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Nearly one in every three Xbox 360 consoles fail, according to retailer reports

By several metrics, the Xbox 360 is the most successful console so far of this generation. Despite the startling pace of the Wii, the Xbox 360 still has the most consoles sold worldwide and the longest list of games and exclusives. For a gamer looking for online-enabled high-definition gaming today, the Xbox 360 appears to satisfy those needs.

One often overlooked factor when considering a console purchase is reliability, an area that is apparently where the Xbox 360 falls short. Anecdotal evidence is heavily pointing to Microsoft’s latest console as being significantly more prone to failure than what consumers are accustomed to.

Microsoft has said before that its Xbox 360 failure rate falls within three to five percent, what it believes to be well within industry standards. Internet reports from Xbox 360 owners, however, suggest that the failure rate is much higher than that.

In an effort to gain a more accurate picture of Xbox 360 failure rate, DailyTech decided to poll retail outlets that sell the Xbox 360 and with it the option to purchase an in-store extended warranty. Out of all Xbox 360 extended warranties sold, we wanted to know how many were claimed by consumers with defective consoles, thus giving us a more accurate failures percentage.

After contacting several retailers from various regions in North America, the responses were unanimous: the Xbox 360 is the least reliable gaming console in recent history. Current EB Games or GameStop employees who offered information did so under strict anonymity, as it is against company policy to reveal such information to the public. Furthermore, our sources confirmed that EB Games revised its Canadian warranty policies during early 2007 for consoles solely due to the failure rate of the Xbox 360.

EB Games held conference calls for its Canadian stores informing them of the new policy changes and revealing alarming failure rates of the Xbox 360. “The real numbers were between 30 to 33 percent,” said former EB Games employee Matthieu G., adding that failure rate was even greater for launch consoles. “We had 35 Xbox 360s at launch I know more than half of them broke within the first six months (red lights or making circles under the game discs). Two of them were dead on arrival.”

Interestingly, Microsoft has acknowledged that the initial batch of Xbox 360 consoles made during the launch window suffer from below average reliability. In response to an overwhelming defect rate of launch consoles, Microsoft agreed to repair all machines manufactured in 2005 free of charge, and issue a refund for those who already paid for repairs of launch units up until January 1, 2006.

The three flashing red lights – commonly referred to in gaming communities as the “Red Ring of Death” – is a sign of an Xbox 360 hardware failure. The sign is apparently common enough that Microsoft has added an option to its 1-800-4MY-XBOX support line that names “three flashing red lights” specifically.

As a result of the high failure rate of the Xbox 360, EB Games corporate nearly doubled the prices of its one-year, over-the-counter warranty. While the previous warranty would give a customer a brand new console in exchange for the broken one, the new policy now states that the customer will receive a refurbished console instead. The move was made because it was becoming too costly for the retailer to give the customer a brand-new machine, which still carries a store cost close to the MSRP. The price increase and policy change wasn’t exclusive to only the Xbox 360, however, as it also applies to all other Sony and Nintendo consoles sold.

The failure rate nearing a third of all Xbox 360 consoles was found at other retailers too. A Best Buy customer service department manager, who wished to remain unnamed, said that failure rates for the console were “between a quarter to a third” of all units sold.

“We see a ton of [Xbox 360s] come back all the time. We strongly push our customers to buy our service plans no matter what they buy, but it is especially important for them with the Xbox 360,” said the manager. “It’s a lucky thing for us that Microsoft extended the factory warranty to one year, because we were having a hell of a time dealing with the launch units. Now we don’t have to deal with those broken [Xbox 360s] until their second year, for those who have purchased the two year plans.”

In late 2006, Microsoft boosted the warranty of all Xbox 360 consoles to one year, up from 90-days previously. For gamers who are out of warranty, however, a replacement or repair will cost Xbox 360 customers $140.

When compared against other systems, the Xbox 360 is failing at higher rates than its current competitors and predecessors. Former EB Games worker Matthieu G. said that the failure rates for all other consoles were not high enough for the retailer to consider revising its policies, and guesses that most other console systems have a failure rate of less than one percent, including the PlayStation 3. Another EB Games manager, when asked if the store warranty was worth it, conceded that in the hundreds of Wii units sold at that location thus far, zero have come back as defective.

Despite the overwhelming evidence that the Xbox 360 is a relatively unreliable games machine, Microsoft officials refuse to comment on its failure rate. Peter Moore, VP of Microsoft’s entertainment division, said to the Mercury News, “I can’t comment on failure rates, because it’s just not something  – it’s a moving target. What this consumer should worry about is the way that we’ve treated him. Y’know, things break, and if we’ve treated him well and fixed his problem, that’s something that we’re focused on right now. I’m not going to comment on individual failure rates because I’m shipping in 36 countries and it’s a complex business.”

Similar questions regarding the Xbox 360 hardware met with the man responsible for the design of the console, Todd Holmdahl. He too sidestepped the issue with the Mercury News, saying, “I would say we don’t have a high defect rate. The vast majority of people are really excited about their product, and that we are targeting profitability for next year.”

Asked differently about whether or not the Xbox 360 falls into the ‘normal’ three to five percent return rate, Holmdahl said, “We don’t disclose the actual number,” and “We don’t comment on that.”

No piece of technology, no matter how well designed, should be expected to completely free of failure. The key metric is whether or not a product falls within industry standards of acceptable failure rates – and from findings based off retailer-supported warranty returns, the actual rate of failures could be six to ten times greater than what Microsoft is letting on.

Regardless of what the actual failure rate is, there is consumer perception that the Xbox 360 is a less reliable machine than its competitors. That fact alone should encourage Microsoft to do more than just avoid all comments on failures and only preach on the wonderful experience of its consumer base.

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Curious
By Valtiel on 7/2/2007 9:04:02 AM , Rating: 5
Excellent piece of investigative journalism.

I'm curious of what Microsoft would say when confronted with these results. Probably nothing fresh from the cryptic side-stepping you've already quoted from them.

Though the difference between the 360 and other consoles is big enough not to blur comparisons, it's kind of a shame that the cited results about the PS3 and Wii aren't as elaborate. It'd be interesting to check out harder figures on those.




RE: Curious
By Marcus Yam on 7/2/2007 9:12:09 AM , Rating: 5
There wasn't as much data on the PS3 or Wii, but even if there was, it would be unfair to compare systems that have been on the market a year less than the Xbox 360.

The Xbox 360 has been around longer, and thus you would expect a larger pile of broken machines. In fact, that's probably true of anything. (To steal a like from Fight Club, on a long enough timeline, the survival rate for everything drops to zero.)

The fact here is that regardless of how the PS3 and Wii are doing, a 33 percent failure rate is unacceptable for any product.


RE: Curious
By JoeBanana on 7/2/2007 10:02:54 AM , Rating: 2
You say it's got tons of consoles out there so more should broke. It's relative estimate. One third of all. And the fact is they should improve the reliability in the meanwhile. There is no data in media on PS3 and Wii because people who bought Xbox are complaining and that got the media attention.


RE: Curious
By othercents on 7/2/2007 10:33:35 AM , Rating: 3
Having complaints on the Xbox360 does not keep PS3 and Wii users from complaining if they have a problem. I have seen a few reviews where there were cases where Wiis were DOA or broke within the first month, but nothing in mass like the Xbox360.

The only difference right now is all the PS3s and Wiis are under manufacturer warranty. The users can quickly send the console back and get a new console from the manufacture. However a good portion of Xbox360s are not under warranty anymore and they are either relying on extended warranties or having to pay to get them fixed. This definitely causes people to voice their opinions more often.

Other


RE: Curious
By hadifa on 7/2/2007 9:05:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You say it's got tons of consoles out there so more should broke. It's relative estimate. One third of all.


No, He says 360s were around for longer and so there is a higher chance of failure and thus the quote from Fight Club.


RE: Curious
By carl0ski on 7/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: Curious
By XesBOX on 7/4/2007 5:17:02 PM , Rating: 1
Nice work on that math Einstein, but we're not talking about an average over total years. We're talking about what's happening RIGHT NOW, and what the past few months have looked like in relation to the average failure rates of other products over the same time frame. Here, I'll help you with something more basic:

1000 Units are sold.. Over the course of a month, 50 break, and another 1000 are sold. Over the course of the next month, 100 break; 50 from the first batch, 50 from the second. The month after that, 150 break, 50 from the first, 50 from the second, 50 from the third. See where I'm going here?

If I remember right, system failure rates are calculated by the total number of devices divided by the number of returns in that time frame, and not total failures (as you've given in your example.)

Additionally, if Toshiba, LG, and Samsung only sold a number of their products equal to the 360's to date there wouldn't be a spread. I mean, c'mon, they don't even compare when speaking about world-wide failure rates. Not only that but the technology of TV's and DVD players is slightly less complicated. I mean, how many of these hardware failures is on account of the DVD player in the 360? And don't think the rings have anything to do with defective hardware, it's just a shitty player (or possibly a shitty factory somewhere in the Himalaya's.)


RE: Curious
By crystal clear on 7/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: Curious
By Oregonian2 on 7/2/2007 2:04:57 PM , Rating: 2
Sigh... don't you think that Microsoft knows this and is doing their damnest to fix it? Every return a company gets is money down the toilet, their money. Think they don't care about money? Even more so for a product that depends upon secondary (game) sales to get any profit. They want to have zero returns if they can swing it and keep the sales price competitive. For warranty returns the costs are immediate and significant, for post-warranty the costs are indirect.

IOW - they knew it's a serious problem before anybody else, and are undoubtedly trying to fix things ASAP. Now, of course they'd be trying to minimize impact on sales so they'd be trying to fix things as quietly as they can. Which is the "problem" in articles like this one.

P.S. - And note that the store's policy changed for the PS3 and Nintendo stuff too, not just the 360.


RE: Curious
By hozelda on 7/4/2007 9:57:12 AM , Rating: 1
>> Think they don't care about money? Even more so for a product that depends upon secondary (game) sales to get any profit.

I don't really disagree with what you said; however, Microsoft REALLY cares about money. They have a history of throwing uncooked products out the door to take marketshare away from competitors, which is the first step in eliminating competition, which provides a direct expressway to monopoly control over partners and suppliers of games and over customers, which means control over pricing. There is a real advantage to them with this situation (aside from the disadvantages to them). That is that many people that get hooked on the games or think it is too late to turn back or have some sort of loyalty to Microsoft and want to give them "one more chance" will be funding MS's short-sightedness. You also have Windows and Microsoft Office users (among others) funding the XBox alpha product delivery. People that have dollars to spend will get MS through this difficult time as they hurl their money in Microsoft's direction over and over. If XBox are breaking this fast, expect to continue upgrading XBox's for years into the future. Ka-ching.

>> P.S. - And note that the store's policy changed for the PS3 and Nintendo stuff too, not just the 360.

It should be clear that these two other game systems are no where as unreliable as the XBox, so why would this be done then? Here is my guess:

This retailer is counting on XBox games sales more than on sales from other consoles (maybe they even get a larger cut from XBox sales or maybe they don't get a good return policy on the games). If they only raise the insurance cost on XBox's it will drive people away and help degrade the brand. This will directly affect the bottom line if they can't move the XBox games inventory as expected.

And I would not be surprised to find out that Microsoft actually has contract terms that forbid the retailers from offering a discriminating extended service contract for the XBox. This may not be the case, but I wouldn't be surprised. Then again, with MS not having monopoly control here, they might have to fall back to carrot offerings with little stick.


RE: Curious
By alifbaa on 7/2/2007 12:07:27 PM , Rating: 2
Mr. Yam, I just wanted to thank you for doing this work. It's really surprising to me that the mainstream media hasn't looked into this more given how ubiquitous the 360 is within the US. I've been waiting on the 360 to get its reliability issues figured out since it was first introduced. Based on your reporting, it looks like I need to continue waiting.

