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Verizon is known for its "network" ads, picturing hoards of people behind its commercial front man. Perhaps some of these people will now be joining the epic class action fight against the company.  (Source: Verizon Wireless)
Lawyers slam Verizon via class action lawsuit for its early termination fees

America's second largest wireless company, Verizon Wireless, has enjoyed great success over the last few years.  It accumulated over 65.7 million customers in the U.S. and aggressively acquired many small rural wireless providers in recent years.  It also sailed mostly unscathed through several contentious issues, such as its cooperation with government wiretapping/phone surveillance, recently exposed to the public eye.

Now the company faces a serious threat as a new suit is brewing that dwarfs all past class action suits.  The suit takes issue with Verizon's early termination fees (ETFs) and has a class of over 70 million people in the U.S.  The four-year-old case appeared before the American Arbitration Association in White Plains, NY -- a test to see if it could proceed.

The senior arbitrator/mediator for the Association, Eugene I. Farber, certified the group's class certification, clearing the way for the case to go to trial.

Farber, a former federal judge had this to say about the case in his 35-page statement, "I find the claimants have complied with the criteria for class certification.  My decision is also motivated by my conclusion that as a matter of equity and fairness, millions of class members are entitled to adjudication of the central common questions of fact or law in this arbitration related to whether the $175 early termination fee imposed by respondents Cellco Partnership d/b/a Verizon Wireless … is based upon an unenforceable liquidated damage clause."

Scott Bursor, counsel for the plaintiffs, hailed the decision as a "tremendous victory for Verizon Wireless subscribers."

He stated that the decision was a major landmark in legal history as it marked the biggest class ever to be certified in arbitration.  He added, "It is also the biggest class ever certified on a contested motion in forum, litigation, or arbitration of any kind."

Legal experts estimate the payout may be around a billion dollars.

Verizon would not comment on the case.  It is thought that the company may appeal the arbitrator's decision in federal appeals court, but the decision likely will not be able to be appealed.  Legal analysts say that only the final ruling could likely be challenged by appeal.

In 2006, Verizon took steps to soften the blow of early termination fees by implementing a proration plan for ETFs.  The plan takes money off the total fee for each month of your contract you serve, so you are not hit with a full fee for terminating late in your contract.  Competitors T-Mobile USA Inc., Sprint Nextel Corp. and AT&T Mobility also announced similar proration schemes.

Many cell phone companies have been hit by lawsuits over ETFs in past years, but never on this scale.  Since 2005, the national cellular association CTIA has petitioned the Federal Communications Commission to rule that ETFs are part of the wireless rate structure and are preempted by federal law.  They have poured large amounts of money into this lobbying to little avail, though the commission has expressed openness to holding hearings on this and a variety of other issues.  If such a measure was passed, it could grant cell phone carriers partial immunity from ETF class action suits.

For now, Verizon and the plaintiffs must prepare to square off in court sometime mid to late this year.



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I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Locutus465 on 1/30/2008 10:14:14 AM , Rating: 5
The sales people do make them *VERY* clear before you sign up. It'd be nice to see them go away so you can switch carriers whenever you choose (though you can expect to be hit with "you still owe us for your subsadized phone" fees). Perhaps this will end the practice of subsadizing cell phones and completely open up the cell phone market. As for whether this is a good or bad thing, well. Who knows, depends on how much those suckers end up costing.




RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Polynikes on 1/30/2008 10:16:56 AM , Rating: 5
So, a bunch of people either didn't listen to the salesperson or didn't make sure they understood their contract, and they decided to sue to get the money back that was unjustly taken from them? Wow. Who isn't aware that all cell providers have ETFs? I guess honoring contracts is overrated nowadays.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By elpresidente2075 on 1/30/2008 10:25:38 AM , Rating: 5
Perhaps the problem is the severity of the ETF rather than the fact that it exists...


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Cobra Commander on 1/30/2008 10:35:25 AM , Rating: 5
Exactly. I don't see how the concept of an ETF is anything but reasonable when the ETF itself is reasonable, however as said, the severity of these companies' ETF's are nothing more than a means to force people to continue using their service rather than allowing people to have freedom to choose. This of course is unreasonable. MANY cell phone users do not have the means of breaking such contracts.

I tried VZN and switched back to Cingular after <1 week of service because the LG Chocolate sounded like total garbage. On the phone they were gracious because they were giving a 15 day grace period but it took two whole cycles for their billing department to cancel a $400 bill they sent me... an ETF plus alleged services used. The bill was sent in response to my early termination, not my 'normal monthly bill' - it was a vain attempt to extort money out of me. Had it been a typical monthly bill and had it only taken one billing cycle I would have perceived it to be due to common accounting procedures.

All that's not to say VZN is the only one who has/is doing this... just my anecdote to share...


By eyebeeemmpawn on 1/30/2008 11:04:41 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
On the phone they were gracious because they were giving a 15 day grace period


Hold on a second, they didn't give you a 15-day grace period, its required by law. I have to assume that if it were up to verizon, the grace period would not exist


By BruceLeet on 1/30/2008 9:27:11 PM , Rating: 4
I'll buy Park Place and Boardwalk, ty


By Samus on 1/31/2008 1:17:17 AM , Rating: 3
So is this going to overflow to other carriers. I paid some crazy ETF's to Sprint when I had three lines with them and went down to one line. They charged me like $300 bucks to cancel two lines, but not my contract. I waited a year then finally canceled my service with them when the contract was up.

Sprint was an evil company, not just because of the above, but the mystery minutes and the surprise 'features' they'd add to your phones, which were not free.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By tjr508 on 1/30/08, Rating: 0
RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By crimson117 on 1/30/2008 11:18:44 AM , Rating: 4
They should remove the early termination fee, and replace it with a fee equal to the subsidy of your phone. If the MSRP of a phone was $300, but you only paid $100 for it, then if you canceled the contract early you'd either have to pay the $200 or return the phone.

