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Zanjani's human-sheep Chimera
Scientists hope to be able to use animals such as sheep as proper organ donors for humans

The University of Nevada's professor Esmail Zanjani has successfully created the world's first human-sheep chimera, comprised of 85 percent animal cells along with 15 percent human cells.  The animal has the body of a common sheep with organs that are all half-human.  So far, Zanjani has put seven years of research and around ~$9 million of money into the research, with the injections of human cells into a sheep's fetus as one of the crucial steps.

Zanjani also has successfully created a sheep liver that is composed of a large amount of human cells.  The overall goal behind the research is to be able to use animal organs as a viable option when humans need an organ transplant.  Ultimately, stem cells would be taken from the donor and injected into a sheep's fetus.  After a lamb is born in about two months, the heart, lungs, liver and brain could all be compatible with the donor.

Zanjani's research on this particular project has undergone trials for years, with the first proposals initiated in 2000.  His original paper published seven years ago is still publically available.

Announcement of the research will also give further life to an ongoing bio-ethical debate that is going on around the world.  One of the criticisms of the research includes the possibility of creating a type of "biological nightmare in humans."  Silent viruses, completely harmless to animals, could be passed to humans, warns Patrick Dixon, an international lecturer on biological trends.

On the other hand, if Zanjani's research flourishes, organ donor waitlists may become a thing of the past.

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Awesome, BUT...
By therealnickdanger on 3/28/2007 6:58:17 PM , Rating: 5
Hopefully they don't try to sell the leftover meat to grocery stores. It's almost like cannabalism... kinda creepy. I'm anxious to see how this will play out. This could very well be the most important medical breakthrough ever. Ever.

Invest in stock tomorrow if you can.




RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: Awesome, BUT...
By James Holden on 3/28/2007 7:06:36 PM , Rating: 4
What was so asinine about it? This is *huge* news if it turns out to be true. I had an uncle die on a waitlist.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: Awesome, BUT...
By James Holden on 3/29/2007 10:49:58 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
The bulk of people who get organ transplants get them because the took poor care of themselves, that is a fact.

You're kidding me right? CHD, Cardiomyopathy, Arrhythmia -- all clearly the patients fault. Get a clue kid.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: Awesome, BUT...
By porkpie on 3/29/2007 1:27:38 PM , Rating: 1
Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is most common in young adults, and certainly not the result of "lifestyle choices". Arrhythmias are generally the result of heart disease, and can result from hundreds of different factors...many of which, again, have nothing to do with lifestyle choices.

> "I'm a doctor, for your information..."

A very poorly educated one, it seems.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/29/2007 2:17:07 PM , Rating: 3
> "I'm just saying its not the most important medical breakthrough, ever"

If that was all you were saying, I would have agreed. Sanitation takes the cake hands down. However, you had to follow up with this little gem:

quote:
It saddens me that humans will put this burden on millions of animals without blinking an eye, using their bodies to grow up organs so they can continue living an unhealthy lifestyle...
Everyone deserves a chance at life, even those with "unhealthy lifestyles".


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By teldar on 3/29/2007 4:23:39 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Everyone deserves a chance at life, even those with "unhealthy lifestyles".


I'm a nurse in an ICU at a tertiary care center. We're a general ICU with medical and surgical patients as well as traumas. We take it all.

I have to say, there are a ton of people who kill themselves off. As far as having a chance at life, many of these people have had their chance at live and have decided to do cocaine until their heart is so hypertrophic it cannot function, they drink until their livers are shot, and even as important to me, are so noncompliant with things like blood pressure meds and diabetic meds they have to get their limbs amputated.

I think they have had their chance at life, and they have had no desire to keep themselves healthy. The doc is right. People do themselves in. From what I see, I would say the vast majority of transplant patients cause their own organs to fail. Not 100%, but most.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 6:27:28 PM , Rating: 1
Thank you for that breath of fresh air teldar. You seem to be the only person on here who knows what I'm talking about. I don't blame the lay person for not being aware of these things, but it's amazing how everyone has come down on me like I'm some demon from hell for saying anything. Everything you said is right on!


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 2:46:00 AM , Rating: 2
> "I'm a nurse in an ICU...the vast majority of transplant patients cause their own organs to fail"

In your own little world, perhaps. I've already posted statistics that show for kidney and pancreas failures, the majority of cases are not due to lifestyle choices. For transplants like corneal, bone marrow, essentially zero are lifestyle related. In the case of liver disease only, you have a case.

