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Google is looking to one-up that iPad's Retina display

Apple may be looking to crush the competition's hopes of taking over the 7" tablet market with its upcoming iPad Mini, but Google is looking to grab a few headlines of its own on Monday, October 29.
According to The Next Web, Google will officially unveil a 32GB version of its popular Nexus 7 tablet. The device has already turned up in stores across the U.S. and some lucky people have even been able to purchase the device, which is priced at $249 (the same price as the previous 16GB model). In addition, there will also be another 32GB Nexus 7 that will feature 3G connectivity. This device will most likely be aimed right at Amazon's 8.9" Kindle Fire HD LTE 4G (say that three times fast).

The star of the show, however, will be Google's new 10" tablet that was developed in conjunction with Samsung. This tablet will come bearing Android 4.2 (still operating under the Jelly Bean codename) and a Retina-surpassing resolution of 2560x1600 (300 ppi). Apple's "New iPad" features a screen resolution of 2048x1536 (264 ppi).
The device will likely be called the Nexus 10. We don't have any specs to report on at this time other than the screen, but we can only assume that it'll be packing a quad-core processor and at least 64GB of storage space at the high-end.

Source: The Next Web

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That's great and all, but...
By teng029 on 10/21/2012 2:09:21 PM , Rating: 4
what abou actual apps that are optimized for that type of a display? as it stands, most Android tablet apps are just stretched phone apps. the hardware specs can only do so much unless Google's developers start optimizing apps for large screens.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By FastEddieLB on 10/21/2012 2:29:21 PM , Rating: 2
The only things I would even want a tablet for have apps that are intended for that resolution. I see no problem.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By vapore0n on 10/22/12, Rating: -1
RE: That's great and all, but...
By Souka on 10/22/12, Rating: -1
RE: That's great and all, but...
By KITH on 10/22/2012 3:23:14 PM , Rating: 2
I imagine that Samsung can sell Google as good of a screen as they sell to Apple. Or are you deluded enough to believe Apple makes their own screens?

RE: That's great and all, but...
By Souka on 10/22/12, Rating: -1
RE: That's great and all, but...
By mcnabney on 10/23/2012 9:46:59 AM , Rating: 2
Do you think Apple makes their own displays? They just buy off-the-shelf parts like any other OEM. The iPad3 display looks good because it is based on IPS technology and it has a high DPI. I don't think they have gotten a patent on that yet.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By testerguy on 10/24/2012 5:13:05 AM , Rating: 1
Don't confuse Apple employing manufacturers with buying 'off the shelf' parts. The screens in the iPad and iPhone are made to their custom design and specifications. LG and Sharp make the iPhone screens to Apples design, Samsung lacks the in-cell technology required.

Same goes for other parts like the CPU which is entirely Apples design.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By liem107 on 10/24/2012 5:35:46 AM , Rating: 2
samsung doesn't have the in cell tech???wow this is rich . Samsung has achieved it a loooong time ago and is a few years in advance...just look at the old galaxy S (1) screen and you will discover "in cell" tech but on an AMOLED screen aka "super amoled" which is what apple will use in several years but they will stick the term "revolutionary". This is just sharp and LG catching up with Samsung but they still don t have it right on AMOLED.

By Armageddonite on 10/24/2012 10:21:46 AM , Rating: 2
There's a difference between parts made to a client's required specs, and a client having an exclusive contract on what would otherwise be a mainstream product. And Apple got where it is on the backs of partners like Samsung for processors and LG for the Retina display, not on their own.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By TakinYourPoints on 10/21/2012 4:52:20 PM , Rating: 3
It'll happen once people start buying Android tablets. Developers have little reason to design tablet apps for Android since so few are out there. The Android app market isn't that profitable even on the smartphone side, so there's even less incentive to put resources into tablets. If sales pick up and it starts making money then you'll see more tablet apps, its that simple. Chicken and the egg issue here.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By NellyFromMA on 10/22/2012 1:02:49 PM , Rating: 1
Stop making points. All valid points cease to exist in the face of Android

RE: That's great and all, but...
By StevoLincolnite on 10/22/2012 7:33:17 AM , Rating: 2
I would love a 24" screen (Or 3) with double that Resolution... WHY hasn't it happened yet!? Obviously the Technology is readily available.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By mcnabney on 10/22/2012 10:29:30 AM , Rating: 2
4K displays have been out for over a decade.

The industry just wants to milk every generation for as long as it can.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By MastermindX on 10/22/2012 12:37:24 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think it's a matter of milking customers. It's more a matter of "mass produceability".

It's like for processors... IBM produced transistors working at frequencies superior to 10 gHz like what... 15 years ago? That was for single, stand alone transistors. Yet, 15 years later, the fastest processors runs at what? 3.5 gHz, give or take.

Even though they can build a single transistor that operates at 10+ gHz, they can't cram 1 billions of them in a chip smaller than your thumb's fingernail, that are stable at 10 gHz and don't overheat.

I'm not saying planned obsolescence is not a reality. It does exists. But the main reason of the slow progress in many areas is usually more a question of manufacturing process lagging behind.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By retrospooty on 10/22/2012 3:42:22 PM , Rating: 2
Yup... Its one thing to make a breakthrough prototype or extremely high end product. Its totally another to be able to mass produce it and have it be affordable by the average consumer. The company that can do the latter is the one that makes money.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By zephyrprime on 10/23/2012 11:22:50 AM , Rating: 2
Not in this case. Mass production high res lcd has been available for a some years now. There just hasn't been any market demand for it. But there hasn't been any market demand for it because consumers are uneducated about the product. I remember reading the ceo of viewsonic answering some dudes question regarding high res screens a few years ago and his answer was there just wasn't any demand. This is a market where most people buy the cheapest 22" LCD they can get. 22" is still the most commonly sold lcd size. It takes a luxury goods maker like Apple (who has a strong brand, strong marketing, and a large herd of deep pocketed sheep) introducing an advanced feature as a premium feature on a high price point product for said feature to become popularized. The computer market is becoming like the car market where high end manufacturers spearhead the adoption of innovations like they did with disc brakes and fuel injection long ago.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By someguy123 on 10/22/2012 5:38:14 PM , Rating: 2
Where did this insane conspiracy come from anyway? Why are people on a PPI bandwagon these days?