If you provided your own phone, there'd be no termination fee (and like today, there'd be no good reason for you to sign a 2-year contract, either).

If Verizon wants to lock you in for 2 years, they should offer a discount on the monthly fee rather than a discount on the phone. World of Warcraft offers a bulk discount: it costs $15 monthly, but you can get it for $13 a month if you pay for 6 months in advance.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By tjr508 on 1/30/2008 12:21:34 PM , Rating: 2
I agree to the equal to the phone discount part which could be upwards of $300, but adding even more options like varaible fees and monthly discounts could make the system even more confusing and even more people would cry about it.

The fee coming after the service rather than before is purely physiological and has no net financial effect on an honest end user. It only gets them to think a little differently about switching carriers. It is no worse than any other type of loan in general (especially the 0 money down ones or xxx days same as cash).

Last time I checked, no major carriers forced anyone into a multi-year agreement just to get service. AT&T and T-mobile will happily hand over a sim card in exchange for a monthly fee.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Christopher1 on 1/30/2008 10:28:33 PM , Rating: 1
The problem is that many states have laws that say that fees that prevent someone from switching to another provider of a service are illegal.
A lot of people do not realize that, but I have a friend who researched this when he was going to bit hit with those ETF and found out that Maryland and quite a few other states have little known laws that makes these ETF's verboten by law, they just have not been enforcing it very well or at all because even the LAWMAKERS didn't know that the passed the law in question..... shows that the lawmakers aren't reading their lawbooks or the laws that they are passing!
You also have to realize that many of the early termination fees are more expensive than the value of the phone.... yes, I said it, they are MORE EXPENSIVE than the value of the phone.

People are getting suckered into thinking that those picture phones with the camera and the iPhones are really worth 200-600 dollars.... they are not. Their actual value, material wise, is usually less than 75 dollars.


By NullSubroutine on 1/31/2008 1:52:33 AM , Rating: 2
I used to live in Iowa and they had such a law. However 1-2 years later of lobbying from the companies and bye-bye that law.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By ATC on 1/30/2008 12:38:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
$175 is often quite less than the discount you get on your phone. How is that not fair?


I'm not sure how it is elsewhere but in Canada the ETF is typically much more than the discount received on the phone.

Here's an example; Virgin Mobile often sold the V3 RAZR for $150 with no contract. Some carriers (I won't single them out) sold the same phone for $150 on a three year contract and priced it at $350 without a contract. And, say you cancel your plan the last month on that three-year contract, you are hit with a $240 ETF.

So, carriers are either using a bloated over-the-top MSRP to fool customers and justify ETFs, or Virgin is giving away the phone for free and then some. And I have a tough time believing that there's a company giving away something for free without a catch.

Interestingly, most carriers have very similar pricing models, policies and ETFs which makes it look rather suspicious that, in this market at least, collusion is taking place.

Personally, I think Cell phone providers have become unethical (or maybe they've always been?) and have abused the monopoly long enough.


By Darkskypoet on 1/30/2008 7:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
Thats strange... I live in Canada, and it's a certain fee x months remaining on contract up to a given maximum amount. I am not sure what carriers you deal with, but your getting raped for no reason. Why would you bother to cancel on your last month even? Just turn off the phone, and pay the last month fee. Then your done.

With my carrier, I got my Treo 650 2 years go for $199, I get unlimited Data and a decent phone plan (unlimited text, voice mail, etc, etc) for 99$ a month. If I want to cancel, I have to pay $20 a month for every month left in my contract up to a max I think of $200 or so. Thus, if I am 6 months away from end of contract, I'd have to pay only $120.
Not some full fee, most cell providers around here are like that.

Except Telus, they don't have a maximum... only a min of $100... However, I hate Telus for many reasons, so I'll naught have to worry about that. But mainly the limit seems to be around $200.

Considering my phone was around $7-800 CAN when I got it... I can completely understand the early termination fee, you can't expect something for nothing. That being said, any phone company that messes up the handset with proprietary firmware should have to discount the handset's value (Telus). If you cannot use the phone on any other network anyway, it seems that you are already paying the price for a subsidized handset anyway.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By euczechguy on 1/31/08, Rating: -1
RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By aftlizard01 on 1/31/2008 9:32:12 AM , Rating: 2
First off the US is not a Democracy, we are a representative republic(there is a difference)(also who is this America that is saying we are the model of Democracy, I have never heard nor have I ever read this, anywhere).Secondly where does it say anywhere in the US Constitution that ETF's are bad?


By Durrr on 1/31/2008 10:57:04 AM , Rating: 3
"We, the founding fathers, say ETFs are the right hand of King George himself!"


By elpresidente2075 on 2/2/2008 4:02:24 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Who the f*ck could ever approve something like ETF?

quote:
the company forced ppl to stay and hire their services unwillingly, therefore can be called as censorship and diktatorship...


Your fallacy is twofold here:

First, something like this doesn't HAVE to be approved, as it is a private agreement between two private entities. This is one of the freedoms afforded to the people of the United States. We don't have to sign the contract if we feel it is not something we want. We have options in almost every market, and certainly in the large markets where most people reside.

Second, you seem to miss the difference between a corporation and the government. Corporations are not the government, as much as they'd like to have the power of it.

While our democracy is not perfect, it is safe to say that it has survived a very long time, almost exactly the same way as it was (at least in spirit) when it began. Insulting the US based on a misinterpretation of its constitution is just as pointless as it is wrong.

quote:
would never happen in EU, least of all where I live....

lol, "It could never happen to me!"


