Print 44 comment(s) - last by Monkey's Uncle.. on Oct 29 at 9:56 AM

Looks like there may be some Microsoft on Microsoft digital violence

Qualcomm Inc.'s (QCOM) Applications Processor Product Management VP Raj Talluri suggested in a new interview with CNET that the Nokia Devices Lumia 2520 is going to utterly outclass the Surface 2 in performance.

He comments, "The performance on the 2520 is brilliant.  It's really at the next level. It's not even really a contest compared to Surface 2. In every area, it's much bigger, faster, and lower power."

The Surface 2 carries a 1.7 GHz quad-core Tegra 4 processor from NVIDIA Corp. (NVDA), disappointing some who were hoping for the fresh Tegra 4i.  The Lumia 2520 includes Qualcomm's latest a greatest system-on-a-chip, a 2.2 GHz quad-core Snapdragon 800 and is Nokia Devices' first full-size tablet.  

Lumia 2520 with keyboard case

Microsoft's device is $50 USD cheaper at $449 USD versus $499 USD for the Lumia 2520.  The type cover for the Lumia is also slightly more expensive -- $150 USD versus $129 USD for the Surface 2's keyboard cover.

Surface 2 (L) and Surface Pro 2 (R)

Whichever device is the "better deal" -- the cheaper Surface 2 with a slightly slower processor, or the faster Lumia 2520 with a higher sticker -- Microsoft likely isn't losing any sleep or complaining about this free attention.  After all, it's competing against itself.  

While the Surface 2 is Microsoft-branded, the Lumia 2520 is produced by Nokia Devices, a division of Nokia Oyj. (HEX:NOK1V) which Microsoft recently acquired.  Hence whichever tablet comes out on top Microsoft wins if either sells well.

This isn't the first time that Qualcomm has scoffed at the performance of the Tegra 4 compared to its Snapdragon 800.  And it's not the first time in the last couple months that a Qualcomm executive has been quoted making controversial comments.

Adreno inside
Qualcomm is very confident in the performance of its new Snapdragon 800 chips. 

But unlike Anand Chandrasekher's controversial rant about Apple's use of 64-bit architecture in its A7, these pointed remarks at least solely target a competitor's product (NVIDIA's).  By contrast Mr. Chandreskher's comments disrupted Qualcomm's own product plans, by casting its upcoming 64-bit chips in a negative light; subsequently he was reassigned, a move many viewed as a demotion for the poorly considered comment.

Qualcomm's Mr. Talluri also said that he isn't worried about Windows RT's struggles.  He echoes partner Microsoft's patient approach, remarking, "We have a longer term view on these things.  The RT of today may not be the RT of tomorrow. But the vision of a device that's both your entertainment and productivity device that you want to carry with you is going to be there. We invest for the longer term.  Google and Microsoft are very capable organizations, [with] lots of technologies.  [Microsoft] didn't hit a home run out of the gate on the very first [Windows RT] product, but they're working on it."

Source: CNET

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So MS was right
By amanojaku on 10/28/2013 12:24:57 PM , Rating: 5
In order to create a decent Windows tablet, it had to make its own. Suddenly, Nokia and other companies are finally figuring out how to make decent Windows tablets. Makes those competition complaints look stupid. MS's reliance on partners could have been its undoing.

RE: So MS was right
By stjones03 on 10/28/2013 12:29:22 PM , Rating: 3
You mean in order for a decent windows tablet Microsoft had to buy the company????

RE: So MS was right
By daveinternets on 10/28/2013 12:42:12 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, because Nokia/MS designed and built the tablet in a matter of months...

RE: So MS was right
By Reclaimer77 on 10/28/13, Rating: -1
RE: So MS was right
By inighthawki on 10/28/2013 1:13:57 PM , Rating: 5
If only I had known ahead of time that I could just go buy a bunch of off the shelf parts and throw together a tablet. Here I am foolishly thinking that laptops and tablets actually have custom made parts to fit all the various strange form factors and thicknesses.

RE: So MS was right
By mforce on 10/28/2013 1:25:25 PM , Rating: 2
You just go to newEgg and buy some off the shelf parts, put them together and voila, your own WindowsRT tablet.
It is true that you can have an ODM build a tablet for you and yes you don't have to be Apple, you can use an off the shelf SOC but there's still a lot of work.
You need a custom board, custom software, custom case ... unless you use existing ones and just put your name on it but this isn't the case here.

