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PG&E has received numerous complaints regarding its program of the future

PG&E cannot be pleased with the preliminary evaluations of its SmartMeter program, with numerous complaints of malfunctioning units and displeasure of the innovative $2.2 billion program.

Engineers designed SmartMeters to more accurately track the electricity or gas usage of a house or business -- all information can also be read remotely, which has led to some grumbles of potential privacy issues.  In an ideal situation, SmartMeters will be able to give home owners the ability to easily  track energy usage of a refrigerator, dryer, and other appliances.

The state of California is working with PG&E to place 10 million SmartMeters throughout the state in the coming years -- both in residential areas and business districts -- but the program itself is off to a rocky start.

Some home owners are now saying their electricity bills greatly increased over the summer, either revealing a faulty SmartMeter, or intentional overcharging on the part of PG&E.  There have been numerous other complaints also causing a bit of alarm among energy advocates and state officials.

Due to the high level of criticism, the California Public Utilities Commission said PG&E must allow its SmartMeters to be verified by a third-party.

"We think there should be a moratorium on SmartMeters until we can ascertain that they're actually working," The Utility Reform Network (TURN) representative Mindy Spatt told the San Jose Mercury News.

PG&E fired back by issuing the following statement to the Mercury News;  "The meters themselves are completely accurate, and we stand behind the SmartMeter program.  The allegations in the lawsuit are untrue and have no merit."

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question
By meepstone on 11/16/2009 2:32:10 PM , Rating: 2
Why would there be privacy concerns over this???

Someone might steal your electric meter readings, OH NO!!!




RE: question
By mdogs444 on 11/16/09, Rating: -1
RE: question
By justsomeone on 11/16/2009 2:49:14 PM , Rating: 2
I'd like to see them control my 1960's style thermostat. Good luck with that.


RE: question
By mdogs444 on 11/16/2009 2:51:31 PM , Rating: 2
I say the same thing. I dont have a "smart meter", nor do i want one.


RE: question
By CuriousMike on 11/16/2009 3:03:29 PM , Rating: 3
They don't control your thermostat... this isn't for that.
They tie in outside at your gas main and electrical main and send your usage to their main center.
No one walking in your backyard to read your meters.


RE: question
By invidious on 11/16/09, Rating: -1
RE: question
By justsomeone on 11/16/2009 3:36:29 PM , Rating: 2
i'm not saying they can't slow my power usage if i'm forced to "upgrade" to one of these. just that they can't control my thermostat. that's ridiculous.


RE: question
By mindless1 on 11/17/2009 5:16:21 PM , Rating: 2
You do realize your thermostat, even the mechanical ones, depend on power, on the right incoming AC line voltage before stepping down by a transformer, yes?

So what can they do? When they sense use of gas for a furnace, cut your power. They could given such controls force the temperature to remain below what you set, or alternatively sense a rise in power consumption rate equivalent to an A/C compressor turning on.

Not that they would, but there's more than one way to skin a cat.


RE: question
By xmichaelx on 11/16/2009 4:27:01 PM , Rating: 5
Umm...they could do that now. The only difference is that someone would have to physically come to your house.

If you're that concerned, you should probably live off the grid.


RE: question
By mindless1 on 11/17/2009 5:20:04 PM , Rating: 2
... and yet having the logistics issues, manpower and visibility of people checking the meter physically on a very frequent basis IS a significant difference.

Essentially you have to concede that they purposefully chose and acknowledge the smart meters do allow a significant difference or else they wouldn't have bothered with them at all.

That's no reason to be paranoid, but certainly concerned if their supposedly accurate prior meters registered lower power consumption than the new ones.


RE: question
By ZmaxDP on 11/16/2009 4:46:46 PM , Rating: 2
I understand your concern, but explain to me why they can't do that already??? They read your meter anyway, all that changes is when they get the information. What's to stop them from installing a limiter in line with your supply? Nothing except reality.

This is the worst argument against these things. (There are some better ones) As a private company, they have a financial incentive to let you use more because they make money on the amount you use.

