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The Xbox 360's toasty GPU won't get a reprieve until late 2008

For those of you hoping to get an Xbox 360 with both a 65nm CPU and GPU, your wait is going to be a bit longer. The Mercury News' Dean Takahashi first brought us news of the Falcon motherboard that houses a 65nm CPU and 90nm GPU in July. Takahashi the following month reported that Xbox 360 consoles featuring the new motherboard and revised processor would begin shipping this fall.

While Xbox 360 consoles are starting to trickle into the retail market with 65nm processors and revised cooling, a new 65nm GPU die shrink won't arrive until late 2008 according to Takahashi.

The new Xbox 360 consoles coming late next year feature both a 65nm CPU and GPU will be codenamed Jasper. This would mark nearly a three-year gap between when the Xbox 360 was first released until a solution is finally presented for what has arguably been one of the most troublesome aspects of the console's design.

Many people have reported of DVD drives damaging game discs or failed HDDs, but the overwhelming majority of Xbox 360 failures have come at the hand of the dreaded Red Ring of Death (RRoD) which often points towards an overheated GPU.

"I don’t know why it will take Microsoft essentially three years to cost reduce the size of the graphics chip through a manufacturing shrink," said Takahashi. "Microsoft has had to divert a lot of engineers to debugging problems with Xbox 360 reliability. Even so, you would think that they would have moved faster, since the move to 65-nm graphics chip will likely be one of the best things they can do to improve the reliability."

Microsoft contends, however, that the new cooling solution provided with Falcon is sufficient to provide sufficient cooling for all internal Xbox 360 components. The Falcon cooling solution may be better than on previous Xbox 360 designs, but the solution to the main heat problem is nearly a year away.

"The Falcon board will likely give off less heat," continued Takahashi. "But the real serious heat saver looks like it will come with Jasper."

Reduced thermals aren't the only benefit of the upcoming Jasper-based Xbox 360s. Switching to the 65nm CPU has allowed Microsoft to reduce manufacturing costs for the consoles and cut costs for consumers. Making the move to a 65nm GPU will cut costs even further and could lead to another round of price cuts according to Takahashi.

"If I were Microsoft, I would try to pull in the date of Jasper as soon as possible," Takahashi added. "What they need right now is a lower cost so that they can be more competitive against the Wii and so they leave no openings for Sony."

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Not so sure about this
By Bioniccrackmonk on 10/11/2007 9:24:53 AM , Rating: 5
Switching to the 65nm CPU has allowed Microsoft to reduce manufacturing costs for the consoles and cut costs for consumers

The only way MS will cut prices further is if Sony comes in with another. From what I have seen so far, MS has just been trying to keep a lower price then Sony has had.

Disclaimer: I seem to get voted down when I only talk about the article at hand and not mention every other company in the world that operates using this business model. So here it is, every company in the world that is in competetion with the same type of products usually operate on this model.

RE: Not so sure about this
By The Sword 88 on 10/11/2007 9:46:10 AM , Rating: 2
I agree with you MS does seem to try to keep its prices below Sony's but I think it is time for them to try and undercut the Wii and truly dominate this generation of consoles

RE: Not so sure about this
By Lonyo on 10/11/2007 10:21:28 AM , Rating: 3
They already have undercut the Wii in the UK.
The Xbox 360 Arcade(?) is priced lower than the Wii, and the Premium can be hard (or has been available) for little more than the Wii (albeit at a sale price) recently.
£174 for the 360, £180 for the Wii, £195 (sale price) for the 360.

RE: Not so sure about this
By FITCamaro on 10/11/2007 10:24:53 AM , Rating: 3
For the Core yes I'm sure their ultimate goal is to be priced lower than the Wii. For the high end they will want to stay cheaper than the PS3. But with a 40GB PS3 looming with a $400 price tag, they will need another price cut as the Elite is $450. They will need to get the Elite down to $400 or cheaper which means the Core and Premium will take another cut.

I think the prices should be $250 for the Core, $300 for the Premium, and $350 for the Elite. Also the Premium needs to get a bigger hard drive. Bump it to 40GB and you've got the same as the cheaper PS3 for $100 less. So Core to Premium you're paying for wireless controller, headset, and hard drive. Premium to Elite you're paying for style(black color) and larger hard drive.

