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Peugeot 308 Hybrid HDi   (Source: Green Car Congress)
Peugeot's 308 Hybrid HDi to achieve 69MPG

In June, DailyTech brought you details on Peugeot's intention to deliver a diesel-electric hybrid to European drivers. Peugeot stated that the diesel-electric 308 hatchback would achieve over 70MPG on the European cycle.

Peugeot is coming closer to the goal with the announcement of the 308 Hybrid HDi. The vehicle will be showcased at the Frankfurt Motor Show and could reach regular production in 2010.

The 308 Hybrid HDi uses a 107HP 1.6-liter HDI DPFS diesel engine (Euro 5 emissions compliant) in conjunction with a 16 kW electric motor to provide a combined output of 129HP. The electric motor is supplied power via a 200V NiMH battery that is charged via regenerative braking. Power is channeled through the front wheels using a semi-automatic 6-speed transmission.

Peugeot claims that the 308 Hybrid HDi consumes just 3.4 liter per 100 kilometers which translates to 69 MPG for U.S. consumption. CO2 emissions are also 38 percent lower than a comparable 308 diesel.

The market for hybrids is expanding and the addition of diesel-electric hybrids is more than welcome.

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Not bad
By FITCamaro on 8/30/2007 1:29:50 PM , Rating: 3
Only downside is that my head would be in the damn windshield with how far that thing rakes back. Other than that the car doesn't look that bad.

Pretty sad the the diesel engine manages more horsepower than some gas engines in small cars here in the US. And I'm sure the torque is better.




RE: Not bad
By mdogs444 on 8/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Not bad
By Moishe on 8/30/2007 1:47:44 PM , Rating: 3
at 5'11" you're not big... That's one of the complaints I have about a lot of the newer cars. They seem to be more snug in general.

I've owned a Miata for about 8 years and am used to it, BUT I expect a 2 seat convertible to be small. With the driver seat all the way back I'm at the edge of being too tall (5'10").

I sat in a new Yukon about two years ago and I was surprised at how they designed the thing to be snug. I was actually fairly shocked. The vehicle is huge but the stuff fits around you like a womb. It really makes me wonder if Americans are used to large space inside the vehicle and if car companies are purposefully making things more snug to get people used to the feeling. I know that eventually cars will mostly be small and just enough to get by.

Personally I like comfort and I don't like things getting in the way of my arms and legs... I find that happens with a lot of newer cars (unless you push the seats back). It's as if cars are being designed for smaller people.


RE: Not bad
By lufoxe on 8/30/2007 1:47:51 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Why cant they start making some nice diesel electric motors in higher output to about 200-250HP range that get 40-50MPG and slap them in an SUV?


The reason is simple... weight. These hybrid cars are relatively light (until they add the battery) it's rare to see a small care weigh 3K lbs, but on an SUV it's common to see that and more.


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 1:55:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
it's rare to see a small care weigh 3K lbs, but on an SUV it's common to see that and more.
Most mid size SUV's weigh atleast 4000lbs actually, which validates your point even more. Off the top of my head i think his qx45 must weigh close to 4500. Hell a civic weighs 2000 heh, and thats the base model.


RE: Not bad
By FITCamaro on 8/30/2007 2:04:22 PM , Rating: 3
A base Civic Coupe is 2586 lbs. Only the tiniest, lightest cars are anywhere near 2000 lbs.


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 2:22:34 PM , Rating: 2
They are up to 2500 now? my 1992 civic dx only weighed 2k heh. Then again the 92 felt like a tin can..


RE: Not bad
By FNG on 8/30/2007 2:50:56 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, I think the Lotus Elise is something like 2040lbs.


RE: Not bad
By theapparition on 8/31/2007 2:49:07 PM , Rating: 2
And that's the base, I think the top line model is closer to 2800.


RE: Not bad
By Merry on 8/30/2007 1:52:25 PM , Rating: 3

Seriously, talk about having to Lean Back in that car. I swear, all those little hatchbacks that are so popular in Europe must be made for midgets.

The car is bigger than the picture seems to make out. Trust me, i've seen one in the flesh.

On another note I wouldnt want to buy this Peugeot. Its predecessor, the 307 was dogged with electrical problems, and its likely that this model will be too.

I for one wouldnt want to be driving a hybrid that has been made by one of the most unreliable car manufacturers, according to a number of consumer satisfaction surveys.

Also, how exactly is an Audi A4 too small for you? Are you some sort of giant? The A4 is considered large by European standards. Also I think you're asking a bit much of Car manufacturers to produce a powerful SUV that gives that sort of mileage. The closest you'd probably get is a conventional SUV such as the Nissan Quashai, which also happens to be very safe by all accounts, as it nearly achieved a full score in its EuroNCAP crash test.


RE: Not bad
By mdogs444 on 8/30/07, Rating: 0
RE: Not bad
By Merry on 8/30/2007 2:02:50 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I understand that, I just found it somewhat odd that the Audi A4 was being described as small. Its certainly bigger inside then my current car is!

Its clear theres a fundamental difference in perceptions of size depending on which side of the Atlantic your from. It doesnt half make me smile when i see cars such as the Jetta and the Focus being described as 'compact' whereas I see them as being fairly large.

