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According to Autoblog, 81% of the Jetta Sportwagens sold in June were diesel TDI models. The Jetta Sportwagen TDI is rated at 30 mpg city, 41 mpg highway.
Financial woes and a negative stigma of diesel is causing some automakers to rethink plans

Nine diesel-powered cars expected to be released next year have been pushed back as companies suffer continued financial problems and reconsider vehicle fuel economy.

As Toyota and Honda rethink using diesel in favor of other clean technology, Chrysler and General Motors have growing money problems, and can't afford to develop further diesel technology. Despite the fact that diesels can achieve 20 to 30 percent better fuel efficiency than traditional gasoline engines, the current economic climate doesn’t bode well for the price premium that is often thousands of dollars.

Despite some automakers trimming back diesel plans, Volkswagen, Mercedes-Benz, BMW and Audi continue to launch new diesel-powered vehicles to U.S. consumers.  In fact, Volkswagen recently sold 5,072 diesel-powered vehicles in the United States last month -- 26 percent of total vehicle sales for the month.

"Volkswagen of America is encouraged by the momentum of our clean diesel TDI sales," Volkswagen of America COO Mark Barnes said in a statement.  "It appears that U.S. consumers are starting to realize the many benefits of today's clean diesels--vehicles that attain more than 30 percent better fuel economy while emitting 25 percent less greenhouse gas emission, all without sacrificing driving dynamics."

European nations routinely tax gasoline to offer incentives for shoppers to purchase diesel vehicles, but the same cannot be said for car buyers in North America. 

It's also possible the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, when calculating fuel economy and carbon dioxide standards, offer a bias more towards gasoline-electric hybrids over diesel engines.

"Diesel vehicles that perform very well at high-load and high-speed driving -- where most of America's fuel is used in the real world -- are penalized," according to Martec Group analyst Kevin McMahon.  "Meanwhile, vehicles that perform very well in stop-and-go driving, like hybrids, are overrewarded."

The EPA eventually modified how it creates "window sticker" fuel efficiency ratings, offering numbers more realistic to U.S. driving patterns.

There is speculation that Toyota elected to push back diesel-powered vehicle development because of the somewhat negative stigma of diesel vehicles, especially among U.S. and Japanese shoppers.   

"One of the obstacles of the diesel is the aged perception that the diesel is smoky and stinky," according to Toyota spokesperson Curt McAllister.  "It's hard to change the mind-set of consumers.  Hybrid technology has such a clean halo to it."

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People can be so dumb.
By Vim on 7/2/2009 9:15:45 AM , Rating: 5
I have a 2008 Jetta TDI. The car is simply amazing and oh so efficient.

And like the Volkswagen America COO said: "It appears that U.S. consumers are starting to realize the many benefits of today's clean diesels--vehicles that attain more than 30 percent better fuel economy while emitting 25 percent less greenhouse gas emission, all without sacrificing driving dynamics ."

Meaning the cars are hella fun to drive, unlike these silly insights and prius's.

We're considering getting a 2nd one actually; hatchback or normal, and are even considering the Toureg 2 TDI.

People need to open their eyes and minds. Diesel is what is up, for now.




RE: People can be so dumb.
By rudy on 7/2/2009 10:45:07 AM , Rating: 5
Americans have always known about deisel and the proponent have always made the same arguements. They have been available in different car models for as long as I have been alive.

The problem is that so far they have not panned out, usually the car cost more to buy the engine is about twice as much, however it last about twice as long, it gets a little better efficiency which depends on if that point in time deisel is more or less expensive then gasoline. Maintanence and repairs are also 2-3x the cost. So at the end of the day do you really gain anything? That is the main concern I have and why I recently chose a gasoline powered van over a deisel one. Despite what proponents say the winner is not clear.

Lets say that instead of your engine lasting 250k miles it lasts 500k, that still does not make any thing else in your car last longer by the time you hit 250K you are probably 5 to 10 years into owning the car and at that point its old and you want a new one, and many other parts are starting to break down, if nothing else rust is overtaking the vehicle.

If car companies want to push deisel in the US they need to find ways to make it cheaper to produce and service the engines. Personally I think they view it more as an upsell they can get a higher profit on right now so they have no incentive to lower the costs. And that is the real problem.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Hare on 7/2/2009 11:16:07 AM , Rating: 3
I think many americans remember the old stinky and noisy diesels and that impression has sticked to many. One problem has been that the US diesel quality has been crap and car manufacturers couldn't really release any good diesels to the market. Pump injection turbo diesels or common rail diesels wouldn't have survived very long.

I personally like diesels just for the torque.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Samus on 7/2/2009 4:51:33 PM , Rating: 3
I also thought negatively of deisels until my buddy bought a 2002 Golf TDI. It's a similar car to what I drive (a Focus SVT, 4 door hatchback and all) except his gets double the fuel economy. Mine is undoubtedly faster, but he's changed the fuel program, injector nozzles and some other little stuff and its not only MORE efficient (50MPG highway) but similar in performance as well.

Deisels are more maintenance as well. Timing belts MUST be changed on time as there is no such thing as a non-interference engine. You need to change the fuel filter regularely, glow plugs get a lot of abuse if you crank before they're warm and they're $50 each. The fuel system needs to be cleaned quite often as well. However, they're more reliable than unleaded engines, often reaching many hundred thousand miles, and they produce a ton of torque.

Additionally, they rev low, and are therefore very quiet, way more quiet than an unleaded 4-cylinder. I wish Ford would bring the deisel motors from the UK over here for the Focus.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By ggordonliddy on 7/4/2009 3:16:14 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
I also thought negatively of deisels


WTF are "deisels"?


