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No skipping or fast forwarding over commercials; not even changing the channel is allowed

Since the arrival of TiVo, people have been enjoying features such as pause, rewind and fast forward when watching TV. Nowadays, these features are standard on many digital TV tuner boxes. Despite their success, broadcasters are becoming increasingly annoyed that TV watchers are able to simply skip over commercials entirely -- even though this can be done simply by changing channels.

Philips has announced that it has invented the means to circumvent the skipping of commercials by PVR devices. By using signals embedded in broadcasts, Philips is able to lock a PVR from fast forwarding over the commercial or even prevent a viewer from changing the channel. The technology, says Philips, will stop a user from changing the channel, forcing the viewer to watch a commercial until it was complete. The only problem is that after the commercial is complete, if the viewer changes the channel and lands on a station in the midst of a commercial, the viewer may get locked in. The fact that users may not be able to even change their channels has many furious. Philips admits that this technology may not bode well with viewers.

Most tuner products use technology from Philips, and in many cases, Philips designs whole tuners. If Philips decides to offer this new technology at no additional cost, the majority of the PVR market as well as broadcasting stations would not hesitate one second to put the anti-commercial-skipping technology to use.

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Forced to watch a commercial?
By ummmm yeah on 4/19/2006 2:38:47 PM , Rating: 2
Ok, if this is implemented I will either have to get very knowledgable on TV's and learn how to remove this without destroying a TV or stop watching TV all together.

"Let the customer watch what he wants." .... wait a minute ... "Force the customer to watch what we want."




RE: Forced to watch a commercial?
By ZombieRitual on 4/19/2006 2:41:39 PM , Rating: 2
This is just outrageous, are they going to make it so I can't turn off the TV in the middle of a commercial either?


RE: Forced to watch a commercial?
By TomZ on 4/19/2006 2:46:33 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, and they are working on another invention that locks you out of your bathrooms and refrigerators when the PVR is playing the commercial. Since there is nothing else useful to do during a commercial, you're forced to watch it. :o)


By crystal clear on 4/21/2006 2:29:00 AM , Rating: 2
I have a solution for You-Have a laptop at yourside and Blog in/out on this Website.Keeps you busy & not watch those commercials.


RE: Forced to watch a commercial?
By sircuit on 4/19/2006 2:58:24 PM , Rating: 2
Theres no way anyone will buy a device with this technology. If we don't buy they have no choice to remove it, easy as that. If not then they'll just force alot of people to exclusively download torrents to watch what they want without dang commercials.


RE: Forced to watch a commercial?
By Decaydence on 4/19/2006 9:12:11 PM , Rating: 2
This is a good way to cut PVR sales by 90%. I pray Philips puts this in all of their products so I can have a hearty laugh reading about how badly they have shot themselves, and the companies using their technology, in the foot. Philips makes garbage anyway.


RE: Forced to watch a commercial?
By Furen on 4/20/2006 4:55:23 AM , Rating: 2
Yes, of course... Considering that corporations have the US congress (and the presidency) in their pocket I can just see "intellectual property" legislation that requires that every system that requires a tuner to use one of these (or a similar one) to "protect" content providers from alterations to their products. It may sound too far-fetched but considering that we changed our copyright laws so that Disney could keep milking "Mickey Mouse" for another 20 years--err... I mean, so that our copyright duration was the same as other countries--I believe that the time of government protecting the rights of the consumers came to an end.


PVR
By OrSin on 4/19/2006 2:41:06 PM , Rating: 2
Not everyone would include this technology. The fact is the one company that doesn't use it will be alot more popular then the ones that does. Replay was force to take out thier commerical skip but just replaced it a 30sec skip. Even if that was taken out it was becuase it only real purpose was to skip commericals.

No way this is going to cut it. I could see the first time you watch a show you have to watch the commerical but what if I want to watch single part again. I have to got through 10 commericals breaks jsut to watch the end? Never going to happen. If manufacture was stupid enough to do this then HTPC will really start taking off. And i know people ahve them now, I even do but most people that even own media center PC don't really use them as HTPC.




RE: PVR
By meson2000 on 4/19/2006 2:45:41 PM , Rating: 2
Well, PCI based TV Tuner cards could easly have this tech built into them too. That means that your HTPCs could be forced to watch the commericals too.....