Just for the record I drive one of these http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Punto#Mark_1


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 2:27:28 PM , Rating: 2
But look at your acceleration: 0–100 km/h: 15.0s. If it took me 15 seconds to get too 100 here in Canada i would have been hit by a truck at least 10 times by now on the highway ;) For city driving its more than enough though, and the sport models look pretty cool too, funny how they cut the time from 0-100 in half though haha.


RE: Not bad
By Merry on 8/30/2007 2:40:47 PM , Rating: 2
I believe its official 0-60mph is about 14 seconds. You could probably do better than that. you have to bear in mind its a 1.1 litre engine!

I've done 30,000 miles of motorway driving with it since I bought it second hand and never had any problems at all. Its plenty capable of doing anything up to 100mph. Not that I would do that, of course ;)


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 2:48:21 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Its plenty capable of doing anything up to 100mph. Not that I would do that, of course ;)
Oh the max speed is not my problem i am sure you would never have a need to be going 160kmh, but 14-15 seconds is a long time to get to the minimum speed required for a highway. Here in Canada its not unusual for people to go 120kmh in the far right lane especially on a certain toll road i take every morning. The onramps are just not long enough, and i consider onramps where I live to be pretty big, but in some places in the city its no more than 50-60 metres


RE: Not bad
By Keeir on 8/30/2007 2:49:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I believe its official 0-60mph is about 14 seconds


Usually in the US, your lucky if you can do the offical 0-60mph time as its done by a "professional".

The problem is that on many transitions from city-highway driving, 14s+ on a level surface is not going to cut it (for safety). I can think of at least a dozen transitions from 0 (red light) -60mph (speed limit of road) on entrance ramps that take an average of ~8 seconds. Some of them are even uphill!. I gun it in my A4 (1.8T) and don't feel that safe since I am essentially dumped on to a 60+mph road going 55 or less. Entering a US highway going ~60% of the speed limit is not a good thing. Keep in mind that Semi's in the US are also bigger and less manuverable than Europeans Semis.


RE: Not bad
By Merry on 8/30/2007 2:59:35 PM , Rating: 2
I've no idea what the motorways are like in Canada and the US, I can only speak from my experience on UK roads and as I've said i've never had a problem merging onto motorways at all, indeed it frequently annoys me when people in front of me dawdle onto a motorway at 50mph. Most of the time I can get up to about 60-65mph before hitting the motorway, which is fine as trucks typically travel at 55mph.

Of course you can now get a car the same size as mine, which is just as efficient, but faster (See the Grande Punto in the article i linked). As i've said before I would always choose a smaller conventional car over a bigger Hybrid.


RE: Not bad
By Keeir on 8/31/2007 12:51:04 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I've no idea what the motorways are like in Canada and the US, I can only speak from my experience on UK roads and as I've said i've never had a problem merging onto motorways at all, indeed it frequently annoys me when people in front of me dawdle onto a motorway at 50mph.


That is pretty obvious Merry. But something people in the US/Canada find very annoying is a European lecturing us on what to drive and whats "sufficient". North America has three very important charactistics that help drive the desire for big heavy automobiles/trucks.

1. Population Density (US is 31/sq km versus UK at 246/sq km)- North America is a Big place. In many areas you can literially drive for hours without even a coffee place. NA cars have to be comfortable for long drive times at high speeds on rough roads.

2. Poor City Planning. Not unique to NA (and slightly unfair since I haven't driven in more than 20-30 cities seriously). It seems that often in the US Highways have effective speed limites of 70-80 mph even in cities. And yes, the Semi's travel at 70-80 mph as well. Most on-ramps seems to be built in American Cities for 1960s level of traffic.

3. Cold Winter. Most parts of NA get significantly more snow/freezing rain than most parts of Europe. Yes there are exceptions but 1/3-1/2 of NA absolutely must consider cold weather safety and performance since it is a concern for 1/3 of the year.

These three factors lead to a baseline for success in imported cars. Wheel Base>100in. Wieght>3000lbs. 0-60mph<10s. Cold Weather Reliability.

I saw an article in the Wall Street Journal yesterday. Audi recently introducted the A3 sized car to the US market. It sold 8,000 cars. In comparison the A4 car sold 50,000 cars. The A4 is although a "large" car, the tipping point for size, safety (all-wheel drive), cold weather performance, etc that make it acceptable to NA drivers. A "smaller" car would be acceptable, but it needs to first address those unique issues to North America otherwise it will be a failure (unless incredibly cheap which is hard for imported cars).


RE: Not bad
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 3:00:22 PM , Rating: 2
Hello from another fellow A4 owner!

Anyway, I agree - here in Michigan we even have a few "no ramp" entries onto the expressway. I am thinking of one on the North side of Ann Arbor, where you literally have to stop, and then enter traffic on a 55MPH rated highway. There is a tiny ramp, uphill mind you, so you better be prepared to gun it on that one.

Here's a view of that entryway, in case anyone's interested:

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=a...

The white line is where you have to stop (there is a stop sign), and then just a few car lengths and you get to merge.

In my opinion, the faster you can equalize your speed with the speed of other traffic, the faster you are. On the highway, differentials in speed are dangerous, so having some reserve power (torque) to be able to quickly accelerate in certain situations is pretty important for safety. And that also has the side benefit of being more fun, too!


