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  (Source: AP)
Anonymous having internal conflict over hack

You would imagine in this advanced era of nationalist hackers and skilled internet conmen that the candidates for president and vice president would have beefed up security on their email accounts, and perhaps would not use the standard version of online services.  That logic proved incorrect with the recent revelation that Republican vice presidential candidate Sarah Palin's email was hacked by a protest group.

The group 'anonymous', famous for its successful protests against scientology, and attacks on scientology's online presence due to its censorship tactics, claimed responsibility for this hack.  However, Gov. Palin's email account shows signs of in-fighting amongst the group.

Governor Palin had been using two yahoo accounts -- gov.palin@yahoo.com and her unrelated gov.sarah@yahoo.com -- both of which have since been deleted.  Hackers gained access to the first account on Tuesday, September 16.  The hackers, according to the whistle-blowing site WikiLeaks, were "loosely affiliated" with 'anonymous' and passed information to WikiLeaks following the hack. 

Hackers gained access to the account by tricking Yahoo's password recovery system, by using information such as Gov. Palin's zip code and birth date, which were widely available online or easily determined.  With the password in hand they accessed her account.  All their activities were done using the CTunnel proxy service.

The FBI is investigating the breach and is demanding CTunnel turn over its records.  CTunnel has thus far refused.  It appears that the hackers may have left the original web address used by the proxy in one of their screenshots, which the FBI is also hoping to use to track the perpetrators.  If so, this would be a huge hacking gaff.  However, there is a very real possibility that the address may be a ruse as well.

It appears that there is also infighting among the group 'anonymous' over the attack.  An individual identifying himself as the 'good anonymous' sent an email to the account which may have first revealed the attack.  He states, "You don't know me, but I am part of an internet group.  We call ourselves anonymous.  This email was hacked by anonymous, but I took no part in that.  I simply got the password back, and changed it so no further damage could be done."

Yahoo said of the incident, "Yahoo treats issues of security and privacy very seriously.  To protect the privacy of our users, we are not able to comment on the details of a specific user account.  Generally, if Yahoo! receives reports that an account has been compromised, we investigate for suspicious activity and take appropriate action."



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Please correct your info Jason
By mdogs444 on 9/22/08, Rating: 0
RE: Please correct your info Jason
By JasonMick (blog) on 9/22/2008 10:20:09 AM , Rating: 3
This may be the case M, but the Wikileaks, who holds the leaked information states the the attack was carried out by members 'loosely affiliated' with the group anonymous. Until anonymous denounces the attack, which I am not aware of doing, this assumption stands.

Anonymous is a large organization. Even if Kernell or "Rubico" and their associates were found guilty of organizing this assault, it appears that whoever did organize this hack is part of anonymous or believes themself to be, at least.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By tallcool1 on 9/22/08, Rating: 0
RE: Please correct your info Jason
By jgvandemeer on 9/22/08, Rating: 0
RE: Please correct your info Jason
By FITCamaro on 9/22/08, Rating: -1
RE: Please correct your info Jason
By masher2 (blog) on 9/22/2008 12:54:43 PM , Rating: 4
> "The Democrats and media are just pissed because now the Republicans get to claim the first woman presidential nominee"

Eh? What about Geraldine Ferraro? While I admit the media bias against Palin is certainly overwhelming, let's not distort our history here.


By FITCamaro on 9/22/2008 2:09:15 PM , Rating: 1
My apologies. How about the first with a chance in hell at winning.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By someguy123 on 9/22/2008 2:16:45 PM , Rating: 2
Indeed. Also, I agree the media is heavily bias against Palin, but I also think they have a some right to be. bringing Palin in went completely against the republican's initial stance of "experience" vs Obama, and also against their claims that Hilary was just a woman gimmick.

To get back on topic, "anonymous" isn't really a group or anything of that sort, it's the default name on a specific website, and it started out as a joke to claim your actions as part of the "anonymous". Technically everyone is anonymous, it just depends on whether they choose to follow the sort of "joke" that is calling yourself a part of the "anonymous".


