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Gas pumps need power too

Talk show host Rush Limbaugh has a history of going after electric vehicles and other green tech. In July 2010, the talk show host placed heavy criticism on General Motors and President Obama. Limbaugh blamed Obama for the poor state of General Motors and attacked the $40,000 Chevrolet Volt, stating, "Obama and the government are admitting nobody wants this." He was apparently referring to the large government incentives handed out to purchase the Volt.
 
It's worth noting at the time Limbaugh appeared to know very little about the Volt and how operated. He stated in 2010, "That 40-mile range has to include you getting home, and staying home three to four hours to charge the thing. It's (a) 20-mile range." If you follow cars and the Volt in particular, you know that the extended range electric vehicle has a 38-mile range on battery power alone and has an integrated gasoline generator that powers the car when the batteries are depleted.
 
In the wake of the massive storms recently in the Washington, DC area, Limbaugh is again taking a swipe at EVs and green technology such as solar panels and wind power. Many people in the DC area were without electricity for an extended period. Limbaugh makes a point that if you had purchased an electric vehicle using one of those government incentives, you wouldn't even be able to drive away from the storm stricken areas to a hotel since the car wouldn't have the electricity to charge.
 
 
Limbaugh quipped, "If you're in the DC area, are you happy you don't have an electric car? Yeah, with the power outages, are you happy you don't have an electric car? Because two million, five million, three schmillion, whatever. Aren't you glad you don't have an electric car? It's a good thing you don't have an electric car or you couldn't get around, you couldn't escape. Isn't it amazing."
 
Limbaugh also asks if people in Washington, DC that have solar panels and windmills for generating wind power are able to generate enough electricity to operate anything meaningful such as air conditioning. Or if the windmills are even still standing after the high winds generated by the storms.
 
He does make some points though. In the event of the major power outage like many in Washington, DC are experiencing, owners of electric vehicles are stuck. However, with no power to operate fuel pumps, drivers of gasoline-powered vehicles would face a similar problem as well.

You can read the full transcript of the Limbaugh show from July 2 at the source link. 

Source: Rush Limbaugh



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Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Arsynic on 7/6/2012 9:11:52 AM , Rating: 3
It was just a joke on top of that.




RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Digimonkey on 7/6/2012 9:25:13 AM , Rating: 5
What was a joke? Rush Limbaugh having a show?


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Richard875yh5 on 7/6/2012 9:51:27 AM , Rating: 2
Rush Limbaugh is an absolute moron. Why we allow a person like him to have a talk show is beyond me.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By kattanna on 7/6/2012 9:57:08 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Why we allow a person like him to have a talk show is beyond me.


I enjoy the fact we can have someone like him doing such a thing here in this country.

now.. why people choose to listen, LOL, thats another story.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Camikazi on 7/6/2012 9:58:42 AM , Rating: 4
Cause people like hearing morons talk and laughing at them (just look at reality shows), plus other morons like having a single moron to follow (again reality shows).


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By reggiep on 7/6/2012 10:16:10 AM , Rating: 5
It's more about people hearing someone of prominence echo their narrow point of view. It makes them feel validated. It's this same reason why people get so heated about politics or religion. Many people don't do well when others point out the many cracks and inconsistencies with their tightly held views.

The big problem with Limbaugh is that he does not deal in facts. He's all about lies and carrying water for liars. He does a disservice to everyone who listens. I would never listen to him, but I will defend the right of people to choose to do so.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/12, Rating: -1
RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Focher on 7/6/2012 11:11:31 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, the "Left" has known Rush is nothing but an "entertainer" for a long time. The ridiculous thing is that the "Right" treats him seriously, as if he has some useful political / social philosophy that is like a religion. And he's lived in that echo chamber so long, he thinks the same thing too now. For sure, he says outrageous things because it gets him attention. But so does my four year old.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By SPOOFE on 7/8/12, Rating: 0
RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By leviathan05 on 7/9/2012 10:54:16 AM , Rating: 2
If anybody in America thought a show on Comedy Central would be a good place to get their news, I pity the fool.


By HammerStrike on 7/9/2012 1:50:11 PM , Rating: 2
You know, Congress called Steven Colbert as an expert witness to testify in front a of committee on our immigration policy.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Flunk on 7/6/2012 11:13:05 AM , Rating: 4
Both left and right wing groups are massively intolerant. This is a divide that needs to disappear because it does nothing but encourage narrow-mindedness. The world is various shades of grey after all.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By jimbojimbo on 7/6/2012 11:59:45 AM , Rating: 4
I hate when people describe their whole political belief in simple labels like liberal, very liberal, or conservative. It just shows a clear narrow mindedness and follower mentality. Kind of like organized religion really but that's another subject. Everyone needs to think for themselves and stop following other people word for word.
Like many people out there I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal so we don't really have a party exactly except maybe Ron Paul.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/12, Rating: -1
RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Iaiken on 7/6/2012 12:39:20 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
How does using a combination of the same terminology to describe your own beliefs, separate you


Because like me, he doesn't subscribe to the BS one-dimensional political spectrum that the US system has devolved into?

I have nothing but love for regulated capitalism and the free market, but there are some things that I believe cannot be left to the free market; military, health care, baseline education and critical infrastructure. However, that doesn't mean that I think the government should be in the business of printing text books, designing & building weapons, researching drugs, paving roads, etc, those MUST be left to the free market and the private sector. However, I don't think that the private sector should be left to run amok either.