RE: So MS was right
By Reclaimer77 on 10/28/13, Rating: -1
RE: So MS was right
By inighthawki on 10/28/2013 1:49:34 PM , Rating: 4
I actually knew exactly what you meant and was exaggerating the point to make a joke.

In all seriousness though, you're also still wrong. There are still many custom designed parts in addition to the work necessary to figure out how to fit them into the form factor and manage performance and thermals appropriately. Just because they can go and buy existing parts for things like the SoC, SSD, etc, doesn't mean there is no (or even little) work for them to do to make a good tablet. It goes through dozens of iterations and QA to test all kinds of various configurations.

RE: So MS was right
By Reclaimer77 on 10/28/13, Rating: 0
RE: So MS was right
By inighthawki on 10/28/2013 3:41:43 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe there is just some miscommunication here, but your original reply sounded as though you were implying that it was a simple task for OEMs to just get "a bunch of off the shelf parts" and put them together, and it didn't take long to do. Or at least that's how it sounded to me.

RE: So MS was right
By Reclaimer77 on 10/28/13, Rating: 0
RE: So MS was right
By cashkennedy on 10/28/2013 10:46:22 PM , Rating: 2
I agree any oem can design and produce a new tablet / phone in a few months easily, except Blackberry who strugles to turn out 4 devices in 1 year, and probably was working on those 4 for the last 3 years after they bought QNX. You have to praise Nokia for its amazing ability to bring a wide diverse range of products to market so quickly, really well designed, and really well executed. They shame almost all other OEMs tiny product spread.

RE: So MS was right
By Monkey's Uncle on 10/29/2013 9:37:26 AM , Rating: 2
Actually OEMs don't need to reinvent the wheel to create a tablet that runs Windows decently.

I have a very good idea what reclaimer meant by his 'off the shelf' statement. Off the shelf in this context is that OEMs can buy their own standard components from their manufacturers (i.e. Qualcomm, Nvidia, AMD, Intel, Samsung, Micron, etc) and wire them together rather using reference product designs rather than having to fab their own. This is common practice today for retail-market components and is practiced by all 2nd & 3rd tier product manufacturers.

RE: So MS was right
By MarcLeFou on 10/28/2013 1:16:58 PM , Rating: 2
Uhhh no ?

Nokia has been working on a tablet for years. The design and specs evolved but its been in the cards for quite some time. And the first leaks of the actual tablet being released happened before the deals was announced.

Better luck next time.

RE: So MS was right
By troysavary on 10/28/2013 1:19:27 PM , Rating: 2
So make one, genius.

RE: So MS was right
By Reclaimer77 on 10/28/13, Rating: -1
RE: So MS was right
By ClownPuncher on 10/28/2013 1:51:24 PM , Rating: 2
Just glue it all together and put it on the shelves.

RE: So MS was right
By Monkey's Uncle on 10/29/2013 9:48:32 AM , Rating: 2
Hey try, were you born that dense or did you study for it? I am sure if reclaimer was the CEO of a major electronics corporation he would.

Any product manufacturer can throw together a surface-like product using standard components. They don't have to reinvent them or have their own fabs for the major components (display, SoC, WLAN, ethernet, storage, etc). There are even reference designs available for them to base their own designs on.

It is not rocket science and it really doesn't require years of R&D to do. All it really requires is acquiring the appropriate licenses and paying out the royalties.

It is done all the time to the profit of everyone involved.

RE: So MS was right
By Samus on 10/28/2013 1:34:52 PM , Rating: 3
Microsoft just had to show the world how it's done. The Surface is the benchmark tablet, an evolution of the Currier concept Microsoft has been sitting on for over a decade, and the latest prototype of which was demonstrated in 2010 (before the iPad.)

The point is, Microsoft had to show its partners what its vision was. The Nokia tablet is very similar to the Surface because it follows this vision. Other WinRT tablets have just been reused Android shells...

RE: So MS was right
By Bubbacub on 10/28/13, Rating: 0
RE: So MS was right
By inighthawki on 10/28/2013 2:04:27 PM , Rating: 2
their business case the last few years has been to tell the customer 'f&^k you stupid', you are going to buy this product that we have decided is what everybody should want. not what you want but what we tell you to want.