At this rate, the PS3 is looking better and better. Maybe they'll make good on the rumors and reduce the price soon!

Thanks again.


RE: Curious
By encryptkeeper on 7/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: Curious
By geddarkstorm on 7/3/2007 3:33:02 PM , Rating: 2
Since this was measured using returns on retailer warranties, then what consoles that went through Microsoft were not captured in the total. Which means this is a random sample of the population and therefore representative (what's true for the retailers, we can reasonably assume, is true for any direct interactions with Microsoft. This is, of course, one of the basic assumptions of all statistics). The time frame of these failures are within the context of the warranty spans. Therefore, comparing the same warranty spans across different products is the only true apples to apples comparison you can do. If the retailers say they are getting loads of Xbox's back and not so many Wii's or PS3's within the same warranty time span, then that is the raw observed data around which all hypotheses and deductions must be made (assuming the data is factual, which we have no reason to doubt).

Since this is what the retailers are saying based on people who bought warranties (and many I'm sure didn't), then it seems to be an incredibly big issue that needs to be addressed. Microsoft itself sends back refurbished units, so there wouldn't be 2 million units sitting around in a dump somewhere, although there could very well be. There's no way for us to really know what's going on if Microsoft keeps all the data hidden.

I suppose that's another thing--if the failures were within industry standards, wouldn't Microsoft release its data to prove that and dispel these "myths" which are hurting its profits? Because it's unwilling to give out such innocuous data suggests strongly that the failure rates are indeed outside of industry standards.


RE: Curious
By Christopher1 on 7/2/2007 10:02:32 PM , Rating: 3
Excuse me, but even for a brand-new technology product..... 33% is a *bleeping* high failure rate, at best..... AT BEST!

No product that was supposedly tested for as long as the XBox360 by Microsoft should have that high of a rate of failure. I could understand 3-5%.... that is median for a new product on the market (even Packard Bell, the crap-line of PC's, only had a 10% failure rate with new models).


RE: Curious
By pammy ut on 7/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: Curious
By Marcus Yam on 7/3/2007 12:12:35 AM , Rating: 5
My sources may be anonymous to you, but they aren't to me. The fact is that, while I would have loved to attached names and mugshots to everyone who volunteered information to me, it would have very likely gotten them fired.

I would strongly admire someone who would put their job on the line in an effort to expose the truth, but I'm not going to hold it against anyone who is just trying to make a living.


RE: Curious
By tarrbot on 7/4/2007 2:21:34 AM , Rating: 1
The issue is not so much your sources but more your methodology and process.

From what I can tell you've done no better than call up every Wendy's and ask them what's the best selling burger they have rather than get the numbers from Wendy's International (the corporate entity). Or put another way, you asked all of the deskside technicians what the problem was as a whole from a network standpoint. Here's a clue: the techs are the wrong people to ask bird's-eye view questions such as this.

Not only has the process been thought out incorrectly, but you fail to acknowledge the methodology you used in gathering this information. No one knows if you attempted to use a predetermined questionairre that the sources responded to or if you made questions up on the fly. No one even knows if you were honest about your profession, let alone your motives.

Now, even all of that is bad enough, but you didn't even hazard a guess at other retailers. What you've effectively done is to take a bunch of biased clerks/salesmen and ask them about their "perceived" notions of reliability. Did you ask for any detailed documentation or otherwise use anything more than someone's recollection? It doesn't appear so.

What's worse is that Daily Tech is running this op-ed piece you wrote on the front page as if it's truly hard-hitting investigative journalism.

And what methodology did you use in determining if a 360 was returned because the product was physically damaged due to incompetence at the store level? What about returns due to the vendor selling an opened system as new? (I use these examples because I personally have seen this happen with 360s).

Oh wait. You didn't do that, did you? You relied upon the word-of-mouth banterings of salesmen and recollections of store managers.

You have no real hard-hitting numbers, do you? Or are you counting the numbers you wrote down from someone else's memory as hard numbers?

I hate to say this Mr. Yam, but this honestly is one of the worst researched articles I've ever seen.

In summation, your article is admittedly anecdotal and yet you've portrayed it as authoritative and well-researched. I believe you know it neither to be well-researched nor authoritative. Your methodology is lackluster and your facts spurious.

It's garbage, sir.


RE: Curious
By Ronson on 7/4/2007 4:46:03 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah it's most probably inaccurate but hey if my friend's X-Box 360, Wii, ipod or iphone blew up in less than a year, do you think I'll buy any that failed?


RE: Curious
By Ronson on 7/4/2007 4:48:47 AM , Rating: 2
Oh yeah on this note, I no longer buy or recommend Western Digital harddisk after mine and 2 of my friend's HDD died in less than 2 years.


RE: Curious
By BMFPitt on 7/4/2007 9:36:55 AM , Rating: 2
I've actually found a good rule of thumb to be: Buy hard drives from the company where they had bad failure rates 6-12 months ago. They will have gotten their act together.

Whatever company seems to be very reliable right now will start getting lazy and their drives will fail a few years down the line.

Seems to be a rotation of sorts between WD, Seagate (used to be IBM), and Maxtor.


RE: Curious
By rushfan2006 on 7/9/2007 10:58:08 AM , Rating: 1
I tend to agree with Tarrbot, though I will not say it was garbage.

Before I go further if anyone looking for a biased slant for any console, you should know I play no consoles anymore, I own a Xbox that has done little more than collected dust in between the times when my nephews visit (about 3-4 times a year) then they'll play it.

I'm a PC gamer, have been and will always be - until/unless they suddenly stop making PC games or PC gaming hardware.

Bottomline : I don't give a shit which console has the black eye or not.

Anyway, I'm skeptical. And to just take the article posted as full fact and nothing but would be a bit ridiculous to me and a tad naive.

The most credible parts to me are the few spots where the post was named from another magazine and/or website article and the link was provided.

Beyond that how does anyone know its not just some whipped up article from one person's viewpoint. where's the reassurance its not just in the spirit of a blog, done with a biased slant (either for or against - you pick).

This all said, personally I do think the claim is somewhat valid of xbox 360 failure rates. Because of four people I know personally who owns them two of them had issues since purchase (both since got either repairs done or a replacement), the third person has had no issues with his 360 and the fourth doesn't really play it that much.


RE: Curious
By bob4432 on 7/3/2007 5:02:55 AM , Rating: 2
if you think these numbers are out of line, just go to any 360 scene website and you will find there are a lot of them showing up w/ the rrod.


RE: Curious
By Black Rainbow on 7/4/2007 6:13:14 AM , Rating: 2
You can make this as fair as you want. If you use absolute numbers, the 360 would always be at the bottom. However the fail rate could still be lower than those of others. I would say that the longer a product has been on the market, the lower the failure rate should be, since the manufacturer has had more time to refine its product.


RE: Curious
By chick0n on 7/5/07, Rating: -1
RE: Curious
By cuteshox on 7/5/2007 4:35:18 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I've left my PS3 for over a week now running Folding@home and it's still doing fine.


RE: Curious
By OrSin on 7/2/2007 9:23:28 AM , Rating: 2
I will probably get rated down for this but it seems almost all the failures is not the with the actually hardware, but with how it was assemblied. MS built good hardware then contracteed it out to the lowest bidder and didn't do great qaulity control. I say not great because the Failures are from long term overheating. That not something that spot inspections will find. Not saying let MS off the hook. MS is not a hardware company and it starting to show when they build product that is pushing the edge. They design a good product but they dont the insite into the manufacturing process that others do. MS is still learning what it takes to do all stage of hardware right.


RE: Curious
By Tsuwamono on 7/2/2007 9:35:22 AM , Rating: 2
Thats true with all electronics. They should have contracted a company like Positron, SCI, or Alcatel. They cost boat loads more but i know SCI doesn;t accept anything more then 2% failure from the factory. Just so everyone knows, the reason they are failing is a popcorn effect. There are microfractures in the BGA that when heated popcorn and cause the CPU to lose connectivity to multiple pins which of course means it needs to be reheated to 180 something degrees and reset. Has to be done very slowly or else the other components on the mobo could lose connectivity as well. BGA is the best way to connect a part given that its done right.


RE: Curious
By hrah20 on 7/2/2007 7:47:46 PM , Rating: 2
I Don't think microsoft is going to acknowledge the problem, My xbox360 failed on june 22, send it to service on june 23 and got it back on june 29, they were quite fast, but they didn't fixed my original xbox 360, they send me a replacement, don't know if its a refurbished or a new machine, also don't know if it has the new fan and sink (I'm afraid to open the new 360 and void the warranty) but the difference between my old and this new machine is that it doesn't heat up as fast as the original xbox 360 I had, and that's good.


RE: Curious
By bryanW1995 on 7/2/2007 8:07:45 PM , Rating: 2
that's probably b/c it has the new hsf.


Slightly misleading
By noirsoft on 7/2/2007 9:39:14 AM , Rating: 3
quote:

more than half of them broke within the first six months (red lights or making circles under the game discs).


Given that the "making circles on discs" is a user-inflicted scenario (moving the unit while running) I'm not sure that including those numbers is at all accurate when trying to determine the "failure rate" of the 360. We also don't know how many returns are really defects versus consumer complaining over other mishandlings.

The 360 is certainly more sensitive than other consoles, and probably shouldn't be. But the numbers reported seem no more accurate to me than Microsoft's 3-5% claim.




RE: Slightly misleading
By Marcus Yam on 7/2/2007 9:54:52 AM , Rating: 3
It may not always be user-inflicted.

http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3160212


RE: Slightly misleading
By webdawg77 on 7/2/2007 10:42:23 AM , Rating: 3
It isn't always user inflicted. My GoW disc has the rings on the bottom of it. My 360 hasn't moved in the 1+ year I've had it next to my TV.

This is my 2nd 360. The first RRoD'd after the fall update in 2006. Luckily, it was one of the 360's purchased before 1/1/06, so I got it repaired / replaced for free. They even sent the new one back with a HDD on it after they told me to keep my current HDD.


RE: Slightly misleading
By Lakku on 7/2/2007 10:56:32 AM , Rating: 2
Like was said, my launch 360 was always in the verticle position. I noticed rings on some of my games, like Condemned and Kameo, but it didn't affect the gameplay that much since they don't have heavy continuous disc access. However, my EA sports games are a different matter. Before I had my launch 360 replaced because of disc scratching, I played a lot of Tiger Woods and FIFA 07 and FIFA World Cup. The FIFA games have heavy disc access and I can't get through games a lot of the time now. The new 360 doesn't have the problem but the damage has been done. At any rate, I will probably get a new 360 in the next few months as the die shrinks happen and so I can get one of the quieter disc drives.


RE: Slightly misleading
By MeTaedet on 7/2/2007 10:45:17 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Given that the "making circles on discs" is a user-inflicted scenario (moving the unit while running) I'm not sure that including those numbers is at all accurate when trying to determine the "failure rate" of the 360. We also don't know how many returns are really defects versus consumer complaining over other mishandlings.


I believe that that would constitute hardware failure since Microsoft really ought to have foreseen that people would attempt to move their consoles while turned on. One really must take into account all the ways in which a product is likely to be used by the consumer and build it in such a way that it should be able to withstand those things. Right? Do you believe that the end user should be intelligent enough to know that a console should only be repositioned when turned off? I suggest that it is intelligence that leads a user to suppose that the developers of the XBox360 would be sagacious and prescient enough to know that he would likely move the console while on and build it in a way that warrants the console against any harm caused by the act of relocation/repositioning. On many separate occasions I have moved my PS2 from the horizontal position to the vertical position and vice versa, not only while the console was on, but even while it was reading a disc, and nothing has ever happened either to the console or any disc - and I imagine that is because the hardware designers at Sony reasoned that I would attempt to do just that.