RE: Not so sure about this
By joemoedee on 10/11/2007 11:00:43 AM , Rating: 1
You really cannot compare the Elite with the new 40GB PS3.

Here's how I see the marketing angle...

The new Core "Arcade" system, designed to compete against the Wii.

"Premium" goes up against the 40GB PS3.

"Elite" goes up against the 80GB PS3.

In all circumstances, the prices are currently quite comparable. (Excluding the whole Blu Ray vs HD DVD angle, just gaming system to gaming system)

The only one that needs to drop in price is the Arcade model to be comparable in price today to the Wii in the US.

The difference of hard drive is IMO not big enough for the price difference between the Premium and Elite. I'd personally like to see a bundled extra controller, game, and WiFi adapter for the Elite model.

RE: Not so sure about this
By FITCamaro on 10/11/2007 11:20:22 AM , Rating: 2
Well for the holidays we're already getting two games with the Elite and Premium. The wi-fi adapter wouldn't be a bad addition though. I personally don't care about wifi though. I don't need my internet connection getting interrupted when someone uses the phone (assuming 2.4GHz cordless phone) or the microwave. Both interrupted my connection in college at my apartment with roommates.

RE: Not so sure about this
By Murst on 10/11/2007 11:57:06 AM , Rating: 2
Why would you buy a 2.4 GHz cordless phone if you have wi-fi set up?

Its not like it isn't advertised. I just went to best buy the other day to look at phones, and they had charts all over the phone section about what phone to get if you have wireless networking installed. The phone prices seem to vary with the features too, not really with frequency.

Personally, I find wireless a great thing. It would be a complete pain to rewire my house so that I can get a cable down into the living room.

I guess in a college situation where one person brins a router, another brings a phone, and a third person tries to use it... you could run into conflicts. But I'm guessing such situations are more the exception rather than the rule.

RE: Not so sure about this
By afkrotch on 10/14/2007 9:04:20 PM , Rating: 2
Doesn't even have to have all ppl in the same room. It could be the guy next door with a 2.4 ghz phone.

I stick with wired, simply for higher speeds. Not such a big deal for consoles, but for comp to comp transfers, 1000 mbps is ftw!

RE: Not so sure about this
By clovell on 10/11/2007 11:58:33 AM , Rating: 2
That's why I ditched my 2.4 GHz phone and went with DECT (1.9GHz) - too much interference on the line. The phones are awesome, too - all digital.

RE: Not so sure about this
By BWAnaheim on 10/11/2007 12:38:14 PM , Rating: 2
The XBOX360 WiFi adapter includes 802.11b/g (2.4GHz) and 802.11a (5.8 GHz). I have a wireless access point that handles both A and G, and run the XBOX at 5.8 GHz. This reduces the interference potential with our 2.4 GHz phones, Bluetooth, and microwave ovens. I have seen people complain about the list price of the WiFi adapter, and I think that they overlook the fact that it is a dual-band device.

Perhaps if Microsoft released a single-band device for less money or included a single-band device in the Elite, people would complain less. However, I like being able to run at 5.8, because no other 802.11a systems are visible in my neighborhood. Sure, I would have liked a lower cost, but I also had to pay more for my access point to achieve what I thought was a more optimal wireless solution.

If I am not wrong, the WiFi adapter in the PS3 is 2.4 GHz only, which means that it would be more prone to interference.

RE: Not so sure about this
By softwiz on 10/11/2007 2:47:39 PM , Rating: 2
Why not just get a 5.8Ghz phone instead ?

RE: Not so sure about this
By 9nails on 10/11/2007 9:59:30 PM , Rating: 2
That's what I did!

But I also ran a CAT5 cable to my Xbox 360. Problem solved, and improved upon for free. (The cable was included!)

WiFi is a simplex network with too many collisions to be good for gaming. My Wii is using the WiFi, but I don't go on-line with that other than to download VC games.

RE: Not so sure about this
By BWAnaheim on 10/17/2007 11:13:32 PM , Rating: 2
I have other 2.4 GHz devices in the house, and due to the terrible layout of this KB home, where the tv needs to reside is virtually impossible to reach with a CAT-5 cable (outside wall, no basement, no accessible attic space in that area). WiFi 5.8 was the simplest solution to minimize the overall interference profile. Besides, the 2.4 GHz phones were not broken...

RE: Not so sure about this
By wallijonn on 10/11/2007 6:17:06 PM , Rating: 2
The new Core "Arcade" system, designed to compete against the Wii.