Try actually running gpu demanding (or even a web browser) software on something like a T220 back when it was released. Hell if 4k became the standard on desktop PCs right at this moment I'm sure we'd see endless complaints from people trying to play video games at 4K, who will inevitably point the finger at developers for not "optimizing" enough on a 8 million pixel screen.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By icrf on 10/23/2012 12:47:35 PM , Rating: 2
Higher PPI means more clarity (to a point, as Apple's "retina" marketing makes clear). Yes, current commodity hardware is lacking to do realtime 3D rendering or video decoding at resolutions that high, but the vast majority of what people stare at on their phones, tablets, laptops, and desktops is text, not movies or games. We have plenty computing power to drive extremely high resolution text.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By someguy123 on 10/23/2012 6:07:26 PM , Rating: 2
Significantly higher density means more clarity better text rendering, but the difference is greatly exaggerated, with the exception of moving from very low density for phones to the current standard of around 200ppi or so. At that point pixel edges become significantly less clear and you get decent text rendering.

Having a relatively low PPI standard is not arbitrary. try running apple's macbook retina and watch as it struggles to even browse youtube, dropping to 15~30fps frequently. that macbook actually has superior hardware to the "average" computer spent staring at text and charts. It's going to be a long time before your average computer has something comparable to an i7. The response times would also likely be worse overall considering more pixels for the panel to handle. We started seeing HD adoption in the late 90s for broadcast and nowadays hardware is still mostly just good enough for 1080p.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By FormulaRedline on 10/22/2012 10:59:08 AM , Rating: 2
I'm with you on wanting the higher res monitors, but there's a couple of issues here. First is likely the yield, or the amount of screens you can actually use out of the screens you attempt to make (i.e. all the elements are mechanically aligned, all electrical connections are sound, no dead pixels, etc).

If you have a screen with 4x the number of pixels as your old screen, it also about 4x as likely to fail. Imagine you have a 99% yield for the original screen (or 1% failure). If you simplify the equation and say that all you have to to do is make 4 screens and these will magically join together, then the chance any large screen will be good is 99% to the fourth power. So 99%^4 is approximately 96%, or a 4% failure rate. Not only have you quadrupled your failure rate, but you've quadrupled the amount of materials lost when you do fail. This makes increasing resolution exponential more difficult and expensive.

That being said, the industry is obviously making progress and we'll get there eventually.

Second, even if you were willing to pay the high prices that low yield would currently drive, you still don't have any easy way to drive the display. Current cabling standards don't have the bandwidth. Though this is again not really a technological limitation. We can obviously do it...we just need a standard so people can manufacture the new cables.

In other words, it's a commercial issue rather than a technological one, but advancements in manufacturing technology would help drive the prices down and make it more commercially viable. While you and I would pay for these displays today, the potential market will have to expand past us early adopters to make it a profitable decision.

Kudos to Apple and Google for working with the display manufacturers to help drive the market toward this end!

RE: That's great and all, but...
By zephyrprime on 10/23/2012 12:21:33 PM , Rating: 2
Failure rate increases with res but current manufacturing is god enough to handle higher res screen on small computer monitor sized displays. The failure rate for a high res 22-30" lcd is going to be much less than the failure rate of a 60" HD tv. Panel size matters a lot more for failure than screen res.

RE: That's great and all, but...
By Moishe on 10/23/2012 11:31:07 AM , Rating: 1
It is fairly annoying that screens are 1920x1080 until you get to the 30".

1080 is reasonable about up to 20". Now we have cheap 23", 24", and 27" screens, but if you want a decent resolution, the cost triples.

By EnzoFX on 10/21/2012 2:28:04 PM , Rating: 2
That high res is great, they must have a hefty SoC, custom even maybe, to pump that res. I also hope the developer support is somewhat close as it is on iOS. The tablet space is still lacking for me on Android, when it comes to apps. I may jump ship to an iPad. =P

RE: Great
By TakinYourPoints on 10/22/2012 1:37:56 AM , Rating: 2
It needs to be custom, at least based on the GPU performance of current non-A5X and A6 hardware. If they go with current Android hardware right now then it will be choppy as hell.

RE: Great
By theapparition on 10/22/2012 9:44:34 AM , Rating: 3
Please. You act like the A5, A5X and A6 aren't cobbled together from available off the shelf designs. The GPU isn't some mystery, it's just a PowerVRSGX540-MP4.

ANYONE can license that design and put in in a SoC. Or the myriad of other available GPU designs.

And Apple SoCs are designed by..........Samsung. Same manufacturer of this rumored tablet.

RE: Great
By senecarr on 10/22/2012 10:47:56 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry, as much as I'm a Samsung fan, I have to correct you there. The A5 and A5x are indeed off the shelf the designs, and the A4 was designed for Apple by Infineon and Samsung. The A6 is a different animal. It was designed by Apple's team, many of whom are from Infineon (Which Apple bought). One of Apple's employees is actually also a designer for the ARM A15.
What Apple did with the A6 was the same thing Qualcomm has been doing - custom core that is ARM instruction compatible, but specific design is not the stock ARM one.
Now, can Samsung make a processor that can run this tablet? Well of course, the Samsung Exynos 5 is perfectly capable, it runs two Arm A15 cores, and has a Mali T604. The chip is already out there, powering the newest Chromebook. The chip has some serious graphics advantages - since both GPU and CPU are designed by core, they are integrated so they can share their cache for working together.

RE: Great
By theapparition on 10/22/2012 4:31:22 PM , Rating: 2
Specifically the issue was GPU. You are correct though, that the A6 uses a custom core that is not stock ARM. Correction taken.

But you also minimize Samsung's role in the design of the A6. They are not strictly the manufacturer, they also co-designed it as well.

RE: Great
By TakinYourPoints on 10/22/2012 5:18:08 PM , Rating: 1
Incorrect, Samsung is purely a foundry in regards to the A6

RE: Great
By theapparition on 10/23/2012 9:53:03 AM , Rating: 3
That comment alone indicates you know nothing of the industry.

Foundries aren't like PCB shops where you just supply the gerbers.

In short, stop commenting about things where you have no clue.

RE: Great
By testerguy on 10/24/2012 5:17:05 AM , Rating: 2
He's absolutely right.

