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Romanian President Traian Basescu
We built this country on rock and roll ... and piracy

In the software industry, piracy results in the loss of billions of dollars every year. It is estimated that over 35% of all software installations worldwide are pirated (22% in North America). That number is even higher in China and Vietnam where software piracy is estimated at 90% and 92% respectively.

In 2005, piracy cost the software industry $35 billion USD in lost revenue. Microsoft, which bets heavily on its Windows and Office software, is most often the target of pirates. Microsoft senior attorney Bonnie MacNaughton estimates that more than 33% of all Microsoft software is pirated.

This comes as no surprise to Romanian President Traian Basescu. It is estimated that 70% of the software used in Romania is pirated -- and President Basescu is proud of it.

In a recent joint news conference with Microsoft chairman and founder Bill Gates, Basescu had this to say about piracy; "Piracy helped the young generation discover computers. It set off the development of the IT industry in Romania."

He continued, "It helped Romanians improve their creative capacity in the IT industry, which has become famous around the world ... Ten years ago, it was an investment in Romania's friendship with Microsoft and with Bill Gates."

Not surprisingly, Bill Gates had no comment for Basescu's remarks.

Microsoft has taken many steps to protect Windows Vista from pirates. The company has implemented its so-called Software Protection Program and Windows Volume Activation 2.0 to prevent volume license keys from making their way out into the open.

However, it wasn't long after the announcement of Volume Activation 2.0 that pirates found a way to circumvent it. And just days before the worldwide consumer launch of Windows Vista and Office 2007, pirated copies were sitting on store shelves in China for a few bucks a piece.

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I like..
By ZeeStorm on 2/2/2007 2:48:58 PM , Rating: 4
I like it how they talk about how many millions/billions of dollars are lost from piracy. I think if piracy was stopped, analysts would be quite surprised that they aren't making up for those millions/billions, because people would simply do without. Take for example, if someone pirates 4 different kinds of DVD playing software. If they had to pay, do you really think they would buy all 4? I have my Nero and WinDVD that came with my DVD burner, that's all I need. If someone bought the same as I did, then pirated other players because they allowed better functionality, but no overall gain, they wouldn't pay for it. They'd only pirate since it had more functionality and that it is, essentially, free.

In any case, I will continue enjoy my Nero and WinDVD that came with my DVD burner (even if there are newer versions) because they are free and will choose to use those until FREEWARE outbeats them (which I don't see anytime soon). :)

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/2007 3:33:13 PM , Rating: 5
I follow a similar method with gaming. I generally consider it more like renting for free though. These days many developers don't even put out demos, or they lack so much of the full game content you have no clue how full game will play out. (actually found demos are much less buggy than full game. Sometimes full is unplayable and patches are not to be found).

I admit it's a poor justification, but 90% of the time I uninstall the game and delete images in less than an hour, other 10% I go buy the full version if I like it. I'm sure someone will get on their high horse and say stealing is stealing (world isn't black/white no match how much you say it is), but I think it is a much more effective delivery process. How many of you have bought a game by looking at the package, taken it home, and wished you had spent the money on socks instead?

When it comes down to it, if you made a good game, you get my money anyways. If you made an awful game, I was stealing it for an hour until I deleted and tossed the coasters.

Judge me if you will, but I think this is a realistic approach.

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By knowyourenemy on 2/2/2007 4:22:22 PM , Rating: 2
And logical fallacies jump out just as much.

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By knowyourenemy on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By Korvon on 2/2/2007 5:55:30 PM , Rating: 5
Since when is it life and death to have Windows or some game? :P

RE: I like..
By Rockjock51 on 2/2/2007 11:03:58 PM , Rating: 2
He was referring to the poster above him that said no matter what.. there's no justification, I think.

RE: I like..
By knowyourenemy on 2/3/2007 12:09:55 PM , Rating: 2

RE: I like..
By PseudoKnight on 2/2/2007 5:06:40 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, really? I can think of many circumstances in which theft (even REAL theft as software piracy is just copying) is justified. The impact to the economy is minimal if not statistically insignificant in comparison.

It's up to each individual to know where they stand and to be honest with themselves. There's a somewhat obscure line you don't want to cross.

RE: I like..
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/2007 7:35:34 PM , Rating: 2
Stealing is stealing. This so far is the only argument you have given.

By the same token when I ate a small piece of candy (unwrapped) I found on the floor at the grocery store next to a candy bin when I was 6 I was also stealing. Should I have gone to jail, or would you consider this a special case considering my age, and the fact the candy was kinda gross and would have been thrown away anyway?

If you say special case than you are infact saying there may be special cases for all laws considering they shouldn't be infallible. You may carry over that line of reasoning to piracy laws and decide that in very few cases it may be ok after all variables are considered.

If not, then sir, slap me in irons, and I await your decision as my executioner.

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By Neotermer on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By maxzilla on 2/5/2007 11:12:46 AM , Rating: 2
I think we are pulling this piracy thing a bit out of context.
wether the corporate world wants to admit it or not, piracy is an essential factor for their existance. It's a simbiosys of 2 systems. like the oracle said in the can not exist without the other. Because of piracy, a lot of low salary countries got to learn the products, so they in turn can offer cheap labor to the corporate world to produce these very products that will be pirated again, and the cycle begins again.
Did you guys know that a lot of advanced goverments still relies on black money to maintain their economy? yes criminals buy stuff too!!

RE: I like..
By Kilim on 2/3/2007 1:03:47 AM , Rating: 3
What is with some of these people using extreme cases to defend their postions? What does a six year old stealing candy have to do with this? You are believing your own hype!

If you have a situation where stealing the software was justified or "not that bad" than give it. Do not give some tale about a six year old stealing candy to use emotion and to pander to your supporters.

Of course nothing is black and white. But......if a person does take a game which is not his, downloads it, burns it, whatever, he/she did steal it. That is what happened, the seriousness of this offense is up to debate. Do not act like the offense is up to debate.

I just wanted to back up pythias. These arguments would not pass muster in a face to face meeting. But then again, what would I be doing right now if not for the entertaining reading!

RE: I like..
By NullSubroutine on 2/3/2007 9:59:37 AM , Rating: 3
actually both points, as well as yours are really just mute. you cannot steal what does not exist. games and operating systems are merely 1's and 0's that are copied from one source to another. stealing implies ownership, ownership that is transfered by illegal means. it is also implied that the property is no longer available to the owner.

software is always accessible by companies, so technically unless you take that from them (so they can no longer access it at free will) you did not steal it.

in all truth, you also dont own the game when you buy it, so are you stealing it? no, you are not, you are simply in what a lay person calls End User Liscence Agreement. when you dont pay for software you arent stealing, you are merely in contract violation.

RE: I like..
By masher2 on 2/3/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By NullSubroutine on 2/4/2007 8:29:51 AM , Rating: 2
oops yes, moot.

software is not a car, if you own a car, only one person can use/drive it. software can be used by anyone anywhere with the copied code.

the only way your car anology would work (ie anything that is tangible property) would be if you had a magic car that can be created by use of a magic 'word'. when the magical 'word' is spoken a new car is created, magically out of thin air. now you lobby lawmakers to create laws that state you own this 'word' and you can have control who says it, where it can be used, how often it is used, and anythign you can really imagine. you also include law that states noone can 'own' your 'word' you simply, for a nonimal fee, allow them to use it.

sounds rediculous? thats because it is, just like ip law.

RE: I like..
By Tyler 86 on 2/4/2007 9:37:51 AM , Rating: 3
Oh FFS...

"Man, it's not right to pirate."
"Man, it's not wrong to pirate."

It's right and wrong to pirate.
... but software piracy is wrong.

Admission that some piracy in special cases is 'right' has nothing to do with software piracy.

The fact that sofware piracy is "so prevalent," and is logically defended by "pirates," whom also defeat their own efforts at piracy "at their discretion," reflects the strong software market's sadistic yet foolish operating model.

Companies still operating on this model exist because it preys on the unaware, the unprepared, the uneducated - and that is a sizable market.

The current marketing model was designed for launching a product with a small consumer base, limited exchangability, a completely volatile execution environment, and 'prehistoric' infrastructure.

The market has changed since 1986, the operating model needs to change too.
Since software is a completely redistributable, recyclable, modifiable, executing in a safe* environment, and intangible product, now - as opposed to games loaded into from floppy disks directly to a volatile memory environment.

Instead of moving ahead, they are trying to turn back the clock. Current copy protections volitilize the environment as much as possible (some times destroying the game in the process), and attempt to turn the non-volatile hard-drive into a mere buffer (what used to be memory) instead of the non-volatile storage medium just as the CD, that it is. It's f***ing brilliant, if it wasn't f***ing awful.

MMORPGs reflect the newer operation models. Piracy with MMORPGs is MINIMAL.
Their operating model is completely different from other games. They have "wisened up."

*Safe meaning volatile storage (memory) is backed by non-volatile storage (page/swap file on hard drive).

RE: I like..
By Tyler 86 on 2/4/2007 10:56:21 AM , Rating: 2
Woops, volatilize, not volitilize...

Could someone kindly post some Romanian curse words for our industry taunting pleasure?