They could start by including 512MB of internal RAM (just like the Wii, I believe) to save games. Then one wouldn't need to keep buying external mem sticks. So long as you need to buy memory the Wii will Wii in the consumer's mind.

RE: Not so sure about this
By Locutus465 on 10/11/2007 10:50:29 PM , Rating: 1
Honestly I think this is where microsoft is better... True you only get the 256MB card, however with the Wii the 512MB is shared between OS and everything else, so you effectivly get less than the 512MB... Also, the SD card slot on the Wii is virtually worthless... You really can't tell your system to save games there, you really can't store VC games there... It's stupid, I hope nintendo fixes this oversite soon. With x-box from day 1 you've been able to simply choose whatever storage device to put arcade games/save games on... much better solution IMO.

RE: Not so sure about this
By afkrotch on 10/14/2007 9:09:23 PM , Rating: 2
Ya, you can tell it memory card or hard drive. Let's leave out USB devices, cause if someone can easily connect an external 1 TB hdd and save everything to that, they wouldn't buy the overpriced 120 gb hdd. With Xbox 360 from day 1, you've been grabbing your ankles with storage options.

RE: Not so sure about this
By Murst on 10/11/07, Rating: 0
Undercut Wii?
By Rotkiv on 10/11/2007 10:16:23 AM , Rating: 2
No, I think there are very few people who would want to bye a 360 but bought a Wii instead. They are very different consoles and mostly, very different markets(and I am talking about the parent who bought a Wii for their kids).

RE: Undercut Wii?
By Locutus465 on 10/11/2007 11:25:30 AM , Rating: 4
Wii's aren't just being bought by parents, I have a Wii-60 my self... The Wii is an excellent system to own, particularly for social gatherings.

RE: Undercut Wii?
By helios220 on 10/11/2007 11:44:07 AM , Rating: 4
Exactly, I always find it kind of amusing how people still try to insinuate that kids are the only ones who are buying Wii's.

A Wii is great for kids, but it's also great for parties. Girls like to play the Wii, it's still fun (albeit much more dangerous as I've found out) to play while drinking and great for when you just want some casual fun. It's not going to be my hardcore system like my PC is for me and the 360 is for many others... but let's just say that chicks weren't showing up at my apartment and asking if they could play Command & Conquer, they like their Wii and that's cool with me.

RE: Undercut Wii?
By psyph3r on 10/11/2007 11:44:40 AM , Rating: 2
that and Women of all ages love them.

RE: Undercut Wii?
By Murst on 10/11/2007 12:00:52 PM , Rating: 2
Although I've never seen anyone substitute a Wii for a 360, I've seen people substitute a 360 for a Wii last Xmas. They waited in line to get a Wii, they sold out, and the people ended up buying a 360.

360 Problems
By mmntech on 10/11/2007 12:53:59 PM , Rating: 4
I think one of the big problems with the 360 itself is the case design. It has two small fans for cooling. They look to be about 40-50mm ones mounted at the back of the case. Putting in some high airflow blowers or even a cool air intake fan would probably go a long way to cooling the console. It's well known that the PowerPC architecture and ATI's high end R500s are hot processors. Why would they expect that two tiny fans would be enough? PCs running similar hardware usually have big fans galore.

I don't think Microsoft has really solved any of the problems with the 360 yet, though they are making slow progress. This is one of the reasons I've kept away from the 360. In fact, Daily Tech reported back in July that failure rates could still be as high as 25-33%, or up to one in three units. When you consider that some 11 million have been sold, that's a lot. That's far from acceptable when the industry average is roughly 2-5%. Maybe my standards are too high, but when I put $400 down on an item, I don't want to play guessing games as to whether it's a lemon or not.

RE: 360 Problems
By FITCamaro on 10/11/2007 1:03:29 PM , Rating: 2
The heat issues are largely solved now.

My Elite isn't even a Falcon model and it runs fairly cool and quiet.

RE: 360 Problems
By softwiz on 10/11/2007 2:42:05 PM , Rating: 2

RE: 360 Problems
By 9nails on 10/11/2007 9:53:25 PM , Rating: 2
My Halo Edition 360 has ran flawlessly since it came home. I've put it through a few warm afternoons over 80° F in the living room, and it still ran like a champ. My home isn't likely to get that warm again since my AC unit needed a capacitor, and this is fixed now.

