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Print 43 comment(s) - last by inperfectdarkn.. on Oct 5 at 6:03 AM

Samsung accuses the latest Apple product of violating two cellular and six utility (mobile OS) patents.

As expected, Samsung Electronic Comp., Ltd. (KSC:005930) has filed an amendment to its patent infringement countersuit against Apple, Inc. (AAPL) in the U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California alleging that the iPhone 5 infringes on six of its patents.

I. Samsung Alleges iPhone 5 Infringement

Two of those patents involve the 3G UMTS standard (which Apple may be free to license at a low rate as they are FRAND standards patents).  

The other six patents are more dangerous, however, since they are utility patents and hence Samsung has no licensing obligations to Apple.  Those patents are:

Samsung claims Apple's new sixth-generation iPhone infringes on all of these patents.

II. Adding to the Existing Dispute Doesn't Necessarily Mean a Loss for Samsung

The phonemaker wants to inject its new iPhone 5 accusations into its partially-complete current case, replacing a placeholder in the original filing referring to future products.  Samsung claims, "judicial resources will be preserved" by this approach.  The decision would also benefit Samsung by allowing it to potentially achieve a rapid ban on the iPhone 5 if Judge Paul S. Grewal or other judges in the case decide in Samsung's favor.

Recall that in its previous legal loss to Apple in the same court, a jury ruled that Apple's previous iPhones did not infringe on any of these Samsung patents, while finding Samsung to infringe on virtually every Apple patent asserted.  

However, substantial questions regarding that ruling have been raised on several grounds -- notably that at least one juror had family members who were large Apple shareholders, that the jury was given a massive amount of arguments to consider in a narrow time window, and that some jury instructions appeared to have been biased towards Apple.

In that regard, Samsung's Aug. 24 loss before the jury may not necessary mirror the outcome in this second phase.

Samsung v. Apple
Samsung hopes for a better result in rount two of its Californian federal court dispute with Apple.
[Image Source: Android Authority]

Apple recently sought to triple the damages against Samsung to $3B USD on the grounds that jurors found Samsung's infringement to be willful.  Apple is also pushing the court to ban most of Samsung's Android smartphones from sale in the U.S.

Source: U.S. District Court for the Northern District of California via The Verge/SBNation [PDF]



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Patents
By Gio6518 on 10/2/2012 1:23:46 PM , Rating: 2
This all needs to stop....all companies, each and every one has innovated, created some great things....Then another company stole it....they all just need to come together, end it all, stop the fines and lawsuits and just cross-license




RE: Patents
By Texwolf on 10/2/2012 1:29:10 PM , Rating: 5
These two are just being ridiculous. And we also need to overhaul outdated patent laws in this country!


RE: Patents
By BZDTemp on 10/2/2012 6:13:13 PM , Rating: 5
It's Apple that is being ridiculous. Samsung has no choice but to defend them self and I don't see them making claims to have invented round corners.


RE: Patents
By TakinYourPoints on 10/2/2012 11:02:58 PM , Rating: 2
Apple actually lost on most of the design and trade dress accounts (aka - rounded corners). It was other technical patents that they won on. They've also had more companies suing them than the other way around for a very long time.

In any case, yes, it is all ridiculous.


RE: Patents
By topkill on 10/3/2012 9:00:25 PM , Rating: 4
But nobody else has been trying to get products banned to gain monopoly positions in whole geographies. Apple is the bad guy pushing that strategy and so noboldy else has any alternatives but to engage in similar tactics.

When I was at IBM, we spent a fortune building up our patent portfolio....for defensive purposes. We never went after anyone, but when they came after us, we simply trotted out the portfolio and told them to go away. Apple was one of the companies we had to watch out for.

Steve Jobs was always terrible to steal ideas and had no compunction whatsoever about turning around and acting like it was his idea to start with...and then suing you for it.