Samsung played no part in the design.

Apple is rumoured to be moving chip production away from Samsung. They essentially designed the architecture and can employ any manufacturer to produce it.

RE: Great
By TakinYourPoints on 10/22/2012 4:08:40 PM , Rating: 3
The A6 was designed by Apple, not Samsung. They spent billions on semi-conductor companies over the last year years and have an ARM architecture license. Even Anand initially thought that Apple somehow produced Cortex A15 based SoCs in volume, something that seemed difficult given the iPhone 5's release schedule. In fact it was a custom design by Apple that is faster and more efficient than anything out there.

For years it's been rumored that Apple has held an ARM architecture license. With the A6 we now have conclusive proof.

More importantly, even if they didn't design their SoCs, why don't other companies produce their own using these faster components? Why is the Tegra 3 still considered among the high end for Android devices? It seems like madness that Samsung would give one of their top competitors the fastest SoC out there.

By GreyMulkin on 10/21/2012 6:13:56 PM , Rating: 2
Is a 10" nexus tablet something to be excited about? Sure.

You can't say the same about such high resolution. I would much prefer having the hardware operate more capably with a ~200ppi screen.

or even better, find a way to get full 24-bit rgb out of an e-ink display.

RE: ridiculous
By ritualm on 10/21/2012 7:30:27 PM , Rating: 3
I think not.

It's not a matter of 'create something idiot-proof and the stupid will find ways to break it'. It's about pushing the upper limits of hardware performance, showing what can be done with existing stuff, and creating demand for future hardware that can operate at such high levels idle instead of max load.

What the 2012 (large) iPad really did was drive home the need of a smaller process node for high-performance handheld computing; the MBPR made hardware scalers past 2560 x 1600 in GPUs a requirement. Never mind that 4K2K is a few years from hitting the marketplace and very few existing systems can handle that right now.

Remember AMD's EyeFinity in the 5000-series GPUs? It wasn't about multi-display gaming, its goal was the Holodeck, and 100 million pixels in 180 degrees surround mode is likely an underestimate. Flight simulation training systems already use such tech to simulate a real plane's cockpit. In a few years the tech will be good enough to train USAF pilots without losing jets that routinely cost $100M-apiece.

High resolution isn't just about displaying more pixel data than our eyes can see, it's about enabling more functional than gimmicky interactive tech. Don't worry, we'll find ways of making full use of ever-increasing display pixel counts.

RE: ridiculous
By B3an on 10/21/12, Rating: 0
RE: ridiculous
By retrospooty on 10/22/2012 8:41:30 AM , Rating: 2
Not any recent build. Its fast now, and being a Nexus it will be released on the latest build.

RE: ridiculous
By NellyFromMA on 10/22/2012 1:09:00 PM , Rating: 2
In theory, yes. Here's an analogy to support the claim:

Multi-core processors and multi-threaded apps. Today, only now do applications use multi-threading in semi-useful ways. This was for a number of reasons, but primarily, because the hardware wasn't out en masse. It took a good 10 years (feels like) for the hardware to be in the masses enough for devs to actually have incentive to thoroughly explore the functionality.

Businesses don't make money catering to hardware that isn't largely available EXCEPT if your customers are in a niche group. Particularly if you can charge an associated premium.

People will find use for the higher res. Just expect it to take awhile. Probably not 10 years since multi-threading is obviously more complicated than higher-res images.

Lucky for Win 8 the majority of content will scale up automatically.

Does anyone know if Android interfaces support SVG or some dirivitive? The same supportive claim would be true for Android then as well, but I wasn't sure.

RE: ridiculous
By TakinYourPoints on 10/22/2012 1:23:04 AM , Rating: 1
You can't say the same about such high resolution. I would much prefer having the hardware operate more capably with a ~200ppi screen.

It is definitely a problem with the less efficient OS and slower graphics hardware available on the Android platform. Even if it isn't there now it should be in a year. High DPI is nothing to fight against.

RE: ridiculous
By Moishe on 10/23/2012 11:21:52 AM , Rating: 1
I agree with you. The resolution is cool. The 10" is cool. It's not a bad idea, but this really is a dick measuring contest between Google and Apple.

The up-side is that heavy competition means cheap tablets for us consumers.

I do think the resolution is pointless for most people. Like the Ghz wars, most people only need/want/use the slower ones for the price.

All I want a tablet for...
By thesavvymage on 10/21/2012 5:05:22 PM , Rating: 2
Literally all I want is an ~9inch tablet that can play back my anime files with advanced subtitle rendering. I commute alot on the bus and need something to do. The galaxy tab 8.9 was the perfect size, but tegra 2 failed at video playback for my needs. The Kindle Fire HD 8.9" looks again to be the perfect size, and the omap 4470 can play my files, but watching custom videos on the kindle is a PITA especially since I can't root it and just put cyanogen on it. Hopefully the cm team finds away around amazons limitations once that device launches. Would just get the tf300 from asus, but its a little big for my tastes, and the nexus 7 just doesnt have the storage capacity i'd like because of the lacking microsd slot

RE: All I want a tablet for...
By MadMan007 on 10/21/2012 9:23:52 PM , Rating: 2
If you're really chomping at the bit and want to get one asap, and the Nexus 7 fills all your needs except storage, you could always use it with USB OTG to expand the storage.

RE: All I want a tablet for...
By jimbojimbo on 10/22/2012 12:03:06 PM , Rating: 2
I'd say go Note 10.1 with its 64GB microSD card support it's pretty damn nice. Only drawback is there isn't a good player for the DTS codec.

I have a silly question
By ShaolinSoccer on 10/21/2012 10:59:08 PM , Rating: 2
Operating systems have been around for a very long time now. Will we ever get to the point where they no longer need to be updated? I'm not talking about "security updates". I'm talking about the functionality of the OS. I can understand companies rolling out updates in increments to maximize profits. But, can't there end up being the "perfect" OS one day? When that happens, then what?

RE: I have a silly question
By TakinYourPoints on 10/22/2012 1:55:17 AM , Rating: 2
Current changes in operating systems are driven by computers being more mobile. Laptops, tablets, smartphones, etc. High speed computing isn't tethered to a desk anymore, just as they weren't limited to mainframes or clusters before.

