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The Xbox 360 Elite is the top SKU... for now
Microsoft to put Blu-ray Disc inside Xbox 360 to compete with PlayStation 3

Although Microsoft has continually denied the development of a Blu-ray Disc enabled Xbox 360, reports slowly trickle in from Asian OEMs working on such an upgraded console.

According to a recent report by the DigiTimes, which cites Chinese-language Economic Daily News (EDN) newspaper, Pegatron Technology, an OEM subsidiary of Asustek Computer, has won the order to make Xbox 360 consoles equipped with a Blu-ray Disc drive.

Previous interpretations of Blu-ray Disc on Xbox 360 figured an add-on device similar to the HD DVD drive, but this latest report points strictly at a new SKU that would incorporate a BD-ROM drive internally to match up with the PlayStation 3.

Shipments of such a console are supposed to commence in the third quarter of this year, likely making it a product that Microsoft will promote heavily during the holiday season against Sony’s console.

Last month, reports from Taiwan pegged Lite-On as the maker of Blu-ray Disc hardware for the Xbox 360. Microsoft quickly turned around to deny any development of such a product, and continued to push Xbox Live Marketplace’s high-definition content. “For our customers who want a premium movie experience we offer the largest library of on-demand HD content available and the ability to play back DVDs in high definition,” said the representative.

The PlayStation 3 is the best Blu-ray Disc player on the market, which allows Sony to capture both the hardcore gaming and home theatre crowd. ABI Research estimated that PS3s make up more than 85 percent of Blu-ray players in use this year and that the number of stand-alone players and Blu-ray-equipped PCs won't surpass Sony’s console base until 2013. A Blu-ray Disc capable Xbox 360 could help Microsoft’s console look more attractive to high-definition movie buyers.

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Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Belard on 5/2/2008 8:37:54 PM , Rating: 2
While this is most likely true... Making a 360 with a BluRay drive won't do anything to help the 360 as a game console. The standard is single or double sided DVD discs (4.7 / 9GB discs) which doesn't compare to 25/50GB abilities of BluRay.

It'll only be useful for watching movies. Game developers will not touch it... The add-on is still a good idea, and I don't think MS can prevent someone else from making their own USB connected blu-ray add on.

Considering the price of the Elite to be $450, a BluRay version may cost upwards of $600.... it WILL help make sales for MS... but not compared to a $400 PS3 which is still getting cooler and lighter than its original release version.




RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By kellehair on 5/2/2008 9:02:21 PM , Rating: 2
"Making a 360 with a BluRay drive won't do anything to help the 360 as a game console. The standard is single or double sided DVD discs (4.7 / 9GB discs) which doesn't compare to 25/50GB abilities of BluRay."

While I would normally agree that bigger IS better I have to wonder what "abilities" you refer to. GTA4 was just released and is the perfect example of disc capacity not meaning much for games. GTA4 is loaded with content, including endless hours of music and speech, yet both the PS3 and 360 versions are all but identical. This will be the best selling game for both consoles this year and I think it will finally put the DVD vs. BD for games argument to bed.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By EnzoFX on 5/2/08, Rating: -1
RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By MonkeyPaw on 5/2/2008 10:26:20 PM , Rating: 4
If a bunch of HD video is all bluray adds to a game, then I say skip it. In-game video could be of the highest quality and I'll still want to skip through it to get back to the gameplay. Don't get me wrong, sometimes it's necessary, but I don't want game companies to turn into movie studios where all the promo's from the game are just cinematics that look better than the game actually does. No thanks.


By SlyNine on 5/3/2008 1:32:10 AM , Rating: 1
Bah, I still love me some good CGI effects in video games.

But as far as this not helping the 360 as a game system. You have to remember that as a game system the 360 titles are FLYING off the shelvs compaired too the PS3.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Yocal on 5/3/2008 8:46:55 AM , Rating: 4
I agree with you on the gameplay 100%. Im not really all that interested in amazing cut scenes and visuals if the gameplay is horrible. But as for the Blu-Ray, while I dont think it will add anything to the gaming world, I have a few friends that game on the 360 and bought a PS3 simply for its Blu-Ray. So if the price is right, I think MS might be able to crack into that market just a bit. Provided theres no Blu Ring of Death.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By tastyratz on 5/3/2008 10:29:28 AM , Rating: 2
there's a lot more than this
the dvd drive on the x360 was a terrible mistake.
ps2 and xbox were able to produce games that hit the max capacity of the dvd disc. The only way to avoid that is compromise. The games may not have hit a wall at first but as the system gets older it will become more of a restriction.
Hd content is more than just cutscenes, its textures, in game audio, in game graphics, and more.

Playstation 3 games have the luxury of using bluray and because of that they have things like uncompressed audio and textures in many games.

This will ultimately lead to giving the ps3 more and more of an edge as time goes on.

I think everyone knows that media takes space in every form.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Reclaimer77 on 5/3/2008 11:44:09 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
the dvd drive on the x360 was a terrible mistake.


The 360 is still outselling the PS3. And unlike Sony, MS doesn't lose money on every sale. Exactly how much of a terrible mistake did MS make ? I mean come on people, reality check. The Wii has NO movie playback of any kind, and crushes both PS3 and 360 in sales.

You people are talking like consoles aren't some huge gimmick. In a few years, tops, the next generation consoles will already be out. And all this discussion and arguing will be such a moot point.

quote:
This will ultimately lead to giving the ps3 more and more of an edge as time goes on.


And edge in what ? They don't have an edge now, when are they going to get that edge ? The extra space on the Blu Ray disk doesn't automatically translate into better gaming. Gaming on the PS3 isn't better now simply because of Blu-Ray. In fact, its not better period.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Belard on 5/3/2008 2:01:15 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The 360 is still outselling the PS3. And unlike Sony, MS doesn't lose money on every sale. Exactly how much of a terrible mistake did MS make ? I mean come on people, reality check. The Wii has NO movie playback of any kind, and crushes both PS3 and 360 in sales.


