcon?
I mean, like the fact that you usually don't see self-propagating malware (self-propagating means WITHOUT end user participation) for Macs in the wild. How about the fact that all these "hacks" still never made it out of Defcon into the wild, and there have never _ever_ been anything like Downadup/Conficker mass infection for OS X?
quote:
Some are smart enough to not need them
Sure, some people are smart enough to accurately predict their distant future so they know for sure they will never get into the accident and hence they don't need no crappy seat belts. LOL.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/9/2009 9:34:57 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
We were comparing consumer notebooks actually, haven't you noticed?


Corporate notebooks can be sold to consumers, if you didn't know. I can order one right now if I felt like it.

quote:
How about if you wanted to show a pic of higher battery EFFICIENCY, i.e. minutes of work per one mAh of battery capacity? What WinPC notebook would save you then, huh? :)))


All I have to do is show a netbook. Bet it gets better battery life. Hell the Gateway P-7811 FX was right up there with the Macbook Pro in battery life during dvd play and it's hardware is loads better to boot.

quote:
What's your notebook make and model? Would be interesting to see how it compares against MacBook Pro


My notebook. It's an Everex Stepnote SA2053T. Clocks in at about 1.5-2 hours for the 3 cell battery or 2.5-3 hours with the 6 cell. You get both batteries with the laptop. I probably get around 4 hours of battery life with both batteries. It's got older hardware, so sucks more juice. That's why I'm looking at a netbook.

quote:
Is this netbook going to be 15" or 17" one?


The hell would I want a 15-17" netbook?

quote:
Compared to what? To netbook-like MacBook Air which weighs JUST THREE POUNDS?! Sounds like a lie to me.


So we tossing in the expensive as crap MacBook Air now? About the same specs as my laptop, same weight, only 3 times the price.

quote:
ou can keep comparing machines with different screen sizes, like 17" MacBook Pro versus 10" PC netbook, I just don't care about such "truck versus bicycle" comparisons :)))


So why did you bother to show a picture of a Macbook Pro with horrible hardware compared to gaming laptops with SLI/Crossfire and try to show battery life?

quote:
Try to type when there's not enough light around you.


Oh, you mean type on the keyboard sitting right in front of the bright LCD screen?

quote:
You mean, like the virus for OSX that came out in Jan 2009? How about the fact that it's usually the easiest to get hacked at Defcon?
I mean, like the fact that you usually don't see self-propagating malware (self-propagating means WITHOUT end user participation) for Macs in the wild. How about the fact that all these "hacks" still never made it out of Defcon into the wild, and there have never _ever_ been anything like Downadup/Conficker mass infection for OS X?


Probably cause hackers already feel terrible that Apple raped you in the ass.

quote:
I never said it wasn't the safe stuff as in cars. It's also just as pointless as the extra crap in cars. Some are smart enough to not need them.


Not sure why I typed that. Don't even remember typing it. I think I'm having a brain embolism talking with ya.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/9/2009 11:18:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Corporate notebooks can be sold to consumers
Yeah, I know, but Anandtech was comparing modern consumer notebooks. Bringing some MS DOS/XP/another ancient tech based computers in there wouldn't be quite correct for such a comparison, don't you think?
quote:
All I have to do is show a netbook. Bet it gets better battery life
Netbook gets MORE THAN FIVE HOURS of battery life while surfing the Web on a _SINGLE_ battery? Which one? Tell me the model please.
quote:
Hell the Gateway P-7811 FX was right up there with the Macbook Pro in battery life during dvd play
Did you notice how badly MacBooks raped all the WinPC notebooks in the battery efficiency graph?

Here is this graph again: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/centrino2laptop...

Did you notice that MacBook Air got 6.97 minutes of Internet usage per one Whr of battery capacity while your puny Gateway 7811 got only 1.75 minutes per one Whr? That's NOT EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE to efficiency of MacBook's power management. I'm sorry, man, but this graph tells the whole story about energy efficiency of MacBooks versus WinPC notebooks.
quote:
it's hardware is loads better to boot
Unfortunately it's loads thicker and heavier too :P
quote:
It's an Everex Stepnote SA2053T
No, you can't seriously compare your Everex with MacBook Pro, these are very different machines with very different power, ergonomics, screens and everything else. The only thing in common between them is that they are all notebooks of some kind.
quote:
The hell would I want a 15-17" netbook?
Then why are you trying to compare tiny 10" netbook with a larger and way more powerful MacBook Pro? It's like comparing a bicycle to an 18-wheeler.
quote:
About the same specs as my laptop, same weight, only 3 times the price.
[ after visiting http://www.pcworld.com/reviews/product/30087/revie... ] And twice amount of time it can surf the Web on one battery, don't forget about that :P What else interesting about your Everex versus MBA? Let's see. Everex is: half the RAM of MBA, twice as thick, about a pound heavier, smaller screen and keyboard, no backlight on keyboard, no LED backlight on the screen, slower old generation CPU, etc etc. You're just not noticing all this because you can't afford MBA. Keep pretending you're blind, whatever :)
quote:
So why did you bother to show a picture of a Macbook Pro with horrible hardware compared to gaming laptops with SLI/Crossfire and try to show battery life?
Because MacBook Pro also has pretty powerful hardware, often quite better than that of the WinPC notebooks there. Take Asus U6V for instance - its puny nVidia 9300 GPU is a joke compared to MacBook Pro's GPU. And yet MBP easily rapes its joke of a battery life and piss-poor power management, EVEN THOUGH MBP has way faster hardware than this U6V machine, now isn't that something, huh? :)) Noticed how bad was the battery efficiency for U6V on the graph above? ONLY 2.81 MINUTES PER WHR! This is a sad, sad joke, man.
quote:
you mean type on the keyboard sitting right in front of the bright LCD screen?
Yeah, the same LCD screen that eats your battery like crazy when you increase its brightness to maximum just to see keyboard.
quote:
Apple raped you in the ass
Nope, 'cause I haven't got any Apple hardware bought by my own money :P Just a business machine, a Power Mac provided by my employer. Keep lying, man, but it's getting boring, really. Find some fresh ideas, don't just repeat other WinPC trolls, will ya please?