Likewise on the freedom side, I am of the negative liberty (freedom from) school of thought were people and companies are free to do whatever they like so long as it doesn't negatively impact others. This idea recognizes a critical aspect neglected by positive liberty (freedom to) in that there is no clear cut boundary between a person and the rest of society. The person must exercise proper restraint in the areas where their private life overlaps with public life, failure to do so will result in punitive action.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By The Raven on 7/6/2012 12:52:17 PM , Rating: 1
Hmm...so what you are saying is...you disagree with R77, so I take it you are a dirty liberal and I disagree with 100% of what you said. ;-)


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/2012 12:56:00 PM , Rating: 2
Actually I agree with a lot of what he said. I only teasingly call him a Liberal because of our oh-so memorable health care discussions. Plus he's Canadian so I gotta give him some crap about that :P


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/2012 4:04:34 PM , Rating: 2
lol the alternate account zombies are in full force this week. They're trying to silence me just like Rush!! Persecution!!! :P


By ImEmmittSmith on 7/9/2012 1:12:18 PM , Rating: 1
Don't worry there is still the silent voters that lurk behind the scenes to help even things out and enjoy the comments of all. :)


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By JediJeb on 7/9/2012 4:14:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Likewise on the freedom side, I am of the negative liberty (freedom from) school of thought were people and companies are free to do whatever they like so long as it doesn't negatively impact others. This idea recognizes a critical aspect neglected by positive liberty (freedom to) in that there is no clear cut boundary between a person and the rest of society. The person must exercise proper restraint in the areas where their private life overlaps with public life, failure to do so will result in punitive action.


So you are saying we have freedom of speech as long as we never talk about something that another person might disagree with outside of our own homes otherwise we will be punished?

People like Thomas Paine would have been considered criminals for writing something like "Common Sense" and distributing it to the public? Oh wait, he was considered a criminal by the British Government back then. Maybe you are saying we should have never fought the Revolutionary War or declared independence from Brittan and simply continued to live overly regulated and taxed lives to maintain the peace and serenity for the public good.

Freedom To, and Freedom From can both coexist and be in harmony, and must be for someone to truly be free.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By The Raven on 7/6/2012 12:31:16 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I hate when people describe their whole political belief in simple labels like liberal, very liberal, or conservative. It just shows a clear narrow mindedness and follower mentality.
Agreed. I hate having to identify my beliefs as in line with the ____ party. My beliefs are more complex than that.
quote:
Like many people out there I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal so we don't really have a party exactly except maybe Ron Paul.
You probably should identify as a Libertarian (even though you might not agree with everything).
http://www.lp.org/platform

I do so in spite of the above statement, but only because I want others to know that they are not alone in their desire for a significantly different gov't (one that shrinks rather than grows). It sounds to me that there are a lot of us out there but on paper I don't see it. I'm guessing it is because they all identify as either of the grow gov't parties. And independents always seem to be perceived as moderates (in between Ds and Rs) but when I was a registered independent I felt I couldn't be further from that.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By SPOOFE on 7/8/2012 4:01:53 PM , Rating: 2
It's hard to identify as a libertarian because the Libertarian party is such a mangled mish-mash of opinions; it should be called the Dissatisfied With The Other Two Party.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Reclaimer77 on 7/8/2012 4:07:59 PM , Rating: 2
lol Yeah, agree. Libertarian range from Conservatives to Anarchist and everywhere in between.


By The Raven on 7/9/2012 3:04:08 AM , Rating: 2
Seriously? Like the Rs and Ds are some laser focused groups? rofl

What you just said is Libertarians range from leave me the f alone to leave me the f alone. Big range there. You guys are looking at it from a different perspective.

Since the platform is one of INDIVIDUAL liberty then it by definition would include a wide range of ideas and opinions. What they ARE laser focused on is a minimal gov't. But if you think that we should continue to elect one group of people to micromanage the rest of us in their skewed idea of how things should be for the rest of us, then be my guest and vote 2-party. And if it is the anti-2 party vote, then so be it. Spofe made it sound like a bad thing.


By The Raven on 7/6/2012 12:45:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Like many people out there I'm fiscally conservative but socially liberal so we don't really have a party exactly except maybe Ron Paul.
Also I think the way you said this also is getting skewed a bit by those who follow politics. Sometimes I wish people would say that RP is socially liberal and economically liberal (instead of fiscally conservative). I think people would start to understand after thinking "Huh? What? RP is a liberal?" And bam they break out of the 2 party box that the "machine" has them buying into. Being fiscally conservative basically just means that you think however you want to push gov't down people's throats you just want to make sure that it is within budget ;-)


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By hubb1e on 7/6/2012 1:41:31 PM , Rating: 2
I'm in the same boat. I hate the religious right but prefer "fiscal conservatism," liberty, and individual responsibility. I'd say I'm in between libertarianism and conservatism. I'm actually a lot closer to my friend who calls himself a Blue Dog Democrat than a Social Conservative. Right now though, the rediculous economic policies of the left, the demonization of talent and wealth, the celebration of the victim, and the proliferation of Cronyism and a new type of Fascism in America has me siding with the social conservatives. It's a nessesary evil i guess though I cringe everytime I hear some idiot social conservative tell me they want freedom and then bash actual liberty.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/2012 2:53:11 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Right now though, the rediculous economic policies of the left, the demonization of talent and wealth, the celebration of the victim, and the proliferation of Cronyism and a new type of Fascism in America has me siding with the social conservatives.


Telling it like it is! +6.

quote:
I'm actually a lot closer to my friend who calls himself a Blue Dog Democrat


Sadly that dog is an endangered species. Maybe the last of his kind.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Ringold on 7/7/12, Rating: -1
RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By WalksTheWalk on 7/6/2012 12:19:18 PM , Rating: 2
The political problem is the divides are put in terms of one choice or another and leave out many other possible choices. With this situation we end up with an overall reduction in individual rights where we can exercise our own choices instead of just the choices provided by government.