RE: Not bad
By marvdmartian on 8/30/2007 3:57:34 PM , Rating: 2
Aw, that entry's no worse than the one on the San Francisco/Oakland Bay Bridge, at Treasure Island, when you want to get back on the bridge heading toward Oakland (eastbound). I remember when I was stationed there, in the late 80's, and we'd have 3 hefty guys in one of those ridiculous little "Dodge Ram 50" (Mitsubishi Mighty Max) pickups. Dang on ramp is maybe 100 feet long, and traffic is supposedly only going 50mph (more like 60 or more!!), and we're trying not to get killed getting back on the bridge.......boy, were we glad when they got rid of that for our "shop truck", and got us a full sized Dodge truck!! :)

As far as getting on the highway at speed, forget about that where I live now. Seems Texans just aren't interested in attaining the 60mph speed limit getting on the highway. Believe me, I've been stuck behind the occasional redneck in a POS (that probably shouldn't even be on the road), that might get up to 35mph when they enter the highway! Geez, give it some gas already!!!


RE: Not bad
By sdsdv10 on 8/30/2007 11:36:43 PM , Rating: 2
Ah yes, Barton Drive. I have had the displeasure of that interchange only a few times. My first thought was the Jackson Rd on-ramp to EB I94 just east of M-14. Race down the ramp, jam on your brakes for the 90 degree turn 3/4's of the way down and then floor it in an attempt to accelerate up to speed on a uphill right hand sweeping turn, all in a pretty bad blind spot for on-coming traffic. Nice...


RE: Not bad
By otispunkmeyer on 8/31/2007 8:34:21 AM , Rating: 2
we have some nasty no ramp entrys to the A19 where i live. some of them are almost just country lanes tacked on to main road and dont even have so much as a slip road leading to them

yeah i have been scared sometimes when i have pulled out on to these when everyone else is doing 80-90 and im doing 0.

also we have farm equipment and other drivers that need to cross the dual carraige way. thats pretty scary as well when your approaching them at 70 and they suddenly decide to make it across...you get a little doubt in your head that they arent going to make it!

in my car its definately not a nice experience because even if you rag it to the red line in a bid to make swift movement its still pretty slow.

i remember exiting the motorway once on my pass plus lessons, it was one of those no ramp/slip way exits. yup i arrived at a 120 deg corner at 70mph.... that was fun.


RE: Not bad
By theapparition on 8/31/2007 2:53:38 PM , Rating: 2
Try entering the Autobahn from a stop sign, where traffic is going 90mph+.

Or even the Merrit parkway in CT, where traffic usually goes even faster :-)


RE: Not bad
By otispunkmeyer on 8/31/2007 8:28:38 AM , Rating: 2
according to ford, my 1.4 focus takes 14seconds to hit 60.

well when i drive it it sure doesnt feel like that long. but like the other guy said it really isnt a problem. there are alot of these cars around on our roads so most people are in the same boat.

having said that, i have no trouble getting to 70 by the time i must merge. its all about how you drive it. a car with a small engine you just gotta be prepared to change gears more often to keep in the power band, and plan a little further ahead because you havent got the power to just whisk you out of a hairy situation.

its a very pre-emptive driving style where you carry good momentum at all times becuase if you get bogged down the engine wont be pulling you out. you end up with a very fluid/flowing style...though it really puts the dampers on the small engines economy because your're constantly ragging its tits to get good forward motion from it.

definately makes you think more about what you are doing as a driver, you gotta think about whats gonna happen rather than just let it happen and then be saved by the grunt of a V8.


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/31/2007 10:34:45 AM , Rating: 2
the 1.4 is a manual though is it not? I am sure ratings are for if you change gears at around 3k RPM every time like an automatic would. But thats not how you drive is it ;) You probably hit high 4's or higher when getting on the highway.


RE: Not bad
By bluebohemian on 9/18/2007 2:49:45 PM , Rating: 2
Here are the real numbers: 0 to 62 mph/100kph: 12.2s (1.6L) 11.0s (2.0L). No a problem vs. many small cars on the market for years. Remember, even though small engine, it is the electric motors that support acceleration and why hybrid have actually faster acceleration vs. pure combustion of same or even larger size. Electric motors have MAX TORQUE from 0RPM from the get-go.


RE: Not bad
By leexgx on 8/30/2007 9:28:27 PM , Rating: 2
i not an fan with Peugeot to much me self seems that theres to many things that can make problems like the car not starting is one

have to agree when i am in my car seems like there is plenty of space but in the SUV seems smaller allso seem to move around the seat when going around corners

i probly not picked an car thats to everyones likeing (maybe not relible seems ok to me had 2 of them before)
i got an Fiat Punto van 1.3 TDI apart from the engine (its an diesel so that not be an problem just keep fresh oil in it) not much els can fail on it, can fit most alot of stuff in it as well

i get 45MPG UK (350m min to 400+ on an £31/$62 tank) and most of that is city driveing


RE: Not bad
By Verran on 8/30/2007 1:57:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I have an Audi A4 4 door, and its still a little bit more cramp than i like, which is why i make my gf take the Audi and I drive the FX45.

That's very odd because a friend of mine has an A4 sedan that I've driven a few times, and I never had a problem (and I'm 6'5" 240lbs). It's not roomy like an '84 Olds wagon with a front bench seat, but it's not bad either.

I've actually found that my little '02 Focus hatch is roomier than most other vehicles I drive. Small cars don't necessarily have to have a cramped driver seat.


RE: Not bad
By Spivonious on 8/30/2007 2:48:30 PM , Rating: 2
Amen on the Focus. I always get compliments from tall people in the backseat on the vast amount of headroom.


