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American and Russia are teetering on the brink of a new Cold War, economically

America's economic battle with Russia heated up on Thursday following the crash of Malaysian Airlines (Malaysia Airlines System Bhd (MK:MAS)) Flight 17, which was downed near Donetsk in East Ukraine, apparently from some sort of surface-to-air missile.

I. Obama Administration Escalates Conflict With Russia

Earlier this week rebel forces controlling the crash site in East Ukraine handed over black boxes from the flight and bodies of flight victims recovered from the site.  But the situation remains tense amid conflicting perspectives.

Russia continues to adamantly accuse the Ukranian government of doctoring evidence, suggesting the western-backed government of west-Ukraine or mercenaries in its employ may have shot down the jet.  The U.S. has said that a growing body of evidence points to Russian-backed militants in East Ukraine as the likely culprits.  It suggests they may have downed the jet using advanced air defense systems provided by Russia.

While Russia joined calls by America and much of the EU for a cease fire in war-torn eastern Ukraine, that did not halt the U.S. from rolling out an upgraded set of economic restrictions last Thursday.  Now Russia has responded, and several top U.S. tech firms are caught in the cross fire.

MH-17 bodies
A train transporting the bodies of MH-17 crash victims prepares to depart for Western Ukraine.
[Image Source: Ria Novosti]

Thursday's restrictions target several of Russia's largest corporate-government entitties, including:
  • ENERGY
    • Rosneft NK OAO (MCX:ROSN)
      • oil giant, coowned by Russian government
    • Novatek OAO (MCX:NVTK)
      • another Russian natural gas firm
  • BANKING
    • Gazprombank
      • investment wing of largest natural gas producer in Russia, Gazprom OAO (MCX:GAZP)
    • Vnesheconombank (VEB)
      • Russia's state development bank which facilitates overseas exports
The targeted corporations were added to the U.S. Department of Treasury Office of Foreign Assets Control's (OFAC) Global Sanctions List [PDF].  The firms have been banned from doing business using U.S. currency.  They've also been barred from buying all but the shortest forms of U.S. debt (3-month bonds).

Samuel Charap, a former Obama administration State department official and senior fellow at the International Institute for Strategic Studies (IISS), was pessimistic about the outcome of the financial volley.  He remarked to Bloomberg Businessweek:

This is certainly a major escalation... I’m not sure we can inflict enough pain to make losing Ukraine palatable to Moscow.  It’s hard for us to imagine how important Ukraine is to them and how far they’re willing to go. The question on a strategic level is ‘How far is the U.S. willing to go?’

Others believe the new sanctions could be painful enough to Russian corporations and their business partners to force them to back down.  David Riedel, President of the Riedel Research Group, which calls itself a global indepedent investment equity research firm, wrote to Bloomberg Businessweek:

[Russia] is teetering on the edge now and this will be enough to push it over.

But if Russia is going over the edge, it looks intent to go down kicking and screaming.  And U.S. companies are growing very concerned.

II. American Business Trade Groups Warn Moves Will Cost U.S. Jobs

Even before the crash of MH-17, the Obama administration had for weeks been threatening the kinds of OFAC punishments it doled out last Thursday.  

Two top business advocacy groups -- the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and National Association of Manufacturers (NAM) -- pleaded with the White House to reconsider, even going as far as to take out advertisements in The New York Times.  NAM official Linda Dempsey wrote:

Any manufacturer that has any office in Russia that uses a Russian bank would no longer be able to transact normal business, meet payroll, pay invoices.

Obama face
U.S. trade groups say antagonizing Russia will cost Americans jobs. [Image Source: Reuters]

The U.S. Chamber of Commerce elaborated:

We are deeply concerned by events in Ukraine and Russia. In no way do we condone Russia’s actions, but we respectfully oppose legislative proposals to impose unilateral economic sanctions on Russia.
 
We believe history has shown that unilateral sanctions consistently fail to achieve their intended objectives, which is why many leaders of both parties have expressed a principled opposition to these measures as a tool of American foreign policy.
 
U.S. unilateral sanctions will have no meaningful impact on Russian policy as trade with the United States accounts for less than 5% of Russia’s international commerce. The Ukrainian people would see no benefit; the only effect of such sanctions would be to bar U.S. companies from the Russian market and cede business opportunities to firms from other countries. The result would be lost sales for U.S. firms and lost jobs for American workers.
 
We understand the impulse to act. However, actions that are certain to be ineffective—doing nothing to promote stability while nonetheless costing American jobs—should be rejected.

Both groups warned that the sanctions could cost the U.S. jobs.  They have fallen more quiet in the wake of the MH-17 disaster, though, as calls to punish Russia for assisting rebels have grown.

III. Who Will be Affected

Now those fears are being put to the test.

Russia's state Duma -- the lower house of its bicameral legislature -- is drafting a bill that is expected to pass, ordering Russian government agencies and state-owned/-co-owned business to give domestic firms "preference" over foreign computer software and hardware from the U.S., Europe, or Asia.

It will be some time after the bill passes before the full impact of the measure becomes clear.  On the surface it somewhat similar to laws already on the books in regions like China, which favor domestic firms over foreign entrants.  Further, the protectionist bid may be limited by the number of proven alternatives to products form top U.S. firms.  Russia will be taking a substantial risk if it switches its government networks and enterprises over to use less secure or reliable solutions.

On the other hand, there may be some true motion away from U.S. offerings.

Microsoft Corp.'s (MSFT) SQL Server, Office, Windows, and Windows Phone products are used in Russia (among other software offerings) are expected to potentially be hit the hardest in the tech space.  According to some sources, Microsoft's Nokia Devices unit is the top smartphone maker in Russia, making this one of its most coveted sales regions.  

Russia Windows Phone
Microsoft's is the top smartphone maker in Russia.  [Image Source: WP Central]

Oracle Corp. (ORCL) (an IT/database solutions provider) and International Business Machine Corp. (IBM) may also be adversely impacted.

According to a Duma commision led by executive secretary Andrey Chernogorov, Russia currently awards 67 percent of software contracts and 90 percent of hardware contracts to foreign firms.