RE: Slightly misleading
By otispunkmeyer on 7/3/2007 3:36:08 AM , Rating: 2
it definately isnt user inflicted.

my GoW disc was ruined.... all i did was take it from the box, to the dvd tray once and it never left the console. console was in the horizontal position. never moved.

similarly, my TDU, F2, PGR3 etc games discs all have lots of feint scratchings all over their surface. forza 2 disc hasnt actually left the machine (only to be looked at and for me to blow inside the drive when it inexplicably stops working) since i got it and theres thousands of scratches on it.... im suprised it works at all.


90 day warranty?
By shabby on 7/2/2007 10:07:31 AM , Rating: 2
I find it funny that ms first offered the xbox360 with a 90 day warranty. Would any consumer buy a car if it only had a 1 year or shorter warranty? I dont think so.
Its almost like ms knew that the xbox360 would fail so they made the warranty period short and then make you pay for a replacement.




RE: 90 day warranty?
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 7/2/2007 11:02:47 AM , Rating: 3
The warranty was extended to 1 year after initial batches of the consoles showed up to be defective.

Keep in mind most consumer products sold in the USA carry a 30-90 day warranty, after that its up in the air. About half of all electronic companies will warranty parts and labor to 90 days and no further, the other half typically give you 1 year parts and labor. Microsoft went from the 90 day camp to the 1 year camp. This is no different from normal american business practices.


RE: 90 day warranty?
By shabby on 7/2/2007 11:06:54 AM , Rating: 2
Interesting, almost everything up here in canada has 1 year warranty at the minimum. Didnt know the warranrty period was that short on everything in the US.


RE: 90 day warranty?
By deeznuts on 7/2/2007 1:45:14 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know about all that. Some consumer products sold in the USA carry a 30-90 day warranty, not most. Most I would say at least 1 year.


RE: 90 day warranty?
By thestereotype on 7/5/2007 9:08:45 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, it appears the warranty is now three years.

http://www.xbox.com/en-US/support/petermooreletter...


RE: 90 day warranty?
By SniperWulf on 7/2/2007 4:40:20 PM , Rating: 3
I thought they upped the warranty to a year in order to thwart PS3 and Wii sales as it was announced around that time frame


RE: 90 day warranty?
By tarrbot on 7/3/2007 1:10:37 AM , Rating: 1
Hmmm... I seem to recall the PS2 and Xbox1 having 90 day warranties. Does that mean Sony and Microsoft had foreknowledge that the consoles were going to break? No.

It was a standard practice when the 360 came out to have a 90 day warrantee. When Sony and Nintendo announces a 1 year warrantee, Microsoft followed suit.

How is this the wrong thing for them to do?


Bias?
By phattyboombatty on 7/2/2007 9:53:45 AM , Rating: 1
The failure rates reported may very well be correct, but I don't think the retailers that were surveyed are entirely neutral parties. It is well known that electronics retailers make their greatest profits on extended warranties. By circulating the rumor (which may be true) that Xbox 360s are prone to hardware failures, they are indirectly improving their bottom line. A sales associate can convince a buyer to purchase the extended warranty by telling the costumer that Xbox 360s have a high chance of failure. The customer will be like "oh yeah I've heard that before. Sure I'll buy the extended warranty."




RE: Bias?
By Marcus Yam on 7/2/2007 10:00:24 AM , Rating: 5
Yes, indeed all retailers want to sell their extended warranties on products, though the decision from corporate for EB Games to revise its stance is probably a good enough reason to believe that they stopped profiting from those warranties.

It's like any form of insurance. No company would insure you or you car (at least at a reasonable price) if they knew that you had a 33 percent chance of making a claim on the complete cost of your vehicle.

Of course, if the employee gets a pay bonus for selling a warranty, that's a different story... but the point is, retailers should be reluctant to sell a warranty on which they lose money. The change in policy at EB is proof that the scale tipped in favor of the consumer, for once.


RE: Bias?
By walk2k on 7/3/2007 7:00:24 PM , Rating: 2
At the same time EB said the PS3 has had less than 1% failure rate and decided not to revise their policy on extended warranties for that system.


RE: Bias?
By nemrod on 7/2/2007 5:12:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
A sales associate can convince a buyer to purchase the extended warranty by telling the costumer that Xbox 360s have a high chance of failure. The customer will be like "oh yeah I've heard that before. Sure I'll buy the extended warranty."


If a sales associate can convince me that a product has a high chance of failure, i don't buy the product...


RE: Bias?
By bryanW1995 on 7/2/2007 8:17:26 PM , Rating: 2
I used to be a finance mgr at a car dealer, and I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not saying that the author did anything wrong at all because he didn't. He was just interviewing sources for an article. However, those sources do have a very strong incentive to use scare tactics to incluence warranty sales. People are much more likely to buy a warranty out of a fear of loss (losing their $$$ electronic component) than they are out of a desire for gain.


RE: Bias?
By mindless1 on 7/3/2007 5:14:29 PM , Rating: 2
That doesn't account for claims of one product having high failure rates but the others not. They'd like to sell those extended warranties for all consoles, not just 360.


When do they fail?
By SocrPlyr on 7/2/2007 9:16:46 AM , Rating: 2
One important thing that you have not noted was when the devices fail on average. This is an important factor. Do most fail within the first month? If they do that actually would make me feel better about purchasing one of the machines. Most electronics fail either very quickly (first month or two) or when they are rather old, which is why most warranties at stores are a scam. If they fail early they are undoubtedly under the manufacturer's warranty. If they don't then they are most likely to last well past the retailer's warranty. However, does this seem to hold with the Xbox?




RE: When do they fail?
By Marcus Yam on 7/2/2007 9:26:42 AM , Rating: 2
I believe that the failure rate data almost completely based off failures within the first year of ownership.

There are a large number of reports of failures past the one year mark, and that is where a huge number of complaints come in of consumers having to pay Microsoft $140 to get it fixed.

Unfortunately, we don't have a complete picture that includes all that... yet.


RE: When do they fail?
By rcc on 7/2/2007 12:50:04 PM , Rating: 2
Help me out here, I'm feeling a bit slow this morning.

If the failure rate data is "almost completely" based on failures within the first year. How do you end up with a large number of reports from outside that period?


RE: When do they fail?
By geddarkstorm on 7/3/2007 3:44:07 PM , Rating: 2
Complaints from customers over having to pay $140 to get an Xbox fixed. He hasn't tabulated the hard data yet I think was the point (As complaints alone can't be used for such in my opinion).


RE: When do they fail?
By HardwareD00d on 7/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: When do they fail?
By wallijonn on 7/2/2007 1:30:41 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
One important thing that you have not noted was when the devices fail on average. This is an important factor. Do most fail within the first month? ... Most electronics fail either very quickly (first month or two) or when they are rather old... If they fail early they are undoubtedly under the manufacturer's warranty. If they don't then they are most likely to last well past the retailer's warranty.


I tend to find that most equipment is engineered to last as long as the warranty period, that very shortly after the warranty expires it will fail. (I've 'only' repaired about 100 HP monitors - all with the same simple fix of replacing two capacitors. 95% failed outside the warranty period, many times by mere weeks. I had a video card with a 12 month warranty. It died 1 month after the warranty period. Now I buy products based on warranty length - which means that I'll buy that Seagate disc drive with the 5 year warranty over one which only comes with a one year warranty.)


RE: When do they fail?
By vitul on 7/2/2007 3:17:35 PM , Rating: 2
i had mine about 7 months before it broke. But i didnt use it much. I sent it in got another one back and that one lasted about 2 weeks and now they have had that 1 for over a week and still yet to send an email with the tracking # for my return unit. The first time i got an email the following day with a tracking number.

Im just glad an article like this came out and hopefully more do to make this problem known to EVERYONE so they can actually fix it or people stop buying the system.


Somewhere in between
By mediajediHD on 7/2/2007 1:37:20 PM , Rating: 3
I think that the problem is most likely somewhere in between the doom and gloom of the internet forums and the rose colored glasses worn by Microsoft.

Has the XBOX 360 had higher then average defective returns? Most likely. Have the returns been as high as the forum masses want us to believe? Most likely not.

I personally know 10 different people with XBOX 360 consoles. Out of those 10 there have been 2 bad units. One of the guys messed around with modding the console just before it went bad (I'm not blaming modding, I know people who do it and didn't screw up the machine), while the other one went bad after using the HD-DVD drive.

Is 2 out of 10 too high a defect ratio? Yes, definitely. But is it as bad as what some folks are claiming? No.

I know I'll get flamed for this post (I'll be called a Microsoft fanboy, or other nasty things, BTW I own a PS3, and a Wii), but I just wanted to be the voice of reason.

A lot of the negative we hear on the Internet comes from the fan-boys. I've actually met Sony fans who specifically post untrue things about the XBOX 360 just to feel good about themselves (and I'm sure Microsoft folks do the same). I've been called a baby and other such polite things because I own a Wii.

Of course I've also heard that every XBOX 360 that dies causes a fairy to fade away, and that every PS3 sold contributes to global warming, and that Nintendo uses slave Goomba labor in their factories.

The other thing I want to mention is I would not believe any story fed to me from EBGAMES/GAMESTOP about either console.




RE: Somewhere in between
By leexgx on 7/2/2007 5:09:04 PM , Rating: 2
to small an number of users there

PS1 the only problem i had with that console was the Laser buring out after Extended use (used that lovey ps1 alot heh and that was for more then an yr) and that part was user replaceable and does not cost mutch

we should Push other companys like sony playstation corp and wii fail rates i bet you thay will not hold there fail rate back but as others have posted thay are quite new to the market so we need 2 yrs before we can see how reliable thay are

but facts are PS1 and 2 and Any other console has ever been made have not fail this bad (even there Xbox original console was quite reliable)


RE: Somewhere in between
By MeTaedet on 7/2/2007 11:45:59 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I personally know 10 different people with XBOX 360 consoles. Out of those 10 there have been 2 bad units.

Is 2 out of 10 too high a defect ratio? Yes, definitely. But is it as bad as what some folks are claiming? No.


Actually, 2 out of 10 is what one would expect from such a small sample size. If you will notice, taking into consideration the size of the sample, it is very close to the 33% failure rate (which would be 3 out of 10 (or 1 out of 3)). The larger the sample size, the closer the number will come to 33%, if the true failure rate is in the neighbourhood of 33%. I grant that it may not be as great as that, but your small sample isn't proof of anything.

I am afraid that you rather seem to be predisposed to the employment of logical fallacies. You have committed no fewer than two with this post of yours and probably more. In my judgment, the possibilities are as follows:

1. Fallacy of Hasty Generalization / Inductive Fallacy / The Fallacy of Misleading Vividness

2. Fallacy of Anecdotal Evidence.

3. Argument from Personal Incredulity fallacy

4. Argument from Lack of Imagination fallacy

5. Argument from Ignorance fallacy (Argumentum ad Ignorantiam)

6. Fallacy of Wishful Thinking.

quote:
I just wanted to be the voice of reason.


Isn't the very least ingratiating aspect of reality that the things that we most devoutly wish are the very things we seem not to be able to attain? O, this mortal coil!


Impressive
By bkm32 on 7/3/2007 2:07:20 PM , Rating: 3
Even with all of the problems that Sony appears to be having, reliablilty isn't one of them. This is extremely impressive considering that the PS3 is the most advanced videogame console system of all-time. It has an unseasoned "bleeding edge" CPU and disc drive (the Cell and Blu-Ray, respectively), but Sony has managed to keep a fairly high reliabilty rating, relative to MS.

Typically, products at the "bleeding edge" ususally have very high defect rates. This hasn't been the case with the PS3; it has with the X360, though, and that's made of completely COTS components.

Perhaps the issue is that MS is a software company and not a hardware company. Although MS produced the first XBOX, it did not design it. Peter Moore commented on this in reference to possible price drops of the X360 prior to its launch.

At any rate, it appears that the X360 (Pro and Core versions, for now) is a poorly designed console that's great to develop for, sells extremely well, and has excellent Customer Service.