RE: PVR
By peternelson on 4/19/2006 2:51:27 PM , Rating: 2
"If Philips decides to offer this new technology at no additional cost, the majority of the PVR market as well as broadcasting stations would not hesitate one second to put the anti-commercial-skipping technology to use."

At no additional cost?

Even then, who does this benefit?

NOT the viewer and NOT the manufacturer of the PVR.

It only benefits the advertisers and the stations who derive income from advertising.

WHO is it what decides to buy a PVR. Actually its not the advertisers but it is the VIEWER.

If there exist products on the market with and without this technology, which will the VIEWER choose to buy? The one without it. This idea is totally lame. And in all likelihood, Philips will have to price the restrictive tuners as costing more because of additional components to decode and implement the locking.

In any case if people record and save the stream to disk, surely they can just use software to jump into for fast forward the stream at any point anyway. So it could only effectively stop ad-skipping in live broadcasts not saved ones.

The only way this could work is if the ADVERTISERS sponsor it by paying to GIVE AWAY PVRs incorporating this technology. Few people will refuse a free PVR, and they could put their own branding on it.

However I don't think that is very likely.


RE: PVR
By aGreenAgent on 4/19/2006 3:03:14 PM , Rating: 2
Nah - the point is that Phillips tuners are used by a lot of companies already.

In theory, Phillips then becomes the preference among broadcasters. A little lobbying by the broadcasters, then soon all PVR's will use Phillips tuners.

It's not that this one step will help Phillips, it's in the long run.


RE: PVR
By TomZ on 4/19/2006 4:27:55 PM , Rating: 2
How to broadcasters "lobby" Philips?


RE: PVR
By Decaydence on 4/19/2006 9:19:00 PM , Rating: 2
We shouldn't be worried about Philips and their influence on manufacturers, we should be worried about the lobbying of our Government by broadcasters, content creators, and others; they already have enough money in play in Washington. We all know that recording and playback of anything is something that could easily be the target of legislation, especially with something like this coming down the pike. They will reason that it is a good compromise and we all know how much politicians love to push "comprimises" that favor their owners, oops, I mean campaign contributers.

This type of situation has been in their crosshairs before, don't believe for a second that it won't be again.


You don't own TIVO or DVR, do you?
By Dfere on 4/20/2006 2:26:25 PM , Rating: 2
Understand that your provider often requires you to have a device that someone builds for them or they have manufactured with whatever technolgies they choose. I have Dish, and they provide the tuner (at a charge of course) that I have to buy in order to get their service.

They want advertising money, so they require the use of this new tuner , then I cannot skip comemrcials anymore. Unless I want to hack my tuner.......(Completely different discussion). No laws, no intellectual/constitutional issues. Simple business model. BAM. DONE.

The only choice would be cable or dish for me for entertainment.... and who has more than one provider of either in any given city right now? Not me. So how can someone fight this when their only choice is to buy cable or no cable. I thought that all cities were mandated to allow for more than one cable provider to address choice issues like this, but this has not happened in Ohio.


Oh I can see it now
By Regs on 4/19/2006 8:47:33 PM , Rating: 5
"My 12 year old son could not change the porn channel and he ended up getting a girl pregnant" "I'm suing!"




RE: Oh I can see it now
By themusgrat on 4/21/2006 8:52:44 PM , Rating: 2
LOL. Mw too, might use that one myself, hope you don't have a copyright on it. :)


Consumer Education Required
By TomZ on 4/19/2006 2:44:04 PM , Rating: 2
"Inventions" like this help remind me that we have to be careful about educating ourselves as consumers of these devices, and making sure we don't accept these types of "features" if we don't like them. Ultimately, we as consumers get to decide which products live and die in the marketplace.




RE: Consumer Education Required
By peternelson on 4/19/2006 3:01:44 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, we who ARE educated in these matters would not choose products with it.

Those who are NOT educated about it will buy them. They take them home, plug it in, then have to either call the manufacturer helpline or take it back to the shop or RMA it, because they find it is faulty. What I mean is there is an intermittent problem where the channel change or fast forward buttons on the remote stop working.

Given the low margins on high-tech products, this extra hassle for the manufacturer and retailer should act as a strong disincentive to its roll-out.

The only place I could see it being adopted is where the broadcaster OWNS and supplies the reception technology. In the UK that would be SKY with their set top boxes for satellite, or Telewest/NTL cable company who also supply their own set top boxes. SKY also plan to do tv channels over IP network in future because they bought a big ISP Easynet. Set top boxes for that too might contain this blocking technology, but then it wouldn't be using a tuner at all would it? I think Philips are onto a loser here.


