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Rumored new manufacturing process would be a breakthrough in notebook design

Every time a new Apple press event is announced, the speculation runs rampant. This time the press event isn’t even announced and speculation is brewing quickly.

According to 9to5mac, Apple will unveil new MacBook's at a press event to be held on October 14. The fact that new MacBook's are supposed to be coming is only half the rumor. What's making some of the biggest waves is the report that the new MacBook cases will be machined out of one solid chunk of aluminum.

The system is already being called the MacBook Brick as an ode to the solid brick-like metal chunk the new and revolutionary process is said to start with. The Brick is cut out with lasers and jets of water to produce a one piece, seamless case for the new MacBook systems.

The new manufacturing process is supposed to make design changes faster and allow Apple to reap cost savings, which will drive the price of the Mac notebooks down. 9to5mac says its source insists that the rumor of the new manufacturing system for the MacBook computers is accurate.

Advantages to the new manufacturing process will include no need to bend the metal, which reduces weak spots and folds and eliminates the need for screws to hold the case together. This should make for a sleeker looking computer that is lighter and stronger than previous MacBook designs. This is all speculation at this point and we can only wait and see if the mythical press event on the 14 of this month materializes.

The last MacBook update added new processors and a few tweaks -- nothing as interesting as this new design process.





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Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 3:59:17 PM , Rating: 4
OK, as a youth, I worked in a machine shop for years, and I'm not sure how one would cut out a laptop from a solid chunk of aluminum. Not to mention how expensive the manufacture this way would get.

Water jets are used for cutting, lasers as well. Not sure what magic factories Apple has, but I have yet to see something that can hog out the center of a brick, without it being in pieces first. Even the best 5 axis machines can't do this, so I would be interested to see what they actually are doing here.




RE: Apple has magic now?
By mindless1 on 10/6/2008 4:05:28 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed, it seems likely the top will be left open with a plate over it.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By 3DoubleD on 10/6/2008 4:39:49 PM , Rating: 5
I also agree. This method would not change anything. You would have the bottom piece with a lid (keyboard, palm rest, touch pad, ect). Since laptops are already made like this... milling out a brick of aluminum to accomplish this goal instead of stamping and folding is pretty ludicrous. It would be insanely expensive and a huge waste of time and energy (and I mean in the anti-green sense waste of energy). To top it off, why would they want to make it stronger? I can't imagine any rabid mac users breaking their macbook sending emails, watching youtube, and surfing facebook (I can't think of anything else people use macbooks for???). If they were really serious about anything, they would build the laptop out of carbon fiber, it would be light, strong, with slight heat conductivity (less than aluminum though). They could even paint it white or black! I have a black ASUS laptop with carbon fiber metal alloy for the case... AMAZINGLY light and strong http://www.topmicrousa.com/asusz33a.html. Apple should catch up, I bought mine in 2005.

I really hope this is just a rumor, because it would top the "Stupid things about Apple does that Mac fans love" chart. I'm sure my old housemate would love it.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 4:47:15 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed, carbon fiber would be the way to go. I saw that Asus before, loved the idea. But, I'm a fan of Asus products. I don't understand how using metals for something is a progression when metal isn't needed.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By snownpaint on 10/6/2008 6:08:38 PM , Rating: 2
Our R&D team makes complex markers(guns) out of blocks of AL for the paintball industry. (grooves and holes drilled 4" down a .7" hole) I have seen some amazing stuff made on a CNC / lath machine out of a block of AL. With the right case design the laptop could be made from one block, but it would have to have a large opening on top (keyboard opening) for the mill head to carve out.. However, I do not think this is efficient (lots of waste) or any stronger then a well assembled case.

Then there are the 3d printing prototype machines which can make amazing stuff the CNC can't do. Parts assembled inside parts, just not very strong polymer and not metal..

Carbon Fiber is a easy way to go, and much more cost effective for the Qtys they are running especially after making the mold..

But if they are going for colors, you can't go wrong with anodizing and laser engraving AL.. the possibilities in design are amazing and durable.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By BladeVenom on 10/6/2008 7:13:03 PM , Rating: 2
Color anodizing would look great on a laptop.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By DigitalFreak on 10/7/2008 8:06:42 AM , Rating: 5
Apple = form over function


RE: Apple has magic now?
By DeepBlue1975 on 10/8/2008 10:13:26 AM , Rating: 2
Correction:

Apple = form WITHOUT function

It's like an airhead stunning, easy going (to bed) girl who just can't make a single complete sentence out of her mind and all she seems to think about is her looks.

You'd like to be intimate with her just a couple of times because she is stunning, but you wouldn't wanna engage in any kind of serious or long term relationship with her, because she bores you to bed as soon as she steps out of the bed.

Same happens with nowadays Mac Hardware: insanely expensive standard PCs with sometimes seriously reduced functionality packed inside an awesome looking case.

The advantages Mac OS could have vs Windows will never be enough to offset the price because, at the core, you know it's just another PC (unlike some years ago).

That unless, of course, you need to use very specific software that only runs on Mac OS.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By frobizzle on 10/13/2008 12:28:29 PM , Rating: 2
Are you referring to the Mac Book or Sarah Palin?? The description fits both to a tee!


RE: Apple has magic now?
By paydirt on 10/7/2008 10:52:00 AM , Rating: 2
I gotta agree that I see this as possible and don't see how it will save Apple money (unless they can recycle all the scrap aluminum). There's potential for the laptops to simply look and feel awesome.

If anyone has ever seen the computers make custom wheels for Orange County Choppers (motorcycles), they can see the potential here.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Ricklar on 10/6/2008 6:53:50 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Agreed, carbon fiber would be the way to go.

How would carbon fiber be the way to go? Does carbon fiber dissipate heat good? NO. Is carbon fiber cheaper than aluminum? NO. Can carbon fiber be easily working into a laptop case on a mass scale? NO.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/08, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has magic now?
By mindless1 on 10/6/2008 8:48:05 PM , Rating: 3
While I agree that people won't want the laptop heating up on the exterior to the extent it would if the exterior were used as a heatsink, you are incorrect about the general cooling benefits of doing so.

Metal of sufficient thickness without fins can still be a fine heatsink due to the large surface area of the entire case. You can still have forced air across it because a fan that sucks in air someone then blows it out in the opposite side is moving air over that casing IF it is designed to do so.

You wrote "ranther than just heat everything up" but that is the idea of a heatsink, to create a thermal gradient. SOmething with high density due to small dimensions like an engine will need increased surface area for more effective cooling but an entire outside case on a laptop already has more surface area than any heatsink you could reasonably put inside of one.

Sorry but the dumb part is your inability to grasp cooling design, given enough surface area you don't even need active airflow at all and indeed there are laptops now without fans. The entire case of a laptop is enough to cool a moderate CPU, except for the issue you already mentioned that people won't want to be holding or placing on their lap a hot case. Because of that, yes plastic is the cost effective choice most popular today.

Even then, inside you often find secondary heatsinks that are little more than flat metal without significant fins or fans for that 'sink. A laptop external case is potentially multiple times larger and more effective compared to these existing 'sinks already used in laptops.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/08, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has magic now?
By mindless1 on 10/6/2008 11:43:47 PM , Rating: 3
No, the opposite. I'm saying you are wrong about your heatsink ideas and the main problem is it could heat up the case enough to make handling it or putting it on one's lap uncomfortable.