On a side note, I don't think the world is shades of grey. The more you break down an idea/belief/whatever to its core essence, the more black and white the fundamental decisions become: is it A or B, B or C; do I believe A or B, B or C. There can be many conditions to an idea or belief but they can be put into a hierarchy if you break it down enough.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Zaralath on 7/6/2012 5:24:32 PM , Rating: 2
Kang/Bob Dole - abortion for some, tiny american flags for others.

Your other possible choices comment, made me think of that :)


By The Raven on 7/6/2012 12:48:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Both left and right wing groups are massively intolerant.
Not true. They are both massively tolerant of big gov't.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By knutjb on 7/7/2012 4:15:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Both left and right wing groups are massively intolerant. This is a divide that needs to disappear because it does nothing but encourage narrow-mindedness. The world is various shades of grey after all.
I beg to differ. Taking the moral relativism road is so easy. You get to knock whomever as crazy and always be correct. Sorry dude, that is a moral trap. At some point in life you will have to choose a side or a view. It's better to learn, develop, and choose on moral/ethical values rather than succumb to external pressures like a blade of grass under a brown shirt's boot. The constant pressure from any group to suppress intolerant speech is more dangerous the the speech itself. Suppression not only encourages narrow-mindedness but attempts to stop all other counter ideas and thoughts.

I doubt you have ever listened to Limbaugh, do so for a couple of weeks, even call in where you disagree. Most talk shows move contrary callers to the front of the line. I listen to as many differing shows as I can.

The world is various shades of gray but not all shades are good. The ability to discern between them is a hard earned skill that takes time to develop.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Ammohunt on 7/7/12, Rating: 0
RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Nutzo on 7/6/12, Rating: 0
RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Iaiken on 7/6/12, Rating: 0
RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/2012 12:04:38 PM , Rating: 2
What a surprise that Iaiken, Lord of Liberals, would say that about Rush lol.

If it weren't for the ongoing litany of lies and corruption coming from the Government and the progressives, Rush wouldn't have a show. Because he would be out of things to talk about.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By The Raven on 7/6/2012 1:15:22 PM , Rating: 2
Nice how you leave out the ~50% of the gov't known as republicans out of your remark. You say "gov't" like it is comprised of 100% democrats.


By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/2012 2:49:30 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't leave anyone out, and I don't believe Rush does either. Again you confuse party with ideology. There are MANY progressives in Washington, and a lot of them are Republicans. The decision by the mainstream Republican party to embrace some of these "Progressive" ideas has caused much consternation to us Conservatives. It's damned disappointing. It's weakened the entire party really.

You're just projecting and/or looking for a fight, when I implied no such things.


By NellyFromMA on 7/6/2012 11:44:27 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Many people don't do well when others point out the many cracks and inconsistencies with their tightly held views.


Just by reading your post, its interesting because you claim others have a narrow point of view, then condescend those that have an opinion different from yours.

Why do people claim higher ground when they tread the exact same dirt....? That is the true problem... you describe it then participate in it... Hardly helpful to contributing towads sensible solutions to anything. Just my two.

If you want someone to get off their perch, maybe you should consider the same? You seem able to realize the issue, with a little more discipline you could maybe set an example?


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By rburnham on 7/6/2012 5:04:22 PM , Rating: 2
Rush took his show where the money is.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By knutjb on 7/7/2012 4:18:59 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, it is called entrepreneurship and capitalism.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/2012 10:27:19 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Rush Limbaugh is an absolute moron. Why we allow a person like him to have a talk show is beyond me.


Rush Limbaugh personally transformed AM radio into a dying format, into one people actually listen to. Even better, invest advertising dollars into.

Do you realize how impossible doing what he has is? The 12 to 3 pm time slot, right in the middle of the working day, is probably the worst time slot you could give someone.

That's why people "allow" him to have a talk show. He gets listeners and makes radio stations money. Just like Howard Stern used to do.

If that makes him a moron, then what are you?


By johnsmith9875 on 7/12/2012 5:11:28 PM , Rating: 4
Professional Wrestling is popular too, doesn't make it good for society either.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Adonlude on 7/6/2012 11:01:32 AM , Rating: 3
You don't like the first amendment?


By espaghetti on 7/7/2012 11:38:11 AM , Rating: 2
He's a moron, but you've never heard of the First Amendment?
One of the things it gives you is the freedom of speech.
You sir are a moron.
See, I am free to say that.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By Jeffk464 on 7/6/2012 6:42:40 PM , Rating: 4
His head is so full of hot air that he alone is causing global warming. Why does anyone listen to that blow-heart.


RE: Days Late and A Dollar Short
By jvillaro on 7/9/2012 3:07:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What was a joke? Rush Limbaugh having a show?

No, Rush Limbaugh on his own, that he has a show is just sad


I'm curious about how green EVs actually are
By superstition on 7/6/2012 9:18:28 AM , Rating: 3
Are EVs as green as people claim?

I read an article that said plug-in hybrids are less environmentally friendly than traditional hybrids because many of them will be powered by coal power. When I posted that I got mocking responses, but unless coal plants have mercury traps and other pollution-control devices, it seems like a valid concern given the high level of sophistication exhaust treatments have for gasoline and diesel today. Of course, oil spills are a big problem, too.

My experience with laptops has made me pretty suspicious of batteries. It seems like I'm always buying a new one and it takes resources and energy to make them. Also, given that the US allowed China to take control of rare earths, are there alternative batteries that are just as efficient that don't rely on them?