You have to admit one thing though
By johnsonx on 4/19/2006 3:18:28 PM , Rating: 2
Here's the problem:

TV is paid for by advertisers. Advertisers pay because they think their message is reaching viewers. As more and more people use PVR's, fewer and fewer commercials are being watched. If this trend continues, there will be far fewer advertising dollars available to pay for TV.

What's particularly perverse about this is that the bigger hit a given show is, a higher percentage of the viewing audience will be recording it, thus skipping commercials, and therefore the commercials that pay for it will actually reach a smaller percentage of the audience. The only time I end up watching commercials is on shows I only sometimes watch; my favorite shows are all TiVo'd, and I refuse to start watching them until they're far enough along so that I can skip all the commercials (or I pull them off the TiVo, edit out the commercials, and burn to a DVD+RW to watch in the bedroom). I doubt I've ever seen a commercial during Battlestar Galactica for example.

I'm not saying Phillips new tuner is the right idea (indeed, I think it's awful), but let's at least admit there is a real problem here. Without big advertising revenue, we're going to get more and more shows where the show itself is essentially a big commercial (like The Apprentice, many game shows, or many of the shows on Food Network and Travel Channel... not saying many of those aren't entertaining, but let's admit what they are), and fewer true dramas with high production value.




By peternelson on 4/19/2006 3:38:35 PM , Rating: 2
Here in the UK, we pay the so-called "TV license" fee which funds the BBC.

Also don't forget that TV has other ways to generate money eg selling books to go with your show, selling DVD boxed sets of "Lost", making money through quiz show dialins at premium rates, promoting and merchandising show characters as toys and collectibles or even spin-off video games.

I do see your point, but there is also "product placement" within movies and shows. eg a man drinks from a can of "Coke" or uses a trendy Nokia phone in the "Matrix", or a character namedrops "Starbucks" into the conversation. This is all worth money whether obvious or subliminal.

It may be that people skip the overt ads, in which case some of that budget will move to street billboard hoardings which are harder to "channel zap".

Also there are complemenary new ad revenue streams for example teletext or "red button interactive" ads, or banner ads on internet TV.

I don't think we will escape ads just see them in different forms.

Besides "advertising gives choice" ie some ads are fun to watch, or provide useful product information about what's available.


Amazing...
By sonoran on 4/19/2006 3:22:56 PM , Rating: 2
It's amazing that someone at the company even thought this was worth spending R&D money on. I just can't see any informed consumer buying this thing. Of course it it were somehow foisted on an unsuspecting public, the next gadget developed would be a device that removes the signal that tells this thing when a commercial is playing. :)




RE: Amazing...
By Griswold on 4/19/2006 4:59:29 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is, how long does it take for other companies to think this is a good idea? First there is one, then two, then four...


Are you surprised?
By obeseotron on 4/19/2006 4:08:13 PM , Rating: 2
This sucks, but really can you blame them?

I watch a ton of TV, but haven't watched a commercial in 3 years. I got a DVR and never looked back. I'm a huge sports fan, and I even watch sports on a delay so I can skip the ads. I just can't stand them anymore, if they lock me in to 4 minutes of ads for things I don't want, I just won't watch TV.

With attitudes like this, I'm surprised this hasn't come around sooner. I'm sure Congress will soon enact the Entrenched Media Conglomerate Protection Act (sarcasm, sorta), making skipping the commercials flat out illegal.




RE: Are you surprised?
By Homerboy on 4/19/2006 4:09:58 PM , Rating: 2
read above your post


Just like DVDs...
By Ryan Norton on 4/19/2006 4:22:59 PM , Rating: 2
This would suck. Drive me nuts, just like DVDs that force you to watch previews/stare at FBI warning/endure long main menu animations. Does anybody know how to skip those? I know they have some sort of Catch-22 esque ironic name like "viewer mandated actions."




RE: Just like DVDs...
By killerroach on 4/19/2006 4:50:00 PM , Rating: 2
I just watch my DVDs on my computer using VLC, and use the DVD (simple) option to have it go straight to the movie. No hassles at all. :)


Invention?
By OCedHrt on 4/19/2006 5:47:44 PM , Rating: 2
How is this even an invention? Set unskippable flag in broadcast, have tuner lock out user when flag is set. Wow, amazing invention.