RE: Apple bad call
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 4:38:48 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Everyone knows this, and you know it too.
I don't think he does, he bought an Alienware PC..


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 5:06:27 PM , Rating: 2
True true. Ugly looks, high price. Macs definitely look better than Alienware.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple bad call
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 5:26:39 PM , Rating: 5
I disagree, I don't wear high heels.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 5:31:21 PM , Rating: 2
Umm...no. I'd never buy Alienware. My setup.

http://www.afkrotch.com/Random_Pics/Setup/DSC00199...
http://www.afkrotch.com/Random_Pics/Setup/DSC00200...
http://www.afkrotch.com/Random_Pics/Setup/DSC00206...
http://www.afkrotch.com/Random_Pics/Setup/DSC00207...
http://www.afkrotch.com/Random_Pics/Setup/DSC00208...
http://www.afkrotch.com/Random_Pics/Setup/DSC00209...

I build my own desktops and I use an Everex 12.1" stepnote laptop. I will probably end up getting a netbook in the future. The Dell Inspiron Mini 9 is on my radar atm.

For me, battery life and size are more important than performance. I don't want to be lugging around a heavy laptop for the 10+ hour flights I take 2-4 times a year. It sucks...a lot. I use to lug around a Panasonic Toughbook. 8 extra pounds on you, when you're running across an airport to catch a connecting flight blows hard.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 5:55:35 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I'd never buy Alienware
You'd buy it first thing if you like me needed an inexpensive high-quality 17" gamebook.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 6:19:20 PM , Rating: 3
No. I'd get a Toshiba Qosmio X305.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 7:53:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'd get a Toshiba Qosmio X305
Doesn't change anything, they're all the same for the same price and with the same hardware, just the logos are different.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 11:55:11 PM , Rating: 2
You can't even configure them to be the same. Toshiba doesn't allow you to configure the X305. The Alienware don't use the same hardware, so you can't configure it to be the same as the X305.

So how are they the same, with the same price and the same hardware?


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/7/2009 2:33:20 PM , Rating: 2
Configure Alienware M17 and your Toshiba so that they cost the same and you'll see their performance is the same too.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/7/2009 11:32:45 PM , Rating: 1
Ya...sure. Do you even look this stuff up before saying it?

Toshiba Qosmio X305-Q715
2.53 ghz C2D
17" LCD (1440x900)
4gb DDR3-1066
1gb Geforce 9800m GTS
320gb 7200 rpm hdd
DVD-RW Lightscribe (doesn't say speed, but probably 8x)
Wireless N
Wireless USB
Vista Home Premium

$1,649.99

Alienware M17

2.53 ghz C2D
17" LCD (1440x900)
2gb DDR3-1066
512mb Radeon HD 3870
160gb 7200 rpm hdd
8x DVD-RW (no lightscribe)
Wireless b/g (no N)
Vista Home Premium

$1,649.00

So for the same cost, I get less from Alienware. Less memory, less hard drive space, lower video card, no lightscribe, no Wireless N, and no Wireless USB.

To bring it somewhat up on par with the Toshiba would bring the laptop to $2,063.00. Even then, it's missing a webcam, FM tuner, and media card reader. Not to mention the lower video card.

Cost the same and put out the same performance my ass. Alienware is just an overpriced piece of shit.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/8/2009 3:36:31 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe Toshiba finally caught up with Alienware's price/performance, but it wasn't so half a year ago when I bought my M17.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/9/2009 3:01:41 PM , Rating: 2
Kind of funny considering that laptop has been out for half a year and the one before was also better for price/performance when compared to Alienware.

It's never made sense to buy Alienware if you want price/performance. The only reason ppl bought Alienware was because it was Alienware. It's the only higher performance PC brand that majority of everyone knows.

But doesn't matter too much now as Alienware = Dell.


RE: Apple bad call
By kelmon on 3/6/09, Rating: -1
RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 1:15:49 PM , Rating: 5
The point is that Apple zealots shouldn't even "go there." There are lots of positive arguments that can be made about Apple products, but price/performance is not one of them.


RE: Apple bad call
By kelmon on 3/6/09, Rating: -1
RE: Apple bad call
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 4:22:58 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Honestly, it's like being back in the playground every time one of these topics comes up with each side trying to put their own spin on the subject in order to justify what they bought themselves.
We are not justify anything. Why would we have to justify paying a lower price?

Tomz has a point, Pro Mac users keep trying to say that Apple is competitive in price/performance, when in reality no matter how you slice it is completely untrue.

You don't ususally try to justify something when the outcome is a good thing, (i.e lower price) on the other hand, Mac users constantly try to justify the higher price they pay.

That's the point.. which you obviously don't get.

If you brought up points such as, Apple is easier to use, their cases look nicer.. etc etc.. Then perhaps we would listen to what you have to say, but trying to continually justify the high price is pointless.

Apple has gigantic margins on all their products, that's our proof that you are overpaying. So trying to constantly say they compare in price/performance is getting very old. We keep bringing it up because Apple refuses to change, you can't say we don't have an argument here, Pirks and yourself do not.


RE: Apple bad call
By kelmon on 3/7/2009 6:04:13 AM , Rating: 2
But you are justifying what you bought otherwise why would you even bother getting involved in such a stupid, pointless and puerile debate? You want to feel as though you made the "better" decision, which for what you need probably was the case.

I also disagree that Apple is uncompetitive on price/performance. What people have decided to compare here is a Dell Studio 17 with a 17" MacBook Pro and they do not have either the same market or specification. By all means compare them based on stuff like the processor or memory, but unless you are taking into account the needs of the target market then the debate is, again, pointless. The Dell is a "cheap as chips" multimedia laptop designed for consumers. The Apple is a premium system designed for photographers. There will be those who will claim that the MacBook Pro is "form over function" but that is based on their own requirements, or lack thereof. The Dell is not comparable to the MacBook Pro for the simple reason that it is a considerably bigger system. I am quite certain that Apple could make a cheap 17" laptop if they didn't concentrate on making it thin and constructed it out of plastic. But that's not what their target market wants. When Dell makes something directly comparable to the MacBook Pro, then I'd be prepared to listen to arguments about prices. Until then this whole debate remains as pointless as it was when it started.