I hope MS can correct its reliability issues before Halo3 hits; otherwise MS is going to find itself with a lot of angry would-be Spartans. Although, that is one sure-fired way to keep server traffic down. Curse you, Ballmer! You're always one step ahead of me!




RE: Impressive
By tigen on 7/3/2007 10:20:54 PM , Rating: 2
You have no basis to claim poor design. The technology level is completely beside the point if the manufacturing is unreliable. The use of lead-free solder was said to be the cause of many 360 failures.

The PS3 is just as much COTS. The 360 has unique CPU and GPU designs, whereas the PS3 is based on a commercial GPU.


RE: Impressive
By bkm32 on 7/4/2007 9:03:34 AM , Rating: 2
Listen, dude. I'm not flamebaiting or anything. I actually want an X360 Elite, but I'm extremely apprehensive about investing $600+ on a system that could very well breakdown after 6 months of just light use. I've never, ever, ever had a console breakdown or stop working, ever, and I've been playing and owning videogame consoles for over 29 years (I still have a working Atari VGS replete with wood-panelling).

I dislike Sony and some of their tactics. I'm a Sega fan at heart, and Sony killed Sega consoles, but I digress. I'm not a Nintendo fan, either. I want an X360 very much and love MS. MS is responsible for single-handedly bringing the PC to everyone's home, and it's an American (happy 4th, BTW) company at the forefront of IT, electronics tech, and business systems.

Just to be clear, design includes not only the chipset, but the architecture, component interfaces, manufacturing , maintainability, reliability, plus any room for improvement of any of the above.

I'm an engineer; I know this. An ideal design is one that allows for the best in all of these areas. A good design takes all of these into account and "compromises" some areas for others but not at the complete loss of any area. A poor design neglects either one or more of these and/or compromises too much of one or more areas for another.

It's obvious (at least anecdotally) that MS compromised cost and schedule for manufacturing, maintainability, and reliability. The logistics and operations tails of a product most often incurs the most cost for the end user. This means that over the life a product, it will cost the end user more to operate (electricity, manpower, time, etc.) and sustain (keep in operation via repairs or scheduled maintainence) than the initial purchase. This holds true for a videogame console, house, automobile, F-22, etc.

This is a fact. Most consumers don't realize this, but most producers do. Therefore, it's in the producers best interest to keep this info off of the consumers "radar", so to speak and to develop products that have the lowest logistics and operational costs (to the consumer) as possible. MS is not doing this. This "poor design" has drawn attention to the X360's logistical and operational consumer costs and have actually proven to be greater than the PS3's. Sure the PS3 has a higher initial cost, but it's lifecycle cost is much lower than the X360's lifecycle cost has proven to be.

That's my basis for claiming "poor design". Oh yeah, that, plus the poor folks that have had to return their X360s more than once, the retailers that are losing money on return policies, and the fact that MS redesigned the Elite and has been sending redesigned X360s back to customers.

BTW, the MS components are all COTS; they are not "bleeding edge", untested components like the Blu-Ray drive and Cell processor. The PS3 is the first implementation (separately or integrated) of these technologies, ever. The X360's CPU and GPU are slight modifications to upgrade 4-5 year-old components. One more thing, I never said anything about the PS3's GPU. Everyone already knows its a COTS component.


My console RMA/repair history
By Demon-Xanth on 7/2/2007 3:47:38 PM , Rating: 4
NES: required contact cleaning after about 3 years
SNES: works prefectly
GC: works perfectly (one I gave to my dad)
Wii: RMA'ed a Wiimote after about two months
GB: Works perfectly
GBA: Works perfectly
GBA SP: Works perfectly
NDS: RMA'ed after 11 months, shut down after about 1 minute of use
Genesis: Power connector became flakey, fixed myself with a quick hit of a soldering iron
DC: Works perfectly
PS: Works perfectly
PS2: RMA's twice before trading it in for a slim PS2
PS2 slim: Was DOA, swapped it out, still working. My dad's failed after 11 months (read head wouldn't track)
NGPC: works perfectly

Total repair costs so far: only shipping




RE: My console RMA/repair history
By leexgx on 7/2/2007 5:11:32 PM , Rating: 2
Wii: RMA'ed a Wiimote after about two months
what that one of the flying motes :) (rist strap brakeing)


Hehe
By Polynikes on 7/2/2007 3:49:06 PM , Rating: 2
*pats his PC and grins*




RE: Hehe
By spartan014 on 7/3/2007 12:40:25 AM , Rating: 2

With you, comrade.. :-)


RE: Hehe
By Ronson on 7/4/2007 5:22:01 AM , Rating: 2
Hehe too. I just spent US$40 replacing a defective 3D card on my PC. Too bad X-Box repairs aren't as cheap or easy.


By kilkennycat on 7/2/2007 2:27:34 PM , Rating: 3
See:-

www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=26211< br />
www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=22725< br />
and the usual stonewall-reply from MS:-

www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=22776< br />
The Xbox360 is one of the worst example of thermal design that I have ever seen.

A pair of high-density heat-sinks (CPU and GPU) with zero user access for cleaning. Access to the internals of the Xbox360 breaks the warranty seal and requires special (or home-made) tools.

A pair of unfiltered fans forcing air-borne crud into these heatsinks. Catch 22 here...few users would ever clean the filters....

Both of these (CPU and GPU) heatsinks jammed right up against the case of the DVD-drive, overheating that drive as the heatsinks fill up with crud and the the air-flow drops off. ( Check the temperature of the play-disk for a 3D-game after it has been in the Xbox360 for a few hours...). DVD-drives, like hard-disks, are mechanically-critical components and do not take well to internal temperatures exceeding 50 degrees C.

The addition of the extra GPU heatsink in the Xbox360 elite is a laugh. When the main heatsinks fill up with crud the forced-air ventilation of that extra heatsink drops to zero.

I suggest that anybody purchasing any version of the Xbox360 buy a 2 or 3 year extended no-questions-immediate-replacement warranty AND be technically-adept enough that the very day either the extended-warranty (or the original MS warranty if no extension) expires they immediately open up the Xbox360 and thoroughly clean the internal air-passages and heat-sinks. Also, I recommend that this process be repeated every six months -- or every 3 months if there are furry or hairy animals present in the household.




By kilkennycat on 7/2/2007 2:30:32 PM , Rating: 2
Remove the <br/> from the URLs listed above if you want to view them. That is a spurious artifact of the DailyTech text editor.


XBOX 360 FAILURE RATE
By xbox360defective on 7/2/2007 10:28:03 PM , Rating: 1
I spoke to my lawyer, about sueing Microsoft.

I have my website www.xbox360defective.com which is getting 20,000 + visitors a month, and I know their is a defect in the 360, but he said, Microsoft would keep you tied up in court for so many years, and cost so much money that nobody is even going to try to sue them.
I guess that is why it has not been reported on the TELEVISION STATIONS.

Anyone else have ideas why this situation is not on television, and nobody has sued Microsoft about the defect rate?

www.xbox360defective.com

Look at the polls, add up the votes, see what the failure rate is among visitors to this site.

Love to hear your experience on my site, to add to all the other reports.




RE: XBOX 360 FAILURE RATE
By tarrbot on 7/3/07, Rating: 0
By xbox360defective on 7/4/2007 1:02:20 AM , Rating: 2
Well, I am not really a lawyer, nor am I versed in how to properly get national or worldwide attention to the problem of the xbox 360 being un reliable.

So, I humbly, and probably ever so ignorantly sew my little seeds of unhappiness with the product all over the world via internet.

I am not sure If I am making a difference, but atleast I feel better at night after I have seen that many people are deciding NOT to purchase an xbox 360 after reading all the reports from consumers.


RE: XBOX 360 FAILURE RATE
By xbox360defective on 7/4/2007 1:03:39 AM , Rating: 2
Well, I am not really a lawyer, nor am I versed in how to properly get national or worldwide attention to the problem of the xbox 360 being un reliable.

So, I humbly, and probably ever so ignorantly sew my little seeds of unhappiness with the product all over the world via internet.

I am not sure If I am making a difference, but atleast I feel better at night after I have seen that many people are deciding NOT to purchase an xbox 360 after reading all the reports from consumers. http://www.xbox360defective.com


RE: XBOX 360 FAILURE RATE
By tarrbot on 7/4/07, Rating: -1
and of course
By yacoub on 7/3/2007 8:29:36 AM , Rating: 2
What those of us who have held off buying one want to know: When is the revised hardware due out? You know, the die shrink, new cooling, etc, that will hopefully solve this issue.

I'll be interested in a 360 when the die-shrink revision comes out. Until then, no thanks.




RE: and of course
By FITCamaro on 7/3/2007 9:16:40 AM , Rating: 2
I thought the same way but ended up getting one. An Elite. So far, no problems. It's not noisy. Even after a few hours of play, the air coming out of it isn't unreasonably hot.

I had Gears of War freeze on me only once at the very beginning of the game. But that was an issue with the game because the music kept playing, the console still responded to the button on the controller being pressed to go back to the dashboard, and hitting pause to go back to the main menu. I went back to the main menu and started the game over (it was literally 20 seconds into the game).


This story seems to be on the mark..
By cbf on 7/5/2007 5:10:40 PM , Rating: 2
Just posted on http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19620158/ :

quote:
Microsoft cited “an unacceptable number of repairs to Xbox 360 consoles” for the move. Xbox 360 customers who experience general hardware failure indicated by three flashing red lights will now be covered by a three-year warranty , the company said.
I wonder if they'll reimburse anyone who paid for repairs out of warranty?




By BMFPitt on 7/5/2007 7:02:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Microsoft also will reimburse the “small number” of Xbox 360 owners who have paid for shipping and repairs on out-of-warranty consoles, Bach said.


By Acid Rain on 7/2/2007 9:14:39 AM , Rating: 3
PS3 is probably still more expansive to make, but giving XBOX360 return rates - it might not be by much.

I had to hand it to Sony, that thus far, disregarding minor issues, PS3 seems solid. I remember prior to PS3 launch many people expected it to be rushed to the market in an unstable buggy state - but Sony really came through, at least in that respect.




Get the MS warranty if you're going to get one
By A5 on 7/2/2007 9:18:51 AM , Rating: 2
It's a good bit cheaper than getting it from any of the retailers - just plow through the phone menu on 1-800-4MY-XBOX until you get to talk to someone, then tell them you want an extended warranty for your 360. When I did it, I was charged $50 for a 2 year extension.




By FITCamaro on 7/2/2007 9:50:11 AM , Rating: 1
I bought the Best Buy replacement plan. Main reason being that I can take it back and get a full refund for the purchase price. So say when the 65nm one comes out....


Barking mad!
By Misty Dingos on 7/2/2007 9:02:57 AM , Rating: 2
I am a PC guy but I am not going to bust the X-Box fan's chops. I am however going to take a shot at MS.

How on earth could you allow a system to go to market with a failure rate like that? 33% is simply not acceptable. And honestly I think that some class action lawsuits and firings are in order.

And does anyone think that the marketing guys at MS want this kind of negative publicity?

I would not blame the X-Box owners if they marched on MS HQ besieged the place until they fix the 360 or change the name to the Crap Shoot Box or 86-Box.




That explains....
By nayy on 7/2/2007 10:15:21 AM , Rating: 2
the lack of price cuts.
Come on the console has been in production for nearly two years, manufacturing and minor design problems should all be fixed by now, the only explanation I see is that they did some major screw up in the original design that is to costly to fix, and they are caring the burden (actually we are, price should have drop all ready) until 65nm comes to save the day.




By adam92682 on 7/2/2007 11:18:28 AM , Rating: 2
Ive never had a CPU disconnect from the motherboard because it was too hot. I know it would be more expensive, but would maybe not as much as the cost to repair all the broken consoles.