Fins are more effective given the same 2 dimensional area for the heatsink, but when the entire case is the 'sink it is the equivalently larger surface area too. That is the only reason you see finned 'sinks, that cheaper non-finned would be too large to fit in the available space. There is no available space limit when the enclosure itself is the sink and is so large just to have room for a given screen dimension and keyboard width.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Cullinaire on 10/7/2008 2:33:13 AM , Rating: 2
Now would be a perfect time to introduce the iMelamine laptop, what with all the free publicity you'd get at this point in our history.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By randomly on 10/7/2008 9:28:59 AM , Rating: 2
You don't have a clear understanding of heat transfer and heatsink/system design for laptops. Do a little research.

Besides that, Do you think you are smarter than the engineers at apple? Do you think they don't understand thermal design? Do you think they don't understand manufacturing costs? Would management in the company allow a non-economical manufacturing technique be implemented?

They know a great deal more than you do, they don't make obvious engineering/production mistakes. They are vastly better informed on all aspects of the design and manufacturing than you are. You are jumping to all kinds of lame conclusions with insufficient information.

Ignorance breeds confidence, and you are so very confident.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/7/08, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has magic now?
By randomly on 10/7/2008 10:17:17 AM , Rating: 3
Many laptops get hot, not just apple's. It's a general issue. Higher peformance cpu/gpu the more heat it generates.

There are limited ways of getting rid of the heat. Heat sink and fan on the CPU but you don't want the fan too loud and you have to deal with probability of the vents being restricted or blocked.

Other components generate heat in the system. Hard drives, backlight supplies, charging circuits/controllers, power supply/regulators, DRAM, North and Southbridge chips, not just the CPU. That heat has to go somewhere also. Do you put a fan and heatsink on them too? or couple the heat to the case?
Dumping some of this heat into the case becomes very advantageous in the overall system design, and if you want a higher performing laptop it's a necessity.

Give me a single example where Apple ever implemented a production technique that was poorly cost effective.

Certainly there is incompetence in engineering and management in companies. Apple however has a record of one of the best, if not the best, industrial design groups in the industry. They may occasionally make poor product choices, but their product designs are almost without exception top notch and often leading edge.

To jump to the conclusion on very limited information that they are making huge mistakes in thermal design and production techniques is arrogance on your part. If I were you I would keep silent until more information is forth coming.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/7/08, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has magic now?
By randomly on 10/7/2008 11:28:02 AM , Rating: 4
Your statement is gibberish.

Obviously you have no engineering training and have no clue how thermal design actually works.
I think it best you remain silent on the subject until you educated yourself on the field.

High strength steels can have a better strength to weight ratio than most aluminum alloys. However for equivalent structures you can end up with the steel so thin that it is difficult to work or attach too. They also have different failure and damage modes. The aluminum has much higher thermal conductivity, and coupled with the increased thickness of the solution provides a much better thermal solution.

In weight critical applications like rockets what do they make the propellant tanks from? Steel? no, Aluminum.

You keep repeating this 'form over function' mantra with no clear example of what you are talking about. Give me an example in an existing apple product where significant functionality was actually sacrificed for a better form.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By audiomaniaca on 10/11/2008 11:02:56 AM , Rating: 2
Oh yes, I can give many examples.

The ridiculously located usb ports at the back of the iMacs. They are simply ridiculous. Every time I need to plug anything in and out, it requires me to turn the (huge 24 inches) computer in 60 degrees and mess the table up.

The ridiculously shaped hamburger mouse from the first iMacs
That was a real classic of stupidity over functionality.

The ipod earbuds. Can that be worst designed? It simply doesn't fit well the ear and doesn't provide acoustic isolation.

There are many more, I'm just tired to remember them all.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By 3DoubleD on 10/7/2008 12:13:09 PM , Rating: 2
You want an example?

How about the horrible screen coatings on the nanos? Even iPods in general are piss poorly designed. My favorite was the iPod mini. I think out of 6 of my friends that owned them, 5 of them broke within a year. I shouldn't even have to mention the inferior specifications of iPods vs competing products that have existed since the birth of the iPod. Since they charge so much for these inferior products I can only assume their production techniques are poorly cost effective.

I won't even bother addressing the huge premium on their laptops for absolutely no gain to the customer. I feel it would be easier if you named some cost effective production techniques they utilize.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Nyamekye on 10/7/08, Rating: 0
RE: Apple has magic now?
By ZmaxDP on 10/7/2008 5:22:40 PM , Rating: 3
Man, Apple is so evil they took away step 4 completely...

Damn you Steve Jobs! I Liked #4!


RE: Apple has magic now?
By DBRfreak on 10/6/2008 8:00:34 PM , Rating: 2
I think you're a little off base about the cost issue. Carbon fiber can be significantly less expensive than aluminum depending on the amount used and the manufacturing method. As others have said, milling is a very expensive process, especially when you're talking about machining things out of a solid billet. Lots of time on expensive machines, lots of waste chips.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By derwin on 10/6/2008 9:22:08 PM , Rating: 2
Carbon fiber has great str/weight ratios in certain aspects, but has relatively weak tensile strength... so its good for the hood of your car, but not so good as a door which would take head on (contorting) impacts, etc. Thats why you are loath to make an aircraft wing out of carbonfiber. Carbonfiber is not as strong as aluminum as far as making a casing for a computer (albeit I am still in college here, so please by all means correct me if I have placed a foot in my mouth).


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 10:17:03 PM , Rating: 3
http://www.geocities.com/vpkelly.geo/index.html

Whole wing made out of carbon fiber.

http://www.answers.com/topic/carbon-fiber
http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2538

Couldn't be more wrong on the tensile strength. 5650 MPA of carbon fiber versus about the best 7001 aluminum at 570MPA. So, 10 times stronger for carbon fiber?


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Zshazz on 10/7/2008 2:36:49 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah... the real reason you wouldn't want a door made out of carbon fiber isn't because it's weaker... it's because it's too strong! You want the door to flex a little bit, because it decreases the energy transfered to the passengers.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By theapparition on 10/7/2008 10:13:29 AM , Rating: 2
Get ready to remove foot....:-)

Carbon fiber, or most composites like fiberglass, kevlar, etc. all have extreamly impressive tensile strengths. The tensile strength comes from it's fiber, weave, and layup. With the proper layup, strengths of over 100times an equivalent aluminum can be achieved.

However, composites don't generally have great compressive strength, since thier strength is now based on the matrix (read: glue) holding the fibers together. Think of it this way, a nylon stocking can lift up a car, but obviously if you tried to put a car on a stocking it would just be worthless. In that reguard, certain impacts can shatter the matrix rendering the composite damaged.

Still, with the right design, you can specifically engineer the composite to provide superiour strength in all directions.

The only thing holding back composites is cost. Partially because they can't be manufactured/formed as efficiently as metals, and partially because they can't be repaired. Once something is damaged, you pretty much have to replace it.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By kondor999 on 10/7/2008 3:37:46 PM , Rating: 2
Just wanted to mention that carbon fiber is very electrically conductive (not well known it seems).

