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Hardcore Reactor  (Source: Hardcore Computer)
Reactor is the first retail liquid submersion PC

When enthusiasts look to keep their computers cooler they tend to progress from air, to liquid and then perhaps something more exotic like phase change cooling. If it might keep a CPU cooler and make a computer run faster odds are an enthusiast has tried it.

Boutique computer maker Hardcore Computer, Inc. has announced its Reactor computer. The Reactor claims to be the world's first commercially available computer that uses liquid submersion cooling technology.

Hardcore floods the inside of the chassis with a dielectric fluid it calls Core Coolant to keep all the heat producing components of the computer cooler. The CPU, motherboard, RAM, dual power supplies, and video cards are all submerged under water.

The hard drives are not submerged and are hot swappable with trays on the outside of the computer. Components used in the system include Creative X-Fi sound, a range of Intel Core 2 processors, up to 8GB of RAM, RAID options and more.

Graphics for the machine are via NVIDIA with single, SLI, and 3-way SLI 9800 GTX, GTX 260 or GTX 280 options. A fully loaded system with SSDs, HDDs, GTX 280 3-way SLI, QX9770, 8GB of RAM and more will set you back over $10,500.

Upgrading the system may be a challenge, but the motherboard tray is removable so draining the fluid to upgrade components isn't required. Cables are routed outside the chassis and the CMOS battery and BIOS switch are mounted on top of the chassis. The motherboard used in the system uses the NVIDIA 790i Ultra chipset.



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The real question is...
By vapore0n on 10/24/2008 12:53:55 PM , Rating: 5
But can I buy some fish and have them live inside of the PC case?

Maybe even a snail, to scrub off the motherboard bugs.




RE: The real question is...
By sgw2n5 on 10/24/2008 1:41:56 PM , Rating: 2
Not likely, as the cooling liquid cannot be water. I'm curious as to what they use for this. Propylene glycol and glycerol perhaps? Ethylene glycol and silicon oil?


RE: The real question is...
By Hare on 10/24/2008 2:04:19 PM , Rating: 1
Deionized water doesn't conduct electricity. The modding community has used water and many kinds of oils to submerge and cool components.

Many substances (glycol maybe?) are corrosive in the long run so they may not be suitable.


RE: The real question is...
By spuddyt on 10/24/2008 7:48:41 PM , Rating: 4
actually, looking at it from a chemists point of view, isn't there a reversible reaction 2H2O reversibly forms H3O+ +OH-? dative covalent bonds and all that lark


RE: The real question is...
By AnnihilatorX on 10/25/2008 9:21:27 AM , Rating: 3
De-ionised water can conduct electricity on its own, albeit weaker than normal water.
Even pure water does contain H+ and OH- ions and contamination is easy. It's very silly to use water as the coolant. Oil is a far better bet.


RE: The real question is...
By MrPoletski on 10/26/2008 10:20:15 AM , Rating: 3
more to the point you de-ionize water yeah... then you apply an electric charge on it that ionizes it.

oops.


RE: The real question is...
By 9nails on 10/26/2008 12:40:02 PM , Rating: 2
So, can a fish live in de-ionized water? An electric ell perhaps?


RE: The real question is...
By 7Enigma on 10/28/2008 10:37:20 AM , Rating: 3
No a fish cannot. The lack of ions in the DI water is very hypoosmotic, which means all of the salt in the fish basically acts as a sponge bloating the fish up. Short "baths" in DI water (salt water species) or full sea water (freshwater species) are commonly used to kill/loosen external parasites on fish, but an extended stay is deadly.


RE: The real question is...
By afkrotch on 10/28/2008 3:45:42 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Deionized water doesn't conduct electricity.


Lies! Everything conducts electricity, just some are much less than others. The circuits on the chip, mobo, etc have a higher conduction of electricity, so it stays on it, as opposed to going into the deionized water and elsewhere.


RE: The real question is...
By tjr508 on 10/24/2008 2:09:23 PM , Rating: 2
There are lots of oils out there that might do the trick. I use them all the time with ~1500V separated by about 1 IC length and have never had an electrical leak (even in a system that is partially contaminated with water, mud, and who knows what else.)


RE: The real question is...
By AntiM on 10/24/2008 2:25:03 PM , Rating: 2
This cursory review (advertisement?) at Maximum PC says its an oil.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/hardcore...

quote:
The oil is also somewhat of a secret but it is biodegradable and completely non-conductive. Hardcore says you can actually drink it but it obviously doesn’t recommend it. It is truly oily though and getting some on your hand will have you running for the sink and a bottle of Dawn. The oil is re-circulated twice a minute with higher velocity oil shot through the blocks on the CPU, chipset and GPU.


RE: The real question is...
By snownpaint on 10/24/2008 3:15:39 PM , Rating: 3
If you remember that show Beyond 2000 (1980s - 90s). They had an episode that demonstrated this water-like dielectric fluid. (inert and same density). She took a MACII (plugged in and running, smiling mac start-up screen) and submerged it in a tank of the stuff. The liquid would also bubble at a short circuit, making it easy to find on boards.. At the time it cost $400 an ounce, "making it an expensive magic trick to show friends"

I was very young when I saw this, but it stuck in my mind.

I think it would be good in a case, if the cost came down from then..


RE: The real question is...
By Darkk on 10/25/2008 8:07:12 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, I too remember that episode and thought it was cool as hell. At $400 an ounce she said the tank was worth over $10,000.

Not something you would have in your house but at the time it was neat to see her dunk a live PC or TV in the tank and it kept on working.

I think somebody had mentioned the Cray II uses this liquid to keep the system cool.


RE: The real question is...
By tjr508 on 10/24/2008 4:40:28 PM , Rating: 2
Seems to be true. Like I mentioned, there are many many to choose from. The only problem I could see is that motherboards have wires and interconnects much much closer than IC length, so a small amount of contamination could be a big problem.


RE: The real question is...
By Chernobyl68 on 10/24/2008 6:33:06 PM , Rating: 2
biodegradeable = breaks down in the case. after how long I wonder?


RE: The real question is...
By zinfamous on 10/24/2008 9:49:36 PM , Rating: 2
simple mineral oil. ...I wouldn't be surprised.


RE: The real question is...
By SilthDraeth on 10/25/2008 2:37:24 PM , Rating: 2
More than likely. Since that is what seems to be used in homebrew full submersion.


RE: The real question is...
By CyborgTMT on 10/26/2008 1:20:54 AM , Rating: 2
No, it won't be mineral oil. After about 6-8 months of use Mineral oil will start to turn yellow and will need to be replaced yearly. It is definitely a synthetic oil, my first guess was silicon based, but I don't know how biodegradable that would be. Mineral oil has another down side in that most TIMs use it as their base.


RE: The real question is...
By AlvinCool on 10/27/2008 10:55:16 AM , Rating: 2
It's transformer oil that doesn't conduct electricity


RE: The real question is...
By GotDiesel on 10/27/2008 12:49:34 PM , Rating: 2
This was done many years ago with Cray machines..
the liquid is probably a chlorinated flourocarbon
i have see TV's immersed in this.. LOL


RE: The real question is...
By aju on 10/27/2008 11:23:10 AM , Rating: 2
To do it right, you need a fluid like 3M’s FC-770. It will remain liquid from +- 100 degrees Celsius. It is completely safe for electronic parts and is non-toxic and non-flammable. It is basically inert. The down side is that it costs about $375 per liter. They don’t specify what fluid they use, but at a starting price of over $4k, I am thinking it must be something similar. If I had money to burn, I would love to mess around making a custom system cooled in this fashion.


RE: The real question is...
By Clauzii on 10/27/2008 1:31:21 PM , Rating: 3
"Fish & Chips" :D


Nifty, but...
By Motoman on 10/24/2008 1:44:01 PM , Rating: 4
Oil-immersed rigs have been around for a long time...only as one-off showpieces for conventions though.

Thermally it's a fine idea...and I'm sure they've done a bang-up job on the implementation.

But...imagine when you want to upgrade something. Or if something dies and you have to replace it. Whee.




RE: Nifty, but...
By MrPickins on 10/24/2008 2:02:25 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Oil-immersed rigs have been around for a long time...only as one-off showpieces for conventions though.


Exactly what I was thinking.


RE: Nifty, but...
By CyborgTMT on 10/24/2008 2:39:21 PM , Rating: 3
Not exactly, they are much more common that you think. I'm personally writing this on a comp submerged in 10 gallons of mineral oil.

I've upgraded the video cards twice, replaced the power supply, and have a complete system upgrade planed for next month. A can or two of this stuff: http://www.shop3m.com/3m-novec-electronic-degrease...
and everything is back to normal. Like their system, my mobo is on a tray for easy removal along with all wiring routed to the top of the tank. I can change out any part in less time than it takes to swap something out in my Stacker tower.

As for their coolant, I would suspect it is some type of silicon based fluid. Oils tend to change color over time, and will eventually 'sour' creating a bad smell. A silicon fluid will last much longer, but also has a higher cost involved.


RE: Nifty, but...
By Motoman on 10/24/2008 2:58:30 PM , Rating: 2
You, sir, are something of an outlier. Which is a good thing in your case...I am envious of your rig.

But, I think you still have to agree that it's a very "one-off" kind of thing...no one's ever commercialized it before.

And I still have to believe that the average schlep that buys one of these pre-built oil rigs is going to be significantly less likely to be able to effectively swap parts in it than you are.


RE: Nifty, but...
By maverick85wd on 10/24/2008 3:35:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And I still have to believe that the average schlep that buys one of these pre-built oil rigs is going to be significantly less likely to be able to effectively swap parts in it than you are.


True words... unless you're a millionaire. To them it may be worth it to just buy it like this to save time.


RE: Nifty, but...
By CyborgTMT on 10/24/2008 3:52:21 PM , Rating: 4
I think the reason for it not being commercially friendly is a matter of transport and handling than it is a case of upgrading or repairs. It's one thing to have a tower at home get knocked over and you are concerned about the hardware inside. And it's a completely different story when you are worried about the desk, carpet, and ceiling/floor being ruined by the coolant when it gets bumped too hard.
A system designer can easily take into account upgrades and replacements when creating the case. Since my tank ( yes, I used a modified fish tank ) build cost less than $800 including oil to construct, at a price of over 5 grand theirs had better be easily upgradeable. I know the pc parts add to the cost but you are still looking at around 4 grand for just the case, coolant, and other custom parts. For that kind of markup my 80 year old grandmother better be able to change a vid card if she had too.

BTW if you are interested in doing this kind of project here's a few suggestions:

Get a Lian Li replacement mobo tray, they are very sturdy. My first tray came from an old tower I had and bent under the weight of the components.

Use a fish tank rather than seal off a standard tower. Odds are you are going to miss something and with more areas to seal means more potential leaks in the future.

Mock up your system first then decide on what size tank to buy. I almost made this mistake when I forgot to take my large tower cooler into account.

Reinforce the tank's silicon seals. Better safe than sorry. I personally prefer glass tanks, but acrylic ones work just as well.

These are a life saver: http://www1.acryan.com/_backy/index.shtml

Test your hardware in a small tub first. This is for a few reasons - obviously to make sure nothing fails, but also to find any stickers or other labels that might come off in the fluid you are using. Mineral oil is very effective in taking off NVidia labels on their cards :)

If you are not going to actively cool the fluid, at least use a pump to circulate the fluid through a filter. No matter how well you seal the tank, dust and other junk is going to get in. I use fuel filters myself because they can be found with 3/8 fittings and are cheap to replace.

And most importantly, look around the web at what others have done. You can get ideas from even the most basic setup someone slapped together. With good planning and some spare time, you could finish a project like this over a weekend.


RE: Nifty, but...
By Veerappan on 10/24/2008 4:11:46 PM , Rating: 2
I had been considering doing a similar setup a few years back, and in my research came across a few examples of submersed systems. The only commercial one that I remember used 3M Fluorinert:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cray-2

Yes, it's a bit out of the average person's price range, but computers using liquid submersion for cooling have been around for a while.


RE: Nifty, but...
By Chernobyl68 on 10/24/2008 6:36:31 PM , Rating: 2
Dichloroethelyene. when I used trichlor in the navy and the movies we called it "trike". Would you call this stuff, "Dike"? :)


Awesome.
By Ordr on 10/24/2008 12:48:11 PM , Rating: 2
That is insanely cool.




RE: Awesome.
By JasonMick (blog) on 10/24/2008 1:09:06 PM , Rating: 2
I agree its a pretty sweet idea. What's disappointing to me is the lack of hard information on their site of average overclocks or cooling numbers.

They offer the ambiguous statement :
quote:
Unmatched cooling capabilities—Core Coolant absorbs 10x more heat than air and circulates through our Delphi-certified radiator at 2.5 gallons/minute


Absorbs 10x more at what? Standing fluid? Circulating fluid at the same constant temperature? This ambiguity makes it hard to figure out how good this would really be.

...And worse yet when you go to the "submersion technology" link on their frontpage to look for more info, it gives a file not found error.

Not very professional for something at this price range imo.

That said, if they can back up their claims with some decent metrics, I can see some hardcore enthusiasts with deep pocket books getting a kick out of this.

Personally for the king of cool I'm a fan of the Amari XPC:
http://www.custompc.co.uk/features/604728/video-dr...
It's a bit pricier at $150K (including R&D), but hey it has a waterfall.


RE: Awesome.
By rudolphna on 10/25/2008 9:35:12 AM , Rating: 2
I think a problem will be how do you upgrade the RAM, or any other slot-based component. The contacts will not touch, because of the layer of mineral oil. rendering the add-ins effectively useless. (added in after it was filled) because the RAM/PCIe/PCI slots will still contain this coolant, which does not conduct electricity. Anyone know how this problem is fixed?


RE: Awesome.
By bildan on 10/24/2008 1:24:08 PM , Rating: 3
So, why not set a MB flat and use a Tupperware tray. Just need to know what the coolant is. Save about $8000


RE: Awesome.
By vapore0n on 10/24/2008 2:30:39 PM , Rating: 2
just use cooking oil

Didnt anandtech or tomshardware do this with regular oil already?


RE: Awesome.
By KC7SWH on 10/24/2008 3:17:32 PM , Rating: 2
Here you go:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/strip-fans,120...
8 gallons of vegetable oil


RE: Awesome.
By cherrycoke on 10/25/2008 11:54:25 AM , Rating: 2
vegetable oil would go rancid after awhile, but if you cycled it often enough you could put it into your bio-diesel converted vehicle.


Thank God it's so expensive
By BillyAZ1983 on 10/24/2008 12:51:37 PM , Rating: 2
Because I would not want to the tech support agent helping the 16 year old kid who just fried something.

Ugh, I can just imagine how that conversation would go lol.

The setup looks really nice and I'd be interested to see some bechmarks from it.




RE: Thank God it's so expensive
By Suntan on 10/24/2008 1:24:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The setup looks really nice and I'd be interested to see some bechmarks from it.


Or a guy could wait a year and get the same performance from a standard computer they find online at Dell or on the floor at BB.

You really need to want the geek factor bad to bother with something like that.

-Suntan


By ShaolinSoccer on 10/25/2008 5:31:47 PM , Rating: 2
I agree. Why would anyone want to pay $5000 for a pc when you can build one for less than $2000 that can play any of the latest games at the highest settings?


More pics
By Etern205 on 10/24/2008 3:31:31 PM , Rating: 2
Here are more pics and a article on it.

http://www.maximumpc.com/article/features/hardcore...




RE: More pics
By Guttersnipe on 10/28/2008 1:33:24 AM , Rating: 2
thats pretty sweet.
as for price. enthusiast pc's in the same price range have existed for a while now. and this is a unique cooling solution for such a vendor.

as for price, its not that much compared to say a bmw. like it or not some people have money to throw around. compared to a luxury vehicle or nice house this is really chump change.


Nirvana?
By GhandiInstinct on 10/24/2008 4:36:52 PM , Rating: 2
wtf? why?




RE: Nirvana?
By kyleb2112 on 10/24/2008 5:25:59 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly. Increased weight, decreases accessibility, danger of leaking. This one's for the geek equivalent of fashion victims.


Not worth it without options tossed in...
By Basilisk on 10/25/2008 4:03:23 PM , Rating: 2
Lava Lamp blobs at least.

Niftier would be submarines, divers and/or fish that would ride the currents up and down. Or Bill Gates dolls. Or your favorite superheroes/villains -- 'guess BG's a candidates here as well. Or perhaps 100-dollar bills to flaunt your expenditure on this.




By CyborgTMT on 10/26/2008 1:25:40 AM , Rating: 2
I've done the floating fish thing... it looks stupid after a while. I've also experimented with a lava lamp effect using mineral oil and silicon based oil but both the oils heated up fairly evenly so the effect of the blobs didn't happen.


nvdia?
By piroroadkill on 10/27/2008 5:15:13 AM , Rating: 2
Please, SLI is pointless, I want good multi monitor support goddamit. two 4870x2 in Crossfire.




Don't get it
By afkrotch on 10/28/2008 6:05:55 AM , Rating: 2
With many companies working towards keeping hardware cool, the use of exotic cooling is becoming less of a need for extreme overclocking.

For those overclockers at home, watercooling is more than enough. Most times, you never have to even leave air cooling. I was using a quad 120mm heatercore with my old P4/7900GTX setup with high speed fans. It was loud and kept my P4 around 50C. Now that same setup cools my C2D and 9800GTX, but with much lower speed fans. It's chilling at around 20-22C.




cold
By angrywill on 10/24/08, Rating: -1
"I modded down, down, down, and the flames went higher." -- Sven Olsen











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