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By themadmilkman on 1/30/2008 10:25:53 AM , Rating: 5
The argument isn't whether or not the individuals KNEW about the ETF. The question is whether or not the ETF in the Verizon contract is enforceable or not. From the article:

"...related to whether the $175 early termination fee imposed by respondents Cellco Partnership d/b/a Verizon Wireless … is based upon an unenforceable liquidated damage clause. "


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By FITCamaro on 1/30/2008 10:34:00 AM , Rating: 1
Of course it is.

If nothing else, you signed the contract. You signed a contract stating that if you were to end the contract prematurely, you would pay the money. Plus they sell you the hardware at a loss to begin with.

Of course this is typical in America today where people no longer care about honoring their agreements. To people these days an agreement is only acceptable as long as it suits them. Then when it's not, they'll bitch, moan, and sue to get out of it saying they either didn't understand the terms, the terms weren't explained to them fully, etc.

Before I sign any agreement that is going to cost me money, I read it through and ask questions. If you don't do that and just sign away when they hand you the pen, that's your own stupidity that you alone are responsible for.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By themadmilkman on 1/30/2008 10:38:55 AM , Rating: 2
No offense, but you're clearly not familiar with contract law.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By FITCamaro on 1/30/08, Rating: 0
By tjr508 on 1/30/2008 10:53:25 AM , Rating: 5
Common sense is no longer relevant in America today, sir. Concede to the establishment or be exiled.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By NullSubroutine on 1/31/2008 1:55:06 AM , Rating: 1
Common sense isn't so common.


By superkdogg on 1/31/2008 10:07:15 AM , Rating: 2
It's also not that sensible.

Common sense is more or less an idiom meaning that it draws from the beliefs and ideas of others and you all feel likewise, so it's the 'common sense.'

As soon as there's an argument, common sense can't be the defense and there needs to be a resolution.

BTW, you can sign a contract saying you'll give somebody a million dollars the next time you step on a crack in the sidewalk. Signing a contract doesn't make it legal. If the terms are illegal, the contract (or pieces of it) can be illegal too.

Too many people want to make too many things black and white. That would be nice, schema modification can be hard, but grow up and allow for the fact that your 'common sense' can't always be right and that shades of gray pollute your antiseptic little world.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Locutus465 on 1/30/2008 10:59:57 AM , Rating: 4
I'm not that familiar with contract law my self... But to the best of my understanding the only thing that could invalidate this contract is if an EFT was actually illegal where you live. Where I live it is not illegal to the best of my knowlege, there for the EFT is entirly enforceable. If you do live in a state where it is illegal (another poster pointed this out) then yes, you could fight the phone company and win because the contract would then be invalid.

But for the vast majority of people involved in this suite (and I am automtaically involved as a verizon subscriber), this is not the case. The EFT is entirly legal and we knew what we were getting into.


By Spuke on 1/30/2008 4:38:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If you do live in a state where it is illegal (another poster pointed this out) then yes, you could fight the phone company and win because the contract would then be invalid.
Illegality is only one reason that a contract can be rendered unenforceable. There are others. The foundations of contract law are very old (older than the US) and have nothing to do with a perceived "loss of common sense in America". This is Business Law 101 stuff guys.


By eyebeeemmpawn on 1/30/2008 11:32:24 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Of course this is typical in America today where people no longer care about honoring their agreements. To people these days an agreement is only acceptable as long as it suits them. Then when it's not, they'll bitch, moan, and sue to get out of it saying they either didn't understand the terms, the terms weren't explained to them fully, etc.


Where have you been living the past 50 years?

If corporations don't honor their promises to the people, why should the people behave any differently? Of course I'm talking about unrelated things, pension plans, etc.

I agree with you though, the ETF were no secret, I'm a verizon subscriber. I would have expected to pay if I had ended my contract early. I'm just saying its not only the people that no longer care about honoring agreements, and then bitch and moan and sue to get out of pre-determined agreements.

I just wish Verizon would stop calling me once a month with a "terrific offer". They want me to resign, and I'll get a "cool, new picture phone for free!". Every month I have to explain to them that I'm perfectly happy being out of contract with my old treo. I guess they are allowed to cold -call their own customers on their cell phone, but it's annoying.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By RogueLegend on 1/30/08, Rating: 0
RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Legolias24 on 1/30/2008 2:52:53 PM , Rating: 2
Queastion: when you signed up to your ISP (before you moved) did you have the option of NOT taking the 2 year contract?

Comment: It is very tough to enforce "verbal contracts" as in the case of the ISP offering you a month free of service and a free modem. however, if it is in writing then you're definitely in a better position when it comes time to fight for something you are owed. A general rule of thumb I try to follow (and I'm sure others try to follow); if it's not in writing, it's not something either party is legally bound to honour.

Seriously though, best of luck in getting what is owed to you from the provider. :)

Cheers!


By RogueLegend on 1/30/2008 6:55:21 PM , Rating: 2
Here's the funny part of the whole ISP debacle- I signed up to the first ISP through a third party- part of the deal was a free modem, wireless access point, and reduced service rates for the first six months with no contract. I got three out of the four offers. And yes, I specifically asked if it meant that I had no contract with the ISP rather than a contract with the third party.

The ISP did not honor that part of the agreement, and claimed that by signing up with the service, regardless of what was offered, automatically meant a 2 year contract. The funny thing is, that same ISP kept sending me mailers that said advertised no contracts. After I got a hold of some real managers, the situation was resolved.

The ISP I'm currently dealing with (trying to bill me for items they were offering free) said that the 2 year contract under my state law was only enforceable if they offer service in the area that I was moving to.