And you're definitely wrong about the comparative strengths of AL and CF. Remember that CF is layed down in cross-plies as it is strong in only 1 direction. Try to bend a piece of thin flat cf, then repeat the experiment with a thin, flat piece of AL and you'll immediately see the difference.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By 91TTZ on 10/8/2008 9:05:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Carbon fiber has great str/weight ratios in certain aspects, but has relatively weak tensile strength... so its good for the hood of your car, but not so good as a door which would take head on (contorting) impacts, etc. Thats why you are loath to make an aircraft wing out of carbonfiber. Carbonfiber is not as strong as aluminum as far as making a casing for a computer (albeit I am still in college here, so please by all means correct me if I have placed a foot in my mouth).


They do make wings out of carbon fiber. Besides the cost, carbon fiber is an ideal material for wings.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By strikeback03 on 10/6/2008 4:05:54 PM , Rating: 3
not to mention that unless they have some serious plans for all the scrap, material costs alone will eat them up.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By michael2k on 10/6/2008 4:09:44 PM , Rating: 5
I hear you can recycle aluminum...


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 4:15:53 PM , Rating: 5
Does the aluminum melt itself back into nice little bricks? I believe it takes a foundry to do that. Unless the ifoundry is on the way, I have a feeling that will cost some cash. You have to transport all that metal, which is a pain, I have done it more than a few times. Then you have to have someone melt it back down, that costs money. Not a great return on investment, as stamping is a much better use of the metal, and is a cheaper process. Oh, and it is also possible, unlike the story's process.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: Apple has magic now?
By FITCamaro on 10/6/08, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has magic now?
By Brandon Hill (blog) on 10/6/2008 4:21:34 PM , Rating: 4
And your point is?

Products fail. Just because one product from a company fails doesn't mean that a person is forbidden from buying something else the company makes -- or even the same product again.

And so what if she think it's pretty, girls like pretty, shiny things :)


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: Apple has magic now?
By FITCamaro on 10/6/08, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has magic now?
By Lord 666 on 10/6/08, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has magic now?
By FITCamaro on 10/6/08, Rating: -1
RE: Apple has magic now?
By Lord 666 on 10/6/2008 5:59:02 PM , Rating: 1
50 percent of all marriages fail...


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Fronzbot on 10/6/2008 9:41:25 PM , Rating: 4
90% of all statistics are made up ;)


RE: Apple has magic now?
By diego10arg on 10/6/2008 9:44:24 PM , Rating: 2
And now you should do something about that :P


RE: Apple has magic now?
By FITCamaro on 10/6/2008 11:06:31 PM , Rating: 4
So they don't need any help from me. If it breaks up, then I make a move. I don't believe in trying to seduce married women.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Misty Dingos on 10/7/08, Rating: 0
RE: Apple has magic now?
By FITCamaro on 10/7/2008 8:15:21 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Or she seduces you, well that would be OK too.


No then I tell her husband and wouldn't get involved with her at all. If she'll cheat on him she'll cheat on me.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Myg on 10/7/2008 9:06:50 AM , Rating: 3
Spot on FIT; though this one would save alot more trouble for people...

- If someone can't say 'no' before being married, they wont be able to when they are.

Its all about habits, look for the people with the good ones!


RE: Apple has magic now?
By MrBlastman on 10/7/2008 9:12:30 AM , Rating: 2
here here!

Once a cheater... always a cheater.

I have a great friend who married this girl, she then fell in love with her flight instructor and it broke up their marriage. This flight instructor was married. She then broke up their marriage.

My friend is not happy and is pretty lonely. This other man's wife is now lonely. My friends ex-wife isn't completely happy with the man she ended up with.

Nobody wins.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By theapparition on 10/7/2008 10:16:23 AM , Rating: 2
Married woman won't tell your girlfriend either........


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Lord 666 on 10/7/2008 8:14:43 PM , Rating: 2
But it would be ok if the husband AND wife came on to you at the same time?


RE: Apple has magic now?
By homernoy on 10/6/2008 6:00:34 PM , Rating: 2
I have to admit aethstetics play quite a role when I buy components for a new PC (mainly the case). If I knew nothing about the specs of a PC or didn't play video games, I might be inclined to purchase the coolest looking computer.

In the case of laptops, that might be a Macbook. I don't see anything wrong with that, really. This is a hypothetical of course.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Aeonic on 10/6/2008 4:20:16 PM , Rating: 2
But... Plastic isn't as shiny. :]


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Howard on 10/6/2008 6:17:16 PM , Rating: 2
Pennies per pound? Aluminum is almost a dollar per pound now, and everything that isn't mild steel goes for quite a bit more.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: Apple has magic now?
By afkrotch on 10/7/2008 4:20:57 AM , Rating: 2
Dollar a pound for the company. $100 dollars per pound for the customer.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By kelmon on 10/7/2008 3:46:33 AM , Rating: 2
Customers don't want plastic because it looks and feels cheap. The same applies to pretty much any piece of electronics. Plastic is used for the low-end models but as soon as you get higher up in the range then metals are more desirable. And the customer is always right.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By PandaBear on 10/6/2008 6:20:13 PM , Rating: 3
IMO most likely it is a thin sheet of aluminum "frame" or a thick sheet that is too thin to be CNCed, and they will jet or laser cut various area for components locations. You install all the components on this "frame and then slap it onto the shell/case. It is not cutting out from a brick, that would be too heavy let alone wasteful. Cutting from a semi-finished sheet/frame is reasonable. Seems like someone misunderstood the concept.

The only time that really justify hollowing out a brick is vacuum environment. I've seen a 6 feet by 3 feet brick hollowed out for a vacuum chamber for 300mm wafer processes, because they cannot afford to have leak. That chamber alone is probably $200k.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By cornelius785 on 10/6/2008 4:31:31 PM , Rating: 2
My guess would have been apple is using a mill/cnc machine (could be interpretted as 'robots'), along with a laser or water cutter to break a block into rough shapes, to make the individual parts and the rumor has some false interpretations and guesses.

It is not easy to read the original article and figure out what is the: original slipped info/rumor, speculation, old facts, and the typical journalistic 'glue' to tie everything together.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By 3DoubleD on 10/6/2008 4:54:06 PM , Rating: 4
Even with this limited sketch information I can't see how cutting a laptop form (either entirely or for small pieces) would not bring cost savings to anyone. Cutting and folding sheet aluminum will always offer superior cost savings as waste is minimized (and easy to collect) with minimal strength loss (its a laptop, not a car frame). The whole idea is flawed, I really can't see the devil being in the details on this one.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 5:00:29 PM , Rating: 1
I would go a step further, and say that making it out of anything besides a plastic or carbon fiber material is purely insane. What are these people doing with these laptops where they need all this strength? I usually don't throw my PC against the wall every hour on the hour just for the hell of it. Apparently the average Mac customer has an inordinate amount of rage against their possessions, and require serious strength to abade this.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By crimson117 on 10/6/2008 6:33:34 PM , Rating: 3
Aluminum is a much better heat sink than plastic or carbon fiber.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By 3DoubleD on 10/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: Apple has magic now?
By afkrotch on 10/7/2008 7:11:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Additionally,depending on what matrix the carbon fibers are set in, it could be a great conductor of heat (eg, metal with carbon fibers or carbon reinforced carbon (sounds crazy, but that is what the nose of the space shuttle is made of)).