RE: I like..
By bpurkapi on 2/3/2007 4:53:52 AM , Rating: 4
Since we are talking about the virtual realm, which software belongs to, the analogy of murder makes little sense. There are many problems when trying to apply laws that were made for the "real" world to the virtual world. I honestly hope that one day there is a code of law that specifically pertains to the virtual world. There is way to much wiggle room currently, the laws that define theft and copyright were mostly pertaining to cases in which an individual took something that was physically tangible, like an apple. Yet today we talk about people stealing software. Software is not an apple, we are not comparing "apples to apples." Software in the real world is a bunch of zeros, ones, scripts, an executable, dll's, etc. The law acts like you grabbed a copy off the shelf but you didn't, technically speaking you "stole" a clone. And since the clone didn't originally come from you, it was shared with you, are you really stealing? The individual who shares the software is the one who is breaking the license agreement, you on the other hand should not be responsible as you didn't break any laws, the original poster did. The original person to share a program that in a license agreement specifically says the user agrees not to share with others is breaking the law, once you receive the software from this individual it is already compromised, and you therefore are not legally responsible, and are not stealing. As a counter point to what I just said, remember that bittorrent makes it so that even the secondary user is now sharing and thus breaking the agreement.

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/3/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By emboss on 2/3/2007 9:23:20 PM , Rating: 3
The *law* doesn't treat it like stealing. It treats it like copyright infringement.

RE: I like..
By anonymo on 2/5/2007 7:59:47 AM , Rating: 2
If you had bothered to read the article, you would have read where Basescu says
"Piracy helped the young generation discover computers. It set off the development of the IT industry in Romania."
which for many Bosnians is quite close to a life or death situation.

MS has to realize that computers are the way of the future and more and more these days are our jobs heavily dependent on them. If you own a monopoly on an operating system, then effectively shut out the poor's access to it by overpricing it, you are effectively killing them off. Personally I think it's all part of Darwinism, however that does not detract from it being a life or death situation for the people involved

RE: I like..
By Brassbullet on 2/7/2007 4:50:36 PM , Rating: 2
What you think are grey shadows are really just a bunch of very tiny black and white dots.

I do not disagree with you that any action can be justified, but if you shall be justified in commiting the crime, so shall you be justified in receiving its punishment.

RE: I like..
By smitty3268 on 2/2/2007 5:45:53 PM , Rating: 3
As much as the entertainment industry would like to convince everyone otherwise, there is a difference between theft of physical property and theft of intellectual property.

As far as there never being any justification for theft: never say never. If someone was drowning, would you choose not to steal a life preserver to throw to them?

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By smitty3268 on 2/2/2007 6:37:27 PM , Rating: 2
You never said anything about "unless it is a dire necessity" before.

Anyway, there are other analogies where it isn't quite so clear cut - what about Robin Hood? Was he a hero or do you wish the sheriff had caught that thieving rouge?

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By smitty3268 on 2/2/2007 7:23:10 PM , Rating: 2

Actually I never said anything about stealing an apple. That was another poster.

My point is, you said: "Your analogy is false because it is a necessity"

Therefore, I replied: "But it isn't false, because you originally said it was never ok, not never ok unless it is a necessity"

RE: I like..
By knowyourenemy on 2/3/2007 12:21:53 PM , Rating: 2

Actually I never said anything about stealing an apple. That was another poster."

Ah, this is getting funny.

RE: I like..
By smitty3268 on 2/2/2007 5:49:27 PM , Rating: 4
If someone steals a million dollars worth of equipment from a store, and then 1 hour later either returns all the equipment or drops off a suitcase full of cash, is that really as bad as someone who just steals the stuff and never comes back?

What the original poster describes isn't even as bad as this scenario, since the "store" hasn't lost any value at all for the hour he is trying out the game.

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By smitty3268 on 2/2/2007 6:40:53 PM , Rating: 3
I wouldn't like that. However, I'd like it even less if you never gave it back. And I probably wouldn't mind at all if you clicked a button which magically made a copy of my car and drove off in it. My point was that there are different kinds of theft and that not everything is strictly black and white. There are certain shades called gray in between.

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By smitty3268 on 2/2/2007 7:06:09 PM , Rating: 3
The car analogy was yours. So this new one is an object that holds sentimental (but not real) value. Yes, a theft has occurred. I still maintain that if it is returned almost immediately that it is not nearly as significant a theft as if it was stolen and never returned.

All of these analogies are flawed, however. IP is different than physical property, because it is an infinitely and instantly renewable resource that is being stolen. The sole reason this stuff is given value (and thus considered being stolen) is to encourage people/companies to create new IP.

RE: I like..
By smitty3268 on 2/2/2007 7:20:43 PM , Rating: 2
Going back a car analogy - would you really buy a new car without taking it for a test drive first? In this case, the dealer is saying "No, you can't take a test drive, either buy it or don't." So yes it is stealing, but is taking it for a test drive really that morally reprehensible (considering that no "actual" value is lost by the dealer and it is just a quick test drive you're taking to decide whether it is worth the cost or not)

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By smitty3268 on 2/2/2007 7:57:56 PM , Rating: 2
I never claimed it wasn't stealing - it clearly is as defined by the laws of the United States. I'm just saying it's not exactly the worst thing in the world someone could do... In fact I'd go so far as to say there are lots of legal things you can do that are much worse than this.

RE: I like..
By Tsuwamono on 2/4/2007 6:23:48 PM , Rating: 3
Pythias.. you truely are an idiot. Face it. you are obviously intellectually out matched here. You contradict yourself with almost every post you make.

BTW i will gladly say i downloaded Halo PC off of The Pirate bay.. but after trying it for 20 minutes i decided to drive to the store to buy it.

I also downloaded a CD by my favourite artist (As I Lay Dying) to see if i liked it. After listening to every song once i went and bought the CD. If i didnt like all the songs and i only liked the Single i would buy the Single.

Just because someone downloads something doesnt mean they are stealing it. I basicly borrowed it from a friend and then once i decided if i liked it i went and bought it.

Your Arguements imply that if you were at a Party you would gouge out your ear drums so you couldnt hear any of the music being played on his stereo so that you wouldnt be "Stealing"

Its like listening to a CD in someone elses car, they are letting you listen to it without you having to buy the CD. You then ask, who is this? they say well its "So and So" and your like wow, i think ill buy their CD. Its the same thing as what i do except my friend happens to be the internet.

Come arrest me if its wrong to listen to music in someone else's car or listen to a song in a car beside me.

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By Rockjock51 on 2/2/2007 11:16:50 PM , Rating: 2
Gonna have to go ahead and chime in here. Pretty sure we all agree that it is stealing to download games. We should all also agree that if you end up buying the game as a result.. you haven't really stolen anything. The million dollar analogy was grossly exaggerated and in a more realistic analogy, if you stole a 60 dollar pair of shoes and later brought them back in the exact same condition (at most an hour) or returned to pay for them... nothing is going to happen to you. (I work at a Nike store this actually happens more than you think.) Most people think of it as an incentive to make a game worth buying instead of trying to cheat people into buying the game by not releasing a demo and using your name to sell the product.

Justified? Depends on how you look at it. You're going to say no, that much is clear. The fact is though, make a good game and people will buy it. Make a crappy game and people will not.

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/3/07, Rating: 0
RE: I like..
By Rockjock51 on 2/3/2007 6:56:48 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed... but over something as petty as 60 dollars what percentage of those thousands of places would continue to press charges if the goods were returned or paid for?

RE: I like..
By Xavian on 2/3/2007 12:27:02 AM , Rating: 4
Hmm, i have this time and time again. Stealing an item (whereby the ownership of the item illegally transfers to you) is not the same as copying an item.

Piracy == Copyright Infringement
Piracy != Theft/Stealing

A good analogy would be this, theft (to use your own analogy) is stealing a car, you have taken an item which you do not own, the original owner of the car, no longer has the item, thus the ownership has transferred illegally from the original owner, to person who committed the theft.

Piracy is buying a car, then copying it design and then selling (or in the case of the music and software industries, giving) the copied product to other people.

The important distinction is this, when you steal a car, the original owner no longer has the car, the owner has lost it and thus there is a tangible loss. When you perform piracy you buy a car, copy the design and make a car that is cheaper (or free) and sell it to people who would have never brought the original car (because it was too expensive), the car company has still got the car designs, they haven't lost a car, because the car was copied and not stolen.

So in conclusion:

A person, takes a car from its legal owner, the legal owner no longer has the car, the legal owner has suffered a tangible loss and the ownership of the car has transferred illegally to the person who took the car.

A person buys a car from a dealership, copies the design and then makes cars with the same design and sells them at a cheaper price (or for free), this allows those who cannot afford the original car from the dealership, can at-least buy or take (if given freely) a copied design. These people would not have brought the original car anyways, so there is no perceived loss of profit.

What is going wrong, is the MPAA/RIAA (and whatever anti-piracy software conglomerate) is thinking that everyone that downloaded a free song over the internet, would have paid for it and thus calculate that into their perceived loss of profits. The real truth is, that person would not have brought the song if there was no way to get it freely or cheaply.

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/3/2007 7:58:29 AM , Rating: 2
EXCEPT that the car in the analogy represents the WORK THAT WENT INTO CREATING THE CAR. You cant touch or hold electricity, but you can steal it. You cant touch or hold a night's stay in a hotel, but you can still skip out without paying.

RE: I like..
By masher2 on 2/3/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By emboss on 2/3/2007 9:37:48 PM , Rating: 2
> > "Stealing an not the same as copying an item."
> "Except that our legal system, as well as basic common sense, say otherwise."

Say what??? The law (for most countries that actually have laws that deal with copyright) considers the two completely seperate.