American quality sucks
By on 7/2/2007 11:52:37 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not surprised at the numbers. Remember that Nintendo and Sony are Japanese companies, and Japan has had the best quality manufacturing and engineering for decades now. That's why the original XBOX failed so miserably, and prolly why this one is failing, too. (And no, the Japanese are not biased against American products. Just look at Coca-Cola and Apple's phenomenal success there. You need to have quality to succeed in the Japanese market.) The Japanese are the most demanding consumers in the world, where Americans just want the best deal. The results show this very clearly.




Personally....
By athlonotaku on 7/2/2007 12:04:19 PM , Rating: 2
Personally, I've just sent in my 3rd Xbox 360 due to a faulty DVD drive... Games would randomly freeze, movies would skip like crazy(even with a brand new movie). My first console didnt even last a day out of the box(graphic problems. My second had overheating problems and would freeze up after 30-40 minutes of use.

If I had to make the choice all over again, I probably would have waited for the wii. However, I can't justify such a move now that I've spent so much on games and repairs for my initial 400$ investment in the first place.




By giantpandaman2 on 7/2/2007 12:07:41 PM , Rating: 2
Japanese consumers ten to put a premium on reliable, small items. Now, of course, games are the most important thing, but I think too many people discount the simple basics of what people want.

The Wii is killing everything there. It's tiny and it's very reliable. Why can't MS do something to fix the 360? As a consumer electronics company MS really needs to learn something about TQM. Lack of reliability means they both lose money and, due to people not wanting a hassle, customers.

I, for one, have avoided the 360 purely for that reason. I don't like buying a lemon. Especially not a $400 one.




Yeah Right
By Supersonic3474 on 7/2/07, Rating: 0
RE: Yeah Right
By leexgx on 7/2/2007 5:17:18 PM , Rating: 2
systems do fail but Xbox 360 fails with no warrning just random, How many consoles you know that fail due to board fault before fans or the DVD drive or even the power pack

but its not the point Xbox 360 are not failing Due to an mechanical fault (like dvd drive fans so on) its an Board Fault somthing that Should not ware out or fall apart (heatsink falling off or it Brakeing the PCB board)


Fixed?
By TOAOCyrus on 7/2/2007 1:10:49 PM , Rating: 2
Remember a few weeks ago MS started using a new heatsink configuration? They also use epoxey on the GPU now. These may have fixed the problems but alot of older Consoles are still breaking. I havent seen any reports of eletes breaking.




gREAT
By Shadowmaster625 on 7/2/2007 2:40:13 PM , Rating: 2
So Nintendo owners get charged more for extended warranties because a bunch of idiots bought junk microsoft consoles? That's really fair.




Business as usual
By Jack Ripoff on 7/2/2007 3:16:20 PM , Rating: 2
This is consistent with Microsoft's modus operandi: don't test the product very seriously, end up releasing a rather buggy final product - sometimes after a lengthy delay.




Business as usual
By McGuffin on 7/2/2007 4:00:39 PM , Rating: 2
I'm not greatly surprised that Microsoft's hardware is as flaky as their software.

And to think Scott Adams said Bill Gates would make a good candidate for President. On the other hand, MS is about as efficient as FEMA, so Gates should fit right in.




By umeng2002 on 7/2/2007 7:08:30 PM , Rating: 2
...because that seems a totally unacceptable for a product.




By fix360guy on 7/3/2007 11:44:42 AM , Rating: 2
XBOX 360 3 red lights error - repair service provided in Los Angeles, CA area but also entire US.

www.fix360guy.com

email me at : fix360guy at fix360guy.com

thanks.




By Screwballl on 7/3/2007 12:38:27 PM , Rating: 2
One of the major selling points for the 360 is not the fans or those looking for it but rather the lack of availability of the Wii. The Wii is so hard to find that many parents and people in general just end up buying the next step up in the price structure being the Xbox 360.
After checking many stores within an hour of my house (every few days for the past month), all 7 WalMarts, none of them have any in stock for more than a few hours. Same story at 3 Targets, 3 Kmarts, 4 EBGames and 10 other video game based stores.




By bkm32 on 7/3/2007 1:42:03 PM , Rating: 2
This is really disturbing and frankly quite extraordinary in the history of videogames. What do I mean? I mean a console that is as successful as the X360 yet is so (at least anecdotally) unreliable. This is unprecedented to say the least. However, with the ubiquity of the Internet, news (even anecdotes) travel at the speed of light (with or without factual information). Rumor and half-truth on the Internet is credited as factual information. Therefore, the X360 is seen as having a 33% failure rate.

At any rate, that'll be $17.99 for a 2-yr warranty on this opinion.




Amazing.......
By Ronson on 7/4/2007 12:34:37 AM , Rating: 2
It's amazing how Microsoft hardware breaks as easily as Microsoft software. At this rate, I'd purchase a Wii and stretch my purchase cost for about 3-4 years instead of a X-Box which you can only use for 1 year before it dies on you.

This is the first ever disposable console.




Extended warranty
By Ronson on 7/4/2007 2:09:59 AM , Rating: 2
Microsoft should really provide a warranty of at least 2 years. If what they say about the X-Box 360 having a low defective rate is true then it shouldn't be any problem for them to give us a 2 year warranty for the X-Box 360.




By Black Rainbow on 7/4/2007 6:08:10 AM , Rating: 2
Why do modern consoles fail so oftenly? I have also heard of PS2 owners that their machines fail regularly, although must less often than a 360 I suspect. When and why did this happen? I still own a Nintendo 64 and a PSOne and I have never ever had any problems with either two. Why can't the manufacturers just make reliable consoles, just like back in the good old days of the PSOne and Nintendo 64?




XBox ME and Windows 360
By jeromekwok on 7/4/2007 9:03:48 PM , Rating: 2
I went to a service center to get my wd harddisk repaired. That service center also repairs gigabyte products and xbox 360. While I was waiting for service, I see other 4 guys were with their failed xbox 360. I also saw there was a cart at the service counter full of bad xbox 360 in 2 stacks. So by probability, the failure rate of xbox 360 could be four times more than all gigabyte and wd products put together. I am so sure I won't be getting xbox in future.




By yacoub on 7/5/2007 8:46:58 PM , Rating: 2
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20070705/D8Q6NLV80...

"Xbox 360 Repairs Will Cost $1 Billion+" (headline from DrudgeReport)




By pammy ut on 7/5/2007 10:55:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
This is extremely impressive considering that the PS3 is the most advanced videogame console system of all-time.

LOL... please!

The PS3 is pitiful as a videogame console. Even the Nintendo Wii is better for games. And the XBOX360 is light-years ahead of the PS3. No comparison, the PS3 is dead last.

Sorry to crush your dreams bkm32, but the PS3 is simply an inferior machine. It was poorly designed from day-1, and if you know anybody in the videogame DEVELOPMENT industry, you already know this is true. Developers HATE the PS3, and have often called it's design/architecture a "mess". Sony screwed up big time, and everybody knows it. Heck, even their legendary game guru retired from the Sony company (horribly embarrassed, no doubt) in the midst of seeing the PS3 getting slammed by XBOX360 and NintendoWii from both sides.

And the bottom line is GREAT GAMES. Something XBOX360 has LOTS of, but PS3 does not. In addition, almost every title that is available for both systems is universally rated and reviewed higher on the XBOX360.

The PS3 is a GREAT blu-ray player, but as a video game machine it's only for the casual player, not the hardcore gamers. End of story.

P.S. Microsoft just announced a 3-year warranty on ALL XBOX360's. So it would appear the only thing Sony fanboys had to stand-on and shout about, has now been pulled out from underneath their feet, leaving them and their "mess" of a system to fall flat on the ground. Ouch!




By bkm32 on 7/6/2007 8:46:43 AM , Rating: 2
Everyone, who posted here needs to give mad props to DT. Even if the article wasn't exactly "scientific" or whatnot, DT scored big to help the consumer, and every X360 owner and soon-to-be owner owes DT a great big "thank you"!

Thanks, DT.




By xbox360defective on 7/8/2007 2:34:51 AM , Rating: 2
CHECK THIS OUT:

Even after My very first xbox 360 Launch console crashed, 3 RED LIGHTS OF DEATH,

Even after I started this website right away when I found out Microsoft was selling defective game consoles and trying to charge us to fix them way back in early 2006,

Even after I have received 3 defective REFURBS from the INEPT REFURB CENTER IN MC ALLEN TEXAS,

Even after I have been all over the internet, all over the Better Business Bureau, the Consumer Protection Agency, the Federal Trade Commission and tons of News Groups, Forums and

Even After spending COUNTLESS HOURS ON THE TELEPHONE WITH TECHNICAL SUPPORT AT MIDCROSOFT explaining about all the pieces of crapy they keep sending me,

Even after Microsoft changes the warranty for the xbox 360 fron 90 days to 1 year,

Even after microsoft gets called on the carpet by some agency and WEAKLY ADMITS THEIR IS A PROBLEM WITH THE XBOX 360 AND GOES PUBLIC WITH A VERY, VERY LIMITED 3 YEAR WARRANTY for all who have hte 3 red lights of death, ( YOU DO REALIZE THAT YOU CAN ONLY GET YOUR 360 FIXED IF YOU HAVE YOUR ORIGINAL SALES RECEIPT OR A COPY, PROOF OF PURCHASE)

Even after all the hell I have been through with this $400.00 Microsoft Game console,

MICROSOFT HAS THE TESTICALS TO SEND ME ANOTHER DEFECTIVE REFURB, EVEN AFTER THEY ARE ALL OVER THE NEWS FOR SENDING OUT DEFECTIVE 360s.

I am truly amazed at how LOW Microsoft can go.

They care so little about their consumers that they do not even care enough to make sure a customer who has already had 3 or 4 defective xbox 360s would atleast get 1, brand new working xbox 360 with the latest updates in hardware.

Yeah, right, Imagine that. Microsoft actually caring about their customers.

Let me ask you a question:

If you Say, I will go and fix someone's xbox 360, and do not.

or

You Actually do, fix someone's xbox 360, and do not talk about it.

Which is better?

Microsoft talks a lot about Most having a wonderful experience, and they talk a lot about how the satisfaction of the customer is priority 1, but the records show they don't give a flying shi^ about those of us who have spent money on ther test box, the xbox 360.

Signed... Owner of www.xbox360defective.com

And, the person who just now received another
BULL (MANURE) REFURB THAT IS DEFECTIVE. 
July 7, 2007




Freaking Microsoft
By Josh7289 on 7/2/2007 12:10:58 PM , Rating: 1
I hate this company more each day. If their repairs didn't cost anything, I'd be fine with it. Greedy !@#%$@#%...

That's what I like about Nintendo -- free repairs no matter what, even if you're out of warranty. THAT'S the way things should done.




Crap Yellow Journalism
By tarrbot on 7/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: Crap Yellow Journalism
By Misty Dingos on 7/3/2007 8:22:26 AM , Rating: 4
Libel: a written or oral defamatory statement or representation that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/libel

Anecdotal: based on or consisting of reports or observations of usually unscientific observers http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anecdota...

Now that we have defined libel and anecdotal you can now tell us how they apply here. While the evidence against MS is purely anecdotal it appears damning. If the failure rate of electronic equipment of a similar nature is used as comparison then it is even more damning.

Annual failure rates for PCs are about 7% in the first year of ownership.
http://www.gartner.com/press_releases/asset_154164...

You have to prove libel in court. If MS drags DT into court over this then they will have to PROVE that their Xbox 360 has a failure rate that is within the normal range of failure for personal gaming hardware. Considering that the typical gaming PC is more complicated than the 360 one would expect the Xbox to be more reliable.

A failure rate of 5% to 7% could then be expected then. If that were the case I think it would be hard for DT to find enough evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, to show a 30% failure rate for the Xbox 360.

I will close this with a simple question. There is one company that can tell you today what the failure rate for the Xbox 360 is today. And that company is Microsoft. If they can prove a reasonable failure rate why haven’t they?