RE: Not bad
By otispunkmeyer on 8/31/2007 8:36:48 AM , Rating: 2
same here, on the inside it really has got bags of room and even the 3 door is nice and spacious inside. its also got a most capacious boot (trunk to you)

really well designed car.


RE: Not bad
By albertdup on 8/30/2007 4:53:00 PM , Rating: 1
I am 6'04 and drive a Citroen C4 and I can assure you there is more than enough leg and head room. I hate it when my Mohawk press against the roof, not with this car.

I guess it comes down to taste, the amount of money I am saving on petrol (gas for you US) allows me to enjoy other things in life.

But then again maybe the US have too much money that's why they can waste it on expensive fuel wasting auto mobiles.

my 2c


RE: Not bad
By JonnyDough on 8/30/2007 10:02:46 PM , Rating: 1
Trying being 6'8" and driving any car or shopping for clothes. :-\


RE: Not bad
By herrdoktor330 on 8/30/2007 11:58:53 PM , Rating: 2
To address your question of Horsepower: It's the nature of diesel engines. Diesel engines simply don't produce massive amounts of horsepower without 10cyl and large displacement, which goes against the idea of economy. The important thing to note is that while diesels don't produce massive horsepower (which is for top end acceleration), diesels do produce lots of low end torque (strength behind the wheel in turning) which is why they are used primarily for towing, shipping, and large marine use.

But the biggest incentive of Diesel is that it doesn't rely on petroleum based fuels, which is the reason why Rudolph Diesel invented the engine in the first place. In theory, agrarian countries could produce enough vegetable based diesel fuel to quench the world's thirst for energy... assuming emissions don't push a greenhouse effect and the ethanol refining process can be made more efficient. But moving away from gasoline powerplants to diesel is a step in the right direction, in my opinion. Plus it will give a chance for new companies who want to develop business models around making renewable fuel. Or current energy companies (Esso, BP, and so on) could re-invent themselves into more eco-friendly companies that could make billions off farming corn and soy.

My only regret is that they don't sell Peugeot in the states. Maybe Volkswagen will take a cue from them... or Ford, Chevy, and Dodge.


RE: Not bad
By Frallan on 8/31/2007 3:11:59 AM , Rating: 2
Wohaa...

Ok Wrong - it used to be so but not any more. My family drives the "new" 5 series BMW 3 litre Diesel 6-cyl engine at 300hp (albeit a little bit tuned). And it produces the same amount of tourqe the Porche 911 Turbo (my fathers)does and is almost as fast.

Som Diesel engines today are better in all regards then their Gas Brethrenen, oh btw did I mention that the Porche is a guzzler w. 15-16 litres per 100km and the BMW does the same in 9-10,5 per 100km under the same conditions.

/F


RE: Not bad
By otispunkmeyer on 8/31/2007 8:47:01 AM , Rating: 2
add to that because of the way diesel engines work (no SI, just compression till the mixture goes bang) they need a long stroke which is why they dont rev as high. since power is a torque x revs (in radians per sec) they dont make as much power overall. the combustion of the diesel fuel exerts more force on the piston because diesel fuel has alot more energy to be released from it than petrol (jus gotta work harder to release it). so the force is higer than that of petrol, hence you get more torque than an quivalent petrol engine.

(torque is roughly just the force exerted from the combustion on the piston x perpendicular distance to the crank shaft)

so yeah a good way to get more power is to have more cylinders.


RE: Not bad
By otispunkmeyer on 8/31/2007 8:15:24 AM , Rating: 1
its not like that at all, compared to other cars in the class like the ford focus the 308 (successor to the 307) is actually a rather large chunky car, its got an almost mini-van feel to it, where you sit quite away back from the windshield.

the car is definately bigger than a focus, at least on the outside if the 307 is anything to go by. its a nice car the 307 but id never have one... the french car makers always languish at the bottom end of satisfaction and reliability surveys.


RE: Not bad
By otispunkmeyer on 8/31/2007 8:18:15 AM , Rating: 1
also im 6ft 3in an i fit inside a ford Ka pretty easy, and its comfortable too. and that is one small car, you americans would probably class it as a lawnmower


RE: Not bad
By Calin on 9/1/2007 10:41:11 AM , Rating: 2
"Im willing to sacrifice performance for our environment, but not sacrifice what i consider safe & comfortable."

Then why not use a 107 HP engine in your big car? You will get lesser performance, better fuel efficiency, but the same safe and comfortable car.


RE: Not bad
By Misty Dingos on 8/30/2007 1:37:50 PM , Rating: 2
That is a freakish amount of glass. I am not sure I would like to have to pay to replace that. If it goes as far back on the roof as it seems it might even be a roll over hazard. But hey this is a European car and it is not likely to show up in the USA without extensive reworking. Because we have more lawyers than anyone else in the world!


RE: Not bad
By Moishe on 8/30/2007 1:50:06 PM , Rating: 2
it's definitely "unique" which makes it more appealing to a lot of people... but that windshield replacement would certainly cost a fortune :)


RE: Not bad
By masher2 (blog) on 8/30/2007 1:54:47 PM , Rating: 2
There appears to be a dividing line separating the windshield glass from the sunroof. Were it to break, I don't think you'd have to replace the entire section.