Operating systems and applications will adapt based on the different usage cases when you make what was once massive and cooled by freon into something cooled by plain old air that fits in your pocket. This is why you are hearing so much buzz about wearable computing, it is a logical next step given the projected advances in performance and efficiency.

Physical form is a major factor that drives an operating system. They will cease to change when their physical forms stop changing, which is probably never.

Probaly Dual Core, not Quad
By senecarr on 10/22/2012 10:39:05 AM , Rating: 2
The resolution makes it look like the tablet will be the Tab 11.8 that was in court room documents during the Apple lawsuit.
Given the specs for the rumored 11.8, and the resolution, it will most likely be a dual core. Why? Well to run 2560x1600, you need a different GPU than the one in Samsung's quad core cpus. Samsung's Quad core is always paired with the Mali 4, and consists of 4 Arm A9 cores. Running the above resolution requires the Mali 6, which Samsung is only unleashing with their dual core processor that has 2 Arm A15 cores.

RE: Probaly Dual Core, not Quad
By zephyrprime on 10/23/2012 11:31:09 AM , Rating: 2
Could there be a new chip introduced with this as well?

No chance for Android tablets to overtake iPad
By vision33r on 10/23/2012 12:59:31 AM , Rating: 2
Smartphones Android dominate, since all smartphones can make phone calls, check emails, and browse web. It's natural for folks to pick free or cheaper alternatives to Apple iPhones.

For tablets, the biggest difference is apps. What good is a tablet without good content?

I can name 3 areas that Android Apps totally behind iOS.

- Games
- Education
- Professional

There is a total lack of high quality educational apps on the Google Play Store, which is why schools are buying iPads full price in volume.

Medical, insurance, business industries are buying ipads for mobile usage for email checking, video conference, meetings, doctors use it to check x-rays and access client records.

All this can be accomplished on Android but due to so much hardware fragmentation there is a large enterprise vendor that can support Android on a hardware and software level.

By liem107 on 10/24/2012 9:48:19 AM , Rating: 2
Totally agree with this.
Android apps are legions but quality apps are very sparse. especially in the fields you mentioned.
I think there is also a piracy and cultural problem on android. Android users are more tech aware than Iphone/Ipad users and are more prone to engage into hacking/piracy or will rather go for free apps even if it is only a matter of few dollars. This is a major source of discouragement for devs. A lot of users would even push the absurdity farther by pirating free apps financed by ads! Hardware sales are pushed by quality software but software devs would only develop if there is a market to sell their software. Google made a good attempt to push hardware sales by selling the dirty cheap nexus 7 which is almost perfect...

Why complain about the PPI-war??
By morob05 on 10/21/2012 7:33:20 PM , Rating: 1
I seriously don't get it...? As far as i'm concerned this PPI-war is an exciting development that will also boost motivation on other parts of the computer industry. Many of you are complaining that you don't notice the difference anyways and that these new screens are very demanding on graphics processing power. I don't know if you realize this, but you do retain the option of running at lower non-native resolutions... Anyways the way i see it the PPI-war is a good thing since it creates a great demand for powerful gpu's, thus lowering the costs of such gpu's and compelling developers to develop ever more powerful chips at reasonable prices. I just don't get the reason for complaining about it? It's as if some people just have the need to have something to bitch about...

By inperfectdarkness on 10/22/2012 2:04:26 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed. Putting WQXGA on a 10" screen only proves my point that it should already be offered on 15" and especially 17" laptops. I am going to falcon punch my old high-powered laptop with a sh***y 1080p screen to the curb as soon as I can upgrade.

I am so sick of being stuck with resolutions lower than what was the standard 5-6 years ago. Hulk Smash!

I smell Patent Infringement
By Meinolf on 10/22/2012 8:23:34 AM , Rating: 2
I smell Patent Infringement

Tablet feature set - late 2013
By dowen777 on 10/22/2012 1:49:09 PM , Rating: 2
Quad core, 2560 X 1600, Dolby sound, < 12 oz., < .25", min 2GB RAM, min 64 GB, USB 3.0, mini-HDMI, min 20 hrs battery, front (2MP) & rear (min 8MP), Bluetooth

caveat, I'm not nearly as technical as most of you, forgive my snafus

The Google Crisp display
By tharik on 10/23/2012 11:55:28 AM , Rating: 2
I hope Google brands there high resolution display as Crisp. I was surprised the brains at Apple did not think of it. So, Apple can have the Retina display and Google can have the Crisp display.

Nobody that uses Apple would probably even get it if they called it an Apple Crisp display.

LOLZ !!!!!!
By momorere on 10/23/2012 1:33:43 PM , Rating: 2
By damianrobertjones on 10/21/12, Rating: -1
RE: No
By EnzoFX on 10/21/2012 2:24:28 PM , Rating: 2
No. Are you one of those that don't understand the other benefits of a higher ppi? This isn't about fitting more on the screen like it was on desktops and laptops.

RE: No
By inighthawki on 10/21/2012 2:29:29 PM , Rating: 2
There's a point where being able to see clarity while holding it 3" from your face is beaten out by the processing power and battery drain required to render everything on the screen at that level of clarity. High res displays come at a pretty high cost in those departments.

RE: No
By Samus on 10/21/2012 5:30:52 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. Anything over 240-260ppi is really surpassing the limits of the human eye at viewing distance.

It's not like the average user is going to be looking at the text under a magnifying glass like searching through the obituaries in a newspaper...thats what pinch or tap-to-zoom is for.

RE: No
By mcnabney on 10/22/2012 10:35:10 AM , Rating: 2
Remember - raising the resolution has a cost besides dollars.

More pixels means more power to run the screen and an incrementally more powerful GPU in the SoC to maintain performance - which in turn eats more battery. The iPad 3 is a giant battery - doubling battery size of the iPad2 just to maintain the same amount of useful time.

RE: No
By someguy123 on 10/21/2012 6:11:33 PM , Rating: 4
The other benefits like reduced pixel edge visibility and edge rounding for games only make sense if the hardware and battery life are there. People grossly overestimate the power of these processors, and most of the time they never reach full load to save battery life. Even with apples walled in garden you run into performance problems/dumbed down visuals to meet retina, if not half internal resolution. Most developers will probably not even try to meet native until hardware catches up, but it's not like you can swap out a SoC later if you purchase a tablet now. All of your video will need to be upscaled as well if you want to full screen.