But that's part of my point with ETFs- its unrealistic, especially with cell phones, to expect a customer to be bound to them and forced to pay. If the provider's service deteriorates over time (which has been known to happen), does the consumer have to be stuck paying for said service? Or worse yet, what if the consumer's life circumstance changes and they can no longer afford to pay for a cell phone- they're stuck paying for something they cannot afford?

And the worst part is, the provider isn't necessarily responsible for the service itself. Since most cell companies share towers, they can't be held liable for service outages. What's the point of paying for a nationwide plan (versus a local/state) plan if you're not guaranteed service nationwide. I'm perfectly happy with T-Mobile, but I ran into these issues with AT&T, and it was infuriating.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Locutus465 on 1/30/2008 10:52:47 AM , Rating: 3
It is entirly enforcable, why? Because you were informed of it before signing the contract! That is to say, you knew it what you were getting into and jumped anyway, in what way is the EFT not enforceable?


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Murst on 1/30/08, Rating: 0
RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Locutus465 on 1/30/2008 11:24:07 AM , Rating: 2
Except EFT's are perfectly legal, and considering most people opt to receive a free phone from Verizon how is this not fair? They've even started pro-rating the fee based on how long you stayed with them.

Additionally, you're not allowed to sign up for a cellphone until you're 18 years old for the reasons you just stated. So basically unless you happen to live in a state where cell phone EFT's are illegal, then all the points you just made become invaild. Other then yes, the sales people lieing to you would also be an issue. But this isn't about sales people lieing now is it?


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Murst on 1/30/2008 11:52:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Except EFT's are perfectly legal

And what do you base that statement on? Are all ETFs enforcable? Are all ETFs reasonable? If Verizon has a policy to charge ETFs to everyone without taking into condieration the reason for termination, I could certainly see this suit having merit. What if Verizon charged ETFs to customers even if the reason was due to lack of performance from Verizon? Would such actions be reasonable? Would they even be legal?

Obviously, there is something to this suit, as it wouldn't have gotten this far if the decision was trivial. Keep in mind that arbitration generally favors the corporation, so to see it get this far in arbitration should at least raise some eyebrows as to the merit of the case.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Locutus465 on 1/30/2008 1:52:12 PM , Rating: 2
On what do you base that it is illegal? And at what point do you say Verizon is so under-performing that they should just allow the customer to go with out paying an EFT?

Let's say someone decieds that Verizon is under performing because the office building they work in either has so much EMI or is so well sheilded that you just can't get cell signals through (I've been in some and heard of a few more). Legally does that customer have the right to walk away from their obligation with Verizon scott free because their cell phone doesn't work in their office building but works perfectly as soon as they leave that location?

Verizon's ETF is perfectly reasnoble and it is not outrageous for them to make it a corperate standard across the board, otherwise you're spending too much time tring to figure out who should pay an EFT, who shouldn't etc. You know what that means to you? Higher cell phone bills!!! Or perhaps Cell carriers could just stop the practice of subsadizing phones in general, which would leave us??? Well I don't know... I don't know what all these fancy cell phones cost... I'm guessing though that I couldn't have gotten my Samsung i730 for $100 with out some level of subsadation though.


By Murst on 1/30/2008 3:00:29 PM , Rating: 2
I never said it was illegal. I was merely pointing out that a contract may not be binding, since some people were suggesting that it has to be binding. This is for the courts to decide. However, assuming that the contract is valid simply because of some sentence in the contract is crazy, since there is much more to validity than the actual phrasing.

Honestly, I don't care what Verizon does with their contracts. I don't have Verizon. I use a local carrier that gives me unlimited minutes and free long distance for $55 per month. I pay for my own phone, and I don't have a contract. I could care less what you would be paying for your Samsung. I already pay for the phones I use.

However, jumping to conclusions that a consumer must be bound to the terms of the contract is crazy in my opinion. If Verizon did something wrong, or if the contract is not enforcable, then these people should not need to pay the ETF.

If Microsoft amended their terms of use for Windows to "consumer may not have a non-Microsoft operating system in the same building as their Windows operating system", I could care less. I would not consider that a binding contract, and would choose to ignore it and keep using Windows and Linux in the same house. Assuming that something like this would be binding is complete nonsense, whether it would be Microsoft, or in this case, Verizon.


By superkdogg on 1/31/2008 10:13:51 AM , Rating: 2
The most reasonable part of your argument is that maybe it would be advisable not to subsidize the phones.

I can't be the only one out there who gets a new phone just because it's free?? If they weren't "giving" phones away, I wouldn't be taking them and I'd stand pat with my old ones.

Two problems with that model: 1. Hardware manufacturers lose their collective behind. 2. I'm sure that my bill doesn't go down by the fact that I didn't take them up on the free phone. Instead I just basically refuse my benefit and they pocket the coin.

The whole argument here is that the ETF may be illegal. It is not a fee for terminating the contract when it becomes de facto the reason that people don't or can't change companies. Then it becomes a possibly illegal and anti-competitive clause in a contract. Why would you people presume you know more than the arbitrator who just ruled that the issue needs to see a courtroom floor?

You can state your opinions, just don't present them as facts when the real facts are 100% different than your opinion about whether or not it's legal.

When you don't like a law (or lack of a certain law) your opinion does not supercede it. That's just ridiculous.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By ArenaNinja on 1/30/2008 11:34:00 AM , Rating: 4
I don't believe most of us buy cell phones while on drugs, and I don't believe phone companies give a cell phone line to kids underage (except through parents).

However, to me signing a contract means you have come to an agreement, whether informed or not and you should be expected to uphold your end of the bargain.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Murst on 1/30/2008 11:57:43 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
However, to me signing a contract means you have come to an agreement, whether informed or not and you should be expected to uphold your end of the bargain.

