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Print 33 comment(s) - last by mcnabney.. on Aug 17 at 9:13 PM

Palm's hot Pre smart phone comes preloaded with the new webOS -- and tracks your position every day.  (Source: Sprint)
Many users have expressed concerned about the phone's transmissions home

Its always a bit embarrassing when your customers discover that you've been recording information about them that they weren't aware of.  That's exactly what happened to Apple's smart phone rival Palm, over the discovery that the phone company's Palm Pre is constantly monitoring its users.

Pre developer Joey Hess was digging around in the internals of webOS, the operating system powering the phone, when he made the discovery.  The phone apparently transmits once a day to Palm information on the Pre user's location, which application they're using, the app crash logs, and which apps the user has installed.

In response to the growing reports on the topic, Palm has gone on the offensive saying that the user monitoring is covered legally under the privacy policy and is necessary to improve the phone.

Writes Palm, "Our privacy policy is like many policies in the industry and includes very detailed language about potential scenarios in which we might use a customer's information, all toward a goal of offering a great user experience. For instance, when location-based services are used, we collect their information to give them relevant local results in Google Maps. We appreciate the trust that users give us with their information, and have no intention to violate that trust."

The different types of data collection Palm is carrying out fall under different levels of acceptance.  In the case of application crash monitoring, this is quite typically and commonly performed in Windows, Apple's OS X, and even some Linux operating systems.  Even some browsers like Firefox offer similar features. 

Monitoring user's location is also somewhat commonplace among telecoms (and Google, reportedly), though its a much more hushed practice.  The monitoring can be used to improve network quality or offer more pertinent online information.

It is unknown whether Apple collects location information from its iPhone users, but many apps for the iPhone admittedly do.  In fact location-aware apps are becoming a hot new trend.  Some apps even offer unusual features like introductions to strangers at your current location when you're at places like the bar.

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I wouldn't mind it...
By quiksilvr on 8/15/2009 7:45:00 PM , Rating: 3
If it remained anonymous, which considering that they're defending it with that old "I'm doing it for you!" excuse, I doubt this is the case.




RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By dagamer34 on 8/15/2009 8:12:15 PM , Rating: 2
They'd have to defend themselves regardless.


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By Cront on 8/15/2009 9:52:06 PM , Rating: 2
If they had been up front about it maybe there wouldn't be such alarm or cause for them to defend themselves but waiting until someone pulls it out of your OS does not build customer confidence.


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By Hakuryu on 8/15/2009 10:51:37 PM , Rating: 2
I don't see any 'alarm' going off because of this.

In today's GPS world you can't simply hide and use your phone... they are going to know where you are. I guess the question is whether they let you know they are receiving this information, or simply don't tell you... don't think for a minute any providers that haven't been 'caught' at this don't get information on where their customers are (be prepared for a second falling off the turnip truck if you think otherwise).

I care about being anonymous and think there is a limit to what ISP's, phone providers, and the like can gather about my online habits... but where I am at is just not one of them. Am I wrong to assume that my location is about non-sensitive as it gets?


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By TA152H on 8/15/2009 11:27:16 PM , Rating: 5
You're wrong if you go to some of the places I go :( .


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By Hare on 8/16/2009 3:16:28 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
In today's GPS world you can't simply hide and use your phone...


Yes you can because GPS does not require uplink connections. It simply looks for satellites and calculates your position without transmitting anything to anyone.


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By michaelklachko on 8/17/2009 12:29:20 AM , Rating: 2
they can track you even if your phone does not have GPS.
just ask Mitnick about that, lol


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By Fritzr on 8/17/2009 3:06:36 PM , Rating: 2
Nothing extra is needed to locate a cellphone that is in range of the network. If you are connected to the network, then the network knows your location. If the phone is not in use, then you simply send out a signal to the phone and use the reply. You do want to receive incoming calls & texts, right?

Either way you note the cell towers that are receiving the signal & the signal strength at each location. If directional information is available from the tower then the triangulation becomes much easier.

It is up to the service provider as to whether or not they install the software needed to implement user tracking. Usually it is done. Then the cell company advertises that a 911 call will bring help to you instead of your billing address. Sometimes it is a good thing to have your phone tracked :)

Of course the police can go to the cellphone company with a court order and ask for this info along with an enforcable request that no one tell the customer that someone is interested in their movements.