Seems to be working for Apple :)

RE: So MS was right
By Reclaimer77 on 10/28/2013 3:08:02 PM , Rating: 1
Seems to be working for Apple :)

Unfortunately for Microsoft, they don't have that "rockstar" rebel image and cult following of Apple. They can't put rubber dog crap in a box and have sales in the millions.

I remember when the iPhone 5c came out, a prominent Appletard figurehead called it "beautifully, apologetically plastic!" After bashing Apple competitors for years for using plastic on their phones mind you.

This kind of biased idiocy doesn't exist in the Microsoft universe. Microsoft will be judged and judged harshly only on the merits of the software and device.

That's why Windows 8 has been so poorly received. You can't cater to professionals and everyday powerusers, then one day decide to throw a UI at them that belongs on a kids toy.

RE: So MS was right
By althaz on 10/28/2013 6:06:42 PM , Rating: 3
The Office formats are simply zipped up XML files...I don't know if you can make them any easier to work with (they are quite easy to do things to).

RE: So MS was right
By Tony Swash on 10/28/13, Rating: -1
RE: So MS was right
By Skelum on 10/28/2013 3:00:41 PM , Rating: 3
Yes, because Microsoft bought Nokia without any heads up...

Seriously, Microsoft gave Nokia 1 billion a couple years ago for the WP exclusivity. Nokia was basically forced to make their way up to the "surface" copy.

RE: So MS was right
By NellyFromMA on 10/28/2013 4:39:12 PM , Rating: 3
Remember when Google bought Motorola?

RE: So MS was right
By corduroygt on 10/28/2013 12:59:33 PM , Rating: 3
Neither the Surface nor this are "Windows" tablets, which implies they will run Windows programs. These are both worthless RT tablets, you can get x86 "Windows" tablets that will run everything for the same price with comparable battery life and better performance.

RE: So MS was right
By agent2099 on 10/28/2013 11:10:04 PM , Rating: 2
What I was going to say. These are not "windows" tablets.

RE: So MS was right
By Reclaimer77 on 10/28/2013 1:10:21 PM , Rating: 1
What planet are you on? The Surface was a disaster! They lost like over a billion on a very mediocre device nobody wanted.

The OEM's have largely ignored Microsoft's horrible mobile ecosystem. Nokia doesn't exactly count either.

I guess you could say MS was right, in that nobody else would WANT to.

RE: So MS was right
By inighthawki on 10/28/2013 1:16:54 PM , Rating: 3
The surface wasn't a disaster because the device itself was low quality, it was a disaster because of poor marketing, poor branding (capabilities of Windows RT) and the bad image and reputation that Windows 8 has.

The device itself is quite frankly one of the highest quality things I've ever laid my hands on. It puts to shame every Android and iOS device I've ever seen.

RE: So MS was right
By Reclaimer77 on 10/28/13, Rating: 0
RE: So MS was right
By nafhan on 10/28/2013 2:00:04 PM , Rating: 2
Suddenly, Nokia and other companies...
Who are the other companies making Win RT tablets? The final nail in the coffin for Win RT is not going to be from Google or Apple, but from traditional Windows OEM's making low cost and interesting real Win 8 machines (i.e. Asus T100).

In short, your statement might have some truth to it, but not in the context of this Nokia tablet or the Surface (non-pro).

RE: So MS was right
By YearOfTheDingo on 10/28/2013 2:02:21 PM , Rating: 2
It depends on how you how you define "decent." In economics, there is the concept of diminishing returns. If a firm put twice the efforts and resources into a product, it probably won't be twice better. On the other hand, the consumer electronics market is governed by what I call "the glass is not full, you motherfucker!" dynamic. Basically, consumers will focus on what's not there. The metaphoric glass might be 99% full, but that 1% is 100% empty--and that's what matters.

Gaining full control over the production of Windows tablet is about getting that 1% right.

RE: So MS was right
By Monkey's Uncle on 10/29/2013 9:56:23 AM , Rating: 2
Not really.

In order to get Nokia to make a decent Windows tablet Microsoft had to actually buy as large portion of Nokia's company and fine-tune their windows OS to run well on it. You can do that if you have a very close relationship with your hardware partners.