RE: People can be so dumb.
By bohhad on 7/2/2009 11:41:58 PM , Rating: 2
i don't necessarily think american diesel has been crap, it's just been designed for trucks, and it seems that crowd likes them noisy


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Spuke on 7/2/2009 11:48:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
i don't necessarily think american diesel has been crap, it's just been designed for trucks, and it seems that crowd likes them noisy
Yes they do! Although the new trucks are WAY quieter.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Spivonious on 7/2/2009 11:28:45 AM , Rating: 2
250k in 5-10 years?!? Holy crap how much are you driving? At my current rate it would take me almost 20 years to reach that mark.

My Focus is just about 7 years old. No parts are breaking down, rust is not overtaking the vehicle.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By rudy on 7/2/2009 11:51:38 AM , Rating: 3
Well I use my car for work, so ya if you drive less then I do as many Americans do then you have even less of a reason to buy a diesel. Which is the point, Americans and the car companies are not just stupid idiots who have no idea what they are doing believe it or not we do actually think about our decisions.

Now if I was fedex or UPS and my drivers were driving all day every day then I would look at diesel well guess what they do and that is what they purchase and they do so from mostly US car makers.

But for everyone else their engine is most likely to last as long as all the other components in the car their is no point in making an engine last 500k miles when the transmission and power windows will be out and you will be falling through the rusted out floor.

So if we want to see wide spread diesel adoption we need at least 1 of 3 things to happen. Highly increased gas prices, even if diesel goes up too, if your yearly feul bill goes up to 3000$ then 30% of that will pay off that diesel engine faster. 2 bring maintance down to gas engine prices, or 3 make the engines much cheaper to produce like gas engines. Of course 2 or 3 changes would be better for diesel. In Europe due to taxes gas is higher priced so diesel is more popular. It's not complicated people it all comes down to money.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Lord 666 on 7/2/2009 11:43:18 AM , Rating: 5
First thing, Joe and Jane Six Pack are morons. They believe anything seen on TV along with hype about hybrids. Now put hybrids in your example; instead of the motor lasting 500,000, the batteries have to be swapped out. The six packs don't think about that.

About car manufacturers thinking diesel is an upsell, VW doesn't. You cannot get an 09 TDI Jetta with leather or 09 TDI Toureg with memory seats. There were only 2 cars in the nation (Oct 2006) that had all the options I wanted in my 06 TDI Jetta.. Including leather (package 2), rear side airbags, TPMS, and navigation with the car being black on black.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Spuke on 7/2/2009 1:14:54 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
VW doesn't. You cannot get an 09 TDI Jetta with leather or 09 TDI Toureg with memory seats.
I understand what you're saying would like to expand on this. Most people don't like to order cars, they like to buy from what's on the lot. Unfortunately, unless a ton of people spec certain options, dealerships will not carry cars with those options. It's a money loser for them.

Also, in the US, people buy fuel efficient cars because they either don't want to pay a lot of money for gas or can't afford the cost of high gas prices. So buying a $30k car to save a $20 a week on gas is not something people normally do. So you'll see lower optioned cars on lots at dealers because those sell. That makes it difficult for those that DO want some luxury with their economy to get the cars they want. My two cents.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Jimbo1234 on 7/2/2009 2:38:23 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Lets say that instead of your engine lasting 250k miles it lasts 500k, that still does not make any thing else in your car last longer by the time you hit 250K you are probably 5 to 10 years into owning the car and at that point its old and you want a new one, and many other parts are starting to break down, if nothing else rust is overtaking the vehicle.


You drive exceedingly more than the average person with those kind of figures. And a car rusting in 5 to 10 years? What planet are you on? My Audi A4 is 8 years old with 0 rust in Wisconsin. It's corrosion warranty is 12 years, unlimited miles. All cars made in this millenium use a conversion coating / e-coating before the paint is applied. There is no way it's going to rust unless you have not taken care of sratches down to the metal. Do some research before making a post.

Oh, and as far as parts breaking down? Let's see, at 120,000 miles, I have had a headlight washer pump break, needed to replace 2 rear wheel bearings (winter potholes), and replaced the typical wear items: brakes and tires. My wife even went though a big enough pothole which was covered underwater, trashing a front rim, but the car didn't even need as much as an alignment. Oh, and this is supposed to be an unreliable German car.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Spuke on 7/2/2009 3:20:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Oh, and this is supposed to be an unreliable German car.
Even the sun shines on a dogs ass some days.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Hare on 7/2/2009 3:51:53 PM , Rating: 3
Modern cars do rust (manufacturers save expenses, who would have thought). Less than 10y old Mercedes Benzes had rust problems before they were fixed and the last generation Mazdas also have big issues. There are lots of examples. Rust is a real concern specially in colder countries where salt is used to to melt ice of the streets and everyone knows what water and salt does to metal (that's why people get antirust coatings on their wheel arches and under the car).

It's true that most cars have coating but it can only do so much. The reason why Audi is one of the best cars when it comes to rust is because the entire car is coated with zinc (Zinc is also used in boats to prevent rust).


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Jimbo1234 on 7/3/2009 3:44:12 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, all the sheetmetal is galvanized, but BMW also offers the same corrosion warranty. It's not just Audi. Cars do not rust like they used to.

I have first hand knowledge of modern automotive paints, etc. I worked with out paint suppliers when I was working for a mining truck OEM to reduce corrosion on trucks that mined salt.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Keeir on 7/2/2009 9:25:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Oh, and this is supposed to be an unreliable German car.


Even German cars are "reliable" in that typically the have few major flaws that prevent operation. However, their rates are often double the compedition... like 2% is double 1%.