Please also note that not once have I brought up the price/performance in my previous comments. I'd appreciate it if you don't suggest that I did, or discuss what I said and Pirks in the same comment.

Anyway, you can rest easily in the knowledge that this is my final comment on the subject, either in this discussion or future ones. Feel free to continue wasting your own time.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/09, Rating: -1
RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 2:05:29 PM , Rating: 4
Yeah, I think a direct link here would be appropriate: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=ma...


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/09, Rating: -1
RE: Apple bad call
By Whaaambulance on 3/6/2009 3:01:26 PM , Rating: 2
Cost efficiency is the clear winner, no matter how you look at it. That is why Apple is still a niche market. For the same price as say, a Mac Pro, I can build a more powerful setup for almost half the price. Of course, that isn't everyone's cup of tea, but to the people who are tech savvy and looking to get the most 'bang for the buck', Apple doesn't make much sense for them.

If you need more proof of this, just notice Apples declining sales in the laptop/desktop market.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 3:21:14 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Apples declining sales in the laptop/desktop market
http://apple20.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2009/01/21/li...

"Macs. 9% growth, a lot better than the rest of the PC market, which contracted last quarter."

Check your facts, liar :P


RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 4:02:11 PM , Rating: 3
You're in denial, dude.

http://www.google.com/search?q=mac+sales+decline

It's all over the 'net.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 4:11:30 PM , Rating: 2
Are you expecting me to argue with rumors, dude?


RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 4:19:39 PM , Rating: 2
WTF are you talking about "rumors"? Just pick any article, they are talking about sales figures, not rumors. Like the first Google result for example:

Sales of Macs in U.S. stores last month declined 1% from a year ago, while industry-wide PC sales rose 2%, according to research firm NPD Group Inc., which tracks retail sales.

NPD analyst Steve Baker blamed a 35% drop in sales of desktop Macs, noting growth in Apple's laptops still outpaced rivals.

Bottom line is tha Apple will not escape the effects of the rescession; it's impossible. Get used to being on the defensive for the coming months.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 4:47:57 PM , Rating: 4
That's the best you can say after calling the OP a liar, and then having been proved wrong yourself?


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/09, Rating: -1
RE: Apple bad call
By chick0n on 3/7/09, Rating: 0
RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/8/09, Rating: -1
RE: Apple bad call
By Whaaambulance on 3/9/2009 11:14:19 AM , Rating: 2
Pirks is a moron. It has already been proven time and time again. Nothing to see here folks.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/9/2009 12:16:51 PM , Rating: 2
Whaaambulance is a moron. It has already been proven time and time again. Nothing to see here folks.


RE: Apple bad call
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 4:26:36 PM , Rating: 4
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123500167089517623...

Damn wall street journal publishing rumors!!! What is this world coming too?

P.S this was the first thing that came up when I Googled "Apple: sales decline", it did not require a treasure hunt.


RE: Apple bad call
By superflex on 3/6/2009 3:09:49 PM , Rating: 1
Sound like you love your Apple.
Why not pair it up with some Bose speakers and Monster Cable?
Voila....Your and idiot.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 3:31:55 PM , Rating: 5
FYI. When calling someone else an idiot, make sure your post is spotless.


RE: Apple bad call
By Sazar on 3/6/2009 3:18:32 PM , Rating: 2
Other than perhaps thickness and maybe weight and, perhaps, the touchpad (Dell's are coming with multi-touch touch-pads too these days) you will be hard-pressed to argue the other points.

The Dell will likely have a better screen (comparison tests prove that even the Dell Mini has a better screen the the Mac Pro), the keyboards are backlit although it may be an option, the power bricks are typically smaller form-factor even though the connector may not be magnetic.

What's the point of a magnetic connector if you have a gigantic brick v/s a small adapter that is the size of a pack of cards? And Dell and HP both have very good battery life on their products.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 3:44:18 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
comparison tests prove that even the Dell Mini has a better screen the the Mac Pro
LOL, Mac Pro does not have a screen :)))) Check your facts please.
quote:
What's the point of a magnetic connector if you have a gigantic brick
I have a gigantic brick on my Alienware M17, and no magnetic connection. Would be nice to have though.

Magnetic power connection is not about the size of your AC power adapter anyway.
quote:
Dell and HP both have very good battery life on their products
Read this: http://www.anandtech.com/mobile/showdoc.aspx?i=343... look at the graphs and in particular please pay attention to this one: http://images.anandtech.com/graphs/centrino2laptop...


RE: Apple bad call
By Sazar on 3/6/2009 5:59:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
LOL, Mac Pro does not have a screen :)))) Check your facts please.


The implication was Macbook Pro, I assumed, erroneously apparently, that the inference would be obvious. I'll be sure to spell everything out and preface with the obligatory lol's and other useful terms.

Regardless, the screen quality on the new Studio's is pretty good and tests have shown that even the Dell Mini has a better screen than the Apple professional notebooks.

http://gizmodo.com/5140178/dell-mini-9-has-a-more-...

Regarding the connection, my point was I would prefer to have a small adapter because when I am sitting in bed with my notebook, the major stress is not from people running over the cables but rather the sag and pressure caused by the weight of the brick.

The magnetic connection is a nice feature but there should be more emphasis placed on reducing the size of the actual brick. However, given that it has a rating of 2/5 stars on the Apple store, that's not exactly a ringing endorsement. Look at all the user complaints about the product.

http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/A...