RE: Invention?
By Griswold on 4/21/2006 4:36:11 AM , Rating: 2
More impressive than a "Buy It Now!" button or a camera in the cover of a laptop or ... there have been millions of pathetic "invention", and thus patented, made.


WAIT A SEC
By Wwhat on 4/20/2006 8:06:17 AM , Rating: 2
If they have a signal in the broadcast that marks commercials so that you cannot switch channels, that would mean somone could make a device to detect that signal and auto-skip over commercials too!! :D




RE: WAIT A SEC
By Yames on 4/20/2006 11:00:58 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe a Linux HTPC :)


not to worry
By lethalchronic on 4/20/2006 9:45:59 AM , Rating: 2
Honestly people, do you really think that they can screw us like this? There is no way this is going to happen. Daily Tech readers account for a little corner in the big audience of tv watchers and were upset enough. No way can this ever happen, because even if it comes to market, I don't know about you but, I'm not gonna wait for a stupid commercial to control my tv.




RE: not to worry
By Yames on 4/20/2006 10:59:10 AM , Rating: 2
Yes they would. They already do. Ever paid for a movie and then had to watch a commercial before it began? Commercials used to pay the way to receive free services. Now you will pay to watch them.


LOL !!
By kattanna on 4/19/2006 3:14:36 PM , Rating: 3

"Philips admits that this technology may not bode well with viewers"

LOL talk about a no shit comment....





Awesome
By mark50 on 4/19/2006 9:55:11 PM , Rating: 3
This would be great if it was implemented - if the TV stations are transmitting a flag to indicate when the ads are on, I just need to find a way to have my HTPC detect it and automatically skip through the ads for me!

Unfortunately, I think that they'll realise that this technology will end up being used against them and it won't happen...




Already retracted.
By Homerboy on 4/19/2006 3:43:58 PM , Rating: 2
DT has it all wrong:

quote:
Update: Reader Paul B, who also happened to chair the group that wrote the MHP PVR specification, writes to inform us that "there is no such flag as standard in the spec. Philips could add one as a Philips-specific flag but it wouldn't apply to the other manufacturers. Secondly, as currently specificed there is no way for an MHP application to take control of the channel switching function, so changing channels always works." There you have it folks; it seems that all your MHP-equipped gear is safe -- for now.




power to the consumer
By Orpheus333 on 4/19/2006 4:45:00 PM , Rating: 2
Hey guys, Guess what TVs I wont be buying!





In other news..
By Griswold on 4/19/2006 4:57:35 PM , Rating: 2
Confronted with the question as to how viewers can be stopped from walking to the fridge or the bathroom during commercial breaks, a Philips official responded:

"We havent solved that problem yet, but we are confident that we will come up with a satisfying solution to this impertinent behavior displayed by the viewers"





!
By One43637 on 4/19/2006 5:33:52 PM , Rating: 2
"Philips admits that this technology may not bode well with viewers."

LOL no kidding. forcing people to sit through a commercial is absurd.




By breethon on 4/19/2006 6:10:35 PM , Rating: 2
A simple solution is to not buy anything from this company in the future. A simple search on the internet will tell you if a product is made or contains products by certain manufacturers. When the green isn't pouring in, they will take note. Trust me. Or you can just get rid of the TV and get a Home Theatre PC. Hook it up to your LCD tv and voila, there you go!




Thank god for the black/grey market
By Zanfib on 4/19/2006 10:00:59 PM , Rating: 2
I already know there are DVD players that totally ignore the region codes and other DRM technologies, this will be another thing that some company in China (where these types of rules never get enforced) will find a way to circumvent and that will be the tuner/TV/PCIe card or whatever I will be looking for.




By redbone75 on 4/20/2006 12:54:44 AM , Rating: 2
I mean, if I were watching a few basketball games, and wanted to check out one that I was only interested in the score of, what then? Do I quickly change the channel before they cut to a commercial break so I don't get locked into the commercial? This is stupid, stupid, stupid. Did I say this was stupid? Exactly what brilliant idiot decided that consumers wouldn't mind being forced to watch advertisements anyway? I know I never changed the channel when a commercial came on. Boy, didn't want to miss anything about products I wouldn't buy or shows I didn't want to watch. Tired of that bullsh#t with DVD's that you're forced to watch previews of garbage movies, just to remind yourself of how much that movie looks like it's going to suck so you make sure to avoid it like the plague.