Sorry, but it doesn't work like that. There have been plenty of cases where the contract terms were found not to be reasonable, specific, or even legal.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By smitty3268 on 1/30/2008 12:17:47 PM , Rating: 1
Exactly. If I signed a contract that said I was going to be your slave for the rest of my life, it would still be illegal for you to try and collect your end of the deal. Obviously, slavery != EFT's, but in legal terms and contract law it is exactly the same. (At least according to this ruling)


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Locutus465 on 1/30/2008 1:55:25 PM , Rating: 2
Except these contracts don't say anything of the sort... What they do say is since we're subsadizing your phone, you need to pay us what we lose on your hardware if you don't commit to a 1 or 2 year agreement. That's a far cry from making you their slave for life. If you don't like it, you could always buy unsubsadized phones on the open market, say off of ebay or even right at the VZW store (marked up $200 usually though).


By Spuke on 1/30/2008 4:46:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That's a far cry from making you their slave for life.
Illegality is only ONE aspect of what makes a contract unenforceable. Business Law 101.


By mcturkey on 1/30/2008 8:42:45 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What they do say is since we're subsadizing your phone, you need to pay us what we lose on your hardware if you don't commit to a 1 or 2 year agreement.


Sorry, where does it say that? This is an Early Termination Fee , and I'd be completely shocked if the contract was worded as having anything to do with subsidizing the phone.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By crimson117 on 1/30/2008 11:26:54 AM , Rating: 5
Wrong; even if you know about them, certain things in a contract may not be enforceable.
From http://www.answers.com/topic/liquidated-damages?ca... :
quote:
The use and enforcement of liquidated damages clauses have changed over the years. For example, cases such as Colonial at Lynnfield v. Sloan, 870 F.2d 761 (1st Cir. 1989), and Shapiro v. Grinspoon, 27 Mass. App. Ct. 596, 541 N. E. 2d 359, 1989), have granted courts permission to compare the amount set forth in the liquidated damages provision against the actual damages caused by a breach of contract. These "second-look" rulings have led several courts to honor the liquidated damages clauses only if they are equal to, or almost equal to, the actual damages.


"Damages" are usually expenses caused by the breach of contract - for example, the cost of an employee having to manually cancel your contract and update your records, etc. It could also be the portion of your remaining contract payments that would have gone to repaying the phone subsidy. It cannot be the "lost profit" incurred by Verizon because they lost a subscriber.

So at the very least, a class action will make sure these fees are based in damages reality, and are not simple punitive profit-recovery fees.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By ArenaNinja on 1/30/2008 11:31:10 AM , Rating: 2
In my case, I got a BlackBerry curve when they had just come out. The phone was worth, I believe $450 and I got it for less than $225 AFTER taxes (in California, no less!). My ETF, as stated in the contract, is $200. I agree that "lost profit" should not be included in liquidated damages, but I don't believe business themselves should regulate charging each of their customers a different ETF rate. I believe a standard rate for all users (regardless of plan, phone, and cue ethnicity, gender, etc..) is fair.

But we'll see what the courts say.


By fic2 on 1/30/2008 12:52:28 PM , Rating: 2
Why shouldn't it be different for each user based on what phone they purchased? Computers do all the calcs anyway. Why should my getting a contract with a phone that costs $100 without the subsidy be the same as yours since you got a $450 phone? Your subsidy is at least $225 where mine is $100 at the most.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By FITCamaro on 1/30/08, Rating: 0
RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By themadmilkman on 1/30/2008 10:31:51 AM , Rating: 5
Once again, the question is not whether or not the consumers were aware of the fees. The question being placed before the court is whether or not the ETF is based on enforceable contract terms. I know that bashing class-action lawsuits is a favorite recreation here on DT, but suing a company over what you believe is an unenforceable contract is NOT frivolous.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By FITCamaro on 1/30/08, Rating: 0
By themadmilkman on 1/30/2008 10:52:25 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Any contract you sign is a legal, binding agreement between two parties.


See, you're already starting on an incorrect basis. Any VALID contract you sign is a legal, binding agreement. There are plenty of ways to invalidate a contract. Confusion over the exact terms used, terms that can't be fulfilled for various reasons, misrepresentation regarding the contract by one party or the other, unconscionable terms and many other things.

In this particular case we're looking at the liquidated damages. Liquidated damages are "an amount of money agreed upon by both parties to a contract which one will pay to the other upon breaching (breaking or backing out of) the agreement or if a lawsuit arises due to the breach. Sometimes the liquidated damages are the amount of a deposit or a down payment, or are based on a formula (such as 10% of the contract amount). The non-defaulting party may obtain a judgment for the amount of liquidated damages, often based on a stipulation (clear statement) contained in the contract, unless the party who has breached the contract can make a strong showing that the amount of liquidated damages was so "unconscionable" (far too high under the circumstances) that it appears there was fraud, misunderstanding or basic unfairness." I would imagine that the essence of the argument, having not looked at the actual filings, is that the terms were unconscionable since they were not prorated, and Verizon was charging the same fee to individuals with only 1 month left on their contract that they were to individuals with 12 months remaining.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By ArenaNinja on 1/30/2008 11:27:36 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Any contract you sign is a legal, binding agreement between two parties. Both are expected to uphold their end of the bargain according to the terms set forth in that agreement. In my mind, that makes any of the terms in the contract enforceable. Now yes if it was "You must surrender your first born to us if you cancel your contract early." that can be deemed unenforceable. But a monetary penalty for doing so, no, thats enforceable. Regardless of whether Verizon suffers an actual loss or not by you ending your contract early, you are still obligated to uphold the terms of your contract.
FIT: I've agreed with most of what you've posted but here you're contradicting yourself.