As far as battery life, it sure does not look pretty for the non Apple notebooks but the point is that both HP and Dell provide solutions that provide upto 20 hrs or more of battery life for a single product. If you are a professional user, adding an extra lb with a battery slice on a 17" product is not going to kill you.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 9:10:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Dell Mini has a better screen than the Apple professional notebooks
"Overall hue accuracy, in fact, is better than the late-2008 MacBook Pro 15 inch" - that's pretty far cry from your "better screen" statement. Hue accuracy may be better but the viewing angles, brightness, contrast and many other parameters may be worse. Without tests and graphs neither you nor I can say anything definitive.
quote:
major stress is not from people running over the cables but rather the sag and pressure caused by the weight of the brick
Why are you hanging your brick on the notebook power cable? Can't you just put it on the bed or on the floor? When I sit on the bed with Alienware the brick is on the floor beside the bed usually. No hanging and no strains on the cable, and on the notebook's power socket. Your setup with "hanging brick" is really weird.
quote:
HP and Dell provide solutions that provide upto 20 hrs or more of battery life for a single product
Same for MacBook. It's called "extra battery", sometimes it can be external one too.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 3:51:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What's the point of a magnetic connector if you have a gigantic brick v/s a small adapter that is the size of a pack of cards? And Dell and HP both have very good battery life on their products.


The point of the mag connector is so that it easily can pop off, when your kid, dog, etc trips on the cord.

It's cause PC users are smart enough to take care of the issue and slap a bitch, while Mac users need Apple to think for them.


RE: Apple bad call
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 4:31:11 PM , Rating: 2
The magnets are a genious idea actually. Pulling out the powercord on many laptops results in the metal connectors inside the laptop to slowly dislodge and eventually fall out resulting in the inability to charge your PC. My dad returned 4, yes 4 Dell laptops that sat on his desk 99% of the time because of this issue. Merely using his laptop on the bed a few times was enough to dislodge the connectors.

All laptops should have this feature...


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 5:12:58 PM , Rating: 2
Ya, that's why my Dell Inspiron 5000e (from 2000) doesn't have that issue. Or my Everex Stepnote (from 2007).

You know what's causing that issue. Him using his laptop on the bed. What he's doing is the same as putting a USB key into a port, then pushing up and down on it over and over again. Eventually you'll break the bitch.

It's user stupidity, that's what it is. Maybe he needs Apple to think for him.


RE: Apple bad call
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 5:32:01 PM , Rating: 2
No its not.. there are metal prangs that latch on most laptops when you plug it in. I should be able to use my laptop anywhere, and should not be limited to a desk. My dad is a careful guy, and he knew about the problem, it didnt require a tug to dislodge the prangs, merely sitting with it on your lap will putting even the tinyest bit of pressure on the power cord would result in this described issue. Its not user stupidity, assuming just because you have not had the problem that nobody else has IS..


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 6:06:21 PM , Rating: 2
The hell metal prangs are you talking about?

http://www.afkrotch.com/Random_Pics/Setup/DSC00214...

Majority of your laptop power connectors are like mine. The only way they really break is when the connector in the laptop breaks off the motherboard at the solder joints. That would be caused by wiggling the connection over multiple years or yanking the power cord over and over again.

I've dragged my laptop on multiple flights, use it on my lap in airports. Also short trips to Switzerland and used it on beds, since hostels tend to not give you a table in your room. Also use it in the car, charging via an inverter. I slap a usb gps on it for car trips.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 9:42:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I should be able to use my laptop anywhere, and should not be limited to a desk
This is exactly the reason why MacBook's cooling is better than standard WinPC notebook cooling. Read my another message here about bottom vents (WinPC) versus top vents (MacBook).


RE: Apple bad call
By Sazar on 3/6/2009 6:05:48 PM , Rating: 2
You do realize that the magsafe connector is more "spring-loaded" than "magnetic" right?

Due to the design of the magsafe, it is more prone to issues such as cable fraying (such as with my iPhone connector) and also with heating and melting issues at point of contact once the contacts elasticity begins to go.

The idea is good, the current implementation needs work. Is the traditional method better? Probably not. However the point was that the actual size of the brick itself needed work as the brick is one of the main reason you have pressure on the connecting point.


RE: Apple bad call
By kelmon on 3/7/2009 6:12:33 AM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry, are you honestly arguing against the MagSafe concept? Let me ask you a question: if you could buy one of two identical laptops and the only difference is that one has a normal power connection and the other has a MagSafe power connection, which would you select?


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/7/2009 8:26:11 AM , Rating: 2
I'd select the one that doesn't easily pop off. I don't have kids, animals, etc that are kicking my cables. Nor am I stupid enough to kick my own cables.

Some ppl prefer to have a cable that sits securely in and don't pop off under strain.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/7/2009 3:21:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Some ppl prefer to have a cable that sits securely in and don't pop off under strain
You mean the ppl who prefer to have their notebook falling and breaking apart instead of just the cable popping off? :))


RE: Apple bad call
By TomZ on 3/7/2009 9:42:59 PM , Rating: 2
That's a red herring. I've used a laptop daily for around 10 years, and I've never had any issue with the power connection.

First of all, how often does it come up when someone trips over a cable and pulls the laptop off a table or desk? Second, a standard DC barrel jack does not have a retention mechanism, so it would just detach from the laptop in most cases anyway. That's why they use a connector like that.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/8/2009 3:54:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've used a laptop daily for around 10 years, and I've never had any issue with the power connection
So if you drive your car daily for 10 years and never have a single accident, would you say safety belts and airbags are all red herring stuff too?


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/7/2009 11:47:09 PM , Rating: 2
No, just smart ppl who don't allow their laptops to get into those kinds of situations.

When you decide to plug your laptop in, you make sure it's out of the way of others. Sounds like common sense. I mean, it's hundreds of dollars, if not thousands of dollars for a laptop.

Anyone who has problems with ppl tripping over their cables and causing the laptop to drop are morons. Obviously a big enough problem on the Apple side of the house, that they needed to make a moron-proof connector.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/9/2009 1:11:38 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
smart ppl who don't allow their laptops to get into those kinds of situations
Aha, smart drivers who don't allow accidents to happen NEVER wear seat belts, right? :)))) *LOLzzzz*


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/9/2009 3:08:06 PM , Rating: 2
Here's something for ya.