If indeed EVs and plug-in vehicles are greener than 100% petroleum powered ones then that will be welcome news. Plug-in hybrids, I assume, are better because they won't be so impacted by cold weather.




RE: I'm curious about how green EVs actually are
By bug77 on 7/6/2012 9:37:16 AM , Rating: 2
All you have to do is look at the battery: it's full on environment friendly, easily recyclable substances and needs replacing from time to time. Assuming all electricity came from renewable sources, putting millions of batteries on the road is anything but clean. Granted, instead of getting CO2 in the air you could just bury the batteries like we do now with nuclear waste.


By Smilin on 7/6/2012 10:41:55 AM , Rating: 3
Not sure about LiIon but lead acid batteries are incredibly friendly to the environment. I believe the lead in them is recycled at a higher rate than aluminum. Some 90-95% of batteries are recycled and this accounts for well over half of the lead supply.

Lithium ion seems it would be a pain to recycle but the value of the materiel may make it worth it.


RE: I'm curious about how green EVs actually are
By Trisped on 7/6/2012 5:06:15 PM , Rating: 2
I have never seen an "environment friendly" battery unless it was made from food.

That they can be recycled is true, but there are costs making, recycling, and sometimes using the battier which should be considered.

Green is all relative. Is it more "green" to dig up rare and toxic minerals to make a battery? Is it more "green" to pump crude from pockets deep under the earth?


By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/2012 5:11:29 PM , Rating: 2
The batteries these people are talking about are filled with Kool-Aid.


By Zaralath on 7/6/2012 6:05:26 PM , Rating: 2
OH YEAH!!

Sorry, couldn't resist :)


RE: I'm curious about how green EVs actually are
By ltfields on 7/6/2012 9:48:06 AM , Rating: 2
I'll see if I can address your concerns as best I can, other folks are welcome to chime in too if I have my facts wrong:

1. True, the biggest share of electricity generation in the US is from coal (http://www.eia.gov/energyexplained/index.cfm?page=... however even a relatively dirty coal plant is still more efficient at generating energy than thousands of internal combustion engines. The new low sulfur diesel helps those engines quite a bit though.

2. EV batteries generally include systems around the battery to manage temperature and discharge rates to maximize the lifetime of the battery, and are generally made to better tolerances than laptop batteries, which is why the car companies are offering long warranties on the batteries. They wouldn't dare offer EVs if there was a 10 year warranty on the batteries and the failure rate at 5 years was 50%...

3. The US didn't really allow China to take control of rare earths, so much as corruption in China allows manufacturers there to undercut almost everyone else in the world on prices, making it unprofitable to run a mine in the US. And that undercutting is usually below what it would cost a US mining company even if we got rid of nearly all the mining regulations (IMO). Also, it's not the batteries that need rare earths in an EV, it's the motors. Lastly the batteries can be recycled and made from recycled materials.

4. When looking at the "greenness" of a vehicle, it's important to look at the whole lifecycle of the vehicle. Gas/Diesel vehicles tend to have a lower build/acquisition cost and higher operating costs. EVs have higher build/acquisition costs and lower operating costs. We're in probably a 10-20 year transition period right now, and I do think that gas vehicles will be around for another 50-100 years, but that the virtual hegemony that gas vehicles have had for the last century is coming to an end.

On a side note, my wife and I love our non-plugin hybrid, but we think the best of all worlds might still be a diesel plugin hybrid. Just sayin...


By ironargonaut on 7/8/2012 1:09:14 AM , Rating: 2
On item one, does your statement take into account that their is a 50% energy loss in the transmission alone of the electricity? So, while a coal plant is more efficient at generating energy at the source...is it more efficient if you measure where it counts at the point of usage?

The problem is we don't have an excess of electricity for every EV we need to generate more. Which means we will need to burn more fossil fuels to power the EV then we would need to for a car using gas. Wind mills and solar panels can't replace fossil fuels. How much is harder to calculate, efficient of transmission, generation, and storage vs. efficency of a combustion engine.

Rush's main point was correct. The Volt was/is a flop. Pointing out a mistake on mileage is just a diversion from this main point.

Give me a source that creates very cheap and clean excess electricity and I will be all for more electric vehicles, until then no thanks.


By Digimonkey on 7/8/2012 10:56:56 AM , Rating: 2
Most coal power plants will maintain about the same output of power through out a 24 hour day. During the night power needs are drastically less, so charging a car during this time instead of that power being wasted makes a lot of sense.

Rush's main point wasn't correct about the Volt since the Volt uses Gasoline. Unless you are just talking about the general sales outlook.


By Jaybus on 7/9/2012 12:57:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
does your statement take into account that their is a 50% energy loss in the transmission alone

That is not even close to true. The US DOE gave the national average as 6.5% in 2007. The US EIA estimate of losses, by state, ranges between 6 and 9% for 2010. In any case, greater than 93% of the generated electricity is consumed by end users.


RE: I'm curious about how green EVs actually are
By Focher on 7/6/2012 10:31:52 AM , Rating: 2
Even if you assume coal (the absolute worst for CO2 emissions) as your fuel for generating electricity at the power plant, an EV is more environmentally friendly than an internal combustion engine (ICE). Power plants are considerably more efficient at converting fuel to propulsion energy than the ICE is in every car on the road. As for the longevity of the batteries used in today's EV or plug-in hybrid cars, it's a very different story than the batteries in consumer electronics. Consider the Volt, which has a 16 KW battery. There is a coolant system to maintain optimum battery temperature during the life of the battery, and GM has smartly engineered the car to use only the "middle part" of about 10 KW. Over a 10 year life span, it's very unlikely that an owner of the Volt would see any impact on the battery or the range of the car on battery (besides still have a 37 MPG ICE always available even if the battery was useless).