Any downward pressure to reduce consumption is coming from the government you help elect. And, if they decide to cut you off for exceeding a certain amount they hardly need a smart meter to do it. Besides, they're politicians. They're terrified of pissing off their base. And their base isn't any more efficient than you are, they just think they are half the time.

Even if they managed to pass something to mandate a cut-off beyond a certain limit, Al Gore's pad will be safe from the cut off point and I don't know many humans on this planet who waste as much energy as that guy. So, you're probably safe.


RE: question
By mmcdonalataocdotgov on 11/17/2009 12:02:12 PM , Rating: 2
They don't need a smart meter to do that. Try wrapping the tin foil a little tighter...


RE: question
By Ammohunt on 11/16/09, Rating: -1
RE: question
By Bonrock on 11/16/2009 2:56:19 PM , Rating: 5
But the government is our enemy! Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin said so!


RE: question
By mdogs444 on 11/16/2009 2:58:23 PM , Rating: 5
I would believe someone who says "dont trust anyone" over someone who says "you can trust me".


RE: question
By ClownPuncher on 11/16/2009 4:05:03 PM , Rating: 5
How do we trust YOU when you say that? You could be lying, trying to trick us into not trusting anyone.

OH CRAP, maybe you're just trying to make me think you are lying about not trusting anyone to get me to trust everyone!

Screw it, you're all the devil!


RE: question
By Ristogod on 11/16/2009 3:14:43 PM , Rating: 4
And they would be correct.


RE: question
By gunzac21 on 11/17/2009 2:30:49 AM , Rating: 3
and you must be a fool.


RE: question
By SublimeSimplicity on 11/16/2009 3:21:15 PM , Rating: 5
Along with Thomas Paine, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin, pretty much all our founding fathers... but your list is definitely more pop culture approved.


RE: question
By ClownPuncher on 11/16/2009 3:59:34 PM , Rating: 2
Yikes, from Glenn Beck to Thomas Jefferson in two posts. This is a sad day.


RE: question
By Sulphademus on 11/17/2009 10:42:38 AM , Rating: 2
Whats that thing about a broken clock? Still right twice a day? I dont watch or listen to Glenn Beck but Im sure he's right once in a while. Im sure Al Gore is right about some things too (about what though, I dont know).

Politician says "Dont trust the government"
I say "Okay, Eff the government and Eff you too buddy!"

Also, BG&E is doing the smart meter thingy too (the B is for Baltimore, in case you're not from around here). They state explicitly that during high usage times they will remotely cycle your heat or AC on and off to reduce peak demands. For this they will give you discounts on your power bills. My former boss did it last spring and he said that he didn't notice any difference over the summer but I'm not sold yet.


RE: question
By gunzac21 on 11/17/09, Rating: 0
RE: question
By MarcLeFou on 11/16/2009 5:00:13 PM , Rating: 2
Do you wear a tinfoil hat and have a stockpile of weapons in your shed for when "they" attack ?


RE: question
By PhoenixKnight on 11/16/2009 5:17:22 PM , Rating: 2
What a complete waste of time! Everyone knows that 'they' are resistant to conventional weapons and that the mind control nano-devices are found in tap water.


RE: question
By lowsidex2 on 11/17/2009 1:32:10 PM , Rating: 1
That is a legitimate concern (or feature for some). I grew up in Las Vegas in the 80's early 90's. We had a good size two story with two air conditioner units. Physically attached to the side of the outdoor unit was a box that received radio signals from the electric company and they would remotely turn off our A/C for short periods every hour to control demand during the hot summers. I believe this was voluntary at the time but it gave us a break on our bill and helped the city from brownouts.

With smart grids and smart devices plugged into the smart grid the same is possible without our consent. Imagine government regulation requiring smart appliances and A/C in 10years.


Privacy Concerns, Etc
By Brainonska511 on 11/16/2009 2:32:38 PM , Rating: 3
People really have privacy concerns that the power meter can be read remotely instead of someone walking meter to meter and reading it manually? If anything, someone reading it manually is more of a privacy invasion, as the person can peak in through your windows, etc.

As for smart meters, I like the idea of them - let me see some real savings for running my heavy electrical devices during off-peak hours instead of the current average price I normally see with my dumb meter.




