backtop


Print 69 comment(s) - last by chuckecheeze.. on Oct 16 at 4:17 AM

You won't hear Steve Ballmer say "I love this DEAL!" but Samsung's agreement to pay licensing fees is a big win

"Under my thumb
The girl who once had me down
Under my thumb
The girl who once pushed me around."

-- Mick Jagger and Keith Richards of The Rolling Stones, 1966

The iconic track by The Rolling Stones comes to mind as news of Microsoft Corp.'s (MSFT) new licensing deal with Samsung Electronics Comp., Ltd. (SEO 005930) broke today.  After all, Samsung is top seller of smart phones powered by Google Inc.'s (GOOG) Android OS, which quite literally has Microsoft's Windows Phone 7 smart phone OS down in sales.

But as much as Android has pushed Microsoft around in the market, Microsoft now has Android exact where it wants it -- under its thumb.  It announced [press release] today that after negotiations, Samsung had agreed to enter an intellectual-property cross-licensing agreement.

The old saying goes "you'll attract more flies with honey than vinegar".  While Microsoft's licensing pressure might not seem so sweet to some, it's at least a gentler approach than Apple, Inc. (AAPL), which has sued [1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8] the top three Android manufacturers (Samsung, HTC Corp. (SEO:066570), and recent Google acquisition Motorola) seeking to ban their handsets sales with nary a mention of a licensing settlement.

Indeed Microsoft's approach won over HTC, who was facing a lawsuit from Apple at the time, and now has won over Samsung, the fastest growing handset maker on the market, and the top maker of Android smart phones.

Reportedly the HTC deal was worth $10 USD per handset sold.  For the Samsung deal Microsoft reportedly offered a $15 USD per handset fee, while Samsung countered with a $10 USD per handset fee.  It seems likely that the pair met in the middle with a $12-13 fee.

Samsung and HTC both make Windows Phone 7 handsets, though, those devices haven't sold anywhere near the number of units as their flagship Android devices.

Of Android's "big three", only Google subsidiary Motorola remains without a licensing deal for Microsoft's intellectual property.  The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Microsoft used the announcement as a chance to issue a request/threat to Google/Motorola pressuring it to license.

For Google the situation could be worse.  It still will likely be able to turn a profit on its handsets and it will be free to focus on Android's other legal foes like Oracle Corp. (ORCL) (who is suing Google for Android's use of Java) and Apple.  But it's also not a very pleasant situation as Microsoft's licensing fees tack between $10 and $15 in additional costs onto each handset sold.  Those costs make Google's platform less attractive and competitive offerings more attractive.

Microsoft's Windows Phone Division President, Andy Lees, gushed about the deal, commenting, "Microsoft and Samsung see the opportunity for dramatic growth in Windows Phone and we’re investing to make that a reality. Microsoft believes in a model where all our partners can grow and profit based on our platform."

And Samsung tried to spin the news enthusiastically, with Samsung mobile devices global marketing VP Dr. Won-Pyo Hong remarking, "Through the cross-licensing of our respective patent portfolios, Samsung and Microsoft can continue to bring the latest innovations to the mobile industry. We are pleased to build upon our long history of working together to open a new chapter of collaboration beginning with our Windows Phone "Mango" launch this fall."

However, make no mistake, Microsoft is the winner here, and at the end of the day Google, and to a lesser extent, Samsung, are the losers.  Sure Microsoft would love Windows Phone 7 to be the kind of ringing success it thus far hasn't been.  That would give it all sorts of auxiliary revenue streams -- say from data mining and app sales.  But at the end of the day Android succeeding is almost as valuable to Microsoft, as it will get a sweet licensing cut of virtually every Android device sold -- without having to go to the hassle and expense of actually designing, advertising, and selling the product.


Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

What IP are they using of MS's?
By gwem557 on 9/28/2011 3:54:59 PM , Rating: 3
I don't understand the hold Microsoft has here -- what are the phone makers using that MS owns the patent to?




RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By cjohnson2136 on 9/28/2011 3:58:12 PM , Rating: 3
I am kind of curious too because Microsoft being a software company, I wouldn't imagine having a lot of hardware patents. If it is a software patent then wouldn't Microsoft take this to Google?