According to CNews Analytics, Russia has a number of large IT companies with revenue of over $1B USD which may be able to step up to the plate.  Among them are:
  • NCC (National Computer Corp.)
  • LANIT
  • Technoserv
  • Reksoft
  • NVision Group
  • IBS Group Holding Ltd. (IBSG) (ETR:ISBG)
It should be noted, however, that much of these companies' current services rely upon solutions involving American products, solutions that would not appear to be favored under the pending bill.

IV. The Spying Issue

Secretary Chernogorov says the bill is absolutely related to recent U.S. sanctions, stating to Bloomberg in an interview:

This all has to do with sanctions.  Given the current international tensions, substituting imports with local software and hardware becomes the key to ensuring self sufficiency.

But the Russian legislature has also said that a key concern is ongoing reports of the U.S. National Security Agency (NSA) spying on foreign economic rivals (both enemies and allies alike) using bugs, backdoors, and other security holes.  Much like the criticism that surrounds tech corporations in China -- another top tech and spying superpower -- American tech products are viewed globally as less trustworthy.

Russia is not alone in expressing concerns that the U.S. federal government could exert pressure on tech firms to help it spy; China, Brazil, and Germany -- among others -- have expressed similar fears.  Even if the tech firms don't directly assist the U.S. government in spying on foreign countries, the fact that the products are shipping through American controlled channels raises the risk that the products will be intercepted and implanted with bugs -- a popular tactic used by the NSA to spy on Americans and foreigners alike.  The NSA reportedly has entire factories devoted to such efforts.

NSA spying
Many are afraid American products will be used as spying tools. [Image Source: Nation of Change]

Russia knows a thing or two about surveillance.  It has faced a number of accusations of cyberspying in recent years.

Still, not all in Russia are convinced that abandoning proven U.S. solutions is a viable approach.  Nikolay Komlev, executive director of the Russian Association of Computer and IT Enterprises (an organization that expresses both domestic and foreign firms operating in Russia) commented:

The idea of supporting local IT production is justified.  Still, its implementation proposed by State Duma may give a competitive advantage to not the most efficient companies.

Under this new-look foreign policy, the Obama administration hasn't hesitated in playing hardball with a number of countries like Russia and China, even as it continues its massive spying campaign.  The impact of this shift will likely be closely scrutinized in 2016 when the President leaves office.

Sources: Bloomberg Businessweek [1], [2], NPR





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This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

Stuck between
By Nightbird321 on 7/22/2014 3:58:21 PM , Rating: 5
Rock = do nothing
Hard Place = do anything




RE: Stuck between
By retrospooty on 7/22/2014 4:28:30 PM , Rating: 2
LOL. My opponent thinks your proposal doesn't go too far. I say it doesn't go too far enough!

Anyhow sanctions from Russia? Does that mean we dont get as much spam and viral outbreaks? ;)


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/14, Rating: 0
RE: Stuck between
By tayb on 7/22/2014 4:56:03 PM , Rating: 2
Why should the US care what Putin is doing literally across the world? He is not harming US citizens, threatening to harm US citizens, or threatening any action against Americans or American allies.

We are not defenders of the free world. We are not the world police. We are not the worldwide defense. We are the United States. How about we shift our focus back to our own problems? We have quite a few to deal with. Let Europe and Asia deal with Putin/Russia. It is not our problem.


RE: Stuck between
By enlil242 on 7/22/2014 5:32:00 PM , Rating: 1
"He is not harming US citizens, threatening to harm US citizens, or threatening any action against Americans or American allies."

Um, I believe there were at least 298 American and American allies that were directly harmed [killed] by what Putin is doing "across the world."


RE: Stuck between
By tayb on 7/23/2014 9:28:58 AM , Rating: 5
Ukraine is not a part of NATO. We have no obligation to do anything to protect them. We are an ally in name only, there are no obligations.

Beyond that, rebels shooting down a plane is not an action taken by Putin. It's an action taken by rebels. While Putin is arming Ukraine rebels we are arming rebels in Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, and countless other countries. We have no moral high ground here. It's actually laughable that people believe the United States is innocent or deserving of being world moral police.

And again, just what would you like the US to do here? Levy economic sanctions against Russia so that they can levy economic sanctions against the US? That's a great plan that will achieve absolutely nothing except harming US businesses. Send soldiers to Ukraine and escalate a conflict into a full blown war? Great idea.

Seriously, this isn't our problem. It is happening on the other side of the world. Let Europe deal with Europe.


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/14, Rating: -1
RE: Stuck between
By tayb on 7/23/2014 2:07:11 PM , Rating: 3
Let me say it again...

Ukraine is not a part of NATO. We do not have a defense pact with them. We are no more "allies" than random facebook friends are "friends."

Let's not pretend that 2014 is the same world as 1914. There is no risk of global war breaking out due to problems within Europe. Europe is no longer divided or conflicted. They can handle their own problems. All the effort we made post World War II has paid off. We don't need to keep meddling in world affairs.


RE: Stuck between
By tamalero on 7/23/2014 2:51:30 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, Then whats the correct story? Ukraine in one side claims the Separatists stole BUK missiles from them a few days prior.
On the other.. the US says Russians are selling BUK systems to the Separatists?


RE: Stuck between
By M'n'M on 7/23/2014 4:12:14 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ok, Then whats the correct story?

The separatists claimed back in June that they had liberated a Buk. After MH17 they claimed that they had no system that could reach that altitude. Three days before MH17 separatists claimed they downed an AN-26 not 80 mi from MH17. It was at 21 kft, 2x the most optimistic altitude for any MANPAD.

Today we have this ...
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/07/23/us-ukrai...
(Reuters) - A powerful Ukrainian rebel leader has confirmed that pro-Russian separatists had an anti-aircraft missile of the type Washington says was used to shoot down Malaysia Airlines flight MH17 and it could have originated in Russia.

In an interview with Reuters, Alexander Khodakovsky, commander of the Vostok Battalion, acknowledged for the first time since the airliner was brought down in eastern Ukraine on Thursday that the rebels did possess the BUK missile system and said it could have been sent back subsequently to remove proof of its presence.

Before the Malaysian plane was shot down, rebels had boasted of obtaining the BUK missiles, which can shoot down airliners at cruising height. But since the disaster the separatists' main group, the self-proclaimed People’s Republic of Donetsk, has repeatedly denied ever having possessed such weapons.
...
"I knew that a BUK came from Luhansk. At the time I was told that a BUK from Luhansk was coming under the flag of the LNR," he said, referring to the Luhansk People’s Republic, the main rebel group operating in Luhansk, one of two rebel provinces along with Donetsk, the province where the crash took place.