RE: Crap Yellow Journalism
By Jerricho24 on 7/3/2007 10:11:35 AM , Rating: 2
I would have thought under freedom of Info act, that it would be easy to get actual figures from MS as that it is in the public intrest. I am unsure that MS would have a leg to stand on in attempting to block this request in a court if you(DT) had your credable anonymous source's to backup such claims. To maintain the source anonymity a request for closed session possibly?
As for nearly a third of a product being faulty, I would think a "national recall" wouldn't be alot to ask if the Nations that allow public release of said faild product had some form of consumer protection. If it had been a motor vehicle it would be front page, or a building contractor they would lose there builders permit. Sadly most countries consumer protection puts the onous on the underfunded consumer rather than the profit hungry corp'
In my game a reject rat of 2% is JUST exceptable, I like to keep mine below .5% the cost of the reject rate is caculated into the overall fee charged before production is even in the picture, anything less than the unwanted 2% reject rate is "cream"


RE: Crap Yellow Journalism
By Misty Dingos on 7/3/2007 11:31:05 AM , Rating: 2
I could be wrong but I do not think that a private company can be compelled to report failure rates for products that do not directly impact life, health, or safety of the consumer. Also I do not think the Freedom Of Information Act applies only to government and the US Federal government at that.


RE: Crap Yellow Journalism
By tarrbot on 7/3/07, Rating: -1
RE: Crap Yellow Journalism
By tarrbot on 7/4/07, Rating: 0
RE: Crap Yellow Journalism
By bkm32 on 7/4/2007 9:13:23 AM , Rating: 2
Give credit where credit is due. Impressive rebuttle. Winner, set, and match.

Major pwnage returned.


RE: Crap Yellow Journalism
By hozelda on 7/4/2007 11:36:44 AM , Rating: 3
>> 2) it's got defamatory statements

Could you be specific. The author explains the procedure and how the conclusions were arrived. At most it is suggested that the failure rate of all XBox's is bad based on an unscientific polling where, if witnesses are to be believed, the failure rate of such a sample is quite high. Also, the article notes that Microsoft has said in the past that its failure rate is a value in the range of 5%. Other representatives have avoided the issue altogether in public.

What I think is that the rate is very bad and Microsoft would be in trouble for misleading/ lying to the public. Not only are we talking about fines for Microsoft, followed by potentially many lawsuits, but it would be out in the open (especially after discovery) that Microsoft is producing hardware that is as alpha and immature as some of the software it produces [like Vista].

DT was just calling Microsoft on their bluff. Microsoft should not be lying in public; it comes back to bite you.

>> So, there is no burden of proof beyond that in a libel case. MS would not have to prove the failure rate is x%. ....
>> So, DT is indeed liable for libel and the burden of proof would be on DT to prove that they didn't engage in libel.

Through court discovery, DT would be able to bound the failure rate. If it is a really high number, they would have proved their was no libel [assuming this story is defamatory; I read it as a set of experiments that attempts to be representative and whose results do give a bad impression of the reliability of a particular product ..but for good reason].


RE: Crap Yellow Journalism
By Misty Dingos on 7/5/2007 8:14:24 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry about this being a little late. I was out at the beach and celebrating the 4th of July. Oh did I mention I am US citizen. Oh and something else. MS is a US company. Don't know where DT is housed or where the author of the article lives. I would not be surprised if he lived in the US also. So how does this apply? Well let me quote from the same wikipedia article.
quote:
Defamation law in the United States is much less plaintiff-friendly than its counterparts in European and the Commonwealth countries.

This is because the First Amendment to the Constitution of the United States gives strong protection to freedom of expression, which arose from the tradition of dissent in the American Revolution. For most of the history of the United States, constitutional protections of freedom of speech had no impact on the traditional common law of defamation inherited from the English legal system. This changed with the landmark 1964 case of New York Times v. Sullivan, in which the Supreme Court of the United States announced constitutional restrictions to state defamation law. The court held that where a public official was defamed, the plaintiff had to prove not just that an untruthful statement was made, but also that it was made with "actual malice" - that is, with knowledge of falsity or with reckless disregard for the truth. The "actual malice" standard was subsequently extended to public figures in general, and even to private figure plaintiffs seeking punitive or presumptive damages.


Yellow Journalism is an American invention. We do it better than anyone on the planet. And it is because we have the absolute right to freedom of speech. There is very little limitation on it.

It would be likely that any lawsuit for libel would be brought in the USA and in US courts the chances of MS winning this are vanishingly small. MS has not been damaged by the article and the consumer may have benefited greatly. If MS was damaged by the article it would have to show what that damage was. And how would they show that? Do you believe that the sales of the Xbox 360 have been damaged in any significant degree? I don’t think so. It is just this type of article in the US that has led to investigations and eventual product recalls.
.


RE: Crap Yellow Journalism
By hozelda on 7/6/2007 7:11:45 AM , Rating: 3
>> It is just this type of article in the US that has led to investigations and eventual product recalls.

Or how about that just days after this blog (possibly one of the last dominos in a long series) the company in question (Microsoft) announced that they are extending their warranty from 1 year to 3 years on this product (XBox360) and will even reimburse those that paid their return shipping charges in the past. This will result in a 1 billion write off to cover their anticipated near future costs.

I think Microsoft is going to use this 1 billion to cover up some losses from the XBox division to make it look healthier than it is. One billion is less than a month's worth of profits for Microsoft, and putting up good numbers for this business division is important to them, enough to risk playing inside the gray areas in accounting. Nevertheless, this story has done a great service to the consumer. If I were undecided about buying an XBox360, I would now know that I would have a respectable chance of having to deal with the hassles of returning the product (possibly more than once) and waiting for a replacement or else I lose out on any satisfaction from the hundreds spent on the system. If I still wanted to go through with that effort and cost, I would be in a better position of knowing I have up to 3 years of coverage.

We need more stories like this one. Rather than to encourage lawsuits, (if based on facts,) they lead to changes and much needed customer service and product improvements [let's hope we get more than lip service improvements in this case].


RE: Crap Yellow Journalism
By bkm32 on 7/4/2007 9:08:21 AM , Rating: 2
Well done, MD. I believe the scientific term for this would be:

"pwned"

or in the immortal wards of one Eric Cartman, "major pwnage".


Boring
By mdogs444 on 7/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: Boring
By spluurfg on 7/2/2007 9:49:56 AM , Rating: 5
Uh... If we can't deal with what exactly? High failure rates on products? Microsoft doesn't exactly warn the consumer that there is a high rate of failure on the Xbox 360 (in fact, they refuse to disclose this), so how is the consumer supposed to know what they are getting into? If I pay money for a product, I expect that it will work, or that the company will take the necessary steps to replace it.

quote:
Im just an average 28 yr old who is getting tired of complaining about each product out there. We know they have problems, we've known this for a long time. For all those who bought 1st gen systems, well you should have known what you were getting before hand. We dont buy 1st gen electronics in anything and not expect problems.


Nobody forces you to read other people's problems with their purchases, and this sort of journalism is interesting not just from a hardware perspective, but it is also revealing about MS as a company. Besides, the XBOX 360 is their second generation console...


RE: Boring
By mdogs444 on 7/2/2007 10:27:27 AM , Rating: 3
What im referring to - specifically in the 360 case - is that its problems: Red ring of death, refurbs being sent back, warranty issues, etc have been out in the media for quite some time - blogs, forums, the news, etc. Its no secret that the system is having issues, worldwide. I feel bad for the people who dont research a product before they buy it.

The 360 may be they 2nd console, but its not technically a 2nd gen or revision. Its all new hardware, software, etc. Nothing about the 360 is the same as the old Xbox.

When i said about people buying first gen, i was referring to buying the first revision of the console, being sold when it first came out. No one would have been able to know it had issues, and those are the people who got majorly screwed.

Since then, the issues have been widely known, and those who choose to purchase the product do so knowing that something COULD occur to it.

No where in my post did i defend MS, Sony, or any other manufacturer for their poor business ethics. But in today's age, a company would never disclose that there is something wrong w/ what they are trying to sell. Its just common sense.

So to counter that from a buyers perspective, we cannot just buy things and expect someone to fix if it breaks. We must do our due diligence and research what we are buying - to minimize the possibility of problems down the road.

This goes for more than just games, think of it as it pertains to cars. Wouldn't you do a great deal of research into the quality of a car before you purchase?


RE: Boring
By UppityMatt on 7/2/2007 12:05:44 PM , Rating: 3
I think the main problem with your post is that you turned a piece of investigative journalism into some rant about not buying the products of the companies.
"If you cannot deal with it, then dont buy it."

Then you go on to say

"This goes for more than just games, think of it as it pertains to cars. Wouldn't you do a great deal of research into the quality of a car before you purchase?"

What do you think this entire article is about??? its informing the public about a high defect rate so they are aware of issues. Why do you even post here?


RE: Boring
By mdogs444 on 7/2/2007 12:31:45 PM , Rating: 2
The article is throwing out numbers & figures (accurate or not, we dont know), but they aren't telling us anyhting we dont know - regardless of what MS tells us. You hear stories of someone on their 11th 360, others who have friends in which 5 out of 6 have broken, etc. We know the defect rate is extremely high (1/3rd i think may be exaggerating though).


RE: Boring
By spluurfg on 7/2/2007 7:11:28 PM , Rating: 2
I suppose I can see your point that it's always buyer beware, but not everybody expects such high failure rates from such 'reputable' companies. Sure, there's always the 'you should have googled it' answer, and maybe we've heard enough of it, but I think this kind of investigative journalism is very worthwhile to get the message across. It doesn't bash, and it doesn't interpret too much -- learning about failure rates from retailers seems pretty reasonable.

The only thing I can question in the study is whether consumers with an extended warranty would have a predisposition towards claiming faults that were either user error or fairly minor... though even with a fairly generous margin of error, the failure rate still seems very high.


RE: Boring
By One43637 on 7/2/2007 2:40:02 PM , Rating: 3
^^ my sentiments exactly.

On a related note, my 360 failed on me this past Saturday. Well ventilated, not enclosed, and it wasn't even a hot day when it happened.

The rep said my 1 year expired on June 24th. That's just great manufacturing there. 1 year and 6 days and it just dies.


RE: Boring
By leexgx on 7/2/2007 4:49:08 PM , Rating: 2
i guess every one should just brake there xbox 2-4 weeks before there 1yr runs out just to make sure thay get an replacement before it turns into an Fujtisu hard drive (TIME/TINY computers used them and thay would have 80% chance of it failing after 1yr thay never failed in warranty) problem with Xbox 360 its Very random there is no time line to when it fail you cant prediect whe its going to fail

the Xbox 360 is the Most unreliable console Ever made and the EU/US (or what ever corp deals with it) should Fine/tell them to fix the Xbox 360 as it does not Fall under norm Failed hardware use and an free replace ment should happen

what makes the Xbox fail any way ? is the heat-sink bending the board Overheating is not always the problem as users posting Red Ring Of Death (M$ need to add that to there Automated service line i have tryed ;) ) when its cooled as well thay still seem to fail


RE: Boring
By TSS on 7/2/2007 5:22:58 PM , Rating: 2
my best guess would be that it's microsoft. might sound like microsoft bashing but it isn't (though i'm definatly not a fan of MS).

MS is a software compagny, first and foremost. they started with an operating system, build a few applications for that system, eventually went over to game code... all fine... and then they design and build a console. now, ms is smart enoguh to hire some good personell (god knows they have the money for it) but you can't buy experience.

nintendo has been making consoles for decades now (with enough failures along the road to learn) while sony has been very active in consumer electronics. MS does nothing hardware orientated or very little in any case. they can program for it, but building it is a different matter. which we all saw with the first xbox which also crashed alot during the first week it was launched. and those where generic components, these are more specialized. that and even in the software field MS isn't exactly known for their reliability.

it's just the way MS does buisness, lie and hope the majority of consumers don't care enough to stop buying their products.