IF you sign a contract saying you must surrender your first born then you MUST surrender your first born. You're basing your opinion on morality, which is that you should not trade kids for services. But morality doesn't come in to contracts unless there are laws upholding them. In this case, slavery laws would prohibit cell phone companies from even getting it to a contract.

As for this lawsuit, I don't believe it's frivolous. I'm no fan of ETFs and I hate that here in Los Angeles there has not been a good pay-as-you-go option up until now that metroPCS seems to be around (before you would never see them here). For that same reason I avoided cell phone contracts like it was the plague and finally went with t-mob for a 2 year contract.

As Camaro said, you sign it, you bought it. However, I believe this ruling (should it favor the plaintiffs) should NOT give people ANY money back. It should either: regulate the ETFs going forward(I would be fine with prorating them), eliminate them from contracts going forward (which WILL drive up month-to-month costs).


By Locutus465 on 1/30/2008 2:04:44 PM , Rating: 2
The problem is that this is a class action lawsuite, the whole point is to get money out of Verizon. I don't think a change in regulation or laws nessesarly need to result from this, the Fed could choose to continue not caring about this.


By rcc on 1/30/2008 5:25:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but suing a company over what you believe is an unenforceable contract is NOT frivolous


I can understand a class action (or non class action) lawsuit over a contract where you feel that the carrier is not performing in accordance with the contract. However, if you sign a contract to get something and YOU think it's not enforceable and plan to challenge it, in my mind that's fraud. You are agreeing with something you have no intention of complying with. I know all the old saws about it's just a faceless corporation, evil personified, but even if true that doesn't excuse the signer from conspiracy to enter into a contract they have no intention of honoring.

It all fits into one of the major problems of today's society. Failure of the individual to take responsibility for themselves. I can't imagine talking to anyone , even a frikkin' used car salesman, with the intent to not honor my word, or a contract.

Honor your word, when it comes right down to it it is all you really have. The other guy has to look out for his own, but don't compromise your honor for anyone else. I realize it's an obsolete concept, but the world would be a happier place if more people still subcribed.

And yes, I'm old, I know it.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By blckgrffn on 1/30/2008 10:36:27 AM , Rating: 2
Never mind that in some states, like Iowa, it's illegal to charge a termination fee for utilities (which cell phones are regarded as, at least in that state) yet they attempt to collect them anyway.

They (most cell phone carriers) send harassing letters and it seems many people just pay the bill when they see the words "collection agency".

I guess abiding by the law is overrated nowadays.


By Locutus465 on 1/30/2008 2:06:05 PM , Rating: 2
In most states there are no such laws, and by definition this law suite covers us all. Under what circomstances should I be allowed to just walk away from Verizon with out paying an EFT since there are no laws to protect me from them?


By NullSubroutine on 1/31/2008 2:04:43 AM , Rating: 2
They removed that law with lobbying from these companies in Iowa. I believe that was in 2005 or 2006.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By loki5667 on 1/30/2008 2:10:28 PM , Rating: 3
Wow do some of you work for cell phone companies?

So I buy a phone and sign up for service that is advertised for fewest dropped calls, great signal strength, etc. Then once I am under contract I start having issues. What does Verizon tell me? They pretty much tell you tough luck, if you don't like the service pay the ETF and leave. You people think that is fair?

Or how about buying a new cell phone. You have problems with it and have it replaced. Same phone, same problems. They won't always give you a brand new phone and won't let you get a more expensive model (even if you are willing to pay the difference). Though they will offer a comparable model. Most of the time they don't even share the same features as your original purchase. So now you are stuck with a crappy phone and customer service won't help or doesn't know what to do. What are your options? Shell out money for a new phone and be forced to re-up your contract in the process OR pay the ETF and take your business elsewhere. Either way you are getting screwed.

If the cell phone companies aren't living up to their end of the deal, why should consumers worry about honoring things on theirs?


By rcc on 1/30/2008 5:57:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Then once I am under contract I start having issues. What does Verizon tell me? They pretty much tell you tough luck, if you don't like the service pay the ETF and leave. You people think that is fair?


No, and I haven't seen anyone even implying that. If you have a service issue, or a phone issue, and cannot get it corrected then yes, you are entitled to a release from the contract. You may have to sue them to get it, but that's totally different from signing up to a contract knowing that it has a termination fee and then trying to get out of it for insufficient or no, cause.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By NullSubroutine on 1/31/2008 2:23:21 AM , Rating: 1
Want to know something funny about the Blackjack and AT&T? One, the Blackjack has a known problem by its manufacturer, when an AT&T customer calls in cuz they hear is a recall on the Blackjack customer service tells them there is no such recall.

Now, after several months of denying there is a recall they are finally admitting there is a recall on the phone. Funny thing is when you return your phone you get another (refurbished) Blackjack WITHOUT the update on the phone making it work incorrectly. So then the people call in again and say 'the phone is still not working'.

It is funny seeing how so many companies do whatever they can to avoid doing anything that would fall under 'doing good business practices to keep customers'.

Typically in call centers you will have a customer who asks for a 'supervisor' or 'manager' what they get is the person sitting next to them that repeat the companies rules. The representives have no power what so ever to help the person if they want to.

If the rep does do something to help the person it is routinely against policy as it costs 'money' and the worker is subject to penatly or loss of job.

The only department allowed to offer anything is the 'saves' department where people go when they want to cancel. They themselves are offerred a variety of things to keep their service with the company, however there is a tiered setup.

If you an average person with the regular type of plan you are offered jack-shit because the lowest plan the companies lose the most money on. If you are a business customer with multiple lines you are offered pretty much everything short of a gold bar to keep you as their customer.