RE: 360 Problems
By afkrotch on 10/14/2007 9:18:33 PM , Rating: 2
Only took almost 2 years to get to this point and even then, those consoles are still failing.

Google Xbox 360 Halo rrod. Guess what? It's happening and we still are 1 year away from an actual fix. All these stupid duct tape type fixes for the system.

Well have 45nm PS3 before we have a complete 65nm Xbox 360.

RE: 360 Problems
By glennpratt on 10/13/2007 2:55:32 PM , Rating: 2
The fans are dual 60mm and they can move plenty of air.

The problem is serious but the fans, case design, etc aren't it. The CPU/GPU and heatsinks just aren't sturdy enough and they can seperate. More airflow would be a band aid at best.

Microsoft seems to have things under control at the moment as the Elite's and Halo editions don't seem to be going back in droves. Let's hope.

it's fine as it is
By bigpow on 10/11/2007 12:50:23 PM , Rating: 1
I bought my premium last X-mas at $300 (after $100 rebate) and I've been abusing it (hint: monthly game rentals)
It's as fine as the first day I got it. Not a single problem.

There you go, at least one guy not crying RRoD or scratched disc.

As far as pricing point, I believe MS has its own reasons.
They must be doing market comparison study continuously, not just speculating or making assumptions.

I think when the barrage of good PS3 games are looming on the horizon, we'd see another price cut (or bonus bundle, or whatever) from MS.

As far as Wii, I don't think it's on the same playing field. It'd be silly for Xbox 360 to stoop as low as Wii.
One way to do it, is by remaking the original Xbox, make it Xbox Live Arcade compatible, slap some gimmicks (copy that Wii sensor & remote), price it $150 and call it a day.

RE: it's fine as it is
By softwiz on 10/11/2007 2:40:49 PM , Rating: 2
Well if the rumors are true about the "Core" sku being replaced by a new one called "Xbox 360 Arcade" @ $279 then that's pretty close to the Wii's price. There may also be plenty of stores selling it for below retail, $249 for example.

This unit differs from the original core by way of an HDMI port / cable, 256MB memory card (still no HD, therefore no BC), and a wireless controller.

RE: it's fine as it is
By softwiz on 10/11/2007 3:48:24 PM , Rating: 2
Scratch that. It comes with composite cables instead.

Process shrinks are not easy
By cheburashka on 10/11/2007 1:47:58 PM , Rating: 2
Just because Intel does it rather regularly, do not for one second think shrinking a chip with a new process is a simple matter.

RE: Process shrinks are not easy
By afkrotch on 10/14/2007 11:23:02 PM , Rating: 2
Microsoft isn't the one shrinking the chip. IBM is the one who creates the triple-core PowerPC proc they use. Guess what? IBM has been doing die shrinks for many of years.

Guess what else? IBM is already working on 45nm die shrinks and plan to have a facility in 2008. Current chips are already on 65nm.

GPUs are a different story. As ATI and NVIDIA aren't in charge of the process, they really don't have control over when they can get a die shrink. They do use TSMC which is already on 65nm.

Much like Intel and IBM, TSMC is working on 45nm right now.

MS should keep the savings
By 9nails on 10/11/2007 9:45:11 PM , Rating: 2
For those of you who think that MS should lower the cost of the console with the money saved by producing the extra CPU's per wafer, I'd say that they should pocket the savings on the hardware sales and instead lower the fee's to license games.

Nintendo's President, Satoru Iwata, had said long ago that he would lower license fee's for the Wii as the console is cheaper to manufacture while MS and Sony had to raise theirs because their systems are more expensive to manufacture. Developers are complaining that it costs too much to develop HD ready games any ways. In the case of Capcom's Monster Hunter 3, it was said that the cost to develop was so significant that the platform switch from PS3 to Wii was necessary. Game developers need incentive. Proven with the Wii, next generation graphics are not a major selling point since gamers are also looking for inexpensive games too.

I'd continue to argue that the majority of console gamers don't have HD which would strengthen my argument against developing for it.

RE: MS should keep the savings
By afkrotch on 10/14/2007 11:31:35 PM , Rating: 2
And PC games sit stably at $50, yet provide much higher graphics quality than any console game. Not to mention, those games are created for multiple hardware platforms, as opposed to a single one.