Actually, I like the look of the vehicle, and I'm a big fan of D-E hybrids. Unfortunately, its a Peugeot...which means I'll never even consider buying it.


RE: Not bad
By PlasmaBomb on 8/30/2007 2:31:10 PM , Rating: 2
The windscreen looks quite like the Vauxhall Astra's panoramic windscreen.

http://www.carpages.co.uk/vauxhall/vauxhall_astra_...

The windscreen almost goes back to the end of the passenger door :D

quote:
Unfortunately, its a Peugeot...which means I'll never even consider buying it.
too right :D


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 2:20:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
But hey this is a European car and it is not likely to show up in the USA without extensive reworking.
Its not likely to show up in the US at all! have you ever seen a peugeot in North America? They are everywhere in France, but i have probably seen one in my life time in North America.


RE: Not bad
By Spivonious on 8/30/2007 2:25:50 PM , Rating: 2
To further support you, Peugeots are everywhere in Europe, not just France.

From the few times I've been over there the most popular cars were Mercedes, BMW, Ford, Peugeot, Renault, Citroen, and Volkswagen.

I thought it was neat that in Scotland the police drove Focuses.


RE: Not bad
By helios220 on 8/30/2007 2:42:02 PM , Rating: 2
You'd have a better chance marketing a Peugeot in the US if people didn't know they were French.

Most Americans will accept driving German cars, perhaps because the Germans have managed to maintain their image of cold Teutonic efficiency. Outside of that, most Americans have learned to accept driving Japanese primarily because they have proven themselves over time but perhaps the stereotype of Asians being intelligent and industrious makes it an easier pill to swallow that they produce better cars.

Alas, French cars... you can belittle me to your hearts content but I am not making any claim that US manufacturers are of superior quality than some of the European manufacturers that have not achieved success in the US. Instead, I believe that for some or perhaps even most people the social factors, such as the premise that widespread purchase of Peugeots would somehow be another admittance of national engineering defeat would prevent a car such as this from gaining traction in the US even if it did turn out to be a quality product.


RE: Not bad
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 2:53:06 PM , Rating: 2
I agree - Americans would never accept a French-made car, never. The prejudice may be irrational, but it is clearly present.

In addition to the reasons you state, which I agree with, I also think a major reason is that the aesthetic tastes between Americans and French are very different. I think French cars generally luck "ugly" to Americans, and I would assume American cars probably look ugly to the French.


RE: Not bad
By masher2 (blog) on 8/30/2007 3:22:07 PM , Rating: 2
Renault sold quite a few cars in America in the 1980s. The Fuego was one, though there were, I believe, a few other models for sale. They never did break even on North American operations, though, so I doubt they'll be back any time soon.


RE: Not bad
By rgsaunders on 8/30/2007 2:37:09 PM , Rating: 2
Your exposure has been limited. Are you under the perception that the US makes up North America, if so, you are sadly mistaken. I grant you that Peugeot is not widely sold here in Canada, which, the last time I looked, was the larger part of North America, however it is still seen on our roads occasionally, although not as frequently now as it was back in the 70s.


RE: Not bad
By helios220 on 8/30/2007 2:50:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Your exposure has been limited. Are you under the perception that the US makes up North America, if so, you are sadly mistaken. I grant you that Peugeot is not widely sold here in Canada, which, the last time I looked, was the larger part of North America, however it is still seen on our roads occasionally, although not as frequently now as it was back in the 70s.


You are totally right, his original post might well have just said 'Hey Canucks, why don't you go f#%*k yourselves'.
Good thing you were there to right that injustice.

There are 24 sovereign nations that constitute North America, yet you only appear to be offended over the absence of one... well it's a good thing you pointed out his obvious national bias.

</pretending to be offended by every minor oversight mode>


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 3:04:34 PM , Rating: 2
Oh shut up, Americans think the world revolves around them.
We have TV shows here where someone will go down and interviews random Americans on the street, and you would not imagine how many people thought the prime minister was 'Mr Tim Horton' or how many other people couldn't point out Canada on a map(as huge and directly above the states as it may be). You happen to be 1-100 people that thinks differently, i commend you but its not like most Americans don't have their head in the sand when it comes to other countries.


RE: Not bad
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 3:38:29 PM , Rating: 2
Many Americans are ill-informed about lots of things, not just about Canada. Many Americans know little/nothing about our history, our government, our geography - let alone know something about that of other countries.

Is Mr. Horton still in office, by the way? :o)


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 4:29:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Is Mr. Horton still in office, by the way? :o)
Oh ya for sure! he just recently got a double-double!

Tomz i know Americans know little about their own history but here are a few lines from the show, even you would probably not believe the words that come out of peoples mouths:

He got people to..
congratulating Canadians on classifying Labrador Retrievers as elephants, to prevent them from being used for hard labour

asking university students and professors to sign a petition against Saskatchewan seal hunt and Toronto polar bear hunt(one was a Harvard professor)

asking Americans which country should be bombed next, and then ask them to point to that country on a map. One person thought France should be bombed; when asked to point it on the map, he just pointed at the country which had France written in it (which actually was Australia)

congratulating Canada on legalizing the stapler

asking Americans what they felt about the Russian invasion of Chechnya and Saskatchewan

And thats only a few of them, regardless of where you are from, you must have your head in the sand to fall for these things


RE: Not bad
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 8:25:34 PM , Rating: 2
Now that's funny!