Finally, the environmental impact of recycling lithium batteries approaches nowhere near the pollution over time of a CO2 spewing ICE. No one claims batteries have zero environmental impact, but they come nowhere near an ICE.


By Nutzo on 7/6/2012 11:11:59 AM , Rating: 3
While the power plant is more efficient, you forgot to include the power lost during transmission and while battery charging.

As for Battery life, we will have to wait and see. Battery life in the Toyota Hybrids have been pretty good, with many lasting over 200k miles due Toyota minimizing the charge/discharge levels. A plugin car will put more stress on the batteries due to the higher charge/discharge cycles.

I doubt and of these batteries will last 20+ years like some gas powered cars do.


By ironargonaut on 7/8/2012 1:12:49 AM , Rating: 2
You spew CO2 and I spew CO2. Trees breathe CO2. CO2 is not a pollutant.


RE: I'm curious about how green EVs actually are
By Iaiken on 7/6/2012 10:41:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
many of them will be powered by coal power.


This depends entirely on where you are and you have to remember that while it is true for most of the US/China/India, the these are not the only car markets in the world. In continental Europe, Canada, Brazil, Japan and Australia the overwhelming majority of the power comes from a combination of Nuclear, Hydro, Wind, Solar and natural gas generation stations. So even if EV's don't make sense for the US/China/India, they still make sense for a huge segment of the worlds population.


RE: I'm curious about how green EVs actually are
By Spuke on 7/6/2012 11:52:55 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So even if EV's don't make sense for the US/China/India, they still make sense for a huge segment of the worlds population.
US/China/India IS a huge segment of the population! LOL! There's more people in China alone than in those countries you listed combined. Don't believe me? Look it up.


By lennylim on 7/6/2012 12:09:15 PM , Rating: 3
China and India are not large EV markets yet - though there seems to be a fairly big electric bicycle market in China.


RE: I'm curious about how green EVs actually are
By Iaiken on 7/6/2012 12:10:01 PM , Rating: 2
I should have been clearer, the worlds car-buying population.

Only the tiniest fraction of people in China and India can even afford to buy/operate cars. For example, China has a population of 1.3 billion, but only 100 million cars, of which only 11 million are model year 2000 or newer. In that same period, Canadians bought 12 million cars despite their comparatively tiny population of 34 million.


By Spuke on 7/6/2012 12:16:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I should have been clearer, the worlds car-buying population.
Gotcha, nevermind what I said.


By johnsmith9875 on 7/12/2012 5:08:10 PM , Rating: 2
China's potential as a car market is exploding. Imagine a country that owns 3 times as many cars as the USA, that will be China very soon.
Considering their cities are already enveloped in a smelly yellow fog, I can only wonder what a China + cars will be like.


RE: I'm curious about how green EVs actually are
By JonFoo on 7/6/2012 1:58:32 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In continental Europe, Canada, Brazil, Japan and Australia the overwhelming majority of the power comes from a combination of Nuclear, Hydro, Wind, Solar and natural gas generation stations


Most of Canada's power is from Hydro but thats because we have a monopoly on rivers.. except in the prairies. I live in Alberta and we get 74% of our power generation from coal.

Electric vehicles are more costly on the environment then internal combustion. I dont beleive C02 is harmful while heavy carbon particulates from burning coal are. Also the refining of rare earths and various other metals (nickel) are seriously damaging to the enviroment. Oil drilling is fairly no invasive. Even oil sands are being reclaimed and new technologies (SAG-D) are being developed to make the removal of the oil from the sand much more enviromentally freindly

I also work about 50 miles from my home and my boss is not going to let me use his electrical outlet to charge my vehicle


By johnsmith9875 on 7/12/2012 5:06:19 PM , Rating: 2
Coal plants have scrubbers, unless you live in North Korea or Communist china.
CO2 is a terrible pollutant, just wait until the oceans stop absorbing the stuff...we're gone at that point as a civilization. A bit of carbon dust we can live with.

You sound like a spokesperson for the oil industry or somebody who has heavily invested in it.


By alpha754293 on 7/6/2012 12:50:06 PM , Rating: 3
The problem with this type of analysis/comparison is that you would have to do the same end-to-end systems level analysis for petroleum fueled cars.

And good luck trying to get the pollution/emissions data from the petroleum industry.

I think that's a fair and valid answer, but you have to level the playing field by asking the same type of questions for a gas or diesel car. And the one thing I've noticed whenever people talk about HEVs/PHEVs/EVs is that very tiny fraction of a percent even bother think about that question, let alone asking it.


By tecknurd on 7/6/2012 8:52:53 PM , Rating: 1
superstition, Where I live power companies have two different sets of packages. One is the traditional package that gets power from multiple different sources. The other is a green package that only gets power from power sources that are green. If people bought a EV or a Hybrid vehicle and signed up to the green package, then it will be environmental friendly. The great thing from what I read being on the green package is solar panels can be mounted to minimize the monthly bill. Though statistics are showing that EV and Hybrids are bad because the traditional power plans actually are getting power mainly from coal and nuclear. Until you change the plan to a green package, the statistics are then FUD.


How so?
By Spuke on 7/6/2012 9:47:07 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
However, with no power to operate fuel pumps, drivers of gasoline-powered vehicles would face a similar problem as well.
How are people with gas cars stuck too? Most people I know have at least a 1/4 tank of gas at all times. In my car, that's good for ~100 miles. Unlike an EV which is near depletion daily and would NOT be able to get a full charge (cause, you know, no electricity). The last major outage I was in (when I lived on the east coast and had a different car), I drove ~80 miles to get to a place that did have power and I was able to fill up.




RE: How so?
By ltfields on 7/6/2012 9:51:29 AM , Rating: 2
1/4 tank is good for 100 miles in my little car as well, but my dad's old F150 gets 9MPG and his Navigator gets about 14MPG (I got it to 19MPG going 50 downhill from my Uncle's house one time, but man that took dedication). If he had to drive 80 miles during a power outage, he's SOL...


RE: How so?
By Spuke on 7/6/2012 10:05:27 AM , Rating: 2
I have a diesel F250 that gets 16 mpg. We had a gas 2004 Tundra before that and got the same. Not sure why your dad's F150 gets crappy mileage. Also, those two vehicles have much larger gas tanks so even at 9 and 14 mpg, they probably still have a 180-200 mile range. Do you guys live in the city?


RE: How so?
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/6/2012 10:01:51 AM , Rating: 2
1) I'll drive my car until the gas light comes on, and then some. When the light first comes on, I have 40 miles left. When the gas gauge starts flashing wildly, I have about 15 miles left.
2) Volt doesn't have range anxiety
3) The Leaf has an EV range of 70+ miles. Depending on your commute, you'd probably stil have juice left.
4) The Tesla Model S have a range of at least 160 miles and as high as 300, so unless you have a crazy long commute (doubtful for someone who purchased an EV), a power outage isn't going to strand you unless it goes on for days and days.


RE: How so?
By Spuke on 7/6/2012 10:22:07 AM , Rating: 2
I drive till my gas light comes on too but I accept that behavior as stupid. :) I know I can drive at least 15 miles with my gas light on, I have no idea how far I can go though. The Leaf has a 70 mile range yes but how many times does a power outage happen after you're fully charged? The few around here tend to happen more towards the end of the day or at night. Even if it happened earlier, you'd be at work and had used up half your charge on your commute. The Tesla Model S? Really? How many people are going to have one of those? Not worth mentioning IMO but since you did, do you frequent the Tesla forums? Most of the Tesla owners treat these as play toys not commuters. In reality, there is no problem as all EV owners have gas cars sitting at home. As long as you can make it home, you're good to go.


RE: How so?
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/6/2012 10:29:57 AM , Rating: 2
I was simply mentioning the EVs available to purchase today, don't shoot the messenger ;)

As for your battery status when the power goes out, who knows? It's dumb luck, you can't predict those kids of things. That being said, I've lived in NC for 26 years... I've never been without power for more than three hours even during horrible storms **knock on wood**

And as I said, the Volt is the best seller, and is the vehicle that Rush bashes the most. In that one particular case, his argument fails with regards to outages.


RE: How so?
By Spuke on 7/6/2012 11:45:17 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
And as I said, the Volt is the best seller, and is the vehicle that Rush bashes the most. In that one particular case, his argument fails with regards to outages.
He's definitely wrong about the range but who knows what he actually meant as he's taken out of context quite a bit. I used to listen to him back in the early 90's. IMO, he had an interesting alternative viewpoint on things back then but now it just seems he's just interested in ratings and shock value.


RE: How so?
By ironargonaut on 7/8/2012 1:37:37 AM , Rating: 1
"Volt is the best seller" of EVs 8,817 in six months. How many MILLION cars were sold in that six months. Roughly 7 million. That is 0.12%. Cherry pick facts much?

Rush was right in general people don't want them.

The longest I've been without power is 7 days. Routinely lose power for 24hr periods. Have many oil burning lanterns. So, no his arguement does not fail in regard to outages.

Article fails to mention that many gas stations have backup generators therefore they can pump gas without the grid.


RE: How so?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/2012 10:35:49 AM , Rating: 2
Brandon in that quote I don't see Rush singling out the Volt. He just says "electric car". The Volt might not have range anxiety issues, but electric vehicles sure do.


RE: How so?
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/6/2012 11:02:13 AM , Rating: 2
I just mentioned the Volt because Rush has a raging hardon for bashing it. It personally isn't my cup of tea, but I can see the appeal of the vehicle.


RE: How so?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/6/2012 11:06:28 AM , Rating: 2
Who doesn't love bashing the Volt when Obama is the official spokesman for the damn thing? :P


RE: How so?
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/6/2012 11:17:19 AM , Rating: 2
LOL, you have a point there :)


RE: How so?
By johnsmith9875 on 7/12/2012 5:09:49 PM , Rating: 2
When you bash the Volt you're bashing AMERICA. Bashing Obama is just a hidden way of saying you hate black presidents, even if we have only had one so far.


RE: How so?
By fishman on 7/6/2012 12:18:42 PM , Rating: 2
I can understand someone bashing the Volt - The $7K rebate from the government for buying it, and the $20K ($13K after rebate) higher cost than a similar conventional car.


RE: How so?
By Natch on 7/9/2012 11:04:15 AM , Rating: 3
Not to mention, the most important thing, when considering fuel versus electric, during a power outage....

YOU CAN'T SIPHON ELECTRICITY FROM THE WALL OUTLET.


RE: How so?
By johnsmith9875 on 7/12/2012 4:24:00 PM , Rating: 2
God gives you electricity free from the sky, you just gotta harvest it.