Reinforced carbon carbon isn't made to conduct heat. It's made to withstand the heat. That's why it only covers the nose and wing edges.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By 3DoubleD on 10/7/2008 8:19:52 AM , Rating: 2
On second thought, you are correct it. Carbon-carbon was primarily chosen by NASA for its high strength while enduring high temperatures. However, it does have a high thermal conductivity too. This makes logical sense because if carbon-carbon was an insulator with a high melting point it would have no way to dissipate the energy accumulating in the nose/wing edges. That wouldn't protect the astronauts on re-entry. Carbon-carbon can have thermal conductivities close to that of aluminum.

http://www.stormingmedia.us/44/4418/A441803.html


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: Apple has magic now?
By Sooticus on 10/6/2008 8:14:21 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, using the case as a heatsink is not as much an issue as you might think. Sony brought out the x505 years ago, albeit a limited production, it was a fanless design using the case as a heatsink.

When your dealing with components that have a total of maybe 10-20W at load, Its probably unklikely that they will even get uncomforably warm. It might also indicate apples intention to use SSD and other low power features as standard.

I sould also mention that if mac wishes to continue shoehorning components into smaller frames, at the risk of reducing their operational lifespan due to heat disipation issues, this option has some merrit.

The stronger case could also be engineered to be water resistant. Only time will tell, or a design leak...


RE: Apple has magic now?
By FITCamaro on 10/7/2008 12:16:26 PM , Rating: 2
Actually yes they do use the case as a heatsink. The Apple G4 iBook I have has no fans. It uses the case as a heatsink. And it gets pretty hot.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By mindless1 on 10/6/2008 8:52:26 PM , Rating: 1
Actually, many laptop cases flex enough that eventually it causes mainboard or solder joint cracks if the laptop is moved around a lot or not handled with kid gloves. The situation is worse today than yesteryear because now they're using more bittle lead-free solder and more surface mounted, and smaller, components.

If these laptops were thrown against a wall you can bet they'd still break, they can't be making the Al case very thick or else it would weigh too much.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 10:20:59 PM , Rating: 1
Uh, do you have examples of these joints breaking? The only ones I see break are the jacks like AC and headphones, since people bang them off things. Honestly it sounds like you made this up.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By mindless1 on 10/6/2008 11:57:12 PM , Rating: 1
Sorry but we don't keep damaged parts around. When the physical shock of dropping or other rough handling cause a failure, how else do you think it would happen? Laptop just got mad and decided to quit? Hardly. Physical stress causing cracks is a fairly well understood and accepted problem in the industry, one that some effort and cost is put into designing to prevent but only to a reasonable extent when consumers won't notice the difference at purchase time.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/7/2008 10:00:40 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Sorry but we don't keep damaged parts around. When the physical shock of dropping or other rough handling cause a failure, how else do you think it would happen? Laptop just got mad and decided to quit? Hardly.


Right, so how does aluminum better protect from shock damage? I would venture to say it worsens the problem, as plastic absorbs a blow better. You don't have examples cause it isn't happening.

If you are using plastic that they use to make drinking cups, I'm sure this is an issue. But in the real world, they design the plastic properly with reinforcements so no significant bowing occurs. You are making up a problem to justify what Apple does.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By mindless1 on 10/9/2008 12:37:35 AM , Rating: 2
You'd venture to say it because you don't understand the failure mechanism. The failure mechanism is not subjecting it to high G's, it's flexing the circuit board. Plastic flexes far more than aluminum does unless there is quite a lot more of it.

Every laptop I've ever handled had detectable flexing and creaking as the shell parts moved slightly. A rigid Al chassis removes this undesirable result.

I don't ever justify because it's Apple on any product, and frankly I own zero apple products, quite the contrary I see the other issues surrounding it being from Apple as negatives. I have only dispelled your myths. You utterly fail as a laptop chassis design opinionator.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By prenox on 10/7/2008 2:44:07 AM , Rating: 2
Uhhh Xbox 360? MS even admitted that it was their switch to the new solder that causes the joint breaking on the CPU and GPU.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/7/2008 9:54:33 AM , Rating: 2
http://sogamer.wordpress.com/2007/09/01/360rrod/

It was because of long term heat bowing the board, not flex from the case. This has nothing to do with material of the case, which is what we were speaking of. Meanwhile, who is tweaking the case of the 360 anyway? It is a stationary object, and is a horrible comparison to a laptop anyway.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By FITCamaro on 10/7/2008 12:18:58 PM , Rating: 2
My old laptop has a huge crack at the left hinge of the screen. The brackets are made of metal but encased in plastic. The plastic has cracked. There is a huge amount of stress on it that area when the screen is being lowered and raised. I can take a picture if you'd like.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By 3DoubleD on 10/6/2008 6:52:13 PM , Rating: 2
Edit: meant to say "I can't see how cutting a laptop form would bring cost savings to anyone"


RE: Apple has magic now?
By LivingDedBoy on 10/6/2008 4:49:21 PM , Rating: 2
Or they could just you know, cut the brick in half, hollow out the top, then the bottom. And poof a shell is born! Its magic!

I'm sure they aren't going to do one whole piece without seams... I mean that'd be the most useless laptop ever. Even if they could get the MB, Screen, keyboard, etc in there. How you gonna open it?

Then again they also don't say how big this brick is. Maybe they just cut individual pieces out for each part. Who knows! Its Apple, it'll probably be shiny, and exactly as useful as a non Apple computer. Because amazingly enough, despite what fan boys on both sides say. Now a-days, they're both the same in terms of functionality.

But then again this article is coming from a source who says its source is credible according to a rumor. Not exactly inspiring my confidence there.
quote:
9to5mac says its source insists that the rumor of the new manufacturing system for the MacBook computers is accurate.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By afkrotch on 10/7/2008 7:20:30 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
But then again this article is coming from a source who says its source is credible according to a rumor. Not exactly inspiring my confidence there.


Think it's actually a source who says their source says the rumor is real. Or maybe it's a rumor of a source who says a source of theirs says a rumor is correct.

Weeeeeeeeeeee!!!!


RE: Apple has magic now?
By pauldovi on 10/6/2008 4:59:54 PM , Rating: 3
I work for a manufacturing company as a process engineer. In this field they don't call rough stock a "brick" but instead a "forging", "billet", or even "rough stock". Brick is a retarded term.

It is not complicated to create a laptop out of billet aluminum. You would require at least 2 pieces obviously (LCD part and keyboard part). Financially it does not make sense to do this though....


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: Apple has magic now?
By mindless1 on 10/6/2008 8:54:43 PM , Rating: 1
That's not the two pieces some are talking about, they're talking about two pieces for the keyboard half and at least a 3rd piece for the screen.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By DLeRium on 10/6/2008 10:09:00 PM , Rating: 2
THANK YOU! Process engineers unite! Hah, well I may not be a process engineer dealing with aluminum, but I have enough metals processing knowledge to also know that it is a billet. Stop calling it a damn freaking brick you idiot. No one calls it a brick of aluminum. I hate it when people use the wrong terminology like when the WTC steel "melted."


