DailyTech - Samsung, Bosch Lithium-Ion Battery Joint Venture Starts Operations

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Science Samsung, Bosch Lithium-Ion Battery Joint Venture Starts Operations
Shane McGlaun (Blog) - September 2, 2008 3:17 PM

28 comment(s) - last by shin0bi272.. on Sep 4 at 3:42 PM

Market for lithium-ion batteries for hybrids will boom in coming years

The Bosch and Samsung SDI joint venture -- SB LiMotive -- has begun operations to develop, build, and market lithium-ion batteries for use in hybrid and electrical vehicles. The 50-50 joint venture will require a joint investment of $300 to $400 million in the next five years from the two firms.

The new battery venture will be run by executives from both Bosch and Samsung. Samsung SDI's Youngwoo Park and Bosch's Dr. Joachim Fetzer will head the venture. Park will be in charge of finance, production, sales, and purchasing with Fetzer in charge of engineering and quality.

The two firms expect the market volume for li-ion batteries to grow to 3 million vehicles by 2015 reports Green Car Congress. SB LiMotive will be headquartered in Suwon, South Korea with other facilities in German and Korea.

SB LiMotive isn't the only new firm working hard on lithium-ion batteries for hybrid and electrical vehicles. Reuters reports that Ener1 believes that the cost of lithium-ion batteries for hybrid vehicles will be cut in half once its technology reaches scale. Despite the fact that Ener1 has not yet signed a production agreement with an automaker, it expects to sign two new battery development deals this year.

Ener1 will be supplying lithium-ion batteries from its EnerDel unit to Norwegian Think Global for use in its Think City all electric vehicle. The Think City will be sold in Europe later this year.

Ener1 CEO Charles Gassenheimer said in an interview, "We can cut the cost of the battery by 50 percent and I believe that can be passed onto the consumer. I also believe that we can bring down the break-even to less than two years, which would obviously be very favorable because that would be within the three-year lease that is a popular choice for American purchasers of automobiles."

Gassenheimer told Reuters that if the price of oil stays around $100 per barrel that a 50% reduction in battery cost would allow buyers of hybrid cars to break even in less than two years as opposed to the seven to eight years it takes to break even now.

Ener1 doesn't believe demand for lithium-ion batteries for the automotive industry will be a problem. Gassenheimer says that demand in Asia and Europe is off the charts. Demand from American automakers is reportedly low, but growing. A breakthrough from the University of Texas at Austin also promises significant reductions in the costs associated with lithium-ion batteries for the automotive industry.

The increased demand for lithium-ion batteries will be helped in America if other major cities follow the precedent that Boston has set for transitioning all the city cabs to hybrids. Boston.com reports that new regulation put in place by the City of Boston will require all taxi drivers to replace their cabs with hybrids once the cabs hit six years of age.

The migration to hybrid taxis will come at a cost to taxi riders in Boston as well as the taxi owners. Boston.com reports that a cab ride across the city will cost $5 for the first half mile and $2.80 for each mile after that -- the highest cost in the nation.

The Boston police department -- who sets the regulations for taxis -- reports that once transitioned a hybrid will save taxi drivers $1,000 a month on gas and cut carbon emissions from taxis in half.

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Li-Ion replacements

By ebakke on 9/2/2008 4:38:00 PM , Rating: 2

Any links/articles on Li-Ion replacements? It works well now, but better battery technologies could help in so many areas.

RE: Li-Ion replacements

By mihai on 9/2/2008 5:21:59 PM , Rating: 2

Yeah, I hear wind turbines might turn into the second largest market for batteries in a few years. Batteries are supposed to keep them running on calm days when there are reports of skeptics watching them.

The larges market will be solar power. They will serve to transport the power from the production facilities to consumers until the required infrastructure is developed.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By daftrok on 9/2/2008 5:39:23 PM , Rating: 2

They can keep the infrastructure they have now. All people have to do is have energy efficient lights and air conditioning along with a solar power and generator. Then the energy facilities that power everything else can be powered by wind (and if possible geothermal and hydro power). It's an even trade off: if its sunny then the solar power can power the houses/city and if there is some wind/hydro so be it. If its cloudy chances are there is more wind/hydro than usual so wind can pick the slack. Geothermal is always working so there you go.