This type of push makes sense on something plugged into a wall socket, but it seems like the wrong priority for portables.

RE: No
By tayb on 10/21/2012 9:41:05 PM , Rating: 3
I don't know about everyone else but when I use my tablet I hold it about two inches from my face.

RE: No
By TakinYourPoints on 10/21/2012 4:46:44 PM , Rating: 2
It isn't about fitting more on screen, it is about smoothing out text and graphics by the use of larger assets.

An iPad has a resolution of 2048x1536, but the proportions and layout of the UI are still based around 1024x768. The benefit is much cleaner graphics and text. Google will use the same method with this new tablet.

Windows 8 not properly rendering at such high resolutions is a shortcoming of desktop operating systems. Once it gets to rendering things properly at such high resolutions, then higher DPI displays will make sense on the desktop and laptop. It'll happen on the PC side, just watch. Apple just got this working on the retina MBP. You can drive the OS X desktop at 2880x1800 and things aren't tiny because they use 2x res or scaled up assets to make up for the increased resolution.

RE: No
By TweakEn on 10/21/2012 5:17:27 PM , Rating: 1
This PPI war needs to stop. Cell phones and tablets should not have a PPI over 250. I have a GNex with 316 PPI, and a Nexus 7 with 210 PPI. I have perfect eye sight and my Nexus 7 is just fine, because I don't hold my tablet 6 inches from my face like a retard. Apple has created a race in a market that should not exist. All this war is doing is making it so we need faster processors and GPUs to handle all these pixels, which in turn adds to higher costs for consumers. It's just silly. 2560 x 1600 at 10 inches is 301.887 PPI according to my calculations. Use your brain and tone it down to 1920 x 1080, which is 220.29 PPI and save the consumers some money on something we can't even see in the first place. Apple's Retina laptop is retarded. 5 million pixels that the graphics card can barely drive that many pixels. Facebook on this laptop reaches 20 frames per second when scrolling because the GPU can't handle the pixels. WAKE UP MANUFACTURERS! STOP FOLLOWING APPLE'S LEAD! Why do you think their stock is on a huge decline? Because they haven't been innovative in 3 years.

RE: No
By michael2k on 10/21/2012 6:50:30 PM , Rating: 5
Nonsense! What we really need is the PPI wars to grow until all laptops, desktops, and LCDs are all 300 PPI.

RE: No
By inperfectdarkness on 10/22/2012 2:53:47 AM , Rating: 2

Stop holding innovation back. Push the displays and the hardware will have to follow.

RE: No
By retrospooty on 10/22/2012 8:50:06 AM , Rating: 3
Tweaken, believe me, I am no Apple fan but thay DO do a great job pushing standards. They did it in 2007 with the great multitouch UI and again again recently with retina displays. It is innovation? No, it is utilizing existing tech better than the competition (of course that ebbs and flows). But this is a good thing. It is forcing other makers to raise the bar and it is ushering in the end of the 1366x767 laptop. I agree over 300 ppi is overkill, but it beats the hell out of the "underkill" we have lived with up until recently. I thank Apple for this, its something that we all benefit from.

If not for Apple's retina pushing the specs up, I wouldnt be using my Nexus 7 with 1280x800 , it would still be 1024x600 and I wouldnt have bought it.

RE: No
By aliasfox on 10/22/2012 11:33:34 AM , Rating: 2
For once I agree with you - bringing 300dpi to mainstream is a good thing. It forces the competition to do use better screens, it forces SoC manufacturers to increase performance while holding power consumption as close to constant as possible, and it results in better products for all of us. Are they more expensive than products with lower specifications? Yes. But without higher specification devices pushing down the price of lower specification devices, even crappy 1024 x 600 tablets would still be higher priced.

Retina iPad comes out at the same price as the iPad2, which gets pushed cheaper. iPad2's cheaper price should then drag Galaxy Tab and Transformer Prime prices lower, which will then depress the prices of entry level 7" tablets. No matter where in that market you're looking to buy in at, the appearance of the Retina iPad and (hopefully) the new Nexus 10 is a benefit.

RE: No
By retrospooty on 10/22/2012 11:56:43 AM , Rating: 2
"It forces the competition to do use better screens, it forces SoC manufacturers to increase performance while holding power consumption as close to constant as possible, and it results in better products for all of us."

Exactly... And for those that complain and don't want a 2560x1600 10 inch tablet, don't buy one. Because of this, you can get a lower res one for even cheaper, because its specs have been surpassed and therefore its a lower end cheaper model now.

"For once I agree with you"

For once? I am full of wisdom, you should pay more attention ;)

RE: No
By aliasfox on 10/23/2012 11:32:34 AM , Rating: 2
"For once I agree with you"

For once? I am full of wisdom, you should pay more attention ;)

I happen to appreciate my iPhone4 taking up less space in my pocket, and considering it's nowhere near a 'primary' computing device for me, I'm happy with the level of functionality/reliability/screen size provided by it. Podcasting, music, tracking my running, texting, and the very occasional surfing when I'm on the john covers about 99% of my smartphone use ;-)

RE: No
By TweakEn on 10/23/2012 5:02:53 PM , Rating: 2
No, it's unnecessary. You can't see those pixels, no one holds their device that close. Battery life is more of a concern and should be the primary goal right now of all manufacturers. You're beating a dead horse when you go past 250 ppi, trust me. You wanna make a brighter display so you can see it in sunlight? fine. You want to make it use less power? Great. You wanna make it so you can't see the pixels when you hold it 2" in front of your face instead of 3"? WTF? Who cares?

RE: No
By testerguy on 10/24/2012 5:23:23 AM , Rating: 2
Wow, retro - one of the first comments of yours I've ever agreed with :-)

RE: No
By andre-bch on 10/21/2012 7:40:40 PM , Rating: 2
Windows 8 scales pretty well. If it doesn't, then it's a video driver issue, linked with identifying correct EDID values.

RE: No
By TakinYourPoints on 10/21/2012 7:54:01 PM , Rating: 1
It isn't 100% there yet, but no desktop OS is.

RE: No
By andre-bch on 10/21/2012 8:39:30 PM , Rating: 2
As I said, it has to be a driver issue.