Hopefully the people requesting this info are not fishing hoping to find criminals by checking large numbers of customers or other uses that the cellphone users might find objectionable. Again we have the actual use of National Security Letters by the FBI to reassure us that the police will never misuse their powers :P


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By mcnabney on 8/17/2009 9:01:01 PM , Rating: 2
The wireless service providers can get a 'general' idea of where you are based upon the towers being utilized. Dialing 911 automatically transmits your location.

But that is different. Carriers don't do anything with usage data besides create models of where to build new infrastructure. What Palm is doing is essentially stealing that private information and is going to sell it to advertisers and package the info and sell your name with lists of where you go, what stores you enter, and what applications you download. And there is no 'opting out'.

My answer to this - not buying a Pre when it comes to Verizon next year.


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By MonkeyPaw on 8/16/2009 9:35:24 AM , Rating: 2
You can be tracked with your phone already. A few years ago, a girl was abducted from a mall and they managed to narrow down the search by using her cell phone's last known position. I don't doubt that numerous other crimes were solved by using cell towers to track position. As it is, phones have never been very private, since companies track your phone records, and those records can be retrieved with a warrant. Basically, if you're paranoid about privacy and/or hoping to cover up illegal activities, you probably shouldn't be using phones to enable yourself.


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By majBUZZ on 8/15/2009 11:57:06 PM , Rating: 4
Or if you had the option to turn it off. taking away users options is kinda like saying as Bill Hicks said

" You are free to do as we tell you "


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By Murst on 8/17/2009 12:27:28 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Or if you had the option to turn it off

You do have the option to turn it off...


RE: I wouldn't mind it...
By vapore0n on 8/17/2009 7:58:00 AM , Rating: 3
Might as well not buy it

Whole point is that the phone transmit without user consent and and does not have the option to turn this feature off


I doesn't matter
By Flunk on 8/16/2009 1:18:11 AM , Rating: 5
You mobile provider can already locate you 100% of the time. Palm knowing where you are once a day is nothing compared to the ability to locate you 100% of the time your phone is active.

This is nothing in comparison to the power providers already have.




RE: I doesn't matter
By JoshuaBuss on 8/16/2009 1:19:28 PM , Rating: 3
agreed. this is news? seriously? all phones are required by law to be able to provide the location for emergency services.


RE: I doesn't matter
By michaelklachko on 8/17/2009 12:26:27 AM , Rating: 3
they can locate you even if your phone does not have GPS.


RE: I doesn't matter
By Tamale on 8/17/2009 7:54:47 AM , Rating: 2
exactly..


RE: I doesn't matter
By mcnabney on 8/17/2009 9:04:40 PM , Rating: 2
But that data is only released when the police requests it or they are subpoenaed. It isn't something that the carriers sell. Palm is going to be selling all this info, with your name and address attached.


Don't...
By SavagePotato on 8/15/2009 11:30:49 PM , Rating: 5
Take your palm pre with you to that Bangkok kiddie porn whorehouse you are visiting on the company credit card.




RE: Don't...
By diliff on 8/16/2009 5:48:32 AM , Rating: 5
Well you wouldn't, would you? Roaming charges are extortionate!


Clueless, Much?
By GeorgeH on 8/15/2009 8:14:24 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
..user monitoring is covered legally under the privacy policy...

What a relief; Palm's legal exposure really had me worried there for a second. Everything is totally fine now.




ha
By rudy on 8/15/2009 9:44:17 PM , Rating: 2
So now we know about the where they get the stats for the now network.




RE: ha
By mcnabney on 8/17/2009 9:10:18 PM , Rating: 2
It isn't the Now Network anymore. Sprint sold their network to SonyEricsson.


opt out
By melgross on 8/16/2009 12:28:26 AM , Rating: 2
As far as I know, all the apps on my iPhone that do post location and other data, ask me first. I get a lot of "Is it ok to use your Location?" questions, and questions about sharing data from apps, and the phone itself, for Apple's own apps.

I don't mind if you can opt out from this.

I can opt out from it in OS X, and I imagine from Windows as well.

I don't know why a phone should be given different rules to work by.




RE: opt out
By Fritzr on 8/17/2009 3:22:14 PM , Rating: 2
The feature in Windows that is referred to is Error Reporting. You do have the option of opting out. In fact by default it requires Opt-in. When a program generates a reportable error a dialog box pops up asking if you wish to send the error report to Microsoft. You can select "Always Report" and "Never Report" if you don't want to see this popup.

Can't remember if the popup offers this or if it is a registry edit, but Microsoft did not make it an automatic covert report that you have to first discover and then turn off in order to opt out.