Actually.. since FEB of this year, PS3 sales have exeeded 360sales. Even this past week alone, 9000 more PS3s were sold in the USA over the 360. In Japan and Europe, the PS3 sales are even better. The Wii is doing well in its target user. Let me put it to you this way, Old-Folks homes have Wii as an excersise/game thingy for the elderly/handycap. Wii is a good device, but its still not much more than a GameCube... sold at a higher price with a new joystick type. Its also only $150 cheaper than PS3... but it should be less considering the things it can't do.

But look at this, the game cube is 2001 tech that was $199 originally, but when it was replaced by the Wii, it got down to $99... so a slightly better CPU/GPU and they raise the price up to 250... yeah, Nintendo did a great job re-packaging an old console. The game cube ended with 21million units over 7 years. The PS3 is at 12million in just over a year.

As of this time, 12million PS3 is doing pretty good against 18million 360s.

You're wrong about the MS doesn't lose money. The xbox division is still not making profit, but I think they maybe in the black now... but yeah, every Xbox & PS3 is SOLD at a loss - as they make money from game licences. Sony started NOT losing money on the PS3 faster than MS on their 360. The R.O.D really hurt MS... and they deserve it.

Now, I think MS was in a tough position with the 360 and they DID pretty much the only thing they could. They should have spent another 3-6 months fixing its thermal issues, but MS was racing the clock to beat the PS3 to market. Remember, the Xbox1 which came out AFTER the PS2 - never got good sales... so they scrapped it and made the 360.

If they waited for HD-DVD to come out, it would have (1) added $200+ to the cost of each 360 (ouch) and (2) would have come out the same year as the PS3 and have to go head to head... and they would have lost, badly... it would have been a $600 console like the 60gb/PS3.

But HD-DVD was always in trouble - and if HD-DVD died with it being THE drive for the 360, it would have been VERY VERY bad for Microsoft.

MS is/was against blu-ray because Blu-Ray uses JAVA and HD-DVD uses the same code as the 360.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By ViperROhb34 on 5/3/2008 6:06:24 PM , Rating: 2
Actually PS3 outsold 360 for two months.. Jan And Feb - during the 360 part shortage.. In Columbus I could not find a 360 with the 20G HD ..for nearly 2 weeks ..

In March 360 went back into 2nd place, PS3 back to 3rd place ..

I think it'll be a tight race - from month to month.. but 360 already has a 7 million console lead and its apparent they are far outselling PS3 in gaming alone..


By TerranMagistrate on 5/5/2008 2:18:16 PM , Rating: 1
Too bad the 360 is only really popular in the US though. Sony has all other regions.

That lead, which is less than 7mil now, will likely be gone by the end of this year if not sooner. That's what MS gets for failing to dominate in Europe and Asia.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By tastyratz on 5/3/2008 11:35:28 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And edge in what ? They don't have an edge now, when are they going to get that edge ? The extra space on the Blu Ray disk doesn't automatically translate into better gaming. Gaming on the PS3 isn't better now simply because of Blu-Ray. In fact, its not better period.


Your twisting my post around.
The extra space doesn't make the game play any better, and neither do good graphics. The point was that the xbox 360 has spacial constraints that are met with an aging storage system and its that simple. A game can be released on both systems and be just as good a game and just as fun, the point being that developers left room to play have to sacrifice less, its not a difficult concept.
This was exactly my point saying the dvd drive was a mistake.

While the 360 hit the ground running its just like any other system. ps2 at launch had games on cd you didn't see that forever.

~The 360 is a next generation system with a last generation storage medium

As developers learn to exploit the 360 for its abilities and are able to extract every last ounce from the system they are going to find that the lack of storage space more constraining while the opposite will hold true on ps3. The games might be the same but if the graphics start getting better the 360 will have trouble on its hands.

Sony built the ps3 with intentions of a ten year lifespan. This race is going to continue for years to come. I'm sure we will see as we watch things develop.

The 360 creating a version with integrated blu-ray hardware could very well steal some ps3 thunder as a media player if Microsoft is smart enough to release it for less than the ps3 and market its movie playing abilities.

Now the ps3 is the best blu-ray player out there and its also the cheapest. If the 360 code blue has a smaller price tag it could lead to some interesting results.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Jovec on 5/4/2008 6:17:30 PM , Rating: 2
What Developer is going to spend extra time and money utilizing the entire BluRay disc? Aside from a few (Sony funded) exclusives, it's all about the least common denominator. MS has a lot of influence by going with DVD9 - most devs will target the 9GB range for multi-platform titles and take away Sony's BR advantage. At best there will be some non-gameplay bonuses such as special features or higher resolution textures.

While MS could have afforded to go with an internal HD-DVD or BR drive at release, the relative lack of success of the original X-Box meant that had to have the price advantage and release early. By contrast, Sony could only push BR because of the enormous success of the PS2.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By GuidoAnchovis on 5/4/2008 10:27:17 PM , Rating: 2
I think the best example is metal gear 4. Hideo Kojima actually had to tone down aspects in the game because he reached the maximum capacity of blu ray. Sadly that is only one example but still makes the point that size can matter. But it is true that very few developers will utilize that, but time will tell.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By tastyratz on 5/4/2008 10:56:43 PM , Rating: 2
Absolutely,
and heavenly sword has 10gb of audio content ALONE.

http://www.joystiq.com/2007/08/15/heavenly-sword-p...

The dvd9 is a limitation for graphically intensive games and that really cannot be denied.

I have a mod chipped xbox as well as ps2. I backup all my games in case anything were to happen to them. Most newer xbox and ps2 games sit around 5-6gb and the bigger releases go over that.
A next generation console with HD graphics and high quality sound should far surpass the requirements.