Unless you are paying out the rear end for a high end line ($200+/month) the company will do anything to avoid assisting you or trying to keep you as their customer. They are happy if you cancel because they can then collect the early termination fee while no longer having to give you service.

The only thing they are out is a marked-up cell phone the company buys from cell phone manufactures far below MRSP and wholsesale costs.

Why don't they care? Because they know there are millions of people in the market and each company acts the same way. When someone isnt happy with AT&T they go to Version, if they dont like T-Mobile they switch to Sprint, if they dont like Sprint they switch to AT&T and so on. There are always new customers that leave their previous service because they aren't happy with the business they are currently with.

They also do not care because the most widely purchased contracts make them the least amount of money, sometimes they actually lose money on the low end contracts and are happy if you quit first and just give them an ETF.


By NullSubroutine on 1/31/2008 2:26:23 AM , Rating: 2
I belive there is a problem with the rating system, my thing started at 1 because by the time I hit post and scrolled down to my post it was already at 1....


By eye smite on 1/30/2008 2:22:24 PM , Rating: 3
Paying a $30-50 ETF is I think acceptable, not that I think ETF's should even exist, but $175 ETF is contemptable, laughable, and retarded. More greed at work, yay.


By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 1/31/2008 8:07:12 AM , Rating: 2
The problem is that ALL cell providers have ETF's. You can't get a cell phone UNLESS you agree to an ETF. This is not an arm's length bargaining position. Why can't you get the service as long as you need or want it, and then walk away? It is just a marketing ploy to lock people into their plan, not for any damages the company may actually experience from terminating your service. That is absurd.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By retrospooty on 1/30/2008 10:34:43 AM , Rating: 1
"The sales people do make them *VERY* clear before you sign up."

True... and isn't $175 a pretty standard early termination fee? It is for US carriers. I know I dumped crappy ATT (in favor of Verizon) 3 years ago and got charged $175


By zombiexl on 1/30/2008 10:43:49 AM , Rating: 2
I dumped sprint because I moved and coverage sucked. They fought me every step of the way to get ETF's on my lines that were rendered useless becuase of their crappy coverage. I called them a number of times over 3 months and coul get nothing other than you should have coverage based on our maps. Of course their maps put my house about 6 miles SW of where it actually is.

Finally I found an error in my contract date that essentially rendered the contract on 2 of my 3 lines invalid. I ended up paying $200 to get out of a 3 phone contract.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By omnicronx on 1/30/2008 10:44:25 AM , Rating: 3
You think $175 is a ripoff? Bell Canada recently increased their cancellation rates to a max of $400. Not only that but the 400 is a max, the rate is 20$ per month in your contract not paid, meaning 2 years is also $400. It's not until 1 1/2 left on a contract that the buyout will cost less than 400.

$175's is essentially the security deposit for your phone, without it cell phone companies are going to have to change their business model, and this will be the end of free phones. (could be a good thing). Not that i like paying these fee's but if you want a free phone, you have to expect to pay to cancel your contract.


By retrospooty on 1/30/2008 11:03:43 AM , Rating: 1
I dont think its a ripoff, I was just pointing out it is standard, meaning, if this is against Verizon, it should also be against Sprint, ATT, and others as well.

If you really want to break it down, in most cases, that contract you sign is to get you a phone today at a massive discount, often free. The catch is you have to agree to use them for 2 years. The obvious alternative is to buy your own phone and pay as you go. If you dont like a companies offering, dont sign it.


By tmouse on 1/30/2008 11:36:36 AM , Rating: 2
I do not know if using a super rip-off as an example to say being ripped off for less is a good counter. I actually do not have a view if it is a rip-off or not since I have never been affected by it. I do not know about Verizon, but the services I have had contained full retail cost reimbursement (and you know they did not pay that) in addition to the ETF cost in the contract, maybe Verizon’s different but I doubt it. It would not be unreasonable for a company to recover costs like phones, so I doubt the arbitrator would miss that. BTW the people in this class will probably get what between $7-10 after the legal costs (based on a 1/4 to 1/2 recovery on a billion dollars distributed amongst 70 million). I’ve gotten about a dozen 0.25 to $1 settlements over the last few years for ram, toasters, sanders ect. if I had the receipts (which I did not, besides it would have cost a good portion of the settlement just to provide the evidence I deserved it). I would guess most of the class is not even aware they are members. They will not be just the contract breakers getting back their costs like people seem to think. I do not know do you think Verison has had 70 million people in the US drop their service early? I think every Verizon customer will be getting a check for pennies for being "subjected" to this clause and it will have to be changed in the future (if they lose of course). This is how MOST class actions work.


By Tsuwamono on 1/30/2008 11:07:03 AM , Rating: 3
I had to pay 20$ per month for every month left in my contract. Im on a 4 year contract... i would kill for a 175 cancelation fee lol


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Suomynona on 1/30/2008 11:09:50 AM , Rating: 2
It doesn't really matter if the salespeople explicitly tell you about the ETF when it's an industry-wide practice. When a Verizon rep tells you about it, it's not like you can go somewhere else and get a better deal, especially when one-year contracts are becoming impossible to find now.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By Locutus465 on 1/30/2008 11:11:56 AM , Rating: 2
It does matter a great deal, you can't assume that everyone just knows. The fact of the matter is, not everyone deals with cellphones and cellphone contracts. I know a great many people who have never had one, when I used to work at radio shack I sold my friends parents their first cell phone (they were already approching their 60's).


By Suomynona on 1/30/2008 12:14:24 PM , Rating: 2
It matters in the sense of them knowing their "obligations," but not in the sense that they can then shop around. It doesn't affect the fairness, or lack thereof, of ETFs.