While desktop can be scaled manually, start screen and metro apps can't. They rely solely on EDID.

I agree that we are not exactly there yet, but I'm sure MS will sort things out in the coming months. After all, windows 8 isn't even available in retail.

RE: No
By TakinYourPoints on 10/21/2012 10:43:48 PM , Rating: 1
Manually scaling to 125% or 150% on the desktop is not a good solution. Text rendering isn't accurate and in many cases it throws off the proportions and layouts of application UIs.

Again, going to higher res displays means that we either need resolution independence or 2x graphical assets and fonts in order to look correct with increased pixel density. There appears to be no solution in sight but hopefully this gets rolled into a service pack. I would be shocked if it wasn't addressed by Windows 9.

RE: No
By andre-bch on 10/22/2012 4:32:43 AM , Rating: 2
Actually software developers are to blame here.

MS can't do anything about a badly coded program.

Windows does in fact do some automatic scaling for desktop. It was even mentioned in the article you provided:

"By default, the operating system applies a 125% scaling setting on the Zenbook Prime."

Metro is another matter entirely. Metro apps are resolution independent. Now it comes down to drivers to detect the correct display size/DPI.

RE: No
By Moishe on 10/23/2012 11:55:35 AM , Rating: 2
I agree, kind of.

Software devs need to take DPI into consideration. They're not, so MS is trying to provide decent work-arounds.

Like other posts have said, Apple uses a very controlled ecosystem to handle their high DPI screen by having exact resolutions that are easy to handle (4x is easy to scale).

That being said, MS should have put the new UI on a dozen different types of devices and fixed every single issue. The DPI issue should have been noticed and fixed by building a robust DPI into Windows. They're going to need it more and more and it's a worthwhile investment.

RE: No
By cbf on 10/22/2012 4:40:19 PM , Rating: 2
That Techreport article is almost entirely focused on web pages that don't scale properly. That isn't a Windows 8 problem -- that's a problem with web designers and web design tools that do pixel layout. This issue is present across all operating systems. There are plenty of pages, which is viewed at 1:1 pixel resolution on an iPad 3, would render entirely in a postage-stamp sized space in the upper left corner of the screen (well, OK, maybe postcard-sized space).

Unfortunately, this is all too common -- specifying width and height in pixels (for tables, divs, etc.) instead of percent, inches, ems, cms, etc.

Of course, it's hard to get away from pixels when using bitmaps, but it can be done if web designers were willing to do the work (use SVG, or provide at least 3 sizes of bitmaps adjusted according to the PPI).

yea, and?
By Nortel on 10/21/12, Rating: -1
RE: yea, and?
By Decom on 10/21/2012 2:56:15 PM , Rating: 2
Now Google is going to have an announcement about a tablet that may not be out for months? It's hard to get excited about this when they are so late to the plate.

That's a cop out if ever heard one, analyze the facts and you're way off the mark.
There have been pretty decent if not iPad matching 10" tablets on the market for a couple of years. Granted the first few iterations of Android 10" tablets were not on a par with Apple, however there are now some excellent 10" products out there, Asus's Transformer line and both Samsung's Tab and Note 10.1 spring to mind.

Google mainly provide the software, however as we've recently seen they are dipping their toe into the Hardware end of things, even more so now with the likes of the Nexus 7 and this new 10" device.

It's also funny when you think about it, Apple killed with the iPad, a 10" device, but lost out huge in the 7" arena to both Amazon and Google, now months later they are releasing a 7" device......"It's hard to get excited about this when they are so late to the plate"

For all those who want greater choice, which will inevitably lead to greater products I say let the good times roll.

RE: yea, and?
By Cheesew1z69 on 10/22/2012 1:54:44 PM , Rating: 2
That's a cop out if ever heard one, analyze the facts and you're way off the mark.
Of course, look who you are responding too.

RE: yea, and?
By evo slevven on 10/21/2012 2:58:41 PM , Rating: 3
Should I put the devil's advocate post and simply say that's much like saying the iPhone is late to the game with the bigger screen and LTE coverage as well by over a year now?

I can cherry~picky what each competitor is late to the game to as well as the next person but I'd have to place myself in the camp that doesn't care as much about retina and more about the ecosystem and a viable map app actually.

RE: yea, and?
By testerguy on 10/24/2012 5:27:11 AM , Rating: 2
The difference is, the iPhone 4S (which is well over a year old now) still has a faster GPU than every one of those phones you would be referring to in America. I think the only exception now is the just-released Note.

The tablets on Android had worse performance, fewer apps, inferior battery life AND lower resolution. They basically offered nothing above and beyond. The same cannot be said for the iPhone.

RE: yea, and?
By jimbojimbo on 10/21/2012 3:35:18 PM , Rating: 2
The iPad mini is coming out how many years after the first 7" Androids came out? Now who's really late to the game. In fact I would even say it's better to be late than never showing up at all... like NFC, wireless charging, true multitasking, gorilla glass, microSD, widgets.

RE: yea, and?
By retrospooty on 10/22/2012 8:54:52 AM , Rating: 2
HEre, add some more stuff to the Apple is late to teh game comment...

Nortel, your post is rediculous as usual.

- Notifications
- Over the air updates
- Widgets
- Free turn by turn navigation
- Social network integration
- Multitasking
- Drop Down Notifications
- Opening apps from the lock screen
- Custom Wallpapers
- Panoramic photos

RE: yea, and?
By jbwhite99 on 10/22/2012 1:09:56 PM , Rating: 3
I'd ask to see Apple's roadmap, but given the quality of iOS Maps, who knows where it will lead to. 24" tablets and 7" notebooks, given the latest fiasco.

RE: yea, and?
By retrospooty on 10/22/2012 2:14:02 PM , Rating: 2
"I'd ask to see Apple's roadmap, but given the quality of iOS Maps, who knows where it will lead to."

+1 LOL

RE: yea, and?
By testerguy on 10/24/2012 5:39:17 AM , Rating: 2
All of this list are minor tweaks to software which aren't in any way as significant as core features like resolution, performance, battery life, quality, or apps.

Panoramic Photos has been available via apps on iOS for at least as long as Android.

Custom wallpapers, widgets are pretty much useless gimmicks which waste battery life.