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By fuser197 on 9/22/2008 2:29:12 PM , Rating: 2
Palin's got a heck of a lot more experience than Obama.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By omnicronx on 9/22/08, Rating: 0
By theendofallsongs on 9/22/2008 3:35:03 PM , Rating: 2
Obama's "experience" didn't result in him sponsoring even one major bill. Even his voting record is slapstick, he voted 'present' (neither yes or no) more often than not.

Granted, he has some experience in keeping a chair warm, but he doesn't seem to have accomplished anything at all.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By EglsFly on 9/22/2008 4:52:24 PM , Rating: 4
Is this what your trying to say:
quote:
Her resume is something we are not used to seeing for a presidential candidate
If so, watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nBdH7emDj0

For the entire interview:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ie8LDlgJ0c

You may also forget of the last several presidents have all been former Governors: Reagan, Clinton, Bush

You say that Osama has been a Senator for almost 3 years, about the same length as Palin has been Governor. I do not see how you justify that his experience is better or more so than her's, considering of those 2 1/2 years as a Senator, he spent half of it running for President instead of working in his state as a Senator, I guess voting PRESENT qualifies?


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By tallcool1 on 9/23/2008 8:33:51 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
it seems to me that it is Obama that has the edge here, and Palins statements of being more experienced are unfounded.
Other than you have completely flipped the Republican ticket to make your arguement. Its not Obama vs Palin, the political race is Obama vs McCain.
At least the republican ticket is aligned properly, where the more experienced canidate is the primary on the ticket. You cannot say that for the democrate ticket.
quote:
Of course McCain is more experienced than the both of them, but that is a different story all together.
Here you admit that McCain has the most experience of all of them, but somehow dismiss it like he is not running.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By Quiescent on 9/24/2008 10:52:17 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, but Palin is going to be Vice president. I definitely do not want that woman to be vice president. I speak for many females as well. A lot of them simply do not like Palin, and I'm one of them. Even my step mother pointed out in the acceptance of being vice president speech, she put herself before her children. We don't want that for vice president. We want a woman who puts her children before herself, like every other woman in the US.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By AssBall on 9/25/2008 4:56:46 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe your mother should have actually watched the speech.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By someguy123 on 9/23/2008 1:03:54 AM , Rating: 2
I didn't mean that Obama has more experience, just that they emphasized experience and then grabbed Palin. Doesn't necessarily mean I'll be voting for Obama, it's just something that is clearly a very easy target for the media. I'm not sure why they made the decision since it should have been very obvious the media would have a field day with it, but I guess they don't believe the media has a large effect on the election.


By sigilscience on 9/23/2008 10:27:12 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
"just that they emphasized experience and then grabbed Palin"
While the Obama camp emphasized change-- then grabbed the oldest, most entrenched politician in all Washington. Somehow the media didn't "have a field day" with that. Strange, aint it?


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By mattclary on 9/22/2008 2:11:36 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, the Democrats aren't pissed, they are frightened. There hasn't been a true conservative in the White House since Reagan. Palin has conservatives fired up like they haven't been in 20 years.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By FITCamaro on 9/22/2008 3:19:15 PM , Rating: 2
Well yea that too. Personally the big reason I'm voting for McCain/Palin is because I want Palin to run in 2012. Four years of White House experience will give her a huge advantage over Hillary (because you know she's going to get the nomination next time).

And for the guy questioning her experience, please tell me what executive experience Obama (or McCain for that matter) brings to the table that trumps her few years as governor of Alaska. Oh excuse me other than him handling his own campaign. *rolls eyes* Yeah great nominee when one of his stated reasons for saying he's qualified is because he can run....

In that case, ME for president. I have my campaign staff all right here(myself) and we all agree my campaign is going well(since how can it go badly when it doesn't exist). So clearly I must be qualified. Personally I like the Nextel commercials idea. Let firemen run the country. Would probably do a better job and get shit done a whole lot quicker.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By omnicronx on 9/22/2008 3:21:12 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
Personally the big reason I'm voting for McCain/Palin is because I want Palin to run in 2012.
*shutters*

Funny.. I had a nightmare last night about the same thing ;)


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By mattclary on 9/22/2008 3:53:24 PM , Rating: 1
- - -

Whatever. Her personality alone wins me. I think she will make a great President one day. Don't get in a panic because she is not an atheist, it will take an act of god to illegalize abortion, the president has little direct control of that.