However, that said, if you happen to have the Turbo 4, you probably will develop a large amount of oil sludge in your near future.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Jimbo1234 on 7/3/2009 3:41:52 PM , Rating: 2
No turbo 4. I have the 2.8 V6. I love when people whine about their turbos blowing. Those people are the ones who do not run it stock, but rather chipped to tyr to get the HP and torque of the 2.8 out of the 1.8T.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Mr772 on 7/2/2009 11:02:41 AM , Rating: 2
I have a 2009 TDI Jetta Sport Wagen and I have to agree that its a blast to drive and I'm averaging 50 mpg highway at 75 mph. When you put 25k or more miles on a car per year you can't beat the TDI engine when it comes to performance and efficiency. I got a $1,300 tax credit from uncle same last year on the TDI purchase which almost offset the added price for the diesel engine.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Lord 666 on 7/2/2009 11:31:31 AM , Rating: 2
We own a 2006 Jetta TDI and 70,000 on the clock. We plan to keep it a very long time. My wife and I drove the 09 Toureg TDI and were impressed, but would like the 3rd row seating in the Q7. However, check out used V10 Toureg's that sell for about 35,000. Service is a bit higher since an oil change requires 14 quarts.

The thing to remember about VW and diesels; they have the perfect blend of driving dynamics and economy. Other manufacturers messed up (Chrysler) and didn't tune to economy. Other than VW or MB, the only other company I trust to nail their design on the first US attempt is Honda. The difference in economy in the CRV comparing diesel versus petrol is amazing and a no brainer.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By TheFace on 7/2/2009 12:08:09 PM , Rating: 2
Just so you know...

http://www.motherjones.com/blue-marble/2008/07/wha...

bottom of the list is the Toureg TDI. Most polluting vehicle on the road.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By Keeir on 7/2/2009 1:21:09 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
bottom of the list is the Toureg TDI. Most polluting vehicle on the road.


#1. About a Toureq that is no Longer Sold. If we are counting cars in the used market for today's purchases

http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/detailedchart.pdf

Pretty much all cars sold before 2004 could have similar pollution profiles to the 2007/8 Toureg, not that they do, but they would qualify at some of the lowest measurable levels in thier time period. All in all, its fairly amazing that from 1990 to 2000 to 2008, we have reduced the level of pollution from autos to mere fractions of the start. The 2007/8 Toureg would have had the highest score possible in pollution in 1993, and today would not be eligible for sale.

#2. That puts an unreasonable wieght to "Air Pollution Score". Check out
http://www.epa.gov/greenvehicles/summarychart.pdf

for how the score is issued. There are list of chemicals used to determine the score, and ANY exceedence leads to a lower score. I say this is unreasonable because the scale is not linear, nor is it inclusive. A car with a better score could put out more total pollution but not exceed in a single category in comparison to a car with a lower score.

Furthermore, the 2007 and earlier Toureg's were graded based on the older poor quality fuel that could be sold in the United States. These would acchieve better rankings if using the new Low Sulfur fuel.

Overall, Diesel has always been about trade-offs. More PM and NOx but less C02. (Toureg gets 25% better fuel economy and thus 20% less CO2 emissions or so than most in its class) US and especially California have always been death on people


RE: People can be so dumb.
By FITCamaro on 7/2/2009 12:39:38 PM , Rating: 3
I'm with you man. I fully support a change over to diesel. Sure peak horsepower isn't as high as gasoline engines but you get gobs of torque in return. And better fuel efficiency as well. Plus you can adjust the boost to get better or worse mpg as you please with a boost controller. Hell on trucks you just need a plugin tuner.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By strikeback03 on 7/2/09, Rating: -1
RE: People can be so dumb.
By FITCamaro on 7/2/2009 6:06:49 PM , Rating: 3
How about when a gasoline engine can put down 500+ pound feet of torque at 1000 rpm.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By phantom505 on 7/3/2009 4:58:34 AM , Rating: 3
As if RPM has something to do with anything. Just means your engine spins faster, doesn't mean it's putting any meaningful amount of power.

In order to tune for 5.6k+ RPM means really tuning the engine to suck below that. Sure valve timing helps but it only goes so far.

So how often can you break 6k on a surface street?


RE: People can be so dumb.
By rbfowler9lfc on 7/4/2009 11:10:23 AM , Rating: 3
The faster you spin, more energy you are wasting on heat exchanged with environment, mainly due to friction. If one engine can provide the same torque output of another engine but with a lower rotational speed, this slower one is clearly more efficient.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By marvdmartian on 7/2/2009 2:59:00 PM , Rating: 2
While I can agree that performance (acceleration) is probably better with a turbo diesel than with a hybrid, at the same mileage numbers, there's one thing that keeps me from taking the plunge.
The last few years, when gas prices have yo-yo'd (especially last year, when they skyrocketed), diesel prices were upwards of $1 more per gallon than regular gasoline.

So why shouldn't I assume that won't happen again? And then the miles per dollar of the turbo diesel will no longer match up to that of the hybrid, will it? If I'm going to choose between two vehicles with similar mileage numbers, I'm far more likely to go with the one that's going to consistantly give me lower fuel cost per gallon. And while, historically, that's been diesel, in the recent past it's been gasoline.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By wolrah on 7/6/2009 6:00:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The last few years, when gas prices have yo-yo'd (especially last year, when they skyrocketed), diesel prices were upwards of $1 more per gallon than regular gasoline.


While very few outside of the oil companies know the real causes of the various fuel price fluctuations, my position on diesel being more expensive in recent years is that at least in the US diesel demand is for the most part inelastic. The vast majority of diesel consumers are commercial drivers and others who can't just cut down on their driving, so there's less incentive for the oil companies to work to reduce those prices until gasoline is under control. Truckers can't just stop driving, soccer moms can, so they focus their pricing at the soccer moms who drive gasoline powered vehicles.

It's an annoying catch-22 situation, what we need to get more people to buy diesels is to get more people to buy diesels.

I currently drive a BMW 325i, but if they had brought over the 335d with a proper manual transmission you can be certain I'd be driving that right now. Unfortunately it's all autotragic for now. I'm a fan of the VWs with the DSG, my roommate has a GTI and I've driven a TDI Jetta, but I have an irrational dislike of FWD, so that's a no go too.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By wolrah on 7/6/2009 6:06:33 PM , Rating: 2
Also, even though diesel has been more expensive recently, you can drive a diesel like a maniac and it barely effects fuel mileage. For those who don't drive like a grandma on her way to church, a diesel will probably be less expensive to fuel even if it's $1 more per gallon. In my test drive, the Jetta TDI was over 40 MPG even when cruising over 100 MPH, where the GTI and my BMW both are well under 25.


RE: People can be so dumb.
By ggordonliddy on 7/4/09, Rating: 0
Missed oportunity
By djc208 on 7/2/2009 8:26:01 AM , Rating: 3
The big three have had the option to bring diesel options to the US for years and have dropped the ball. They should have started with 1/2-ton pickups and and commercial vehicles (where people want the diesel grunt and longevity) and worked their way down from there.

If the government was serious about fuel efficiency and clean technologies they'd provide the level playing field they enjoy in Europe. A non-commercial diesel taxed similar to gas, and diesel specific emissions regulations.

My next truck will be a diesel, unfortunately I have to custom build it to get it that way.




RE: Missed oportunity
By djc208 on 7/2/2009 8:27:57 AM , Rating: 2
Oh, and lets not forget how much easier and less damaging it is to run a diesel on bio-fuels than it is a gasoline vehicle.


RE: Missed oportunity
By rcc on 7/2/2009 4:24:38 PM , Rating: 3
Perhaps we should wait until the biofuels lose their "Crime against humanity" image.

I'm all in favor of technologies that support themselves. It's not there.


RE: Missed oportunity
By TheSpaniard on 7/2/2009 8:36:33 AM , Rating: 2
Ive seen diesel varietys of the larger work trucks in the US for a while now.

F-250s have them as an option


RE: Missed oportunity
By FITCamaro on 7/2/2009 12:44:49 PM , Rating: 2
Trucks are pretty much the only place US manufacturers offer diesels.


RE: Missed oportunity
By Spuke on 7/2/2009 1:26:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Trucks are pretty much the only place US manufacturers offer diesels.
Because they're exempt from emissions regulations (although they do pass).


RE: Missed oportunity
By Mozee on 7/2/2009 6:32:12 PM , Rating: 2
Diesels are offered by Ford/GM/Chrysler on all their trucks from 3/4 ton up, and on the commercial vans (Econoline/Express/Sprinter). GM and Chrysler have (for now) shelved their 6-cylinder diesel for the 1/2 ton trucks.

Ford currently still plans to bring out a 6-cylinder diesel for the F-150, Expedition, and Navigator.


RE: Missed oportunity
By Spuke on 7/2/2009 6:34:57 PM , Rating: 2
Toyota shelved their 1/2 ton diesel engine too.


RE: Missed oportunity
By ICBM on 7/2/2009 10:12:59 AM , Rating: 2
GM and Ford both have small diesel engines they sell over seas. The S10 and Ranger are both offered in diesel in Brazil and elsewhere. I am sure they just need a little tweaking to emissions to work here. So they have the technology ready, they just aren't bringing it here. I believe this is one of the reasons American car companies are so far behind is because they have ignored small diesel engines. Thinking about it really makes angry actually.

As for Chrysler, they have even LESS of an excuse. They have had access to Mercedes diesel tech(they used it in a Jeep). These are emission approved! They also use cummins in their heavy duty trucks, well guess what? Cummins already makes a 6 cylinder diesel that is used in UPS trucks! Emission approved again!! Slap that puppy in the 1/2 ton trucks people!!!

The American car companies have failed to see this, which is clear as day. There is no excuse. If it weren't for the jobs that would be lost, I would like to see all 3 be completely torn apart, and all executives thrown in mental institutions!

As for Toyota, Honda and others thinking diesel has a bad rap with people....Hmmm, VW has been selling them like hot cakes. People are going to look at fuel economy, not whether its straight gas, diesel, or hybrid. VW is proof of this. Someboday needs to slap these guys in the face and have them wake up!

BTW Toyota, Nissan, and Mitsubishi all have small diesel engines available elsewhere in the world as well. So its not like they are having to start from scratch.


RE: Missed oportunity
By ICBM on 7/2/2009 10:16:00 AM , Rating: 2
Oh forgot to mention this. Mahindra is going to be bringing their Appalachian truck here to the states with a diesel. It's a small truck around the size of a ranger.

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/02/11/mahindra-appala...


RE: Missed oportunity
By Spuke on 7/3/2009 12:42:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Mahindra is going to be bringing their Appalachian truck here to the states with a diesel.
Supposed to be here in the fall but do they even have a dealer network yet? I read that only 2 of the 324 dealers that signed up have started construction. Hard to find any updated info on this. Only thing I could find was that their seat supplier filed for bankruptcy.


RE: Missed oportunity
By rudolphna on 7/2/2009 11:12:16 AM , Rating: 2
That wasn't a Mercedes diesel. It was a VM Motori diesel. An Italian engine maker sold them to Chrysler. They no longer have unlimited access to the Mercedes parts bin because *gasp* they are no longer owned by Mercedes! I see you also fail to note that Honda and toyota, subaru,Mitsubishi all don't sell diesel cars in the US.

You see, the problem is that it is very expensive to make diesel engines meet particle emissions standards in the US. The smaller the car, the harder it is because there is a PPM/lb restriction. The lighter the car, the lower the particulate emissions have to be. This results in...
A. Higher Sale Price
B. Lower Profit Margins for the Automaker

Neither of which is very good buisness. There are still many americans who have a bad taste in their mouth from the diesel cars of the 80s. Smoky, loud, smelly. Most people also look at Semi Trucks, and school busses for their diesel identity. Loud, smoky, smelly. That is part of the problem. Sure, some people will look at only fuel economy, and sure alot of people will change their minds after a test drive, but many won't.


RE: Missed oportunity
By ICBM on 7/2/2009 12:35:17 PM , Rating: 2
Actually in the Cherokee it was a Mercedes diesel. The Motori you are refering to was in a Jeep Liberty and I believe they stopped offering it because emmisions standards changed and that engine didn't meet specs.

http://www.autoblog.com/2006/06/01/jeep-announces-...

I am well aware Mercedes doesn't own Chrysler anymore, but they still have access to some of their engines(which they use in some Freightliners as well). In regards to the japanese carmakers, I thought everyone assumed none of them offered diesel vehicles in the US. Look up your facts before you jump on my statements.

In regards to expense and making the small engines, VW has done it, and isn't charging much more. They said they are pleased with the sales. If VW can do it, there isn't any reason other car companies can't follow suit.

In regards to smelly diesels of the 80s, yeah they sucked(minus Mercedes). However Ford, Chevy, and Dodge 3/4 ton pickups all come with diesels and they are amazingly quiet and no smell. I live in South Texas, and these are the norm with a gasoline version the exception. The new semis and school buses are similar(though still not great) in that they are quiet and clean. If people are looking at a new car, and can get the 40mpg or better by spending an extra 2000, I honestly believe people will take that jump, diesel or hybrid. I would think more people would go with diesel because its not a new technology, its tried and true.

The main problem with diesel is price fluctuation. It can easily be equal to gasoline or exceed it by a dollar or two per gallon.


RE: Missed oportunity
By Mozee on 7/2/2009 6:42:24 PM , Rating: 2
I agree that re-engineering some of their overseas diesels for US emissions would be a great thing, but these companies don't have the cash flow to take the risk right now on it not working. I would LOVE to see the next Focus (Euro) come to the US with the diesel it has in Europe.

Chrysler can't just take the UPS truck version of Cummins and slap it in anything. They only have licensing for the one motor they use in the big Rams and that's it. And until they find a way to make some money I don't see Cummins taking the risk of a second bankruptcy on a second engine contract.

Also, using VW sales as "proof" that diesels sell like hotcakes in the US is a bit bold. You're talking about an auto group that combined (VW/Audi/Bentley) only managed to sell 26,674 vehicles (diesel & gas) in June with an industry total of 860,101 (Automotive News). VW Group would best be classified as near-niche sales for the US market.


Diesel Hybrid?
By KingstonU on 7/2/2009 8:41:45 AM , Rating: 3
Why not combine the best of both world's? And throw in variable displacement and EcoBoost on top of that. What kinds of MPG would this achieve?

Is there a reason none of the automaker's have done this? I hope GM's HCCI sees the light of day too.




RE: Diesel Hybrid?
By Zapp Brannigan on 7/2/2009 9:01:17 AM , Rating: 2
Ecoboost is just a turbocharged petrol engine with direct injection. Pretty much all common rail diesel engines have turbos already and are direct injection.

Ecoboost is nice, but direct injection petrol engines have been around for over 10 years now, it's just a new thing to america really.


RE: Diesel Hybrid?
By Spuke on 7/2/2009 2:11:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but direct injection petrol engines have been around for over 10 years now
In what cars?


RE: Diesel Hybrid?
By Jimbo1234 on 7/2/2009 2:58:04 PM , Rating: 2
No they haven't.

Quoting from Audiworld:
quote:
With the A4 2.0 FSI, Audi is now introducing a model with direct petrol injection in its second model series. The first vehicle with this technology, the A2 1.6 FSI, had its debut at the Geneva Motor Show in March 2002.


It's been 7 years since direct injection has been available on a consumer car. The first one to use direct injection engines in the US was the 2005 Audi A4 (B7) with the 2.0T or 3.2 V6. A 3.2 FSI is also used on the A6.


RE: Diesel Hybrid?
By Mr772 on 7/2/2009 10:13:52 AM , Rating: 2
VW has a TDI hybrid in development. It is rumored that it gets 90 mpg. It looks like a TDI Golf. If VW and Toyota could get together and share technology they could make an impressive engine using VW's awesome turbo diesel engine tech combined with Toyota's hybrid synergy drive tech.


RE: Diesel Hybrid?
By Hare on 7/2/2009 11:10:39 AM , Rating: 1
It has been done. I think Mercedes actually has big diesel engines that turn of a number of cylinders when little power is required and Saab has some kind of cylinder tilting scheme.

Ecoboost as such is just a stupid marketing name and is definately not unique. In fact until recently American diesels have been trailing far behind European engines (BMW, Mercedes, VAG).

If you want to see what a modern diesel engine does I suggest you check out BMW and MB BluTech.

Btw. I drive an Audi A4 with a Pumpe Düse (PD, Unit Injector Diesel) and I get around 47mpg. PD diesels are old tech, the newer common rail diesels actually get even better MPG.


RE: Diesel Hybrid?
By Spuke on 7/2/2009 2:12:18 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ecoboost as such is just a stupid marketing name and is definately not unique.
Ford Ecoboost engines are NOT diesels.


RE: Diesel Hybrid?
By Jimbo1234 on 7/2/2009 3:00:25 PM , Rating: 2
Right, EcoBoost is a gasoline direct injection turbo motor.


RE: Diesel Hybrid?
By Mozee on 7/2/2009 6:45:19 PM , Rating: 2
Well, technically gasoline direct-injection twin-turbo. With a torque curve shaped like a plateau - max torque from 1500 rpms steady up to just before redline.


RE: Diesel Hybrid?
By Spuke on 7/2/2009 7:13:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well, technically gasoline direct-injection twin-turbo.
There are other engines scheduled that will carry the Ecoboost moniker also. They won't be necessarily twin-turbo'd.

http://media.ford.com/article_display.cfm?article_...


turn off the vent
By stimudent on 7/2/09, Rating: 0
RE: turn off the vent
By Einy0 on 7/2/2009 8:51:23 AM , Rating: 2
that's 1970s diesel... modern diesel runs cleaner than gasoline. Personally I want the best of both worlds... Plug-in Diesel hybrid...


RE: turn off the vent
By SoulBlighter on 7/2/2009 9:35:51 AM , Rating: 2
You ate my words, yeah why not hybrid plug in diesel trucks like F150 or mid sized sedans? Maybe diesel already gives better mileage doesn't meant they cant make it hybrid to give further economy and reduce green house gasses.


RE: turn off the vent
By matt0401 on 7/2/2009 9:37:54 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed. Didn't VW plan to launch a diesel-electric hybrid Golf before the economy killed itself?

Also, I think the guy you replied to needs to see the "coffee filter experiment" video posted earlier on DT. VERY enlightening!


RE: turn off the vent
By Spacecomber on 7/2/2009 9:52:08 AM , Rating: 2
Can I use it as an emergency generator, too (feeding power back into the house, after a bad storm knocks out local power)? That would be cool.


RE: turn off the vent
By Omega215D on 7/2/2009 11:24:33 AM , Rating: 2
The OP is like the average US citizen, willfully ignorant of advancements and would rather hold back progress as shown in hot topics as nuclear power and clean diesel engines that are unlike those found in big rigs (at least in the US anyway, all trucks here still spew black smoke).


RE: turn off the vent
By KillaKilla on 7/2/2009 2:19:19 PM , Rating: 2
Newer large diesels are actually significantly cleaner than the best hybrids in a ton/mile basis, to the point that their exhausts remain clean for tens of thousands of miles (IE rub your finger on the inside rim and it will remain clean).

the medium duty (~650 ft/lb) unit in the Dodge Ram 2500/3500 meets similar standards. For comparison, the Mustang's V8 engine produces ~320 ft/lb, while achieving similar mileage, on a vehicle that weighs just over half as much. Modern diesel engines are quite clean, reliable, and efficient. Even moreso with a light (5%) blend of biodiesel.


RE: turn off the vent
By Jimbo1234 on 7/2/2009 3:19:49 PM , Rating: 2
That would be ft-lb, or more appropriately lb-ft. Torque is force x distance, like enegy, not distance per force. In engineering the more common unit is N-m which is equivalent to a Joule. Torque applied per unit of time makes power: J/s = Watt. 750W = 1 Hp.


RE: turn off the vent
By menace on 7/2/2009 5:11:52 PM , Rating: 3
Torque is not Work therefore Torque applied per unit time is not Power.

For example, lets say you put a wrench to a dump truck axle and apply 200 lbf torque. The axle doesn't budge. Nothing moved therefore no work and no power. It's no different than pushing on a concrete wall.

The "distance" measure of torque is just a radius term that relates the force applied into an equivalent "angular force". I.e. torque is the "force" in a rotational dynamic system. Force is to torque as distance is to angle as velocity is to angular velocity ("omega").

I love to school the pretenders.


Try a 335d
By Pneumothorax on 7/2/2009 9:51:14 AM , Rating: 2
For those who still think that Diesel is teh suxxors, try test-driving a 335d. You won't find another car with this much performance,fuel economy and DRIVING FEEL in one package. Too bad it's PRICEY!




RE: Try a 335d
By Jimbo1234 on 7/2/2009 3:12:05 PM , Rating: 2
An M3 can be had for close to the same price as an optioned out 335d.

M3 base MSRP: $57,175
335d all decked out: $59,920

$400 for ipod connectivity! WTF! How can a USB port cost more than the damn iPod. I hate BMW's nickel and diming scheme.

So, buying a 335d for savings at the pump verus a 328i (MSRP $34,425) is not a good idea.


RE: Try a 335d
By Pneumothorax on 7/2/2009 5:01:23 PM , Rating: 2
Option out the M3 and it's more than $74K.
You can get a stripper 335d that has about the same options as a stripper M3 (Which BTW has hybrid cloth/leather seats) for about $42K by ordering one bare bones (I'm not even counting Euro Delivery)

Have you even driven the 335d? It's even more fun (faster too) than the 335i on city streets, the 328i has too little torque with a slush-box. So you're getting much more power than the 328i with better Fuel economy.


RE: Try a 335d
By Spuke on 7/2/2009 5:47:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You can get a stripper 335d that has about the same options as a stripper M3
People that have $40k to spend on a car don't buy low or no option cars. If a person can't afford a well equipped 335i then they buy a well equipped 328i instead. Check out Autotrader if you don't believe me. Besides, people looking for a 335d don't cross shop the M3. One last thing, if the 335d gets to 60 in 5.7 sec and the 335i sedan gets to 60 in 4.8 sec, how is the 335d faster again?


RE: Try a 335d
By Pneumothorax on 7/2/2009 6:49:14 PM , Rating: 2
I only brought up the M3 as a previous poster was comparing a fully loaded 335d to a stripped out M3. I did a typo and meant to say the 335d is faster than 328i in city streets in trying to justify the 335d over the 328i. So if you want almost as good performance as the 335i with much better fuel economy and no HPFP issues (F U ethanol - it eats HPFP's for lunch) get the d.


RE: Try a 335d
By Keeir on 7/2/2009 7:09:43 PM , Rating: 2
I think he was refering to the very high low end Torque that makes 0-30 feel alot faster for the 335d. IE, the 335d is a heavier and accelerates faster at the lower RPM values... it -feels- alot faster

http://www.edmunds.com/bmw/3series/2009/testdrive....

Edmunds claims they tested 335d in the 0-30 sec time in the 2.3 (s) range

This about matches the values for the 335i tested by a different group

http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/cargrouptests/2328...

Edmunds claims of 4.8s for the 0-60 for the 335i are supposedly an anomaly...
http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/FullTe...

::shrug::


RE: Try a 335d
By Spuke on 7/3/2009 12:46:58 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Edmunds claims of 4.8s for the 0-60 for the 335i are supposedly an anomaly...
I got my 4.8 sec from Car and Driver. I doubt it's an anomaly though. It's a solid mid 13 sec car. Other owners have been able to duplicate the numbers.


In the EU deisel is fine
By englisboa on 7/2/2009 8:19:01 AM , Rating: 2
Well, across the pond deisel cars are very used, for the better mileage/kilometers, less comsumption and also because they are normally greener than gasoline cars, nor forgetting the cheaper cost of fuel. Also the resale price is normally better.
So with all the knowledge worldwide on deisel cars I think it would be cheaper to advertise deisel cars than to create costly hibrids that pollute the same as a modern deisel.




RE: In the EU deisel is fine
By 91TTZ on 7/2/2009 12:35:35 PM , Rating: 2
Both times that I've been to England I've been surprised just how "sooty" the cities are. With all this talk of clean diesels there seems to be quite a lot of dirty diesels. Compared to a large city like New York, London seems very dirty from all the diesel exhaust. It's very noticeable.


By Zapp Brannigan on 7/2/2009 1:22:43 PM , Rating: 2
that's because the majority of diesel engines on the road in the uk are dirty diesels, especially in hgv's and buses. Newer cleaner technologies are available but alot won't upgrade until they really need to, prefer to keep the older ones on the road for as long as possible.


RE: In the EU deisel is fine
By strikeback03 on 7/2/2009 1:35:07 PM , Rating: 2
I have heard this talk of higher taxes in Europe on gasoline over diesel, but when I was in England, Ireland, and Italy last year both fuels seemed to run about the same price everywhere I saw both advertised. Is it a more regional thing?


RE: In the EU deisel is fine
By Keeir on 7/2/2009 6:19:45 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
...because they are normally greener than gasoline cars...


Whoa, slow down there. Diesels are wonderful engines, but in comparison to gasoline they suffer from higher levels of "direct" pollution per mile. I call it direct, because things like Particular Matter is directly tied to human heath and air quality. Even the fancy BluTech Diesels, offering smaller pollution per mile levels than were measurable even in 2003, barely qualify in the US (and California) emission standards for sale in 2009. For example, Audi/VW has alot of experience with Diesels are are planning on offering thier A3 for sale in the US with a Diesel Engine, but the A4 with the same Diesel engine fails emissions standards currently and will not be offered.

Diesels are not greener than normal gasoline. Its a trade off, Diesels emit less C02 and more pollution. In comparison to a Gasoline-Electric Hybrid, provided the battery is responsibly made and recycled, Diesels are clearly not as green. (Although this trade off is the significantly worse performance of most gasoline-electric hybrids)


Prices?
By CU on 7/2/2009 9:13:16 AM , Rating: 2
Atleast where I live diesel always cost more. Is this because of taxes or what? Because the extra mpg doesn't really make up for the cost of the fuel, not including the cost of the diesel car over the gasoline car.




RE: Prices?
By FITCamaro on 7/2/2009 12:48:43 PM , Rating: 2
While true diesel is currently cheaper than regular. At least in the south east. And there is no reason diesel should be more than regular considering its made from the waste products of gasoline manufacturing.


RE: Prices?
By Keeir on 7/2/2009 9:19:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
While true diesel is currently cheaper than regular. At least in the south east. And there is no reason diesel should be more than regular considering its made from the waste products of gasoline manufacturing.


Diesel is used by an entirely different markets than gasoline and the thus the demand for Diesel is often independent of the demand for Gasoline. Furthermore, one can not simply "make more Diesel". A certain amount of Diesel can be extracted by a drum of oil and a certain amount of gasoline with non-linear trades between the two.

I guess what I am getting at, is that over a period of time there is no reason that Diesel will cost significantly more than gasoline per gallon. Yet, at individual moments in time (or time periods) there could be a great difference


Bankrupt
By Machinegear on 7/2/2009 8:09:51 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Chrysler and General Motors have growing money problems


That, is an understatement.




Fuel tax in the UE
By BrgMx5 on 7/2/2009 10:05:08 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
European nations routinely tax gasoline to offer incentives for shoppers to purchase diesel vehicles, but the same cannot be said for car buyers in North America


This is not 100% accurate.

European nations heavily tax all fuel, diesel and gasoline.

They are more careful in taxing diesel because of the companies that are immediately affected by its price (taxi, trucks, bus, etc).

FYI, the price of diesel before taxes is about €0,51 and gasoline is €0,47, with taxes it's €1,25 and €1,00 (prices are per litre, for Portugal, but it is similar in the rest of the UE)




By 91TTZ on 7/2/2009 12:32:16 PM , Rating: 2
A typical barrel of light sweet crude yields more than twice as much gasoline than diesel.

About 47% of that oil becomes gasoline whereas only 23% becomes diesel fuel.

http://www.window.state.tx.us/specialrpt/energy/no...

With diesel already more expensive than gas, simple laws of supply/demand would further increase the price of diesel if more people drove diesel powered cars.




By pg55555 on 7/2/2009 11:18:59 PM , Rating: 2
That reference is for USA: as they demand more gasoline than Diesel, they produce more.
A similar chart for Europe will show a very different picture.

Oil refining technology allows a wide range of different gasoline/diesel ratios. Not in the same refinery: you design a refinery to produce more gasoline or to produce more diesel, taking into account the type of oil that will be refined.

So, if the US move massively to diesel, they should have to invest in modifying the refineries, not an easy task (I have read that due to environmental regulations it is difficult to open new refineries).

Market laws indicate when demand for diesel increases, it will shift the demand/supply relationship, pushing diesel prices up, which will drive refineries to make the investments needed to increase diesel supply, but at the same time diminishing the attractiveness of diesel vehicles. Eventually a new equilibrium will be reached


Gas Stations Not Ready
By DXRick on 7/2/2009 2:23:53 PM , Rating: 2
Correct me if I am wrong, but US gas stations aren't ready for a significant increase in demand for diesel. They may have 1 or two pumps for it and (probably) a small underground tank.

An increase in the demand for diesel would require significant expensive changes for the gas stations. Until the changes are made to meet demand, the price of diesel would skyrocket.




RE: Gas Stations Not Ready
By Jimbo1234 on 7/2/2009 3:14:23 PM , Rating: 2
It's a regional thing. Where I live urban stations do not always have diesel, but rural ones do. And quite a few stations even have E85 which is one of the biggest shams of this decade.


By BZDTemp on 7/2/2009 8:40:48 AM , Rating: 3
It sounds odd to me that Toyota is mentioned as scaling back with regards to diesel as it was a new thing they are getting into. Everything from the smallest IQ to the Land Cruiser offers the choice of Diesel and it has been like that for a long time.

My guess is that they may be scaling back marketing diesel cars in the US but that is certainly not what the article says.

Also on a somewhat separate matter. FIAT is one of the leaders in diesel tech for cars. They invented common-rail and are getting ready to release the next big thing - which they will not sell off to Bosch ;-)




By KingConker on 7/2/2009 9:16:35 AM , Rating: 3
In the UK diesel (heavy oil) is now almost identical in price to unleaded.

Diesel engines produce far more torque than similar capacity gasoline engines, are ideal for towing and almost unbeatable in the 30 - 70 mph overtaking zone - which let's face is far more useful in the real world than 0 - 60 times. Although to be honest they now post very quick times in this respect too - particularly in the sequential two-turbo variants that Jaguar and Saab among others offer. The are also limited to 155 mph in some cases :)

Servicing periods are longer - you often have an additional 6th gear in manuals for much better gear ratio placement too.

Most good diesels will travel for 800 miles or so on a full tank.

Yes, they sound like dropping a bag of spanners when you start from cold and the engines are often a bit heavier and you pay a slight premium on the cost of the car - it's a small price to pay.




Good
By Type2 on 7/2/2009 9:14:20 AM , Rating: 2
The last thing we need are people puttering around in torquey, highly efficient, reliable powerplants with smiles on their faces. Hopefully Subaru falls in line with these genuises and doesn't release a US diesel boxster engine as well. I would hate to have my perfectly balanced boxster engine kicking out massive AWD torque on a sporty suspension *and* get good mpg. Nope, I couldn't put up with that...




Won't pay for better fuel economy?
By arazok on 7/2/2009 9:50:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Despite the fact that diesels can achieve 20 to 30 percent better fuel efficiency than traditional gasoline engines, the current economic climate doesn’t bode well for the price premium that is often thousands of dollars.


Hilarious. Just slap a "hybrid" decal on these things and people will line the block to pay the extra money.




diesels
By 2tweeked on 7/2/2009 11:31:18 PM , Rating: 2
Diesels are good engines especially the old all mechanical design without the electronics (impervious to EMP pulses & UFO's)LOL! Really diesels are good engines that run on a gasoline byproduct which is called diesel fuel. The oil companies are screwing every way. This is why diesel fuel use to be so inexpensive. I think the car companies should get away from reciprocal engines for hybrid vehicles. Why? space & weight issue verses battery pack. Time for micro-turbines. Turbines have only 1 major moving part. Turbines are easy maintenance and burn multiple fuels including diesel & alcohol. Micro-turbines are perfect for hybrids and Ford UK has already built one,electric Ford S-Max.

See:http://www.greencarcongress.com/2009/06/capstone-p...




Only half an article
By lemonadesoda on 7/4/2009 10:54:50 AM , Rating: 2
You need to look at EURO 5 emission standards to understand WHY so many manufacturers are pushing back the launch of 2009/2010 diesel models.

The answer is SIMPLE. They DONT have the engine technology that meets the emissions regulations.

More info for those interested: http://www.dieselnet.com/standards/eu/hd.php

http://www.euractiv.com/en/transport/euro-5-emissi...




Unfortunate...
By Beenthere on 7/2/09, Rating: 0
"Vista runs on Atom ... It's just no one uses it". -- Intel CEO Paul Otellini









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