I am not saying the x360 is not a powerful system with much potential, I'm saying its last generation storage medium may have given it the advantage in price and allowed an earlier release, but it will prove to hold the system back over the next few years more and more while sony left room to grow.

PS3 has a 10 year expected lifespan. I cant find any information online with the 360.
What was MS projecting the 360 would have before releasing another system?


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By freaqie on 5/5/2008 5:51:49 AM , Rating: 1
which makes it totatlly apparant that all that space is being wasted. instead of unique textures, effets etc, they put uncompressed sound in it.
you can;t hear it, the only thing is is that it is very big.
aka a marketing stunt


By tastyratz on 5/5/2008 9:06:04 AM , Rating: 2
Situationally dependent.
If your using a 27" sd tv with a pair of computer speakers attached to it then I wouldn't expect someone to see or hear the difference.

If your using a large hdtv mated to some decent home audio you would probably notice a difference when presented side by side that being the only variables. Subtle visual differences can become glaringly obvious on a 42+

Game content isn't where the dvd limitation kicks in, games have long had massive amounts of content before and after the bluray... The dvd would seldom be the main factor in limiting game quantity, mainly just video/audio quality that's compressible and will show


By afkrotch on 5/5/2008 11:49:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
What Developer is going to spend extra time and money utilizing the entire BluRay disc?


Few as of now, but in the future, this will change. For a console that Sony plans to push for up to 10 years, it needs next gen everything.

quote:
MS has a lot of influence by going with DVD9 - most devs will target the 9GB range for multi-platform titles and take away Sony's BR advantage.


There's different ways to look at it. You can also look at them cutting features out of the game to fit onto a DVD9, like Epic may be doing with UT3 for 360. A game doesn't necessarily need to be built around the lowest common denominator. Just stripped for it.

If this weren't the case, all our games would still look like PS2 games. Sorry, but that advantage is still there.

quote:
At best there will be some non-gameplay bonuses such as special features or higher resolution textures.


Huh? Higher resolution textures is a non-gameplay bonus? If the game plays exactly the same, but looks better, I'd say that's a gameplay bonus.

quote:
While MS could have afforded to go with an internal HD-DVD or BR drive at release, the relative lack of success of the original X-Box meant that had to have the price advantage and release early. By contrast, Sony could only push BR because of the enormous success of the PS2.


The early release was plagued with RRoDs and ended up putting MS into the hole even more. Not exactly the best launch ever.

Course neither console had a generally good release. Lack of games, shortages, etc. It was what? 3-4 months after release that the next set of games were released for either console.

Even now, there really isn't a major success of the 360. It's popular in the states and mostly dead even in other locations. That or way last.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Yocal on 5/3/2008 12:20:10 PM , Rating: 2
My only complaint is the noise of the drive. While Im playing COD4 and snipe a guy in the head and watch the blood splatter on the wall, my first thought isnt "I wish I had a Blu-Ray" The difference in the games is barely noticable if it is at all. The big difference is content as more is available on the disc for the PS3, but correct me if Im wrong, isnt what doesnt fit on the disc available for download anyways? I know that on MLB 2K8 the unlockable stadiums and uniforms are on the PS3 disc, but they are downloadable via XBOX Live for the 360.


By Denigrate on 5/3/2008 1:20:51 PM , Rating: 2
PS3 rocks for Bluray. Gaming is <= 360, but I really didn't buy the PS3 for gaming, it's an added benny because I just wanted the best Bluray player, and got it for $299.

If the 360 had Bluray built in for the same price as the PS3, and with RROD gone in current incarnations of the 360, I would have purchased a 360.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Belard on 5/3/2008 2:06:46 PM , Rating: 3
Download?

What about those with xbox360s that DON'T have hard-drives or an internet connection?

A single Blu-Ray disc can hold up to 50GB of data... that's 50GB more than a non-HD 360 and 35+ GB more than a standard 20GB 360.

So what if you have 5 games requiring 5GB of downloadable content? There goes 25GB of HD space, oops - gotta spend $180 for the 120GB HD add-on. (Note: PS3s, the HDs are user replacable with ANY hard drive they wany. Droppng in a $150 320GB HD is not a problem for the PS3)


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Yocal on 5/3/08, Rating: 0
RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By afkrotch on 5/5/2008 12:08:48 PM , Rating: 2
And Epic Games looks to be removing maps and built-in map creators for UT3 on the 360. Have yet to see if this is exactly what will happen on the 360 version, as it's not released, but that's what they were looking at doing earlier this year.

As time goes on, more and more games will start utilizing more space. Blue Dragon on 360 takes up 3 DVDs. Lost Odyssey takes up 4 DVDs. These are long RPGs with high resolution textures. Sure, if they made it look like a PS2 game, it'd fit onto a single dvd, but what would have been the point of buying a 360?

I own a Japanese PS3, Japanese 360, and US 360. I like gaming on both. PS3 is hardly just a blu-ray player that plays games, but I've owned all my consoles for over a year now. What do you have? Just a 360, I'm assuming.


By Yocal on 5/5/2008 1:24:46 PM , Rating: 2
You are correct. I myself only have a 360. My brother has a PS3 and two of the guys I work with have both. Im not saying the PS3 is a bad system, it just seems that all the hype is how it performs as a Blu Ray player. The only games Ive played for the PS3 are MotoStorm and Resistance. The load times seemed long and the games looked great, but being Im of the XBOX world I just couldnt get used to the controller or controls. I think this is a debate that will linger on for quite awhile until something else comes along to replace it, the next bigger, better and faster thing. Which inevitably will happen.


By Shlong on 5/3/2008 4:01:23 PM , Rating: 4
So far the only time I preferred blu-ray was in GTA 4. On the Xbox 360 version, every once in a while some textures will be blurry / washed out (still uncompressing) and then all of a sudden pop up. But on my roommates PS3 version, I don't see this problem.


By Hiawa23 on 5/4/2008 2:32:15 AM , Rating: 2
there's a lot more than this
the dvd drive on the x360 was a terrible mistake.
ps2 and xbox were able to produce games that hit the max capacity of the dvd disc.

not sure where you are getting your info from, but MS clearly stated mostly all Xbox 1 did not even take up 1/2 the disch space, & most all of my PS2 weigh in no bigger 1 or 2 gigs. DVD space surely wasn't maxxed out on the PS2 or Xbox as there were very few games released on multiple discs.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Blight AC on 5/5/2008 8:23:26 AM , Rating: 1
Well, the 360 w/ Blu-Ray would have a large advantage over the PS3... built in IR. It kills me that I can't use my universal remote to control Blu-Ray playback on the PS3.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By tastyratz on 5/5/2008 1:26:39 PM , Rating: 3
actually
nyko bluwave.
Cost me less than 20 bux and I use my logitech harmony to control my ps3.
Very simply done


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Blight AC on 5/8/2008 10:03:22 AM , Rating: 2
Right sorry, what I meant to say is I can't use it out of the box, or without an adapter, especially considering one of it's touted features is as a multimedia device (Blu-Ray Movies).


By Belard on 5/9/2008 2:19:02 AM , Rating: 2
yeah... but none of your electronics came with your Universal remote either? You choose to buy your universal remote.... so for $20, your problem can be resolved. Thats a LOT cheaper, easier and cleaner than buying a 360-Blu-Ray add-on that has both power and USB cables running about.


By aos007 on 5/3/2008 11:25:01 PM , Rating: 1
Gee, thanks a lot, because of opinions like yours nowdays we mostly have games with shitty stories. Sure the gameplay needs to be good but at the other extreme if cutscenes (story) are good and the gameplay is not I would still play the game. And no, I don't want to leave movies to Hollywood - I haven't seen much out of there that compares to stories told in FMV of Wing Commander or Gabriel Knight. Sure their CGI is great and they get expensive actors but in genres I care about they got nothing (not considering movies made after books).


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By xphile on 5/3/2008 6:11:15 AM , Rating: 2
I think everyone has spent too much time mulling over the format war the past 18 odd months and is just simply used to arguing.

The next generation format war IS OVER. Blu-Ray has won. Even IF you forget any given platform's game delivery format as to what kind of disc is currently possible - if any of the game companies want to offer the next certain movie format they MUST include Blu-Ray capability.

The argument ends there and Microsoft knew it the day Toshiba went running to them and said "sorry Bill our pockets aren't as deep as yours".

So having just DVD will leave them totally out of the movie playback arena and that, just by itself, is too much of a loss.

Mark my words Microsoft will FULLY embrace Blu-Ray, will include it in EVERY 360 from a certain SKU series onwards, will make those SKU's fully backward compatible with all previous games, and will then slowly phase in additional game SKU versions of the most popular games that add extra features that use the extra space offered by the Blu-Ray format. Eventually ALL games will end up being on Blu-Ray disc and DVD will be phased out.

Don't think that's possible or likely? Then you are too young to remember when exactly that happened as CD-Rom phased out the floppy disc for games that came in two versions - one that offered things like speech and enhanced animation and one that didn't.

Blu-ray adoption is therefore a given - Toshiba confirmed that completely months ago.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By DigitalFreak on 5/3/08, Rating: -1
By xphile on 5/3/2008 11:14:58 AM , Rating: 3
Another incredibly articulate, well thought out and reasoned Fanboy statement. I bow to your incredible intellect and hope you continue your family tradition and that the offspring you and your sister bring into the world enlighten me just as much.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Spivonious on 5/3/2008 12:05:20 PM , Rating: 2
Even when software was on 10 floppies, people still purchased them instead of the CD-ROM version. Software is just now being regularly released on DVD-ROM. How long have computers had DVD-ROM drives, 6-7 years?

Sure, BR games are probably the future, but for this generation dual-layer DVD is more than enough.


By MamiyaOtaru on 5/3/2008 1:27:27 PM , Rating: 2
True, that CD versions have held on for long after DVD came out. For some reason though, this seems to have been more true/laster longer stateside than over in Euroland. There was still some delay, but it happened faster there I think. I wonder if the same thing will happen with bluray.

OT: I for one am in no rush to get a bluray drive. No linux playback = I'll stick with DVDs


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Belard on 5/3/2008 2:39:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Mark my words Microsoft will FULLY embrace Blu-Ray, will include it in EVERY 360 from a certain SKU series onwards, will make those SKU's fully backward compatible with all previous games, and will then slowly phase in additional game SKU versions of the most popular games that add extra features that use the extra space offered by the Blu-Ray format.


Er... uh no. They'll make a "Super Elite" of some sort that will sell for almost $600... but no, they CANNOT make Blu-Ray the format for their games to run on. This is how it is with Consoles. When they had the CD-ROM drive add on for Saga, it sold badly because there were SO few titles for the sega-drive. chicken & the egg issue. The Sega was cartridge based and there were size limits compared to a 640mb CD-ROM... but it wasn't standard.

Just now, almost 1 million HD-DVD owners got screwed when Toshiba pulled the plug... There are currently 18million Xbox360s out there (but perhaps 16 million users - considering the number of people who replaced dead units/ or MS sent out replacement units) and in another 3~4 months that number should 20million. Think MS is going to tell 20million users "Soooo Sorry, you must now replace your 360 because we have added blu-ray drives and Developes are going to be making games for blu-ray discs)...

Don't think so. That'll piss off a lot of people who (A) won't buy it (b) won't buy another xbox (c) will buy a PS3 or PS4.

The blu-Ray drive for a 360 will be like the HD-DVD add-on... to play movies. When the built-in blu-ray xbox comes out, I bet its sales will be less than 10% of new sales of xbox360s.

I think in the end, xbox360 will end with about 30~35 million units when the next xbox comes out. Out of those, only 2~3 million or so will have blu-ray drives built-in.

The PS3 will exceed that number because of the standards built into it... and MS will want to get their NEXT console out before the PS4.

History: Xbox sold 24million. The PS2 is almost at 120million... Plan on Xbox3 to come out around 2010-2011, to beat PS4's 2013 launch.


By Apoxie on 5/4/2008 3:14:30 AM , Rating: 2
They will just sell a Blu-Ray add-on drive. Problem fixed.


By SiN on 5/4/2008 1:43:26 PM , Rating: 2
1st i dont think their "Super Elite" as you put it will cost so much. They will reshuffle their line up to make it the same price as the current elite, elite goes to premium, premium to arcade, arcade becomes new entry level (or something to that effect) unless it is a stand alone add on periferal (however the article indicates that it would be an internal drive to compete with PS3)

2nd Ya your right. Only a tw@ would think that their new blu-ray enabled console means that games will go blu ray on 360. Total FUD. Complete misinformation. MS cannot make 360 games on the Blu Ray format. they could do BUT it WOULD hurt them, the brand and brand loyalty.

3rd i don't think the "PS4" and "xbox 720" will be released that late. This is more my gut reeling, i think that the next incarnation of said consoles will be more like the fall of 2011. i don't think that MS will wait it out till 2013 and i think that nintendo will probably work on something a little more central to hardcore gamers while keeping the casual gamers they have collected this generation (or past or whatever you class the Wii as)

Lastly, someone mentioned "it will not help it compete as a games console." This new sku isn't ment to make it do that. This is more to compete with PS3 as a cheap blu-ray player.

Very Lastly, someone else mentioned "xbox division has not turned a profit." Recent MS press release would mirror that statement, i think the recent release stated that xbox division had "finally" turned a profit.

Fanboyism, i own a 360, i bought GTA IV 360. Pop up is an issue, especially noticable in the annihilator when flying round the city. I've Played the PS3 version and it is less of an issue, i didn't notice it. Both consoles have individual strong points, theres no need to flame one another over it. I like FPS's which is why i got the 360, but if like me Goldeneye on the N64 was your heroin, many of the members of that team are the guys behind the Haze game on PS3. And it looks incredible as a console FPS. PC gamers, i like ya, an i know what you'll say, but i find that currently i cannot afford the hardware for a Gaming rig, and consoles are my only option for now.


By xphile on 5/6/2008 6:40:01 AM , Rating: 2
I don't disagree with the thrust of yours or later comments. What I wrote has sort of been misconstrued - but my fault though.

Microsoft will fully embrace Blu-Ray - because they have to FOR MOVIE FORMATTING. On the game front their same unit will play whatever they have (past) and will (future) format their games in.

I never meant to imply they would use PS3 or BR formatting for all 360 or future GAMES - just that once they have the extra space Blu-Ray disc structure will give them (once they have to use it anyway now for movie playback) they will definitely use it over time. I totally agree it will not be compatible pretty much EVER with a Sony game disc format - that would be ludicrous.

I can see how my thoughts could be misread though.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By PAPutzback on 5/5/2008 10:09:29 AM , Rating: 2
The video is just fluff. Most people play online. So Cut scenes aren't necessary. for the few games that people play the single player story they can still fit enough cut scenes on a nine gig disc. How many people watch the special features on most movies or previews. I think most people skip to the title menu and watch the movie.


By Synastar on 5/5/2008 1:56:58 PM , Rating: 2
The reality is that most games nowadays look plenty good enough to do cutscenes in the game engine which greatly reduces the need for storage decimating FMV.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Hafgrim on 5/2/2008 11:04:38 PM , Rating: 2
Its not what it can do to "help 360 sales" but to hurt PS3 sales.. By Microsoft adding a bluray player to xbox, people who only had one choice of PS3 for bluray can now choose 360 instead if they so desire... As this move eliminates one of PS3's key selling points. Its a very smart MS move if you ask me. =)


By Belard on 5/9/2008 2:29:48 AM , Rating: 2
Considering that SONY is the primary owner of Blu-Ray (who has many partners), every xbox-blu-ray system sold means that Sony makes money. Just like every Sony PC or notebook sold, Microsoft makes money off of Sony... But also, SUN makes money off of Microsoft as well.

Part of the HD-DVD vs Blu-Ray war was also MS vs Sony. ASP vs JAVA... Sony winning the HD-Def Media format, meant that Microsoft LOST revenue from future HD-DVD movies and hardware that will never be made or continue to be made. Yep, HD-DVD's menu/GUI system is Microsoft, same format as that used on the XBOX. And SONY didn't want to be paying Microsoft (A direct competitor in consoles) royalties for their software... So the battle was more complicated than that.

Oh yeah - for others (not you): Both the PS3 and Xbox are promoted as consoles with media-center abilities (play movies, DVDs, music, pictures).


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By bplewis24 on 5/3/2008 2:27:01 AM , Rating: 2
Your argument might be airtight if not for the Rockstar reps already saying the storage capacity was a limiting factor in the specific game that you use as an example of why storage space doesn't matter: http://www.1up.com/do/feature?pager.offset=3&cId=3...

It kinda shoots a hole in your argument when the actual makers of the game don't agree with you.

quote:
One of the problems with the 360, and it affects games like Grand Theft Auto if you think about how much content we put in the actual machine, is the fact that they don't have a significantly larger storage medium than the previous systems. It's a slightly bigger DVD disc.


And this is not to even mention games like UTIII and MLB2k8 admitting to removing content to make the game fit on the 360 version, or PGR4 devs admitting they had to change the game content to compensate for lack of space. Nor will I even begin to get into games like Resistance, Uncharted and MGS4 using well over what's allowable on a DVD9. (See this link for a good interview with Naughty Dog President and former game designer: http://palgn.com.au/article.php?id=9225&rss=1&titl... )

Really, the 360 is a very good game machine and all...and the PS3 has had it's bumps in the road, but the one thing they got unequivocally correct is that blu-ray is necessary for current generation games. Not all, of course...but especially blockbuster titles, open world games and RPGs.

We really have to get past this discussion which isn't even debatable at this point.

Brandon


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By kellehair on 5/3/2008 1:59:41 PM , Rating: 2
I hadn't seen that quote before. I don't see how that changes my argument though. The fact remains that GTA4 was made to fit on a DVD. Could it have been better on a BD disc? Maybe. But we got the DVD-sized version anyway. Multiplatform games are king of the hill at the moment and unless the PS3 can drastically outsell the 360, those games will continue to be produced with DVDs in mind.

And I don't buy the arguments of other developers who claim to have filled up a BD disc. Even if they did fill one up it doesn't mean they needed to. A little optimization can go a long way. Once again I point to GTA4. Rockstar managed to create one of the biggest and best games in years and fit it all on a DVD. Are you telling me the folks at 2k couldn't get a baseball game onto one? That's laughable.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Belard on 5/3/2008 2:52:42 PM , Rating: 2
You can only optimize and compress so much...

No, they remove content, lower-quality textures and poloygons to make it fit onto a smaller disc.

Notice they have games for the PS2/360 and PSP & DS? Think the NintendDS version of COD4 is the same game and hi-rez details as found on the PS3/360?

So what developers do is make the high detailed version for PS3 then degrade details, smaller maps, less textures, lower quality audio, video-cut scenes reduced in quality, etc... And as we see from GTA4 - there is downloadable content to make up for the degrade.


By kellehair on 5/3/2008 5:23:00 PM , Rating: 1
Wrong!

What developers do is make the same game for both consoles. They could give a crap about making a slightly nicer version for the PS3.

And the DS and PSP can't handle hi-res textures so those games have to remade.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By bplewis24 on 5/3/2008 8:48:30 PM , Rating: 2
You have completely ignored all of the information available to you. GTAIV has implied they could not add all the game content they wanted to because of game size issues. PGR4 devs already admitted to the same (360 exclusive) http://www.destructoid.com/size-does-matter-projec... . URIII reps publicly stated when the 360 version of the game is released it would have content removed to allow it to fit on the DVD9. MLB2k8 reps made a public announcement about it (laugh at you want, but it is a fact, and laughing at it doesn't make it any less of a fact). These are only some of the games that we actually know about because these are actually documented circumstances with the game developers going on record. There could be more that we don't know of.

And you don't have to "buy the arguments of developers who claim to have filled up a BD disc" if you don't want to, but again, it doesn't make it any less of a fact. I strongly urge you to read the link to the interview with Naughty Dog's president. It clearly states they barely got everything to fit on a single-layer Blu-ray disc and the concessions they would have had to make to make it fit on a DVD9 at 7Gigs. Pertinent part:

quote:
The other thing that we've got going for us is the Blu Ray. We filled that thing up to 24 plus gigs, it was right at the end where we were literally running out of place where we were having to start pulling some stuff out, we ended up fortunately finding this unused cache of audio lines we were able to pull out to save some space so we could get everything in that we wanted to get in. I'm not going to stand here and say it would have been impossible to do on DVD but it would have been a different game, it really would have. It could have looked worse, we would have had to make concessions in terms of our compression. We would have had to spend a lot more developer resources focusing on how to get it on the disk when we could have been creating the game, making it more fun, making it more beautiful. So I'm really happy just to have that. We're still on single layer and this is our first game out of the gates. So I highly suspect that on our future games we'll even go to a double layer and we're going to even start putting more than 24-25 gigs into a single game.


If your response is to stick your head in the sand and ignore it, that's fine, but it doesn't represent a strong argument.

The "fact" that it was made to fit on a DVD is a non-sequitur. All games on the 360 have to fit on a DVD. By your logic that means that no game will ever need anything more, no matter how many devs come out publicly stating the storage medium had caused them to remove content or make concessions to the game. And the fact that Uncharted took up 24Gigs, Resistance took up 17Gigs and the rumor that MGS4 is set to take up nearly 50Gigs is not at all coincidental to them being PS3 exclusives.

Brandon


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By itzmec on 5/4/2008 8:45:29 AM , Rating: 3
crysis- 6gb


By AlphaVirus on 5/5/2008 11:25:43 AM , Rating: 2
Crysis - poor coding


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Devo2007 on 5/4/2008 11:28:23 AM , Rating: 2
Not all games have to be on a single DVD -- take a look at Lost Odyssey as an example (I believe it's 4 discs).

Of course, multiple discs is an inconvenience.


By AlphaVirus on 5/5/2008 11:29:24 AM , Rating: 2
Thats the reason I back MS going BluRay. Having to "Insert disc 2 now" is very annoying.
I could see it acceptable back in the PS1/2 days because we were only limited to DVD discs but if you have a much higher capacity then you should make use of it.

I do not know of any 360 game on multiple discs, but if there is then that should be a sign for MS to get updated.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By ViperROhb34 on 5/2/2008 9:19:57 PM , Rating: 2
Yes and you're right ! That why Bluray can work for 360.. because unlike Sony.. They will most likely offer Bluray in the most expensive 360.. So Bluray won't be shoved down your throat ...
Meaning = If i want to buy for gaming alone - I'll buy the bottom level 360 with standard DVD player .. If I defintely feel its worth it.. I'll get the Bluray enabled 360..