RE: Privacy Concerns, Etc
By XZerg on 11/16/2009 2:38:25 PM , Rating: 3
I think the privacy concerns over this is that someone who pick up these signals to determine your activities at home - not exactly pinpoint it but rather to determine you are home or not. Usually no power surges/drops would indicate that you are not home. And vice versa when there is a surge/drop.

I think that's a fair concern as now the robbers don't need to come close to the house to determine anyone home or not - fairly from a safe distance. The added bonus is they can do so for many houses in one go - opening up the doors <pun intended> for if not this house then the next one today.


RE: Privacy Concerns, Etc
By Brainonska511 on 11/16/2009 3:02:00 PM , Rating: 2
Someone could pick up on if you're home by driving by your house and seeing if there are cars in the driveway or lights on in the house. They don't have to stake out your house to determine if you're home. They could just drive by at different times.

Is the signal from the smart meter traveling wirelessly? I would think they just use some sort of modified internet over powerline signaling stuff to monitor it and I imagine that would be fairly hard to intercept.


RE: Privacy Concerns, Etc
By mindless1 on 11/17/2009 5:23:19 PM , Rating: 2
You are overlooking the factor of time spent and convenience.

For example, if a burglar can rob a house spending 1 hour total it may seem worth the time, but if it requires several days of checking, monitoring the target and surroundings so as not to be seen... not so much.


RE: Privacy Concerns, Etc
By mdogs444 on 11/16/09, Rating: -1
RE: Privacy Concerns, Etc
By Brainonska511 on 11/16/2009 2:59:36 PM , Rating: 2
They could only "remotely control" your thermostat if it was hooked into the meter. If you're using a oil heater - how will a smart power or gas meter control your heater? Oh, that's right, it can't.

Same with electric heat. What are they going to do? Brown-out your house?

And gas - limit the amount of gas going into your house so that you can't cook as a side effect?

The only way the evil power company or evil government could control your thermostat is if the thermostat was tied directly into the power meter.

The power company already knows how much you're using based on their own manual meter readings and could easily report those to the government or send you a warning about using too much electricity.


RE: Privacy Concerns, Etc
By Spuke on 11/16/2009 3:25:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
he power company already knows how much you're using based on their own manual meter readings and could easily report those to the government or send you a warning about using too much electricity.
Yeah, I agree here. There's nothing more than can be done here that can't be done already. My only concern is someone intercepting the transmission. I just read on their website that it is indeed wireless. Check it out.

http://www.pge.com/myhome/customerservice/meter/sm...


RE: Privacy Concerns, Etc
By Spuke on 11/16/2009 3:31:56 PM , Rating: 2
Looks like there are wireless relays connected to secure cellular links attached to telephone poles. I wonder what they do about area's that don't have telephone poles.


RE: Privacy Concerns, Etc
By Masospaghetti on 11/16/2009 3:47:23 PM , Rating: 2
This is an important point...all companies operate on profit, and especially an energy company is not going to spend money to reduce their revenue. Either they see this as a way to increase profit, or they are being forced into this.

I don't think they are being forced into anything (yet) so i'd bet they have a strategy in place with these Smart Meters that will bring increased revenue (ie, make the consumers pay more for less).


RE: Privacy Concerns, Etc
By cmdrdredd on 11/16/09, Rating: -1
RE: Privacy Concerns, Etc
By MarcLeFou on 11/16/2009 5:09:30 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, utility companies see this as a way to manage their power during peak consumption periods so they'll have less of a need to buy electricty on the markets (expensive).

If you can regulate consumption to be more even during 24 hours you can utilise more of your electricty during slow times and less bought electricity during peak times.

Definately a win business-wise for them.

This is actually the economic markets at work here. Lower demand during peak time by charging more and increase it during low times by charging less. Utility companies should have done this 30 years ago from a business perspective.

Too bad the governement needed to get involved for this to happen in the first place. How badly run can power companies be ?