By mattclary on 9/22/2008 3:54:47 PM , Rating: 1
...and it is "shudders" not "shutters"


By smitty3268 on 9/22/2008 11:28:47 PM , Rating: 2
I find Palin very likable, and that's a little scary. Because I disagree with her on just about every issue. Or at least, from what little I know - she hasn't been exactly forthcoming, and is basically just reciting the party platform right now. Hopefully we'll eventually get some real talk from her before the election.

Anyway, it's true that Obama doesn't have much more experience than Palin. I never thought it was the most important characteristic anyway. I'm much more concerned that we don't really know very much about Palin or her views. At least with Obama he has been in the spotlight for quite a while and you have a pretty good idea of what he stands for and how he thinks.

The funniest thing I've seen all year long on Fox News was all those conservative commentators mentioning how you could see Russia from Alaska, and how that meant she had serious foreign policy experience. LOL. And they were the same ones who were complaining so loudly before about the opponent.

All the talk about Palin's family was pretty despicable tabloid journalism, and it was easy to see that was going to backfire bigtime. The media has done the same thing to the democrats, though, so it's not like it was unexpected.


By corduroygt on 9/23/2008 5:20:46 PM , Rating: 2
I am not too keen on trusting a woman who can't keep her daughter from getting pregnant to govern the country. My political leanings are liberal, atheist, and anarchist. I love the GOP idea of less government the better, and I agree, but unfortunately they have been going in the opposite direction with increased government regulation and Wall st. bailout. I'd vote republican if they weren't grounded in religion.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By oab on 9/26/2008 6:32:41 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
"look at how irresponsible Palin was for letting her email get hacked!"


Look how irresponsible it is for using a Yahoo! account to conduct government business! Surely that is why the state pays for (presumably) Exchange servers so that things like this cannot be so easily accomplished!


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By DamOTclese on 9/22/08, Rating: 0
RE: Please correct your info Jason
By porkpie on 9/22/2008 3:53:46 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Actually the Christian extremist was caught committing treason and felonies by conducting government business using private email accounts
Are you trying to make all Democrats look like fools? There is no law against discussing your work life in private emails. It only rises to the level of ethical misconduct (which is SEVERAL steps below an actual crime) if you were attempting to keep something off the public record, which she hasn't been shown to have done.

Meanwhile, members of Congress such as Charles Rangel has recently been caught cheating on his taxes (a REAL felony) and the Democrats decided they won't even reprimand him or remove him from chairing the Ways and Means Committee-- the group that oversees our own tax laws!

I swear to god that's too ironic for words. No one could make this stuff up.


RE: Please correct your info Jason
By Ringold on 9/22/2008 5:19:50 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Actually the Christian extremist was caught committing treason and felonies by conducting government business using private email accounts which are not subject to FOIA requests or governmental oversight. Palin needs to go to prison for that -- at minimum.


You don't even want to go down this road, as cross comparisons with Democrats would litter that road with stinking corpses like "Leaky" Leahy and Schumer who essentially instigated a run on Indymac earlier this year.

By your standards, Schumer should be forced to cough up the several billion that cost and Leahy should not just go to prison but be executed. If you want to include conspiracies in general, then Chris Dodd should share a prison cell with Schumer due to his refusal to give the Federal Reserve a full set of governors, who have staggered 14 year terms to try to avoid exactly his sort of FOMC packing attempts. If you want to throw around the "treason" word, maybe Dodd ought to get the electric chair as well, perhaps he has purposefully attempted to annihilate the entire capitalist banking system? Not all that likely, but no more wild than your conspiracies.


Get off it
By FITCamaro on 9/22/2008 10:12:21 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
The situation becomes particularly tricky due to an ethics probe into whether Gov. Palin unethically sacked her former brother-in-law from the police force.


The guy was stalking her sister, threatened her, and her father. It's completely on the record. Just more liberal crap because they've got nothing really to call her on so they're digging as deep as they can.