What's Next?
By AggressorPrime on 4/20/2006 1:54:00 AM , Rating: 2
I can still get up for a bag of popcorn, etc. Are they next going to make special chairs that you have to sit in to watch TV that strap you down in order to make sure you watch the commercials?

This is the dumbest thing I ever heard.




In my religion....
By granulated on 4/20/2006 7:18:46 AM , Rating: 2
In my religion it's forbidden to watch adverts depicting any form of life wearing GAP clothing.

We'd have grounds to sue!.. Sue I tells ya !




Commercials are everywhere...
By InternetGeek on 4/20/2006 7:27:42 AM , Rating: 2
Why are there commercials on cable tv as well?. And if TIVO is a paid service, why do they play commercials at all?. I'm not going to pay stations to play paid advertisements. If i pay for TV I expect no commercials.




what
By Wwhat on 4/20/2006 8:04:13 AM , Rating: 2
HAS THE WORLD GONE COMPLETELY INSANE




Clockwork Orange
By Fnoob on 4/20/2006 9:17:45 AM , Rating: 2
Once we figure out a way to circumvent this, the next step will become the "Clockwork Orange" style eyelid prying open method prefered by most broadcasters. Coming your way in 2010.




Do you people even read?
By Homerboy on 4/20/2006 10:31:34 AM , Rating: 2
Read my comment above... the "skipping commercials" has already been debunked 100xs




One word: Ludicrous
By ZardozFrayn on 4/20/2006 1:50:02 PM , Rating: 2
But if they paid enough politicians to make it mandatory, how long would it be before we have a bank of "tuners" then an input switcher?!




This would die out quickly.
By Xiann on 4/20/2006 3:14:15 PM , Rating: 2
Justs about everyone desires the ability to skip commercials so implementing this while other tuners are available would be marketing suicide.

They'd also have to work out other flaws such as if the viewer didn't want to even watch TV but swap to another input channel such as a DVD player or game console. Repeatedly landing on channels while channel surfing that are playing commericials.

Would infomercials count? It would suck to get stuck on a three hour infomercial.

What about commercials for products that are inappropriate for the viewer? I imagine some people would get pissed if they couldn't skip a Girls-Gone-Wild commericial while their child was present.




No.
By gez on 4/20/2006 11:53:59 PM , Rating: 2
No, just not going to happen. If they do this, expect torrent traffic to grow exponentially. And expect older, commercial-skipping DVRs to be worth their weight in gold. They have to be kidding.





By crystal clear on 4/21/2006 2:37:38 AM , Rating: 2
I can take the broadcaster to court-All I need is a good lawyer.There are plenty of lawyer waiting to make a fat buck without me paying a cent.




Just use Tivo
By Daxel on 4/21/2006 4:19:59 PM , Rating: 2
We are talking about the Tuner here - right? Tivo records to and MPEG2 file, and when you watch the recording, you are watching this stored file - bypassing the tuner as it has already done its job. Therefore Tivo would have to have specific code created in the playback mode of MPEG2 to force you to stop the Tivo keys from working. So, unless Phillips buys Tivo, I can't see this happening to those of us that have Tivo.
Long live the Tivolution!




By Cheesetogo on 4/21/2006 6:13:13 PM , Rating: 2
It's one thing not to be able to fastforward, but not being able to change the channel? Absoulutely rediculous.




Won't fly
By horsecharles on 4/21/2006 7:07:11 PM , Rating: 2
Firstly, it will be hacked. Secondly--even in the unlikely event all major manufacturers adopted that, there would be so much demand for hardware without that, that others would step up to the plate and make it. $$$ cures all evils & where there's a will there's a way......




Just the thing for My TV Addiction
By thilde on 4/21/2006 10:50:02 PM , Rating: 2
Finally some interprising manufacturer has created just right product that will irritate just enough to just stop watching television altogether.

Tivo Got me addicted and now Philips will set me free.

Thank you Philips!

Now I will have time to rediscover all of lifes little pleasures, i.e., sunshine, books, human interaction etc....all the things I gave up to keep my tivo from filling up.




what i have to say
By Mudvillager on 4/20/2006 11:20:39 AM , Rating: 1
always hated philips and always will. in other words: fuck you philips.




"Nowadays, security guys break the Mac every single day. Every single day, they come out with a total exploit, your machine can be taken over totally. I dare anybody to do that once a month on the Windows machine." -- Bill Gates









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