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By Da W on 9/28/2011 4:03:30 PM , Rating: 4
Icons, OS, memory management, power management, GPU usage, they DO have patents on hardware too, who knows, they got a gazillion patents on everything tech. Most of them might have no value, but you will never know that unless you challenge them in court. Hence the merit of Microsoft strategy. Plus they enter into cross-liscencing deal, meaning HTC/Samsung/other won't sue back Microsoft eventually.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By cjohnson2136 on 9/28/2011 4:05:58 PM , Rating: 2
Hmmm the stuff you mentions makes sense I just figured some of that stuff would deal more with Android and not the phone makers. To bad they won't tell which patents were used to push this cross-license


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/2011 4:16:46 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
To bad they won't tell which patents were used to push this cross-license


Actually if you think about it, that's another brilliant move. While Apple is running around blasting to the world exactly how to avoid patent disputes with them, Microsoft was way more subtle and opportunistic. Whatever these 7 patents are that Google infringed on, they must be very specific and key to the operation of the Android platform. Not broad and generic like Apple's claims. And Microsoft is being very tight lipped about the whole thing because, well, that's just smarter. They wait for you to screw up, and come to you with a deal that everyone can live with and makes them a lot of money.

I just LOVE that his was handled out of court, like men. I'm so sick of the soap opera that is Apple vs The World.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By quiksilvr on 9/28/11, Rating: 0
RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By ipay on 9/28/2011 7:53:07 PM , Rating: 2
WP7 is licensed for $15 per handset, so Android is still slightly cheaper. At least, if that's all the licensing costs they have - if they end up sending another 5-10 to Apple after all the lawsuits settle it could end up being more expensive.


By PrezWeezy on 9/28/2011 6:17:12 PM , Rating: 5
Because Android is open source the phone makers do not have an agreement with Google which includes an indemnification clause. In infringement you can be held accountable even if you are using someone else's software which infringes upon the holders IP. An indemnification clause in the license agreement means that the maker of the software will take full accountability. So without that, anyone who uses Android and implements the questioned features can be sued for it. That is the reason why when you get an Enterprise License agreement from Microsoft that clause is included. Otherwise large corporate users who install Windows could be sued for any patent Microsoft is accused of infringing upon.


By Darksurf on 10/3/2011 12:01:43 PM , Rating: 2
You'd think this stuff was all common knowledge or tech by now. These patents should be removed as all they do is hinder tech growth. I hate patents! They were intended to provide security to the little man from the big corporations.

Now all it really is, is a way for big corporations to rape each other. It has become an exploited tool that is now doing the opposite of what it was intended for.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By JasonMick (blog) on 9/28/2011 3:58:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I don't understand the hold Microsoft has here -- what are the phone makers using that MS owns the patent to?

That's the really funny thing -- Microsoft and the Android phonemakers have never revealed what patent(s) exactly Microsoft is using to leverage these forced licensing arrangement. They must be pretty good, otherwise Samsung would likely have fought it as it did Apple's patents.

It could get interesting if Google/Motorola continue to refuse licensing. That could force Microsoft's hand to sue, which in turn would reveal what the patents in question are.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By gregpxc on 9/28/2011 4:35:33 PM , Rating: 3
Like someone else said above me, Microsoft isn't blowing infringements drastically out of proportion (which I'm sure they own enough to do so if they so choose). And to be quite honest, I don't think many companies would push back against Windows. Whether they like it or not, Windows and Microsoft make them money all the time, not just in the mobile world, so making Microsoft angry with them would surely be a step in the wrong direction. It's almost like they're forced to give in to Microsoft because of how much power they have in these companies. They rarely ask much of companies and when they do it's a respectable amount, unlike Apple who is simply trying to shut people down for the most ridiculous of things.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By ipay on 9/28/2011 7:46:06 PM , Rating: 4
FAT filesystem is probably one. I'm pretty sure phones still use that for removable storage and MS has sued over it before.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By nafhan on 9/29/2011 8:35:58 AM , Rating: 2
Yep. Most phones do use it. The funny part? Compatibility with Windows is really the only reason to use FAT...


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By Jaybus on 9/29/2011 4:40:30 PM , Rating: 2
I suspect FAT is a huge part of their case. It also explains why this is happening now, as opposed to a few years ago. Most of the patents having to do with FAT were issued in the mid 1990's, so will be expiring over the next few years. So the Android phone makers will pay licensing for a couple or three years and then renegotiate when FAT patents expire.


By fteoath64 on 9/29/2011 4:45:53 AM , Rating: 1
"It could get interesting if Google/Motorola continue to refuse licensing. That could force Microsoft's hand to sue, which in turn would reveal what the patents in question are."

MS would not dare because it would EXPOSE their scam in this bluff. If they did, they would likely lose and exposed court records will still expose the scam. Why would people do business with a company behaving like this ?. There are plenty of Open Source sw to be used out there, MS never did try to sue Linux Foundation before. And would Apple try have bounded by BSD license in OSX ?.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/2011 4:04:38 PM , Rating: 5
Microsoft is essentially leasing to HTC and Samsung the use of their patent portfolio. Specifically the 7 Microsoft owned patents that pertains to the Android operating system.

In other words instead of lashing out like a spoiled redheaded brat (Apple), Microsoft decided to spare the court system of this silliness and make a bunch of money to boot.