RE: Patents
By inperfectdarkness on 10/5/2012 6:03:08 AM , Rating: 2
that's pretty much the point. apple's actions would be like GM declaring that Ford is free to produce whatever size, shape or color of car that Ford wanted; but since GM owns a patent on doors, Ford can't use doors with its car.

i too would love to see the litigation stop. that said, if samsung remains passive, apple will have the momentum. i'd rather see apple put in its rightful--marginal--place in the market, and then the litigation can die down.


RE: Patents
By danobrega on 10/2/2012 1:29:14 PM , Rating: 4
Cross licensing means the big players are ok, the small players are out of the game.

The patent system needs to be redesigned, and it's purpose must be to serve the people, not to serve the companies.


RE: Patents
By nafhan on 10/2/2012 2:29:24 PM , Rating: 2
What's really crazy is that as awful as that sounds, it's better than what is going on right now!

Agree that the patent system definitely needs to be reformed from the perspective of promoting innovation that will benefit the consumer.


RE: Patents
By geekman1024 on 10/2/2012 10:30:45 PM , Rating: 3
But people don't own patents, companies do.

Does this mean America's patent system serves no purpose?


RE: Patents
By Siki on 10/3/2012 2:35:49 AM , Rating: 2
People do own patents. They just don't have the money to use them effectively against large corporations. A well funded company can bury you in frivolous lawsuits, driving you into bankruptcy just trying to deal with them.


RE: Patents
By FITCamaro on 10/3/2012 2:44:54 PM , Rating: 2
If you have a patent that a large company is clearly infringing on, you're easily going to find a lawyer who will take your case.


RE: Patents
By topkill on 10/3/2012 8:02:54 PM , Rating: 2
Try it. That sounds so easy and romantic and how we protect the little guy in the "American Dream".

The reality is that these lawyers need money too and can't spend unlimited time trying your case even if they think there is a good possibility of a payback at the end.

Even if you're "in the right" going to court is a crap-shoot. You may win or you may loose on some technicality or a screwed up jury. You think lawyers will all just line up to spend 10 years fighting a giant corporation for you on the hope it might work out?


RE: Patents
By Siki on 10/4/2012 12:43:30 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe you would find one, but for every one you find they can afford to hire twenty or more top lawyers. It's a losing battle unless you have a major backer since it's a battle of attrition. They bury you in litigation, it doesn't matter if they are correct.


RE: Patents
By seraphim1982 on 10/2/2012 1:32:07 PM , Rating: 5
This is like a facebook poke war....


RE: Patents
By woody1 on 10/2/2012 3:18:40 PM , Rating: 5
It can't stop. It's the law. Retaliation in the courts is about the only thing Samsung can do until the laws are changed. Otherwise, they will be screwed time and again by Apple. My hope is that Google acquires enough patents to make Apple STFU out of fear.


RE: Patents
By Tony Swash on 10/2/12, Rating: -1
RE: Patents
By retrospooty on 10/2/2012 3:42:18 PM , Rating: 2
" Retaliation in the courts is about the only thing Apple can do, otherwise, they will be screwed time and again by Samsung sleazy copyin"

Seriously Tony, just stop. Stop spreading your lies. I am going to go out on a limb and say that Woz is a lot smarter than you, a lot more balanced than you and knows alot more about Apple and its practices than you.

http://hothardware.com/News/Apple-CoFounder-Steve-...


RE: Patents
By Rukkian on 10/2/2012 4:08:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I am going to go out on a limb and say that Woz is a lot smarter than you


Actually, that would be a compliment (or at least not a knock at all), as Woz is a genius. That is kind of like saying you are more poor than Bill Gates.


RE: Patents
By retrospooty on 10/2/2012 4:15:24 PM , Rating: 2
I am not knocking him, I am pointing out that his repetitive argument is flawed, and that even Woz agrees.


RE: Patents
By Tony Swash on 10/3/2012 11:49:33 AM , Rating: 1
OK. So you say Samsung did not copy Apple products. Really? Either you are someone whose judgment on these matters is completely unhinged by iPhobia or you just don't see it. I think it's the former but if it's the latter can I ask when was the last time you had your eyes tested?