By soxfan on 1/30/2008 12:12:27 PM , Rating: 2
The argument is that the ETF is a "liquidated damages clause." Under contract law, such clauses are rarely, if ever, enforceable, particulalry when one party to the contract is legally unsophisticated. The suit is based on the knowing enforcement of an invalid contract clause. It does not matter too much whether both parties understood the contract or not, when you put it in that context.


RE: I've never been a fan of ETF's but...
By mattclary on 1/30/2008 1:08:40 PM , Rating: 2
"The sales people do make them *VERY* clear before you sign up"

Yes they do. Every cell company does.

So, what that means is, you have NO CHOICE but to agree with the ETF. They all have ETFs, so you have no choice but to agree. Well, unless you don't want a cell phone.


By Locutus465 on 1/30/2008 2:09:37 PM , Rating: 2
You could go with a Pay as you go service, or you could go with a local carrier that offers monthly service with no contract and no ETF. There are options out there, should you choose to explore them.


By diablofish on 1/30/2008 1:13:04 PM , Rating: 2
I also think part of the contract reads something like "provide working service". If I can't use my phone when and where the "sales people" told me, I should be able to get out of my contract AND the ETF since they didn't provide what they were contractually obligated to do. And yes, a verbal contract (aka, the salesperson's verbal commitments) are a part of that valid contract.

Ever try to get out of an ETF even when your service is garbage? It's easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle.


Wow...
By psypher on 1/30/2008 10:23:45 AM , Rating: 2
I would love to be a partner in the law firm representing the Class... This case is probably worth half a billion dollars to them. That is ridiculous.




RE: Wow...
By jskirwin on 1/30/2008 10:46:55 AM , Rating: 2
Me too.
People take fight to Verizon? How about Lawyers Drive up Costs to Verizon Subscribers

Of which I'm one - and I'm paying enough for service already thank you...


RE: Wow...
By crimson117 on 1/30/2008 11:34:17 AM , Rating: 2
They won't get 50% of the payout. They'll get several million dollars, but that has to pay for many lawyers and expert witnesses and clerks and investigators and everything over years and years. It adds up.

All you see is "class action concluded, lawyers got $50,000,000" but you fail to recognize all the work and risk that went into them pursuing the class action in the first place.


RE: Wow...
By jskirwin on 1/30/2008 4:24:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
but you fail to recognize all the work and risk that went into them pursuing the class action in the first place.


Work? Perhaps, but Risk ? There isn't any - and that's the problem.

If the class action fails, the firm is out the cost of its own lawyers plus the expert testimony, filing fees, etc - the work spent filing and pursuing a suit. They don't risk anything more.

Perhaps they should be forced to risk something - say a quarter of the damages they are suing for. If they sure for a billion, put them on the line for $250 million if they lose.

That would discourage chasing deep pockets at the expense of shareholders and ultimately, consumers.


RE: Wow...
By MrBlastman on 1/31/2008 10:04:43 AM , Rating: 1
You do know that there are law firms that specialize in nothing but class action lawsuits, right?

There are firms out there that might employ 20 - 50+ lawyers, who do nothing but sue companies day and night. That is all they do. Ever. While you might think they have huge expenses, if you consider some of the larger of these firms have 30 - 50 (yes thirty to fifty) cases pending AT ONE TIME, if they lose one case, they have others to help make up the difference.

It is as if they are throwing darts at a dart board hoping to see if one hits. They have people assigned to come up with class action suits and then they "fish" for months to see if they can get some clout behind it before filing.

Lawsuits are a fine thing for the right purpose, but we've taken them way too far in our country. Nowadays it is sue first, ask questions later. Sad but true most of the time.

As far as Verizon is concerned... people knew what they were getting in to. They were most likely given a phone for free; what do they expect? To keep the darned thing for free if they cancel the contract?

If this lawsuit perhaps covered some of the shadier practices such as calling on false pretenses of "Hey, because you're a loyal Verizon customer, we want to give you 100 free minutes a month!" Thereby luring thousands of people to agree to this, while secretly extending or renewing their contracts (don't say this doesn't happen, I know first hand that it does - happened to someone the other day. Not ONCE did they mention renew contract. Only reason they were caught was the lady slipped up and said: Is it ok for us to go ahead and process your order? Most ppl wouldn't catch that, this guy did).

If it were additionally for the reason mentioned above, then perhaps this suit might be something worthy.


How do I join this?
By dgingeri on 1/30/2008 2:51:35 PM , Rating: 2
When I moved from Verizon to AT&T, Verizon charged me the $175 ETF, even though my contract was over. They were claiming my contract was supposed to go on for another 4 months. I signed up with them in August 2005 and kept them until August 31st 2007. They claimed my 2 year contract didn't end until October 2007 and charged me the ETF. I sent them all kinds of proof that my contract was signed in October, but they still claimed that I owed them the $175, plus late fees that they had stacked on for a total of $216 at that point.

I want them crucified for that. Sign me up for this lawsuit.




RE: How do I join this?
By GregGreen on 1/30/2008 7:48:09 PM , Rating: 2
Your contract is for 24 months, not 22. They only let you renew with the discount at 22 months, not actually leave the contract...


RE: How do I join this?
By dgingeri on 1/31/2008 8:34:28 AM , Rating: 2
Where do you get 22 months? I signed my contract with them in mid August 2005. I then waited until the end of August 2007 to switch. That's over 2 years. Yet, they claimed my contract didn't end until October 2007 and charged me an extra $175.


By dryloch on 1/30/2008 10:43:28 AM , Rating: 2
This is a completely reasonable charge. People want a phone for free or cheap and then want to be able to cancel and leave the carrier hanging. The 175 probably strictly goes for the cost of buying down the phone if someone cancels.