This is an example of how business SHOULD be done. Probably why the whole world runs on Microsoft and Apple subsists on consumer toys.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By gwem557 on 9/28/2011 4:07:02 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
This is an example of how business SHOULD be done. Probably why the whole world runs on Microsoft and Apple subsists on consumer toys.


Oh geez. This'll have Swashtika up in arms.


By cjohnson2136 on 9/28/2011 4:07:54 PM , Rating: 4
Who cares about the Swashbuckler


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/2011 4:10:20 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Oh geez. This'll have Swashtika up in arms.


How much you wanna bet him or MacDevDipsh#t will try to counter with Apples "market cap"? lol.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By cjohnson2136 on 9/28/2011 4:11:41 PM , Rating: 3
I won't take that bet because I know you are right. Swashie will probably also try to explain how MSFT is using a dying business model and will go out of business.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/2011 4:23:59 PM , Rating: 2
Ahaha yeah. Because you know, smartphones and tablets represent a "paradigm shift" in the way the world works, and Apple is taking the lead!!! Microsoft "failed" and now they are spiraling down the drain.

That sound close enough?


By cjohnson2136 on 9/29/2011 11:38:00 AM , Rating: 2
That sounds dead on


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By Pirks on 9/29/2011 11:52:26 AM , Rating: 1
Apple grew past MS even profit and revenue wise, so yeah, there's something behind Swash words, something called Big Money. I wouldn't care about Swash just like you guys do but his words are supported by Big Money that Apple makes these days. You do not want to argue with Big Money, do ya guys? That'd look stupid to me. Arguing with Swash does not look stupid, but arguing with Apple's profits and revenues that surpassed even MS's... that's err... not very smart, to say politely. Money talks, you know.

And I'm not talking about market cap here. Just revenues, profits and cash reserves. By all three metrics Apple has beaten MS and the gap between them continues to grow. Not a good sign for MS, IMHO.

Apple's outlandish market cap is just an insult added to the injury. It's like spitting on the body of your fallen enemy. Enemy doesn't care, it won't hurt but ewww it looks nasty :(


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By bennyg on 9/30/2011 2:46:50 AM , Rating: 2
While you can't pirate an iPod/Phone/Pad and therefore can charge whatever you want, most people will eventually get sick of toys and gimmicks. However every computer still needs an OS. Plus Microsoft kicked a massive own goal with Vista which meant the world was pirating XP for 5 extra years.

Post-Iphone 4S/5 sillyness and hysteria, I'd be selling off Apple shares if I had any, their market cap is wildly overvalued and they are the kind of stocks that get pummelled as soon as real panic starts (see Tech Wreck). I'm not sure their market penetration is as solid as everyone thinks (especially since their R&D budget seems to be spent on nothing but lawyers of late)

But then again I was saying in 2001 there was gonna be a widespread revaluation and it took a fair while to happen. So, meh.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By Pirks on 9/30/2011 10:18:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'd be selling off Apple shares if I had any, their market cap is wildly overvalued and they are the kind of stocks that get pummeled as soon as real panic starts
The Techie Apple Conundrum (TAC)

The TAC arises often on sites such as Daily Tech because the attraction of Apple products, and hence Apple's huge success as a company, is dependent on features and aspects of product design invisible to almost all Techies. Thus Apples success is mysterious, vexing and ultimately challenging.

Techies for example often focus on feature lists and technical specifications and compare one such list to another and look at comparative prices and cannot understand that someone would pay more for an "inferior" spec.

This of course misses a critical aspect of Apple product design, one of the keys to the success of Apple in the consumer market, which is that for many (perhaps most) consumers having fewer technical features is a positive thing. This seems paradoxical to Techies but this is because they fail to comprehend what the actual experience for the vast majority of consumers of hi-tech products actually is - which is bad.

Consumers constantly encounter products that don't work as advertised, products that squeeze so many functions into an item that using it for its main purposes is dreadfully complex, products that even when their function should be simple (i.e. to play music, to play a DVD, to surf the web, to write emails) require a thick user manual (many of which which are often written by engineers and are thus unhelpful).

Most hi-tec products are user-unfriendly for most consumers. But not to Techies because they have technical knowledge and so can cope with poor/arcane design. In fact Techies like such products because they find technical challenges fun and because it makes them useful (they are always helping people solve their technical problems) and thus boosts their self esteem.

Some kit, almost all non-Apple desktop computers for example, are not just difficult and poorly designed but are positively scary for almost all consumers. Many non-Apple desktop computers seem very complex to operate, go wrong for no clearly understood reasons and worst of all seem to be under constant attack. Watching someone move from a non-Apple desktop computer to a Mac you can often see them slowly losing their awful, and most of the times paralysing, fear of infection and attack. As the fear fades the pleasure of using their computer increases dramatically and people start to love their computers rather than secretly hating them. Thus another mac-head is born.