RE: Patents
By retrospooty on 10/3/2012 12:07:50 PM , Rating: 3
Not at all. I a saying all companies do this and always have since the dawn of commerce itself. All companies build off the succeseful ideas of others and always have. If it werent done, there would be one car company - Ford, as all companies copied thier ideas of how to mas produce a car in an economically viable fashion. Honda, BMW, GM, all copy ford.

Apple copied Palm and RIM and built on it to create the iPhone. Apple copies many things from Android and its all overlooked because ALL companies do this.

Things Apple copied from Android
- Notifications
- Over the air updates
- Widgets
- Free turn by turn navigation
- Social network integration
- Multitasking
- Drop Down Notifications
- Opening apps from the lock screen
- Custom Wallpapers
- Panoramic photos

For Apple to suddenly act as if they are above this is is a affront to commerce itself.


RE: Patents
By testerguy on 10/4/2012 10:13:32 AM , Rating: 2
None of those were invented by Android. Thus Android has no exclusive right over them (with the possible exception of Notification centre although they haven't acted on that patent yet).

You need to learn (and quickly) the difference between owning intellectual rights to something, and not owning the intellectual rights to something.

You can't copy the former, you can legally copy the latter.


RE: Patents
By retrospooty on 10/4/2012 1:28:31 PM , Rating: 2
I dont argue that Apple has masterfully manipulated the (unanimously agreed) flawed patent system and did it "legally". The point is they do copy as much if not more than other companies. And they did copy that stuff from Android. Not to say that google invented ALL of it, but teh fact is Android started outselling Apple and then Apple copied those things from Android and you know it.


RE: Patents
By Belard on 10/2/2012 7:51:08 PM , Rating: 2
At least these are based off of something.


this is getting old...
By retrospooty on 10/2/2012 1:33:29 PM , Rating: 1
I mean, I get why Samsung is doing it to try and protect themselves from Apples douchebaggery, but still, it sucks. Open it up and let the consumers decide and the best product/price performance wins.




RE: this is getting old...
By Camikazi on 10/2/2012 1:40:50 PM , Rating: 3
That would be nice but Apple is on a warpath trying to get all Samsung products banned so that can't happen right now. Samsung has to fight back just to try and curb Apple's attacks.


RE: this is getting old...
By JasonMick (blog) on 10/2/2012 2:11:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That would be nice but Apple is on a warpath trying to get all Samsung products banned so that can't happen right now. Samsung has to fight back just to try and curb Apple's attacks.
Cue eternal war...

"The peace could not be made as we were under attack. So we must attack the enemy. Peace shall not be made for now and forever, until the entire society crumbles under the attrition and the carnage or one side emerges victorious and rules over all, a despot over the broken remains. Thus the eternal war is waged."

(Source: Me!)


RE: this is getting old...
By magmaviper on 10/2/2012 4:16:11 PM , Rating: 2
I bet Apple holds the patent on text enclosed in parenthesis. Prepare to hear from their lawyers.


RE: this is getting old...
By geekman1024 on 10/2/2012 10:36:03 PM , Rating: 2
I think up next in court, Apple is claiming they own the Galaxy. Pun intended.


RE: this is getting old...
By TakinYourPoints on 10/2/2012 11:07:45 PM , Rating: 2
Even Google told Samsung to knock it off with their product designs. Fortunately they are getting farther and farther away from copying Apple's designs than they were a year ago. They kind of have to, and it is ironic that these patent lawsuits gave them a kick in the pants to actually innovate with their own unique designs rather than being so blatant with their copying.

The Galaxy X in particular was such a "you've gotta be kidding me" move with its obvious 3G/3GS styling. Now if they were forced to drop the awful TouchWiz UI then it'd be another win for Samsung customers, vanilla Android by default!


RE: this is getting old...
By retrospooty on 10/3/2012 12:11:22 PM , Rating: 2
http://hothardware.com/News/Apple-CoFounder-Steve-...