Why is that? Maybe less work into optimizing games for a specific set of hardware. The pro and con of a console. A game can look better on lower hardware, but you have to put in a lot more time to make it so. Maybe cause most companies create their own game engines instead of simply licensing one out for their game.

Next year I guess.
By Mitch101 on 10/11/2007 11:44:37 AM , Rating: 2
I want one and will get one but my equipment is located in my hallway closet so it gets a little warm in there. I really need the 360 to be a cool running box.

In the mean time I think there are plenty of good PC games coming soon to keep me busy and I look forward to having a wider selection of bargain 360 games when the time is right.

Maybe I will get lucky and by next year a HD-DVD drive will be internal by then.

xbox360 now 249 at office depot
By ChipDude on 10/14/2007 12:57:27 PM , Rating: 2
Looks like PS3 is going going going, well at least going to have to drop their price even more. I'm off to get one now!

By NuclearDelta on 10/11/2007 3:38:05 PM , Rating: 1
Balmer's Laws of Commotion:

An product in motion, will stay in motion unless acted upon by an internal monetary source.

Force = m x a = monopoly x attorneys

For every class action, there is an equal and opposite revenue subtraction.

For the law of universal adaptation, it is described by the constant capital "G" and has value of (1) / (6.673 E -11) and has units of [(Knightly-Gates)*(Software)^2] / (Money)^3

window of opportunity
By psyph3r on 10/11/07, Rating: -1
RE: window of opportunity
By Inkjammer on 10/11/2007 9:47:27 AM , Rating: 2
My Elite runs fairly cool, especially compared to my first gen, launch day 360 (although, the optical drive is much louder!). I never had a single issue with my launch 360, and it's been running in the extreme heat of Kyrgyzstan for over half a year. It's often 100+ degrees out here in the summer with no internal air conditiong. So, the 360 is mysterious. Some can die in ideal conditions, others can take brutal punishments. It's a coin toss.

But, regardless, I don't see this as some magical key to success for Sony. Given Microsoft's lineup of games, I see this as further reasonings that people are going to take the Wii60 route. It's all about the games and the price, not the hardware.

Until the PS3 gets the titles... they're gonna gonna get the movement they so desperately need. It's as simple as that.

RE: window of opportunity
By weskurtz0081 on 10/11/2007 10:04:43 AM , Rating: 2

Do you even know who makes the gpu's? If so, please explain how MS is in control over when the shrink happens. I am pretty sure that in order for MS to install the 65nm CPU's into the machine, whoever is fabing the ATI gpu's (TMC I guess) would have to be producing them at that node. If no 65nm CPU's being made, how would they put them in the box?

Also, one thing I find VERY curious, ATI is moving from 80nm to 55nm. Why wouldn't they just be throwing 55nm gpu's in the unit? I know it's not a mainstream ATI part, IE. a pc gpu.... but I would think they would run all of them at the same process.

RE: window of opportunity
By weskurtz0081 on 10/11/2007 10:15:23 AM , Rating: 2
nm.... I didn't realize they have some 65nm parts out in the pc market. The only ones that ATI is producing at 65nm right now are the lower end parts. Still doesn't change the fact that in order them the gpu's to be used, they have to be produced.

RE: window of opportunity
By FITCamaro on 10/11/2007 10:18:08 AM , Rating: 3
ATI does not own the rights to the silicon for the 360's GPU. ATI designed it for Microsoft but Microsoft owns the silicon. They did this to prevent another issue like what happened with Nvidia on the original Xbox.

But you are right, Microsoft does not make GPU's. They will have to contract with AMD/ATI again for a 65nm respin of the chip. Whoever is producing the chip can't just start making it at a smaller process.

It is curious though why it'll take so long. My only thought is that ATI is to busy to do it at the moment. I guess Microsoft could hire someone else to redesign it for 65nm, but I doubt they would.

RE: window of opportunity
By DingieM on 10/11/2007 10:28:36 AM , Rating: 2
I'm almost sure its because of the EDRam won't get to 65nm that fast

RE: window of opportunity
By Murst on 10/11/2007 10:41:01 AM , Rating: 2
I'm almost sure its because of the EDRam won't get to 65nm that fast

RAM is probably much easier to shrink than all the other logic circuits, since RAM would mostly just be repeating patterns of gates.