RE: Boring
By Acid Rain on 7/2/2007 9:54:47 AM , Rating: 5
I strongly disagree.

The inherit advantage of having a specific hardware and software to develop for is over-whelming. While on PC many obsticles take there toll on prformance:
1. ever increasing need for compatibility with older and newer ,rapidly changing graphic standards.
2. computability and tunning for different vendors and generations of CPUs.
3. all other hardware factors - sound, display size, display resolution etc etc.
4. running on a sub optimal OS compared to game consoles light-weight OS.
5. running on different OSs.

The bottom line is that game console have consistent good value in term of game performance - if I look at the best looking PS2 games today - It's hard to believe this console came out 7 years ago. the best computer 7 years ago would have been abandoned by game developers long ago or not look nearly as good/be playable, and would cost you many time more.


RE: Boring
By Proteusza on 7/2/2007 10:33:51 AM , Rating: 2
A machine built entirely for games is always going to be better than one that was really built for the office.

The advantage with the is the compatibility and wide range of uses, but that comes with its price - expensive hardware and slower performance, and use of x86 when we should have abandoned it long ago.


RE: Boring
By sdsdv10 on 7/2/2007 4:01:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
...and use of x86 when we should have abandoned it long ago.


Just curious. Why do you think that?


RE: Boring
By BMFPitt on 7/2/2007 11:07:14 AM , Rating: 3
I'm an avid PC gamer, and I have to say that your comments are completely unrealistic. At 7300 for a gaming machine? You'd be lucky to play year or two old titles on that. The fact is that if you have a console's price worth of money, you can't build a PC that can play the same quality games - and do it for the next 5 years. You also can't easily plug it into your TV, pop a disc in, and just play (though it's much closer to that now than it was 2 years ago.)

If you want to spend money on a machine that is only for games, buy a console. If you want the best experience and highest quality graphics, get a PC - but it'll cost you at least twice as much over the life of a console. Now if you want a PC to do other stuff, that has to be factored in as well. You're then only comparing the cost of making your Internet & email PC into something that can play games. This brings the cost closer, but only to about the point where it breaks even.

At this point really comes down to the games you want to play. I prefer to play sports or racing games on a console, while I play shooters or RTS games on a PC.


RE: Boring
By murphyslabrat on 7/2/2007 3:32:45 PM , Rating: 2
I disagree. While the X-Box 360 is more powerful for the money, you can buy an equivelant PC for about $200 more, self-built mind you, and have a much more versatile experience, and that is including a Radeon X1950 PRO or a GeForce 8600 GTS(I just did a quick virtual system build on NewEgg.com to check).

With that you can "easily plug it into the TV and play" via the S-Video/component out. You can also edit music/vdeos/pictures, run a wide variety of games, use heavy-footprint office-suites, and the list goes on.

Essentially, aside from multiple players on one "unit", there is nothing a console can do that a PC cannot. Also, this generation of consoles is nowhere near as far ahead of PC's as the PS2 was....That was one of the greatest deals in recent history, heck we still regularly have Soul Calibre III tournaments.

[nitpicking]Oh, and many modern games will run on a GeForce 7300, but that is with all the settings on lowest and a framerate of 30-70fps. While I, personally, would not want to run any games on a 7300, it is still(for some people) enjoyable.[/nitpicking]

Peace,
Sam Hughes

P.S. I don't know if the 360 does HD/Blu-Ray discs like the PS3, but if it does then that is one thing my "equivelant PC" could not do.


RE: Boring
By BMFPitt on 7/2/2007 4:04:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I disagree. While the X-Box 360 is more powerful for the money, you can buy an equivelant PC for about $200 more, self-built mind you, and have a much more versatile experience
Just like I said, except without the caveat that in 5 years XBox360/PS3/Wii will still play the latest games made for their respective platforms. Find me a 5 year old PC that will run a game made in 2007. It'll cost at least $200-300 to bring it up to minimum standards, coming out to just about double the cost of a console for the use period (just as I said.)
quote:
With that you can "easily plug it into the TV and play" via the S-Video/component out. You can also edit music/vdeos/pictures, run a wide variety of games, use heavy-footprint office-suites, and the list goes on.
Not on my TV. There has been a massive improvement with the nVidia drivers over the last 2-3 years as far as TV connectivity, but I still lose about 5% of my screen space (and I kind of need that Start Menu) when I plug it into my TV.
quote:
Essentially, aside from multiple players on one "unit", there is nothing a console can do that a PC cannot.
It can remain a uniform development platform for a long period of time.
quote:
P.S. I don't know if the 360 does HD/Blu-Ray discs like the PS3, but if it does then that is one thing my "equivelant PC" could not do.
It needs a $200 add-on. The same one works on PCs, and is the cheapest HD-DVD player available right now.


RE: Boring
By nemrod on 7/2/2007 4:59:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just like I said, except without the caveat that in 5 years XBox360/PS3/Wii will still play the latest games made for their respective platforms. Find me a 5 year old PC that will run a game made in 2007. It'll cost at least $200-300 to bring it up to minimum standards, coming out to just about double the cost of a console for the use period (just as I said.)


Apparently, the most difficult would be to find a 5 years old xbox360... If you have to buy a new one every year, this will cost much more than pc...


RE: Boring
By leexgx on 7/2/2007 5:21:49 PM , Rating: 2
i have to agree with nemrod post i guess at best you probly have to buy an new Xbox 360 every 2 yrs (unless you got 2yr ext on it)

after the first year its Pot luck when it fail and its not If its When it will do the Red ring of death


RE: Boring
By emboss on 7/3/2007 1:21:47 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Just like I said, except without the caveat that in 5 years XBox360/PS3/Wii will still play the latest games made for their respective platforms. Find me a 5 year old PC that will run a game made in 2007.


Lots of PCs will if you turn the settings down - which is effectively what is being forced on a console.

The graphics on a 5 year old console will look terrible compared to current games on current PC's, but probably prety close to the PC games with the settings cranked down enough to run on a 5 year old system.


RE: Boring
By BMFPitt on 7/3/2007 11:13:08 AM , Rating: 2
My secondary computer dates to mid 2003, so around 4 years old right now. Athlon 2600, 512MB (later 1GB), 40GB HDD (later added 250GB), nVidia 5600GT (later 6600 GT), and a 20" CRT. Paid around $900 at the time, added about $400 over the years. In the interest of fairness, we'll exclude the cost of the monitor and the extra HDD since they wouldn't be needed for a console, which brings the cost of ownership to ~$1000. That was for a service life of about 3 years (and I would be due for another graphics card about now if it was still my main box.)

We all agree that at best, a console in its prime is no better than equal the performance of a PC, but for any realistic assessment of cost vs. performance for a gaming-only machine, the console is the better value. Also consider that the vast majority of people are not DT readers, and the thought of opening up their PC case terrifies them.


RE: Boring
By MeTaedet on 7/3/2007 12:18:37 AM , Rating: 2
The problem with this, though, is that if you create a PC with precisely the same technical specs as the XBox 360, you still aren't going to have games with the same graphical quality, since a great deal of the total system resources of a PC are being horded by inefficient Windows processes (and even if they weren't inefficient...). You can't compare the specs of a console to the specs of a PC and argue directly from those numbers without taking into account the all the overhead of a PC OS.

For example, the Playstation can manage some pretty damn good graphics at times, but if you were to make a PC with the same technical specs, you certainly wouldn't be able to run any relatively recent version of Windows on it, let alone run Windows and play a Playstation game.

So, in summary, I sincerely doubt that you could build a PC at a price $200 greater than that of the XBox 360 and be able to play games of comparable graphical quality.

Also, as others have mentioned, if you spend just enough money building a PC to be able to play current games, within no time at all, you are going to have a hunk of junk with which you can't do anything but replay old games. In order to have something with a lifespan comparable to that of a console, you would have to spend at least $2000, I would imagine.


RE: Boring
By dubldwn on 7/3/2007 12:58:10 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So, in summary, I sincerely doubt that you could build a PC at a price $200 greater than that of the XBox 360 and be able to play games of comparable graphical quality.

CPU $165 e6320
RAM $40 1GB DDR-2 667
BOARD $80 650i
GPU $155 x1950xt
DRIVE $20 lite-on
PSU/CASE $50 450W
OS $90 XP

TOTAL: $600


RE: Boring
By dubldwn on 7/3/2007 1:06:04 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't add the hard drive, because how many of those do you have laying around your kitchen?


RE: Boring
By wallijonn on 7/5/2007 1:21:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I sincerely doubt that you could build a PC at a price $200 greater than that of the XBox 360 and be able to play games of comparable graphical quality.


Have you looked at the amount of floor and shelf space dedicated to console and PC games? The PC real estate has been shrinking every few months, to where whole walls are dedicated to consoles and maybe a shelf or two to PC games. There are more console games than PC games produced. So, it wouldn't really matter if the PC has the graphical advantage if there are fewer games for it.

To me, it seems that PC gaming has been dying a slow death and now with Vista it is on life support. Just my opinion.


RE: Boring
By SigmaHyperion on 7/5/2007 6:58:57 PM , Rating: 2
Unfortunately, that's a faulty assumption.

There's a reduction of floorspace for PC games in stores for 2 reasons:
1> GameStop/EBGames/etc make the vast majority of their money on the sale of used games not new ones. They've never been able to effectively sell used PC games, therefore there's not a lot of reason for them to carry the new ones when that space is much better used for carrying profit-laden used ones from other platforms.

2> PC gamers are much more likely to buy their games online for delivery than console gamers. Brick-and-mortar sales just aren't there for PC games. And it gets lower and lower every year as direct-downloading becomes a more popular option.

All you've got to do is take a look at the upcoming titles list by platform to see that the PC still dominates in sheer number of titles released. Significantly lower entry hurdles ensure there's a steady flow of newly released titles; even if, admittedly, a lot are crap.

In terms of sheer dollars, in 2006 Retail PC Game sales were just a tad under $1 Billion. The total Retail (not used) Game sales for all other (non-portable) platforms was $4.5 Billion. So, compared to all console gaming, the PC only makes up about 20% of the market (still a LOT more than you'd think by looking in a GameStop). But, in reality, that $4.5B was spread over the GameCube, Wii, Xbox, 360, PS2, and (to a much lesser extent as it was new) the PS3. Only the PS2 actually generated more retail games sales dollars than the PC.

Bottom-Line: Platform for Platform, sales of PC games are still very, very strong.


RE: Boring
By murphyslabrat on 7/2/2007 3:51:16 PM , Rating: 2
I disagree. While the X-Box 360 is more powerful for the money, you can buy an equivelant PC for about $200 more, self-built mind you, and have a much more versatile experience, and that is including a Radeon X1950 PRO or a GeForce 8600 GTS(I just did a quick virtual system build on NewEgg.com to check).

With that you can "easily plug it into the TV and play" via the S-Video/component out. You can also edit music/vdeos/pictures, run a wide variety of games, use heavy-footprint office-suites, and the list goes on.

Essentially, aside from multiple players on one "unit", there is nothing a console can do that a PC cannot. Also, this generation of consoles is nowhere near as far ahead of PC's as the PS2 was....That was one of the greatest deals in recent history, heck we still regularly have Soul Calibre III tournaments.

[nitpicking]Oh, and many modern games will run on a GeForce 7300, but that is with all the settings on lowest and a framerate of 30-70fps. While I, personally, would not want to run any games on a 7300, it is still(for some people) enjoyable.[/nitpicking]

Peace,
Sam Hughes

P.S. I don't know if the 360 does HD/Blu-Ray discs like the PS3, but if it does then that is one thing my "equivelant PC" could not do.