The emblematic product for TAC is the iPad. Here is a product that comes on instantly, looks and feels gorgeous, feels fast, is easy to operate and does (in a fantastically convenient form factor) most of what most people do most of the time on their computer (ie browse the web, send emails, watch movies, read stuff and look at and share photos). Plus it has two huge benefits for most consumers. First it doesn't feel like a computer - this is a good thing for most people because most people's experience of using computers has been bad. Secondly it feels very safe because of Apple's curated computing model, and most users of computers have previously felt unsafe most of the time.

The very reasons that make the iPad such a huge success are the very reasons that Techies don't get it. If one product above all induces TAC its the iPad. Techies say "but Apple has an iron grip and is killing our freedoms" (people want safety much more than some obscure technical freedom), "the iPad doesn't have [insert any number of features that consumers don't care about]", "its not a real computer" (exactly).

So the continuing, relentless and accelerating success of Apple seems almost inexplicable to most Techies, "how could such products be so successful?"

The answer Techies come up are fairly predictable:

- Apple's voodoo marketing: Apple is pulling the wool over the consumer eyes (sometimes this is blamed on media hype).

- Apple's evil lock in: Apple has a locked down and closed platform, once sucked in people can't leave.

- Apple consumers and users are idiots: Fooled by marketing and glitzy packaging the sheep can be sold everything.

Because Techies believe that these are the real reason people buy Apple products (other than the more obvious reason which is that consumers actually like them a lot) Techies also believe that this state of affairs cannot possibly last and therefore the final piece of the Techie response to Apple falls into place. Deranged by TAC Techies often come up with the most delusional statement of all - Apple is doomed .


(C) Tony Swash, June 2010

Reprinted here from the Daily Tech post at http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=18738... without the author's permission.


By chuckecheeze on 10/16/2011 4:17:04 AM , Rating: 2
This is why their devices should ditch any microsoft windows compatibility crap. This is microsoft engaging in rackeetering.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By Murst on 9/28/2011 4:06:44 PM , Rating: 3
Whatever Microsoft has, it is good enough to prevent Google from indemnifying their OEMs. If Google was sure there was nothing that was infringing, or it wanted to fully protect their OEMs, it would indemnify them when they use Android. The OEMs see that Google isn't willing to go that far, so they have to watch out for themselves and pay these fees.

If Google really wants to be in mobile what Microsoft is in desktop, they will have to protect their OEMs, just like MS does.


By Aloonatic on 9/28/2011 4:12:36 PM , Rating: 2
Well, if you think about it, MS must hold a lot of patents and IP in this area.

Even though MS are still dragging their heels with WP7, and may have appeared to be late to the party.. In reality, they've been making smartphones, and touch screen (all be it where you had to touch it with a pointy stick) smart-phones for a long time, before Apple came along with Windows mobile. They they've got theit Windows CE devices that have been around for ages too.

Maybe they are just being smart and asking for less in these settlements, as long as the companies who are having to pay them to keep quiet, to avoid the negative press that Apple are getting, who are rapidly developing a reputation for being the bullying, abusive, dominant (not the cool little upstart guy any more) company, which is the opposite f what they've worked so hard to achieve too.

Bit rambling, sorry :)


By borismkv on 9/28/2011 4:32:25 PM , Rating: 3
Exchange operability is probably a big part of it. Even Apple has to pay MS for the ability to work properly with Active Sync.


RE: What IP are they using of MS's?
By Zuul on 9/28/2011 4:45:59 PM , Rating: 2
As I explained in another discussion on this - the reason why MS and others can go after the handset manufacturers is Google's licensing agreement for Android does not indemnify and hold the partner (in this case, Samsung) free from, among other things, intellectual property and patent infringements (for the sake of this post, i'll just call it "IP").

Basically, if someone (in this case Microsoft) goes after a user/partner of Android and accuses them of USING something that infringes on their IP, Google has not said they will protect and defend their partner/user from such claims. It's a similar in concept to being caught in possession of stolen property.

Most licensing agreements people don't read and simply click 'accept'. If you read the ones from Microsoft, Symantec, Citrix, et al., you will find that those companies say they will defend the user and hold them free from any IP claims. For example if someone sues YOU for something that MS infringes on, MS has already agreed to take the responsibility off of you and fight it on your behalf.


By sprockkets on 9/28/2011 5:26:42 PM , Rating: 2
Nobody loses.
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/2011 3:48:43 PM , Rating: 5
Samsung isn't going to eat this licensing fee, how do you figure they lose? People buying phones are. But the good news is phones are now so subsidized by the two year contract, you'll never notice an extra $10 or $20 dollars spread across 24 payments anyway.