Also, unless it is the RAM that is causing the majority of heat generation, MS could shrink everything else and leave the RAM as it is. Its not like the RAM would need to be on the same node size.

RE: window of opportunity
By psyph3r on 10/11/2007 10:34:35 AM , Rating: 2
I can understand if they can't procure the manufactures to do what they need in the time frame they need, but they shouldn't have released the console in the condition it was in the first place in my opinion. surely some Q and A would produce all of the problems that more than half of all 360 owners are experiencing. Owning a console should never be coin toss as to whether it dies within the first 3 years...and its only a matter of time before it fails after that.

I should be able to let my kids play the consoles i did. There's no nostalgia if you can't find a version of the console that works 5-10 years after it is released. Where's the fun in that?

RE: window of opportunity
By weskurtz0081 on 10/11/2007 10:40:26 AM , Rating: 3
I agree with that comment more. I am not trying to proclaim MS's innocence here, but I am really curious what the avg. time between failure has been for the 360 users. The reason I ask is because if MS made the unit and tested it for say 6 months for reliability, and the average time between failures is higher than that, then it is plausible they didn't experience this.

I find it hard to believe that they didn't see some kind of heat issue with the units. But at the same time I doubt they would have decided to start selling the units if they knew of the problem was as severe as it turned out to be.

RE: window of opportunity
By joemoedee on 10/11/2007 11:08:53 AM , Rating: 3
I doubt we'll ever know.

I think the system was rushed to market relatively quickly, which may have caused some of the issues with the system. However, I know there's lots of people that have not had a single issue with their system. It's quite random.

This isn't a new issue, tons of people had failed PS1's and PS2's. I think it's so talked about now because it seems that the majority of forum users talk about the systems more than the games nowadays.

That doesn't say much for the current state of gaming, now does it? =/

RE: window of opportunity
By retrospooty on 10/11/2007 11:57:52 AM , Rating: 2
" This is going to seriously carve out some territory for wii and ps3 to grab up"

I dont know about that... Does anyone even have data on the failure rate with the falcon (65nm CPU and reworked cooling solution) at this point? 99.9% of Xbox customers couldnt care less if it's a 90 or 65nm GPU, they care if it fails or if it runs. If the new cooling solution resolves the heat failures, 65nm is irrelevant except for the lower cost for MS, and MAYBE that would make them drop the cost for consumers, but that is more driven by market competition than actual cost of the Xbox itself.

RE: window of opportunity
By Murst on 10/11/2007 12:05:58 PM , Rating: 2
I'll be getting a 360 pretty soon, and I'm under the impression (may be completely wrong) that MS has fixed the issues with the 360 already. If I thought the 360 was going to break, I certainly wouldn't be buying it.

I guess I would find it incredible that MS spent a billion dollars in replacement costs without actually fixing the issue in new models.

RE: window of opportunity
By Rampage on 10/11/2007 4:44:19 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, the time to buy a 360 is now with the bundle deal coming at the end of this month.

RE: window of opportunity
By Murst on 10/11/2007 4:58:13 PM , Rating: 2
Although the bundle is nice, it's not really what I was looking for as I already have M:UA for the PS3. However, I'm hoping that on black friday or so I'll be able to grab a 360 w/ an extra controller due to in-store promotions.

The only reason why I'm looking at the 360 right now is Mass Effect... if reviews for it don't turn out that great, I'll prob not get the 360.

RE: window of opportunity
By Rampage on 10/11/2007 7:41:02 PM , Rating: 3
I will probably order mine online and avoid paying tax. This almost equals out to an extra controller.
Unfortunately I can't look at manufacturing dates but by the end of this month I'm hoping most are Falcons.
I'm not incredibly excited about MUA, but its still another free game. Forza2 is well worth it and makes up for MUA easily.

Not that MUA is a bad game, from the reviews I've read its one of the best "RPGs" of the year. So I welcome its addition and will enjoy playing it I'm sure.

I'd rather have Dead Rising + Forza2 even though DR is at rock bottom pricing.

Forza2 + MUA is probably overall a bit better bundle considering I can pickup DR for $30.
I'm pretty proud of their ability to not give me some crappy soon-to-be last year's sports game.

IMO, Forza2 is a "must have" on 360 and MUA is 'merely' a Great Game.

"We don't know how to make a $500 computer that's not a piece of junk." -- Apple CEO Steve Jobs

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