RE: Not bad
By theapparition on 8/31/2007 2:58:50 PM , Rating: 2
I think you'll find that most counties don't have citizens who are anywhere close to being factually accurate about their country's history and policies.


RE: Not bad
By helios220 on 8/30/2007 3:38:54 PM , Rating: 2
I never make any attempt to justify or discredit the fact that there are many Americans who are blissfully ignorant that most of the rest of the world even exists, yet alone of any further details beyond that level of abstraction.

Yet, I am constantly amused by comments that point out a close-mindedness or national bias with a close-minded and nationally bias statement.

Almost every DT reader is biased by their national perspective; I merely find it interesting that there are many who believe that Americans are the only ones who pay attention to their own country more than others.

quote:
Oh shut up, Americans think the world revolves around them.


While I agree that my earlier post was a little heavy on the reactionary sarcasm, its statements like that that is a perfect example of the type of gross-generalization and reinforcement of stereotypes that Americans are constantly accused of making. Does it have some basis in truth? Yes of course, but I must have forgot that Americans are the only ones in the world who aren't allowed to say something stupid without getting it blamed on their nationality.

People are stupid. People live in all countries. Therefore stupid people live in all countries. Yay math.


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 4:13:05 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry i over reacted too, i was just mad the idiot made the comment in the first place as I am Canadian, then I read your post and it didn't make me too happy either. And you are right, everyone pays more attention to their own country than others, but you have to admit, Americans pay less attention, especially with the resources most of them have. You also can't blame a cuban with no money that can't read and does not have a TV for being oblivious about any other country.


RE: Not bad
By andrinoaa on 8/30/2007 5:57:10 PM , Rating: 2
Did you see the beauty queen on TV the other day?
She killed your arguement stone cold!! LOL LOL LOL
Sorry I couldn't resist. I had such a laugh.

Hear in Australia, we suffer the same repression as the Canadians.
I drive a little honda jazz, 1.3Lt cvt car. I am very happy with the performance! I have had big V6 GM cars before and loved the power. However, you DON'T need it. If you rely on power for safety, man, something else is wrong. If you don't have it, you adapt. After all , isn't that a human trait?
If you seriously think it's an issue, have a look around the world to see what other people do. You will find everybodyelse HAS adapted. Americans are no different to other peoples around the world (well maybe not.....LOL)


RE: Not bad
By Spivonious on 8/30/2007 3:46:08 PM , Rating: 2
Most Americans cannot point out George Bush. I wouldn't be worried about identifying the name of the Canadian PM (which, by the way, I have no idea who it is.)


RE: Not bad
By helios220 on 8/30/2007 3:55:46 PM , Rating: 2
And 90% of statistics are made up on the spot. See?

Maybe I just need to start hanging out with stupider people, but I have a hard time believing the accuracy of some of these sample based statistics as truly representive of the population.

All and all, I apologize for aiding the downward sprial of this debate into some sort of pointless national squabble, when we should be talking about some ugly French cars ;)

Oh well, that's all I have for the day...


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 4:16:06 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
stupider
I always love that one. How can you call someone stupid when you can not even use the word correctly.


RE: Not bad
By helios220 on 8/30/2007 4:56:52 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
I always love that one. How can you call someone stupid when you can not even use the word correctly.


While I don't spell check my comments or really even proof-read them for that matter since this is a forum, you did pique my interest on this one.

stu•pid
adjective, -er, -est, noun

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/stupider%20

Granted, had I been worrying about my grammar I would have phrased the statement differently, but the term stupider is clearly defined as an adjective form of stupid.


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 6:37:19 PM , Rating: 2
You are right, its in the dictionary, but it still sounds stupid when using it in that way. Its a well known fact that when the adjective has more than one syllable you are not suppose to use er" "est," or anything like that, you should being using the word "more" for "er" and "most" for "est".
Its just REALLY contradicting thats all. Otherwise why dont we all just start talking like idiots. "I really should be alerter, or the resulting car crash would have made me stupider"


RE: Not bad
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 8:36:09 PM , Rating: 2
I just can't think of any word that sounds stupider than "stupider." Wow, I can even use it in a sentence.


RE: Not bad
By Ringold on 8/30/2007 3:51:33 PM , Rating: 2
Lets be intellectually honest, here.

America is of supreme importance to the economic wellbeing and national security of Canada.

Canada could fall in to the Arctic this weekend and Main Street USA might notice by December.

Given the different sizes of the economies and population, US media, 'culture' and business dominates Canada -- but almost nothing seeps back south of the border. The vast majority of the Canadian population lives within 100 miles of the US border -- but very few American's live within 100 miles of Canada.

On the other hand, most American's probably know who Vladimir Putin is, for example, or Kim Jong Il or 'Frank' (I'm too lazy to Google to get Iran's presidents name properly spelt, but many American's would recognize it). Why? One is our former Cold War dancing partner, one shot a hole in one his first time golfing, and the other has oil and wants nukes.

I'll agree with whoever it was that said America is blessed to have Canada as a neighbor, and we are, but I think Canadians are asking a little much for American's to know that Stephen Harper is Prime Minister; it would almost be impossible for Harper to impact American life in any way whatsoever, and thanks to relentless dismantling of a once respected military post-WW2, Canada almost never makes a splash in international news unless some Quebeckers whine about Afghanistan (which only a small number of Americans would hear through international papers like The Economist). There's simply no reason for American's to keep an eye on Canada.