Hopefully within the next five years or so we'll see cheaper electric powered vehicles (Tesla is coming out with a 4 door sedan in a couple years for 60 grand). There is a lot of potential and hopefully we'll reach it before its too late.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By daftrok on 9/2/2008 5:41:19 PM , Rating: 2

By keeping the same infrastructure I meant the power lines that run through everything won't have to change. Even the generators in the energy facilities don't really have to change. All that is being changed is the source.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By Spuke on 9/2/2008 5:45:07 PM , Rating: 3

quote:
Tesla is coming out with a 4 door sedan in a couple years for 60 grand

God, that is sooooooooooo cheap.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By daftrok on 9/2/2008 9:19:21 PM , Rating: 1

Are you being sarcastic or serious, because 60 grand for a purely electric powered vehicle with 200+ mile range made by the company that made this:
http://www.teslamotors.com/

is a pretty good deal. Electric cars are the future and Tesla is pretty much leading the way at this point.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By mdogs444 on 9/2/2008 9:25:19 PM , Rating: 2

Well if you go buy a 20k new car - do you realize how much fuel $40,000 can buy you? Instead of paying $60k for a car for about 6-10yrs, you can buy 1 car, drive it for about 7 yrs, and do it all over again.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By daftrok on 9/2/2008 11:08:59 PM , Rating: 2

6 to 10 yrs? This car doesn't have a transmission (in other words a much higher car life than combustion engine cars).

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By EnderJ on 9/3/2008 9:03:52 AM , Rating: 2

It might not have a transmission, but it does have a large battery pack that would need to be replaced.

Besides, fixing/replacing a transmission would most likely be a lot cheaper then a battery pack anyway.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By jgvandemeer on 9/3/2008 7:52:56 PM , Rating: 2

You replace a transmission lately? Mine ran $4500.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By Penti on 9/4/2008 2:33:40 AM , Rating: 2

Battery pack would probably be the majority of the cost of the vehicle. Of course not in 10 years, but it might not be worth replacing it.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By FITCamaro on 9/2/2008 10:19:04 PM , Rating: 2

You apparently don't see the difference so let me explain it to you. Let's assume we both want to drive from say Florida to Texas.

I spend $20,000 on a 4 door car. I can drive 350-400 miles or more. Then refill the tank in 2 minutes and do it again until I get there.

You spend $60,000 on an electric 4 door car. You can drive at best 200 miles. You stop for 4-6 hours and do it again. Stop for another 4-6 hours and do it again. Seeing the pattern?

On top of that, in 7-8 years you pay a sizable sum for a new battery.

Meanwhile I'm still enjoying having spent only $800-1000 a year on fuel. And have around $32,000 in the bank. Which I can spend on another car 10 years after I bought the first one and drive it for another 7-8 years still having not met your initial investment.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By shin0bi272 on 9/2/2008 11:00:37 PM , Rating: 2

Actually the new anode coating lithium titanate extends the life of the battery 10x (the current ones really only last 5 years and cost between 10 and 15 thousand to replace) and allows them to recharge in a fraction of the time (they claim 6 min but they dont say for how big of a battery). The wrightspeed x-1 claims to recharge in an hour and 15 min but it only goes 120-150miles. One of the things they could do to extend the range of a LiIon car would be to mount a hydrogen powered electric generator on it to charge the batteries. Then theres the technology that the prius uses to reclaim braking energy to charge the batteries (prius' are moving to Li Ion batteries in 09 btw).

Plus lets be honest the internal combustion engine has been around since 1825 or so and the lithium ion battery car has been around how long? So to be getting 120-150 mi out of a charge in such a short time is pretty amazing to me. No they currently arent great for long distance driving but they will get better if we keep working on them. The model T couldnt go 300 miles on a tank of gas either so would you have abandoned the automobile back then just because you had to fill up every hundred miles or so? No of course not.