Sorry Tony and Pirks, but this is why Microsoft is simply smarter than Apple and why they have always been the bigger company. While Apple is spending billions to sue the competition, Microsoft makes billions by working with them. Also, unlike Apple, their IP patents aren't based on pixie dust and unicorn crap, but actual solid and tangible technology.




RE: Nobody loses.
By JasonMick (blog) on 9/28/2011 3:56:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Samsung isn't going to eat this licensing fee, how do you figure they lose? People buying phones are. But the good news is phones are now so subsidized by the two year contract, you'll never notice an extra $10 or $20 dollars spread across 24 payments anyway.

True, and Microsoft did pay to develop this technology.

At the end of the day this is much more equitable than what Apple is trying to do.

As I wrote Samsung is only a loser in this deal "to a lesser extent" as -- like you said -- it will almost certainly pass the cost on to the consumer.

Google is a bit more of a loser in the arrangement, as these fees make its operating system less attractive versus alternatives like Meego or Windows Phone 7.

Still, it's got a 56 percent market share and is currently raking in big profits, so it can only feel so bad for itself.

Another way of putting your comment is:
Everybody wins, but Samsung and especially Google win a little bit less than they did before, and Microsoft wins a lot more than they did before.


RE: Nobody loses.
By Reclaimer77 on 9/28/2011 4:08:31 PM , Rating: 2
True. I wasn't calling you out or anything, no worries.

quote:
Another way of putting your comment is: Everybody wins, but Samsung and especially Google win a little bit less than they did before, and Microsoft wins a lot more than they did before.


Well that's why I'm a reader and you get paid the big bucks, now gimme an edit function so I can add that! lol


RE: Nobody loses.
By JasonMick (blog) on 9/28/2011 4:11:39 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Well that's why I'm a reader and you get paid the big bucks, now gimme an edit function so I can add that! lol
Haha, it's coming I swear... I feel your pain --that's top priority on the site redesign list.

Good comments, though on the licensing deal, you always have some interesting perspective. :)


RE: Nobody loses.
By DeluxeTea on 9/28/2011 11:11:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
this is why Microsoft is simply smarter than Apple and why they have always been the bigger company.

I bet the Apple fans will trip over each other in order to point out that Apple is the bigger company because of their "market cap". This should be fun to watch. :)

/popcorn


RE: Nobody loses.
By Tony Swash on 9/29/11, Rating: 0
RE: Nobody loses.
By cjohnson2136 on 9/29/2011 11:26:12 AM , Rating: 2
And your comparing the revenue off a computer vs the revenue off an OS. Stop comparing Apples to Oranges


RE: Nobody loses.
By Tony Swash on 9/29/2011 6:29:20 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
And your comparing the revenue off a computer vs the revenue off an OS. Stop comparing Apples to Oranges


I am just commenting on someone elses comment which compared the size of Microsoft's business to Apple's business and mistakenly thought that Microsoft was bigger. It isnt. By any metric. And the fact that Mac revenues are bigger than Windows revenues is a nice illustration of how much things have changed. Time you old fashioned guys caught up with the tech world of today rather than dreaming about yestayear.


RE: Nobody loses.
By its tom hanks on 9/29/2011 2:49:44 PM , Rating: 2
Bill gates plans on giving away 90% of his money before he dies. He's leaving his own kids with only 10 million each. Meanwhile, steve jobs wants you to pay $100 for 16gb of extra memory, instead of giving you a micro sd slot so you can buy the same memory on amazon for $40. You can throw your money stats around all day, that has nothing to do with who the smarter company is, simply which company retards like you are willing to pay more to for a logo.


RE: Nobody loses.
By Pirks on 9/29/2011 12:01:11 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
why they have always been the bigger company
Yeah, have always been, until these days when Apple's profits and revenues are bigger than MS's. Where have you been Reclaimer? Sleeping in a cave or something? Time to wake up and smell the ashes - Apple does not beat MS ONLY BY MARKET CAP anymore, it beats MS by a few other important metrics too.

No wonder Swash is laughing at us techies. It's because such delusional individuals as Reclaimer keep posting same old lunacy about MS being the "biggest". C'mon Reclaimer, stop putting us all in shame! Wake. Up.


RE: Nobody loses.
By cjohnson2136 on 9/29/2011 12:25:52 PM , Rating: 3
I don't think he means bigger as size of money. I think he means bigger like "you're the bigger man" by not stooping to their level.


RE: Nobody loses.
By Pirks on 9/29/2011 12:53:43 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah well Apple behaves like a creative pro - imaginative, ego obsessed and hysterical. Those types you know create cool music, paintings, they smoke pot, eat shrooms and are fun people in all but they are not your typical investment banker type of people.