Currently, there are several thousand children on organ donor waitlists in the US. Do you consider a child under the age of 12 as "responsible" for their organ failure?

> "I think they have had their chance at life."

Perhaps, but wouldn't it be wonderful if we could give them another? Isn't that the esssence of humanity itself?


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 11:00:53 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Currently, there are several thousand children on organ donor waitlists in the US. Do you consider a child under the age of 12 as "responsible" for their organ failure?

This is yet another unfair comment. The nurse said nothing about this population of patients. Quit inciting arguments out of thin air.

>> "I think they have had their chance at life."
quote:
Perhaps, but wouldn't it be wonderful if we could give them another? Isn't that the esssence of humanity itself?


Not when they are still abusing their bodies. I really don't think someone should continue living indefinitely if they choose to treat there body as if it were disposable.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 11:11:37 AM , Rating: 2
> "The nurse said nothing about this population of patients..."

Oh yes he did. He claimed that "nearly all" those waiting for a transplant brought the problem on themselves. I pointed out just one of the numerous groups of people who did not, thereby disproving his assumption.

> "I really don't think someone should continue living indefinitely if they choose to treat there body as if it were disposable"

I don't think anyone-- certainly not a doctor-- should ever make the decision about when another person deserves to "continue living" or not. You mentioned slippery slopes earlier...do you not see how far you yourself have slid?


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 11:46:55 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Oh yes he did.

You are a moron, dude. I have to struggle to even respond to your illogical arguing. If you don't agree, please just say, I disagree, instead of continuing to take quotes out of context / warping what was said.

"Nearly all" is taking it over the top, which I have been guilty of as well, for arguments sake, but we have always noted (including me in my 2nd post above) that I am generalizing, that there is are large populations that cannot prevent their own disease! Do you think I'm not aware of that! How many times do I have to say it!

quote:
I don't think anyone-- certainly not a doctor-- should ever make the decision about when another person deserves to "continue living" or not. You mentioned slippery slopes earlier...do you not see how far you yourself have slid?

Wha? Again you boggle my mind. A person who has brought themselve close to death by there own actions can only be saved by a doctor, if the doctor has to do an organ transplant to prolong their life, that is an extraordinary measure by all means. A doctor doesn't have to decide anything in order for the person to die, they will die regardless unless extraordinary measures are taken. That is hardly even close to being a good example of the slippery slope. I hope this is the last reply I have to make to you. You have proven to be terribly misinformed and your arguments are childish and easy to refute. Go dig a hole.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 11:53:17 AM , Rating: 1
> ""Nearly all" is taking it over the top"

So in one post you agree with , then the next admit she's incorrect? A strange debating tactic you have. And you've still failed to challenge the fact that your original statement was incorrect. "Most" people do not bring organ failure on themselves.

> "A doctor doesn't have to decide anything in order for the person to die..."

I'll explain again, this time using smaller words. The issue isn't the action taken itself, its the value judgement made on whether or not the person "deserves" to die.

You've admitted to believing that the life of an alchoholic, or even a moderately obese person has less value than that of a sheep. That's the value judgement of a fascist pig...not a person who deserves to associate with decent human society.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 3:51:03 PM , Rating: 2
You are an unhappy, smug little (wo)man who speaks to people as if they are idiots. In contrast to you, I actually listen to what have said and respond appropriately. You just disregard most of what I am saying and then pick and choose text snippets, taken out of context and warped, to use them against me. It is doing nothing to advance this debate except incite frustration, because you refuse to see my views the way I have presented them. You have done nothing but attack me, providing no positive ideas of your own. I'm not going to continue to dignify your continued rambling with a response.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By mrteddyears on 3/30/2007 6:25:38 AM , Rating: 2
I can’t actually believe as a nurse you have said the things you have said. If you are so disillusioned with people and what they do to themselves why do you do your job.

This break through could save the life of millions and while I am an animal lover I would take the life of a sheep over a human any day. If a million sheep could save the life of just 1 human then its worth it. As long as the animal feels no pain and is looked after humanly.

Straight up forget the stock lets applauded this guy and donate to his research and as for arswihart if that was your son or daughter laying on the slab because of the waiting list what would you say then.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 10:29:11 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
If you are so disillusioned with people and what they do to themselves why do you do your job.

Because it pays the bills, bub. It's a crappy job, no doubt. It is amazing the things you see and experience in the ICE and other healthcare settings. If you haven't been there, don't comment about it.

quote:
and as for arswihart if that was your son or daughter laying on the slab because of the waiting list what would you say then.