Does a smart driver in a non-moving car, moved away from other drivers get hit?

Someone with a laptop plugged into the wall isn't going to be walking around a hallway for others to trip over their cord. No, they're plugged into a wall, stuffed away in a corner, multiple feet away from others.

Last I checked, it isn't very common for any driver sitting in their car, parked in their driveway, to get hit by another car.

Try analyzing your statements before posting them. It's feeling kind of ridiculous having to post common sense.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/9/2009 6:56:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Someone with a laptop plugged into the wall isn't going to be walking around a hallway for others to trip over their cord. No, they're plugged into a wall, stuffed away in a corner, multiple feet away from others.
People don't buy laptops to put them on desks and keep them permanently stuck on a same desk forever. People buy DESKTOP computers for that, not MOBILE ones. Hence I'm not buying your argument.


RE: Apple bad call
By afkrotch on 3/9/2009 9:42:43 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, because everyone walks around with their laptop in their arms, while they're plugged into a wall.

Ever been to an airport? There's always ppl at airports with laptops. Guess what they do? They find a location out of the way, plug it in, and sit there.

Go to a library, same thing. Coffee shop, same thing. Doesn't matter where you go, when someone plugs in their laptop, they are not mobile anymore.

By no means did I say they are leaving their laptop sitting on a desk at home, never moving it. Course a lot of users are doing that too. They just like being able to haul their computer from place to place easily. That's why they make DTR laptops. It's easier to move from your room to like a lan party. Just unplug the power and go. No need to unplug a keyboard, monitor, mouse, then try to haul them over.

I'd say maybe 0.01% of laptop owners are actually walking around with their laptop while it's plugged into a wall.

Sure as hell not a lot to argue about that. Do you walk around with your laptop plugged in the wall? I bet not. Regardless of where you're at. Home, office, airport, library, etc. When you're plugged into the wall, you sit down somewhere and keep ppl from tripping over your cord.


RE: Apple bad call
By Pirks on 3/9/2009 10:22:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
When you're plugged into the wall, you sit down somewhere and keep ppl from tripping over your cord.
And when you drive a car you keep other people/cars from running into you, and you keep your car from running into other people/obstacles/cars/etc as well. Does it make safety belts unnecessary?


RE: Apple bad call
By Justin Time on 3/7/2009 12:43:39 AM , Rating: 2
The HP firmware fix (which others followed) was to INCREASE the fan speed and try to cool the chip.

The bottom line however, is that the chips are all fataly flawed, and it's just a matter of when, not if, they will fail.

The aim of the "fix" is to make the chip last long enough to fail outside the warranty period, thereby getting both the OEM and Nvidia off the hook legally, if not ethically.


RE: Apple bad call
By Chadder007 on 3/6/2009 9:26:03 PM , Rating: 2
Same here, I was thinking Why the hell are they going with all NVidia chipsets when they have had all of these problems with the GPUs.


Pirks
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 10:41:59 AM , Rating: 3
Come on Pirks - where are you - you need to get out ahead of these rumors and "set the record straight"!




RE: Pirks
By on 3/6/2009 11:27:24 AM , Rating: 2
I am sure his fanatical ass will show up soon enough with more babble about "blah blah apple is the best, PC is the worst... blah blah blah"


RE: Pirks
By sprockkets on 3/6/2009 11:38:08 AM , Rating: 5
He can't. He can't read the screen on his Mac anymore.


RE: Pirks
By on 3/6/2009 11:46:48 AM , Rating: 2
RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 1:33:28 PM , Rating: 1
No, I can read my Alienware screen alright, thank you, but I just don't want to bash nVidia again, what's the point?

Yeah, they do crappy chips and I was burnt once when my Gateway P-173FX WinPC notebook with nVidia GPU started overheating and shutting itself down the day I brought it brand new from the store. GPU reaches 96 degrees Celsius when I run games and 3 minutes in the game it's dead, have to cycle power to reboot it. I'm just like all the crowd here, no point to stick out and yell at nVidia louder than others.

Everyone knows about that, smart people just tend to buy ATI based mobile GPUs, like one on my Alienware. Bashing nVidia is just repeating what everyone here says, so, if you excuse me... :)


RE: Pirks
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 2:06:32 PM , Rating: 3
Oh my, you mean you're only an Apple wannabe? Wow, it's worse than I thought!


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 3:26:44 PM , Rating: 1
You're dumber than I thought too, Tom. I work on a Power Mac G5 (beside my second workstation - Dell Precision 690), why do I need more Apple hardware? Stop lying already, will ya? ;-)


RE: Pirks
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 3:38:57 PM , Rating: 2
Oh dear god, do ppl on Dailytech not build their own machines? I can understand the laptop. Not like we have a way to build one, but a desktop.

I always make time to build my own comp. At least then I know I get high quality parts and not pieces of trash from an OEM.


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 3:48:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
do ppl on Dailytech not build their own machines?
Do you mean home machines or business/corporate ones?


RE: Pirks
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 3:55:14 PM , Rating: 2
I mean home machines. Majority of everyone has no choice for their business/corporate one. Lest you are part of the IT section. Even then they are limited to having to purchase an OEM machine, for the hardware support warranty.

Few times do you get away with being able to build your own machine in the business/corporate world.


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 4:00:11 PM , Rating: 2
I meant my business machines above (Power Mac and Dell Precision), not the home ones.


RE: Pirks
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 4:35:22 PM , Rating: 2
He means he can't believe you paid for an alienware PC.. the biggest known ripoff in the mainstream the PC market..

It all starts to make sense, buying high margin products get you off...


RE: Pirks
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 5:16:34 PM , Rating: 2
lol. Yes, Alienware is a huge ripoff. Much like Falcon NW or VoodooPC (when they were seperate from HP).

Well, at least Alienware updates their case, while Falcon NW has been using the same case for the past like 8 years.