"That BUK I know about. I heard about it. I think they sent it back. Because I found out about it at exactly the moment that I found out that this tragedy had taken place. They probably sent it back in order to remove proof of its presence," Khodakovsky told Reuters on Tuesday.


No doubt there are many liars here but for certain the separatists are lying re: having an SA-11.


RE: Stuck between
By The0ne on 7/23/2014 5:36:04 PM , Rating: 2
So naive, so like the GOP. If you want war so much sign up already. That last sentence was just pure ignorance. You know the US supplies military equipments to others as well. Might as well tell other countries to nuke us too eh?

Keep up the good work of making yourself a fool.


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/2014 11:33:01 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Let Europe deal with Europe.


Last time we decided to do that, it caused not one but TWO horrendous world wars.

But yeah just keep ignoring the problem, that always works.

quote:
Beyond that, rebels shooting down a plane is not an action taken by Putin.


Yes because "rebels" stole sophisticated mobile missile launchers from the Russian military. I guess they just trained themselves to use it too, right? They were also seen moving it back into Russia after the shoot-down.

Are you and ritualim just stupid or are you really THAT naive? I'm not saying Putin personally had his finger on the button, but to claim he's blameless is just EPIC denial.


RE: Stuck between
By flatrock on 7/23/2014 2:52:25 PM , Rating: 3
We do have responsibilities to Ukraine regarding Russia due to our signing the Budapest Memorandum. We gave the Ukraine assurances and in return they gave up their Soviet Era nuclear weapons to Russia. Russia promised among other things to respect Ukrainian independence and sovereignty within its existing borders, which they have obviously violated.

I believe our obligations fall short of direct military aid, but we do have a clear treaty obligation.


RE: Stuck between
By sorry dog on 7/22/2014 9:53:03 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
We are not defenders of the free world. We are not the world police. We are not the worldwide defense. We are the United States. How about we shift our focus back to our own problems? We have quite a few to deal with. Let Europe and Asia deal with Putin/Russia. It is not our problem.


1939 just called, and said it wants its isolationist opinions back.


RE: Stuck between
By tayb on 7/23/2014 9:22:55 AM , Rating: 3
Please learn the difference between isolationism and non-interventionism.


RE: Stuck between
By flatrock on 7/23/2014 3:41:48 PM , Rating: 2
Non-internationalists naively believe the nation can still take part in international trade and not get pulled into foreign conflicts or power plays, and that our foreign investments and our people operating abroad will be kept safe simply because of our goodwill.

They bring up examples of small non-interventionist nations that have been reasonably successful, but ignore that their success has been dependent on others keeping things relatively peaceful and consistent.

It's two different versions of just ignoring all the facts they don't like.


RE: Stuck between
By Dadofamunky on 7/25/2014 2:17:44 AM , Rating: 2
Go volunteer to fight ISIS then. Or go volunteer in the Ukraine. The door's over there. You know what? Reagan didn't start a war with Russia. You sure find it easy to volunteer everyone else to fight your little battles. Reagan was smarter than you appear to be.

Boo hoo. "Cost the U.S. jobs." Right. Sure. Russia has a lot more to lose than we do, with their pathetic attempts to imitate Silicon Valley with their subsidized tech parks while not respecting intellectual property law and running a corrupt thugocracy. Clamp down HARD on them. Strangle their economy. It worked with Reagan, and it will work again now. Obama is doing exactly the right thing. Do more, please.


RE: Stuck between
By retrospooty on 7/22/2014 5:01:10 PM , Rating: 2
What are you saying we should be doing about this beyond sanctions? War with Russia?


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2014 5:35:25 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think "this" would be happening if our foreign policy was based on a position of strength instead of being an apologist and someone who doesn't support our allies.

Putin now knows he can get away with just about anything, so why WOULDN'T he keep pushing if nobody is going to stand up to him?

But I know, you have this kneejerk response to defend Obama no matter what.

War with Russia...where did I say that? I'm not suggesting any course of action, just stating 'sanctions' aren't going to do squat.


RE: Stuck between
By retrospooty on 7/22/2014 5:46:08 PM , Rating: 3
The OP called it "rock and a hard place" so to speak. I tend to agree... You brought up Obama, I simply asked a question on how you think we should have handled it if not sanctions. I am still not getting what you are saying we should have done differently.


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/22/2014 5:48:14 PM , Rating: 3
We could always say shooting down civilian jets is a "red line".

Oh wait, never mind. Putin also knows our "Red line" threats are just BS now too.


RE: Stuck between
By retrospooty on 7/22/2014 6:02:20 PM , Rating: 2
Wait, let me get this straight... Are you saying you don't like Obama?


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/2014 8:45:02 AM , Rating: 2
I'll tell you what I like. I like an America that doesn't bow and capitulate to our enemies. I like an America that doesn't look to blame itself for everything that happens in the world. I like an America that it's allies can look up to again and respect.


RE: Stuck between
By retrospooty on 7/23/2014 10:03:32 AM , Rating: 2
I'd like what you said too, but it's just platitudes, not specific ideas. As a matter of fact, that is an irritating thing that Obama does. Comes out with generic phrases and platitudes but no good workable ideas, then invariably blames the other side for anything that doesn't work.


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/2014 11:25:17 AM , Rating: 2
Well Retro I don't have to come up with better alternatives. The people of America didn't vote for me :) That job falls to someone else, unfortunately.


RE: Stuck between
By retrospooty on 7/23/2014 12:35:15 PM , Rating: 2
I just thought you were saying we are handling things wrong here, so I assumed you had an idea on what we should be doing other than sanctions... So I am still not sure at all what you are saying.


RE: Stuck between
By HomerTNachoCheese on 7/23/2014 1:59:27 PM , Rating: 2
I am not sure, either. I think he is not really saying anything. All I see are regurgitated ideas by the Republican Party that he so idolizes. Stating that he is an apologist is just another idea in the long line of ideas to turn America against its president. Well, at least the Republican Party has some ideas. They have been so successful in their campaign against the president that he now has only an average rating of 43%. (I would estimate the effects of this rhetoric to be 2% to 5% without any actual research.)

Over all the years that I have heard this apologist BS, I have yet to see an actual apology. Reclaimer, please quote the President's apology, I must have missed it.


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/2014 2:03:12 PM , Rating: 2
I don't need to have better alternatives to point out that Putin won't give a damn about sanctions. Sanctions are NOT a deterrent, just ask North Korea.


RE: Stuck between
By retrospooty on 7/23/2014 2:39:48 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, Sanctions aren't going to stop him, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't do them. It also doesn't mean we should do more. It's not an easy situation, and we don't have alot of options. The obvious options are either do nothing, sanctions/diplomacy, lend weapons, lend troops/wage war. The latter 2 suck, as it really isnt our business, and you seem to be against doing nothing about it, so... What?


RE: Stuck between
By vortmax2 on 7/23/2014 3:14:57 PM , Rating: 2
I have an idea, how about we wait until a full investigation takes place to find out who did what in the first place? It's an unfortunate situation, regardless of who did it, but let's stop the finger pointing until there's someone to point at.

In order for things to really change with Putin, there really needs to be a bipartisan, long-term strategy developed and adhered to. These short-term things only aggravate the situation. Unfortunately, anything bipartisan won't be possible with the current US government 'mix'.

IMHO, Putin's Russia will eventually implode, in time, as did the USSR.


RE: Stuck between
By retrospooty on 7/23/2014 3:21:11 PM , Rating: 2
+1 all good points.


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/2014 3:35:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I have an idea, how about we wait until a full investigation takes place to find out who did what in the first place?


Uhhh people who know way more than us about this issue has concluded that Russia is guilty of covering up evidence and tampering with the crime scene on an - I quote - "industrial scale".

From day one, this has had cover-up written all over it. Just the facts we do have are utterly damning. But the longer this goes on, the more evidence gets destroyed.

quote:
IMHO, Putin's Russia will eventually implode, in time, as did the USSR.


Given the unbelievable loss of life and misery of the Russian people under the USSR and other Communist leaderships, I take no solace in this fact.


RE: Stuck between
By vortmax2 on 7/24/2014 11:56:39 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Uhhh people who know way more than us about this issue has concluded that Russia is guilty of covering up evidence and tampering with the crime scene on an - I quote - "industrial scale".


If that's the case, then show this 'proof' to the world, set the record straight, and get the public (and media) on board for support.

quote:
Given the unbelievable loss of life and misery of the Russian people under the USSR and other Communist leaderships, I take no solace in this fact.


No solace was requested...just stating that a primarily non-interventionist approach may a decent path.


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/24/2014 11:59:03 AM , Rating: 2
They already did earlier in the week. Do you not read the news or something?


RE: Stuck between
By vortmax2 on 7/25/2014 4:22:28 PM , Rating: 2
As of today, all major news sources are still using words like 'alleged' and 'accused'. It doesn't sound like anyone is sure yet.


RE: Stuck between
By ritualm on 7/22/2014 9:01:46 PM , Rating: 2
You're basically claiming Putin shot down the plane.

Hold it right there bub.

Buk SAM launchers have an effective range of up to 25km, and both Russia and Ukraine have them. However, claiming Putin's Russia shot it down contains two MAJOR, FUNDAMENTAL flaws:

1. Buk's range, as mentioned above

2. Russia is 60km away from the MH-17's crash site. Add the 10km flight level and you're looking at a SAM with a ~61km range. No current Buk SAMs have such long ranges.

Reclaimer77, everything you posted about the Ukraine situation today is total unsubstantiated bullsh*t.
quote:
The country is overrun by Nazis and thugs. The govt was installed by a Nazi backed coup that was trained by NATO in Sept 2013 in Poland. They overthrew what was a verified democratically elected president(even Canada observed the election and recognized it). A jerk, but a democratically elected one. Victoria Nuland and the US handpicked the Junta Govt of Kiev. They were not elected. Their resumes are rather disturbing. Not just links to Neo-Nazi organizations but members of. Hell Svoboda is the former Nazi party of Ukraine. Almost literally. Translates to Socialist Nationalist Party of Ukraine. A party whose members(now part of current leadership) called for extermination of ethnic Russians. Not just in the past, but also again recently. Please just look at their resumes or wikipedia pages.

Crimea was not invaded. By international agreements and treaties Russia was allowed to have 25000 troops present at any time. Crimea is also home of the Russian Black Sea Fleet. Therefore there more than enough forces already present on Crimea.

These agreements also stated that if Ukrainian sovereignty was jeopardized Russia could step in to protect the ethnic Russians in Crimea. As they are the vast majority of the population. Crimea held a vote and voted at 90%+ for self determination and to join Russia. It was not annexed or invaded by Putin. There was no combat either. It was the peoples will.

...

The east is another matter. Kiev declared cuts to pensions and support to low income people. It also garnished a portion of the wages of those who are employed to pay for damages in Kiev. To the people of the east this was not just insulting but seen as punishment for voting for Yanukovych. Or for practicing their democratic rights. It wasn't just wages that were cut. Their right to their language and culture was also to be abolished according to Kiev. No more Russian language and no more Russian schools etc. 80% of all the Ukrainian population speaks Russian, and a good 80% of the population of the East itself are ethnic Russian if I recall correctly.

There were no Russian troops ordered there by Putin. There are some there on their own will, volunteers. Retired etc. Same with local police. Many militia are former law enforcement too.

...

In the east they sided with protesters and handed over much of their equipment to defend the cities against Kiev. Thus why much of the early firearms were soviet-era AKs and similar. The old stock from police armories. There are videos on youtube available that should show this. I watched it unfold on multiple occasions on live streams.

Now we've seen massacre upon massacre at the command of Kiev. Hundreds of civilians murdered and thousands wounded. Children included. Hospitals, orphanages and family homes were common targets of the Kiev sent thugs. Yet you hear nothing of it in Western media or what you do hear is whitewashed lies and propaganda.

A historical analogy is what happened to Germany in 1918, at the end of WWI. If you want history to repeat itself because you like to make the same mistakes again, go ahead, be my guest.


RE: Stuck between
By tayb on 7/23/2014 9:31:23 AM , Rating: 2
You aren't answering the question. Tell us EXACTLY what you think we should do.

Seriously, answer the question.


RE: Stuck between
By M'n'M on 7/22/2014 7:27:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The OP called it "rock and a hard place" so to speak. I tend to agree.

And I would add this is Europe's backyard. Until Europe grows a backbone, I don't see why the US should be willing, once again, to be out front and take all the heat.


RE: Stuck between
By flatrock on 7/23/2014 3:32:16 PM , Rating: 3
I think Obama and his administration are over-stretched.

Kerry despite his long tenure on the Senate foreign relations committee has never struck me as very competent in dealing with foreign governments. Obama lacks experience on foreign policy, and he doesn't seem to have chosen his advisers well to make up for that.

He is between a rock and a hard place. Much of that is because the Democrats and the media worked so hard to undermine Bush. Poor intelligence became Bush lied. Our conflicts were called a quagmire long before they became one.

I'm not saying that opposing views shouldn't be voiced, but there was a conscious effort to turn the public against the war because they were afraid not doing so would give Bush too much power.

Now we are in a situation where Russia has no fear of military confrontation, or even the US providing weapons and logistics to the Ukraine because the US people have been stirred up against any such intervention and those that stirred them up are in power.

The Democrats effectively took military intervention completely off the table. They removed the US as the world's only superpower as a deterrent.

Economic sanctions are the only thing left in Obama's arsenal.

Russia is a permanent member of the security council, so the UN is even more useless than normal.

The EU is too fractured and economically tied to Russia to do anything. France won't even cancel arms sales to Russia. I expect France's banks will violate any sanctions put in place like they usually do. The US can go after US branches of the banks that violate sanctions, but the French branches aren't likely to face serious penalties.

NATO won't do anything unless one of the strong members take the lead. The US and Great Britain would have been the most likely in the past, but lack domestic political support to do so now.

So Russia only really needs to worry about pissing off China.


RE: Stuck between
By enlil242 on 7/22/2014 5:35:44 PM , Rating: 1
Send anti-ballistic missile batteries BACK to the former soviet-era republics for one. that would send a message.


RE: Stuck between
By Milliamp on 7/22/2014 5:03:07 PM , Rating: 2
Russia doesn't care much about sanctions but what does the US have to do with the conflict? Are we to declare war on Russia and send millions of american lives into the meatgrinder of war? I certainly don't see you willing to grab an M16 and take to the front lines to subdue Russia over this.

People only like war when they can participate comfortably from their chair.


RE: Stuck between
By enlil242 on 7/22/2014 5:40:09 PM , Rating: 2
Russia is essentially helping usher in a 'new cold war.' There will be no shots fired, but we will go back to the days of mistrust, spying and calling each other the evil empire.

It doesn't help that they can't even admit to making a grave mistake by [assisting in] shooting down a civilian airliner. Instead they 'blame' the government of the very country they are fostering unrest.

We need a new leader in 2016 that will stand up to this nonsense. we are letting things literally spiral out of control.


RE: Stuck between
By ritualm on 7/22/2014 8:21:11 PM , Rating: 3
The main issue with Buk SAM launchers is their radar systems do not care whether it's a hostile fighter jet or a civilian aircraft - they all appear as blips on its radar displays. Its crews must be trained to identify and separate them.
quote:
The problem with the SA-11 is that it’s difficult to properly identify and track targets, but easy to fire missiles. “The skill comes in knowing what you want to shoot at,” says Cordes. That’s because the SA-11’s radar system shows the same “blip” for all different targets. The operator sees an aircraft’s altitude, air speed, and vector, but not it’s size or type, says Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic and International Studies. Airliners broadcast a four-digit transponder known as an IFF code that identifies them as civilian aircraft, and the SA-11 system is capable of picking up that information. But the training that goes into properly identifying aircraft takes months, especially since the window for acquiring and firing on targets is just a few minutes.

Source: http://www.wired.com/2014/07/sa-11-missiles-easy-t...

So the Buk launchers are like the majority of handheld firearms. It's incredibly easy to launch missiles with it; just press a button, of sorts, and you're done. Figuring out if the stuff you've got locked-on is indeed what you suspect it is, is not.

Whoever that downed MH-17 clearly did not have the prerequisite training to figure out that a Boeing 777 is not the same as an Antonov military cargo transport; it's a colossal FU. I highly doubt both the Ukrainian and Russian governments are involved in any degree regarding this shoot down.


RE: Stuck between
By M'n'M on 7/22/2014 11:57:40 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
So the Buk launchers are like the majority of handheld firearms. It's incredibly easy to launch missiles with it; just press a button, of sorts, and you're done. Figuring out if the stuff you've got locked-on is indeed what you suspect it is, is not.

Your last line is correct. The 1'st two grossly distort the reality of getting just the TELAR element of a SA-21 battery up and running. Someone got all the pieces up and ready. That means erecting the launcher from it's stowed/travel position into it's shooting position. And manually unsafing the missiles. It means getting the FireDome radar booted and into an operational (vs maintenance or training) mode. It means defining the search zones, frequency selection, no-rad zones and a myriad of other fine details. Once those are set someone has to get the radar into acquisition mode and upon detecting a target, getting it to track that target and then selecting the missile. Only then does the easy "push the button" part have any chance of success.

By way of analogy if I gave a untrained housewife a SA pistol and some rounds, how likely is it she would successfully hit a man sized target at 25 yds (assuming she figured out how to load the gun) ? I've taught people the fundamentals of shooting and watched them miss at 5 yds, until they get some range time and understood proper stance, breathing and trigger control.

So someone with knowledge of the system operated it that day. Some one taught that person. While not impossible it was a native, it's more likely that the training came from Russia ... along with all the other support ... like T62s and GRADs.

So if I hand my 10 yr old a loaded gun, gave him just enough training to operate the pistol and nothing on safe shooting rules, and told him to go out and play w/it in our suburban back yard ... should I be surprised when a neighbor is accidentally shot ? Would I be w/o any blame ?

That's Putin's problem. Helping half trained separatists operate a hi-tech weapon. Perhaps even supplying them with it.

I agree the shoot-down was a colossal FU. That doesn't mean there's no blame to be assigned.


RE: Stuck between
By tamalero on 7/23/2014 2:59:15 PM , Rating: 2
You mean.. the same spy jobs that the US as been exposed to be doing even to their own close allies? (like germany)

Please! the US actions are more war-causing than anything Russia as done so far.

The whole Propaganda machine on the US is putting Russia's and China's to shame!
and I'm saying this as a third party observer!.

Also, you keep pointing the finger to Russia regarding the "new cold war".
Russia is being cornered.. losing strategic allies worldwide by US indirect intervention (Syria, Ukraine).
The us is slowly encroaching Russia and setting "allies" with NATO partners right on their doorstep. Yet Americans think Russia would never fire back?
Americans would have nuked both Mexico, Cuba or Canada if they were taken over by Pro Russian OPS/Separatists (or at least make a full blown invasion to retake their control).

Worse is when you take these warmongering actions as propaganda to "vote to a new leader".
Vote to what? a guy like Cheney and Bush? Who conveniently lied about WDM, fabricated "evidence" and other things.. just to take down Saddam? (who W. Bush had a personal vendetta?)

Hilarious!

by the way, in case you conveniently forgot.. the US also took down a Airliner once. An Iranian Airliner and they NEVER apologized(they were still forced to pay compensations).


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/2014 3:40:41 PM , Rating: 2
That was just political theater. Germany knows goddamn well we've been spying on them, and we always have. And we know they spy on us whenever they have the opportunity.

I'm not saying we SHOULD be, mind you. I'm just saying that was all a show for the public. War-causing??? Please.

quote:
by the way, in case you conveniently forgot.. the US also took down a Airliner once. An Iranian Airliner and they NEVER apologized(they were still forced to pay compensations).


Oh no no, you're wrong. That was done by "Pro-American rebel separatists". See what I did there?


RE: Stuck between
By tamalero on 7/24/2014 11:29:46 AM , Rating: 2
I had a very long answer to counter your nosense (including the "pro american rebel separatists" bs ) but somehow Dailytech is bugged and declaring anything I type as spam.

Anyway.. your point is moot:
Because they didn't, it was a US Cruiser with that nation's flag and military trained personnel.

you're talking nosense.


RE: Stuck between
By Ushio01 on 7/22/14, Rating: 0
RE: Stuck between
By mik123 on 7/22/2014 6:12:30 PM , Rating: 2
Why did USA want to overthrow Yanukovich? I mean, what are the benefits to have Ukraine form closer ties to EU? How does it affect US?


RE: Stuck between
By Jereb on 7/22/2014 6:29:19 PM , Rating: 2
It slows the progression of russia building stronger ties with ex soviet countries for one.


RE: Stuck between
By mik123 on 7/22/2014 7:29:33 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, but why would such ties be bad for US?


RE: Stuck between
By Jereb on 7/22/2014 7:52:17 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know?

Maybe the people in power in the US would prefer a country they can influence over one that they cannot.
Maybe they don't want a stronger Russia?


RE: Stuck between
By mik123 on 7/22/2014 8:11:17 PM , Rating: 2
So, it seems to me, most Americans have no clue why their government is spending millions, if not billions, to overthrow a government in some country far away? That does not bother anyone?


RE: Stuck between
By Jereb on 7/22/2014 8:29:55 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not american.
But I still wonder why a lot of governments behave the way they do.


RE: Stuck between
By retrospooty on 7/23/2014 10:05:31 AM , Rating: 2
It bothers me and always has. We have been doing that crap since the end of WW2, and it still goes on today.


RE: Stuck between
By tamalero on 7/23/2014 3:03:45 PM , Rating: 2
I read that Yankovich changed sides.

He was PRO NATO and then the russians offered a better deal. So they left the NATO proposal in the dust.

For the NATO partners, that was inexcusable and they took him down via intelligence operation factored by the CIA (hence why the CIA officer went to Ukraine and then the US gave Ukraine monetary stimulus.


RE: Stuck between
By tamalero on 7/24/2014 11:31:01 AM , Rating: 2
Because he doublecrossed NATO?

He was suppose to join NATO and help encroach Russia.

He backpedaled and re-established relationships with Russia and left the link to NATO in the dust.


RE: Stuck between
By Milliamp on 7/23/2014 1:54:57 AM , Rating: 2
Source? Is this a conspiracy theory or something that is actually true?


RE: Stuck between
By Jereb on 7/22/2014 6:27:42 PM , Rating: 3
Is this much different to all the times the US has interfered in other countries. Notably South America, Afghanistan, Iraq. Supplying weapons to the Afghans to fight the Russians, giving weapons to the Contra's, giving weapons to the Syrian rebels? Quite a few atrocities were committed with all the US backed training and arming as well.

It sounds like this tragedy was a major f*ck up by the rebels. MAJOR!! As in pack it in guys you will never win the mind of the world back now.

But are we really laying this on Russia's doorstep? Both sides have finger in this situation. If both sides weren't so gung-ho about shooting at each other this probably would not have happened.


RE: Stuck between
By Ushio01 on 7/23/2014 11:16:43 AM , Rating: 1
It may be a major fuck up for the rebels but it's the airline and the air traffic controllers who sent an airline over a war zone who should be facing criminal prosecution.

Just look at Ritualm's post

Iran Air Flight 655 a European made Airbus A300 was mistaken for an Iranian owned USA made F14 Tomcat by the USS Vincennes a retired ship of a design that is still in service.

If the US military with all the money they have, have trouble telling an airliner from a fighter that they themselves used what chance do rebels have of telling the difference between a airliner and an attack aircraft coming to bomb them.


RE: Stuck between
By Reclaimer77 on 7/23/2014 11:22:30 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just look at Ritualm's post


I try not to.

You and he are doing a grave disservice to those who were murdered.


RE: Stuck between
By ritualm on 7/23/2014 2:21:12 PM , Rating: 2
Unlike the guy you replied to, I did not place any blame on the airline and the air traffic controllers in the MH17 shootdown. Quit putting YOUR words in my mouth.

That Iran Air 655 has many similarities as MH17 - both were allegedly mistaken as military aircraft, both were shot down, no survivors. USA made a boo-boo and refused to admit responsibility for downing the 655, and that took place 26 years ago - you were around 11 years old when the news broke.


RE: Stuck between
By Any14Tee on 7/27/2014 5:36:43 PM , Rating: 1
There are a lot of Red Flags which are being ignored, the separatist and the Kiev junta regime are equally culpable for bringing down the passenger plane but if you're sold into the Western media news, you'll accept Putin's to blame and he also ate my hamster.

Here's what I heard:

1] Traffic Controller directed the Malaysian airline into the war-zone as verified by the Malaysian authorities.

2] The pilot was instructed to reduce altitude, shortly afterwards contact with passenger airliner was lost.

3] The Spanish air-controllers working for the Ukraine air traffic control were told to leave, recorded messages between pilot and air traffic control were confiscated by the Ukrainian authorities.

4] Local eye witness account saw two Ukraine jets flying below the passenger airline and heard sound of explosion afterwards.

5] The fuselage and wreckage was riddled with holes, suggesting shell fire from a fighter plane.

6] The YouTube claiming rebels admitting responsibility was shown to be a hoax, the recording was made day before the passenger airline was shot down, which means the whole thing was planned allegedly ...And,

7] Why the Obama Administration and their allies in Kiev were quick to point the finger at Putin without first having full disclosure to the facts and who has most to gain from this?

True we're all thinking the same when it happened and accidental f**k ups always occur in war-zones but equally there are some questions to be answered from the Kiev authorities also.



RE: Stuck between
By ritualm on 7/22/2014 8:01:56 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
He invades a sovereign state.

You are clearly uninformed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kievan_Rus%27

Crimea has a strategic naval base for Russia's Black Sea fleet. Putin-Nation also has a long-term lease arrangement with Ukraine on the base. While American MSM likes to spin this as an invasion, the reality is very far from that alleged spin.

As an aside, the Kievan Rus' area changes hands throughout its existence more often than Japan changes its head of state.
quote:
He shoots down a civilian airliner killing everyone on board.

What a bold, biased, and baseless claim.

http://www.wired.com/2014/07/sa-11-missiles-easy-t...

And if you think USA is free from such accusations, try 26 years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655

When you point fingers at someone, you also have FOUR fingers pointing back at you.
quote:
Right or wrong, Putin has made the President of the United States his own personal prison bi*ch...

I'd rather live in Russia than the so-called "Land of the Free".


RE: Stuck between
By Jereb on 7/23/2014 5:13:11 PM , Rating: 2
Jesus, that is horrible.


RE: Stuck between
By atechfan on 7/23/14, Rating: 0
RE: Stuck between
By tamalero on 7/23/2014 2:49:01 PM , Rating: 2
is there any real evidence of that (other than Ukraine crying foul in the first hours of the downing that it looked incredibly suspicious? )


Misinformation
By SuckRaven on 7/23/2014 1:44:01 AM , Rating: 1
Who is to say that it wasn't the U.S. that shot down the plane, so we can smear Russia or Ukraine, in order that we would have an urgent, national, nay international "reason" to go in and bring "freedom" to yet another country?

The only thing certain at this point, is that nothing has been factually determined or concluded yet, and there has been no official investigation, but 'Bama & Co. are ever so trigger happy on the punishment to dole out to the "bad guys", in this case economic sanctions.

I also really doubt that Putin is stupid enough to pull a stunt like this, with all the spotlight on the Crimea thing, which of course is again grossly misrepresented in the U.S. media. Kudos to the people that give damn enough to have educated themselves about the history of the relationship between the Russian people IN Crimea, and the ties between those regions and people.

Now for the kicker... The result of the "investigation" will be bought by the highest bidder, to suit that country's agenda. Let's not be naive to think that anyone who has the power to influence the outcome of this evolving story will not turn it to his own needs. Sad that the death of people is used in such a manner, but then it wouldn't be international politics boys and girls.

No, I am not American. Yes, I live in America, and I like it here. But I will say that there are some real dumbasses in our government. The thing there is that it Obama really doesn't deserve the blame either. Not like he runs the show or anything. I've given up on Republican vs. Democrat, especially with respect to foreign policy, because the people we can "see" in government don't do shit anymore, because Puppet-masters usually like to remain hidden and anonymous. I'd say take your pick, but that means you could point to someone, or some enterprise or entity. Oh well, let's all sit back and watch the whole damn dumbshow.

Gonna go watch Conspiracy Theory now... =)




RE: Misinformation
By M'n'M on 7/23/2014 2:19:31 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Who is to say that it wasn't the U.S. that shot down the plane, so we can smear Russia or Ukraine, in order that we would have an urgent, national, nay international "reason" to go in and bring "freedom" to yet another country?

Hmmm, who's to say ... how about anyone w/a brain. Last I checked nobody in the US political class is asking for troops to go in and save Ukraine. Were it not for Crimea, nobody here would give a crap. If Europe is inclined to mouth off and do little else, the US is not more inclined to action. Obama campaigned on "cut'n'run" in Iraq and Afghanistan and got a lot of popular support for it. He waffled on Syria and only helped in Libya while hiding behind NATO. Now you think he ran a false flag so as to send troops to the Ukraine ? Why ?

Go back to your doctor and tell him your meds aren't working.

I'll leave open as to what assets you think we had in that area, that could down an airliner ... and do so w/the surety that the truth wouldn't come to light. You can post that while I make up a vat of MaiTais to numb the sheer stupidity of that post.


RE: Misinformation
By tamalero on 7/23/2014 3:08:41 PM , Rating: 2
the US does not need to invade.. the NATO forces could. the US only needs to SELL the WEAPONS and TOOLS.

its a direct proxy war.

Just like they missiled the hell out of Syria and Libya.
NATO just sat away and fired missiles at the distance(french and Us forces particularly) while the "rebels"(aka backed up forces by the US) did the ground fight.


RE: Misinformation
By M'n'M on 7/23/2014 8:24:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
the US does not need to invade.. the NATO forces could. the US only needs to SELL the WEAPONS and TOOLS. its a direct proxy war. Just like they missiled the hell out of Syria and Libya.

Is this the much heralded Soviet paranoia ? The Ukraine is not part of NATO. Nobody in the 'west' really cares about a destitute Ukraine. If they actually cared, there'd have been sanctions and more help than MREs. What reason, what pretext would NATO use ?