RE: Get off it
By mdogs444 on 9/22/08, Rating: 0
RE: Get off it
By tastyratz on 9/22/2008 1:01:48 PM , Rating: 2
Popular ultimately depends on the vote.
Right now shes got so much press because of her gender, its certainly not because of her experience.
People may scoff - but both parties are corrupt with their own "special interests" The candidate is really just a meat puppet for their party. Politicians have their views, dreams, and promises... but rarely follow up on them. Its hard to vote based on stance these days... if anything it almost just makes more sense to vote to switch between parties to help retain balance between the different special interests groups. Doesn't matter as long as we have electoral college anyways... but its fun to debate like the vote counted :-)


RE: Get off it
By mdogs444 on 9/22/2008 3:31:49 PM , Rating: 2
Popular as far as the republican base and popular as far as her approval rating w/in the state. Those two cannot be distorted no matter how you slice it.


RE: Get off it
By amanojaku on 9/22/2008 1:32:59 PM , Rating: 4
First of all, Mike Wooten, Sarah Palin's ex-brother-in-law, is still a trooper on the force. Palin's administration fired Commissioner Walt Monegan, the circumstances of which are being investigated in connection to Wooten's employment. It's suspected that Monegan was fired as a result of his not firing Wooten.

Funny thing about America: people are innocent until proven guilty, and guilt must be established with proof. Let's look at Wooten's problems:

1)
quote:
The guy was stalking her sister

There were no allegations of Wooten stalking Molly McCann. Where are you getting that?

2)
quote:
threatened her and her father.

The only witnesses to the death threats was Molly McCann, the ex-wife, and Sarah Palin. Additionally, the judge noted the family seemed to be making a point of disparaging Wooten's character using unsubstantiated claims of abuse.

3)
quote:
mdogs444: Not to mention he tazed his own step-son

The guy tased his soon for a second, which, according to the manufacturer, is a test setting that's equivalent to hitting your funny bone. And the kid asked for it. Seriously, he begged to be tased.
quote:
Jon Marc Peterson, one of Wooten's attorneys, said the Taser incident was a violation of policy because he was using state equipment for personal use. "It was not the actual Tasing of the stepson that was the issue," he said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/artic...
http://www.adn.com/politics/story/476430.html

Wooten's no angel and definitely has shown episodes of irresponsibility, but the evidence doesn't show him to be the unstable monster Palin's family claims he is. I'm not saying he isn't: I'm saying it hasn't been proven.


RE: Get off it
RE: Get off it
By theendofallsongs on 9/22/2008 2:06:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The guy tased his soon for a second...And the kid asked for it.
Tasers have killed over 200 people who had undetected heart defects or other health problems. They've also seriously injured tens of thousands (when you get tased, you usually fall down hard).

My kid asks me if we can do all sorts of dangerous things. Responsible parents know better though.

quote:
The only witnesses to the death threats was Molly McCann, the ex-wife, and Sarah Palin
People (especially cops who know the legal system) dont tend to make illegal death threats in the presence of a lot of witnesses.

quote:
Funny thing about America: people are innocent until proven guilt
Funny you say that, then turn around and repeat unsubstantiated claims about Monegan being fired because he wouldn't fire Wooten.


RE: Get off it
By omnicronx on 9/22/2008 2:53:38 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
My kid asks me if we can do all sorts of dangerous things. Responsible parents know better though.
He already said it was a test setting, normally a taser outputs at about 50,000 watts... This was probably more like sticking a 9v battery to your tongue and holding it for a few seconds =P.
quote:
People (especially cops who know the legal system) dont tend to make illegal death threats in the presence of a lot of witnesses.
Do you have any idea what this was about? This all has to do with a divorce going south, and Wooten wanting child custody rights . In a period of a year, 25 formal complaints were filed against Wooten, the Palin's hired a private investigator, and Palins husband even took pictures and submitted them to his supervisor trying to get him fired. Palin even claimed that she witnessed Wootin drinking and driving but once Troopers investigated, they found out she never actually even saw him.

"According to Trooper records, Sarah Palin said that in January and February of 2005, Wooten was drinking while driving. After investigating the complaint, the investigator found that Palin never actually saw what she reported."