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 5:40:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
he can't believe you paid for an alienware PC
Dude, that M17 was the cheapest decent high end non-crap-like-gateway-quality gaming notebook on the Canadian market at the time. You just proved yourself incapable of understanding PC hardware market prices in your own country :P


RE: Pirks
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 7:54:22 PM , Rating: 2
Alienware and cheapest has never gone together. Ever.


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 10:34:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Alienware and cheapest has never gone together.
You're just like omnicronx :)) You have no clue about gamebook market prices and specs.


RE: Pirks
By afkrotch on 3/7/2009 12:18:28 AM , Rating: 2
Okay, I setup an Alienware and HP to be near the same price. Now you tell me, which would be the better deal.

Alienware Area-51 m15x
15.4" lcd (1400x900)
2.4 ghz C2D
512 meg Geforce 8700GT
4 gig DDR-667
320 gb 7200 rpm hdd
8x DVD-RW
Wireless N card
Illuminated keyboard
Windows Vista Home Premium

Cost - $1,624.00

HP HDX18t
18.4" LCD (1920x1080)
2.53 ghz C2D
512 meg Geforce 9600GT
4 gig DDR2 (doesn't tell me the speed)
320 gb 5400rpm hdd
Blu-ray ROM / DVD-RW
Wireless N
Webcam
Fingerprint Reader
Windows Vista Ultimate

Cost - $1,659.99


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/7/2009 2:09:28 AM , Rating: 2
Try M17 instead of m15x


RE: Pirks
By afkrotch on 3/7/2009 8:49:00 AM , Rating: 2
Okay.

Alienware M17

17" LCD (1440x900)
2.53 ghz C2D
512 mb ATI Radeon HD3870
2 GB DDR3-1066
160gb hdd
8x DVD-RW
Wireless b/g
Windows Vista Home Premium

Cost - $1,649.00

So in other words, for near the same price, you get a worse screen, same proc, faster memory (but less off it), smaller hard drive, no blu-ray, crappier wireless, and crappier Windows. What you do it. A better video card.

Hell, I'd rather get a Dell Studio XPS 16 over either of the Alienwares. Same company, but more value from the Dell side.


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/7/2009 2:48:59 PM , Rating: 2
See how screen resolution is lower AND the GPU is more powerful on the Aleinware? Do you understand the implication of this for games? If not, we have nothing to talk about, because you don't undrestand what hardware is needed to run heavy games like Clear Sky on a gamebook.

Your Toshiba is not a gamebook, it's a Blue Ray watching machine with some casual gaming capacity. I don't need such a machine and this is why I went for Alienware because for GAMES and ONLY GAMES nothing beats Alienware M17 for the same price.

I told you guys multiple times that I needed a GAMING notebook, not some BR playback box. You WinPC worshippers are so stupid, you can't even get hold of YOUR OWN hardware market and pricing. You buy the BR playback machines when you need _gaming_ machines. That's it. You're dumb beyond repair, sorry.


RE: Pirks
By afkrotch on 3/9/2009 3:25:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
See how screen resolution is lower AND the GPU is more powerful on the Aleinware? Do you understand the implication of this for games? If not, we have nothing to talk about, because you don't undrestand what hardware is needed to run heavy games like Clear Sky on a gamebook.


Uhhh...you do know that max resolution does not mean "only" resolution. The Toshiba can also drop down to 1440x900.

The Alienware's vidcard is slightly better than the one on the HP. Not by much though. Either way, they'd both suck at playing Clear Sky at 1440x900 at high settings. You'd more than likely have low/medium settings to get it to play with reasonable framerates.

quote:
Your Toshiba is not a gamebook, it's a Blue Ray watching machine with some casual gaming capacity. I don't need such a machine and this is why I went for Alienware because for GAMES and ONLY GAMES nothing beats Alienware M17 for the same price.


It's an HP, not Toshiba. Both systems will play games at about the same settings. Difference is you get more with the HP over the Alienware.

quote:
I told you guys multiple times that I needed a GAMING notebook, not some BR playback box. You WinPC worshippers are so stupid, you can't even get hold of YOUR OWN hardware market and pricing. You buy the BR playback machines when you need _gaming_ machines. That's it. You're dumb beyond repair, sorry.


Already showed you the Alienware and HP, which can both game. The Alienware might get a few more fps, but the vidcards suck on both either way.

Now the HP can also play blu-ray, have higher resolution, more hdd space, more memory, etc.

Let's bold it for ya.

For the same price, you get more features on the HP over Alienware, while having comparable gaming performance.


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/9/2009 7:06:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The Toshiba can also drop down to 1440x900
Nah, that'll look worse than native 1440x900 LCD resolution. I don't get it why buy a notebook which you know you'll force into low resolution mode because of a lousy non-gaming grade GPU on it. Better to buy a faster GPU and a lower res/bigger LCD when THE ONLY thing you care about is mobile gaming.
quote:
Difference is you get more with the HP over the Alienware
Difference is I don't need a single thing of all the extra drap HP loads its HDX with. I'll never need Blu Ray, will not need Wireless N either, will not need mobile 1080p gaming either - so why buy a notebook loaded with features you know you'll never need?? Will you buy a huge 18-wheel truck when all you need is a small crossover SUV or station wagon?
quote:
For the same price, you get more features on the HP over Alienware
I'd have bought HP if I had ever needed these "extra features". It's really REALLY easy, man - I pay attention just to features I WANT on my computer, and I ignore features I don't care about. No amount of useless drap like Blu Ray will force me to buy an inferior GPU for the same price, got it? You'd do ABSOLUTELY the same if you were in my shoes.


RE: Pirks
By sprockkets on 3/6/2009 2:10:10 PM , Rating: 2
that is true, he does have none mac hardware.

Eh, maybe it isn't the hardware at all and those Macbook Pro users should try installing Vista on their machines and see how well it runs then, IF Apple even supplies the right nVidia driver for it...


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 3:29:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
maybe it isn't the hardware
Judging by my bad experience with overheating nVidia GPUs on WinPC notebooks - it is hardware. nVidia hardware to be exact.