Over the air updates, social network integration, opening apps from the lock screen, notifications, notification centre are all things for which the functionality existed previously, you could easily achieve anything you wanted to. All of these just add very minor conveniences to the process. Not at all significant.

Multitasking has existed for a very long time on iOS, and actually Android is late to the party because its own implementation of multitasking was caning battery life. They have now come around to the iOS 'freeze state' method of multitasking. So that one iOS had first.

Out of your list, I think free turn by turn navigation is the only relevant one, and in turn shows why Apple made the correct choice to ditch Google Maps so they could offer their customers the navigation.

The list of things which came later on Android would be hundreds and hundreds of items long, but it would take a complete fanboy to keep maintaining a list like that.

RE: yea, and?
By testerguy on 10/24/2012 5:32:56 AM , Rating: 2
True multitasking? Doesn't Android now use the same model that iOS does, to conserve battery life?

Gorilla Glass only exists in any phone because Apple decided to rescue the company and employ them to manufacturer the glass for the iPhone.

MicroSD you can buy a $2 adapter to plug in to your iPhone/iPad.

NFC doesn't really have any widespread adoption yet (and the fact that the iPhone doesn't have it will lead to a proliferation of alternatives).

Wireless charging is a useless gimmick, there's no benefit to it that you cant achieve with a normal charger.

Widgets, if you're desperate for them, jailbreak.

The iPad Mini is a variation on the theme for Apple, it's simply a different screen size. The Android market hasn't produced a single tablet yet which can match basically any aspect of the iPad. They are all slower, they all have inferior battery life, they all have lower resolutions. Combine that with the fact they all have a massively inferior app store and lots of them have quality issues, and you see who is truly behind.

RE: yea, and?
By liem107 on 10/24/2012 9:58:17 AM , Rating: 2
Corning existed for more than a century long before Apple and steve jobs were born. And saying apple "saved" corning as if it were by charity is absolutely ludicrous. Apple needed gorilla glass which corning could manufacture to get a good quality glass. It was just a good business opportunity for Corning. But on the other hand you seem to forget that Microsoft literally saved Apple from oblivion during its darkest hours and gave Apple charity when they begged for money to survive.

The tablet market a year from now
By Tony Swash on 10/21/12, Rating: -1
RE: The tablet market a year from now
By ritualm on 10/21/2012 7:37:15 PM , Rating: 1
Android - 50%+. Your biggest mistake is not taking China - where no Google products/services are allowed to operate - into account.

Microsoft - closer to 20%. It's not the same straitjacketed Microsoft from the previous decade. Proof? It's already running into tensions with the EU.

Apple - the rest, under 30%.

Also lrn2spell, tardpipe.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By Nortel on 10/21/2012 8:22:35 PM , Rating: 2
There is no way MS is going to garner 20% of the market. I haven't heard a single good comment about windows 8 and their app support is seriously lacking. Apple will continue to hold 60%... you are completely forgetting about the ipad mini taking a huge chunk of the small tablet market share away from competitors.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By ritualm on 10/21/2012 8:48:14 PM , Rating: 1
There is no way MS is going to garner 20% of the market.

That's what you think.

The Microsoft of your dreams would have continued to abide by the terms of its antitrust settlement with the EU. Er no, the reverse of that happened very recently - the same 'sheepish' MS ran into loggerheads with the EU over browser choices.

Apple won't hold 60%. Android will. Except you Apple fanboys won't count China's representation of Android's tablet market share simply because China uses a forked version of Android with its own app markets, and thus does not - in your iBiased opinion - count towards the world total.

Bring it, kid.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By Nortel on 10/21/2012 10:07:21 PM , Rating: 3
Baidu 'illegally' forked Android and pumps out an untrackable number of different phones which are copies of other phones like the Nokia 920. These forked Android phones are simply garbage, I can't believe you would defend them just to get Android numbers up. I'm sure you like to count Kindle's as Android too. MS won't get the market share simply because they are a very uncool brand. Given the choice between an Android tablet, Apple or MS, nobody is going to be choosing MS.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By ritualm on 10/21/2012 10:27:31 PM , Rating: 1
Baidu 'illegally' forked Android and pumps out an untrackable number of different phones which are copies of other phones like the Nokia 920. These forked Android phones are simply garbage, I can't believe you would defend them just to get Android numbers up. I'm sure you like to count Kindle's as Android too. MS won't get the market share simply because they are a very uncool brand. Given the choice between an Android tablet, Apple or MS, nobody is going to be choosing MS.

Aww shucks, Nortel is mad now.

As ex-Prez George W. Bush bragged: Mission Accomplished.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By testerguy on 10/24/2012 5:42:53 AM , Rating: 2
Some really lofty ambitions you must have in life if your ambition is to make an incorrect claim that you made someone on the internet mad...

By Cheesew1z69 on 10/24/2012 6:49:21 PM , Rating: 2
Some really lofty ambitions you must have in your life to come on forums and defend Apple like you do...

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By StevoLincolnite on 10/21/2012 10:48:19 PM , Rating: 2
Given the choice between an Android tablet, Apple or MS, nobody is going to be choosing MS.

See. You have already lost and failed.

I intend to get a Windows 8 Tablet.

Windows 8 is fantastic on tablets, not so much on a Desktop PC in my opinion. I had a convertible tablet running with Windows 7 then Windows 8 for the last several years and it's been a great experience. - I could even do real work.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By andrewaggb on 10/22/2012 11:53:26 AM , Rating: 2
I'm eagerly awaiting reviews of windows 8 hardware. I plan to get a surface pro or equivalent (unless the battery life/heat is terrible) and I know other people who do as well. Even if the first gen products aren't the ones to get, once haswell is out, it should be sweet.

With windows 8 you're getting a real os. You know, multi-user, supports usb devices and cameras, can print, use ms office, join a domain, blah blah. That stuff still has value to me. And yes, it can still play angry birds.

An intel haswell tablet should be able to run pc steam games at decent speed (with an xbox controller) - and that is something you can't do on iOS or Android either.

Sure it might flop, but is has potential to be much better than iOS or Android. Way too soon to say 'nobody' is going to choose MS.

