DailyTech - PlayStation 3 to Upscale DVD Movies

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Gadgets PlayStation 3 to Upscale DVD Movies
Marcus Yam (Blog) - March 5, 2007 5:17 AM

43 comment(s) - last by fparis.. on Mar 6 at 8:57 AM

DVD movies to be upscaled, PSone and PS2 may soon follow

Although the PlayStation 3 is without a dedicated video scaling chip, Sony Computer Entertainment worldwide studios president Phil Harrison revealed in a recent interview that the console would soon be getting some form of upscaling.

“You know, we're not sure when it's coming, but we're going to have DVD upscaling on Playstation 3,” said Harrison to Newsweek.

DVD upscaling is the practice of converting 480i/p material into a 720p or 1080i/p image for display on high-definition televisions that support higher resolutions. The result of upscaling is a slightly improved image that is most noticeable on fixed pixel displays such as plasma or LCD televisions.

Standalone DVD players that upscale the picture to higher resolutions are called “upconverting DVD players.” Computer DVD playing software like PowerDVD and WinDVD commonly feature DVD upscaling to produce an image that fits the selected resolution of the monitor.

The Xbox 360 is also capable of upscaling DVD movies, though a VGA cable must be used to connect the console to the TV in order to enable this feature.

The upscaling of PS3 games, however, remains to be a feature missing from the console’s hardware. Rumor has it on the Neoseeker forums, though, that the backwards compatibility of PSone and PS2 games exclusively though software emulation will open the door for previous generation software to be upscaled to 720p or higher resolutions.

Expect much more official PlayStation 3 news at Phil Harrison’s GDC keynote this Wednesday.

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Wouldn't it be better...

By rbfowler9 on 3/5/2007 7:00:26 AM , Rating: 4

...if the PS3 fed the displays the original 480p signal and their internal processing would upscale it to 720p/1080p as needed? Especially since the PS3 scaling solution seems to me more of a hack by Sony in the later units...

RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By mgambrell on 3/5/2007 8:07:55 AM , Rating: 1

I'm fine with every step in the chain being able to do it, as long as it is configurable. In a perfect world. Consumer electronics is generally a bit more opaque than that though.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By therealnickdanger on 3/5/07, Rating: -1

RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By erwos on 3/5/2007 8:34:02 AM , Rating: 5

DVD is natively 480p, not 480i.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By Spivonious on 3/5/07, Rating: -1

RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By masher2

(blog) on 3/5/2007 10:23:20 AM , Rating: 4

> "No it's not. It's 480i..."

No. The source material on a DVD is (usually) encoded as 480p24. Early players performed 3:2 pulldown to generate interlaced 480i output. Later progressive-scanning players skip this step for 480p-encoded material (which is the vast majority of film-based content) and, for 480i encoded material, do a reverse 3:2 and weave to generate 480p from it.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By MPE on 3/5/2007 10:33:55 AM , Rating: 2

quote:
for 480i encoded material, do a reverse 3:2 and weave to generate 480p from it.

Slight correction. There is no reverse 3:2 pulldown from 480i to 480p for DVD players.

Pulldown is a frame count process and has nothing to do with progressive vs interlaced. It just happens to be that it is employed the most using 24 progressive frames to 30 interlaced frames (PAL has a different pulldown technique).

Pulling down 480i(assuming 30i based) to 480p (24p based) will result in a unviewable material (heavy jitter, shaking, interlacing artifacts and etc).

480i to 480p output in a DVD player basically means deinterlacing and changing signal format.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By masher2

(blog) on 3/5/2007 10:47:20 AM , Rating: 2

> "Slight correction. There is no reverse 3:2 pulldown from 480i to 480p for DVD players"

Correction to your correction. Reverse 3:2 pulldown (also known as reverse telecine) does in fact happen. When a progressive-scan player sees the REPEAT flag in the source video, it does an odd-and-even weave on elements to recreate the original frame, then repeats them in a 3:2 pattern. This removes the 2:3 cadence artificially introduced through telecining.

A high-end HDTV can also perform reverse 3:2 pulldown.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By ebakke on 3/5/2007 11:45:31 AM , Rating: 2

masher2 - I have absolutely no idea if you're right or not, but your confidence and lengthy arguments make me think you are. :)

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By masher2

(blog) on 3/5/2007 12:07:31 PM , Rating: 1

Eep, don't believe me for my demeanor. Snake oil salesmen are the most confident people of all. Research it yourself and take it on evidence, not faith. :)

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By vortmax on 3/5/2007 12:46:05 PM , Rating: 2

But faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen! :)

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By ira176 on 3/5/2007 3:58:07 PM , Rating: 4

Hebrews 11:1

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By therealnickdanger on 3/5/2007 2:27:23 PM , Rating: 2

I'm am not one to believe what is spoken at me either, and so far I have not been in disagreement with you on any topic, but based on my own experience in ripping DVDs, I can safely say that raw video files on DVDs are in fact 720x480 interlaced, not progressive. You are incorrect on this one.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By MPE on 3/5/2007 2:06:50 PM , Rating: 4

quote:
When a progressive-scan player sees the REPEAT flag in the source video, it does an odd-and-even weave on elements to recreate the original frame, then repeats them in a 3:2 pattern. This removes the 2:3 cadence artificially introduced through telecining.

More confusion and myth propagated by "what is pulldown websites" .
Let us assume we are strictly talking about 480/24p encoded DVDs.
Such that the MPEG stream actually consist of 24 fps and 6 flags (thus 30i).

In so called 'DVD reverse pulldown' there is actually no reversing happening because you are implying that there are 30 frames with 24 original and 6 recreated via pulldown. This is not the case. It is actually 24 frames with flags. What these DVDs have are 3:2 flag detection (so they can ignore it).

The so called reverse pulldown is actually just the DVD player ignoring the pulldown flags and processing the original 24 frames. Using the 3:2 and reverse pulldown has major implications - including paying for licensing cost (it is a patent technology and process).

And in fact this process is often moot, because if your monitor is interlaced, the whole 3:2 process will be introduced anyway!

quote:
This removes the 2:3 cadence artificially introduced through telecining.

That comment makes wrong implications. DVD players themselves cannot do this and it is 99% because of the telecine process.

When a DVD movie needs to be generated the process is actually, telecine to tape. The material is then recaptured at 24p(23.976p). Pulldown frames are removed in the capture step. It is encoded as 480/24p with proper flags (including puldown info and widescreen, etc). So in fact, the cadence is not done by the telecine but the encoder. Even if you have a 24 -> 30i telecine, no one attempts to encode the 30i stream in hopes the encoder gets the right frames to flag. And if your encoder gets the wrong field (sine 30i->24p pulldown is the field level) you can have improper cadence easily.

Not to mention you are wasting 20 percent of your storage (thus DVD production/duplication cost) for no good reason.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By PurdueRy on 3/5/07, Rating: 0

RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By TheDoc9 on 3/5/2007 11:55:59 AM , Rating: 2

Most DVD's are progressive, few are interlace esp. nowadays. I suspect that anyone who's ever ripped a dvd knows this.

About the players, it's no different than the situation with the first gen HD-DVD player that only played in 1080i. The disks held the content in 1080p, but the hardware of this first generation couldn't keep up so they release 1080i. The second gen players are all 1080p not because they are de-interlacing the hd-dvd, but because they are playing the content in it's original form.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By masher2

(blog) on 3/5/2007 12:01:29 PM , Rating: 4

> "The man is right. DVD's are natively 480i."

No. People rarely get this right. DVD discs contains MPEG-2, usually in a resolution called Full-D1 (others are supported) and usually in variable bit rate MP@ML. The MPG source can be encoded as 25 fps interlaced PAL video, 29.97 interlaced NTSC, or 23.976 fps progressive. However, the last option is encoded with repeat_first_field tags in the stream to force 2:3 pulldown. You could technically call this last option interlaced, but its really a progressive format, as 24 (actually 23.976) full frames are stored each second. They're divided into half-frame chunks with equal time indices...but this is totally different than a true interlaced format where the half-frames are sampled at different intervals, and thus the originally full frame is not recoverable (though it can be simulated).

Progressive-scan players are "needed" not only because a standard player will (obviously) output an interlaced signal when playing back interlace-encoded material, but also when playing back progressive 23.976 material, as they react to the flag by forcing an interlace. A progressive player reacts to progressive-encoded material by weaving, then doing a simple 3:2 cadence to generate the proper frame rate.

A progressive scan player plays back interlaced material by line-doubling, then (hopefully) doing some adaptive algorithms to remove artifacts caused by unequal time indices between each half-frame. But this isn't needed on progressive-encoded material.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By SunAngel on 3/5/07, Rating: -1

By SunAngel on 3/5/2007 2:30:08 PM , Rating: -1

Isn't what your describing software-based decoding, such as with PowerDVD on a computer? Granted, nearly all consumer electronic dvd players today are progressive scan. Most manufacturers still advertise progressive scanning as a major feature. The reason for the 3:2 pulldowns (on a computer) is because a computer processor is not a dedicated hardware decoder chip. The processor has to calculate the differences in field and time values, otherwise known as frames (remember a computer display can only display progressive images), make adjustments for the color values of the display, and then display the image. On a television set, each input has a certain range of colors that can be displayed. For example, s-video color variation is greater than composite. Thus watching a dvd over s-video will provide brighter, more vibrant colors. Component video goes a step further and HDMI even goes a step further than component video. With all of this, on a consumer dvd player without progressive scanning the image is sent "whole", but is filtered for even and odd lines. Same situation as last generation VHS VCRs. But now, refresh rates of televisions have gotten much greater (due to increased power requirement) and can support "whole imaging". This is why a 70" LCD 1080p televison costs $33,000, but a 20" 480p television can be had for $100. The refresh rate of the 480p set is much (much) lower than the 1080p set.

On a side note, dvd ripping is having a negative effect on the community. Please do something constructive with your lives. GO BACK TO SCHOOL. GET A JOB. Do something other than making the DMCA stronger. Please I beg of you.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By SunAngel on 3/5/07, Rating: -1

RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By Chernobyl68 on 3/5/2007 7:29:47 PM , Rating: 2

my DVD player has a faroudja (sp?) upscaling chip thats pretty good. it will only upscale over the DVI output though, not any of the analog outputs. all you need then is a DVI-HDMI plug and BAM! you're good to go...

Chern

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By Sdiver2489 on 3/5/2007 11:44:13 AM , Rating: 2

http://www.dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#1.40

That section links to and explains how video is encoded as 480i on DVD's.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By Sdiver2489 on 3/5/2007 11:32:51 AM , Rating: 2

I agree. Someone concerned about the maginal gain from upconverting a DVD picture to their TV set instead of the internal circuitry upconverting it should be going out and getting a quality unit as opposed to the basic hardware buit into game consoles.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By probedb on 3/5/2007 8:37:24 AM , Rating: 2

Not necessarily, some TVs have appallingly bad built in upscalers....my LCD TV for example. I leave the scaling to my mediabox as it's far better.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By wallijonn on 3/5/2007 2:07:05 PM , Rating: 1

Upscaling movies is okay, but that doesn't address the problem of down-scaling of games when the TV only does 720p; games should be upscaled, too.

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RE: Wouldn't it be better...

By michal1980 on 3/5/07, Rating: -1

What's the downside?

By BladeVenom on 3/5/2007 8:24:29 AM , Rating: 3

Since Sony fans say that Dailytech only publishes bad news about Sony, what am I missing?

RE: What's the downside?

By sinisterDei on 3/5/2007 10:14:45 AM , Rating: 5

quote:
Since Sony fans say that Dailytech only publishes bad news about Sony, what am I missing?

I think you've gotten the wrong impression here. DailyTech generally only publishes bad news about Sony, but not by choice. If you haven't noticed the buzz around the water cooler lately, there is not a lot of good news to go around for Sony these days. No matter what Mr. PR has to say about sales of Sony product, the fact is that nearly every product in Sony's range could be doing better than it is. The PS3 could be decimating the XBOX360 and the Wii; but it isn't. The PSP could be decimating the DS; but it isn't. Blu-ray could be decimating HD-DVD, or more importantly its chief competitor regular DVD; but it isn't.

I don't mean to say Sony is failing in every market they enter because that is not the case. Sony is holding its own and any attempt to make them out as completely failing is an exercise in self delusion. However, Sony doesn't just want to be a contender; they want to obliterate the market in the way the PlayStation and PS2 walked all over the market for the past decade. And by all rights they should have owned the market, and they only have themselves to blame for screwing things up.

Sony was in a position to continue their market dominance with the PS3 and they blew it. Now they're just another competitor, and that has to feel a bit like defeat.

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The probable end of the Newsweek interview...

By xphile on 3/5/2007 6:21:58 AM , Rating: 5

Harrison went on to say that each and every PS3 owner current and future would be absolutely guaranteed to enjoy full astounding 1080P upscaled dvd resolution on each and every 70" BRAVIA™ XBR® KDL-70XBR3 LCD Flat Panel HDTV they purchased.

"I am delighted to announce this major breakthrough in technological advancement. We are so sure of the utter delight that our beloved customers will experience when watching their old dvds at 1080P on the KDL-70XBR3 that we are certain that within a matter of weeks this new 30 thousand dollar tv will be the top selling television in the world. In fact if you can find any units still sitting on a store shelf within 15 minutes of being announced, well I will throw in the PS3 free when you buy one."

When it was pointed out that it was rather unlikely any of these TVs would or even could be placed on a shelf, Harrison shrugged and expounded, "That's a technical issue and marketing is really more my area." Asked whether 30 odd K was a lot for the average user to fork out for DVD up scaling he responded, " This is the future of dvd viewing. Now your Bluray discs can be accompanied by all your old DVD titles in majestic huge wall sized views. If the average user watches enough DVDs on their new PS3/KDL-70XBR3 combination we are sure they will marvel at the magnificent backwards compatibility of the PS3. By which time we are sure they will have totally forgotten about all their PS2 games gathering dust in the den, or the half assed late blurred PS3 versions of the X-Box 360 games available. The PS3 was never intended to be a gaming platform; it is a DVD upscaling unit which is of course exactly what was always intended." And mark my words, it will be the best one ever created (so long as you buy a KDL-70XBR3)"

RE: The probable end of the Newsweek interview...

By SquidianLoveGod on 3/5/07, Rating: -1

RE: The probable end of the Newsweek interview...

By Solema on 3/5/2007 8:44:39 AM , Rating: 2

Wow, you're kidding, right? He clearly was joking with that Phil Harrison quote.

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Upscaler

By cygnusx999 on 3/5/2007 1:58:14 PM , Rating: 2

I may be wrong, but:

1) A PC via software (PowerDVD, WinDVD, etc) can upscale a DVD.

2) Most PCs from 5-7 years ago have been able to play DVDs without dedicated hardware, dedicated scalers, etc...

3) The Cell processor can easily handle running software the plays a DVD and upscales it...

4) If they are already using software to run the DVD, they can easily change the code to upscale it.

So why does PS3 need hardware scaler for DVD? Has anyone used Linux on PS3 with a software DVD player to output at 720p/1080i/p ??

I'd imagine the same is true with PS1/PS2 emulation.

As for scaling PS3, it's more difficult because the games will be most likely be maxing out the Cell and RSX. Could they use an un-used core to do the upscaling?

The other question:
Why cant Nintendo just add software to play a DVD via the Wii. Have a DVD channel that launches software that plays a DVD. Why does it need a hardware upgrade?

RE: Upscaler

By Scabies on 3/5/2007 3:20:03 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
Why cant Nintendo just add software to play a DVD via the Wii. Have a DVD channel that launches software that plays a DVD. Why does it need a hardware upgrade?

meh, perception?

a: Advanced software DVD playback
b: Dedicated DVD hardware

which, to the ignorant (or uneducated) consumer, will sound more appealing?

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Software Upscaler

By fparis on 3/6/2007 8:57:16 AM , Rating: 2

All this discussion about the hardware upscaler is nonsense... as some said... PowerDVD & Co. can do pretty good upscaling just by software... more than that, DSCALER is open source and has a whole bunch of REALTIME deinterlacing - upscaling algorithms to choose from (better than PowerDVD indeed), and with the processing power of the Cell, implementing those shouldn't be a problem.

If I recall well, Sony demonstrated the power of the PS3 by decoding a bunch of MPEG-2 streams in paralell (25?) at E3, so processing power isn't an issue here...

By Scabies on 3/5/2007 10:02:04 AM , Rating: 1

sigh... most people are concerned about the quality of software upscaling. Have we forgotten that the Playstation 3's firmware is updated 2 (or more) times per month? Have you seen the improvement of PS2 title playback since launch?

...wait you guys hate the PS3, of course you haven't seen it in action

Upscaling DVD movies.

By VIAN on 3/5/07, Rating: -1

RE: Upscaling DVD movies.

By Solema on 3/5/2007 8:47:54 AM , Rating: 2

Wow, you actually managed to crap on a positive article about Sony. I applaud you. Also, just because your TV's upscaling sucks (which most do) does not mean that the PS3's upscaling will suck. Just check out one of the many DVD players with built-in upscaling. They look WAY better than a TV upscaling 480i content. Comparing a TV upscaling Satellite TV to a DVD player or PS3 upscaling 480p is comparing apples to oranges.

Granted, we don't yet know how well the PS3 will upscale, but we also don't know that it will look like crap.

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RE: Upscaling DVD movies.

By darkpaw on 3/5/2007 9:00:37 AM , Rating: 2

Thats bascially what it comes down too, how good is the upscaler? I guess we'll find out.

They could put in some shitty one just to say they have it, or they could put in a good one (like my upscaling DVD player).

Maybe by next Christmas I'd actually consider getting a PS3. Assuming they get some good games, add enough features to make it worth the price tag and/or drop the price.

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RE: Upscaling DVD movies.

By masher2

(blog) on 3/5/2007 9:21:13 AM , Rating: 1

> "Just check out one of the many DVD players with built-in upscaling. They look WAY better than a TV upscaling 480i content..."

Sure. If they have a hardware upscaling chip. Those by Faroudja are particular good. Some cheap upscaling DVDs though are worse than simply letting your TV upscale.

I'm not a Sony hater, but personally, I find it hard to believe that a software hack is going to have better image quality than the upscaler built into a decent HDTV.

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RE: Upscaling DVD movies.

By Hare on 3/5/2007 12:15:48 PM , Rating: 2

quote:
I'm not a Sony hater, but personally, I find it hard to believe that a software hack is going to have better image quality than the upscaler built into a decent HDTV.

You need to check out FFDSHOW and see what you can get with a high end Core 2 Duo :)

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RE: Upscaling DVD movies.

By Hare on 3/5/2007 2:11:20 PM , Rating: 2

I would really like to know why someone rated me down? I just don't get it, something personal? My point was that even "hardware upscalers" contain software. Upscaling with software isn't necessarily a bad thing. I have no idea how the PS3 performs, I just thought I'd point out that software isn't bad.

Anyone interested in HTPCs and home theatre should know the potential of ffdshow (check out google "ffdshow upscaling" etc.)

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RE: Upscaling DVD movies.

By SunAngel on 3/5/07, Rating: -1

RE: Upscaling DVD movies.

By michal1980 on 3/5/07, Rating: -1

By michal1980 on 3/5/2007 4:18:54 PM , Rating: -1

i think everyone missed his point.

In the end. All Decoding is done by.. SOFTWARE.

Hardware decoders are just a cpu thats been desing for one purpose... thereby making them quick at executing that code.

In theory a ps3 with good could will up-convert dvd's just fine.

And theres a difference between up-converting, and scaling.

Most dvd programs, just scale to whatever size you want, using very simple math. Its just using a magnifying glass over the orignal video.

Upconverting Attempts to re-create new data. looking forward, and back, and around it trys to sharpen the image.

Almost like a Reverse A-A,(where that would blend edges). It would try to Unblend edges.

Heres another way of puting it..

A Scaled image would have the same file size.
A Upcoverted image would have a larger files size.

Or again differently.

A scaled image would look clear 'zoomed' in at like 100%.
And get fuzzy at 150%.

A upconverted image would look sharp up to a 150% zoom (just picking a number). Before getting blurry

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RE: Upscaling DVD movies.

By masher2

(blog) on 3/5/2007 6:24:58 PM , Rating: 2

> "In the end. All Decoding is done by.. SOFTWARE."

No. An ASIC decoder contains no software. It doesn't even contain firmware. It's hardcoded circuits that reference no external instructions. It cannot be 'programmed'.

> "In theory a ps3 with good could will up-convert dvd's just fine."

In theory, sure. But here's the rub. Software decoding is thousands of times slower than a good hardware accelerator. That means your computational budget for advanced scaling algorithms is lower....which usually means you have to cut a lot of corners, with resultant downgrading of the image quality.

Maybe the Cell has enough power to pull it off. We just don't know. But being wary of software-based solutions is generally good practice. None of them come even close to comparing to the best hardware video processors.

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