RE: Pirks
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 4:21:34 PM , Rating: 2
It doesn't matter if it is hardware or software, because at the end of the day, it's Apple's fault and problem to deal with, since they designed the product.


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 4:37:13 PM , Rating: 2
I know, that's why I don't bash Apple here, since it's the same for other PC makers. I suffered from overheating nVidia GPU already, on my Gateway notebook, so why bash all the Gateways, Apples, Dells and others? Looks like nVidia is the root cause of this problem.

Say, when Microsoft installs Sync in your Ford and one day Sync crashes and your car hits a tree or something because of that - will you blame Ford or Microsoft for that?

Think about it :P


RE: Pirks
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 4:42:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Say, when Microsoft installs Sync in your Ford and one day Sync crashes and your car hits a tree or something because of that - will you blame Ford or Microsoft for that?
How is Sync going to cause your car to hit a tree? Now you're being ridiculous.


RE: Pirks
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 4:47:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Say, when Microsoft installs Sync in your Ford and one day Sync crashes and your car hits a tree or something because of that - will you blame Ford or Microsoft for that?
Obviously Ford.. (i.e Apple).. not too sure what you point is here.. makes me wonder if the hamster wheel in your head is still spinning..


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 5:43:51 PM , Rating: 2
Why Ford if the car failure was caused by Microsoft designed susbsystem?


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 5:48:43 PM , Rating: 2
"subsystem", sorry


RE: Pirks
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 5:18:28 PM , Rating: 2
Think you misread him.

quote:
because at the end of the day, it's Apple's fault


RE: Pirks
By HaB1971 on 3/6/2009 2:20:08 PM , Rating: 2
While the Apple doesn't fall far from the tree it can be said that the Troll doesn't fall far from the apple...

You invoked the name and the Troll appears to defend " The Lord, Our Jobs " honor.

Let the down rating and pointless and senseless arguing begin.

You can not convince it and it can not convince you, but this kind of baiting is the best sport in the world.


RE: Pirks
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 6:59:30 PM , Rating: 2
It gives me something to do at work.


RE: Pirks
By SavagePotato on 3/6/2009 6:50:30 PM , Rating: 1
Seeing as he just made an ass out of himself as usual with a plethora of -1 posts filled with inane stupidity that only his backward brain could conceive as reality, I would say he is right on time.

Keep telling yourself apple is magic pirks just like those mushrooms you eat every morning to be as batshit crazy as you are.


RE: Pirks
By Pirks on 3/6/2009 7:38:34 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
apple is magic
Are you really sure about that, idiot? :-)


Definitely Nvidia
By on 3/6/2009 10:09:39 AM , Rating: 2
They've had such a great track record in the past. Not that Apple's perfect, mind you- it just seems more likely Nvidia screwed this one up




RE: Definitely Nvidia
By Spivonious on 3/6/2009 10:11:41 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, but Apple is responsible for testing their products before release. If it turns out to be a widespread problem, expect the public opinion of Apple to go down.


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By kelmon on 3/6/2009 10:22:25 AM , Rating: 2
OK, fair point, QA should have picked this issue up if, as you say, it's a widespread issue. Ultimately, Apple will bare the brunt of consumer displeasure for this issue but I guess it also will make them less likely to buy from nVidia in the future unless they can get their house into order.


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By kelmon on 3/6/2009 10:16:35 AM , Rating: 2
Indeed, aside from the decision to actually use the chips in the laptops I find it hard to believe that anything Apple did would contribute to this issue.

Still, I have to wonder at the slightly snide comment at the end of the article. Of course these laptops can be returned and exchanged - most probably won't even be outside the 2-week return period and anything else will be fixed under warranty.

It's a shame but this is another reason why you shouldn't be an early adopter. Let someone else kick the tires before you drive...


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 11:03:11 AM , Rating: 2
I'd say it's all Apple. 9600m are not having issues in a multitude of other laptops. Why? They don't try to cram it into a ultra-thin laptop with inadequate cooling.

How the hell do you think you'll be able to cram a dedicated gpu into a notebook designed around an integrated one.

It's clearly a design flaw on Apple's end. Not to mention QA issues.


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By kelmon on 3/6/2009 11:45:44 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
They don't try to cram it into a ultra-thin laptop with inadequate cooling.


Sure, that could be the explanation. Alternatively, perhaps nVidia underestimated the degree of cooling required...

I agree that QA should have picked it up (that it didn't may suggest that this issue is not widespread, which really wouldn't surprise me) but beyond that I think you're jumping to conclusions based on assumption.


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 12:20:17 PM , Rating: 2
Pretty much any processor company overestimates the heat outputted by their processors. They give you the numbers and let you figure it out what you need for cooling. I think it's more of Apple underestimating the cooling they required for it or simply tossed out such suggestions to keep their Macbook Pro as slim as possible. Sacrifice quality for looks.

I mean, do you see any other 9600m laptops with widespread cooling issues? If Nvidia underestimated, think this would be a much larger problem than just the latest Macbook Pro.

Course we all could be completely wrong and it's the memory chips for the gpu that are overheating.

Either way, a nice google search for "9600m problems Apple" comes back with 657,000 results. I'm gonna assume it's pretty widespread.


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By TomZ on 3/6/2009 11:16:50 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Indeed, aside from the decision to actually use the chips in the laptops I find it hard to believe that anything Apple did would contribute to this issue.
Apple is responsible for the PCB design and the overall product design, and for making everything work and ensuring the design is well-tested. They don't get to pass the buck to their component vendors when something goes wrong.


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 11:22:08 AM , Rating: 2
They chose a broken product, Nvidia does not assemble Apple computers, so I don't see why you would think that Apple is not partly at fault here. It should have never passed quality assurance testing in the first place. If this is an overheating issue, it would have been as simple as leaving the laptop on for a few hours.


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By afkrotch on 3/6/2009 11:36:19 AM , Rating: 2
They didn't choose a broken product. Works fine. What doesn't work fine is the cooling solution that Apple decided to use.