MS is the opposite - not creative, not hysterical, no paintings, no design, no music, no cool stuff, no shrooms - it's all 100% boring suits with Windows, Server, BI, SharePoint, Word, presentations, slides, pie charts, profits reports... yawn *dozes off for a sec* ... yeah what I've been talking about? Ah, right, MS DNA. See how these guys are very different now?

When Reclaimer claims that bean counters and pie charters in MS are somehow "bigger" than hysterical creative shroom eaters in Apple - he looks like an idiot. Why? Because bean counter is not bigger than the artist, and vice versa - an artist is not bigger than a bean counter. These are just DIFFERENT personality types and we need them BOTH for proper balance in the world. Got it?


RE: Nobody loses.
By cjohnson2136 on 9/29/2011 1:05:17 PM , Rating: 2
I understand that as well. But Reclaimer is referring to the issue or license vs sue until banned.

In which case Apple is taking the effort to ban its competition where Microsoft is making money of it's competition. To me it seems like Apple is throwing a temper tantrum instead of thinking of it from a business sense to where they could make money of the situation. If MSFT and Apple where to license all Android makers to the point where it is not profitable they could take Android down that way. Which to me makes more sense instead of spending millions on lawyers.

And honestly everything you mentioned is all a perspective thing honestly creative paintings and stuff like that bore me, I could care less about what something looks like. I like to look at the code to see how it works. I have tried to look at iOS and Objective-C just have not had much time to do it.


RE: Nobody loses.
By Pirks on 9/29/2011 1:22:52 PM , Rating: 2
To me both approaches are valid. MS would sue or negotiate and get direct money infusion. Apple would just ban the infringer and get more sales this way, i.e. indirect money infusion via increased sales. I don't see any advantages of one approach over the other, they both look very similar to me. I think Apple and MS are both free to follow the approach they choose for themselves and we can't judge them. They are free businesses and are allowed to do anything within the frame of law. Why bother bashing Apple for following money making approach they chose? It's not any better or worse than MS's approach. Looks like only the dumb anti-Apple trolls bash Apple's approach. Because they are dumb trolls, not because Apple's approach is really bad or something


RE: Nobody loses.
By cjohnson2136 on 9/29/2011 1:27:12 PM , Rating: 2
See my feelings would be not to limit competition through court cases but limit them by forcing them to increase prices. I would agree that both are valid but I just simply explaining what I thought Reclaimer meant by bigger because you started talking about numbers.


RE: Nobody loses.
By Reclaimer77 on 9/29/2011 4:29:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Apple would just ban the infringer and get more sales this way, i.e. indirect money infusion via increased sales. I don't see any advantages of one approach over the other, they both look very similar to me


Because you're an idiot? Android will NOT get "banned". That solution is costly, creates huge consumer backlash, and is destined to fail. Plus it limits MY choices as a consumer and drives up prices, so why would I support such an action?

The idea that you think forcing consumers to buy your product has ever worked is amazing to me. Or that it's a solid plan of action. Working against the free market can only work if you're selling something like oil. iDevices aren't oil, nobody NEEDS one. So you're just supporting some draconian measure and applying moral relativism to it. Dumb and dumber.


RE: Nobody loses.
By Pirks on 9/29/2011 5:39:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Android will NOT get "banned"
No, you're an idiot, 'cause I never said anything about the whole Android thing being banned, I meant just a few infringing devices, like those from Samsung, that's all.
quote:
That solution is costly, creates huge consumer backlash, and is destined to fail
Not in the case when you try to ban just a few devices, like Apple does.
quote:
it limits MY choices as a consumer and drives up prices, so why would I support such an action?
Police office on a street arrested a guy selling counterfeit watches. His actions limited your choice and drove up prices, since now you can't just choose between cheap clone watch from this guy and an expensive one from the store. Now you have to go to the store and pay their price. Yeah, too bad man, I feel for you. Less choice, higher prices. Right. Those nasty police officers eh? :)

Of course you will NOT support such an action. What a surprise, doh!

But I wasn't talking about YOU. I know YOU and many other consumers like you will NOT support such an action. Genuinely consumers are not interested in many decisions that benefit businesses, such as, for example, installation of the break-in alarms. Why? Because installing such an alarm in a business makes it harder for the thieves to steal the goods and resell them for low prices. Also it increases the goods prices because business now has to include the alarm price into the goods price to pay for it.

Of course YOU and people like you will benefit from businesses not installing alarms, police not catching counterfeit goods sellers and so on.