RealPlayer got some bad press a few years ago. They had a covert phonehome in their product. When it was made public that it was reporting user stats, Real announced that future versions would not do so. Later it was discovered that Real had NOT removed the phonehome feature from RealPlayer as they had promised and that caused another round of bad publicity for Real. They have changed the name of RealPlayer a few times since then...not sure if they ever gave up on the covert data collection. Not a problem here as I do not use anything produced by Real since the only way to opt-in or out of their data gathering is to use or not use their software. Not objecting to the data gathering per se, my objection is to the covert collection of data and the public denial of doing so.


The real question is
By puckalicious on 8/16/2009 7:31:37 AM , Rating: 1
Will Palm or the service provider roll over and illegally provide a user's data to the government without a court order? It already happened with the last administration.




RE: The real question is
By mcnabney on 8/17/2009 9:13:38 PM , Rating: 2
Provide it to the government?

They will sell it to anyone who can make out a check. Maybe they will automate it so that your spouse can pay up-front with a credit card and get daily emails listing where you went, who you called, what websites you visited, what games you played, or practically anything else.


The Beauty of Dystopiates
By scrapsma54 on 8/16/2009 6:47:43 PM , Rating: 2
Tracking of any kind, anonymous or not wont seem detrimental. However I advise you guys watch a Scanner Darkly and minority report before you let this userdatatrackingdatagarbage gets to your head. Its of no matter who is watching, it is a matter of whats being offered, be it your security, or your demise. Its like asking a cow to pay to eat the grass which was laced with nicotine and rat poison then watching where he goes to see what other garbage they can expose him too.




By queuetrip on 8/17/2009 12:20:50 PM , Rating: 2
if you design a phone to be fool-proof only fools will use it... (therefore, palm pre is phoning home with info about the fools using the palm pre.

I am laughing that the almighty iphone killer phones home!!,

Everybody seems to have a reason for hating the iphone but, at least the iphone phones home using itunes instead. (or does apple even care? or did it?)
why should apple care, they hire genius people to test their phone!.
Whereas palm does not care that that the phone works as expected... (or in short, moron's work on the palm pre)




I think I get it
By Nihility on 8/16/2009 5:37:49 AM , Rating: 1
Facts:
1. Companies will pay handsomely for legal "partnerships" with other companies that collect user's private data.
2. Palm is bleeding money all over the place and they're desperate.

1+2= Palm is willing to screw over their customers to make money.

Is that about right? I'm going to draw a rose on my palm device and place it on the company's grave.




By callmeroy on 8/17/2009 8:53:50 AM , Rating: 1
It amazes me how corporations just never get it. The American population is largely naive, that's a given, however - some folks and I dare say a fair amount aren't so naive but we are understanding and would like the choice to decide for ourselves.

So Mr. CEO , when your company puts out a product that has the potential to be big brother this is how we know your words of "we are just trying to better the product" are BS or not:

--- You are full of it if there is no prior public knowledge made early on of what the product does or may record or transmit back "home".

--- You are full of it if there is no EASY and CLEARLY labeled functionality to disable any big brother reporting.

^^ that stuff above ^^ is what pisses off your customers and the public at large...get the hint already.

If you want us to buy the "For the sake of helping to improve the product" line....do this...

- Be upfront and honest from the start (IE the same time the product is announced) about any big brother reporting/recording for the sake of "product improvement"

- In that same announcement, demonstrate clearly and easily how the customer can disable any big brother reporting feature whatsoever -- at will. This has to be a process that is as simple and easy to understand as how you turn the device on and off.

Do that -- THEN you'll find folks much MUCH more accepting of the "feature" and chances are your company will gain a bit of customer respect (hint: this translates into $$$ with sales reccommendations and loyalty) in the process.




Off, isn't off
By Autisticgramma on 8/17/2009 12:39:07 PM , Rating: 1
Off isn't actually off, if your phone has a power source its a potential bug: video, voice, and location data all for the taking. This is why I will never own an 1Ph0ne, non removeable battery might as well be big brother sticking his antenna out my ass every 10 minutes.

Oh yea and turn off bluetooth. You can walk by the wrong laptop and get hacked. I mean in addition to looking like you wish you had back up dancers, to answer the phone when your mother calls.




Other things.
By drycrust on 8/16/09, Rating: 0
"Mac OS X is like living in a farmhouse in the country with no locks, and Windows is living in a house with bars on the windows in the bad part of town." -- Charlie Miller











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