Smart grid tech
By sandhuatdt on 11/16/2009 2:49:16 PM , Rating: 2
I read through TURN's website for their concerns about a smart grid and their solutions for lowering energy consumption and it is very clear they simply do not understand the complications in how a grid works and the new demands it faces. Consumer education about turning down the thermostat and all that is good and will definitely help lower usage but the newer demands from PHEVs, renewable energy sources feeding into the grid and proper demand management need solutions much beyond this simple remedies. Regarding reports of over-reading meters, I think what's happened is that in lots of places, the old meters were simply not working well or as is the case with older meters, they get slower with time. Now, when they were replaced with newer meters, the usage showed up as to what was actually being used. So, ironically, it might be that the older meters were faulty and people had it paying less for a number of years.




RE: Smart grid tech
By mdogs444 on 11/16/2009 2:53:54 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Now, when they were replaced with newer meters, the usage showed up as to what was actually being used. So, ironically, it might be that the older meters were faulty and people had it paying less for a number of years.

Ok, so what is my incentive to get a "smart meter" then? I know how much my bills usually are on a monthly basis, so I see no need to change meters. No one is going to charge me more, and accuse me of having a faulty meter - that seems way too convenient for them since I have no ability to fight it.


RE: Smart grid tech
By aj28 on 11/16/2009 9:07:18 PM , Rating: 3
You don't get the smart meter by choice, the energy company puts it there. It's their property and as a service provider they have every right to do it. If you choose to deny them that right, then you need to find a different company to associate yourself with or live with the idea that you do not, in fact, completely control everything in or around your general vicinity. If your meter is faulty and you haven't been paying for the product you've been receiving then it's unfair to other customers and/or those who work for the energy company. Are you morally dead, or what?

I take it you were the kid in school who chose not to correct the teacher when they graded your test wrong.

I suggest you stop being so paranoid of corporations out to get you. If you play by the rules and follow the policy then you have nothing to fear. These companies are run by people just like you, and whatever evil you find inherent in them is likely inherent in yourself as well.


RE: Smart grid tech
By Regected on 11/16/2009 4:11:28 PM , Rating: 2
The only way smart grid technology will reduce power consumption is by forcing people to not use electricity during peak usage. That's what these meters are intended to allow the power company to do. Why else would they need to know your by-the-minute energy usage on a household level? Nothing more than energy companies looking to make more money off of people. They will charge more for peak usage power, but I doubt they will drop the price for off peak power.

And the energy crisis, outside of California, is a bunch of bull. Within 50 miles of my house, I know of 3 electric plants that were sold to shell companies for the explicit purpose of taking them out of service. Two were less than 25 years old and the third was around 35 years old.


RE: Smart grid tech
By Taft12 on 11/16/2009 5:11:39 PM , Rating: 3
It's indeed a very complex system that is becoming even moreso, but the solution is simple: REDUCE PEAK USAGE! Electricity is MUCH more expensive to provide while the grid usage is at its highest and Smartmeters bring that reality to consumers.


Welcome to modern technology in the power industry
By rgsaunders on 11/16/2009 2:15:25 PM , Rating: 3
We too have recently had "smart" meters installed in our area, and some rather strange results have emerged. One example would be the people who had everything turned off for most of the summer as they were away at their cottage, imagine their reaction when their bill for the period was 6 times what their normal billing would have been when they were home.




By Drag0nFire on 11/16/2009 2:29:44 PM , Rating: 3
Lol, clearly someone was squatting in their house while they were away!

J/k


By kattanna on 11/16/2009 4:27:53 PM , Rating: 2
i would find it interesting what the meter was actually reading. was there a dramatic increase in units the meter was relaying, or such extra charges for peak usage.


me too!
By Randomblame on 11/16/2009 5:06:23 PM , Rating: 1
I live in Kelso Washington, cowlitz county PUD just started a similar program with new digital meters that can be remotely read. The problem I'm having is the same! My electric bill went up from $40 per month to $210 as soon as they installed the damned thing! I called the PUD and had them come out, they checked the meter and declaired that it was functioning perfectly and that I must have had a faulty one installed originally... BULL There is no way I'm using this much power, I did all the math and I'd have to have 3 grow houses and a meth lab in my basement to pull this much juice. A lot of other people up here are very very angry about it. These meters lie! f




RE: me too!
By kattanna on 11/17/2009 10:53:59 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
I'd have to have 3 grow houses and a meth lab in my basement


i can see how your grow houses with their extra lighting is jacking up your bill, but just what are you doing within your meth lab to use soo much power?