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 10:27:15 PM , Rating: 1
You don't call raw metal Billet champ. Billet is the finished product after machining a solid piece, so the finished laptop if done this way would be billet. Forging is a process, not a thing. Jesus, what kind of engineers are you guys? Most people just call it "stock". I assume we are dealing with many people who never get near the stuff, cause real work seems to scare many a person.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By pauldovi on 10/6/2008 10:49:10 PM , Rating: 2
Making a Mac Book case out of machined aluminum would require surface machining that would take 25-30 per cycle optimized. Cost effective? Not.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By SeeManRun on 10/6/2008 5:26:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Water jets are used for cutting, lasers as well. Not sure what magic factories Apple has, but I have yet to see something that can hog out the center of a brick, without it being in pieces first. Even the best 5 axis machines can't do this, so I would be interested to see what they actually are doing here.

CNC Machine?


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 5:48:19 PM , Rating: 2
Let me guess, never used a CNC before? What magic CNC machine can cut out inside of a 13-17 inch box of aluminum while leaving it as one piece with a place for a keyboard, and all other mounting? If it is a CNC mill, which it would have to be as a lathe wouldn't work, the head is monstrous, and the tool itself does not bend like rubber as it would need to to do this.

Even a 5 axis machine is not capable of these kinds of cuts, and the setup required would cost a fortune. Plus it would no longer be automated, cause you have to have someone setup the tooling, and the part itself. Some crazy jigs would be required to even attempt doing this in 2 pieces, let alone one.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Don Tonino on 10/6/2008 5:29:04 PM , Rating: 2
As much as machining a piece from full is wasteful in terms of material, it could be advantageous as it would let do without all the tools and dies which can make for a big share of the cost of manufacturing. A NC machine isn't that expensive to set up and manage anymore (often they can be programmed directly from a CAD/CAM suit, what you draw or model is what you actually get machined), it's fairly easy to find a laser or plasma cutter in most workshops nowadays, and aluminum is an easy material to handle, even more when there's little or no welding involved.

Furthermore, the whole chassis could act as a heat spreader:
a laptop with an SSD and an Atom chipset plus CPU could run cool enough to do without any fan, as the aluminum body would be a really good heat conductor.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 5:56:36 PM , Rating: 2
So, carbide bits are free? They wear out you know, quite often in heavy machining especially. You either have to resharpen or replace them pretty often in heavy machining. Cutting is not the issue, it is machining the block inside somehow as one piece. Making laptop cases out of metal is retarded at best, plastic or some sort of fiber is a much better idea.

Heat spreader? Nothing like holding a burning hot laptop on your lap. This is just more of Apple's stupid crap they love to do just to be different.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By homernoy on 10/6/2008 6:04:17 PM , Rating: 2
"Nothing like holding a burning hot laptop on your lap"

Yeah, my wifes older Macbook Pro burns my lap if left there long, so it has to be on a book or a table top to use.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By codeThug on 10/6/2008 8:55:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So, carbide bits are free?
Practically, when it comes to machining AL.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 10:23:32 PM , Rating: 2
The only difference between mills for aluminum versus steel is the flutes. Usually we used 2 flute for light metals, 4 flute for steel. They were all about the same price.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By mindless1 on 10/6/2008 8:57:40 PM , Rating: 2
A laptop with Atom and an SSD doesn't have to have a fan even if the whole outer shell wasn't aluminum.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Gzus666 on 10/7/2008 10:03:17 AM , Rating: 2
So,where are all these Apple laptops with Atom processors? Oh, they don't exist.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By PitViper007 on 10/8/2008 2:47:46 PM , Rating: 2
Remember, this is all rumor anyways. So why not add to it that it could be an Atom and SSD based laptop?


RE: Apple has magic now?
By gerf on 10/6/2008 8:53:05 PM , Rating: 1
Machining aluminum isn't all that expensive, compared to steel or cast iron. Some tooling can last up to 100,000 cycles for example, and the machines can go much faster due to the softness of the metal. Also, they would not cut from a "brick" of aluminum, but rather a casting that has perhaps 1mm excess aluminum in each direction, which would be easily machined away.

Since Apple sells at a premium price, it's not that expensive of a process, especially if they gain in the quality of the product.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By ira176 on 10/6/2008 9:51:28 PM , Rating: 2
I'd have to agree, I'm not sure there is a CNC machine out there that could make the case as effectively or efficiently as stamping. As far as strength of the aluminum is concerned, if the block of aluminum they plan on cutting from was simply poured into a block shaped mould and allowed to cool that way, the grains of aluminum wouldn't be aligned the best way to provide the extra strength. I suppose strength also has to do with the particular alloy of aluminum which will be used.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By CheesePoofs on 10/6/2008 10:04:15 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know about you but I can cut a pocket out of a piece of metal pretty easily with any old mill and automate it on a 3-axis CNC. That'll leave you you just one open side. Plug the back with the IO ports and you're set :) Or leave the top open and cover everything with the keyboard/touchpad.

Seems quite feasible as long as they can easily recycle all the aluminum they cut out of the brick.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By Myg on 10/7/2008 9:02:11 AM , Rating: 2
Typical Apple advertising; throw a very basic and convuluted out idea and let people make magical theories about how its done.

Their version of "Forming from a solid brick of metal" is probably the same as the rest of the industry...

Geez, why do we even pay attention to things like this?


RE: Apple has magic now?
By TimberJon on 10/7/2008 12:33:01 PM , Rating: 2
It would be worth a few searches in the patent libraries, to see if Apple submitted at least a preliminary patent on this technology. I work in a manufacturing facility and do CNC programming, but don't know of a machine or similar application in any industry.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By William Gaatjes on 10/7/2008 12:50:18 PM , Rating: 2
Well, you still need to place a keyboard, so you would have 1 side open i guess. The keyboard could be the top cover. Also this allows entrance for placement of mainpcb. It would use less screws. But i do not believe they would not use screws at all. And maybe some slits for dvd drives and usb connectors and so on.


RE: Apple has magic now?
By phxfreddy on 10/8/2008 9:53:11 AM , Rating: 2
What the heck? You have never seen a brick of aluminum hogged out? In the RF industry things regularly hogged out of aluminum. Maybe you are imagining something alot more complex than you should.


How typical...
By captainBOB on 10/6/2008 6:35:50 PM , Rating: 3
I just love how people gather round in circle-jerk fashion to rip on Apple for "stupid things" such as an aluminum case.

Ummm wtf, last I heard Silverstone and Lian Li made aluminum cases. In fact Lian Li has an aluminum case designed for an Xbox 360. So the whole idea that using Aluminum for cases is retarded is .....well, retarded. I would love to see it made of carbon fiber but its not cheap either.

Also I don't think that Apple will be machining their Macbook from a block of aluminum, more likely from a single sheet of aluminum, that makes more sense.

Oh and by the way, stop drinking the kool-aid people. Its a rumor. :)




RE: How typical...
By Reclaimer77 on 10/6/2008 7:04:14 PM , Rating: 1
1. PC cases are typically NOT carried around and subjected to what laptops are.

2. Who cares how much heat an Apple laptop can dissipate when they throw in slow hard drives, slower CPU's, and the slowest video GPU they can find.


RE: How typical...
By captainBOB on 10/6/2008 7:11:23 PM , Rating: 2
1. Yep, they are not.

2. Ask homernoy. Slow CPU's?

"Nothing like holding a burning hot laptop on your lap"

Yeah, my wifes older Macbook Pro burns my lap if left there long, so it has to be on a book or a table top to use.