To be perfectly honest these cars are more meant for city drivers who drive between 5 and 50 miles a day and spend most of their time in traffic. How much gas do you use sitting in traffic for an hour or two a day? With these you wouldnt waste any gas or much charge in a Li Ion car no matter how long you sat there.

The other thing that this announcement does is let us know that a couple of big companies are going to start mass producing lithium ion batteries. Think back to the early 90's when windows 3.1 was brand new. Back then a stick of RAM was about a dollar a meg and to get good performance you needed between 4 and 8mb. Then someone (I forget who) started making more ram and the price is now ridiculously low even for a gig. Thats what this is going to do to the price of lithium ion batteries. Mass production leads to greater supply which leads to lower prices.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By Veerappan on 9/3/2008 9:59:44 AM , Rating: 2

quote:
One of the things they could do to extend the range of a LiIon car would be to mount a hydrogen powered electric generator on it to charge the batteries.

I'd be a bit worried about using a hydrogen fuel cell for now, since there's almost no infrastructure in place to fill it on the side of the highway, and because hydrogen is pretty energy intensive to isolate. A small, efficient bio-diesel engine spinning a generator would probably be a much better option for now. The nice thing is that because all you're doing is providing electricity, and not driving the tires directly, you can switch the power generation mechanism to fit local markets/desires (gasoline in US, diesel in EU, ethanol in places like Brazil, etc).

quote:

Then theres the technology that the prius uses to reclaim braking energy to charge the batteries (prius' are moving to Li Ion batteries in 09 btw).

I may be mistaken, but don't all Hybrids currently on the market use this technique to reclaim energy during braking? It's one of the reasons that the city mileage on most hybrids are as good as they are.

quote:
Think back to the early 90's when windows 3.1 was brand new. Back then a stick of RAM was about a dollar a meg and to get good performance you needed between 4 and 8mb.

I still remember paying $145 + shipping back in 94-95 for 16MB of DRAM, so your costs are a bit off, even if this does reinforce your point.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By Penti on 9/4/2008 2:52:52 AM , Rating: 2

Well most people also forget that you need a pretty big battery pack in combination with the fuel cell.

But fuel cells can't use hydrogen from steam reforming of hydrocarbons. It would get poisoned by the carbon monoxide. So when you derive your energy from fossil fuels to power hydrogen production by electrolysis it can be a pretty wasteful process. The mileage aren't that great with hydrogen fuel cells either, the vehicles can't store much hydrogen.

quote:

I'd be a bit worried about using a hydrogen fuel cell for now, since there's almost no infrastructure in place to fill it on the side of the highway, and because hydrogen is pretty energy intensive to isolate. A small, efficient bio-diesel engine spinning a generator would probably be a much better option for now. The nice thing is that because all you're doing is providing electricity, and not driving the tires directly, you can switch the power generation mechanism to fit local markets/desires (gasoline in US, diesel in EU, ethanol in places like Brazil, etc).

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By shin0bi272 on 9/4/2008 3:39:25 PM , Rating: 2

yeah sorry I meant $50/mb... must proofread more.

And I suggested a hydrogen engine only to keep with the whole use of no gasoline... Honestly though Id use a normal gasoline engine (maybe 50 or 75hp) if it were up to me. But yeah any small engine that would automatically flip on when the power reached a certian level to recharge the batteries and possibly go directly to the alternator while its charging the batteries.

Im not sure if all hybrids use the breaking tech or if its just the prius but its a good idea none the less.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By daftrok on 9/2/2008 11:26:09 PM , Rating: 2

Ok so for road trips it isn't the car of choice but how often do people do road trips? Once, maybe twice a year? And it doesn't take 4 to 6 hours it takes 3 and a half. Granted it's still not ideal for road trips but either case its primary use is in the city.