;>)


RE: me too!
By DaveLessnau on 11/19/2009 11:05:29 AM , Rating: 2
Randomblame,

According to:

http://www.cowlitzpud.org/pdf/RateSchedule1_9-18-0...

your rate for electricity is $5.12/kWh. At $40/month, that would imply a monthly average of 40/5.12 = 7.8kWh. Backing that down to smaller time periods, your daily average is 7.8/30 = 260 Wh (that's watt-hours, not Kilowatt-hours).

What that boils down to is that based on your old $40/month rate, you could only be using as much electricity per day (total) as, say, running your computer for a little over an hour. Heck, from eyeballing the list I see here:

http://www.energystar.gov/index.cfm?fuseaction=ref...

The average daily electricity use for a refrigerator is about 1 kWH. That's 4 times what your $40/month bill implies. So, unless you're sitting in a shack with only 1 60-watt bulb that you only run for 4 hours a day, your old bill was flat-out, drastically, wrong.

Also, from the little box on the page here:

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/consumer/tips/applianc...

"A typical U.S. household consumes about 11,000 kWh per year...." Dividing that down to a monthly rate, that's 11,000/12 = 916kWh. Or, 117 times greater than your rate. So, that's just another indication that your old meter was waaaaay off. Just thank the deity of your choice that the power company isn't coming after you for some estimate of the amount of power you were really using all that time.


RE: me too!
By DaveLessnau on 11/19/2009 11:19:49 AM , Rating: 2
Gah! You'd think that after doing all that work, I'd double-check my units. Your electricity rate is 5.12 CENTS per kWh, not 5.12 DOLLARS. So, that moves your monthly usage to 780kWh and daily usage to 26kWh. Low (about 85% of the national average), but not like the ridiculously low numbers I was initially coming up with. I'd delete my post, if I could. But, since I can't, all I can do is offer my apologies.


We have a smartmeter
By CuriousMike on 11/16/2009 3:02:30 PM , Rating: 2
Located in Fremont, California
Installed at the beginning of the year.

We have seen an increase in our PG&E bills of ~20% compared to the same bills last year.

Something isn't right.




RE: We have a smartmeter
By 67STANG on 11/16/2009 3:35:05 PM , Rating: 2
Everybody says their bills are 20-45% higher with the smart meters installed. I'm pretty sure the utility company is behind that.

I'm just glad on I'm Edison instead of PG&E. They are still using good old fashioned humans to read our "dumb" meters... My bill hasn't changed at all. =)


Quality of Device
By B on 11/16/2009 3:21:45 PM , Rating: 2
Our gas meter was just upgraded. I was surprized at the build quality of the Smart Meter. All plastic even with plastic gears that are driven by the flow of gas to produce a measurement. This replaced the convential display on our meter which was built from glass and metal and had all metal gears inside. It looks like PGE bought it at the Dollar Store.

I wonder how long it will last before the sun and water damage the device.




RE: Quality of Device
By ajira99 on 11/17/2009 8:48:00 AM , Rating: 2
These units are tested under varying environmental conditions (UV, rain, freezing, high heat, etc) and are typically rated for 15 - 20 years of field use.


Smart Meter power customer here...
By Taft12 on 11/16/2009 5:07:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Some home owners are now saying their electricity bills greatly increased over the summer, either revealing a faulty SmartMeter, or intentional overcharging on the part of PG&E.


It seems I'm in the minority as a supporter of SmartMeter technology (and I have one too!) The reason bills went way up over the summer was that customers used to pay the same rate per kWh all day long. Now during the middle of the day, rates are higher and they left their air conditioner running! It's not rocket science. Our newspaper letters-to-the-editor section is filled with seniors complaining that they don't work in an office and MUST run their A/C in the middle of weekdays, but the point of these meters is to reduce peak usage since that power costs providers MUCH more.