Personally I think the first year of windows 8 will be bad for MS and friends. Lots of gimmicky products, young ARM ecosystem without many apps, intels good stuff (like haswell and the new atom) won't be available, etc. But my guess is right around next summer/fall we'll have good hardware and the first service pack for the OS and it'll start looking really good.

By jbwhite99 on 10/22/2012 1:08:05 PM , Rating: 2
Just make sure you don't get a tablet with Windows RT on it, whatever you do. Make sure it runs full Windows 8, like the ThinkPad Tablet 2.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By xti on 10/22/2012 8:51:06 AM , Rating: 2
i made the switch to android...and they do not have as strong of an app library compared to apples. hopefully itll get there, but we gotta stop drinking the kool aid.

I always here the argument of "there is something close to it"...yeah yeah. Its like still believing that office isnt vital when openOffice is out there...its not the same.

By andrewaggb on 10/22/2012 11:57:10 AM , Rating: 2
Yep. Same experience, I have some apple and android gear. With the exception of the really big name apps that are available on both, many of the 'alternatives' are way worse or don't exist. Google play is getting there but it's not there yet.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By tayb on 10/21/2012 9:58:02 PM , Rating: 3
Microsoft at 20%? Seriously? Apple has sold over 83 million iPad's thus far. With the launch of the iPad Mini next week I would not be shocked to see quarter 4 sales numbers of 20-30 million. Apple and Google already have existing products out there. For Microsoft to take 20% of the tablet market by next year they would need to ship more tablets in the next 12 months than Apple did in the last 3 years combined. I would be shocked if Microsoft could even grab 5%.

Android numbers might be feasible but I worry that it'll happen primarily with these weak/underpowered Kindle Fire type tablets. Kindle Fire sales aren't helping convincing developers to write Android tablet apps.

As for Apple, it depends on how they price the iPad Mini.

By TakinYourPoints on 10/22/2012 1:35:36 AM , Rating: 2
Android numbers might be feasible but I worry that it'll happen primarily with these weak/underpowered Kindle Fire type tablets. Kindle Fire sales aren't helping convincing developers to write Android tablet apps.

That's really the niche Android tablets have, cheap and low powered devices. If an A5 or A6 equipped iPad mini comes out with access to the entire iOS app ecosystem, even at a $50 premium, that low end market is theirs to own.

Right now Apple's dominance is akin to Microsoft's on the desktop. The iPad is the defacto tablet platform due to developer support and how well supported the platform is by Apple. Developer support for Android tablets is anemic and hardware/OS support varies greatly depending on who you buy it from. Superior hardware is icing on the cake.

As you said, by how much they own the low end market is totally dependent on the price.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By seraphim1982 on 10/22/2012 2:26:36 AM , Rating: 3
Just the corporate sector, which requires a MS-backend system have been waiting for a real corporate tablet device.
I would say easily 30%-40% within 2 years.

Most IT directors pull their hair out with IPAD and droid security and OS customization, MS will have a huge advantage over them in these particular functions.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By Nortel on 10/22/2012 8:59:09 AM , Rating: 2
Seriously, what? Financial institutions, governments, etc... run IBM ZOS (mainframe), Sun Solaris (UNIX), etc... for their servers and utilize MS for a FRONTEND system. What kind of a serious organization is going to run MS server vs UNIX? iOS is UNIX and MANY large companies like Deutsche Bank have already changed over from Blackberries to iPhones running GOOD. There is NO reason the iPad cannot be used in a corporate setting vs some random MS tablet. You also forget that Apple is already in version 6 of their iOS which makes it considerably more secure then beta testing the MS tablet offering.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By retrospooty on 10/22/2012 9:13:49 AM , Rating: 2
No dingy, everyone at 99% of every desk in every company on planet Earth runs Windows. The actual OS that businesses use for the actual apps that employees use.

Even the factories that build Macs and iPhones run 100% on PC's. From planning to purchasing to incoming logistics to inventory to shop floor to faulure analysys to shipping to logistics to reverse logistic to accounting... All runs on Windows PC's.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By Nortel on 10/22/2012 10:02:32 AM , Rating: 2
The SAME apps that run on person X's desk computer running Windows XP will only run on the much more expensive Intel CPU version, not the cheaper ARM offering... Not to even mention the obvious fact that tablet computing serves no real purpose for a large majority of businesses.

RE: The tablet market a year from now
By retrospooty on 10/22/2012 10:21:34 AM , Rating: 2
"The SAME apps that run on person X's desk computer running Windows XP will only run on the much more expensive Intel CPU version, not the cheaper ARM offering."

Yes, we are talking about the x86 version in the workplace of course.

"tablet computing serves no real purpose for a large majority of businesses."

People want the portability and ease of tablets. IT depts are fighting it because apps and security doesnt exist. An x86 tablet briges that gap. Most companies dont really "nickel and dime" IT purchases. they buy what they need to keep their users happy (and shut them up).

But whatever. I know you arent in IT by your clueless answers, so anything you say on the subject is pure crap.

By TakinYourPoints on 10/22/2012 4:16:39 PM , Rating: 2
Apps and security do exist on the iOS side.

Security is actually a huge reason why the iPad is being deployed in enterprise. It fully supports ActiveSync protocols and is secure for a device at rest. iOS and Blackberry are very close in terms of security. Android supports less than half and is highly insecure, which is why you don't see them being deployed (phone or tablet) except for those in non-critical positions. In some ways iOS is even more secure than traditional platforms given that malware is virtually non-existent since applications are vetted before being made available.

Now, an X86 tablet obviously has an edge on applications since they are made to be used with a mouse and keyboard, but that sort of device has far more crossover with a laptop than an ARM tablet.

By ritualm on 10/22/2012 6:53:18 PM , Rating: 2
There is NO reason the iPad cannot be used in a corporate setting vs some random MS tablet.

Group Policy. Nothing in OS X / iOS is as good as Windows here, period.

Version number does nothing to hide the plain fact that Apple is extremely slow in rolling out security fixes and patches. Flashhack, for example, took SIX WEEKS. Oracle fixed that Java vulnerability mere days after it was found.

Stop licking Tony Swash's taint and get a grip.

"This week I got an iPhone. This weekend I got four chargers so I can keep it charged everywhere I go and a land line so I can actually make phone calls." -- Facebook CEO Mark Zuckerberg

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