The way things are going in the US, you'd probably get done over more for copying a piece of software off a friend than actually going into a store and nicking it.

RE: I like..
By Aikouka on 2/2/2007 3:46:41 PM , Rating: 2
I'll admit that I've done that before. It's not like I cannot afford to buy the game or refuse to buy it, it's that I'd rather try before I buy. This is especially true with PC games as you can't go to Blockbuster and rent them, so your only choice is a demo or piracy. It seems a decent amount of games are coming without a demo these days (Rainbow Six Vegas anyone? I think they avoided the demo on this horrid port to avoid deterring purchasers :P). Some games just release the demo so late it's not even funny (that one RPG game did it.. I forget the name now it's been so long).

No one's really trying to say it's right, but it's good to understand that some do it with the concept of stealing while others just want a fair medium to judge the game before they shell out their hard-earned money.

RE: I like..
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/2007 5:33:15 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. Not saying it's right, but it's certainly a lot better than just pirating every game under sun and never spending a buck.

RE: I like..
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/2007 7:54:19 PM , Rating: 2
I also think all gaming software should have a "lan party" clause in their licenses. When it comes down to it a dozen guys aren't going to all own the same games so we have also pirated them for just these parties (~8 hours at a crack).

I have to say I think the gaming companies likely benefited. Often after playing a game a guy will say "this game is sweet, I'm gonna pick it up on way home". The company makes a sale they wouldn't have otherwise.

Doesn't make it right, but I'm not going to go spend $1K to buy everyone a copies of games when they might not show up to next lan party.

RE: I like..
By themadmilkman on 2/3/2007 3:10:57 PM , Rating: 2
Bungie used to do just that, to a limited extent. Every copy of the Marathon games included one (or two? can't remember) serial numbers that would limit the game to the multiplayer maps. Worked great.

RE: I like..
By The Boston Dangler on 2/2/2007 8:33:16 PM , Rating: 2
i think your post would be rated 100 if the scale went that high.

from someone that has all to kind to the studios:
1. these businesses are completely dependant on fleecing artists and customers. buy a cd or movie for full price, then wait a month to see a new and improved version they expect to sell you. How many version of The Fifth Element were released? as one of the older tricks, The Killers' Hot Fuss was released in the US with 2 songs removed from the original UK copy. The same 2 songs were later included in the Hot Fuss Special Edition. just look at the complete discographies of The Beatles and Rolling Stones.

2. "hey mr. store manager, that movie you sold me was terrible. i want my money back." "no."

3. would i buy a painting without seeing it first?

4. if you're super lucky, you can buy it a dozen times. one for the car, one for the gym, one for the kitchen et cetera.

RE: I like..
By rushfan2006 on 2/7/2007 10:05:38 AM , Rating: 2
Well I'm not shocked or amazed anymore about people justifying stealing, and piracy is stealing - let's push all the silly analogies and excuses aside -- it is stealing.

And while I actually do understand where the previous poster is coming from in regards to basically pirating a game for an hour and then deleting it because a lot of games just suck today. He is still stealing, and no the world isn't black and white -- but this isn't a complex issue. This issues IS black and white.

I believe it comes down to a person's core values - their own set of ethics and moral compass. Which in turn has to do with how they were raised or what experiences they have had in life that swayed them one way or the other.

I'm not going to say in my 20 plus years of gaming I've NEVER did what the above poster explained that he does, that would be lying. However, I was immature and I was a teen back then....I never really thought about it much until I got older. So I no longer do that stuff anymore.

That all said....I think I'd appreciate people more for just being honest. If you pirate, I disagree with you and its stealing. Period. End of story. There is no excuse, all. Ever. BUT at least just admit that fact and save your excuses and the melodrama of justifying yourself.

That's about it.

RE: I like..
By crimson117 on 2/2/2007 4:54:18 PM , Rating: 2
When the time comes that you can create millions of exact copies of jackets, shoes, or loaves of bread for free, then you may start likening unauthorized duplication of software to physical theft and stealing.

Until then, get your facts straight.

RE: I like..
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: I like..
By Rockjock51 on 2/2/2007 11:20:05 PM , Rating: 2
Neither was the work in creating the bread.

RE: I like..
By Panurge on 2/2/2007 5:34:00 PM , Rating: 2
Much of that post wasn't an attempt to justify piracy, however.

The main point of the post was to point out that the numbers are inflated. If a person pirates a copy of a game, and never had the intention to pay for it (for whatever reason), the money isn't technically lost to the company that made the game.

Regardless of whether this action is right or wrong, the company is only losing money if the person would have purchaed the product if there was no means to get it for free.

Because of this, the numbers quoted are very high, much higher than the amount that would be gained if piracy were able to be removed 100% from the world.

RE: I like..
By Tsuwamono on 2/4/2007 6:09:25 PM , Rating: 2
Your a retard..

RE: I like..
By jmunjr on 2/2/2007 4:06:52 PM , Rating: 2
He's right. Regardless of whether or not we are thieves, there is no way the numbers are close to accurate because if pirating were impossible the sales figures wouldn't even be 1/4th of the piracy figures...imo.

RE: I like..
By MarkHark on 2/3/2007 9:46:31 AM , Rating: 2
If I was to make an estimate, I´d have to say closer to 1/10th, at least for games, songs and other non-essential stuff.

If we talk about Windows and MSOffice, however, I think your numbers are pretty close.

Many who now use pirated versions of these softwares would rather pay for them (if they absolutely had to) than face the move to a freeware alternative, such as Linux/OpenOffice. However, these same people would be the ones most likely to refuse upgrading their software every couple years, and I guess they would rather stick to their old versions for a very long time, which in turn would markedly reduce the amount of revenue generated. So, if we think long-term, it might be that my estimate is still closer than yours.

RE: I like..
By JustYoureAverageGuy on 2/3/2007 10:32:30 AM , Rating: 2
I dont know about that ( people not wantic to switch to Linux/OpenOffice ). A lot of firms would rather send they're employees to a training course and make sure that the people working for them can handle most problems on they're own, then spend a ton of money on Licenses and technical support. The Webhosting firm i work at is Linux Only, and we have been arround for a long time. The only CD we have that actualy has Windows written on it, is used as a coffe cup holder. The basic ideea behind this is "Why pay for a product inferior to what you have ( THIS IS A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE AND IN OUR CASE IT APPLIES )when you can use a far better one for free". Since i have started using Linux, i have found that many people prefer to "Stay honest" by deploying a free OS then pirate an expensive one. The only people i see using windows and being happy with it ( considering all de viruses, mallware, spyware, and any other kind of *ware there is out there ) are those who do not know of the existence of other OS's OR those who have used Windows so much...that they try to see "Windows" in any OS(something about teaching old dogs new tricks)

RE: I like..
By somerset on 2/8/2007 12:00:37 PM , Rating: 2
very true

this has been going on for a while
By hellokeith on 2/2/2007 2:42:48 PM , Rating: 5
The sad fact of the matter is that people generally do not place much value to things that they cannot see or hold in their hand. A friend of mine does all kind of house work - electrical, plumbing, drywall, tiling, etc - and he's been stiffed for $1000 several times because the majority of his bill was labor time. Crooked people just don't think someone else' time is worth anything. Hence the problem with software and digital music/video. Since you can't hold digital information in your hand, it obviously isn't worth anything regardless of how much time, effort, and creativity others may have put into developing it.

This is exactly why I stopped repairing computers.. people don't understand why they should pay more than $25, even if I spent 4-6 hours on it, since they can't see what has changed/fixed.

Sadly, a whole generation is growing up with the entitlement mentality, and they are going to have a very hard time when getting out into the working world where time = money.

RE: this has been going on for a while
By lucyfek on 2/2/2007 3:05:41 PM , Rating: 4
the issue here is that if you earn few bucks a month and by some miracle you get a pc, you look have to acquire the rest for free or else you're left with pile of junk. it's always the same unless you earn real money to buy the real pc (not just put together the cheapest possible parts) with OS preinstalled for you (and you have no choice to save on the "free" stuff). it's the software companies lack of flexibility to differentiate price in relation to real incomes of consumers in different countries that leads to mass piracy (tell a romanian to pay 100$ for xp home if he/she won't make this much in a month). i's true that we all tend to see the value of real (phisical) things but disregard the value of ip that you can copy (especially if it is made "priceless" for our incomes).
the real bad thing is that once you get used to free it's hard to start paying when you can afford to buy (if there is a way to make a "free" copy (trust me on this one;)). there is a billion chineese and all the software they use (ok 99.9%) is illegal, but ms won't sell windows for 1$ (per regular/home user) just to start the process and get them used to using (;) legal stuff (and jack up pricess in the future;) - correct if i'm wrong, but i'd rather earn 1bln$ than write off 100bln$ as the cost of piracy (and cry aloud).

RE: this has been going on for a while
By add on 2/2/2007 3:37:10 PM , Rating: 2
true! Vista costs as much as a whole computer... what the hell?

and yes, There are romanians who work a whole month for $100. I think windows for home use should be cheap. If you use their OS to make money, ok, pay up, if not, pay less.

RE: this has been going on for a while
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: this has been going on for a while
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/2007 5:43:14 PM , Rating: 2
Three cheers for compasion!

RE: this has been going on for a while
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/2007 5:49:47 PM , Rating: 3
Wonder how many Romanian kids pirated some software, learned about computers, got a good job, and today pay for their software? Likely more than just a few. Let's damn them to hell anyway for stealing to try and improve their quality of life.