There is also the marketing aspect of it. What CEO wants to spend even the negligible investment required to make a Surface clone when by all indications from earlier surface models showed that it sucked & people really didn't want it? If I were running a major electronics firm, I would certainly want to have a damn good idea that if I built something, people would buy it. It took Microsoft pushing an obscenely huge investment in Nokia hardware to get Nokia to focus on producing this.

By Varun on 10/28/2013 12:50:44 PM , Rating: 2
Of course they'd say that. Hopefully they are right I can't wait to see benchmarks of the 2520.

Also for $50 more you also get LTE, which is pretty huge.

Personally I prefer the look and feel of the Surface but I can't wait to see a head to head comparison of these two devices.

RE: Shocking
By Solandri on 10/28/2013 1:11:13 PM , Rating: 2
I've always felt your phone should be the only device with LTE, and any other devices which need mobile Internet should tether to your phone via 802.11x wi-fi.

Putting LTE into every mobile device you own makes about as much sense as getting a separate DSL/cable Internet subscription for each computer in your home. Do you pay them extra every time you hook up another device to your main router?

RE: Shocking
By troysavary on 10/28/2013 1:21:45 PM , Rating: 2
I'd go for WIndows 8 myself, but if I wanted RT, it would be a tough choice. The Surface has incredible build quality but nVidia is a minus when to compared to Qualcomm.

RE: Shocking
By Varun on 10/28/2013 1:45:06 PM , Rating: 2
It's true, you can tether, but built in is going to be more dummy proof.

Although with WP8 GDR3 and Windows 8.1, the ability to create a hotspot over Bluetooth makes it pretty easy.

That being said there's a lot of reasons to have built in LTE. Personally I wouldn't do it, but it makes sense for a lot of people.

tegra 4
By Yofa on 10/28/2013 12:58:29 PM , Rating: 2
tegra 4 is faster than tegra 4i. 4i is just for phone use, but for tablet application, tegra 4 is the better performer.

RE: tegra 4
By Ktracho on 10/28/2013 1:27:22 PM , Rating: 2
Right. The Tegra 4i has a built in modem, whereas the Tegra 4 does not. I could see AT&T, for example, offering the Nokia tablet in their stores, whereas you'd have to go somewhere else to get a Surface 2. On the other hand, it looks like you can stand the Surface 2 on a table without its extra-cost cover, whereas you need a cover with Nokia's tablet in order to do this.

Surprising news!
By troysavary on 10/28/2013 1:18:34 PM , Rating: 2
Company A claims its' product is better than company B's product. In other surprising developments, temperature is dropping as we near winter.

RE: Surprising news!
By inighthawki on 10/28/2013 1:21:28 PM , Rating: 2
In other surprising developments, temperature is dropping as we near winter.

Thanks for the reminder! I almost forgot to actually wear a jacket. It would've stumped me all day as to why I was feeling cold...

By synapse46 on 10/28/2013 12:54:26 PM , Rating: 2
Collectively I wonder what kind of write-off these will take.

Original Intent of WinRT/WART
By rocketbuddha on 10/28/2013 2:46:09 PM , Rating: 2
Keep in mind, when originally MS introduced WinRT, multiple SOC manufacturers tried to show that their ARM SOCs are capable of supporting RT.
I am unable to get the link to a old anandtech article hence I am linking disparate stories.

Here is TI with its OMAP

Here is Qualcomm with its S4

Tegra 3

Clearly at this time, MS wanted to have a WARM system spanning multiple SOCs not unlike a x86 across Intel, AMD, VIA. Given the price points that ARM SOCs were targetting compared to the Intel tablet variants, initially the OEMs and the various SOC camps were right on board, ready to enter the new market and Windows eco-system (though not compatible with Win-x86 though).

But once MS muddied the waters by stating that it is going to create a Surface tablet with WinRT, it basically caused its OEM partners to digress either overtly (in case of Acer) or covertly. Add to it WART and Surface RT became a flop.

With Baytrail being cheap, all the hardware OEMs can openly shun WART and go towards the Win8-x86 based Windows tablets, giving a rat's ass about whatever MS or Nokia comes up with.

WART/WinRT will have only 1 shelf life and that will be in Micosoft-Nokia world. Every one else will shun it.

"There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share. No chance." -- Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer

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