Its pretty hard to take any of the Palin's statements seriously when she outright lied to officers. And don't think that Wooten would use this as part of his defense.

quote:
Funny you say that, then turn around and repeat unsubstantiated claims about Monegan being fired because he wouldn't fire Wooten.
These claims were made long before Palin was nominated, and there is currently an investigation underway. Personally I think they have a good case against Palin, it seems pretty obvious she has abused her power. Also considering that Wooten did not have any problem at all in 8 years on the force other than with the palins is also very suspicious.

"In Wooten's eight year career, the only complaints that have been filed against him came from people associated with Governor Palin during a divorce and child custody fight in which they were trying to get him fired so he wouldn't be able to get custody of his children."

I also find it very suspect that the reason for Monegan being fired was because the governor wanted "to go in another direction,". (she was quoted saying that).

This just makes me think, do you really want her as your next vice president, or if old man McCain were to die, your next president? The mere thought of it scares me.


RE: Get off it
By FITCamaro on 9/22/08, Rating: -1
RE: Get off it
By Yossarian22 on 9/22/08, Rating: 0
RE: Get off it
By sgw2n5 on 9/24/2008 6:09:54 PM , Rating: 2
Pffft. Go home and watch some more fox news. If your lucky you might be able to catch a few minutes of Rush Limbaugh on the ride.


RE: Get off it
By omnicronx on 9/25/2008 11:04:45 AM , Rating: 2
The difference here being, Palin actually committed the act, meanwhile I don't see Obama going around blowing up buildings.

Which by the way, he was 8 years old when Ayers committed his terrorist acts.

Personally I don't like either of the candidates, but please do not tarnish Obama's name because of something that happened in the 60's in his infancy. Just ask you parents about all the stuff that went on in the 60's, and you will see its not the black and white you are making it out to be.


RE: Get off it
By sigilscience on 9/25/2008 1:35:52 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry but blowing up buildings IS black and white. It's wrong, then, now, and always. It's frightening you can't see that.


RE: Get off it
By PresidentThomasJefferson on 9/22/2008 2:53:03 PM , Rating: 2
Good post, Aman, also, everyone FORGETS THIS FACT:

http://www.theatlantic.com

“The hacking incident should not draw attention away from thefollowing: Sarah Palin used her private email account to conduct statebusiness, and she was doing so to circumvent the state’s public recordslaw.” By Conor Clarke READ MORE


also, it's standard police training in some depts to be tased so as to know what it feels like(the trooper fired it at the lowest power setting after his son asked to be shot) (and trained martial artists on Disovery channel documentary showed how u can even still move & pull out the darts)


RE: Get off it
By Ringold on 9/22/2008 5:24:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
(and trained martial artists on Disovery channel documentary showed how u can even still move & pull out the darts)


That was impressive, I saw that, but I think that guy could've ate an RPG and still survived long enough to tear a guys head off. :P


RE: Get off it
By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/23/2008 7:23:46 AM , Rating: 5
Right, because there was a smoking gun in her yahoo mailbox. So far I haven't seen any and if there was the media like MSNBC and CNN would be running it nonstop. Clearly there is no smoking gun. Frankly I hope the FBI locks this kid up for a good long while as an example that this sort of thing will not be tolerated.

This kid is using a classic example of the ends justifies the means.


RE: Get off it
By omnicronx on 9/25/2008 10:09:54 AM , Rating: 2
Are you seriously saying that this kid should be locked up because Palin decided to use her real address and personal information for the forgot your password portion of her yahoo account?

I am sorry but she is a nominee to help run the country! There is something called common sense here, everything should be locked down, for the sake of her running mate let alone security. Imagine if there had been some kind of information in those emails that in the wrong hands could have ruined McCain? Palin was conducting state business with her yahoo email, regardless if it was sensitive information, she should be held accountable for her actions.

Don't get me wrong, this kid should be punished, but in the same way any other person that has 'hacked' someones email account is dealt with, and should not be made example of.
This was a Palin screwup! What if it had been state secrets and it was China or Russian hackers accessing the account?

You can't merely say that oh well, she screwed up, but it is the hackers that are to blame here! Any security analyst will tell you that there are always two parties to blame when something gets compromised, the hacker for intruding, and the owner of the material for not having the correct security for the situation.