RE: this has been going on for a while
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: this has been going on for a while
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/2007 6:16:31 PM , Rating: 2
Not a very good argument, considering my example pulls someone's life out of the gutter, and you're just hinting the majority getting something with pretty new blinky lights.

True most pirates do what they do out of pure greed, and I'm not trying to protect them. Not all pirates are like that, you don't seem to have the ability to differentiate this.

RE: this has been going on for a while
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: this has been going on for a while
By CascadingDarkness on 2/2/2007 6:46:35 PM , Rating: 2
Your analogy isn't quite right though. Considering stealing a car causes people to be hurt directly, where as piracy hurts a company indirectly (loss of profits and such..). While you do make a good point you purposefully use something with a far bigger impact to make it.

I don't remember any programmers not getting to work because someone used their program license without paying.

Again, I agree, overall piracy is bad. I am just trying to point out it isn't all as bad as stealing cars.

RE: this has been going on for a while
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: this has been going on for a while
By ATC on 2/2/2007 9:44:14 PM , Rating: 3
I've read this thread going back and forth and you don't seem to realise that you're attacking this topic from one dimension. It's repetitive and shows a serious issue with narrow mindedness.

Give that high horse of yours a break, it's tired.

By ATC on 2/2/2007 9:46:03 PM , Rating: 2
My post was to Pythias. Butter fingers I have!

By add on 2/3/2007 7:10:21 AM , Rating: 2
man... not my case (i earn $150 :D )

The fact is the life standard in Romania is LOW. Romanians can't afford software licenses. (this is not a way to say "ok, go ahead, steal)

A man in Finland earns about 4000 euros and pays the same amount for a windows license as a romanian who earns 100. That's why in Finland piracy is low.

By atticu5 on 2/3/2007 7:32:33 PM , Rating: 2
kinda harsh if you ask me, some pple just dont have the opportunity to get a high paying job. besides, someone has to do all the dirty work that i, and im sure you as well, don't want to do

By zubix on 2/9/2007 3:10:31 AM , Rating: 2
It seems that for some people it's hard to understand the realities from another country. So far everybody tried to make the others understand how it is to live in a country where the minimum guaranteed wage is about $100-$150. To turn the analogy the other way please answer me how many people from developed countries would buy an OS if the price tag would be $5000. I'm sure all the law abiding citizens would rush to make a bank loan to buy the operating system. Of course you can't do anything with that (except maybe record yourself and listen back). So make another loan to get the $5000 required to put office on that computer. Now it's much better, except if you want to be a programmer and want to learn. No problem, just shell out $20000 or so to buy the tools. I'm sure you will make every effort possible to have only licenced software on your computer, you and your family will fast a week or so every month to save the money to buy software. You will use the same clothes and shoes several years because you need to save the money for your software. The children are growing? No problem, you can always borrow some clothes from the friend who has older children. You will do everything to ensure you have licenced software on your computer.

Of course there is Linux, and I sure that if anti-piracy laws would be enforced with maximum efficiency then the people will start to use it, even if it's not as comfortable as MS OSes. This will give Linux a much larger momentum and I'm sure MS doesn't want this. Just imagine how many programmers on MS technologies emerge due to pirating. This helps to keep the monopoly. Now just imagine what a massive switch to Linux in all developing countries (Eastern Europe, Asia) would mean.

But, thankfully, you can *always* get a better job ;)

RE: this has been going on for a while
By Pythias on 2/2/2007 3:51:04 PM , Rating: 2
Then dont buy microsoft. Use linux. Its free. Whats that? You like microsoft more? THe pay for it and stop trying to justify thievery. The world doesn't OWE you anything.

RE: this has been going on for a while
By lucyfek on 2/2/2007 5:47:10 PM , Rating: 2
don't get me wrong - i'm not saying than ms (or anyone else) owes romanians, chineese, etc... .all i'm saying is that through being realistic and flexible about pricing, the companies could avoid creating the "free stuff" mentality they complain about.
linux vs windows is another story (not all linux is free), but i guess that once the level of pain involved in forcing illegal copy of windows to work will exceed the the level of pain/learning curve in getting used to linux (and it's really close to this point), ms will be forced to lower its prices to keep the market share.

RE: this has been going on for a while
By Pythias on 2/2/2007 6:13:22 PM , Rating: 2
What market share? How does theft produce market share? Piracy DEPLETES market share. It doesn't at to it.

By lucyfek on 2/4/2007 3:15:48 PM , Rating: 2
the market sharet share that ms is jealous about that it will do whatever it takes to get rid off any viable competitor (surely it rather did it for money, but when there's no choice it would almost given away the product - just look what happens when a large western (or "emerging market") institution considers going open source to save a $).
i repeat what i stated before - i'd rather sell a billion copies of windows to chinease for a $ each (not to be used in other markets of course) than claim (unrealistically) that i've lost 100+ billions $ beacuse of piracy. once the average pay in a market rises, i'd ask for more, and nobody complains, nobody feels cheated.
but i expect they live illusion, hope for miracle and as a result they will lose 1 billion $ (yes 1 and not 100) they could ask for today (if they were somewhat more realistic).
long life the piracy (with the help of the greedy, short-sighted software complanies)

By Gatt on 2/2/2007 7:42:12 PM , Rating: 2
Selling a number of $100 pieces of software for $1 hurts more than it helps. Part of the cost of that software is the support groups, selling it for $1 means that they lost not only the entire portion of the cost to develop that country X would've supported, but they also lost the cost of translating, and they'll lose even more on support.

$1 software, just like $1 dollar movies, doesn't solve the problem. It doesn't help. Companies lose alot more trying to do things that way.

And I strongly agree with the guy above, I fell badly for the early 20-somethings and younger. They're entrance into the real working world is going to be absolutely brutal. They've had their hands held through school, feel entitled to whatever they want regardless of what is right, and when they hit real life, they're going to cave in frighteningly large numbers. Too many schools are afraid to teach, too many parents can't be bothered teaching or parenting, and few kids have any idea what life is really like.

Even in my college classes I look around and see them being unable to cope. Got a bad grade on the first exam? Withdraw instead of trying! You get another chance without risking penalty! Proffessor spoke to you in a way you don't like? Withdraw instead of learning to cope with people you don't like!

Going to be alot of people unable to handle the real working world running around shouting "But, But, But, I have a *right* to do this because I believe I do!"

Would You Want Someone To Steal From You?
By PWNettle on 2/2/2007 9:52:39 PM , Rating: 2
Basic concept. Do unto others...

Would you want someone to steal from you? Most likely not. So how can it possibly be ok to steal anything?

Intellectual property is just like any other property, and there is no legimate reason for stealing it.

One factor I rarely or never see mentioned in this debate is that one reason that software piracy is somewhat accepted is because there is little chance of getting pursued, caught, and punished. There's very little enforcment - you pretty much have to be a big corporation/entity in a civilized country that respects copyrights for anything to happen.

This is why so many of you think it's ok to steal software, movies, etc. It's easy to do and almost no risk of getting caught and/or punished.

Most software/music/movie thieves probably pay their bills, pay their mortgage, pay for their groceries and food, pay for their new cars, etc (unless you live in your mom's basement and coast). You also probably don't regularly rob, murder, steal cars, steal purses, and break other laws that society takes more seriously and enforces.

Our governments and law enforcement agencies really don't have the time or money to chase small time software pirating thugs when there are more serious crimes that take priority. We're too busy financing NASA to research pointless crap and funding wars in countries that hate us. But anyways...

The fact that you can get away with breaking a rule or law doesn't make breaking that rule or law OK.

If "home-based pirates" like DVD thieves and game thieves were regularly caught and saw jail time there'd be a lot less stealing going on. Bet on it.

If the US and its allies dropped trade embargos on Romania for failing to respect copyrights, perhaps Romania would think twice about embracing piracy. Historically the US has taken a lot of radical steps to protect American business interests. It's not impossible to imagine something like this happening.

Who knows, maybe software/music/movie thieves get some kind of thrill out of stealing and getting away with it. A lot of wackos out there get off on doing things that they're not supposed to. What better way to get a cheap/geek thrill than to steal something when there's pretty much zero chance of getting caught. Uber!

The only way I can see anyone being in favor of piracy is if they indulge, feel guilty about it, and are looking for any rationalization for it, no matter how ridiculous it might be.

Kinda like this Romanian.

Do I think software is overpriced? Not really, except maybe Vista, which is insanely priced for what you get compared to what you already have. So...uh...don't buy it. Looks neato to me but I'm not paying 2-400 to glitz up my desktop - I run apps on my computer and don't just dink with my desktop.

You probably wouldn't like it if your boss just up and decided not to pay you this pay period. Sorry chump, someone stole our profits - you go without this week!

The huge corporations with multiple revenue streams might not get crushed by piracy, but you are denying somebody income when you pirate, and it could very well ruin a company that soley depends on selling software.

You probably like getting paid for your work don't you? You might do some volunteer time here and there outside of working for a living, but when you DO work, you want to get paid right? It'd be pretty uncool of someone to deny you your just wages, wouldn't it?

Do I think movies are overpriced? Yup. I don't buy them. I have no clue why anybody feels the need to own movies they've already seen. How many times can one watch the crap that passes for movies...surely not enough times to warrant buying them. First you get to pay way too much to sit in a smelly theater to see a movie when it's released, then the movie industry gouges you for even more to own your own company of something you've probably already paid to see. Screw that! Still doesn't make it OK to steal the movies - because you don't have to buy into this idiocy.