RE: Not bad
By mdogs444 on 8/30/2007 3:53:16 PM , Rating: 2
No offense to Canada from me personally - but I dont really care about the country. I mean - I have no clue who their PM is either. And i agree with you - but just by tv alone, dont justify how many stupid people there are in the united states. But cmon man - theres stupid people everywhere - i can promise you not everyone in canada knows who the pm is either.

Alot of people from the US kind of see canada as just a small dot on the map. They do not get involved much with the bigger countries when it comes to world issues, they do not have that much of a military either. I wouldnt say that americans hate canada, they just dont pay attention to it.


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 4:19:06 PM , Rating: 2
The example of who the Prime Minister is not making fun of the fact you do not know who it is, its the fact its the name of the famous Canadian coffee and donuts restaurant. You guys have Tim Hortons too, or you should have at least heard of it by now. I have never even ate at a Dunkin Donuts but i know what that is ;)


RE: Not bad
By SandmanWN on 8/30/2007 6:00:44 PM , Rating: 2
If it hasn't been made painfully obvious by now Americans could care less what your most popular chain of donut restaurant is. The US has more donut chains than most people could possibly remember. Why would anyone take the time to learn who the PM of Canada is when they barely get involved in anything International other than attempt to belittle another nation that had the balls to do something.


RE: Not bad
By mindless1 on 8/30/2007 7:26:14 PM , Rating: 2
Why in the world would I want to find Canada on a map if Canadians think this way? <stereotyping example>

Don't stereotype, finding a few asses that happen to be American says nothing about the others.


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 2:51:57 PM , Rating: 2
........ I'm Canadian.. thats why i said North America, if i was american do you really think i would have said it that way? Please don't try and tell me you see them all the time, because i log more miles on the road than most people as i travel from one side of Toronto to the other every day, and i still can not remember the last time i saw one ;)


RE: Not bad
By SmokeRngs on 8/31/2007 9:43:30 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'm Canadian.. thats why i said North America, if i was american


Actually, you are an American. Funny how people seem to think the only Americans are from the US. There is the North American continent and the South American continent. Anyone whom is a citizen of a country on either continent is an American.

Sorry, just had to pick on you for that a little bit.


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/31/2007 10:41:32 AM , Rating: 2
No.. I am still Canadian, but i am also North American. Just because england is in Europe doesn't make someone just European, they would also be British. Why i am even arguing this i do not know..


RE: Not bad
By Hoser McMoose on 8/30/2007 5:22:16 PM , Rating: 2
Peugeot's might be common in your little corner of Canada, but I have to say it's been a LONG time since I've seen one! Actually I can't remember EVER seeing a Peugeot car here (I did own a Peugeot bicycle for a while, but I don't think that counts!), and I was born in the 70's. They definitely haven't been sold here for a LONG time.

I do remember seeing some Renault's over the years, but even those are all long since in the scrap yard.

However I thought I remembered seeing some Peugeot's in Mexico the last time I was there? I can't remember for sure (too many cervezas and tequilas :) ) but I think there were some.


RE: Not bad
By theoflow on 8/30/2007 2:23:27 PM , Rating: 2
First off, I think it is important to separate the difference between driver space and passenger space.

If your below 6'2" (and of average width) you can pretty much sit in the drivers seat of any post 2000 car, relatively nicely. You might not have the optimal reach and view, but you can fit comfortably. And no, not everyone has the same comfortable seating position, those HR ergonomic classes come to mind.

As for the passenger space, things are a totally different story. I think the concentration should be specifically about the people in back, since the front passenger mostly fits comfortably. The Audi A4, BMW 3 series, and C Class Mercs are HORRIBLE for rear passenger room when someone above 5'10" is sitting in the front. Add to that fact that alot of people, in NYC at least, lean further back that normal. Hell, my friend's '07 G35 cannot fit someone behind the drivers seat, but he is 6'4" and wide.

Another thing about interior space is that there is always the trade off with safety/ luxury. Because people want more luxury and safety things have to be added and there is only so much space you can fit all that stuff before you make the car physically bigger. In the luxury sport segment, this is a no no, since they don't want to mess with the balance of the car or else they lose their reputation of good handling cars.


RE: Not bad
By theoflow on 8/30/2007 2:28:44 PM , Rating: 2
This is probably the most important thing. I find it horrible that people in the US will not even think about driving a diesel.

HELLO!?!?!

You can get a Passat TDI and get 40 MPG. If those damn SUV's got 30 MPG do you know how much more efficient the country would be? And, blame this on our school system and our declining lack of math and science skills, but we need for people to understand the importance of torque in a vehicle, ESPECIALLY in a truck/SUV. There is a reason why engines in those big rigs are diesel as opposed to gasoline. It always seemed strange how there was always a knock on high revving Japanese engines because they had horsepower and didn't have any torque and now that diesel engines are coming into play, they have mileage and torque but no horsepower.


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 2:33:41 PM , Rating: 2
the smell of diesel makes me nauseous, i don't know if this happens to anyone else, but when i get in my friends TDI, i need to have the window open. The popping and pinging noise that a diesel engine makes annoys me too, but you are right with the added tork diesel engines give, theres no reason why every SUV is not diesel, except for the fact its more expensive than gasoline in most of the united states ;)


RE: Not bad
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 3:06:57 PM , Rating: 2
The reason that Americans don't buy diesel is that most of the vehicles offered are gasoline powered. Now you may say it's a chicken-and-egg thing, however, when it is time for me to buy a car, I am not willing to buy a model/style that I don't like in order to drive demand. I'm going to pick out what I like and need, and then see if there is a diesel option. Usually there isn't.