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By mcturkey on 5/2/2008 11:10:56 PM , Rating: 2
To expand upon what you're saying here, offering BR in the 360 only makes sense if it is at the same price as the cheapest PS3. Otherwise, they lose out on the argument of being a comparably priced BR player. Now, if this caused the price of the other three models to drop down as well, so much the better. I'd say MS would do well to cut their prices as much as they can afford to, because PS3 is starting to gain momentum.


By timmiser on 5/3/2008 3:14:07 AM , Rating: 2
I agree. If MS puts a BD player in the pro version, they really can only add $50 to the price to compete with the $399 PS3. The 360 pro would still have a smaller hard drive and no wireless but the bottom line is if MS isn't price competitive, what's the point?


By ViperROhb34 on 5/3/2008 6:09:06 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with you, but I honestly feel they will do a price drop.. why ??

Because this time of year if also suposed to be close to the time they have the die shrink.. the CPU has had one.. which lowered the price and made it run cooler - on top of that they redid the cooling which has lowered the RROD alot..

The big die shrink coming is the one on the GPU which will not only lower the price, but make 360 run even cooler and more reliable !

I think this is a good thing overall !


By Belard on 5/9/2008 2:50:35 AM , Rating: 2
Er... PS3 sales has exeeded the 360 sales on a month by month since January 2008.... it might have gone even a few times, but no. Watching the sales chart, the PS3 sales have JUMPED even more this past week. Again - I don't own either console, I will buy only one. And that will be a PS3 when my budget allows it (I need to get a new notebook and upgrade my PC first). With the release of GTA4, I want it today, I can buy it today.

Week of May 3rd 2008 sales:
Wii = 398,710 units in USA : Japan = 69.0k : Other = 199.9k
PS3 = 150,934 units in USA : Japan = 10.5k : Other = 197.4k
360 = 117,392 units in USA : Japan = 1.7k : Other = 144.7k

PS3 sales for the 1st 12months are on par with the 360's sales. At the adoption rate of the PS3, its predicted that the PS3 will surpass the 360 in about 18~24months. Not bad considering 360's 8million unit headstart.


By Locutus465 on 5/2/2008 11:29:50 PM , Rating: 2
Well for starters, the idea isn't to "expand gaming capabilities"... It's to remove the high def player check mark that the PS3 has over the 360. That's pretty much it.

Additionally, I think it's a bit premature to speckulate about price, for starters where in gods name are you getting $600 from?


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Pirks on 5/2/08, Rating: 0
RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By gerbintosh on 5/3/2008 12:24:08 AM , Rating: 5
Because it would ostracize the 360 biggest fan base, the 18mil owners of the DVD version. So what developers need to make two versions of the game, Blu/DVD? Or should Microsoft have people ship their 360 back for an upgrade for a cost? This new machine is just for people who were buying the PS3 for movies only at first. Now they have a choice of systems. This will not be feasible for 360 games until the next generation of Xbox. This is Just like how they screwed the pooch with the HDD.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Pirks on 5/3/08, Rating: 0
RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By SlyNine on 5/3/2008 1:34:37 AM , Rating: 2
umm, your last question points right back at your first one. stop talking in circles.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Pirks on 5/3/08, Rating: 0
RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By kyp275 on 5/3/2008 4:03:55 AM , Rating: 2
It's all very simple, developers don't like to spend big dollars to develop games that can only be played by limited number of the installed user base. Just because an external upgrade is available hardly means everyone, or indeed any substantial number of people will go out and actually purchase it.

How many mainstream x360 titles were released that requires a HDD to play? probably not very many, if any at all. Why? because the developer knows that not everyone's x360 have a HDD, therefore they don't want to make a game where they'll limit their own sale potential.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Pirks on 5/3/2008 5:17:42 AM , Rating: 1
Wait, wait - how is it possible then that people see some ubercool games like Halo and buy the whole console to play those games - and you're saying that if people see another even way way way cooler game like Halo 4 on bluray with superduper HD graphics and video and stuff - they will hesitate to pay another $100 for a piece of necessary hardware? How so?

People happily pay $300 and even more just to get console and play a cool game - and now you're saying they won't pay $100 to pay a ubermanubercool new sexy bluray all-HD game?

Your logic is kinda screwed, dontcha think? ;-)


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By winterspan on 5/3/2008 6:27:35 AM , Rating: 2
NO, his logic is not screwed. In fact, he is the *ONLY* one in this debate using even a SHRED of logic. I mean seriously, are you twelve years old, or just really dense?

Developers would NOT increase their costs by having to make two different versions of a game, one for DVD and one for Blu-ray. Likewise, It is even more moronic to posit that developers would create Blu-Ray-only games for the small base of XBox360 users who would own the newer model or any future external Blu-Ray add-on drive.

Regarding your other non-point, What percentage of users who purchased an xBox360 do you think did so just to play a single title? Obviously, that would be an extremely low number. Besides, that is not even relevant as to how many would actually purchase a new model or a BD add-on drive.


By winterspan on 5/3/2008 6:29:13 AM , Rating: 2
"Developers would NOT choose to increase their costs"


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By omnicronx on 5/3/2008 5:54:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Developers would NOT increase their costs by having to make two different versions of a game, one for DVD and one for Blu-ray.
How do you know? PC games were always available in two formats so that you dont need 5 discs, that did not seem to hurt them. They could merely charge 5 dollars more for the one disc BD version, that would more than make up for anything they lost for producing two versions. Now whether or not this ever happens is a different matter, as it is not up to the developers, MS holds the final say in regards to allowable game media, at this current juncture MS seems to be swaying towards DVD only.. Then again they also said they had no plans for a BD player ;)


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By kyp275 on 5/3/2008 11:10:35 PM , Rating: 1
the PC analogy is completely off-base here and you know it. Both DVD and CD version of the same PC game are identical after installed on the PC, the only difference being that you didn't have to swap discs during installation with the DVD version.