Software is different. You are buying it to use it, and chances are you'll use it a lot, and you didn't go to the theater and already pay to use it. The whole idea of "I just want to demo it because there is no demo" is ridiculous.

Music is similar - and reasonably priced. Sure, corporations make tons on selling $.25 pieces of plastic for $15 bucks but you're also screwing over the artists that made the music and all the people involved in producing the music when you steal it. And it's still theft - no justification for it.

RE: Would You Want Someone To Steal From You?
By Dustin25 on 2/2/2007 11:33:00 PM , Rating: 2
If world governments decided to pursue and jail everyone who pirates and downloads, well over 60% of earth's population would be incarcerated and nothing but 70+ year-olds left. 60% is probably a very conservative estimate. I recently started watching Battlestar Galactica. Someone recommended I watch it so I decided to give it a try. I didn't want to start watching half way through the third season and I didn't want to pay $50 for a show I might hate. So I went to my local vid stores and none had any of the series to rent. So I downloaded the torrents of the first season and found I really liked the show. Because I was able to do this the shows creators gained a fan and I went out and bought the dvds. So was this an instance of piracy, or of people doing free advertising for the Sci-fi channel?

RE: Would You Want Someone To Steal From You?
By Bav on 2/3/2007 2:46:14 AM , Rating: 2
Mr or mrs you know where romania is placed on the worldwide map?Do you know what are the living standards in Romania?Do you what is out standard pay per month?If not shut the f..k up...Do not speak so wise about a country that you don't know where it is on the map...we had enough of you smart asses saying from your native country (US or what) that in Romania the milk and honey are everywhere and we are rich beyond any limits..what you see on tv is not true all the time...piracy is not a hobby for some people in this a way of living because they are poor and the software prices are way over the hill for them..i am against piracy and i despise the people that are doing such a thing, but when i see what misery and poverty is in Romania, i turn my head and look the other way because nobody is doing that for doing that so they can have something to eat for that day..if you don't know anything about that country just shut up and don't say anything..

RE: Would You Want Someone To Steal From You?
By Pythias on 2/3/2007 7:49:37 AM , Rating: 2
I dont care how much money you make little, there are legal ways of creating income. To assert that pirating software is the only way to survive is asinine, to put it kindly.

If you need software for educational purposes, might I suggest you try one of the hundreds of FREE linux distributions ? If in fact NEED is what all this is about, which I highly doubt.

By FuckOffYouRichPriks on 2/3/2007 10:13:25 AM , Rating: 1
of course u don;t care when u're parents earn 3000+$ per month. that's over 6000 $ in your home each month. well in Romania, an avarage person earns 150$. he won't pay his whole salary to buy a damn windows.
the kids in USA get more money from uncle sam than a working man get for 8h a day hard work. so document ureself before u judge anyone.
not sure when Basescu made that comment, but for the idiot that said ppl pirate windos so they can play pirated games, there are a lot of free games that work only in windows and a game in romania costs 15-20$. so ppl save money a few month to buy games (well, kids mostly).
and a question for that guy that said Romania is not all milk and honey: where the hell have u hear/saw that? i haven't hear/saw USA or any other big country saying anything good about Romania

By peldor on 2/12/2007 1:30:08 PM , Rating: 2
I'm just curious: Where do you steal your hardware from?

RE: Would You Want Someone To Steal From You?
By AntiBasescu on 2/3/2007 5:02:18 PM , Rating: 2
I am a Romanian, a programmer. I will pay 200$ for WinXP, the US/Romania price, if the US company I am working for, here in Romania, will pay me the salary it is paying for the same position in the US. Fair enough, don’t you think? I know what you are thinking: “we wouldn’t come to Romania in the first place if it wasn’t the cheap labor price”. Think again! Do you have enough programmers?

I apologize for my English but I guess your Romanian is worst.

RE: Would You Want Someone To Steal From You?
By Tyler 86 on 2/12/2007 6:10:21 PM , Rating: 2
* Personally, I think we have enough programmers...
* but I don't think you should pay 200$ for WinXP, either.
* Truth is, labor is cheaper outside of the US.
* You have good english - you almost have to have good
* english to be a programmer...
#include <vector>
#include <Labor.h>
#include <Country.h>

class origin;
class labor;
class Country; // Country : origin
class Programmer; // Programmer : labor, defined below
class CountryWithProgrammers : public Country {
   virtual double GetMinimumWage();
       { return this->GetMinimumWage(LABORTYPE_PROGRAMMER); }
   vector<Programmer> Programmers;

class Programmer : public Labor {
   double Salary;
   double Quality;
   double m_QualityActual;
   Programmer(double SalBase, double Exp, double Edu,
            school * Sch, reference * RefList,
            CountryWithProgrammers * Loc) {
       Salary = SalBase;
       m_QualityActual = ((Edu * Sch->Quality)) + Exp;
       // It's a hard knock life.
       Quality = Edu + RefList->Total();
       Loc->Programmers->push_back( this );

// TODO: prototyped, unused, undefined
extern Programmer * FindProgrammerToHire(
                       CountryWithProgrammers * Location,
                       reference * Ref );

extern Programmer * FindProgrammerToHireBySalary(
                       CountryWithProgrammers * Location,
                       double * WillingToPay ) {

   if ( Location->GetMinimumWage() > WillingToPay )
       return NULL;
   // Pick through the new guys first...
   for ( vector<Programmer>::const_reverse_iterator i = Location->Programmers.rbegin();
        i != i.end() && !i->Hired && i->Salary <= WillingToPay; i++)
           return &*i;
   // Oooh, terribly complicated, we can't spare much more overhead on such a process.
} // If you got NULL, try another country.

By Tyler 86 on 2/12/2007 6:45:49 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and Sch->Quality is typicly between 3 and 0.1, for reference...

By Tyler 86 on 2/12/2007 6:50:00 PM , Rating: 2
Minor revision; FindProgrammerToHireBySalary
add return NULL; before ending bracket -- yeah it's possible to find no one working for your desired salary over the minimum salary... That would be almost entirely Americans, yeah.

Piracy is wrong but...
By theprodigalrebel on 2/3/2007 2:35:00 AM , Rating: 2
Try and understand this. How many teenagers (particularly those in developing nations) interested in Fine Arts can afford to go out and buy a retail copy of Photoshop, 3D Studio Max or supplement their engineering classes with AutoCAD (at full price)?

In my country, the starting pay for a software engineer (working in a Top 20 company) is about $500 per month. A Tech Support Rep/High-School Teacher makes about $250 a month. $500 a month is just enough money to pay rent & utilities, get married, pay installments on a cheap gas-efficient motorcycle etc. out here. Someone with equal skills/education would probably start out at $4000 a month in the US.

Yet, software is priced EXACTLY the same here as it is in the US. So now you know why piracy is so strong in developing nations? Software makers seem interested in making 'no money' as opposed to 'some money'.

RE: Piracy is wrong but...
By Chrisgar192 on 2/3/2007 1:01:30 PM , Rating: 2
I am a student here in the U.S. and without illegally downloading the software i have used, i would have not gain the level of success and knowledge i would have gotten.

For instance, i learned autodesk inventor two years ago. I use this program to help my robotics team to design our robot each year. If i didn't download this software and continued to self tutor myself, i would have not gained the knoweldge i would have gotten now.

i plan on getting a certification and having my school sponsor me to pay for the test.

If i didn;t download the software what woudl have happened? well i would have not been the head of the design division in my team. I would have not gotten experience in autocad, photoshop and architectural desktop. and so much more.

Once i become an engineer, will i pay for these software? Yes i will. However since niether my parents nor I can afford the cost these companies are not losing profit.

and what if privacy stopped completly? well the mp3 player industry and cd/dvd manufacturers will get hurt. CdR sales sky rocketed after napster was introduced. and the harddrive industry will slow down. All these massive harddrives was due to the amount of media and stuff avaible to download.

RE: Piracy is wrong but...
By borowki on 2/3/2007 2:50:16 PM , Rating: 2
And what keeps poor countries poor? Weak rule of law and corruption are big factors. There is a clear correlation between a country's piracy rate and its position in Transparent International's corruption ranking. People in clean (and rich) countries don't steal software. People in corrupted (and poor) countries do.

Piracy carries a large societal cost because it give an advantage to those who are dishonest. If a kid cheats the system to become an engineer, what makes you think he wouldn't cheat as an engineer when faced with a difficult problem?

"We can't afford to delay this project. Why, we have no choice but to fudge the numbers."

RE: Piracy is wrong but...
By Chrisgar192 on 2/3/2007 4:19:10 PM , Rating: 2
"People in clean (and rich) countries don't steal software. People in corrupted (and poor) countries do.

pure BS

singapore ranks 25th on the Human Development Index which measures standards of living, and second in the Index of Economic Freedom.

Singapore is the world's fourth largest foreign exchangetrading centre after London, New York City and Tokyo

yet 43 percent of software there is pirated

With a GDP growth rate of 9.2%, the Indian economy is among the fastest growing in the world.It is the world's third largest as measured by purchasing power parity, with a GDP of US $4.042 trillion.

yet 73 percent of software there is pirated

I agree with the fact that piracy carries a societal cost but not because it gives an advantage to those who are dishonest. if you didn;t realize it requires 5 years of college to get a bachelors in engineering. you have to be as ignorant as ever to ever have a thought process like this

If a kid cheats the system to become an engineer, what makes you think he wouldn't cheat as an engineer when faced with a difficult problem?

keep in mind college costs about 30,000 a year. so downloading a software as apose to paying 150,000 dollars (plus food and other sutff.)