I doubt the overheating issue has to do with the aluminum.


RE: How typical...
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 7:17:16 PM , Rating: 2
I have a feeling you don't understand how heat dissipation works. If the heat stays in the metal, it radiates the heat back to the items you are trying to cool. This is why you try to get air flow across a heat sink, to put the heat back into the air and move it out. If you don't have a finned aluminum laptop, you are doing more bad than good. It is a horrible design, as are most Apple products. Meant for making stupid people say "that's cool" rather than function properly.

Apple: form over function(I smell a new slogan).


RE: How typical...
By mindless1 on 10/6/2008 9:04:32 PM , Rating: 2
You don't understand how heat dissipation works either. There is always heat "in" the metal, no it doesn't "radiate' Back because it's always at a lower thermal gradient, though this does increase the 'sink temp so it becomes less effective.

Less effective doesn't have to mean unmanageable though,
there are plenty of passive heatsinks in most consumer equipment and most of them don't have fans, and many are just stamped out aluminum sheeting because it's lower cost than an extrusion.

It's a fine design that works well in too many devices to mention, everyday things like a VCR, TV, etc. The main factor is sufficient metal thickness and total surface area. The latter is easy enough, but the former will increase weight quite a lot. Usually a fan is added because it's smaller and cheaper, not because it's impossible to do the job acceptibly another way.


RE: How typical...
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 10:36:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You don't understand how heat dissipation works either. There is always heat "in" the metal, no it doesn't "radiate' Back because it's always at a lower thermal gradient, though this does increase the 'sink temp so it becomes less effective.


Right, I said it radiates back, I figured you knew it meant the heat sink, since that would be the thing radiating it in the first place. Technically the thing you are trying to cool is the heat sink. Semantics really, so moving on.

I agree there are many things that are manageable, but not a full size laptop with a modern processor, any kind of graphics, and higher speed RAM of modern day. This needs a real heat sink, an aluminum case is not helping, and I would venture to say hurting(literally, ouch!).

VCRs, TVs, etc don't produce the heat computers do. Try slapping a piece of metal on a processor rather than the heat sink, that is a quick shutdown waiting to happen. Bottom line is the heat sink is more efficient.


RE: How typical...
By mindless1 on 10/6/2008 11:49:50 PM , Rating: 1
Actually, the graphics don't need addt'l finned and fan forced cooling the majority of the time, any external case heatsinking would be superior to current designs. Ram doesn't normally have heatsinks either in laptops.

So we're left with a processor 'sinked to an external chassis-based heatsink that has a much larger surface area than in any other currently implemented alternatives.

You're not reading what I wrote, yes if something has lower thermal density then a smaller piece of metal would suffice but we are now talking about a much larger piece of metal than in other designs.

The fact is, people do slap power electronics components on flat plate heatsinks, components that do generate within the ballpark of a laptop CPU and so of these without any fan at all while as I mentioned previously a fan could simply draw air into a metal heatsink-chassis and expel it and improve things even more. It is do-able even if you don't want to accept that, except (again) for the remaining issue of the user not wanting the case of their laptop to get more than mildly warm from a useablity standpoint.


RE: How typical...
By Gzus666 on 10/7/2008 10:10:59 AM , Rating: 2
Lets just wrap all this convoluted crap up into the final issue, no one wants a hot laptop to hold. Mactards will buy them cause they live and die by them. The rest of the world won't, cause they like having a normal temperature laptop. Plastic will heat up much less than aluminum, and is much easier to hold when running because of this. Trying to make the case the heat sink is insane for this very reason. Apple made the case out of aluminum to be shiny and "stylish", no other reason.

If aluminum cases were viable options, then the rest of the industry would have followed, as this is how business works. It isn't happening, Apple is just trying to be different like always. Remember back in the day, normal screens were black and white, Mac was green? Why? To be different. It is a marketing ploy like always, and people buy into it.


RE: How typical...
By overzealot on 10/8/2008 9:45:26 AM , Rating: 2
Green screens were very popular on all monochrome systems in the 80's. My XT had a colour screen with programmable mono settings, so I could run white-on-blue or green-on-black.

And, please, don't break the second law of thermodynamics while trying make a point. It's not very convincing.


RE: How typical...
By mindless1 on 10/9/2008 12:31:12 AM , Rating: 2
... and yet, they could still make an entire Al chassis and just put plastic skins around it which would solve the heatsinking issue and provide insulation, and make it sturdier. Drawback is again cost, but that never stopped Apple before.


RE: How typical...
By aj28 on 10/7/2008 3:19:30 AM , Rating: 2
1. No, but that's not even the main purpose Apple using aluminum in any of their products. You could make (and they have made, btw) arguments for dissipation, strength, looks, recycling, and countless others. Do any of them hold water? Doesn't matter. Laptop sales are 90% talk to begin with, and Apple gets people talking with this type of thing. Hell, look how riled up they've got all of you! And most of you aren't even in the market for a mass-produced, big name laptop in the first place...

2. Just gonna throw this out there, but last I checked the slowest processor Apple even puts in their notebooks is a T8100, which is pretty damn fast when you look at the fact that most retail laptops these days will ship with an E3200 (low-end) or a T5750 (high-end). Mind you, they're a heck of a lot cheaper, but that wasn't the argument you were making.

Don't mean to make a fuss, but really? Ignorance is no excuse for that type of nonsense. Rag on Apple if you want, there's plenty to hate, but at least make an argument that holds water. No better than the fanboys with that kind of talk =)


and...
By luseferous on 10/6/2008 8:18:14 PM , Rating: 3
So its made out of a block of aluminum, this improves the laptop how exactly ?

The strength argument is weak. If your going to subject your laptop to the kind of shock thats going to damage a sheet metal case. Whats it going to do to the screen ?

oh I forgot, shiny.




RE: and...
By codeThug on 10/6/2008 9:01:01 PM , Rating: 2
cool factor.

The strength factor is not weak, considering 6061-T5 Al.

In the apocalyptic world about to unfold, I rather have Al. Than some stchitty plastico.


RE: and...
By mindless1 on 10/6/2008 9:10:29 PM , Rating: 2
The weakness in a traditional design is not a force againt the middle of a sheet of metal, it is where these sheets join each other, that they inevitably flex some, plus most aren't even made entirely out of sheets of metal but rather a moderately flexible plastic.

If done properly it will be quite a bit stronger, and as for the screen if the laptop is closed that protects the screen more too. NOthing is perfect, the parts inside still have their own vulnerability to sudden deceleration but keeping the case itself from flexing could go a long way towards avoiding certain types of damage.

Now if only it were waterproof too, or at least the top. In the last week I've had two different people who spilled liquid on their keyboard.


RE: and...
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 10:42:50 PM , Rating: 2
So, they solved a problem that doesn't exist? How many people have had their laptop break because of this? I haven't met one yet, I encounter a lot of laptops. My pop beats the crap out of his laptop at phone installations, and his is a plastic case HP, has done fine for years. Strange how desktops are going from metal to plastic, Apple is trying to move laptops from plastic to metal. If you drop a laptop hard enough to damage the plastic, chances are you damaged the insides.