RE: Get off it
By sigilscience on 9/25/2008 1:39:56 PM , Rating: 3
Are you seriously suggesting we shouldn't prosecute someone for a very real and serious crime, just because he found that crime easy to commit?

I don't always remember to lock my front door, but if someone comes in and steals me blind, I sincerely hope the judge in the case has more sense than god gave you.


hacking..
By omnicronx on 9/22/2008 11:14:54 AM , Rating: 1
Is this really what people consider hacking these days?




RE: hacking..
By mdogs444 on 9/22/2008 11:16:29 AM , Rating: 2
Hacking doesn't mean you're a big time network or coding guru. Hacking can be as simple as obtaining personal information by illegally curtailing a system- such as this example.


RE: hacking..
By Hieyeck on 9/22/2008 12:31:26 PM , Rating: 1
No, since this doesn't even constitute hacking. It's just wit and social engineering.


RE: hacking..
By omnicronx on 9/22/2008 12:42:41 PM , Rating: 2
He did not not gain access to the system, and there was no security breach, so nothing was really 'hacked'. Yahoo's system worked exactly as it is suppose to, it was just Palin's stupidity that allowed access to the account. I am also pretty sure yahoo lets you choose with security question you want.


RE: hacking..
By DamOTclese on 9/22/2008 3:49:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
What people consider hacking these days

The mainstream media considers just about anything to be "hacking." It's amusing to the channers -- more for the LUL machine.

It's sexy to claim everything is "hacking" because guessing passwords is unexciting. It's why the Bush fascist State calls everything "terrorism" even when it's something like mundane arson or theft.


This is mostly wrong
By DamOTclese on 9/22/2008 3:37:15 PM , Rating: 4
I'm sorry but whoever wrote this article is wrong. The individual who used Yahoo's "remember" features didn't "hack" the account.

Also he posted information about the email account to 4chan but that doesn't make him a member of Anonymous -- the Project Chanology group wearing the Falwks masks protesting against the Scientology corporation's crimes and abuses.

To be sure, the author's mistakes are reflected in the idiot mainstream media which likewise wants to pretend that channers are some how Anonymous -- they're not interchangable. The 20-year-old channer who exposed Palin's crimes in such a stupid way could very well have participated in human rights and civil rights demonstrations outside of Scientology business offices, but it is not known whether that is the case, ergo it's a mistake to claim that he was a "member of Anonymous."

Anyone who wants to see what 4chan is, go visit the web site and be disgusted. If you want to see what Anonymous does, visit the Enturbulation.Org web site and check out the message forums -- and you'll see that Anonymous is a force for beneficial human rights and civil rights, and as you examine the message postings there you will see that Anonymous is annoyed that idiots are claiming the 4chan kiddies are some how Anonymous. They are not.

My opinions only and only my opinions, as always.




RE: This is mostly wrong
By Rob Pintwala on 9/26/2008 9:51:07 PM , Rating: 2
No. Anon existed as a silly entity long before the lame Scientology raids began. You must be new, not that that's a bad thing, though.


I'm concerned
By monkeyman1140 on 9/23/2008 11:33:15 AM , Rating: 3
Palin's use of a Yahoo! free account for official government e-mail business breaks Alaskan state law, and possibly federal laws. Thats the big story here.




RE: I'm concerned
By sigilscience on 9/23/2008 2:14:01 PM , Rating: 2
There were no laws broken Monkeyman. There's a big difference betwween discussing state business and conducting state business. And even conducting business on private emails isn't illegal unless you were trying to keep something off the public record. That's the same reason its legal to discuss business over the telephone.

Meanwhile in other news, Joe Biden just criticized running mate Obama for his attack ad against McCain, and then went on to talk about FDR appearing on the TV after the '29 stock market crash (though Hoover was president then, and TVs didn't even exist outside of labs). He then went on to say how he's against any clean-coal plants in the US (though the Obama campaign says they're for them). Talk about your industrial-strength gaffes!

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0908/Biden_...
http://embeds.blogs.foxnews.com/2008/09/22/biden-c...


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