Making a DVD version of one game with normal graphics and a bluray version with enhanced visual/audio and contents is something else completely different. You're talking about what happens when a dev. makes a bluray-sized game and then releasing them on both formats, what the previous poster was arguing about was making two versions of the same game, a SD and HD version, if you will.


By omnicronx on 5/5/2008 9:08:52 AM , Rating: 2
I should have read deeper into the previous post, but I was not trying to imply there would be two different versions of the final product. I was merely saying that if devs wanted too they could have the identical game on one BD disc, so you do not have to change discs while playing. The furthest I could see it going is the BD version having uncompressed textures, similar to GTA4 on PS3 vs the 360, yet as nobody has noticed the difference, so I do not see the point.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By MMilitia on 5/3/2008 6:48:16 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, Priks is pretty much as wrong as it's possible to be in this case.

Developers wouldn't start adopting the Blu-Ray format for games because the vast majority of people wouldn't be able to play them. Saying that "OH EVERYONE CAN JUST BUY AN EXTERNAL DRIVE" is really stupid because for a start I'm sure that not everyone wants to buy a new driver just to play a handful of games and secondly I don't think it's even possible to stream game content off an external drive quickly enough to make it a viable option. There would need to be some kind of an install process, but considering most people's XBOXs only have a small hard drive they couldn't exactly dump a whole Blu-Ray disk's worth of content onto it.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By nvalhalla on 5/3/2008 8:49:57 AM , Rating: 2
This argument is moot. It has been done in the past, the recent past. Squenix released FF XI for the PS2, requiring a HDD. Sales weren't in the 10's of millions, certainly, but a major developer made a game requiring additional hardware none the less. I'm not saying that this will happen for the 360, but it has happened before and so is not impossible.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By JustTom on 5/3/2008 5:09:28 PM , Rating: 2
Of course it is not impossible, it is just darn unlikely. There MIGHT be a game or two produced on BD for the 360, but the odds are slim. And there certainly will not be a mass movement to develop 360 games that can only fit on BD because the market will be just too small.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Alpha4 on 5/5/2008 1:10:41 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Of course it is not impossible, it is just darn unlikely.
Just as Darn Unlikely as Blu-Ray coming to 360 in the first place?

I've already been surprised once, so at this point I don't trust my own logic to hold true. But if I had to take a stance again I'd argue that Xbox360 Blu-Ray content is a major possibility considering two factors:

A) MS intends to keep Xbox 360's shelf life significantly longer than its predecessor's, so there is much more time for production costs of any external drives to drop and for a BD-Rom userbase to establish itself.

B) Despite the history of marketing failures for console expansions, there are a couple noteworthy successes. The HDD for PS2's FF11 is one of them, but more imporantly, I think, is the N64's 4MB Expansion D-Ram module.
Both examples demonstrate that a killer app or apps CAN drive sales of add-ons, and in those cases users didn't even have the added value of extra media playback functionality to justify their purchases.

Now if SiN's comment is right...
quote:
This is more my gut feeling, but I think that the next incarnation of said consoles will be more like the fall of 2011. I don't think that MS will wait it out till 2013...
...Than (A) won't really matter. I feel the same way, but if we're wrong than I foresee some developers arranging bundle options with MS for blu-ray external drives in the near future.


By Alpha4 on 5/5/2008 1:12:40 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry, my above post was in reply to JustTom's post.


By omnicronx on 5/3/2008 6:24:49 PM , Rating: 2
*glances at title* It sounds like they are talking about an internal drive here. Unless they make an external drive it will not be possible for what you say to happen. Its one thing to have a game that requires buying an addon, but having to buy a new console? That would be out of the question.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By cmdrdredd on 5/3/2008 1:36:57 PM , Rating: 3
"It's all very simple, developers don't like to spend big dollars to develop games that can only be played by limited number of the installed user base. Just because an external upgrade is available hardly means everyone, or indeed any substantial number of people will go out and actually purchase it."

Tell that to the Crysis development team.


RE: Still somewhat useless to 360 users
By Synastar on 5/5/2008 2:22:59 PM , Rating: 2
That's the PC world. The comparison is invalid. Microsoft won't have games be on the BD format until the next generation of consoles. The reason? Beyond the obvious reasons of consumer betrayal, there's the fact that every Blu-ray copy of a game for the 360 would actually put money in Sony's pocket because they own the format and it's licensed. They're not going to allow Sony to profit from 360 games, period. As it is, they're going to be paying Sony just to put a BD drive in the 360. It will just be included in whatever they're paying Asus.


By Synastar on 5/5/2008 2:25:44 PM , Rating: 2
...not to mention the enormous class action lawsuit that would occur when a BD disc-only 360 game was released.


By Zarsky on 5/3/2008 5:14:48 AM , Rating: 2
I think they will integrate Blu-Ray into their next xbox revision codename "jesper" with the smaller GPU & CPU. That's how they keep the new SKU's price near the PS3's $400 price.


By FITCamaro on 5/3/2008 11:57:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Considering the price of the Elite to be $450, a BluRay version may cost upwards of $600....


I doubt this. Likely the Blu-ray equipped model will become the new Elite. And then they'll swap the current premium for something with a larger hard drive. Then hopefully, they'll give the Core the 20GB hard drive.

They really need to drop the cost of the 20GB hard drive to a $30-40 mark so its easily affordable to everyone. That way more developers will require it.

I'm just glad I bought the replacement warranty from best buy on my 360. I can take it back next spring saying its overheating, get my money back, and buy the new Blu-ray version.


By cmdrdredd on 5/3/2008 1:32:41 PM , Rating: 2
Not to mention that the 360 will not be able to decode and output TrueHD, DTS HD MA, and Uncompressed PCM audio. The system doesn't have the requirements for it. If it did, then you'd be watching HD DVD with TrueHD audio.


By rsasp on 5/3/2008 4:30:41 PM , Rating: 2
completely useless, would rather have an addon than build in.


No add-on?