I agree that it's not meant for the average consumer NOW but it's a step in the right direction. Flash memory used to be insanely overpriced. 1080p TVs used to cost over 10 grand. CFL bulbs used to cost $5 a bulb. Now I can buy a 4 GB USB drive for under $20. I can get a 50" LED backlit 1080P television for $1500. Costco sells 10 CFL bulbs for $9. I'm just saying this technology is a step in the right direction. From a $98000 two door convertible to a %60000 foor door sedan.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By Solandri on 9/3/2008 12:05:47 AM , Rating: 2

If the person plans to make one long road trip a year, and can only afford to buy one car, that immediately disqualifies the electric from consideration. When picking a vehicle to buy, the average use only determines the fuel/electricity cost. Other criteria depend on the usage extremes (max range, max number of passengers, max cargo capacity, max towing, etc).

Unless these battery capacity/recharging problems can be solved, electric cars are going to be relegated to two-vehicle families. Meaning they're going to have to come down in price even more than a typical first vehicle (to maximize the number of households that can afford the electric as a second vehicle). I want electric vehicles to succeed, but they've still got a long way to go before our transportation is primarily electric. We may even wind up perfecting hydrogen fuel cells before the electric storage problem is solved.

(One solution which may work is owning an electric car, and renting a gas car for your one trip a year.)

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By daftrok on 9/3/2008 11:27:22 PM , Rating: 2

Even better would be a power control on the electric engine. The Tesla cars are fast. In fact they are unnecessarily fast for the average consumer. I hope that there is an option to cut down the juice in their four door sedan so that we can get some range on these vehicles.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By shin0bi272 on 9/4/2008 3:42:37 PM , Rating: 2

the wrightspeed x-1 is electronically limited to 112mph and goes for 150miles or so on a single charge at normal city speeds (about 45-55mph).

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By Penti on 9/4/2008 3:07:36 AM , Rating: 2

If a person can afford an electric vehicle they can also afford a second gasoline/diesel car. As said.

Trips with electrics should be fine as long as I can charge it on the parking lot / garage when I do my business and come back to it at least 80% charged. So it shouldn't be a problem for me to drive to Stockholm, park in a parking garage with electrical outlets for charging, go about shopping or what ever in central Stockholm and go home even if the range are just 170 km and the trip is 130km one way. But driving 400 km in one day wouldn't be possible any more though. They are more problems with fuel cell vehicles at the moment though, range isn't much better FCX Clarity has like 280 miles, and they still need pretty large batteries connected to the fuel cell in order to use the power. Going to work and the stores close by should work fine with todays electrics. Think City got 200 km range with the li-ions, they are being leased here now, albeit limited.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By mihai on 9/2/2008 5:50:23 PM , Rating: 2

I should have placed a sarcasm warning...

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By ebakke on 9/2/2008 11:42:28 PM , Rating: 1

I really don't understand why I was rated down. That was a legitimate question.

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RE: Li-Ion replacements

By AnnihilatorX on 9/3/2008 4:42:32 AM , Rating: 2

There is Li-Sulphur batteries which could store twice as much in terms of energy density of the cells. Yet the technology is not ready since recharge cycle is in range of about 400 only. The UK-built solar-powered plane has set an unofficial world endurance record for a flight by an unmanned aircraft is built using the Lithium Sulphur battery.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/7577493.stm

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hmm...

By JasonMick

(blog) on 9/2/2008 4:46:46 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
Market for lithium-ion batteries for hybrids will boom

Especially those iPod Nanos and retrofitted Prius cars I hear... ;)

RE: hmm...

By Smartless on 9/2/2008 10:25:28 PM , Rating: 2

Now now fires in cars are very useful. Think of all the cars in the movies that explode after being shot a few times.

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what kind of anode?

By shin0bi272 on 9/2/2008 6:25:39 PM , Rating: 2

are they using the standard carbon covered anode or the new lithium titanate covered anode? The lithium titanate ones last 10X as long as the carbon ones and the current carbon ones last 5 years. One of the major reasons why Li Ion cars currently arent a good idea is the battery for one is $10,000-$15,000 and youd have to replace it every 5 years.