Remember though that I've been discussing the business view, not your view. If you stop smoking your crack (see my message about MS split below) you should realize that there are many things that are good for consumers and bad for business, and vice versa. Try to look at it from the businessman point of view, could you do that for me please? :)
quote:
The idea that you think forcing consumers to buy your product has ever worked is amazing to me. Or that it's a solid plan of action
This plan always works when store owner reports counterfeit goods seller on the street to the police, and police essentially forces consumers to go buy goods from that store because they arrest the counterfeit guy and remove his goods from the street. Tell me, if this plan always works for other stores, why will it NOT work for Apple store eh?
quote:
Working against the free market can only work if you're selling something like oil
Working against the law can work quite well sometimes, if you're selling stolen/counterfeit goods, so what? Doesn't mean it ALWAYS works, this is pretty risky business you know.
quote:
So you're just supporting some draconian measure and applying moral relativism to it
Yes, I support draconian measures when police is dealing with clone makers on streets, so what? Why is this bad? Because it drives prices up and leaves YOU the consumer less choice? Sorry man, I think the law is ABOVE your convenience, your choice and your freakin money. It's even above me and my money. And my choice too.

Yeah I'm that bad and relativistic as you say. Deal with it.


RE: Nobody loses.
By Reclaimer77 on 9/29/2011 4:22:13 PM , Rating: 1
You really are a moron. You think Apple, who's entire existence relies on consumer devices, is "larger" than Microsoft simply because they are more profitable? Microsoft's patent portfolio alone dwarfs Apples. It's worth on the open market is incalculable. Microsoft develops operating systems and business solutions relied on by the entire world. You're beloved Apple makes a phone and a line of PC's that nobody buys running an OS almost unheard of in the business sector, congratulations.

Microsoft was split in HALF by the Federal Government and is still the worlds largest software developer, technology innovator, and business partner. The world as it is today could absolutely NOT function without Microsoft. They have made themselves utterly indispensable.

And you think Apple is "bigger"? I swear the value you morons place on disposable consumer devices is absurd. You and Tony talk as if we simply cannot exist without iDevices. Look around! Apple is in an extremely volatile market with competition closing in all around them. Just how long do you honest think they are going to be able to ride this high?

quote:
No wonder Swash is laughing at us techies.


Swash laughing? More like crying himself to sleep. The guy is an idiot and for you to put him in a favorable light shows how typically backwards you are.


RE: Nobody loses.
By Pirks on 9/29/2011 5:10:30 PM , Rating: 2
I see you love to argue with Big Money. Be my guest. No matter what you say about HUGE MS and tiny Apple who no one cares about - Big Money still says Apple makes way more money than HUGE MS.

You can argue with money and numbers all you want, but no analyst or investor will pay attention to all your crying and whining. Wall Street and industry see the mighty Apple with trucks and trains of money, and they see the HUGE MS that has... smaller trucks of money. Oops.

They don't care about your hot air rhetoric with the world depending on MS to survive and human race and blah blah, they don't give a sh!t about that drama of yours. They only see past performance where Apple was growing leaps and bounds and outgrown even MS, and where MS was stagnating since 2000.

One company stagnates and makes lotsa money. The other is growing with no end in sight and makes even more money. And sadly no one cares about your drama with world depending on MS. Money talks, Reclaimer, money talks.

Keep arguing with money, you are just wasting your time. Money. Always. Wins.

Remember that.
quote:
Microsoft was split in HALF by the Federal Government
Are you on crack? Who split MS? When? Sheesh, get some sleep man... this is worse than I thought.
quote:
Apple is in an extremely volatile market with competition closing in all around them
Yeah, Apple spent the whole life in this volatile market with competition closing in and stuff, so what? Did this hinder their ability to raise above the others? Not at all. So I don't see your point then. What was it?


RE: Nobody loses.
By chuckecheeze on 10/16/2011 4:14:28 AM , Rating: 2
microsoft is not smarter, theyre just being like mobsters demanding protection money. I would like to see somebody telling them "f*** you microsoft, lets go to court, show me the patents there." Bet the patents shown would be 30yrd old FAT16/32 filesystem.


Think of it in your stock analysis
By Da W on 9/28/2011 3:58:42 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft makes more money on every android phone sold than on windows phone sold.
Microsoft makes more money than Google on every android phone sold.
This is so funny.




By Camikazi on 9/28/2011 4:02:30 PM , Rating: 3
One reason why I think MS will eventually get involved if Apple keeps trying to shut down Android :P


RE: Think of it in your stock analysis
By sprockkets on 9/28/2011 5:30:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Microsoft makes more money on every android phone sold than on windows phone sold.


Seems that way, if mr. horace is correct, aka, apple lover

quote:
Microsoft makes more money than Google on every android phone sold.


Citation needed


RE: Think of it in your stock analysis
By ipay on 9/28/2011 7:50:00 PM , Rating: 2
I believe they license WP7 for $15 a handset, so the money they're making per Android phone is a bit less than that. Although I'm not sure what their deal with Nokia was, so maybe it's true.

I think the OP meant that because Android makes up 15 times more sales than WP7 they end up getting about 10 times as much money total from Android.