NOT a Rush fan...
By Beenthere on 7/6/12, Rating: 0
RE: NOT a Rush fan...
By Focher on 7/6/2012 11:05:23 AM , Rating: 2
US taxpayers don't financially support EVs unless they buy one. There is a tax credit - not a rebate. You only get a credit to offset your own tax liability. Also, the NHTSA sets the CAFE (MPG) standards in coordination with Congress. The EPA has nothing to do with it. There are many cars that comply or exceed the US CAFE standards (which are much lower than other modern countries) so it's disingenuous to claim they have no scientific or practical basis ... as they are practiced.


RE: NOT a Rush fan...
By Spuke on 7/6/2012 11:55:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
US taxpayers don't financially support EVs unless they buy one.
In which case, we financially support EV's. LOL! I believe we should NOT finance their purchase at ALL, period!


RE: NOT a Rush fan...
By jimbojimbo on 7/6/2012 12:05:52 PM , Rating: 2
So if someone buys an EV and gets that tax credit who's the person actually paying the taxes?? The ones NOT buying the EV. So yes, we do support EVs by funding the government whereas EV buyers don't have to.


RE: NOT a Rush fan...
By Nutzo on 7/6/2012 12:11:59 PM , Rating: 2
I always hear people complain about "Tax breaks for the rich", yet this is exactly what the tax credit on the Volt is.

The typical Volt buyer earns over $120K/year, so much for soaking the rich.

Currently about 1/3 of the Volts are being sold in California, which add an additional $1500 rebate, plus allows single drivers to use the carpool lanes.

That adds up to a $9000 tax cut for the rich.


RE: NOT a Rush fan...
By Spuke on 7/6/2012 12:24:46 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
The typical Volt buyer earns over $120K/year, so much for soaking the rich.
$120k a year ain't no where near rich but I agree 100% that these people can afford this car on their own and don't need everyone else's help to do so. BTW, you gotta have $7500 in tax liability to get the entire $7500 credit (there's no refund on a tax credit...all goes to pay your taxes). My wife and I make $150k combined and don't have anywhere near that in tax liability (we actually got refunds last year and the year before from the Fed, state is a different story).


RE: NOT a Rush fan...
By johnsmith9875 on 7/12/2012 4:23:14 PM , Rating: 2
I shouldn't be forced to support wars or abortion but I have to anyway. Its all part of being a citizen and understanding that when you are part of a group sometimes you have to make a few personal sacrifices.

Apparently Rush doesn't believe in this basic humaan concept as he is an island of pure thought.


Really?
By km9v on 7/6/2012 11:06:55 AM , Rating: 1
I consider myself a moderate republican. I can only identify w/ maybe 25% of what these right wing nut jobs spew. The Volt is a great car. The best of both worlds. If auto companies sell EVs & hybrids, great. They are not completely cost effective. But why bitch & moan about them? Nobody is putting a gun to your head to purchase these vehicles. There's no good reason to hate on EVs & hybrids. Rush is a D-bag & makes republicans look ignorant & bad.




RE: Really?
By jimbojimbo on 7/6/2012 12:07:18 PM , Rating: 2
I like the Volt too but $40k is WAY too expensive and they shouldn't ever set their price based on the available tax credit. $40k is $40k not $32,500, which also is way too expensive.


RE: Really?
By EricMartello on 7/6/12, Rating: 0
RE: Really?
By Odysseus145 on 7/6/2012 7:54:54 PM , Rating: 1
Pickens is investing a lot into wind power. He is right now building a 377 MW wind farm in Texas. He scaled back a few years ago when the price of natural gas came down, but he's still a leading proponent.


RE: Really?
By EricMartello on 7/6/2012 11:24:12 PM , Rating: 2
He has already admitted publicly that his bet on wind was a bad one and at best he may just be trying to minimize his losses. He is now going back to natural gas...point is, wind power is one of those ideas that looks good on paper but fails in practice.


RE: Really?
By Reclaimer77 on 7/7/2012 9:08:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Solar panels, like battery tech, just lack the capacity to be practical and are too dependent on having ideal weather to operate efficiently.


And WAY too expensive. My parents are building a new house and recently priced a solar hot water heater system. At $9,000, it would take my parents approximately 15-20 YEARS to start seeing any savings over a traditional $400 hot water heater.

Needless to say, they aren't "going green" just yet.


RE: Really?
By ven1ger on 7/10/2012 4:14:11 PM , Rating: 2
Somehow I think some of your facts misleading or got some things incorrect.

If it costs about $9,000, I assume they're putting in two systems with two tanks, Mine was a little over $9,000 with two 80 gal tanks. Now, mine came with State credits, so my out of pocket came to about $7500. And I've already seen cost savings at about $150-200 per month in electricity costs. System will have paid for itself within 3-4 years, though we have some of the highest electricity costs in the nation. But on the average for the average solar water heating units, it is averaged about 8 years for ROI, and systems have a life expectancy of 20 years.


RE: Really?
By ironargonaut on 7/8/2012 1:48:06 AM , Rating: 2
You are wrong. Yes, someone is putting a gun to my head to purchase these vehicles. As previously mentioned a $7500 dollar rebate from the Fed. gov't is given to purchasers of these vehicles. That means other taxpayers and myself have to make up that money or finance the borrowing of it. If I did not pay my however small cost of that a court summons would be issued and a man with a gun would force me to go the court and if I still refused to pay a man with a gun would drag me to jail and a man with a gun would force me to stay there. Since, I don't want to go to jail I pay my taxes.
So, you are absolutely wrong someone is putting a gun to my head to finance the purchase of these vehicles.


RE: Really?
By DT_Reader on 7/9/2012 3:12:12 PM , Rating: 2
Can't read? He said nobody is putting a gun to your head to purchase these vehicles. You replied by saying that someone is putting a gun to your head to subsidize someone else's purchase of these vehicles. Big difference.

And so what? Those same people are using their guns to force me to buy them more guns, which I object to buying. They're forcing me to pay pensions to Congresscritters that I would rather see shot than paid a fortune for life. If they're gonna get a fat pension the least they can do is retire from Congress! They're forcing me to pay the oil companies (via corporate welfare) to pollute our planet. The list goes on. Why should you be allowed to complain about subsidizing the stuff I like but I'm not allowed to complain about being forced to subsidize stuff that you like? Get over it.


Do they make hand pumps for electricity?
By jwdR1 on 7/6/2012 9:13:26 AM , Rating: 2
...I know they do for gas. :)




RE: Do they make hand pumps for electricity?
By MindParadox on 7/6/2012 9:43:06 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Do they make hand pumps for electricity? by jwdR1 on July 6, 2012 at 9:13 AM ...I know they do for gas. :)


Yeah, hand/motion crank chargers. New things, been around since like 1940 :)

Even have generators that can be attached to a car now, they call em "Alternators" that take the movement of the belts and turn that into electricity to charge the battery :)


By MindParadox on 7/6/2012 9:43:51 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
been around since like 1940 :)


actually, even earlier than that! :)


By Schrag4 on 7/6/2012 4:01:31 PM , Rating: 2
Yes but the problem is you'd have to crank away for hours just to get enough juice to move your car a few hundred yards. You'd be much better off walking.

With a hand-crank, you're supplying the energy to move an entire car many miles, which is a lot more than a human can produce in a reaslistic timeframe. That gasoline that you're pumping already has the energy stored in it. With the pump, you only need to supply the energy to move the gas a few yards from the tank underground into the tank in your car. You might work up a sweat but then you'd be good to go for the next 300 or 400 miles.


Not a Rush Fan
By Isidore on 7/6/2012 10:17:45 AM , Rating: 3
Not being in the US, I have a rather hazy view/ knowledge of Rush, but he does remind us of one essential point. I can keep 5 gallons of fuel in my garage which will get me a long way in a typical European car, almost 200 miles, even if my car tank were completely empty when the pump power fails. There is no equivalent economic way of storing the electrical equivalent energy. This is the essential problem with electrical power generation and especially a problem with wind farms.




RE: Not a Rush Fan
By Rukkian on 7/6/2012 12:34:16 PM , Rating: 3
You can also keep a generator in your garage (which many people have for emergencies).


...
By The Imir of Groofunkistan on 7/6/2012 9:31:37 AM , Rating: 1
Yes, gas pumps would not work as well, but most gas engined cars would have the range to make it to a station that did have power. If you took an purely electric car far enough to find electricity to charge it, you'd still have to wait the 6-12 hours to charge it.




RE: ...
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 7/6/2012 9:43:43 AM , Rating: 2
To that point, then it wouldn't even be an issue for Rush's favorite whipping boy, the Volt, since it also has a gas tank.


I love...
By bupkus on 7/6/2012 1:33:22 PM , Rating: 1
I love Rush and George W Bush.

This is the only thing this f'n sperm guard will allow me to write.




RE: I love...
By bupkus on 7/6/2012 1:35:09 PM , Rating: 2
F.U. D.T.


freelance
By PittmanKen18 on 7/6/2012 11:42:51 PM , Rating: 2
my friend's mother makes $67 every hour on the internet. She has been out of a job for 9 months but last month her paycheck was $7203 just working on the internet for a few hours. Read more on this web site... makecash16 com




Rush has a point...
By SunLord on 7/7/2012 1:59:38 PM , Rating: 2
The Volt sucks based on looks as it looks pretty similar to a Cruze and doesn't really stand out now I'd personally be all over the Volt if they used the more exotic Opel Ampera body panels they look far better and it standouta more. The only thing I'd keep looks wise from the Volt is its tail light design which look better then the Ampera I think




PC's need power too
By johnsmith9875 on 7/12/2012 4:19:38 PM , Rating: 2
I'm so glad I have a gasoline-powered laptop. Its a little smoky but it keeps me from having to fund lefty liberal pro-electric energy causes.




I have a question
By FITCamaro on 7/6/2012 2:05:48 PM , Rating: 1
Why is this on a tech site?




Who is Rush
By Focher on 7/6/12, Rating: 0
Why he's just wrong.
By Smilin on 7/6/12, Rating: -1
RE: Why he's just wrong.
By NellyFromMA on 7/6/2012 11:47:09 AM , Rating: 2
I think everyone can see how in the situation he describes you are at a disadvantage being reliant on electricity alone as a source of power when there is no appreciable source or electricity.

A gas pump isn't the ONLY (albeit the primary) source of gas. In an emergency situation (such as the one he outlines) the common person SHOULD realize you can easily get gas out of a number of things, other cars being a great start.

Just saying, you're prob not gonna do the same with electtic. That's his point...

If you're gonna revile him, at least don't think as narrowly as him.


RE: Why he's just wrong.
By Rukkian on 7/6/2012 1:11:21 PM , Rating: 2
While it is not the most efficient, there are plenty of people who have generators for emergencies, which should charge the ev (albeit slowly) if you need to go out.


RE: Why he's just wrong.
By geddarkstorm on 7/6/2012 1:49:50 PM , Rating: 2
The irony being a generator runs on gas.


RE: Why he's just wrong.
By ironargonaut on 7/8/2012 1:54:43 AM , Rating: 1
How did your buddy get to the airport since there was supposedly no gas and no electricity in this unnamed city?

A generator can run a gas pump. Some gas stations have them. A tanker can fill up the gas station and the generator.

But then again a generator can charge an EV also. Irony is it will have to carry gas back to the generator.


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