RE: and...
By mindless1 on 10/7/2008 3:23:54 AM , Rating: 2
If you've never met one yet, you must have never met anyone who ever had a laptop fail from physical stress. MOST of us have met someone, many who have had it happen (hint: it is the #1 cause of laptop failure).

Desktops are going from metal to plastic only because of two things:

1) They still have the metal, the plastic is just the outer cosmetic covering.

2) They are not subject to the same stresses because they are both:

A) Not moved around nearly as much, not even 2 orders of magnitude as often

B) A larger case without weight constraints is bound to be sturdier if all else is equal.

Yes, if you drop a laptop hard enough to damage the plastic, chances are you damaged the insides. What you fail to grasp is what that damage is - which is what I'd just told you!

You show a lack of fundamental engineering competency, you really should quit while you're only a little behind.


RE: and...
By Gzus666 on 10/7/2008 10:18:01 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you've never met one yet, you must have never met anyone who ever had a laptop fail from physical stress. MOST of us have met someone, many who have had it happen (hint: it is the #1 cause of laptop failure).


Do you have any proof of this? No, you don't, because it is a lie. Laptop failures are varied as any other product. AC jack failures, chipset failures, hard drive failures, screen failures, overheating failures. The list goes on and on, and none of them can be directly attributed to case tweaking. The major cause is not case tweaking, and if you drop the stupid thing, nothing is going to save it but dumb luck.

Once again, you make stuff up to try to fight for this.


RE: and...
By mindless1 on 10/9/2008 12:32:36 AM , Rating: 2
I can see you have almost no experience in the electronics industry. It is not just established fact but was obvious all along that you can't allow modern PCBs with lead-free surface mounted parts to flex.

DUH???


RE: and...
By mindless1 on 10/9/2008 12:42:20 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, the proof is a continual # of customers who have laptops fail after dropping them, failure which require other than screen or hard drive replacement.

Fact it, you made random guesses without knowing the real world failure modes. Chipsets don't just fail in a laptop any moreso than otherwise and I'll bet you have never been able to scientifically even isolate cause to a chipset failure.

If you drop it, no you are wrong! It's not stupid luck, it's engineering that keeps that stress from negatively effecting each part's vulnerabilities. No luck, just engineering vs cost vs size.

I hereby nominate you the armchair quarterback of Dailtech for 2008.


MacBook Brick?
By Noya on 10/6/2008 4:19:51 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
MacBook Brick


In the electronics world, doesn't brick generally mean an electronic device that is non-functioning?




RE: MacBook Brick?
By Gzus666 on 10/6/2008 4:26:29 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
In the electronics world, doesn't brick generally mean an electronic device that is non-functioning?


Doesn't that capture Apple's product line perfectly?


RE: MacBook Brick?
By GaryJohnson on 10/6/2008 6:34:35 PM , Rating: 1
They're non-usable, not non-functioning.


RE: MacBook Brick?
By SpaceJumper on 10/7/2008 9:28:49 PM , Rating: 2
Brick is also mean not repairable and high density packaging.


cheaper?
By astrodemoniac on 10/6/2008 4:43:15 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
will drive down the price of McBooks


...for Apple.
knowing Apple, the customer will never see the benefit ;)




RE: cheaper?
By PhoenixKnight on 10/6/2008 4:59:10 PM , Rating: 5
Knowing Apple, their customers will actually be paying more for the privilege of owning something made using this new, improved manufacturing technique.


RE: cheaper?
By Alias1431 on 10/6/2008 9:12:31 PM , Rating: 2
Well, duh. Magic ain't cheap.


re: mac users
By mercy1234 on 10/6/2008 8:43:05 PM , Rating: 2
love my mac. no blonde hair. not single. not drunk, maybe you should buy one and then you could talk at least it does not crash like a pc.




RE: re: mac users
By codeThug on 10/6/08, Rating: 0
RE: re: mac users
By PhoenixKnight on 10/6/2008 9:40:40 PM , Rating: 2
That's odd, my linux PC has never once crashed. In fact, it's much, much more stable than OS X from all my experiences using Macs. Also, I bought (built) it for half the price as a comparable Mac. Go figure.


RE: re: mac users
By aj28 on 10/7/2008 3:53:22 AM , Rating: 1
Alright, while I don't exactly agree with mercy1234, the Linux argument is kinda lame. Comparable? You'd best be doing better than comparable, given you're cutting out R&D, logistics and shipping, software development, warranty, and a 25-30% profit margin that are all part of Apple's pricing =/

Typing this on a PC, don't even own a Mac, I just don't see the point in that argument. Everyone always plays the price card... The whole Linux stability thing I can agree with, but the price thing goes back to the whole argument of "You can change your own oil, but do you?" Well, in most cases no, and you generally double the price versus just buying the bottles at your local auto store, plus you might muck something up (what percentage of consumers do you think are qualified to install Linux?), and there's no mechanic to bitch at when that oil ends up all over the highway and your fancy European-built aluminum engine block (hah! aluminum... ironic) is warped and ruined. Also, I would personally consider changing your car's oil a little bit simpler than building a PC =D

Windows-based desktops are in most cases a far better value than Macs, Linux builds are awesome and even more cost-effective than the aforementioned, but both arguments overlook far too many elements. You can argue back and forth about which is better and which is just plain stupid, but the market talks, and most every argument to be made works only if you one or more components of the product you're arguing against, be it pricing, features, availability, or any of the wide array of elements that go into buying or building a computer. And hey, everyone has different needs, so based on that fact alone there will never be a definitive answer...

Fact of the matter is, Apple is very clearly turning a profit, which is more than a lot of companies are doing these days, even in the tech industry, so regardless of whether or not they're worth your penny, they must be doing something right, and a solid aluminum enclosure would appear to the public exactly the way they want it to - Durable, lightweight, high quality, energy efficient, environmentally friendly, and easy on the eyes =P

[also, magic.]


RE: re: mac users
By FITCamaro on 10/7/2008 12:33:57 PM , Rating: 2
Only Vista crash I've had is bad chipset drivers from Nvidia. Only XP crashes I ever had were 2 conflicts between Nero and Nvidia drivers.

My latest Vista notebook was $600 for a 2GHz Turion X2, 3GB RAM, 160GB hard drive, ATI 3200HD graphics, and a Blu-ray drive. Works flawlessy without any crashes and will even play older games quite well. What Apple laptop can I buy for $600? None.


RE: re: mac users
By SpaceJumper on 10/7/2008 9:32:55 PM , Rating: 2
My Windows XP works fine for three years already because I have not been installing any software to it, just like a Mac.


yawn
By sprockkets on 10/6/2008 4:33:53 PM , Rating: 2
The 9to5 mac site thinks this is going to revolutionize the industry, as if anyone cares.

While I like the magnetic power adapter, no one seems to bother with it except apple. Perhaps because others want money in repairs for dc jacks, or perhaps no one really cares about it.




RE: yawn
By Suomynona on 10/6/2008 4:40:12 PM , Rating: 2
I think it's more likely that like with this manufacturing process, the cost will far outweigh the benefits for most notebook makers. Boring out a slab of aluminum might make the notebook stronger, but it also definitely drives up the cost significantly. There aren't many companies who can get away with the added cost of something like this.