RE: Boring
By Supersonic3474 on 7/2/2007 5:18:54 PM , Rating: 2
I heavily disagree with you, take $1000 and you may end up with a PC that can display graphics close to that of the 360 at $400. And console gaming doesn't require a $600 video card every 2 years. The money you throw at your PC to get it up to snuff is insane. CPU, RAM, MOBO, Video, HDD. You are looking at some serious money there. You pay just $10 on average more for a 360 games than you do a PC game, and you don't have to worry about the bastard crashing constantly especially if you have that piece of garbage VISTA! err how in the world is PC Gaming better, no standard control scheme, NUTZO! no one wants to take their Standard machines and shell out $500 for a video card for their $500 PC. You end up loosing a ton of HDD space, clogging your registry and you have to worry about FPS all the time cause it NEVER STAYS FIXED!

quote:
I'm an avid PC gamer, and I have to say that your comments are completely unrealistic. At 7300 for a gaming machine? You'd be lucky to play year or two old titles on that. The fact is that if you have a console's price worth of money, you can't build a PC that can play the same quality games - and do it for the next 5 years. You also can't easily plug it into your TV, pop a disc in, and just play (though it's much closer to that now than it was 2 years ago.)

If you want to spend money on a machine that is only for games, buy a console. If you want the best experience and highest quality graphics, get a PC - but it'll cost you at least twice as much over the life of a console. Now if you want a PC to do other stuff, that has to be factored in as well. You're then only comparing the cost of making your Internet & email PC into something that can play games. This brings the cost closer, but only to about the point where it breaks even.

At this point really comes down to the games you want to play. I prefer to play sports or racing games on a console, while I play shooters or RTS games on a PC.
quote:


RE: Boring
By darkpaw on 7/2/2007 6:18:32 PM , Rating: 2
There is no need to buy a $500-600 video card ever, especially not every 2-3 years. A $200 card will usually last for 2-3 years of life.

My brother-in-law is still using a 9800Pro that cost $100 two years ago and while he can't get the latest and greatest, it still works decently in most games.

Console gaming is still a better deal in the long run in bang-for-buck, but for pure versatility the PC can't be beat.


RE: Boring
By Christopher1 on 7/2/2007 10:11:17 PM , Rating: 2
I have to agree with you. A 200 dollar PCI-X video card right now will last a good long time. I've been thinking of upgrading my parents computer recently, but I have to catalog the connections in their PC before I do that, and I'll be buying at most a $200 card.


RE: Boring
By luhar49 on 7/3/2007 4:12:03 AM , Rating: 2
Agree with you.
If you are looking for the excellent quality in latest games at a decent resolution like 22"+(1600x1080), you need to upgrade your graphic cards fast. I just got an ATI 2900XT recently. It cost me only 23% less than my PS3. Thats for the graphics card alone. Add the processor/mobo/RAM/PSU costs and I end up spending almost 2.5 times as much as the PS3.

PC gaming is certainly nice with all the eye candy and the mouse/keyboard support for FPS games. But it comes at a high cost.


RE: Boring
By BMFPitt on 7/3/2007 11:22:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I heavily disagree with you, take $1000 and you may end up with a PC that can display graphics close to that of the 360 at $400.
You may, if you spent most of that money on hard drives or something.
quote:
And console gaming doesn't require a $600 video card every 2 years.
If PC gaming requires a $600 video card, the console gaming requires a $3000 TV. Both statements are absurd, but it's hard to claim one and deny the other.
quote:
and you don't have to worry about the bastard crashing constantly especially if you have that piece of garbage VISTA!
My install of Vista has crashed a total of zero times. Then again, my 360 hasn't had a RROD yet, either. Of course, I take it by your tone that you've never even seen Vista running.
quote:
err how in the world is PC Gaming better, no standard control scheme, NUTZO!
Mouse? Check. Keyboard? Check.
quote:
no one wants to take their Standard machines and shell out $500 for a video card for their $500 PC. You end up loosing a ton of HDD space, clogging your registry and you have to worry about FPS all the time cause it NEVER STAYS FIXED!
It sounds as if your favorite PC game is installing spyware. In that case, another big benefit of a console is protecting you from yourself.


Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By crystal clear on 7/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By TomZ on 7/2/2007 10:10:20 AM , Rating: 1
I don't understand why "Made in the USA" would mean anything to manufacturing quality. Why can't the same process you described be done in China, Malaysa, S.Korea, etc.? Americans don't have any kind of monopoly on manufacturing quality control.


RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By crystal clear on 7/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By masher2 (blog) on 7/2/2007 11:42:57 AM , Rating: 4
> "Summary- Americans make it better than the countries you mentioned..."

I'll take Japanese consumer electronics over American any day of the week, and twice on Sunday.


RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By theapparition on 7/2/2007 12:33:17 PM , Rating: 2
I'd probably take American.....that's only if there was any consumer electronics made in America. But since there isn't..........


RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By crystal clear on 7/2/07, Rating: -1
RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By shabby on 7/2/2007 2:27:02 PM , Rating: 1
Have you ever worked as an assembler/tester in an electronics manufacturing company in north america? Are the wages good? Is the employee morale good? I dont think so.
I've worked in celestica before, and thats where some of the xbox 360's are being produced. I could tell you the employees are paid zilch and could care less about the product.

North america is so high on profit they will cut costs on quality and employee wages. How else will you keep your shareholders happy?


By Jerricho24 on 7/3/2007 10:37:56 AM , Rating: 2
this is indeed the case "pay penuts, you'll get monkeys" it doesn't strike me as odd that the low paid worker doesn't respect the product they manufacture nore the customer that buys it and you can guese there attidude toward the suited up excec's and there flash black Merc's that never get seen on the factory flore. I finde that hands on managers have a much greater awaerness of the mood and can head of product failures simply by asking the guy at his/her workstation "can you see any problems with this?" worker replies "yea its gonna get hot" worker savey exec say's "hay thanks I'll look into that" end result, the worker thinks he has valid imput toward the company and product, he feels his opinion was worth something and takes greater pride in all aspects of his/her work. The manager/exec has with vary minimal work improved production and therefore profit, the share holder worker and exec are all better of and the consumer gets a better more reliable product to me this is a nobrainer unfortunatly this is not the case in the world at the moment,a strange missguided facisme at the top tear has gummed up the works. IMO anyway


RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By xbox360defective on 7/4/2007 1:11:58 AM , Rating: 2
I have to comment, I am sorry.

First I have to say this.
I love America, born and raised here.
BUT.
Generally speaking, Americans are lazy, and could care less about doing a good job. Today, most importan though on the minds of workers is Getting Paid and then getting the hell away from the jobsite.

I have tried to hire many workers for many things, and I have to go behind them and make sure they do their job.

In construction we have what is known as Tolerance. That is in more simpler terms, the amount of being off the mark that is allowed. Americans do not even know where the mark is! All they care about is getting paid and getting home.
I am not happy, nor do I take joy or pride in saying that, but I can give you so many examples that I do not have room here... How may times have you ordered food at a fast food place, only to have your simple order wrong? I rest my case. If the 360 was manufactured in some other country, I do not know which, but for instance, possibly Japan, I'll bet pride in workmanship would not allow them to go public with it until it was proven reliable.
?


By Pythias on 7/9/2007 9:01:32 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
How may times have you ordered food at a fast food place, only to have your simple order wrong?


Hundreds of times. Usually delivered or prepared by someone who didn't or wouldn't speak English.


By samir80 on 7/2/2007 3:15:41 PM , Rating: 1
Just to inform you that TATA no longer manufactures for mercedes in India for quite a few years now, i do think there is difference in quality of the cars produced but i dont think you take into account that every manufacturing plant caters to specific geographical area, and cost of production does come into play because of various regulatory provisions. I personally dont think that mercedes would allow such a inferior product into the market(to the extent you suggested).

P.S. if you are wondering i am from Mumbai, India


By PrimarchLion on 7/2/2007 5:54:32 PM , Rating: 1
Sony televisions are assembled in Westmoreland County, Pennsylvania. Get a job there and you get like a 35% discount. I worked in quality control but I didn't purchase a television while I was there (stupid me). Now I can see all the dead/lit pixels and other defects in any display I own. YAY!


RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By Sebec on 7/2/2007 2:43:54 PM , Rating: 1
I would too, although interestingly, a lot of Japanese electronics are also made outside of Japan. A few examples, my PS2 and Wii were both made in China. I recently bought a JVC/Victor portable mp3 player made for the Japanese market (not sold in US), and that was made in Malaysia. Thinking back, I remember my original NES said "Made in Japan."


By bkm32 on 7/3/2007 3:19:24 PM , Rating: 2
Some PS3s are made in S. Korea along with some Bravia LCD TVs


By robber98 on 7/2/2007 1:44:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not only electronics/computer components etc even basic stuff like Toys BREAK UP EASILY.


quote:
Summary- Americans make it better than the countries you mentioned.


Orly? How about American car (E.g. Ford)?


RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By AvidDailyTechie on 7/2/2007 1:51:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Our attitudes to business/commerce/manufacturing & quality control/ethics etc are developed & at a higher level.


Now I really don't like to go off topic here, but come on man... Let's be realistic, America's attitude towards business is NOT favorable for the consumer. To me, that would mean they're not 'developed and at a higher level'. America is of, by, and for the corporation.

American ethical standards, as far as business goes, are based on what will and what won't make money. Some corporations have a great philosophical backbone, but most could give a sht of what they do so long as it makes money and their shareholders are happy.


By bryanW1995 on 7/2/2007 8:10:56 PM , Rating: 3
yes, that's the thing that I love about japaneses companies: they all care about holding hands and singing kumbayah all day long...


RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By PandaBear on 7/3/2007 1:49:39 AM , Rating: 2
As an electrical engineer, I can tell you that it is not where it is made, but the attitude of the company in charge of engineering, manufacturing and the final inspection that determines the quality.

What we see here for MS is an ENGINEERING failure. They underspec the quality or didn't do enough testing in harsh environment to see the problem. If they have done oven test like they should, they would have caught it before launch.

Don't blame the manufacturing, even if you build it in US, if your engineering is crap it is still crap.


RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By crystal clear on 7/3/07, Rating: 0
RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By PandaBear on 7/3/2007 2:45:11 PM , Rating: 2
You are voted down because of the intelligence of your comment. I work for an AMERICAN company in America and is an American, as an engineer. The tools we buy are based on quality and the material we use is based on quality. Some are American, some are Japanese, and some are from Taiwan/China.

There is not a single bit of my comment that say American engineering sucks, just you have to interpret it that way. MS have crappy engineering and they use 90 days warranty to cover it up instead of making expensive revision. Now they have to pay for more repairs because they get tons of complains on quality issues, that's bad engineering regardless of where MS is from or where it is build.


RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By crystal clear on 7/3/2007 8:48:03 PM , Rating: 1
I clearly quote you as below-

I have a feeling there is a strong ANTI AMERICAN HATRED hidden behind those comments (except yours, Masher & TomZ).

"Yours" implies to you ! that means your comment like TomZ.Masher, & YOU have NO Anti Americanism in them !


RE: Assemble them at home-Made in USA !
By RubberJohnny on 7/4/2007 12:22:40 AM , Rating: 2
Can i make this crystal clear for you?
Panda knows you aren't trying to say he has an ANTI AMERICAN HATRED he's trying to say your comment is total BS - and i agree with him.


By crystal clear on 7/5/2007 8:05:50 AM , Rating: 2
Are you his official spokesman or his Rubberstamp ?

Guys like you are best ignored !

By the way let me remind you- July 4 is independence day of the USA !-If your are an American -are you proud of your country ?-MADE IN USA !

Dont bother to respond-I wouldnt bother to read it !


By xbox360defective on 7/4/2007 1:15:54 AM , Rating: 2
I agree totally.


By xbox360defective on 7/4/2007 1:18:35 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
As an electrical engineer, I can tell you that it is not where it is made, but the attitude of the company in charge of engineering, manufacturing and the final inspection that determines the quality.


I agree totally.


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