By mindless1 on 11/17/2009 5:31:46 PM , Rating: 2
That's fine, so long as they also charge a LOWER than prior rate in the off-peak periods.


Benefits and drawbacks...
By ajira99 on 11/17/2009 8:59:47 AM , Rating: 2
As with any technology, especially one that is driven by the political process. But there are quite a few benefits to a smartmeter, as well. Even though the consumer will need to be more "responsible" for their energy usage, it will be easier to track that usage on any PC in the house and handle disputes with the provider. Security should be enhanced once meters utilizing WiMAX are released; although, as it is, you still need a template to properly decode the data from current energy products even if you managed to catch a transmission before it hops to the next frequency. I've worked with this technology before and I've never seen personally identifiable info in the transmissions.

One of the potential benefits is that it will be easier for energy providers to isolate trouble areas and effect repairs during storms, etc.




RE: Benefits and drawbacks...
By mindless1 on 11/17/2009 5:33:44 PM , Rating: 2
ajira99 wrote:

"But there are quite a few benefits to a smartmeter, as well. Even though the consumer will need to be more "responsible" for their energy usage, it will be easier to track that usage on any PC in the house and handle disputes with the provider."

Unfortunately what is actually happening directly contradicts that, people merely being told "no it is working properly" after a substantial increase in their bill.


By justsomeone on 11/16/2009 2:58:44 PM , Rating: 2
You can buy your own meter for about $100 if you want to double check their numbers.




By mb28 on 11/16/2009 8:27:51 PM , Rating: 2
These smart meters do more than wirelessly send your usage data back to their processing center, they also track how much electricity/gas you use throughout the day. If you run your washer and dryer during the middle of the day, when demand is at its highest, they will charge you more $ per kilowatt than if you were to do your laundry at night when demand is lower.

Also, they allow people to go onto a website and check their usage in real-time.

I can't seem to find a link to the article, but it quoted a PG&E spokesperson as saying something to the tune of $0.09 per Kwh at night for a clothes dryer versus $0.34 per kwh during the day. So if you pick low demand periods of the day, you could potentially save money. Though you could also end up paying more if you're not careful.

In addition to the daytime variability, PG&E will charge you more or less based on previous year's and month's usage. So each residence has a baseline (about the average you've used). If you fall below the baseline, you'll save a lot more and they will supposedly bill you less per unit of energy you consume. If you go above the baseline, you may pay up to 30% more due to your higher usage.

No, I don't work for PG&E, yes, I live in the bay area, and I do carefully read my utility bills and follow the news on this matter.
Hope this helps clear up misconceptions.




Smartmeter real purpose
By masimons on 11/17/2009 9:43:38 AM , Rating: 2
What ticks me off about them, the primary reason for smartmeters is to get rid of the meter reader, saving the provider money. But for San Diego, SDGE got a rate raise to PAY THEM for the new meters !
The second purpose is to eventually allow them to change rates to pay at different rates based on time of day.
Don't trust your bill now ? Just wait.




The Real Issue
By HappyOrange on 11/16/2009 4:10:51 PM , Rating: 2
1. I would think that with unemployment at what it is that we would want to preserve meter reader jobs.

2. This is just a distraction from the real issue, the future conservation of energy that will be forced onto us when oil is too expensive for our country. We should be making energy so cheap that measuring its use is a waste of time. We need more nukes people, many more nukes. We can always decommission them when solar and wind provide all the power we want. But please stop dreaming if you think alternative energy can provide the power we need to charge up a nation of plug-in electric cars anytime in the next 100 years. Thinks of the future of the US and your children not being able to depend on being able to turn on a light, or worse yet the A/C during a heat wave. Oh, BTW, freebies ... nuclear reactors do not contribute greenhouse gases, and reactors provide lots of jobs.




RE: The Real Issue
By cmdrdredd on 11/16/09, Rating: -1
"If you can find a PS3 anywhere in North America that's been on shelves for more than five minutes, I'll give you 1,200 bucks for it." -- SCEA President Jack Tretton









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