Again you have completely missed all of my points. My guess if you read masher2's responses to selected quotes, which he took out of context to begin with. This thread has made me out to be some kind of monster. Welcome to the internet, welcome to healthcare discussion on Anandtech. A bunch of pedestrian blabbermouth's with no time to read comments, just to spout there out hatred and anger on others. I hope that this comment you left was therapeutic somehow for you.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 11:17:31 AM , Rating: 3
> "This thread has made me out to be some kind of monster"

Your own comments did that. When you make comments that people deserve to die because of alchoholism, drug addiction-- or worse-- simply overeating a bit-- what do you expect? When you place the life of a sheep above that of a human- what do you expect? What are you going to advocate next...state-sponsored eugenics and a program of infanticide?


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 11:53:03 AM , Rating: 2
You again have missed my point. Please read my last comment to you above. This is getting very old. And it's comments like this one here that are perpetuating people thinking I'm saying things I'm not. You are just taking one piece of what I said and saying it was something else. To people reading this: please read my original comments in entirety if you want to know what I said. Masher2 is on an illogical arguing spree and is taking everyones words out of context and warping them so he can keep appearing as some triumphant defender of humanity...give me a break.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 7:47:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hypertrophic cardiomyopathy is most common in young adults, and certainly not the result of "lifestyle choices".

Please go read a book or at least google before posting as if you know anything moron. It can be caused by a virus, but it is commonly caused by alcohol and / or cocaine abuse. The number one caused of arrhythmias is coronary disease, which, is brought on by a multitude of lifestyle choices, although there is a strong genetic predisposition as well, among other factors. And you call me stupid, your post is a prime example of an internet "expert" going around saying stuff they have no idea about.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By encryptkeeper on 3/29/2007 2:37:17 PM , Rating: 2
Doctor? Yeah...right. My high school principal was referred to as 'Doctor'. Out of all the claims on this board, I don't think anyone has done such an outlandish claim, or so poorly.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 6:33:14 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah that was a pretty poor try on my part, maybe I should give you all my personal contact info so I can start a barrage of hate mail and death threats. Yeah that would have been a better way to go...


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/29/2007 11:06:19 AM , Rating: 5
> "The bulk of people who get organ transplants get them because the took poor care of themselves, that is a fact"

What ignorant, asinine nonsense is this? Do you have any idea how many small children need transplants? Did they "not take care of" themselves? You think people need corneal transplants because they didn't "take care" of their eyes, or someone who needs a bone marrow transplant got leukemia because of poor living?

The most common organ transplant is the kidney, and the most common reasons for kidney failure are infections, allergic reactions to drugs, genetic predisposition to immunological diseases. None of which are due to "not taking care of yourself". Your insinuation that people who need transplants deserve their suffering is beyond contempt.

The most hypocritical aspect is that people with your attitude who suddenly find themselves in need of a transplant are usually the ones to scream loudest for them. I'm sure you'll be no different than the rest.

> "People who get organ transplants often have a reduced quality of life following the surgery, not to mention they only live a few years on average "

So they don't deserve those extra years of life, is that your insinuation? And for your information, the reason people who receive transplants have a "reduced quality of life" and a limited lifespan is because current transplants are imperfect . They aren't a genetic match, so the body is in constant danger of rejecting them. This research would eliminate that entirely, and allow a transplant recipient to lead a normal life.

Honestly, you have the gall to call people "blathering idiots" and make a post like this? Go pull up your pants and sit in your corner. You don't deserve to associate with decent human society.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/07, Rating: -1
RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/29/2007 1:37:53 PM , Rating: 4
> "Your wrong about kidney transplants. By far they are now being done for people with Type II diabetes...which is caused largely by lifestyle decisions"

Type II diabetes is not "largely caused" by lifestyle decisions. Poor diet and excess body weight do increase your risk true...so does family history, race, and quite a few other factors. There are countless people who eat well and exercise, who still develop diabetes.

And diabetes itself only accounts for 36% of all cases of end-stage renal disease. 17% of cases are the result of glomerulonephritis, which has nothing to do with lifestyle changes. Cystic Kidney disease is another big cause...again, a disease that has nothing to do with lifestyle.

And I notice you failed to address any of my other examples such as corneal or bone marrow transplants. Are you seriously going to blame these on lifestyle as well?


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/29/2007 2:20:10 PM , Rating: 4
> "I'm the one speaking up for animal rights in this thing, so don't call me callous"

When you emphasise animal rights to the point of detracting from humanity, then you cross the line into callousness.