Anyone who's ever dealt with an overheating video card knows that the symptoms the Macbook is having is from such an event.

This is clearly out of Nvidia's hands. They sold the gpu to Apple and it is was up to Apple to implement it. In this case, they failed.


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 12:07:07 PM , Rating: 2
The Nvidia GPUS in question are known to have issues, so its not just Apples fault here, but it wouldnt surprise me one bit if Apple coupled these bad chips with an inadequate cooling solution.

quote:
This is clearly out of Nvidia's hands. They sold the gpu to Apple and it is was up to Apple to implement it. In this case, they failed.
Both are to blame, if Nvidia sold defective products, Apple will have a case against them, and as you said Apple did not correctly test their products, so they are also to blame.


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By monomer on 3/6/2009 11:51:28 AM , Rating: 2
Here's a link to Apple's original support comment regarding failing NVIDIa cpu's:

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2377

The problem has been stated to be a "Packaging Defect" with the 8600M GPUs. The problem is with the bumps that attach the pins to the GPU. After cyclic thermal loading, a bump is liable to crack, leading to graphics corruption. Just leaving the computer on won't cause the problem; it occurs after loading than idling the GPU many times.

NVIDIA admitted that there was a problem with the bumps, but wouldn't say which GPUs were affected. Independent testing by The Inquirer (yeah, I know, not a great source, but incredibly entertaining) shows that at least some of the 9600M GPUs were built with the defective bumps as well.

http://www.theinquirer.net/inquirer/news/921/10499...


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 11:55:25 AM , Rating: 2
And I suppose Nvidia forced Apple to put these known defective GPU's in the laptops? I fully understand the underlying issues is probably Nvidias fault, but releasing a product without proper testing is the manufacturers fault.

Just as I blame Microsoft for using faulty DVD-ROM drives in their 360's, they didnt make them, but it should have never past the testing phase thus making it their fault.


RE: Definitely Nvidia
By strikeback03 on 3/6/2009 10:40:25 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe, but Apple does have an aversion to cooling their laptops properly (as exhaust ports are apparently not pretty enough). Could be the video card is overheating because the cooling system can't keep up with the types of things users are not supposed to do but do anyway, such as setting the laptop on a bed or thick carpet.


Let the blame games begin
By rudy on 3/6/2009 10:14:38 AM , Rating: 3
Each company points fingers at the other.




RE: Let the blame games begin
By bupkus on 3/6/2009 10:49:12 AM , Rating: 2
Placing blame is the only recourse when the faulting party refuses to accept responsibility.
Issues may seem like a "blame game" to spin doctors (not suggesting you) and outside observers (like me) but it looks like another example of failure of personal character to stand up and say, "yes, our mistake, but we'll fix it." Didn't there used to be folklore about honesty? I seem to recall a story about George Washington and a freakin' cherry tree.


RE: Let the blame games begin
By Radnor on 3/6/2009 10:52:53 AM , Rating: 2
The funniest thing it is the price of the laptop. They all break, one or another, but at this price....

... you really need to have good products.


RE: Let the blame games begin
By omnicronx on 3/6/2009 11:19:19 AM , Rating: 4
Nah, Apple will just call it a feature and call it a day.

*its not distortion, its the new iArtifact app and it is available for download now!*


RE: Let the blame games begin
By Iger on 3/6/2009 11:34:42 AM , Rating: 2
"iArtifact is required to start MacBook", of course.


I don't care who's at fault
By chmilz on 3/6/2009 10:56:51 AM , Rating: 2
It just doesn't work. Sorry Apple.




By piroroadkill on 3/6/2009 12:17:11 PM , Rating: 2
Surely that should be:- "It doesn't 'just work'"

(Had to take the jab at Apple)


Who's fault?
By ZachDontScare on 3/6/2009 2:01:36 PM , Rating: 3
We've been lectured over the years that one of the benefits of Macs is that all the hardware and software is provided by a single vendor, Apple. And because of this, everything works perfectly together. Why, Macs even run Windows better, we've been told, because they use the best parts.

So the fault is obviously Apple's. They could have chosen a different GPU. Since, after the all, the point of a Mac is to have Apple make that decision for you.




If it's the chip package
By piroroadkill on 3/6/2009 10:08:57 AM , Rating: 2
Then it's no big surprise




lol
By Coca Cola on 3/6/2009 3:43:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
random green lines and artifacts on their displays


I guess apple isn't kidding when they say they have "the world's greenest family of notebooks".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqJl6huz4y0&feature...




Defficient in QA
By SimpleLance on 3/6/2009 10:08:16 PM , Rating: 2
This is Apple's fault. They did not do a good job of testing the product.

Even if Nvidia is indeed faulty, Apple would have caught that in testing.

There is no point in blaming Nvidia here. Its up to Apple to deal with them.

Obviously, the extra cost that you pay for Apple products don't go to quality assurance. I hope it goes to something else other than just profits.




To all Apple Fanboys
By seraphim1982 on 3/9/2009 11:14:42 AM , Rating: 2
We all know that Apple FANBOYS, believe they are better than pc'ers....when they are the d*mbf*cks who are buying Apple. Whoever says Apples are cheaper, which a lot have posted are the dumbest fanboys ever. Since Apple moved to Intel THERE IS NO difference in internal base parts between APPLE, HP, ACER, ASUS... etc. they all use the same backbone MB chipset, cpu, ram type etc.
THE ONLY difference is chasis and OS. You can buy an Acer laptop and load it with OSX and it'll be a apple.
Why the f*ck would PSYSTAR be getting sued by apple so bad. Because if they avg APPLE fanboy found out they could get an apple pc at like 1/2-2/3rds of the cost from buying from apple, apple lose sh*itloads of money. DUHHHHHHHHH
The only trouble is finding the mac drivers for NON-standard apple parts, ie. wireless card, input device (tracking pad), etc etc.

RANT DONE




"If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion." -- Scientology founder L. Ron. Hubbard











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