RE: Piracy is wrong but...
By borowki on 2/3/2007 6:37:02 PM , Rating: 2
I see you're one of those bozos who can't finish in four. That'd explain why you're throwing out a bunch of irrelevant factoids as arguments. And for your information, India is not a rich country.

RE: Piracy is wrong but...
By Chrisgar192 on 2/4/2007 2:33:06 PM , Rating: 2
First, I would to see your supporting facts on your argument, wait you don't have any. Makes your argument pretty weak.

Second, I do not see the connections between completing college earlier and just "throwing out facts". I finish college in 5 years thus that makes me a bozo Wow then this country has no future then.

Third, piracy is a big issue in many developing nations yet it 's thriving their economy. Look at China for instance. If we were to end privacy there it would cause many towns to shutdown.

Privacy is a major issue that does not have answers in neither in shades of white nor black. Remove piracy there and in other parts of the world, then their economy will dip. If their economy dips then the world's economy will take a hit as well. (remember the world is becoming "flat" now)

RE: Piracy is wrong but...
By Tyler 86 on 2/12/2007 6:44:04 PM , Rating: 2

Poor India, poor China, poor Romania.

So what you're trying to say is, without software piracy, all of those nations would not have a software economy?

Suprise flippin' surpise.

Romania could probably manage, China could probably manage, and India could probably manage, but yes, it'd be harder, and lots of changes would have to take place on the part of government policy. Well, duh, expecting less?

You are tossing factoids instead of making an argument.

Maybe you have an answer, but right now, it's just liberalism in overkill.
Fine tune it, and put an edge on that thing.

Good frickin' grief.

Education is hardly of interest, merely a picking point, credible facts that mesh throughout an applicable and sound argument are of major interest, and negate a point such as education.

That said, I have a absolutely horrible education, but I'm doing fine, and I am going to have to go for more to get a raise. I've pirated my share of software, but I know damned well it's wrong, and I know damn well I'm don't have to, neither does anyone else.

Most of the time, it's a matter of conveinience, or credibility. When it comes to a non-personal environment, it's a serious ethical issue that (few times justified) is primarily overlooked in favor of greater profit.

The problem is the users of this pirated software don't make more money, yet their companies do.

They don't care about them, even though they think they do.

Programmers deserve more than 500$ an hour, and development tools, operating systems, and the like, should not cost a year's salary... but piracy is only artificially driving up these prices.

Americans declared independance, 'African-Americans' had Martin Luther King, France got seriously revolutionized maybe a bit too far, and India ... well, India had Ghandi.

China, however, is way too crowded, has the "our land" scenerio, pre-relcaimed Hong Kong contrast, Japanese contrast, and Taiwan contrast.

It's just a more fucked up ethical and economic situation in China than in other places.

India's getting better, reflectably. They know their s***, and they know that they know their s***.

That's the raw deal.

By zbangazbanga on 2/3/2007 2:56:23 AM , Rating: 2
There was hardly any place to buy legal software in Romania at the time Basescu is talking about. Not to mention localized software. Microsoft had no interest in Romania and it was even more so for other software companies.
It’s a miracle people started to buy computers when there was no internet available and all the software was in a language they could not understand.

It was only recently that software companies have started investing money in local offices and software localization.
As long as you don’t invest a dime, you can’t expect to get anything back. As soon as some investments were made and companies actually tried to sell their software, the results came as expected.

RE: Romania
By masher2 on 2/3/2007 12:39:08 PM , Rating: 1
> "There was hardly any place to buy legal software in Romania..."

There's hardly any place to buy a Ferrari in Romania either. Does that make it moral to steal one there?

RE: Romania
By codeThug on 2/3/07, Rating: 0
RE: Romania
By masher2 on 2/4/2007 11:16:34 AM , Rating: 2
> "It would be OK to borrow a Ferrari in Romania, run it through my duplicating machine and then give the original back."

No it wouldn't, which common sense proves. Part of the value of a Ferrari is the design which went into it...copying that steals from those who did that design work, even if you don't physically steal nuts and bolts. They designed the car under the presumption people would buy it, and thus pay for their work. Free copies means no one buys a pricey original.

Secondly, a large part of the value of a Ferrari is the exclusiveness of it. If you copy it, you reduce the value of the original...which is why cheap knock-off Ferraris aren't sold by Ford and Toyota. You can produce something that looks slightly like it...but an exact copy is well as immoral.

RE: Romania
By codeThug on 2/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: Romania
By zbangazbanga on 2/4/2007 4:20:06 AM , Rating: 2
We already know theft is immoral and from that point of view any kind of software piracy in any place is immoral as well.
But things are not always black and white. Suppose a book was banned in your country and you make copies of it to give to your friends… does that make you a thief?

Anyways, my point was... Was there any significant damage to the software companies?

RE: Romania
By xeal on 2/4/2007 9:33:16 PM , Rating: 2
>> "There was hardly any place to buy legal software in Romania..."

> There's hardly any place to buy a Ferrari in Romania either. Does that make it moral to steal one there?

Son, let me tell ya that you are dead wrong on that one.
As paradoxical as it might seem, 10-15 years ago (he was using past tense , but you were not paying attention) it was much more easy to buy a Ferrari than a license of - let's say - Adobe Photoshop (you can replace Photoshop with any other app).
And "use Linux, not Windows" argument just doesn't apply for those dark :p years.

What President Basescu is referring to is the situation from the beginning-mid '90s. Hell, we didn't have licenses even for the Turbo C we were using at the university :p

Then the things started to improve, schools and companies started to buy licenses and now the situation - at least in business - is quasi-normal. Probably at home people still use a lot of pirated software (I left the country 6 years ago so I'm not very up-to-date on the trends ;)) but that happens a lot in your beloved US of A so don't bitch too much about it.

a product of Romania was being stolen
By montgom on 2/2/2007 4:14:58 PM , Rating: 2
Imagine how Romanian President Traian Basescu would feel if a product of Romania was being stolen?

RE: a product of Romania was being stolen
By Pythias on 2/2/2007 4:37:44 PM , Rating: 3
I'm sure he'd understand, if we REALLY wanted it and couldn't afford it. :P

By JustYoureAverageGuy on 2/3/2007 9:23:16 AM , Rating: 2
Well...if you ever Pirated a copy of MS probably "stole" a product partialy made by a romanian. The second spoken language at Redmond is Romanian ( how ironic...huh? ). One of those god awful pirates...that grew up Writing floppy diskettes and CD's with MS windows on them, probably wrote the nifty little "Start" button hat you grew so accustomed to using...or maby even part of the browser you're posting you're comments from.

Sure, pirating is are using something that you did not pay for. But imagine how SMALL the number of applications and/or utilities, and how poor they're quality would be if piracy never existed. Im not trying to justify such actions, but piracy allowed young talented people, that could not afford expensive software, to learn and start developing for that particular platform.
Some of the best developers i know started out with a pirated version of they're favorite OS, and i can guaranty that most if not ALL the Romanians ( and otherwise ) working now for MS pirated they're first copy of the OS. As a result MS now has a strong base of users and developers to lean on.

Eventually the amount of money a Romanian makes will be sufficient to buy Expensive software, and as far as i know, its already happening. Many of my friends started buying the firewalls and anti virus programs they run on they're computer...and some even donated to open source products...just because they were pleased with the product and wanted to see a new, better version of it.

The analogies i have seen so far in this debate, mostly compare Apples to Oranges. It's fairly easy to judge someone without walking a mile in his shoes. Have you been born in Romania or any other country that could not afford seemingly ridiculous prices, you would have done the same, just as i or any other Romanian would have bought the software if we would have been born in a country such as yours. Can you HONESTLY say:"I would have not, under any circumstances, pirated ANY software if i were born in a developing country" ?
President Basescu told the truth in regards to piracy, but pirating software does not build a country...far from it. The IT industry brings in money...but not enough to build a country or raise the standard of living to an acceptable level.

i'm clean, I swear !
By add on 2/3/2007 7:22:10 AM , Rating: 3
Talk if all the mp3's on your computer are bought.

If not, don't give romanians morality lessons.

RE: i'm clean, I swear !
By hellokeith on 2/3/2007 6:25:02 PM , Rating: 2
Don't have any MP3's.

I have a good number of lossless flac files which were legally extracted from CD's which I purchased with my own hard-earned money. I have some lossy files which were downloaded legally from online music stores.

All the digital music I possess was obtained legally. I get great enjoyment out of knowing that the artists, record companies, and online distribution providers all received compensation for that music. I sleep with a free conscience.

RE: i'm clean, I swear !
By xsilver on 2/12/2007 9:07:23 PM , Rating: 2
recording artists make little to nothing on selling cd's -- most of the cost is eaten up by the record studio/transport/retailer. of a $15 cd - they'd get around $1

the recording artist would appreciate much more if you just went to one of their live concerts.
of a $70 concert ticket, they'd get around $30 if not $40

Open Source
By GameManK on 2/2/2007 4:00:36 PM , Rating: 2
Instead of pirating they should have been using FOSS. This is a prime example of how pirating is hurting FLOSS.