Takin, Even Woz disagrees with your slanted take on it.

All companies build off the succeseful ideas of others and always have. The only difference with Apple is they somehow think they are above it all now, as if they didnt copy dozens of things from Palm on the original iPhone. Its ridiculous and you know it.


RE: this is getting old...
By TakinYourPoints on 10/4/2012 12:01:23 AM , Rating: 2
Good for him. I'm all for companies actually innovating and doing unique designs. The Galaxy line has already started to diverge away from the Apple style, wouldn't you like to see this continue further?

One of the things I love about WP is how logical and functional the design of the OS and hardware while completely doing their own thing.


RE: this is getting old...
By testerguy on 10/4/2012 10:17:45 AM , Rating: 2
It's like you think Woz's opinion means anything in the logical world.

When all you can do to defend a point of view is to point out someone else with that same point of view, you've already failed.

The difference, as I've illustrated above - is that all companies take inspiration but add their own value without infringing design patents, utility patents and trade dress. Samsung didn't. They just copied. They forgot to 'build off the successful ideas' - they just rebuilt the successful and patented ideas.

They also tried to ban the 4S over 3G patents - with zero success, and now trying to ban the 5 over LTE patents. That strategy existed way before the result of this court case. To try and excuse a company who seeks bans over FRAND patents repeatedly, and blatantly rips off an entire product range to the tune of $1bn in damages - is quite frankly ridiculous.


RE: this is getting old...
By retrospooty on 10/4/2012 1:24:18 PM , Rating: 2
Woz's opinion was added and is relevant as someone with inside knowledge if the industry, invention, tech products, and Apple the company itself. Your opinion is the one that means nothing.


By croc on 10/2/2012 6:12:55 PM , Rating: 2
Found this article from 'ARSTechnica' whilst browsing 'The Register'...

http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2012/09/how-a-r...




Ban them all
By ebakke on 10/2/2012 6:34:27 PM , Rating: 2
Ban it all. Every single product that has even the remotest infringement concerns. Maybe after no one can sell anything and the shelves start emptying people will wake the hell up and fix our ridiculous patent system.




Wow it took 4 years
By ballist1x on 10/3/2012 7:19:21 AM , Rating: 2
To pass a patent?

(filed: 1997; granted: 2001; covers: image/voice recording)

These guys need to patent something to speed up the process! Generally its called hiring more staff. Maybe i should patent it..




The plot thickens
By Tony Swash on 10/3/2012 6:51:38 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.scribd.com/doc/108832665/12-04-30-Apple...

One of the more notable documents filed with Judge Lucy Koh's court in the Apple versus Samsung post-trial motions is a letter from Apple intellectual property licensing director Boris Teskler to his equivalent at Samsung, Seongwoo Kim. The letter outlines a reciprocal patent agreement more in line with actual fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory (FRAND) terms, rather than Samsung's proposed 2.4 percent rate of the entire device's purchase price.

Apple offered to license its FRAND UMTS patents, provided that Samsung "reciprocally agrees to this same, common royalty base, and same methodological approach to royalty rate, in licensing its declared-essential patents to Apple." Apple's estimates placed the price at $0.33 per device per royalty for use of the Apple patent portfolio, with the rate applied "to all Samsung units that Apple has not otherwise licensed." Apple requested a response by May 7, 2012, and no agreement was made.




I see Googled caved
By Tony Swash on 10/2/12, Rating: -1
Test out the Iphone 5
By eric06 on 10/2/12, Rating: -1
RE: Test out the Iphone 5
By Nutzo on 10/2/2012 2:45:17 PM , Rating: 1
Go post your spam somewhere else.


RE: Test out the Iphone 5
By AMDftw on 10/2/2012 2:49:16 PM , Rating: 2
FU and your iPhone! I want a free Samsung Note II for free!


RE: Test out the Iphone 5
By geekman1024 on 10/2/2012 10:33:11 PM , Rating: 2
And I want a free Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 for free for free!


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