RE: Think of it in your stock analysis
By nafhan on 9/29/2011 8:42:19 AM , Rating: 2
You have to look past straight up licensing fees. MS spent a lot of money developing WP7 and $0 developing Android. Yet, they are making money from both. There's a pretty good chance that if you subtracted development (and marketing, etc.) costs for WP7 you'd see MS making a lot less on each WP7 handset.


By PitViper007 on 9/29/2011 3:45:13 PM , Rating: 2
Not to mention that Microsoft doesn't have to do a thing to maintain Android, while they have to do security updates, etc with WP7. At worst, I'd say they get equal profits from each.


I cant think of a good line to put here...
By Joz on 9/28/2011 3:50:57 PM , Rating: 2
But could you not put Balmer's face up on this website. I frequently check it in the morning and its very hard to hold my breakfast down when the first thing I see is Balmer's horrendous face.




By Mortando on 9/28/2011 4:48:25 PM , Rating: 2
It usually cracks me up, but I think mainly because it reminds me of this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZ-aRwEbp5I


By kleinma on 9/28/2011 5:53:17 PM , Rating: 1
The Ballmer comments are really old and played out at this point. Did you like looking at the skeleton in a turtle neck that was Steve Jobs better?

Have you ever met Steve Ballmer? He is actually a really cool guy. He gives a hell of a keynote and has more enthusiasm when talking to people than any other CEO I have seen (including Bill Gates, who while a very interesting person, could put you to sleep with a keynote).


This is a slap in the face to Apple
By Rob94hawk on 9/28/2011 4:12:01 PM , Rating: 2
They all hate Apple that much. IMO Samsung has a new ally in it's corner, and a damn big one too. Very smart move.




By kleinma on 9/28/2011 5:56:25 PM , Rating: 2
How is this deal supposed to help samsung at all with their issues with Apple? The things Apple is taking samsung to court over have nothing to do with a license deal with Microsoft.

If anything, this is a move by MS to slowly make hardware makers want to shift to Windows based phones instead of android based phones. If Apple has continued success in killing off samsungs line of android handsets, the most logical step is going to be abandon android and go with WinPhone 7/8.

MS actually stated this years ago. They said android adopters were going to run into tons of patent issues, and it appears they were correct.


Outright Extortion...
By nocturne_81 on 9/29/2011 7:18:59 AM , Rating: 2
This is getting ridiculous... I imagine this is quickly reaching the point (if it hasn't already) at which MS will be receiving more profit off of every Android than the actual manufacturer. Consider a $300 phone, a 10% profit of $30 is quite good for any product..




RE: Outright Extortion...
By Murst on 9/29/2011 11:38:20 AM , Rating: 2
10% is actually pretty crappy.

The top companies in the world such as Microsoft, Apple, Google, & Intel have a much higher profit margin than 10% (as in like 50% and above).


Curios...
By Phoenix7 on 9/28/2011 10:51:29 PM , Rating: 2
Forgive me if this is a stupid question, but how difficult would it be to avoid patent infringement between tech companies, so that one wouldn't have to submit to licensing deals like the agreement between Microsoft and Samsung, when the outcome appears to be more hurtful than beneficial?




By Furyoshonen on 9/29/2011 1:49:45 AM , Rating: 2
Does this mean that if I buy an Android phone from Samsung, I can also run Windows 7 on it, if I wanted to?




You are missing a point
By gvaley on 9/29/2011 3:34:20 AM , Rating: 2
You are all missing a point here. The article states it's a cross-licensing agreement. Sure, it's more fun to name winners and losers, but in this business it's closer to "mutual benefit". Samsung will pay this money to Microsoft, but who knows how much money Microsoft will pay for using Samsung's patents?




A lot of conjecture
By Bozzified on 10/2/2011 8:21:13 AM , Rating: 2
A lot of speculation is happening here. It is most likely that Samsung agreed to pay licesning fee to Microsoft at $10 a phone while Microsoft gives some kind of incentive and deal in regards to Windows Phone 7 and Windows 8 platform so it's kind of worth it for both sides. Samsung won't really lose money and will offer full spectrum of WP7/W8 devices and tablets while Microsoft gets a piece of Android.

Either way, I personally don't care. Android is personally the best and open platform and as long as it's at the forefront of technology and innovation what happens between companies is something that doesn't concern me, unless it's Apple who is really hugely disastrous for competition, innovation and consumers in general.




Your analogy is all wrong
By Sylar on 9/28/2011 5:40:08 PM , Rating: 1
Apple should have Samsung under its thumb

Because you'll attract more flies with shit than honey.




"You can bet that Sony built a long-term business plan about being successful in Japan and that business plan is crumbling." -- Peter Moore, 24 hours before his Microsoft resignation














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki