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Print 115 comment(s) - last by UNCjigga.. on Oct 9 at 9:47 AM

Good news for Apple in terms of sales is offset by a pummeling on the stock market

Independent research often is used to verify thing we knew all along.  Among the studies to fall in this category was the recent market research which confirmed that Apple computers, on average, cost nearly twice as much as Vista computers.  This is good news for Apple, who despite a reinvigorated advertising campaign from Microsoft, is cashing in on its chic brand image.

In the latest NPD sales info, Windows PCs had a strong 80 percent unit share at online and brick-and-mortar retail stores in June and July.  However, despite having less than 20 percent unit share (some units were netbooks running Linux distros), Apple managed to make over 35 percent of the revenue share -- over 1 in 3 dollars spent on computers.  Apple may not be beating Windows in sales, but it is making a lot of money.

Notebooks are the biggest sales category according to the latest report, with unit sales expected to eclipse 148.2 million this year, says research firm IDC.  Year-to-year growth rates of notebooks were 37.2 percent and an impressive 44.7 percent outside the United States.

Apple laptop revenues continued to rise, growing 30 percent, compared to Windows which showed 1.5 percent growth.  Windows fared better in unit growth, which was 10 percent compared to 35 percent for Apple.  Windows is selling more, but Apple is selling less for more.  The lowest priced Apple computers were $1,099, while most Windows partners had a model priced at below $500. 

The average sales price for both Windows and Mac computers dipped slightly.  For Windows in July and August Window's ASP fell to $694, from $700 in June.  Meanwhile, Apple's dipped to $1,471, down from $1,515 in June and $1,588 in June 2007.

The report generally was good news for Apple, but some analysts, such as eWeek's Joe Wilcox think that Apple has hit a peak at its current price point.  Wilcox wrote, "What's next? I predict that Apple's grab for dollars has gone about as far as it can, without price cuts. Apple's higher prices buck industry trends. About two weeks ago, IDC credited low-cost portables for driving worldwide PC shipments. The trend in notebook buying is lower pricing in a market where Apple sells high."

To add to its worries about netbooks, Apple also has to recover from a beating on the stock market.  RBC Capital analyst Mike Abramsky downgraded his rating on Apple, following a survey from RBC conducted with ChangeWave, which indicated Mac sales could be cooling off in the corporate market.  The result was dramatic, with Apple shares taking the worst hit in eight years.

Shares of Apple plunged 18 percent, after falling 16 percent in only an hour.  The losses in that hour cost Apple $18B USD in market capital.  The losses for the day brought its stock down to May 2007 levels.  Some analysts argue that the market and fellow analysts overreacted to the report.  Nonetheless, despite the good news, Tuesday was a painful day for Apple.





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Economic Fallout...
By nycromes on 9/30/2008 1:27:28 PM , Rating: 5
Unfortunately for Apple, they are probably looking at some tough times ahead. As people worry more about the economy they are going to be less willing to part with their cash for a product that will do exactly the same thing as a lower costing competitor. It will be interesting to watch things pan out as the economy gets more of the national spotlight in the media. Not to be all doom and gloom. They will have a large base of loyal customers (big suprise) but I would think their growth will slow down considerably till people get more comfortable in the economy.




RE: Economic Fallout...
By mmntech on 9/30/08, Rating: -1
RE: Economic Fallout...
By Flunk on 9/30/2008 1:45:57 PM , Rating: 2
I think you are reading a bit too much personal bias into this. I think that the Apple fanbase is a lot more diverse than that. You don't need to be a professional to buy Apple products, you just need enough money, which plenty of other people have too.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By tential on 9/30/2008 2:51:35 PM , Rating: 3
Lets just think about it this way. The general public generally knows very little to nothing about pcs. Sales will dip proportionally. I doubt people who were using macs will be switching over to PCs because of the economy.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By mikefarinha on 9/30/2008 3:32:29 PM , Rating: 2
The economy affects everyone differently. This may mean that current Mac users, and probably Windows users as well, will probably put off buying a new PC longer than they would have had the economy had not had this current mess.

If a user does need to buy a new PC durring these hard times they'll probably be looking a bit closer at the value of each.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By robinthakur on 10/1/2008 6:21:53 AM , Rating: 2
Sales might dip proportionally, but remember that Apple is now the number 1 most trusted brand in the eyes of the public. There will always be a place for the top brands and, actually, they tend to be not as affected by recessions as lower brands.

If anything I would actually say that MS will be worse hit here as they depend on business more for their revenue than Apple, and what with companies putting software refreshes for Office/Vista etc on hold and freezing development, buying of new hw etc. its going to have an obvious effect. Banks in particular spent ALOT of money on IT and this will be felt by the whole industrya as a knock on.

The Creative industries will always use Macs because they like them. If you want to take Macs away from them, you're a braver man than me lol

Note that I use both MS and Macs and am not a fanboi here.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By Master Kenobi on 10/1/2008 8:12:16 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is that Apple's PC line is a small fraction of their revenue, the iPod and iTunes lines are where the majority of revenue is generated. Forecasting based on those lines would be more accurate of how healthy the company is overall. No offense but I find the iPod lines seem to be fairly stagnant at this point. Yes, there are new ones but they don't really offer anything over the last generation which doesn't push people with older ones to buy newer ones. The iPod userbase is fairly saturated now.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 8:54:44 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, no. Mac sales represented 48% of all revenue generated by Apple Corporation in the last quarter, with iPods accounting for 22% and iTunes (plus associated music services) accounting for 11%. The remaining 19% came from sales of the iPhone, software and miscellaneous hardware, and associated services. I think that it is fair to say that the PC line is damned important to Apple still, particularly when growth in that area is far outstripping growth in the other areas of the business.

http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q308data_sum.pdf

Sorry, I don't like correcting people.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By paydirt on 10/1/2008 9:16:58 AM , Rating: 2
The loss in stock price actually does not hurt the company's bottom line unless they needed to sell more stock to raise cash. Apple has a ton of cash, so they wouldn't need to use their stock (price) as a financial tool any time soon.

It DID "cost" stockholders $18B in (temporarily?) lost market value. Stockholders being Apple employees, investors (mutual funds), and retirees (pension funds).


RE: Economic Fallout...
By omnicronx on 10/1/2008 9:55:28 AM , Rating: 2
Revenue is one thing, but how about profits? Selling 11 million Ipods at an average of 170$ a pop is going to net you some nice profits, with much higher margins than laptop/desktop sales (although they are high margin too).


RE: Economic Fallout...
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 10:17:15 AM , Rating: 2
It's hard to say because Apple does not break down their cost figures for each area of business. Still, it seems likely that the Mac business contributes significantly to profits given that the total margin on sales across the organisation was $2.6 billion, which is about $1 billion more than the total revenue generated by the iPod product line. The % margin per iPod unit may be more than that generated by the Mac business but there is no way to tell without more detailed information than that which is publicly available. Certainly the $ margin per Mac, however, is going to be higher than that generated by an iPod simply because they are considerably more expensive.

http://images.apple.com/pr/pdf/q308fin_statements....

I'm not sure why people would be suggesting that the Mac business is no longer important to Apple. It's undoubtably the single biggest area of revenue and profits for the corporation and the area of the business that is experiencing the highest growth. As noted previously, the iPod only contributes to 22% total revenue and is showing growth of only 7%, whereas the Mac side of the business saw growth of 43% in the last quarter.

This, it has to be said, does agree with Master Kenobi's point about new iPods being a harder sell. Growth of that side of the business is stagnating and it may well be fair to say that everyone who wants an iPod already has one.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By michael2k on 9/30/08, Rating: -1
RE: Economic Fallout...
By michael2k on 9/30/08, Rating: -1
RE: Economic Fallout...
By Plague421 on 9/30/2008 2:24:59 PM , Rating: 5
Have you tried windows Mojave? Its awesome!


RE: Economic Fallout...
By 67STANG on 9/30/08, Rating: -1
RE: Economic Fallout...
By michael2k on 9/30/08, Rating: -1
RE: Economic Fallout...
By MrPoletski on 10/5/2008 7:51:04 AM , Rating: 1
"Immunity from Windows spyware, trojans, and viruses"

ummm...

didn't some guy demonstrate and take control of a mac remotely in like 15 seconds or something? The only platforms that are affected by vir ii and spyware are those with a serious slice of the market share.

Nothing, I repeat, nothing is immune to viral infection.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By psychobriggsy on 9/30/2008 2:02:15 PM , Rating: 2
I think it will be bad for all companies.

Unless you need a new computer, you will hang on with your current system for longer. You may not wish to settle for less, or you might decide that you want to buy a computer that will last a long time (for which Apple has a good reputation, deserved or not), or you might reassess all your purchases and realise that what you need is a netbook + desktop, not a powerful laptop.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By nycromes on 9/30/2008 2:59:56 PM , Rating: 2
This was really my point, people will most certainly be reassessing what is important in their purchasing decisions. This will probably stop the growth that apple is experiencing. I didn't consider the longevity question. Price is going to be a big factor in the upcomming months for those looking for new items.

Features and Apple's current market weren't part of my discussion because they really don't matter much. Yes, you get different bundled solutions with Apples, but you can get freeware software to meet most needs anyways. Their current market isn't part of my discussion because they already have them as customers. If they want to grow market share they would have to grab people who they don't currently have and that group is becoming increasingly more money conscious. Only time will tell, but this is what I see in the future of Apple.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By silversound on 9/30/2008 2:26:02 PM , Rating: 2
ALL companies will be affected from this financial crisis, as apple computer mostly sell for the rich, the design and fashion people mostly in the US, I think they will suffer like other tech companies, theres is no recession-proof tech companies out there...


RE: Economic Fallout...
By mondo1234 on 9/30/2008 2:42:08 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, if anything this economy makes Ubuntu and other linux variants look more attractive since they are (mostly) free.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By mikefarinha on 9/30/2008 3:36:17 PM , Rating: 2
Well, the flaw in your argument is that most people don't look to upgrade their OS. They look to upgrade their hardware and make their decision on the hardware specs and what OS comes with the hardware.

Linux might grow for people that are using old OSes like Win98 and need some functionality that isn't available for Win98.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By Myg on 9/30/2008 4:30:18 PM , Rating: 2
People advocating linux draws a picture in my mind of Unhygenix trying to sell off rotten fish, and the fight that ensues :-) (Asterix)


RE: Economic Fallout...
By PhoenixKnight on 9/30/2008 3:17:53 PM , Rating: 3
We all know that the fundamentals of our economy are strong. John McCain said so himself.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By wildmannz on 9/30/2008 5:14:53 PM , Rating: 1
I really wonder about this.

People are talking about the economy like it's the end of the world. It hasn't happened yet.
What material affect has the credit crisis had on anyone here?
Will that affect your computer buying decision - regardless of PC or Mac?


RE: Economic Fallout...
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 7:51:38 AM , Rating: 2
Speaking personally, my bonus this year is barely worth anything and certainly much less than in past years. The economic slowdown is having an impact on the amount of business that my employer does (international courier services) as people choose cheaper alternatives and this is having a direct affect on my income. It would take something pretty serious to make me consider switching back to a PC but I would certainly delay the purchase of a new Mac at this time.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 3:45:03 AM , Rating: 3
Honestly, I don't think that is necessarily true but it depends on what Apple does. I would agree that if prices are maintained at the current level then sales will drop, assuming that people do cut back on expenditure on Macs (the next quarterly results should give some indication of that). However, it is well known that Apple has extremely high margins on their products and therefore prices can be reduced to maintain sales at the expense of reducing overall profits. This isn't something that Apple will want to do but they need to maintain sales (some money is clearly better than no money) and they have the capacity to do this. In reality, it may be the low-end of the market that suffers the most because they can't reduce prices further and the number of buyers now choosing a low-end model over a more expensive one may not be enough to compensate for the sales lost from customers who can no longer afford a new computer at all.

The potential winner from all this could well be desktop Linux distributions if customers are really serious about reducing their expenditure on computing such that they want to avoid the Windows tax.


RE: Economic Fallout...
By MrPoletski on 10/5/2008 7:46:20 AM , Rating: 2
I think the very fact that consumers are willing to pay obviously inflated prices for kit that is not really any different says something about microsoft...

Not that I am an apple fan, coz I'm not. But I can see the attraction for some people to enter into a more controlled software environment. Less BS, I'd expect.


Apple Buyers
By SpaceJumper on 9/30/2008 3:20:43 PM , Rating: 2
Apple buyers are

Pissed off by Microsoft Windows errors and updates
Having too much money to spend
Impulsive buyers
New to computer
Microsoft Windows bashers (biased people)

Unfortunately, if people want to have a wide selection of applications they have to stuck with Windows.




RE: Apple Buyers
By Pirks on 9/30/2008 3:38:27 PM , Rating: 2
Not only wide selection of applications, Windows machines have a large variety of hardware as well. A couple of Mac models with huge holes in their model range is a freakin sad joke compared to all sorts of configurations we PC users can choose from. Just try to find me a decent new 17" macbook for $1000-$1200 - oops! :)) See? Apple will never get out of niche with this puny joke of a "choice" they pretend to have. This is where MS model of partnering with hardware makers crushes competitiion just like that ;)


RE: Apple Buyers
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 4:33:57 AM , Rating: 2
That's a fair point. When my father was looking for a laptop I wanted to recommend a Mac but he was adamant that it needed a 17" screen and a MacBook Pro would have been overkill for what he needed.

Mind you, I don't think we can agree that Microsoft's model is crushing the competition. It used to in the past but Apple, in particular, is hardly losing money these days. And this is a good thing since we all know what happens when there is no competition.


RE: Apple Buyers
By THEiNTERNETS on 9/30/2008 4:11:44 PM , Rating: 2
How about people who hate the Windows GUI?

Or does that make me "biased"?

Why does the collective intelligence of DailyTech always fall through the floor on Apple articles? Is it really that hard to understand that navigating XP/Vista is a chore by comparison to OS X?


RE: Apple Buyers
By homernoy on 9/30/2008 4:18:29 PM , Rating: 3
In all fairness, that's your opinion not fact. My wife likes here Macbook pro, but she really likes using my gaming PC with Vista Ultimate too. That's her opinion as well. Mine? I like them both, but I stick to where the games are.

These PC vs Mac arguments go back and fourth and no one will ever change their mind either way by reading a post on Daily Tech, or any other blog for that matter. It can be quite entertaining read though.


RE: Apple Buyers
By honeg on 9/30/2008 4:33:08 PM , Rating: 2
or professionals in jobs where the best tools are available on OSX. And I don't mean just the graphics guys here. I develop server software, and OSX is far easier to use for this than any windows platform, and slightly easier to use than any linux distro I've yet encountered.


RE: Apple Buyers
By marvdmartian on 9/30/2008 4:34:08 PM , Rating: 1
Let's not forget that Apple buyers also prove ol' P.T. Barnum right every single day! ;)


RE: Apple Buyers
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 4:07:37 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Pissed off by Microsoft Windows


Put me down for that one. Windows just drives me nuts and a Mac works the way that I want to. Having now made a substantial investment in Mac software and the platform in general, it's going to take something very special from Microsoft to encourage me to switch back.

quote:
Unfortunately, if people want to have a wide selection of applications they have to stuck with Windows.


I would agree with this but I also have to question how important this really is. The Mac platform, for example, has loads of FTP client applications available but I only need one. Specific applications are far more important than ranges of applications. One of the principle application gaps holding back adoption of Linux is Adobe Photoshop. It wouldn't really matter if Linux had thousands of image editing applications unless at least one of them could match Photoshop - potential switchers that depend on Photoshop would not switch. It all depends on what you need. As long as there is at least one good application that will do what you need then the size of the available selection means very little.

The problem that the Mac platform has is fear. Switchers will fear that they will not be able to do what they want on a Mac because it is difficult (if not impossible) to "try before you buy" and confirm that you won't have problems. Speaking from experience, it's a bit of a leap of faith and I can understand why people aren't prepared to take the risk, particularly given the initial cost of entry.


RE: Apple Buyers
By robinthakur on 10/1/2008 6:24:35 AM , Rating: 2
I find it amusing that Kelmon is now a Mac fan and Pirks has swapped sides to being an Apple hater! Its Armageddon I tells ya!!!!


RE: Apple Buyers
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 7:41:05 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I find it amusing that Kelmon is now a Mac fan


I'll take that as a compliment. I switched to a Mac about 5-years ago but have at least attempted not to let that cloud my comments. If you've only noticed now then it seems my cloak of invisibility lasted longer than expected...


RE: Apple Buyers
By Pirks on 10/1/2008 2:01:22 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Pirks has swapped sides to being an Apple hater
Hating company and pointing at obvious flaws and deficiencies of that company are two very different things.


RE: Apple Buyers
By PhoenixKnight on 10/1/2008 7:44:48 PM , Rating: 2
I got sick of Windows myself and ended up switching to Gentoo Linux, though I still use XP for some gaming. For me, Mac hardware is too expensive compared to building my own computer and I like to be able to pick and choose my own hardware. Linux also offers a very high level of customization that I like, but at the cost of taking much longer to set up.

So far I've been able to find a lot of Linux programs that work better for me, personally, than their Windows equivalents. As far as Photoshop goes, I depend on it a lot, and Photoshop CS2 works great for me through wine, aside from a few minor bugs. In fact, it's often faster than it was under Windows.

The main difficulties in switching platforms are learning and adjusting to the a new interface and figuring out what programs to use for specific purposes. Like you said, a big problem with Macs is the inability to "try before you buy". Linux, on the other hand, is easy to download and free to try, but it has a much steeper learning curve and the huge choice of Distros and available software can be overwhelming, especially for a new user.


RE: Apple Buyers
By Pirks on 10/1/2008 8:14:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've been able to find a lot of Linux programs that work better for me than their Windows equivalents
Is there any equivalent of AnyDVD HD for Linux yet?


RE: Apple Buyers
By PhoenixKnight on 10/1/2008 11:08:31 PM , Rating: 2
I'm really not sure. I don't have Blu-Ray or HD-DVD, so I've never had to look into it.


It's all about market cycles
By Delegator on 9/30/2008 4:26:52 PM , Rating: 2
The pricing differential between Mac and Windows varies widely throughout the product cycle. When Apple releases a model with the latest and greatest components, the difference between comparably equipped Mac and PC laptops is in the 10-20% range. Over time the PC laptop prices decline, while Apple holds the same price for 6-12 months. So, by the end of a product cycle (as we are at right now) the difference can be astonishing.

So, pay attention to product cycles and don't buy a Mac laptop when it's due to be replaced by a newer model. Or, wait until that replacement happens and then get a good price on the clearance units.

And you do get what you pay for to some extent. Witness, for example, the comparison Maximum PC did over the summer. With essentially the same components the Mac was much faster running Windows than the Windows laptop. And yes, the Mac cost more. If you want a cheap laptop for browsing the web and running MS Office, don't go high end like you see with the Macbook Pro. But if you're a gamer, you really can't get a better laptop than a Mac.




RE: It's all about market cycles
By Pirks on 9/30/2008 4:55:33 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
But if you're a gamer, you really can't get a better laptop than a Mac.
This was one of the most stupid posts I've ever seen here :)))))

This nice Gateway http://www.tigerdirect.com/applications/SearchTool... spits, pisses and rapes any 17" macbook just like that in any decent 3D game, BEING TWICE LESS EXPENSIVE THAN MACBOOK _AT_ _THE_ _SAME_ _TIME_!!!!!

Time for you to crawl back under your rock, don't you agree?

Because you really don't want to compare pathetic macbook's GPU with 8800M GTS in that Gateway (plus all the other sweet goodies like 4GB RAM standard and 7200 RPM HDD standard)


RE: It's all about market cycles
By bruce24 on 9/30/2008 11:29:38 PM , Rating: 2
>>> Because you really don't want to compare pathetic macbook's GPU with 8800M GTS in that Gateway (plus all the other sweet goodies like 4GB RAM standard and 7200 RPM HDD standard)

And it seems you didn't want to compare things like:

Weight, the Macbook is 2.4lbs lighter. The 17" Macbook is kind of heavy at 6.8lbs, but 9.2lbs for that Gateway!

Screen resolution 1680x1050 for the Macbook Pro vs 1440 x 900 for the Gateway.

Processor, the Macbook has a 2.5Ghz 45nm processor vs the 2.2Ghz 65nm processor in your gateway.


RE: It's all about market cycles
By Pirks on 10/1/2008 1:40:19 AM , Rating: 1
Weight doesn't help games :)))

Screen resolution even makes game framerate worse (very high res screens have too many pixels to render).

Additional 300 MHz for CPU don't give you nearly as much as decent GPU does in Gateway.

So, thanks for proving my point about MacBook Pro being PISS POOR choice for gaming (and that was putting it mildly)


RE: It's all about market cycles
By bruce24 on 10/1/2008 7:00:52 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry, I seem to have jumped in a bad part of the thread, I was just looking at the differences in the two notebooks overall, not for gaming specifically. While if you buying something for highend gaming, maybe you wouldn't care about weight, but for most people and extra 2.4lbs is a lot to carry around...this however from a guy that has a 3.2lb 12" notebook who would never consider carrying around a 9lb+ notebook.

>>> Additional 300 MHz for CPU don't give you nearly as much as decent GPU does in Gateway.

Is the 8600 in the Apple that much worse than the 8800 in the Apple.


RE: It's all about market cycles
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 7:38:08 AM , Rating: 2
I have a 17" MacBook Pro. I'm fairly certain that in times of domestic strife it could double as a riot shield. It's certainly big and it's pretty weighty. I can't really imagine bunking around something heavier and I'm seriously considering going back to a 15" model next time.


RE: It's all about market cycles
By Pirks on 10/1/2008 2:07:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Is the 8600 in the Apple that much worse than the 8800 in the Apple
There are no 8800 GPUs in MacBooks.

You just demonstrated your level of hardware "knowledge".

It's pretty boring to argue with such "knowledgeable" people like you, so if you excuse me...


RE: It's all about market cycles
By bruce24 on 10/1/2008 6:17:17 PM , Rating: 2
Wow a reply like your will teach me to do a better job proof reading, while I did type

“Is the 8600 in the Apple that much worse than the 8800 in the Apple”

What I was going for was.

““Is the 8600 in the Apple that much worse than the 8800 in the Gateway”

But I guess asking you a question is useless since all you want to do is argue.


RE: It's all about market cycles
By Pirks on 10/1/2008 6:26:10 PM , Rating: 2
Is it THAT hard for you to find any comparison between 8600 and 8800 on the net? Are THAT lazy? You want me to put the Wikipedia link to GPU comparison table right in your mouth, then chew it for you and maybe even digest it for you?

You know what? YOU WANT TOO MUCH TODAY. Learn how to find technical info online, then come back and we'll talk again. Good luck.


RE: It's all about market cycles
By Pirks on 10/1/2008 6:34:52 PM , Rating: 2
Oops, a typo! "Are THAT lazy?" == "Are you THAT lazy?"

Anyway, here's the link for lazy you :) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nvidia_gpu#GeForce_8M...

See, I'm generous today :P Now, don't forget that Macbook has 8600M GT and my Gateway has 8800M GTS.

I hope after looking at this table you'll stop asking stupid questions like "is rain really wet?" or "is 8600 really that much better than 8800?"


RE: It's all about market cycles
By bruce24 on 10/1/2008 7:30:00 PM , Rating: 1
Pirks = Prick

now I know.


RE: It's all about market cycles
By Pirks on 10/1/2008 7:57:41 PM , Rating: 3
bruce24 = lazy technically illiterate guy who fogets to say thanks after getting some free education :P

now I know too


RE: It's all about market cycles
By homernoy on 9/30/2008 5:41:44 PM , Rating: 1
Well, I'm not going to get into whether or not I agree with what your saying, but are you implying that you would use Bootcamp so you could play PC games on your Macbook pro? If so, you really have to add the price of a new OS on top of the original Macbook price. That's shit is starting to add up.


RE: It's all about market cycles
By Sungpooz on 9/30/2008 11:56:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But if you're a gamer, you really can't get a better laptop than a Mac.


This is by far one of the most ignorant, IT-illiterate statements I've heard this entire YEAR.

Macs are the biggest ripoff in America.

Here are some interesting lines I've read on Apple Store's Website.

To upgrade a Macbook Pro from @gb of DDR2 to 4gb of DDR2 - # 4GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB [Add $200.00]

Oh and here's the final price for a Macbook Pro

# 2.5GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
# 4GB 667MHz DDR2 SDRAM - 2x2GB
# 250GB Serial ATA @ 5400 rpm
# SuperDrive 8x (DVD±R DL/DVD±RW/CD-RW)
# MacBook Pro 17-inch Widescreen Display
# None
# Backlit Keyboard (English) / User's Guide

#

Total

$2,999.00
# Ships: 2-4 business days
# Free Shipping

Wow it comes with free shipping.

Let me tell you about my girlfriend's Macbook Pro. It's exactly as the above.

Her magnetic power connector connects fine, but FALLS OUT so damn easy. I can't pull the fat square adapter without using my hand (unlike most PC's which I can just shift it a bit by tugging on my laptop).

Doesn't come with HDMI, weighs 6.8 lbs., and read hte rest up top.

Now look at this. Under half price yet it's still BETTER:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...

Newegg's Asus M50 series. This thing is 1400 + 15 dollars shipping.
DOUBLE the Hard drive capacity, Intel Core 2 Duo T9300 2.5G (better processor), Better graphics card, has wireless B/G/N!, Has a better web cam, 6.5 lbs (LIGHTER). fingerprint reader.

So, a computer that's a hell of a lot better, for hell of a lot less. You can spend all that saved money and be a sweetheart to your girlfriend and buy her one too. OR buy Mom & Dad a nice Entertainment center for the house. OR give 1000 dollars so a few dozen kids in Africa live to see tomorrow. OR ... I don't know. Just don't fill Apple's pockets with ripoff bucks.

And if you want a shiny chrome chassis for your laptop and don't mind spending an extra thousand or so dollars, be my guest, we're not criticizing your judgment.


RE: It's all about market cycles
By Sungpooz on 10/1/2008 12:00:01 AM , Rating: 2
Oh, and not to advertise the Asus any more but the web cam SWIVELS! Something you can't do to hard, heavy chrome.

And the typo:@gb of DDR2 to 4gb of DDR2 is supposed tob e 2gb of DDR2 to 4gb of DDR2.


By UNCjigga on 9/30/2008 1:46:27 PM , Rating: 2
They need to launch a $799 notebook and aim for greater market share. Their sales are up, but it's still mainly the Apple faithful and college students buying their stuff.




By MScrip on 9/30/2008 3:19:39 PM , Rating: 3
Why should they cheap out? Apple manages to sell "expensive" laptops very well. Their stock price is high, and they have billions in cash.

They are a very profitable company, despite their small market share. Why mess up a good thing?


By foolsgambit11 on 9/30/2008 3:53:25 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly, people think Macs run well because nobody ever has to put up with running their OS on cheap hardware. When you figure in the loss of cache from increased hardware failure, slower, less responsive performance, etc., you can see the branding issues Apple avoids by staying only in the high- to upper-mid-range of the laptop sector.


By nycromes on 9/30/2008 4:57:15 PM , Rating: 2
Whatever makes you sleep better at night. Apple is pulling from the same parts caches as everyone else in the market. There is nothing magical about their components. I have quite a few friends who bought macs and experienced hardware problems. Less people owning macs = less overall complaints about issues being heard by the masses.


By MScrip on 9/30/2008 9:17:02 PM , Rating: 1
The hardware is the same, until you consider the extras... Mag-safe connectors, magnetic latches, etc.

But the real difference is the software. OSX, iLife, all that stuff has value.

We can compare OSX to Vista Ultimate for $280.
iPhoto and iMovie to Adobe Photoshop Elements and Premiere Elements for $150.
Garageband to Acid between $60-$300.
iWeb to Dreamweaver or Expression, etc... you get the idea.

Point is.. a Mac has lots of stuff in the box. You might not like it, but people do. It's a selling point for a Mac... which is the point of this article.


By kelmon on 10/1/2008 4:20:20 AM , Rating: 2
Quite correct. The idea that market share is the goal of a business is, honestly, laughable. Profit is the only measurement that really matters in business, although ethical practices and environmental concerns are clearly becoming more important. Right now (and I'll come back to this in a moment), Apple is one of the most profitable companies in IT and that's due to the high profit margin levied on their products. There is nothing to gain by changing what is clearly a winning formula.

The only question mark on this is due to the poor state of the world economies at the moment. If customers start differing the purchase of a new Mac, or buying a non-Mac instead, then Apple will be forced to take action. I would suggest that the easiest way to do this would be to cut the list prices on their products since that can be done quickly and without needing to change the products themselves. Going forwards, they may need to either change the components to reduce costs, or introduce more "budget" models to their range. Doing this whilst maintaining an image of a premium brand will be tricky.


By Doormat on 9/30/2008 5:57:59 PM , Rating: 2
As much as I would like them to, I dont think we'll see a $799 unless Apple sees their notebook sales tank between now and January due to the economy.

I do think we'll see a price cut on the notebooks across the line - $100-150 on MacBooks and $200 on MBPros. $1099 is rather high for the baseline laptop. Plus I bet they'd like to keep their 30% year over year growth going in the Mac sector, especially since iPod sales have flattened out over the past year. A $999 aluminum MB 2.2Ghz/2GB/160GB/Superdrive would go a long way.

I'd really like to see a $499 netbook from Apple, but I dont think they'll make one until they can get the battery to last more than 3-4 hours, and to do that, Intel needs to make a low power single chip MCH/IOHub. Either that or Apple goes ARM and the stripped down OSX the use on the iPhone and leaves intel in the lurch.


By UNCjigga on 10/9/2008 9:47:10 AM , Rating: 2
Hmm, now Gizmodo's running a rumor that the new MacBook will start at $799. Interesting...


Apple's new slogan?
By japlha on 9/30/2008 1:52:31 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Windows is selling more, but Apple is selling less for more.


"We sell less for more...Think different."




How to mislead with statistics
By gstrickler on 9/30/08, Rating: -1
RE: How to mislead with statistics
By chick0n on 9/30/2008 2:28:59 PM , Rating: 1
rofl.

Apple is always selling less for more. Its just losers who knows nothing about computers will buy an Apple. sad.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By michael2k on 9/30/2008 6:15:15 PM , Rating: 2
Why are you a loser if you are computer illiterate? Are you a loser for not knowing quantum mechanics? Or developmental biology? Or high energy particle physics? Or how to make delicious pastries?

I'm willing to bet a good 80% of the population are computer illiterate, which makes it even more sad that they use Windows instead of Macs.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Pirks on 9/30/2008 6:43:36 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
a good 80% of the population are computer illiterate, which makes it even more sad that they use Windows instead of Macs
Blame greedy Steve Jobs for that. Most people use Windows machines because of insane prices on Macs.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By michael2k on 9/30/2008 7:13:48 PM , Rating: 1
Which is why it's great that today's Macs don't suffer from "insane prices".

Pricey, yes, but not insane. And to clarify, those 80% illiterate would be well served by a $699 Mac mini or a $1200 iMac.

It would be nicer if Apple had a $400 Mac mini and $1k iMac, and a corresponding $800 MacBook though.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Pirks on 9/30/2008 7:42:38 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Pricey, yes, but not insane
Charging $3k for a 17" apple notebook is _NOT_ insane???!!! THREE FREAKIN GRANDS, MAN, can you feel it??

Who are you kidding here? It's not funny, you know.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By headbox on 10/1/2008 4:15:18 AM , Rating: 2
Unlike PCs, Macs have resale value. You buy a $2,000 Macbook Pro, you can sell two years later for a good price. Even a G5 tower still sells for more than $1k, while PC desktops from the same era are recycled.

Besides, not everyone is a broke gamer living in grandmas basement- some can easily afford a $2-3k laptop, Mac OR PC.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By jonmcc33 on 10/1/2008 7:41:49 AM , Rating: 2
Who re-sells their computer? This isn't the car industry last time I checked. Computers have no resale value because 2-3 years later they are completely outdated. My 10 year old car still works fine but I sure wouldn't touch a Pentium III with SDRAM from the same lineage.

Not sure who can easily afford a $2-3K computer these days, broke or not. If I had a choice and HAD to buy something brand new I'd buy a $499 Dell Studio Hybrid and $399 Playstation 3. It would cover my internet and gaming all for under $1000 yet no Mac could ever do that for the same price.

Stop dreaming...or maybe you've been living in your grandma's basement for a bit too long?


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 7:57:25 AM , Rating: 2
Well, my last Mac was given to my wife so she could have her own machine, but when it is time to either upgrade that or my current system then the old ones will be sold on eBay. If you can make back money on your initial purchase then why wouldn't you sell it?

In all honesty, the resale value of a Mac is worth considering. Have a look on eBay and see how much old systems still go for.


By joemoedee on 10/1/2008 7:34:39 AM , Rating: 2
Apple has gone after a certain market, and seemingly does well in that market.

It's not unheard of for the buying public to spend more for a product based upon perception, brand recognition, etc versus performance or value.

Example:

Banana Republic Jeans - $79
Old Navy Jeans - $28 (And typically on-sale for less)

That's a $51 difference for essentially the same thing, even made by the same company.

Some people will opt for the more expensive jean based upon its image, status, etc.

It's the same thing with Apple Laptops & Desktops. I don't fault them for it, more power to them.

Does their success hurt me in any way? No.

Will I go out and spend a premium for one of their machines because it has an Apple on it? No.

If the prices were competitive would I consider one of their machines? Possibly.

But then again, I don't shop at Banana Republic. :)

In the end, their success can only make the competition better as it will make them strive to improve their own products. And that's something all of us consumers can benefit from, no matter what our platform of choice is.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By michael2k on 10/1/2008 4:26:13 PM , Rating: 2
You would be computer illiterate AND insane to buy the $3k 17" MBP. Apple would just be doing business.

I was talking about the Mac mini, base MacBook, and base iMac here.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Pirks on 10/1/2008 4:56:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You would be computer illiterate AND insane to buy the $3k 17" MBP
Thanks for describing Apple buyers ;)

Mac mini and iMacs are also overpriced although not three times like MBP 17", maybe just two times... decent Mac mini like PC (in ATX case) costs around $300 (twice less) and decent iMac like PC (in desktop ATX case of course) costs again about twice less if you know how and where to shop.

The only Mac that's close to adequate pricing is MacBook 13" but it's useless because it's neither small like netbook nor powerful and large like 17" PC notebook. It's just a poor hybrid that's not good for anything these days of netbooks and cheap 17" PC notebooks.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By sprockkets on 9/30/2008 9:18:21 PM , Rating: 2
Your mac mini costs $1047 when you have the 2ghz model, a dvd burner, 2GB of RAM and a keyboard and mouse.

If you don't figure that in, you get a computer with no mouse or keyboard, RAM and CPU below current standards, and no dvd burning capabilities. Not to mention the chipset used in it is like 2-4 generations old (G945-G31-G33-G35-G45, however, most are only minor steps up).


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By michael2k on 10/1/2008 4:29:14 PM , Rating: 2
Exactly why would a 2GHz CPU, DVD burner, and 2GB of ram benefit someone who is computer illiterate?

That same person is perfectly suited with the base 1.83GHz CPU, 1GB ram, the stock CD-RW, and a $25 keyboard/mouse combo from PC-Shack.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Pirks on 10/1/2008 5:04:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That same person is perfectly suited with the base 1.83GHz CPU, 1GB ram, the stock CD-RW, and a $25 keyboard/mouse combo from PC-Shack
Which costs twice less than Mac mini at any decent PC shop like dell.com :P


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By mydogfarted on 9/30/08, Rating: 0
RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Gzus666 on 9/30/2008 9:53:40 PM , Rating: 5
You have been programming and building computers for 25 years, and you can't figure out how to run Windows without issue? Something fishy is going on here. I smell a Mac rat.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By borismkv on 10/1/2008 12:38:04 AM , Rating: 2
Freak...I haven't had a virus on my PC in 7 years. Haven't had a crash that wasn't caused by my 6 year old sound card in...uhh...6 years. I guess that old adage is right. Never give a programmer a soldering iron or a static strap.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By robinthakur on 10/1/2008 5:38:25 AM , Rating: 2
You assume that he switched from XP or Vista to Mac when he might have switched from Windows long ago like, i dunno, during the days of Windows ME when MS lost alot of users and it DID crash pretty frequently! I agree that a correctly configured Vista box (esp after SP1) is pretty stable, and since ME I've never really had an issue with instability.

I've been using computers for a long time also and now work in financial IT on predominantly MS technology (SharePoint)and I use macs as well as build my own machines, so quit slagging off people who really only have loyalty to the best tool for the job. I buy Macs because they look hot and they do everything I need them do. Same with the iPhone. I'm not really fussed how much they cost. Apple just understand that people like well designed things that simply work and look like they came from the future :) Fanboi's are the exception to the rule that all publicity is good publicity.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Gzus666 on 10/1/2008 9:02:48 AM , Rating: 2
They look hot? Yes, they are such a "tool" as you put it. When I buy a new drill, I always want the prettiest one in the box, no matter what it costs. Who cares that they all do the same thing, and there are other factors involved in the purchase, hot is all that matters.

I assumed nothing, if he switched to a Mac as a programmer, I would be worried about his code. Apple doesn't exactly have the track record for security or updates in a timely manner like MS and Linux systems do. They have proven Vista is more secure than OS X, and I would be worried to use anything Apple at this point. When they get enough market share to make them a target of malware and hacks, look out, cause it is open season.

Apple's idea, take Unix, bastardize it, but make it pretty. Morons love shiny things.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 9:57:28 AM , Rating: 2
With all due respect, you are not exactly giving the impression that you are the sharpest stick in the wood, either. Seriously, your point makes little sense. That you can assume that someone who writes code on a Mac will write bad code because of the platform itself is simply absurd.

And, no, I don't think there has ever been proof that Vista is more secure than OS X and, yes, I know precisely the event you are referring to. All that event proved was that an exploit existed in the Mac OS and that someone with prior knowledge can use it. This is not a proper security audit and most certainly is not a proof.

However, I will note that I am in total agreement that Apple's speed at fixing holes in their products recently has been pretty poor and they deserve the bad press received for this.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Gzus666 on 10/1/2008 10:14:45 AM , Rating: 2
Reading comprehension, lets try this again. I said, if he switched to a Mac, being a programmer, state of being, not programming for Mac per say, I would be worried about his code in general. The reason I would worry about this, is because if you willingly switch to a less secure platform, especially with 25 years of coding knowledge, you are making a bad decision, or you don't know any better.

No, the event you seem to think I'm only referring to is not the only reason I say it is less secure. They have released many articles showing the holes in the code, and security problems with all the major operating systems, and Vista was better off than OS X. On top of that, they showed MS was quicker to fix security holes than Apple. Just look at how long it took for them to patch the DNS hole.

Face it, they took Unix, and made it crappy, but pretty. Gave everything cutesy names like Time Machine, and Airport Express, oh boy, I love a company that treats me like I'm retarded.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 10:46:05 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
They have released many articles showing the holes in the code, and security problems with all the major operating systems, and Vista was better off than OS X.


Citation, please. All I've seen are reports of the number of vulnerabilities found and reported, which is a far cry from proof that Windows is more secure. To spin an old conundrum, if a bug is not reported, does it still exist?

Reading comprehension is not needed. Perhaps my response wasn't clear (sorry about that, if so) but I know exactly what you were stating and it's utter rubbish no matter how you phrase it. Are developers writing code on a Windows machine producing better code if they upgrade from XP to Vista? It's a preposterous suggestion without a shred of merit.

And, no, I do not agree that Apple took UNIX and made it crappy. What they did was take UNIX, dragged it into the 21st century, and built a user-friendly computing platform on top of a stable foundation. In what possible way has OS X made UNIX "crappy"? It's a certified UNIX distribution with a GUI. If you want "old skool" UNIX then the Terminal provides the same CLI joys as any other UNIX distribution. Do you want me to argue that Microsoft took DOS and made it crappy with Windows? Of course not.

Still, to clarify on the point about the time taken for Apple to fix reported vulnerabilities, you are preaching to the choir on that one.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Gzus666 on 10/1/2008 11:16:07 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Reading comprehension is not needed. Perhaps my response wasn't clear (sorry about that, if so) but I know exactly what you were stating and it's utter rubbish no matter how you phrase it. Are developers writing code on a Windows machine producing better code if they upgrade from XP to Vista? It's a preposterous suggestion without a shred of merit.


Once again, you don't understand. I didn't say anything about programming for a certain OS. It is like a mechanic buying a Dodge Intrepid with a 2.7L engine, it is known they are piles of crap, and having the insight of a mechanic, he should know better than to make this decision. Doesn't mean he works on Dodge vehicles, just means he has insight into that world, yet still makes a poor decision. As a programmer of 25 years, he should know bad code, and problem code when he sees it, no matter what system. I really hate having to beat something into someone's head.

quote:
And, no, I do not agree that Apple took UNIX and made it crappy. What they did was take UNIX, dragged it into the 21st century, and built a user-friendly computing platform on top of a stable foundation. In what possible way has OS X made UNIX "crappy"? It's a certified UNIX distribution with a GUI. If you want "old skool" UNIX then the Terminal provides the same CLI joys as any other UNIX distribution. Do you want me to argue that Microsoft took DOS and made it crappy with Windows? Of course not.


Well, where do I start?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel)

Mach is the kernel, they took Unix, and altered the kernel, not just the GUI front, to make an operating system. Based on Unix, but not Unix. They took Unix, and made it crappy, enjoy.

Windows is no longer based on DOS, and hasn't been for some years. DOS was technically based on Unix, they took Unix, and made it crappy (anyone who used DOS knows this). The best thing MS did was get away from Windows being DOS based.

Last I checked, the only two up to date Unix systems are FreeBSD and Solaris, and they are Unix, with a GUI on top.

Also, last I checked, Linux was Unix brought into the 21st century, not OS X. Mach is a microkernel, Unix is a monolithic, they are quite different. Even better, they call it their own when someone else made it. If you want a flashy front end, anyone can build that, stability and security is the basis of an OS.

As for the citation:

http://blogs.zdnet.com/security/?p=758


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 11:50:32 AM , Rating: 2
OK, this is the last time I am responding.

YES, I DO UNDERSTAND! For crying out loud, at what point have I ever suggested that the programmer was programming for the platform they are writing their code for? This is still the stupidest thing I've read for a while (including on Digg, and that takes something).

With respect to the Mac OS X kernel, you need to do some more reading. Yes, it includes Mach 3.0 but the kernel is monolithic, like Linux, and includes Mach, FreeBSD and the I/O Kit. The I/O Kit was the aspect of the UNIX OS that Apple updated by providing support for things like hot-swappable devices, USB, etc. and what I was referring to with UNIX having been brought up-to-date. Basically, the Darwin kernel uses Mach for the scheduling, FreeBSD for networking, and I/O Kit for device management. How this makes UNIX crappy is quite beyond me and, I suspect, you.

Apologies for the DOS/Windows - I was merely illustrating a point that putting a GUI on top of CLI-based OS does not make it "crappy". Rather, it should produce a far more accessible system.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Gzus666 on 10/1/2008 12:12:46 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Are developers writing code on a Windows machine producing better code if they upgrade from XP to Vista? It's a preposterous suggestion without a shred of merit.


Previous quote from you, somehow you came to the point that I think that programming for XP then upgrading to Vista makes them a better programmer. In fact, I was saying being a programmer in general, you should recognize poor coding, and security holes from poor code when you see them, no matter what you program for.

quote:
YES, I DO UNDERSTAND! For crying out loud, at what point have I ever suggested that the programmer was programming for the platform they are writing their code for? This is still the stupidest thing I've read for a while (including on Digg, and that takes something).


New quote from you. No, you don't understand.

Nice dodge on the security issues, arguments here always seem to go away from the actual point, which in this case is the security, so lets bring it back. Yes, they made Unix crappy. Why you ask? Cause it is less secure. I find this tactic all the time in these types of forums, enjoy ignoring one thing while changing the subject to make themselves right, no matter what. Granted, they made changes, just not good changes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_X
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix-like

Link from the OS X article to Unix-like.

"A Unix-like (sometimes shortened to *nix) operating system is one that behaves in a manner similar to a Unix system, while not necessarily conforming to or being certified to any version of the Single UNIX Specification"

We can argue this stupid crap all day, I could care less on that front. Security is still the issue, and clearly they fail. Unless you completely ignored the link I provided for which you asked, which I suspect is the case. I'm am so sick of people who argue just to argue, and think up any point they can to do so.

quote:
Apologies for the DOS/Windows - I was merely illustrating a point that putting a GUI on top of CLI-based OS does not make it "crappy". Rather, it should produce a far more accessible system.


Either you have a poor memory, or you didn't use early Windows, like 3.1, which was a pile of trash. On top of that, there was little tweaking done to the DOS base system other than some small tweaks to make it run a GUI. This is hardly a good comparison for what you were after, since as we have seen, OS X was a GIANT change from Unix. But reaching for straws seems to be your strong point.

You responded to my post to get all high and mighty, and play "devils advocate" as you put it in other posts. I have seen your other posts, and they are meant to be argumentative more than anything. But look out, it is the last time you are responding, that would be an utter tragedy. Go join a debate club if you like to pointlessly argue anything for points.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By honeg on 10/1/2008 1:42:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Reading comprehension, lets try this again. I said, if he switched to a Mac, being a programmer, state of being, not programming for Mac per say, I would be worried about his code in general. The reason I would worry about this, is because if you willingly switch to a less secure platform, especially with 25 years of coding knowledge, you are making a bad decision, or you don't know any better.


I read your further explanation of this, about a mechanic buying a POS car, but I'm not convinced. Maybe its because I'm a coder who has used a Mac as my primary development environment for the last 4-5 years. I've never built a mac app on it - its been all *nix code. Macs are rock solid for this kind of work. Yes, Apple drags their feet on some things (Java 1.6 for example), but on the whole, I'd rather deal with a bit of a wait than an endless struggle just to make the damn thing work (which was my experience of linux pre-Mac).

Macs aren't perfect - far from it - but they're better in many respects than the alternatives. And, as with any decision you make, you have to balance the pros and cons to find the best fit for you. I'm not worried about the security of my development platform when I'm developing software. I worry about it a lot from the perspective of the apps I build, but thats an entirely different issue.

For the kind of work I do, the most important things are that my development machine is stable, decently fast, *nix based, flexible, compatible with the IT infrastructure I have to work in, portable, and easy to use. OS-X on a MBP hits all of these on the head. On the few occasions that I need it, I have VMWare to run virtual machines, and its also decently stable (if not super fast).


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By tastyratz on 9/30/2008 2:30:23 PM , Rating: 4
Ill bite with a great example:

apple macbook $1944
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
# Processor: 2.4GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
# Memory: 2GB DDR2
# Display: 15.4" WXGA+
# Hard Drive: 200GB

Acer laptop: $699
Note: This is the closest match of a cheap competitor product I can find as a match to that laptop. Note this machine has more memory but less hard drive space and a slightly lower clock speeds.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
# Operating System: Windows Vista Business
# CPU Type: Intel Core 2 Duo T7500 2.2G
# Screen: 15.4" WXGA
# Memory Size: 3GB DDR2
# Hard Disk: 160GB

That means that the competing apple product in this instance is actually 278% the price... far more than double and at one of the lower priced online computer vendors around. Statistics and averages are one thing but this is a side by side.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By DCstewieG on 9/30/08, Rating: 0
RE: How to mislead with statistics
By chick0n on 9/30/2008 5:06:17 PM , Rating: 1
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...

this laptop can do more than Apple's garbage while costing me less.

Apple mark garbage up sky high and ppl think its worth it.

I can get one with 18" screen and Blu-Ray drive for just 200 bux more. Try that for Apple.

No need to defend. Apple is just a nice & shinny overpriced garbage.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By michael2k on 9/30/2008 6:08:03 PM , Rating: 1
Maybe the MacBook Pro is pricier because it is smaller and lighter (by a pound!), has a faster CPU (2.5GHz or 2.6GHz), larger screen (and optionally higher resolution), built in keyboard lighting, ambient light sensor (to maximize battery life), and of course, OS X and associated software.

The only "advantages" your system has larger hard drive and higher default resolution, but on a smaller screen.

So it isn't quite right to say your laptop can do more... it can do things more slowly, larger, and heavier (kind of like an SUV)... but at least it costs significantly less.

So it goes back to tradeoffs. Is size and weight important to you? And the 18" is more than $200, closer to $250 more, still has a lower 'max' resolution than the 17" MBP, is 2.2lb heavier, much larger, etc, etc. But hey, not everyone can afford a MBP, and that is why choice/competition is important.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By sinful on 10/1/2008 12:34:54 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Maybe the MacBook Pro is pricier because it is smaller and lighter (by a pound!), has a faster CPU (2.5GHz or 2.6GHz), larger screen


Before rushing to Apple's defense, try actually looking at the comparison.
They're comparing a MacBook, not a Macbook Pro, so it DOESN'T
have a faster CPU, or a larger screen, or...

All you've done is cited specs from a higher priced machine while making reference to the price of a lower spec'd machine.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By borismkv on 10/1/2008 12:46:21 AM , Rating: 3
Don't waste your breath. Apple people have no concept of comparison. They're happy to spend a thousand bucks for an OS that is locked down as long as it has that idiotic apple logo on it. I wouldn't be surprised if ol' Jobs could pull another thousand bucks out of their pockets. Here's what I think is funny. Every single iPhone 3G that has been sold has placed money in *Microsoft's* pocket as well as Apple. The next version of the Apple OS will leverage Microsoft Exchange for email. OS X servers will actually include Microsoft Exchange Server for email hosting. And Apple has to pay MS for the privilege. I'm just gonna be over here laughing while the Apple slowly morphs into just another PC manufacturer. First it was Intel hardware, now it's Microsoft Software. Like I said. Just sitting here. Laughing like crazy.


By michael2k on 10/1/2008 4:36:51 PM , Rating: 2
Uh...

So if we compare to a MacBook...
MacBook is 2.2lbs lighter
Much smaller in all dimensions
Same CPU speed
Half the ram
Lower resolution
Half the hard drive space

How is it that this is "leaps and bounds better" when it HUGE cmopared to a MacBook, heavy compared to a MacBook, yet still the same speed? The advantages of the Acer is resolution, storage, and ram, but if you know what you are doing (IE, smart enough to install RAM and HDD), then that spec is useless as soon as 4GB sticks arrive and 750GB SATA HDDs arrive.

The only benefit then comes at a huge tradeoff; larger screen and resolution at the cost of portability.


By silversound on 9/30/2008 2:56:47 PM , Rating: 2
You should do your homework more, the acer laptop you listed is not at the same level as the macbook pro. You should also look at video cards inside, adapters, weight and other additional functions. Dell XPS line might be a worth product line to compare with a macbook or macbook pro


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By bruce24 on 9/30/2008 9:30:58 PM , Rating: 2
>>> Ill bite with a great example:

I'll provide another example:

Apple iMac $1199
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/fam...
# Processor: 2.4GHz Intel Mobile Core 2 Duo
# Memory: 1GB DDR2
# ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2400 XT
# Display: 20" WSXGA (1680x1050)
# Hard Drive: 250GB

Dell One Desktop $1289
http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetail...
# Processor: 2.33GHz Intel Core 2 Duo
# Memory: 2GB DDR2
# ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2400 XT
# Display: 20" WSXGA (1680x1050)
# Hard Drive: 320GB

Gateway ZX190 $1499
http://www.gateway.com/systems/product/529668183.p...
# Processor: 1.5GHz Intel Mobile Core 2 Duo
# Memory: 2GB DDR2
# ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2600 XT
# Display: 19" (1440 x 900)
# Hard Drive: 400GB


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Radnor on 10/1/2008 5:46:54 AM , Rating: 2
My my, it is not pretty to show off cherry picked examples.
First of that Mac has a Santa Rosa, platform. It is outdated. Ill put 3 examples (2 NB, 1 Desktop) that i picked from the first page of newegg. All of them Far superior.

Apple iMac $1199
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/fam...
# Processor: 2.4GHz Intel Mobile Core 2 Duo
# Memory: 1GB DDR2
# ATI Mobility Radeon HD 2400 XT
# Display: 20" WSXGA (1680x1050)
# Hard Drive: 250GB

ASUS M50 Series M50Vm-X1 $1,149.99
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
# Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo P8400(2.26GHz) (Centrino 2)
# Memory: 4GB
# GPU : GeForce 9600M GS
# Display: 15.4"
# Hard Drive: 250GB HDD 5400rpm

ASUS F6 Series F6V-X1
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
# Processor: Intel Core 2 Duo P8400(2.26GHz) (Centrino 2)
# Memory: 4GB
# GPU : ATI Mobility Radeon HD 3470
# Display: 13.3" WXGA2
# Hard Drive: 320GB

Acer Aspire AM5621
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N8...
# Processor: Intel Core 2 Quad Q9300(2.5GHz)
# Memory: 8GB
# GPU : GeForce 9800 GT
# Display: None
# Hard Drive: 1280GB (2 x 640GB) SATA

All of these options are superior to the Apple in the same price category. That Mac is a Desktop in the end of the day, and if you do it your self, it will even get cheaper, or better. Btw, the early versions of that Imac had a problem with the screen that Apple never admitted. If you putted a solid color in the back ground a strange gradient would be easily seen.

You buy Apple because you want status. You don't pay for the computer you pay for status. Don't throw dirt into the eyes of the readers saying it is cheaper. It is not.

It is prettier. And you pay for that. And for the status you think it gives.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Radnor on 10/1/2008 5:51:43 AM , Rating: 2
Dang, forgot to put the prices. Why no edit button ?

The Acer Desktop is 1099.99.
The Asus Laptop is 1,149.99.

You can find better deals. I just didn't search. As i said i picked from first page.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By bruce24 on 10/1/2008 6:53:02 AM , Rating: 2
>>> My my, it is not pretty to show off cherry picked examples.

You seem to have missed the point, I picked products from Apple and two other OEM's aimed at the same exact buyer. These are all All-in-one desktop PC's where Apple pricing is right in line with the other OEM.

What isn't pretty is your need to pick totally different products to try and make a bogus comparison.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Radnor on 10/1/2008 9:11:15 AM , Rating: 2
Imac isn't a computer. Is more like a nice gadget with x86 CPU on it.

I just showed possibilities of a much better PCs on a lower price. Notebook/Desktops.

Again, you want something cute and sparkling on your desk. You want certain status glossy technology bring. It is your money, more power to you.

But don't come tell me they are cheap, fast and productive. Another thing, in all examples i gave, you can slap Mac OS.
So don't throw that argument also.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By bruce24 on 10/1/2008 6:07:02 PM , Rating: 2
It seems in your rush to belittle something it appears you would not want for yourself, you missed the point.....which is other manufactures with similar offerings charge the same price as Apple.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By robinthakur on 10/1/2008 5:58:33 AM , Rating: 2
I think you conveniently ignore that the Acer runs on a different OS to the Apple. Not better (necessarily) but just different. I know that you or I could probably fanangle OSX to run on it, but to most consumers, this is not a viable idea. The design is also leagues ahead on the Apple, which you don't factor in at all. Remember who is buying these computers and why they are buying them, and that not everybody thinks like you, first rule of marketing ;p

You will NEVER find the Apple macbook pro costing less than some budget make because its a very important part of the Apple brand that it doesn't. Its not really a very good argument either. Its a luxury item for people with an expertise in making money (or blewing credit) who might not necessarily care what the specs are beyond bullet points. Will the fact that it has 1GB less RAM mean that Leopard won't run smoothly? Not really, the specs are still pretty respectable, and its not like the G4 days.

You and your ilk, conversely, have an aptitude for knowing the finer points of what the technology means and the payoff is that you can make a more informed decision, but are sensitive on the price. There are also those that know both and from these stats, it looks like a good proportion of them are buying Apple also, so make of that what you will. To claim that all Mac users are brand following idiots is just as ridiculous as saying that all Windows users are bargain-hunting populists and all Linux users wear sandles. ;P


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By tastyratz on 10/1/2008 9:37:22 AM , Rating: 2
and really personally my argument was never that apple products were bad products. The machines they produce are usually well thought out (besides their 1 button touchpad) and high quality in build and craftsmanship.
The fact that it runs osx vs windows isn't conveniently ignored, its not an option for comparison. We cant compare a dell with osx because apple wont ever let it exist. The argument always is pc hardware and OS vs apple hardware and OS.
I would have no problem with osx running on a pc not produced by apple (ala psyclone). While the OS doesn't entirely fit my computing needs it would be a different platform. I would love to see apple try to measure up with the massive quantity of hardware support like windows/ *nix has.

The problem is underlying value. The same machine for a higher price tag. While Apple "enthusiasts" can argue functionality and try to justify spending, an "apples for apples" (zing) comparison shows that apple hardware is purely overpriced for the "match the curtains talk radio mocha latte grande men in turtlenecks and tucked in sweaters brand name".


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By kelmon on 10/1/2008 11:00:19 AM , Rating: 2
I think that's a fair point. The general inability to quantify the benefit of the software running on any platform typically means that computers are compared based on their most basic components. If we had to only compare at this level then a Mac is clearly a bad buy, no matter how well made they are, because the margins charged on them by Apple are so high. But to ignore the software is to ignore what makes a modern computer. I don't choose to run a Mac rather than something else because the hardware is well priced. I choose to run a Mac because I don't like the software on other platforms and I do like that available for the Mac. Switching to Windows, for example, would be a stupid thing for me to do just to save a bit of money if the result is a computer that I don't like to use.

Given this I tend to read these price comparison debates and take a "whatever" approach to them because they never look at the big picture.


By icanhascpu on 10/1/2008 11:29:11 PM , Rating: 2
Acer is the biggest pile of trash laptop made. You get what you pay for, wither Apple is overpriced or not.

Also, youre a douche for chooseing only a few stats on the system to compair.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By Oregonian2 on 9/30/2008 2:34:28 PM , Rating: 2
In terms of hardware an Apple box is a Windows machine because windows can be run on it.

Apple is playing the high end which is fine -- the same strategy that the US automakers use in putting their product line where margins are highest. There's some risk to doing that, but works great when it works. Don't think Apple will be in the "EEE" section of the market soon.


RE: How to mislead with statistics
By gstrickler on 9/30/2008 3:46:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In terms of hardware an Apple box is a Windows machine because windows can be run on it.


In which case all the boxes that ship with Linux are also Windows machines, right?

Windows doesn't ship on either one. That they're capable of running Windows doesn't make them Windows machines any more than being capable of robbery makes you a thief. You're not paying for Windows, and it's not running Windows, ergo, it's NOT a Windows machine. It's a Windows machine if and only if it's running Windows.


By Oregonian2 on 9/30/2008 7:34:34 PM , Rating: 2
I understand now. A Mac running Windows isn't an Apple Mac, it's a windows machine because the hardware/machine is defined by only by the OS actually running even if multiple should be loaded on it (making it only capable of being other things).


By foolsgambit11 on 9/30/2008 3:48:22 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks for writing a huge post on basic reading comprehension.

I agree, though, that a different wording may have been prudent. Something like, "on average, a Mac buyer will spend twice as much on their computer as a Vista buyer." Hmm. I guess that's not much better. It's hard to write the statistic clearly and concisely, I suppose. Give it a go, if you don't believe me.

Also, the later numbers about revenue do tell you that Apple is making money, but the fact that people spend twice as much for their Mac doesn't tell you that, since it says nothing about the relative costs to the manufacturer of the Mac versus the PC.

In other words, the "thing we knew all along" is really that Apple doesn't sell any 'budget', 'low-cost', or 'value' notebooks. Oooh, aaahh.


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