RE: yawn
By nugundam93 on 10/7/2008 1:16:34 PM , Rating: 2
i for one wish my non-mac (compaq) laptop way back had a magnetic power adapter - i wouldn't have spectacularly killed its LCD after tripping on the power cord. oh well. :)


Idoubt the cost savings will be passed to the buyer
By evident on 10/6/2008 5:13:19 PM , Rating: 2
"reduced cost" of production = more apple profit , because idio.. err mac users are willing to eat the extra $500 markup




By Pirks on 10/6/2008 6:37:41 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, some idio... err rich sobs are willing to eat the extra $50000 markup on their Lexus. Sad sad world, ain't it?


By kelmon on 10/7/2008 4:12:36 AM , Rating: 2
Welcome to the world of business. Please prepare for a short lesson:

The price of a product is not determined by its cost - it is determined by what the customer is prepared to pay for it.

As you are no doubt aware, Apple's computing business has been doing rather well recently. Theoretically they could reduce the price of the products to drive higher sales but if they are happy with the current level of sales then reduced manufacturing costs will simply deliver higher margins, higher profits, and higher share prices (as if that is is possible today). Of course, now that the world economy is slowing it is likely that people are less willing to spend higher amounts of money on computers so Apple can use the reduced costs to reduce prices in order to maintain sales, if that is necessary.

So, yes, you probably are quite correct that lower costs = higher profits. Find me a business that isn't interested in that.


Surely not in the Vanilla Macbook, right?
By Sunrise089 on 10/6/2008 4:46:36 PM , Rating: 2
We all know the only reason most non-gamers buy the Macbook Pro's is for the sleeker looking chassis. That's the same reason the pricy Air got the Pro look. If Apple offers a non-plastic chassis on the Vanilla model it will cannibalize the hell out of the other products.




By kelmon on 10/7/2008 4:55:08 AM , Rating: 2
That's possible, but there's a bit more to the Pro than just the case. The principle additional features are bigger screens, ExpressCard slot and dedicated graphics chipset that can drive bigger monitors as additional displays rather than mirrored. Probably the most important thing is the better graphics performance which is necessary for the professional graphics applications (I'm an Aperture junkie, for example, and run it on a 17" MacBook Pro).

If the new MacBooks are going to incorporate better graphics performance from nVidia then that will likely cannibalize sales of the MacBook Pro more than a change to the case materials.


By Guttersnipe on 10/6/2008 7:54:26 PM , Rating: 2
they beat competitors with superior case quality with their previous computers. it cost more but i was a superior product. perhaps this is more of the same. who knows. but its a good way to make sure knock offs can't match your product quality. hope its true!




By kelmon on 10/7/2008 4:04:37 AM , Rating: 2
The thing is, Apple's industrial design group is actually interested in manufacturing. Rather than simply handing a specification over to a company to make, they work with the manufacturing companies to design new ways to produce the products using the best materials available at the time. Due to this the manufacturing companies quite like working with Apple since everyone benefits.


And to think...
By Graviton on 10/6/2008 8:42:50 PM , Rating: 2
just when the phrase "when Apple builds a notebook not held together with magnets and hundreds of the tiniest screws known to mankind" was about to join it's rightful place in the popular lexicon beside such noble phrases as "when pigs fly" or "when hell freezes over". Oh wait. Nah. They won't be changing that anytime soon. This is, of course, simply how they intend to build the shiny function-follows-form parts. The things will still be impossible to take apart, upgrade, or even manually eject a darn CD from. Wouldn't want to interrupt the wicked clean lines on those babies for anything as tacky as a.. you know.. feature.




RE: And to think...
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 10/7/2008 7:38:44 AM , Rating: 2
You have to consider all the catastrophic laptop failures from weak spots due to bent metal, and consider that any additional costs will save lives! Isn't a closed platform a low price to pay for the reduced laptop related fatalities!


By GiantPandaMan on 10/6/2008 10:52:13 PM , Rating: 2
http://www.popsci.com/scitech/article/2004-09/amaz...

Gawd, the uppity mactards I could destroy! MUHAHAHAHA!

Come to think of it...I could have been doing this for awhile. :)




By aj28 on 10/7/2008 4:04:05 AM , Rating: 2
Or the owners of a number of other laptops on the market these days, and that could well be what would drive Apple to pursue more unique chassis designs, regardless of cost...

Walk into your local electronics store and take a look at some of the new HP and Sony designs. Having a "nice" Windows-based laptop no longer means you get the matte silver case rather than the matte black. We're talking everything from chromed-up, bling-bling plastic and what could pass for a Dolce & Gabbana Edition from the HP camp, to none other than brushed black and silver aluminum finishes from the likes of Sony.

Once again, they need something to set them apart in the aesthetics department, and even if this rumor turns out to be a load of bull I wouldn't be real surprised if it's been seriously discussed or even experimented with in the past year or two over at Apple.


And best of all...
By Indianapolis on 10/7/2008 12:10:06 AM , Rating: 2
And best of all, the one-piece design of the case means that the battery won't be user replaceable! Cool!

So once the battery (or anything else) dies, you really will have a "brick" until you take it to an authorized Apple repair center (or take a can opener to it).




RE: And best of all...
By kelmon on 10/7/2008 4:59:34 AM , Rating: 1
Seriously, why have the fuck-wits come out with this nonsense? The battery will be user replaceable and I give you a 100% guarantee of that. Some people seem to have taken the idea of a "one piece design" and taken it to ridiculous conclusions.


By omnicronx on 10/7/2008 10:19:40 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The new manufacturing process is supposed to make design changes faster and allow Apple to reap cost savings, which will drive the price of the Mac notebooks down.
They say this as though they are selling Mac's for a small profit and thats the reason mac prices are so high. Apple rarely passes on savings to the consumer, so I will believe it when I see it. I just don't see any other reason to pull a product other than to reap the benefits of cheaper production. Savings barely came to the consumer when they started using the cheaper Intel processors and chipsets, so I don't see it happening now.




hmm
By sirius4k on 10/10/2008 4:50:40 AM , Rating: 2
Will it be called MacBrick then ?




Bad apples
By crystal clear on 10/11/2008 6:02:33 AM , Rating: 2
In July 2008, NVIDIA publicly acknowledged a higher than normal failure rate for some of their graphics processors due to a packaging defect.

At that same time, NVIDIA assured Apple that Mac computers with these graphics processors were not affected.

However, after an Apple-led investigation, Apple has determined that some MacBook Pro computers with the NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics processor may be affected.

If the NVIDIA graphics processor in your MacBook Pro has failed, or fails within two years of the original date of purchase, a repair will be done free of charge, even if your MacBook Pro is out of warranty.

What to look for:

Distorted or scrambled video on the computer screen
No video on the computer screen (or external display) even though the computer is on
Specific products affected:

MacBook Pro 15-inch and 17-inch models with NVIDIA GeForce 8600M GT graphics processors

MacBook Pro (17-Inch, 2.4GHz)
MacBook Pro (15-Inch, 2.4/2.2GHz)
MacBook Pro (Early 2008)

These computers were manufactured between approximately May 2007 and September 2008

http://support.apple.com/kb/TS2377




By Guttersnipe on 10/15/2008 4:24:01 AM , Rating: 2
so much for the welding hypothesis....
they show the assembly line at the end of the keynote video, its from s slab.




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