> "And you are NOT going to be able to buy stock in this."

Not today, no. But at some point in the future you will be.

> "OK, maybe I went over the top..."

Apology accepted. By the way, my father has total renal failure...and he's not diabetic, not overweight, and hasn't taken a drink of alchohol in the past 30 years.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 6:29:37 PM , Rating: 2
I'm very sorry to here about your father masher2, and I deeply apologize if anything I said was hurtful in any way. The point I am trying to make is in defense of people like your father, who really need an organ transplant. See, we are on the same side!


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 7:02:58 PM , Rating: 2
>> "And you are NOT going to be able to buy stock in this."

> "Not today, no. But at some point in the future you will be.

So, you want to buy stock in an animal farm slaughterhouse for human organs? I guess that would be where the profit is made, I just think it's funny that you want to start talking about buying stock in this when it is surely decades from being a reality!! This is research people! Do you have any concept of how long this is going to take to come to any kind of real fruition? Maybe by the time we need one, which is great, but let's not talk stocks just yet.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 2:57:27 AM , Rating: 2
> "So, you want to buy stock in an animal farm slaughterhouse for human organs?"

I most certainly would. I'd even be happy if I took a loss on such stocks, if it helped to finance further research. It'd certainly be a more worthwhile contribution than one made to most current charitable foundations.

I'm curious. Given the tone of your remarks, do you think that killing animals for their meat is "wrong"?

> "[this] is surely decades from being a reality!! "

Scientific research is difficult to predict. This could be 50 years away from realization, or it could be only 10. Given most biotech venture capital firms start up 5-10 years before their product comes to market, we could potentially be less than five years away from being able to "buy stock" in it. Certainly there's nothing ridiculous about bringing up the possibility today.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By wrekd on 4/1/2007 4:33:55 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
do you think that killing animals for their meat is "wrong"?


This is an old topic so my post will largely be ignored however; humans are animals.

humans are animals
animals = meat
humans = meat

Is it wrong to kill humans for meat?

Just because humans long ago divinely declared the right to use and abuse our environment at a whim, does not make is so.

And to the person who basically claimed 1,000,000 sheep < 1 human

STFU


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 3:06:15 AM , Rating: 2
I haven't taken any of your remarks personally and, if you're an intern or in residency at an urban hospital, I can certainly see how you'd develop such a skewed version of reality. But you're still not seeing the big picture here.

While many cases of early organ failure are lifestyle-related, the fact remains that we all die at some point. "Death from natural causes" is really nothing more than systemic failure of multiple organs due to old age. With research such as the above, we will not only be able to help those who have a single organ fail early in life, but eventually will be able to extend life itself, perhaps indefinitely.

I doubt I'll be around to benefit from this, but my children and theirs will. I think that's a tremendous legacy to bequeath upon them. What about you?


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 10:56:59 AM , Rating: 2
I disagree completely. I think transplant surgery should and will continue to be done only as a last resort. Other therapies will take a much larger role in extending our lifespan, which I'm all for. You are the one not see the "big picture" outside of transplant surgery.

What do you do for a living? I wonder how you feel you have a better view of healthcare and scientific research, both of which I have done and am doing as a profession.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 11:30:33 AM , Rating: 2
> "Other therapies will take a much larger role in extending our lifespan..."

So far, no therapies exist for extending maximum lifespan. Chromosomal transcription and other errors accumulate at a steady pace, and old age results. While a drug-based therapy could theoretically help here, the most promising approach at the moment is simply wholesale organ replacement.

> "I wonder how you feel you have a better view of healthcare and scientific research, both of which I have done and am doing as a profession"

If you're a radiologist intern, I doubt you've done any real research. Myself, I've been in research for nearly 20 years, though not within the medical field. And while I appreciate your sarcasm, I have to point out that your original statement that "most" people bring organ failure upon themselves, I quickly disproved with actual statistics, and you yourself agreed your statement was off base. Most people may bring liver failure upon themselves...but thats a small piece of the total picture.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 11:55:20 AM , Rating: 2
I'm a post-doctoral scholar right now you knit-wit, and I have done extensive basic science research. You have no idea what you're talking about.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 12:14:18 PM , Rating: 2
> "I'm a post-doctoral scholar right now you knit-wit...you have no idea what you're talking about"

Congratulations; I was a post-doc 20 years ago. As for "not knowing what I'm talking about", unlike you, I know enough to realize that organs grown from a patients own stem cells won't require immunosuppressive therapy. Given my research isn't even in the medical field, what does that say about you?


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 3:55:17 PM , Rating: 2
Are we talking about organs grown from their own stem cells? No. Again you go and make a brand new argument out of thin air. This article is about animal tissue in some freakish chimera with random human cells. This research holds promise, but you again are jumping decades ahead in time, and continue to think organ transplantation is the best thing since sliced bread.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 4:45:29 PM , Rating: 2
> "Are we talking about organs grown from their own stem cells? No. Again you go and make a brand new argument out of thin air..."

Good god, this is pathetic. Read the article man:
quote:
Ultimately, stem cells would be taken from the donor and injected into a sheep's fetus. After a lamb is born in about two months, the heart, lungs, liver and brain could all be compatible with the donor...
For someone who claims to have gone through medical school, you know surprising litle about medicine.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 8:26:31 PM , Rating: 2
OK, I didn't read the whole article. I just assumed it would take several years for a patient's own stem cells to go from injection to transplantable organ, making the whole venture too long to be practical, as the patient would likely already be dead by the time the organ was fit for transplant. That is interesting that he says it would only take two months.

Am I supposed to have learned about this guy's research while in medical school? They cover a lot, but not everything, chap. As I said, I'm very confident with my knowledge base, as I said above I scored the maximum of 99 on both Step 1 and 2, so THERE!


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 8:04:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:

When you emphasise animal rights to the point of detracting from humanity, then you cross the line into callousness.

Wha? You have totally mangled my words and my argument. Please go back and read everything I have said. Do you want to see animals killed by the millions to put a few more years on a crack addiction? I hope not. That is the example I would like you to think of when you look at the animals we will need to slaughter; and don't doubt it, we will definitely give all the cocaine and crack addicts all the hearts, lungs, and whatever else they need if this research goes anywhere. Personally, I think energy would be much better spent on meeting the psychiatric / social needs of these patients!


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By encryptkeeper on 3/29/2007 12:20:24 PM , Rating: 2
Wow. You are a complete ass. The bulk of people who get organ transplants get them because the took poor care of themselves, that is a fact.

Where did you get that 'fact', off of one of Rush Limbaugh's dittoheads? Do you REALLY think they constantly give livers to people who have ruined them because of drinking, or because of cancer or injury? Do you think people who eat horribly, are morbidly obese and get heart disease go through heart after heart, ruining one after another? Or do you think they go into generally healthy patients who have accidents or even genetic deficiencies who had no control over heart failure? If I ever carry an organ donor card, I'll make sure it includes a cause not to give any organs to arswihart.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 12:48:59 PM , Rating: 1
Yes they do. I have been in the Transplant Unit at UPMC Presby here in Pittsburgh on my medical student rotations. Yes almost all of the liver transplants are for alcoholics. I'm not making this stuff up you guys, just trying to bring some perspective to the issue.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/29/2007 1:44:23 PM , Rating: 2
> "Yes almost all of the liver transplants are for alcoholics..."

For past alchoholics, not present ones. So what's your point? This is just transplant type out of hundreds...and even in this particular case, does the person deserve death, simply because they made a mistake earlier in life? And how do you reconcile your barbaric views with your Hippocratic Oath? I suspect its because, rather than being a physician, you're actually an orderly with PETA affiliations.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 1:59:57 PM , Rating: 3
Nope, many patients came to the OR and had to detox before they got their transplant, amazingly, they let them do this.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 2:03:26 PM , Rating: 2
Forgot to mention I believe liver transplants are second to kidney for major organs, so I'm just addressing the big ones. Heart transplants are indeed rare, and this breakthrough would obviously have a huge impact in this area.

No I'm not saying anyone deserves to suffer. Its just sick to see people who have basically brought a disease on themselves go snatching up all the organs, while people with genetic disorders, and so on, go without them.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By encryptkeeper on 3/29/2007 2:50:46 PM , Rating: 2
I definitely don't want you to take care of me if I ever end up in the UMPC, you seem to be on DT all day instead of caring for patients. Further proof you are either a liar, a poor doctor or both.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 3/29/2007 3:05:18 PM , Rating: 2
Suggest you leave the medical field right away. You'll find most of the people that you will be paid to help will have caused what every the problem is that is illing them... Skateboard - broken bone from falling, Mom bring in a baby with liver problems - was Mom drinking while with child? She will not tell. 99% of overdose self inflicted (attempt of murder for the other 1% - yes guessed on percentage.) An electrician electrocutes himself while working on a power line, alive but hurt badly, says I knew better than to go up under those conditions, or touch that. A man near drinks himself to death every night because his little baby died in his arms and he could do nothing to help. Are you going to be upset and not help these people, after all it’s their fault. Point is we are humans, humans do dumb things. So leave the medical field if you are not going to like trying to help everyone. You should not judge why someone is where they are needing your help, but help them improve were they are and maybe give them a better future.things. So leave the medical field if you are not going to like trying to help everyone. You should not judge why someone is where they are but help them improve were they are.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 6:54:30 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, which is why I'm going into Radiology, I just look at pictures all day, it's great. I don't have to see any patients, just give a diagnosis and I'm done. I have enormous respect for doctors who are able to put up with all the crap they do these days: insurance companies not paying them jack, patients being non-compliant, being forced to practice defensive medicine or risk losing their license.

You are very idealistic, but I agree with you. After going to medical school, I find that I cannot possibly imagine going into general medicine. Healthcare in real life is way worse than you even make it out to be. Thank god for those doctors, especially surgeons, who are selfless enough to do such a crumby job. And people still complain that they are paid too much. That's outrageous. CEO's of huge companies are paid too much.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 3/30/2007 10:15:11 AM , Rating: 2
There are cases for both being over and under paid. For a CEO it's pretty easy to judge his pay, if we oversimplify his job we say he gives direction to the company and creates new jobs by causing the growth of the company. So, a properly paid CEO will make a percentage of the company's income - because his actions affect the financial welfare of each employee (example of bad action - company out of business, everyone out of job, and all on his head). So, the bigger the Company the bigger the pay checks, the bigger the responsibility, the less rest they have. Yes, some have to big base salary – majority of the income should come at the end of the year, after profit is figured out…no profit no pay.
A Doctor has similar issues, but patient by patient - oversimplify his job: gives health advice and prolongs patients’ life. Good choice leads to health, bad to possible death. Problem is how do you measure what life is worth? Not so simple. CEO is easy to measure - look at business generated. For a Doctor you can not just look at lives saved and say they are worth $xx.xx. So, your CEO is not overpaid, nor do I think a Doctor is over paid, well maybe a psychologist and radiologist ;) . Thought I would agree the insurance companies are out of control causing harm to both Doctors and patient. Many people do not realize the treatment they receive is because the insurance company says if X treat with Y...and not because the Doctor thinks/believes or knows it is correct, many times it’s not the best treatment but something that will get results or generates the most money for the insurance company. People forget the health industry is a business and run like any other business: looking for the biggest profit.... That scares me.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 11:08:01 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, and doctors and patients always get the short end of the stick. Health insurance company CEO's are probably the most overpaid, and frankly evil, people on the face of the earth. Hospital CEO's can be bad too, but the insurance industry is MUCH more evil, they are completely self-interested, and they go putting ads on the radio and in newspapers about how THEY are providing your care. Doctors, nurses and social workers are the ones doing almost all the the work, and they take the smallest piece of the pie.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 11:40:12 AM , Rating: 2
> "[the health industry] is completely self-interested..."

This coming from a doctor who could care less about patients or having to deal with them, and openly admits he chose the profession simply because it "pays the bills"? Talk about the pot calling the kettle black!


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 8:31:24 PM , Rating: 2
Guilty as charged! But I'm part of the solution. I'm not a pointless middleman sitting in an office dictating the patient care ("coverage") of every patient in America on a few sheets of paper (also known as a health insurance company).

I'm sure you have some argumentative little quip coming, but I'll take a vow not to look at it, as this thread is taking too much of my time! You are a real nuisance you know that?


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By slacker57 on 3/29/2007 2:01:42 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, for as good as the Pitt Med School is supposed to be, they apparently don't teach good bedside manner. Get a sense of humor (for the "buy stock now" comment) and lighten up a little bit.

Good thing I went to St. Claire out in the suburbs when I got my appendix taken out. If I had come into UPMC you might have left it in because I hadn't been taking care of my vestigial organs well enough!


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 2:05:11 PM , Rating: 1
haha, that was funny, ok so I was cranky when I read the first comment, but this has turned into an interesting discussion nonetheless


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By encryptkeeper on 3/29/07, Rating: 0
RE: Awesome, BUT...
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 3/29/2007 3:33:00 PM , Rating: 2
He can not be a Steelers fan. Steelers fans are hard core heavy drinkers. They are not kind to their kidneys and livers.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 7:17:55 PM , Rating: 2
Why am I an asshole? Oh, because you are ignorant, ok that figures.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By raskren on 3/29/2007 4:31:54 PM , Rating: 2
What's your real name? I'll have my wife (who also works at Presby) look you up in Exchange. Then we'll have the truth.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 6:25:31 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I want people to publicly berate me, I'll give you my full contact info. Look, I am a doctor and I graduated from Pitt. Please don't take my comments the wrong way. I'm sure I could have said what I said in a better way. See the only other person in the healthcare field's post above (the ICU nurse), and she is also the only person to agree with my sentiments.

Basically, I would have never thought what I think today about people and the way they care for themselves, which is the point I'm trying to drive home here. America is just like all the people posting on this thread. They think they can do whatever they want and go to their doctor and say, "what's wrong with me doc, what's the cure," and everything will be fine. It puts an enormous stress on our healthcare system and is a HUGE reason why it is so broken today, in addition to blood thirsty insurance companies and defensive medicine practiced by docs.

I'm not saying I don't have any sympathy for alcoholics or cocaine addicts or obese people or anything like that. But their choices are driving up everyone's cost of healthcare. It's basically akin to someone driving an SUV with the energy crisis / global warming issues we are facing.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 3:15:47 AM , Rating: 1
> "the ICU nurse...she is also the only person to agree with my sentiments..."

How do you know its a "she"? Didn't you see 'Meet the Parents'?

> "They think they can do whatever they want and go to their doctor and say, "what's wrong with me doc, what's the cure," and everything will be fine."

Of course that's impossible today. But wouldn't it be great if it was? Thanks to such research, at some point in the future it will be.

> "I'm not saying I don't have any sympathy for alcoholics or cocaine addicts or obese people... "

No. You just want them to die, so that your healthcare costs will stay low, and so that a sheep may live.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 10:25:08 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
How do you know its a "she"? Didn't you see 'Meet the Parents'?

Because I've met her in another thread, my son.

>> "They think they can do whatever they want and go to their doctor and say, "what's wrong with me doc, what's the cure," and everything will be fine."

>Of course that's impossible today. But wouldn't it be great if it was? Thanks to such research, at some point in the future it will be.

You have proven to be one of the blithering idiots I was talking about. You think a transplant later in life for everyone is the way to go? In my 2nd post above, I outlined the problems with getting a transplant in the first place. Most people who get one are on death's door to begin with, and usually only live a few more years, and they must take lots of immunosuppresive drugs on top of everything, and deal with infections that come along with taking those drugs, etc., etc., etc. Bottomline, you don't want to have a transplant, and for these organs, coming from an animal, I imagine the pitfalls will be even more numerous. It is not something I want to have my doctor tell me is an option, EVER. You are always going to have to take good care of yourself. You seem to be thinking someday humans will be more powerful than god, that will never happen my friend, NEVER.

>> "I'm not saying I don't have any sympathy for alcoholics or cocaine addicts or obese people... "

> No. You just want them to die, so that your healthcare costs will stay low, and so that a sheep may live.

Yeah, I do want people who no good for society and instead put a drain on it and corrupt others around them and who have CAUSED THERE OWN DEATH to pass on, there's no reason for everyone to keep living as long as possible, especially when they bring it on themselves and contribute nothing to society. I would definitely like to see an innocent sheep live instead. Please think a little more critically about your asinine statements before you speak.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By Seemonkeyscanfly on 3/30/2007 10:50:07 AM , Rating: 3
To anyone still not getting it, think of your body like a car stock body parts are better - the one's you are born with are the best choice. Keep them in good shape = live longer, live happier, do more, in car terms holds value. Use foreign parts (transplants) live on meds and in bed (more often) since you will most like be sick from something caused by the transplant or med., in car terms heap of junk.
Is that a proper analogy for you arswihart?


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/30/2007 11:10:48 AM , Rating: 2
Couldn't have said it better myself Seemonkey. Glad you have seen the light, now if masher2 would take his head out of his ass.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By masher2 (blog) on 3/30/2007 11:45:38 AM , Rating: 2
> "You have proven to be one of the blithering idiots...I outlined the problems with getting a transplant...they must take lots of immunosuppressive drugs..."

You have proven to be unable to read either the source article or any of my comments. Organs grown via this approach with the patients own stem cells would be genetically identical to the recipient. No immunosuppressive drugs would be required. The "pitfalls" of current organ transplants would all be avoided.

Seriously, this topic is old hat in medical research circles. I'm really starting to doubt you ever went through medical school at all.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By ninjit on 3/29/2007 12:43:00 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, if you didn't take care of yourself, you wouldn't even be on the waiting list for a new organ.