RE: Not bad
By SandmanWN on 8/30/2007 6:08:26 PM , Rating: 2
WRONG! The ONLY reason why Americans don't by diesels is due to recollection of the 80's Mercedes diesels that left clouds of noxious fumes, sounded horrific, and broke down. That left a deep impression on the minds of Americans and from that point on the only diesels that made it in the US were V8 and V10 engines for the trucking industry, which don't exactly fit in your typical sedan. They are no longer produced her for passenger vehicles in any numbers worth mentioning, so it has nothing to do with gasoline as there aren't any diesel vehicles to actually purchase.


RE: Not bad
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 8:35:07 PM , Rating: 2
That may certainly have left a negative impression, but it doesn't make my statement any less correct, which is that Americans don't typically have a choice when it comes to purchasing a diesel.

For example, we needed to buy a minivan for our growing family. Care to guess how many different makes/models of diesel minivans are available in America? Go ahead, guess. I'll give you a hint: it's a number less than one.

Car before that was my A4. I looked at Audi and BMW. No diesels there, either.

Yes, it's probably a chicken-and-egg situation, but it is what it is, and there's nothing that can be done to easily change that. It's not just simply a matter of Americans deciding they want diesels, the way the OP suggested. That idea is just naive.


RE: Not bad
By RogueSpear on 8/30/2007 3:11:41 PM , Rating: 2
I love my Prius and recently traded up from an 05 to an 07. I would love nothing more than to see Toyota upgrade the Prius with a diesel engine and I've been waiting for what seems like an eternity to see someone finally make a diesel electric hybrid that isn't a full size truck. Hopefully this development and Honda's recent attention to diesel will yield more announcements in the future.


RE: Not bad
By Spivonious on 8/30/2007 3:47:36 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe it's different in more heavily populated areas, but around here as soon as you get away from the highway there are no diesel fueling stations. It's the same reason why ethanol will never catch on.


RE: Not bad
By mdogs444 on 8/30/2007 3:56:22 PM , Rating: 2
Ethanol is crap. Sure it costs about 10 cents less / gallon - but you get like 20% less fuel economy. Not exactly a good trade off unless you are a rich environmentalist who cares more about the air than you do your own pocketbook.


RE: Not bad
By Omega215D on 8/31/2007 2:38:01 AM , Rating: 2
Not only that but increase in ethanol creates more Nitrogen oxide emissions while cutting down carbon.


RE: Not bad
By masher2 (blog) on 8/30/2007 3:56:41 PM , Rating: 3
> "I find it horrible that people in the US will not even think about driving a diesel."

Nearly all the diesels for sale in Europe don't pass the U.S's much stricter air-quality rules. Chrysler made a diesel Jeep Liberty for a while that sold much better than expected, but when the engine failed to meet tightening EPA regulations, vehicle production was cancelled.

Right now, I believe the E320 Bluetec is the only Diesel that meets US passenger-car standards.


RE: Not bad
By omnicronx on 8/30/2007 4:34:20 PM , Rating: 2
Many people do not realize how much less of a clean burn diesel is compared to gasoline, (and especially propane).
Its nice that it would save you a little money at the pump, (if its cheaper where you live) but if its worse for the environment whats the point? A little extra torque?


RE: Not bad
By TomZ on 8/30/2007 8:38:21 PM , Rating: 2
Diesel can be pretty clean with after treatment/selective catalyst reduction, but that adds cost, complexity, and in some systems additional maintenance requirements (e.g., refill urea). That's in addition to the slightly higher cost of the diesel engine itself. Just like with most things, there are trade-offs.


Wish in one hand...
By Polynikes on 8/30/2007 2:48:07 PM , Rating: 2
I wish Peugeot sold their cars over here.




RE: Wish in one hand...
By R Nilla on 8/30/2007 3:20:19 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. I'd love to own a Peugeot.


By lobadobadingdong on 8/30/2007 10:27:49 PM , Rating: 2
long as they didn't get them from Sony we'd be safe right? /rimshot




By natadiem on 8/31/2007 2:34:51 AM , Rating: 2
When I saw a comment about French product I was sure I would see funny comments from our American cousins.
This is really strange to see always the US against the “evil” French and Canada defending us.
I don’t know what problem the US exactly has with us…we are the only big Western Europe country you never had war with.
But when I see that you don’t even remember who helped you during your independence war…
I don’t think we can expect you to know about other countries when you don’t know about your own history.
Sometime I feel like you take Hollywood movies for history books (where you always look great while everybody in the world laugh)..
At the same time this is normal the US don’t like Canada.
They don’t want to remember that Canada invaded their country and burn the white house in no time so I understand their feelings…
US suffered from a blitzkrieg like us, I wonder why we are not closer…
Just for fun eh! I like Americans they are just as arrogant and stubborn as us.
Oh and by the way, Nissan is in the Renault group ;-). Have you checked your also tires recently?


nice
By shraz on 8/30/2007 2:36:46 PM , Rating: 2
Looks like the civic coupe front windshield.
Tall people should look at the Honda Fit, it has a lot of room space




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