RE: Open Source
By Pythias on 2/2/2007 4:09:26 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah but an open source OS mosnt likely wont support the games they want to steal on the hardware they cant afford.

RE: Open Source
By hellokeith on 2/2/2007 4:28:48 PM , Rating: 2
quality post FTW :D

Not lost revenue
By crimson117 on 2/2/2007 4:36:20 PM , Rating: 4
"In 2005, piracy cost the software industry $35 billion USD in lost revenue."

As said on wikipedia, "Revenue loss calculated by industries is often considered to be exaggerated, since one pirated copy of software doesn't automatically mean one lost sale." -

If anything, every pirated copy of non-free software should be said to cost the Open Source industry valuable marketshare. Many more poor countries would have gone with free or open source software if it was impossible to pirate non-free software.

RE: Not lost revenue
By Pythias on 2/2/2007 6:15:24 PM , Rating: 1
Thats microsoft's fault too? How about Many poor countries would have gone to open source, if they werent too busy pirating non-free software.

By add on 2/2/2007 2:35:09 PM , Rating: 2
His name is "BASE S CU", so hard?

Anyway.. he is kindda' right. The fact he told Gates that... not to diplomatic ...

RE: spelling
By jak3676 on 2/2/2007 2:46:16 PM , Rating: 2
At least he admits it and is now working with MS to move forward. How often do you see a head of state stand up and say, yes - we've done it in the past; and only becasue of that have we gotten where we are today. That's more than some countries will admit.

Projected loss doesn't equal Lost income
By Nik00117 on 2/3/2007 10:59:18 AM , Rating: 2
Ok they base those figures on how many poeple have the software and how many poeple priated it.

Example lets say I priate office 2003. Well all fine and dandy I got it now big whoop.

Lets say I can't priate it, and still don't got the $$$ to pay for it. What do i do? Well i'd go with openoffice, therefore their projected loss still isn't profit.

Or much of the priated softawre is often times meant to priate software such as Poweriso and ultraiso. If priating wasn't possible those tools would sell far less.

Projected loss doesn't equal lost income.

You know my buddy he has a really nice job etc. He'll buy 2 or 3 liceases for a game. He has bought windows pro retail for every PC. Why? Well cause he has the money and doesn't care how much it costs it doesn't affect him.

On the other hand their a lot of poeple who 135 bucks fo XP is a lot. And would either priate it, or use linux.

I think one of the best ways to fight priacy is to go with it. Examples some startgies.

Make a donation system, lots of software I use it donation based, and its good quaility software and the devs make money off it.

Microsoft can lower the cost 135 bucks for OEM XP PRO? If they made is 59.99 or somthing i'd sooner buy it then crack it.

ANother idea has been floating around, and that is to make the software useable you msut be connected to a server which will validate it every use.

Microsoft has mentioned the idea of leasing XP. As well.

By The Max on 2/3/2007 5:11:59 PM , Rating: 2
Well i guess piracy is stealing But the grey area comes at the price , in 1986 American lawyers attempted to force europe to enforce their copyright laws much more stringently , europe only agreed if the rrp price was significantly lowered for the then video market . Stating that the prices only encouraged piracy and therefore brought the problem on them selves . If the prices were more fair then people would buy rather than copy and supply . 120 to 135 for an OEM is a bit steep considering dollers to pounds or euro's arn't taken into account , $135 is also 135 euro's pounds sterling ect , $1.95 to the pound would make the likes of vista ultimate 60 odd quid (pounds) so this would account for disgruntled prospective users "piracy" , still it does take a smart ass to crack it for this to be possible , 10,000 programmers to make vista so how many knew how to circumvent the security and how many were pissed enough to do so .

Copyright Infringement =/= Theft
By pheffern on 2/4/2007 8:35:40 AM , Rating: 2
A few problems. First of all, what we are discussing here, despite all the rhetoric, is not theft. It's copyright infringement. They are both liable to criminal punishment of similar degress In the US (Unlike Canada, where it is up to the copyright owner to pursue civil remedies), but they are different creatures. The penalties for copyright infringement rest on an entirely different legal foundation than those for theft. Legally, theft requires an act of taking, a corresponding deprivation of the property taken, and intent. As you can see, copying software, movies, or music is unlikely to satisfy the deprivation requirement, and would not, therefore, be illegal under the various criminal laws against theft in the US and Canada.

Copyright infringement, on the other hand, requires:
1) subject matter protectable by copyright (original literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works in Canada)

2) a right in the owner of the copyrighted work that has not been assigned away, expired, etc.

3) an act by someone other than the owner of the copyright or a license holder which falls under the categories of protected rights, which include the right to: produce, reproduce, perform, publish (if unpublished), produce a translation, convert a dramatic work into a novel (and vice versa), make a sound recording or film of the work, reproduce adapt and publicly present the work as a cinematograph, communicate to the public by telecommunication (this is the one usually cited in Canada as infringed by dissemination over the internet), or rent out (if a computer program or sound recording)

I hope that you can see now how different copyright infringement and theft are. It's true that infringement is illegal, but it is neither accurate nor helpful to proclaim with a blanket statement that 'theft is theft', nor to analogize copyright infringement to stealing a car, stealing candy, or murder.

Copyright infringement is illegal not on the basis of some higher morality, but on the basis of a policy decision to enforce and protect the economic rights of the copyright holders through criminal (or pseudocriminal) law. This decision is motivated by a desire to protect present American economic interests (Do you know what the largest export of the United States is? Entertainment. Copyright infringement threatens the viability of this export.).

This policy decision is far from universal, and before you moralize the issue, consider that until the late 1980's the US had one of the weakest copyright regimes in the Western world. To go further back, the argument could be made that piracy built the US as much as it built Romania. In the early part of the 20th century, there was a booming business in the US (fully legal and approved of by the Americna government) of taking books recently published overseas and republishing and selling them in the states without paying anything to the original author.

My point is that copyright is not an area where you can talk in broad moral abstractions. It is illegal, but not because it's theft, and not because it's somehow inherently morally wrong. It's illegal because it's in the national economic interest to fiercely protect the rights of copyright owners.

By LordSatan on 2/4/2007 9:38:26 PM , Rating: 2
For this to be immoral you must believe in intellectual property.

I work/study in a really cool research lab in a big university. All the code I spit and all the knowledge we generate is public domain. Still private companies finances us by giving us grant in exchange for support.

Intellectual property is a fraud. And don't vomit word about the poor multinational. I know a lot of artist that pay to play and they are damn good and create new sounds opposed to the whining big five servants.

Also there is a horde of challenging, creative and clever filmmaker doing it freely for fun.

The same goes for software. A lot of talented people do it for fun. You should pay for support and customization, not a copy of 0 and 1....

For ip theft to be immoral, you must accept the validity of ip.

My Problem and Solutioning
By beepandbop on 2/4/2007 10:42:13 PM , Rating: 2
I have a limited budget, many people do, and paying for say PC Gamer, which reviews games, (you don't need to buy that, you can read while lounging about your bookstore--and thats not stealing) and tells you which ones to get and which ones not to. There is no excuse for pirating, other than lack of money, in which case you should choose carefully. I definitely agree with you, that bad games will suck, and good games will sell. My take is that you shouldn't pirate. If you're unsure about a game, talk to people who have it, talk and find out. Don't just steal it. Stealing is stealing, and while I see your side, CascadingDarkness, its not totally appropriate, and theres no need to get upset. I'm giving you advice. You have no reason to steal someone else's merchandise, even if its crap. If there's not a demo, that should be a clue.
And again, just look at reviews. Piracy = bad, yes it is black and white, it = bad, don't do it. Be a good boy like the rest of us.

By rykerabel on 2/5/2007 11:20:49 AM , Rating: 2
Simple truth:

Software producers may legally steal my money by selling me crap that I can't return for a refund.

I may illegally steal their software to see if its worth my money and then buy it if its worth it.

Demo/Trial software is usually dissimilar to actual product.

Pirates do not only "steal" software; mainly they sell stolen software. That is a huge distinction.

You "Reading" PC Gamer in the store is actually stealing. Most bookstores define it that way. Your bookstore allowing you to do that is just like Microsoft not prosecuting most consumers.

Porn heaven...
By codeThug on 2/2/2007 7:15:18 PM , Rating: 3
If it weren't for the eastern European countries like Romania you perverts wouldn't have nearly the amount of quality porn you enjoy today.

So STFU...

RE: Porn heaven...
By Pythias on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: Porn heaven...
By TheOneYouKNow on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
piracy helps ms
By figroc on 2/4/2007 10:11:11 PM , Rating: 3
If piracy was suddenly forbidden totally in these countries, most of users would go for linux despite the pain, and most of developers would go for linux eventually.

Spelling Error
By MrDiSante on 2/2/2007 3:22:07 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not a spelling/grammar Nazi but I'm pretty sure that "[...] found away to [...]" is supposed to be "[...]found a way to[...]".

corporations are teh hey
By Neotermer on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: corporations are teh hey
By Neotermer on 2/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: corporations are teh hey
By DeathSniper on 2/3/2007 5:57:18 AM , Rating: 2
I know plenty of "smart" people who buy things - matter of fact they'll probably have trouble torrenting things. What defines a person as smart? Is it their salary? Is it their IQ? Is it their job? Degree? Come on...that's a pretty broad blanket statement that doesn't even hold up at all...

pirating Windows
By senbassador on 2/3/2007 2:59:19 PM , Rating: 2
First off, who the hell would pirate such a crappy OS as Windows in the first place. Like seriously, if you really want free software THAT bad, why not just get Linux or something. (Actually I shouldn't be saying anything, I have Windows on my comp right now as we speak.)