As for Libya, it took the request of the Arab League to the UN and Resolution #1973 before NATO intervened. You should note that the Arab Leaque is not what anyone would call pro-US and that Russia didn't veto the resolution. No doubt to Ghadflies indiscriminate bombing and artillery attacks on pure civilian targets.

And what ? When has NATO "missiled the hell" Syria ? Obama has refused to do much of anything, mostly because fear or arming the wrong rebels. Last I read the US contributed small arms and ammo. Perhaps some anti-tank TOW missiles, though that may have been Turkey's handywork. What missile attacks have you dreampt up ?


RE: Misinformation
By tamalero on 7/24/2014 11:39:48 AM , Rating: 2
Nice that you forgot that the original plan for the Ukraine president, was to join NATO.
Russia offered a better deal and discarded that idea. (It was in the news worldwide, no idea why noone here knows about this)

I dont think the NATO block (specially the US) would like that.
Ukraine is a very strategic point. IF Russia loses Ukraine.. they lose one of their most strategic naval bases.

Let's not forget that mere weeks after the whole Crimea crisis (after the ousting of Ukraine's president) the US sent one of their top CIA officers to Ukraine and immediately sent a "stimulus" package to Ukraine officials.

Also I'm not soviet, I'm a third party who honestly is sick of the interventionism of the world's power blocks.

As for the last part..
Both France, England and the US bombed the hell out of Syria from their Sea forces. Really? you guys havent seen the news? This happened in 2013!


RE: Misinformation
By M'n'M on 7/24/2014 2:06:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As for the last part.. Both France, England and the US bombed the hell out of Syria from their Sea forces. Really? you guys havent seen the news? This happened in 2013!

WTH ?! Are your meds that far off ?!? Action against Syria was threatened, but NEVER HAPPENED. Assad decided to give up his chemical weapons in a deal masterly crafted by Putin. No bombing, shelling or "missilering to Hell" ever happened.
quote:
Nice that you forgot that the original plan for the Ukraine president, was to join NATO. Russia offered a better deal and discarded that idea.

As for NATO ... former President Yushchenko declared in 2008 he wanted to join NATO. Later that year NATO said "No" . In 2010 new President Yanukovych put up a bill that was approved by the Rada prohibiting the Ukraine from joining "membership of any military bloc". Neither the interim govt nor the present President have expressed any different opinion (no doubt due to the civil war).

If you can't get the basic facts correct, I'm not going to waste my time w/you.

http://euobserver.com/defence/30212
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_of_Syria%...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine%E2%80%93NATO_...


RE: Misinformation
By tamalero on 7/25/2014 11:11:30 PM , Rating: 2
>*using wikipedia as source*

yeah...


RE: Misinformation
By M'n'M on 7/25/2014 11:56:28 PM , Rating: 2
Please do cite your sources for all that "missleing to hell" that you claim happened in 2013. I could cite more sources if you want. I picked some that I thought were at your grade school level.

Are you contesting my post, factually ? Can you post a cogent rebuttal ? Or is your sole response some piss poor insinuation ? Please ... we all need the laughs.


RE: Misinformation
By Milliamp on 7/23/2014 2:47:57 AM , Rating: 2
First you say:
>Who is to say that it wasn't the U.S. that shot down the plane

This is an incredibly stupid thing to believe. A healthy dose of skepticism is good but at some point I think conspiracy theory syndrome should be considered a form of mental illness.


jason mick bias
By slunkius on 7/23/2014 1:06:49 AM , Rating: 3
got to love how jason mick articles choose photos.
quote:
U.S. trade groups say antagonizing Russia will cost Americans jobs.

obama looks like he does not care, putin looks friendly and searching for solution. even little things, they help to push the agenda.




RE: jason mick bias
By atechfan on 7/23/2014 8:05:34 AM , Rating: 1
Obama always looks like he doesn't care, unless it affects his personal agenda. He's shown over and over he doesn't give a fuck about the country he is supposed to be leading.


RE: jason mick bias
By marvdmartian on 7/23/2014 8:29:40 AM , Rating: 2
Yep, Obama not giving a sh*t about anything but his agenda, or anyone but himself, would not be a stretch of the imagination, any day! If he could tie this in to gun control, I have no doubt he already would have!


.
By Grimer21 on 7/22/2014 4:58:41 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
entitties

That is all.




Good article, actually.
By Dadofamunky on 7/25/2014 2:12:16 AM , Rating: 2
This is almost humorous: "Both groups warned that the sanctions could cost the U.S. jobs. They have fallen more quiet in the wake of the MH-17 disaster, though, as calls to punish Russia for assisting rebels have grown."

Almost. Boo hoo. "Cost the U.S. jobs." Right. Sure. Russia has a lot more to lose than we do, with their pathetic attempts to imitate Silicon Valley with their subsidized tech parks while not respecting intellectual property law and running a corrupt thugocracy. Clamp down HARD on them. Strangle their economy. It worked with Reagan, and it will work again now. Obama is doing exactly the right thing. Do more, please.




RE: Good article, actually.
By Stilicho on 8/5/2014 7:04:43 AM , Rating: 2
Both countries benefit from mutual trade agreements. Threatening other countries with economical or military agression, in some cases invading them and seizing their assets, if they don't comply is not a sign of democratic country but a opressive undemocratic ruthless regime.

Unfortunately for you, I am talking about policies of US administration. If you did so much bad things to other people/countries and you DID, you should prepare to bare the responsibility of your own government/regime actions.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the people in the USA, but your own administration/regime is the cause of great suffering worldwide. Believe it or not, but your supremacy will end one day and the more blood you spill till that moment, more people will want to get revenge for that. It is sad, but it is how it goes (from historical point of view).

Take care and be responsible when you cast your vote. You choose the future for the rest of us as well.

;)


This Ain't The Cold War
By bitmover461 on 7/23/2014 3:39:47 PM , Rating: 2
What you're watching is a KGB Lieutenant Colonel outwit a community organizer. It would be comical if people weren't dying.




Dear Putin,
By RapidDissent on 7/24/2014 4:57:24 PM , Rating: 2
I dare ya.

-Yo Mama




interesting
By NellyFromMA on 7/28/2014 11:24:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
American and Russia are teetering on the brink of a new Cold War, economically


I didn't realize Jason writes articles about Russia as if he is from Russia now.




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