Because of the scarcity, hospitals limit transplants to those who will take care of them (i.e. not to alcoholics and drug-absuers)

The organ is a gift from the donor and/or their family, and they want to know it's going to a good home


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By arswihart on 3/29/2007 7:21:10 PM , Rating: 2
Funny you say that. You've gotten to the core of my argument. This is what they TRY to do and what the public thinks happens, but it's far from the truth. Please go get informed on this, along with everyone else on this freaking thread. I think I and the the nurse above are the only people remotely familiar with the situation as it really is. Everyone here, as I said in my very first post, has little idea what they are talking about.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By Chase Tacos on 4/3/2007 8:22:31 AM , Rating: 2
Fuck You.

No one know anything about what they are talking about, just a bunch of blithering idiots.

Thats why your comments are rated to hell, because your a DICK

this one is going to be rated to hell just as well but at least I got to say what I had to say


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By MrBungle123 on 3/28/2007 7:14:49 PM , Rating: 2
"After a lamb is born in about two months, the heart, lungs, liver and brain could all be compatible with the [Human] donor."

A human brain in a sheeps body!? Call me crazy but that seems to be taking this a bit far. Our cognitive ability is what really sets us apart from animals, if you're going to use animals to farm human organs... fine but do it in something that doesn't think, problem solve, and have emotions on our level.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By therealnickdanger on 3/28/2007 8:35:09 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, I'm not quite sure how that works either... Brain transfer? Maybe it's just another method of generating human brain tissue for study. Whatever it is, I'm glad they chose sheep instead of sharks. Those smart sharks would eat Sammy L. in a heartbeat.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By kd4yum on 3/28/2007 8:36:04 PM , Rating: 2
.
quote: "After a lamb is born in about two months, the heart, lungs, liver and brain could all be compatible with the [Human] donor."

Oh, I didn't read it as *a human brain in a sheep's body*. No I just figured the brain would have enough human cells to survive through the transplant. It's up to the recipient to decide if he/she wants a sheep brain. Who knows? They might be a good source for roquefort cheeze, wool, and other products.
sigh.
.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By SiN on 3/29/2007 4:05:39 AM , Rating: 2
Really! I'd imagine that the organs are that of sheep. Even though the stem cells are human, the sheeps brain would still be a sheeps brain. I could be wrong, but i think this has more to do with the body accepting the organ. Not making a human organ in the sheep.

I could be wrong, but anyway, even if the sheep was a little more "aware" it hasn't got a thumb so i don't think we've to worry - Apart from a massive viral outbreak on the level we've never seen before in humans. Scary stuff, the Romans drank from lead pipes to better their lives, hope 21st century man doesn't kill himself off in order to jump a waiting line (sensitivity required - i know people die waiting).


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By Hare on 3/29/2007 8:30:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
No I just figured the brain would have enough human cells to survive through the transplant. It's up to the recipient to decide if he/she wants a sheep brain. Who knows?

I'm laughing out loud. Seriously. How can you replace the brain and still call the person the same? Shouldn't it be the other way around? It's our brains that make us who we are so the idea of "brain transplant" is ridiculous. A body transplant? :P


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By iNGEN on 3/29/2007 1:50:21 PM , Rating: 2
They are referring to the use of brain tissue for treatment of illnesses like Alzheimer's, CJDs, Parkinson's Disease, etc. Even though I'm not aware of brain tissue being actively used to treat patients for any of those illnesses, their have been study trials. Diagnosed with Parkinson's myself I track new ideas for treatment. Being able to grow biologically and morally "clean" stem tissues would be a Godsend.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By tygrus on 3/30/2007 9:54:01 AM , Rating: 2
Some neurological (ie. brain related) diseases like Parkinson's and epilepsy are caused by a small area of brain tissue not functioning correctly. I'm not sure of the capabilities but at the most they could transplant a small area/cells. You could not transplant large areas or whole brain. Could also be used to harvest chemicals/hormones found in the brain, or cells that correctly produce a lacking chemical/hormone.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By Googer on 3/28/2007 9:58:32 PM , Rating: 5
Not a real big breakthrough.... http://www.adultsheepfinder.com/


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By GoatMonkey on 3/29/2007 8:36:36 AM , Rating: 2
I don't want to know where that link goes.


RE: Awesome, BUT...
By nordicpc on 3/29/2007 9:53:00 AM , Rating: 2
Click it, seriously, freaking hilarious! Everyone at work is all "wtf is he laughing at..."