Secondly, I wouldn't go as far as calling "piracy" stealing, but I still think its wrong on some level. Its not stealing in the traditional sense where there is less or something after you take it, afterall its 0's and 1's. Its more on par of freeloading, like stealing cable.

Think of it this way, say your neighbors own a swimming pool in their backyard and lets say that they are on vaction. Would it be ok for you and all your friends to throw a party by sneaking into their backyards under the argument that they're not using it anyway therefore no harm no foul? Or what some people do and go skinny dipping in random people's pools and then run away if they get caught just for fun. Kinda think of it, I've used someone elses swimming pool by traspassing like that too (except for the naked part). I mean its not a big deal and the MPAA is overblowing it and all, but its still not right. Stealing is still stealing.

Full disclosure, I downloaded a lot of songs and other stuff illegally all the time. I am not on some high horse preaching or anything, since I am just as guilty as the rest of you. I am just pointing out that its still not right, sort of.

By yankee bell on 2/4/2007 3:16:30 AM , Rating: 2
i agree that if piracy was stopped, those millions or billions are never to be recovered. but these software analysts if they had a little of grey matter, that would help. suppose microsoft would have released only two versions and at half-priced of what actually they are claiming from the public, there would have been half less piracy - more profit and less trouble. i mean how may millions microsoft spent for the lawsuits???? it would have been more wise to compensate on lower priced windows operating system.

My hero
By scrapsma54 on 2/6/2007 9:38:02 AM , Rating: 2
This comes as no surprise to Romanian President Traian Basescu. It is estimated that 70% of the software used in Romania is pirated -- and President Basescu is proud of it.

lol, pirating will make his country go into a great depression.

By mcforge on 2/6/2007 6:04:31 PM , Rating: 2
first things first ... i am not for software piracy ... copying an application or a game is just as xeroxing a book ... it's not right ... it was the author's idea and (s)he decided (s)he'd like some compensation for it ... otherwise (s)he would have released it under gnu public license or any other Open Source license ... however ...

1) to Pythias and the like, who say all those who pirate software should be imprisoned/locked up/have there arses thrown in jail ... i'd like to see u'r arses in our shoes (yeah, i'm romanian) ... i'd like to see what you would do if your parents earned about 300$ together and you had to pay all the taxes we have to (trust me, living in Romania might be cheap -- or at least normal -- for someone who's coming from a developed country -- attention, developed, not developing --, but for us, it's not that cheap ... the taxes here are considerable, if we take in account the actual money an average family earns) ... i'd like to see how high and mighty you are then ... it's not right, but it is, and it helps people ... sh*t, a considerable part of foreign economy is based on underpaying (compared to what someone from that country would get) smart people from developing countries for their work ... and they learned to do it because of software piracy ... that's why the laws are not that tough ... if they really wanted to stop it, they would, but it would hurt their pockets ... oh, and, as said by a previous poster, the US had some copyright infringements of it's own in the beginning ... and look how it turned out ... so shut up, will you? ...

2) you say it's not a necessity ... yes it is ... you almost can't survive in today's world without (at least) some basic knowledge on using a pc ... and if one can't pay for the software to being with, how the f*ck should one learn how to operate it, in order to get a decent buck and then buy it or other software, huh? ... use you're heads ... it's not right, it's not legal, but it is necessary ... and it is overlooked because the people handling all the money have realized they have more to gain by doing it ... and i'm not talking just about profits in the virtual domain, either ... they overlook this stuff and, in return, they get very cheap labor ... most of the clothing and other apparel sold by major companies worldwide are mare in Asia ... and the pay the workers get would make a citizen of the US or European Union shiver ...

3) you say switch to Open Source ... you go do it ... i'm running a dual boot system (windows xp and linux -- and, yes, i do have a license for the winxp) ... and although i am pleased with linux, i still need winxp for some stuff, because some app's just don't exist under linux ... yes, there are app's for linux that do kinda the same thing, but they are harded to use and not so user friendly ... let's face it, windows was made for the masses, while linux was made by programmers for programmers ... all the important software companies design app's only for windows ... most of the app's for linux are made by programmers for themselves and then, on a whim, released on the net ... they might find what they did and how they designed it logical, but most other people won't, so it's harder to use them ... trust me, if it were as easy as you think and make it seem like, people would do it in a heartbeat ... why risk jail if you can be legal about it? ... but most of the time people are working their head off to put a meal on the table ... they don't have the time and physical resources to learn how to use and Open Source application ... changes have begun taking place, but it will take time before open source app's are more accessible ...

4) and the last one (b'cause i've got a math exam in two days time and i gotta go back to studying) ... the world isn't black and white ... it never has been and never will be .. there are no absolute rights or wrongs ... everything is gray, everything is relative ... it depends on the time and place where something takes place, on the situation the people involved in that something are in, on the motivation of those people and so on and so forth ... the laws that exist and that are being passed are flawed, because they are general ... there are no 2 situations alike ... they might have similarities, but they will also have differences ... laws are but guidelines ... it is their interpretation in different cases that leads to conviction or absolution ...

so, to end this long comment ... think before you judge ... not everyone lives under your conditions and what may seem so wrong to you is for us just a means of survival ... we're not saying it's right ... but if it weren't at all, we'd be living a lot harder that we are now ... chew on this for a while ... i really am looking forward to replies, if any ...

Piracy is Wrong
By Jamie on 2/9/2007 11:03:08 AM , Rating: 2
I think those that are pirating software miss the whole point because they are in fact acting in an illegal way.
I am sorry Romania is a poor country. This is not the fault of Bill Gates or MS. It is not the fault of the music industry nor the world. This falls on the shoulders of the government and people of Romania. Piracy is black and white. It is stealing no matter how you justify it. The fact that Romanians make so little money is the fault of the people who allow their government to keep them supressed. It isn't my fault or the companys that make products nor is it my fault because I live in a country where there is opportunity.
This leader is spitting in the face of the world by admitting that Romania is built on theft. He makes a mockery of the rest of the world who are law-abiding. I struggled to find work in the US. I struggle to make a decent paycheck to buy what I want. Why should this be any different in any other country or for anyone else in the world.
I want a new car. I don't go to a car dealership and steal it. I have to find a legal avenue in which to afford to buy that car. Tough luck that I don't make enough to buy a ferrari.
I can't afford cable with HBO. I can afford cable with basic channels. I don't steal the service because I can't afford it. I have to wait until I make better money so I can afford to buy it. I can't dictate to the cable company how much they should charge me for their service. They set the price. The same is true for any other product in the world. The company that makes the product sets the price and I can either afford it or not. If the price is too steep, don't buy the product AND don't steal it. Demand determines price! If I can't afford it, I don't get it. That's black and white.
Those that pirate hide behind entitlement. Because I can't afford it, I will use whatever avenue I have to get it. Romania is making money off of someone elses property and being entertained by a industry it has no legal rights to. No matter how much Romanians deny this fact, it is true. Without this theft of service Romania wouldn't be where it is today in the world of technology. How can it be justified? I stole something someone else created and I profitted from that. I am justified because I profitted. Is it right that the company who provided the product lost the revenue it could have made from those people? It went from legal pocket to an illegal pocket.
We see the same being done in other countries like China and the Phillipines and even the US. This is not limited to one specific country or one specific group of people. When you take the combined revenue people make from piracy in the entire world, the figure must be astronomical. It can't be put into $$ figures because it spills into other areas.
For those of you that continue to pirate, you will always find an excuse to justify your actions and behaviors. What goes around comes around. In the future, when you have been ripped off, don't cry. We don't want to hear it!

By zdarova on 2/18/2007 6:41:36 PM , Rating: 2
maybe the President of Romania was too ironical, but is and moust of my friends,romanians started to know computer with cracked versions of OS or programs...but now...i start to buy them...i understood that somebody worked for them.

So...there are moustly 2 kind of those who use pirated software, first...who will realise (as a fact of morality) that is unfair to do that and second, those who will use forever cracked SW.
This phenomenon it cannot be controled by low, maybe by god :D

All Pirates belong in jail
By cornfedone on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: All Pirates belong in jail
By Xenoid on 2/2/2007 10:53:55 PM , Rating: 3
I pirate and I'm not going to stop any time soon. I don't care what you think either. If you can afford a few thousand dollars in software every year, along with a few MILLION dollars worth of music that I have, then be my guest.

RE: All Pirates belong in jail
By Tamale on 2/3/2007 11:49:37 AM , Rating: 5

just did some quick math. a 100gb music collection would have roughly 25,000 songs assuming 4mb/song on the average. Even at itune's stupidly high price of $0.99 a song, that's only $25,000 worth of music.

I'd really like to know how you came up with "a few million dollars"

pirates ^__^
By SakuraChan on 2/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: pirates ^__^
By leexgx on 2/13/2007 11:14:26 AM , Rating: 2
Vista Ultima 64 is the first OS i think i payed for

most resone i had for useing XP Pro COrp was the product actervation as i upgrade my pc alot

TV program on the other had is an other story the TV/Sky industry needs to catch up with user base like me (downloading TV shows files with Small adverts id be fine with that as that be leagl as well norm downloading files with No adverts is loss income )

"A lot of people pay zero for the cellphone ... That's what it's worth." -- Apple Chief Operating Officer Timothy Cook

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