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Boeing NewGen tanker  (Source: Boeing)
EADS will not submit a European only bid leaving Boeing as the sole bidder

The bidding process to replace the U.S. Air Force's aging fleet of tanker aircraft has been long and fraught with allegations of fraud and favoritism. The bidding process was won by Northrop Grumman in March of 2008, but an appeal by competitor Boeing ended up in the win being overturned.

The new RFP for the tanker contract was published in February 2010 and Northrop Grumman/EADS was fast to complain that the new rules strongly favored the smaller Boeing 767-based tanker. Northrop Grumman went so far at the time to threaten to leave the competition if the RFP wasn't substantially changed. Earlier this month Boeing unveiled its NewGen aircraft that it would be submitting for the tanker replacement program.

Northrop Grumman announced this week that it would in fact pull out of the competition – Northrop Grumman CEO Wes Bush issued a statement saying, "After a comprehensive analysis of the final RFP, Northrop Grumman has determined that it will not submit a bid to the Department of Defense for the KC-X program. We reached this conclusion based on the structure of the source selection methodology defined in the RFP, which clearly favors Boeing's smaller refueling tanker and does not provide adequate value recognition of the added capability of a larger tanker, precluding us from any competitive opportunity."

Bush went on to say, "We have decided that Northrop Grumman will not protest. While we feel we have substantial grounds to support a GAO or court ruling to overturn this revised source selection process, America's service men and women have been forced to wait too long for new tankers. We feel a deep responsibility to their safety and to their ability to fulfill the missions our nation calls upon them to perform. Taking actions that would further delay the introduction of this urgent capability would also not be acting responsibly. "

DefenseNews reports that politicians supporting Northrop in Washington were quick to condemn the Pentagon for effectively eliminating Northrop from the bidding process with the final RFP for tanker aircraft. Senator Richard Shelby from Alabama said, "The Air Force had a chance to deliver the most capable tanker possible to our war fighters and blew it. This so-called competition was not structured to produce the best outcome for our men and women in uniform; it was structured to produce the best outcome for Boeing."

According to
Reuters, EADS CEO Louis Gallois added, "We have no chance to win in the competition in these conditions." Airbus CEO Tom Enders said, "I leave the political assessment to others. For me it is clear, however, that under the current conditions a bid makes no economic sense for Airbus."

With no formal protest from Northrop Grumman/EADS Boeing will be the only bidder for the lucrative contract expected to be worth $35 billion over the term. Bush said, "We recognize that our decision likely creates a sole-source outcome for Boeing. We call on the Department to keep in mind the economic conclusions of the prior round of bidding as it takes actions to protect the taxpayer when defining the sole-source procurement contract. In the previous round, the Air Force, through a rigorous assessment of our proposal, determined that it would pay a unit flyaway cost of approximately $184 million per tanker for the first 68 tankers, including the non-recurring development costs. With the Department's decision to procure a much smaller, less capable design, the taxpayer should certainly expect the bill to be much less."

It's clear that Bush feels that the less capable aircraft should not cost taxpayers as much as they would have paid for the more capable Northrop Grumman/EADS offering. Bush also pointed out that a win by Boeing with a less capable aircraft would mean that for the first time U.S. allies would have a more capable tanker aircraft than the U.S. Air Force.



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Does it matter?
By drycrust3 on 3/9/2010 2:00:10 PM , Rating: 1
I'm not an American, so what I've got to say is totally irrelevant, but my feelings about this whole saga is that either the US debt will become important, thus forcing the military to cut back on spending on all expensive projects including this one, or it won't be important and the Boeing plane will be built and deployed.
The Northrop plane's attributes will never get to be considered again, except by historians. Regardless of whether it would have been superior or not, if the Boeing plane isn't up to the job, then either tactics will be changed to suit it, or the plane will be modified so it is more capable, but the Northrop plane will never be seen.
Historically speaking, the standard practice in the 20th Century across many countries seems to be once some piece of military equipment enters service it is very hard for it to be removed: the manufacturer will upgrade if they have to, they may even make use of a competitors or opponents components if they really have to, but until cost drives it out or technology makes it obsolete or soldiers using it in battle die in large numbers then it stays in service.
Whether this is good for the future of the US Military or not is another matter. I don't think it is, but, as the title says, does it matter?




RE: Does it matter?
By Calin on 3/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Does it matter?
By lightfoot on 3/9/2010 3:21:33 PM , Rating: 5
That is core to this debate. The Airforce asked for a product that met specific critera. Boeing designed an aircraft that met those critera. Northrop/EADS wanted to sell an off-the-shelf product so they asked the Airforce to change its criteria. The Airforce did, and Northrop/EADS won. Boeing protested, as they should have, after having sunk so much effort into a new design. The GAO agreed with Boeing, and told the airforce to go back and start over. The Airforce released the new criteria, and lo-and-behold they were very similar to the original criteria and thus Boeing's design was the closest fit. Northrop decides to drop out because they can't use their off-the-shelf existing product, and would be forced to design something new (just like Boeing already did.)

Northrop was lazy, that is why they lost. They have a very capable tanker, but it did not meet the Airforce's requirements.


RE: Does it matter?
By Sahrin on 3/9/2010 6:08:37 PM , Rating: 2
Based on what you said, it sounds like NG/Airbus's product is superior. Is this correct?

If the NG/Airbus plane is better, why are we having this conversation?

You offer "off the shelf" as a perjorative; usually "off-the-shelf" is often cheaper as well - is this correct?

If the NG/Airbus plane is cheaper, why are we having this conversation?

(I'm genuinely asking these questions, I don't have any idea about the answers as you make a valid point. My thought process on the whole thing was that EADS/Airbus was/were going to give the US taxpayer a price break in order to break into the US government market. By all means, more competition among defense contractors is a good thing. It sounds like it is more complicated than this, so I'm just asking).


RE: Does it matter?
By SPOOFE on 3/9/2010 7:13:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Based on what you said, it sounds like NG/Airbus's product is superior. Is this correct?

It has its pros and cons. As has been mentioned in other parts of this thread, the larger design would mean a lot of expansions to existing support infrastructure.


RE: Does it matter?
By HrilL on 3/9/2010 7:15:41 PM , Rating: 3
From what I have read the Boeing design has some advantages and also some disadvantages. Boeing's design would be able to discharge fuel at a faster rate and they were also redesigning the way the 2 air craft connect. While the Airbus design could hold more overall fuel.

Even the Airbus CEO said it would be cheaper to go with the Boeing design from what I understood. Plus I'd rather my tax money go solely to an American company even if Airbus was going to build them here the profit would no be kept here.

I'd rather we stimulate our local economy even if it cost more than it does to stimulate one off seas. This will help us as a country a lot more in the long run.


RE: Does it matter?
By lightfoot on 3/11/2010 12:29:29 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
You offer "off the shelf" as a perjorative; usually "off-the-shelf" is often cheaper as well - is this correct?

You don't use a Request For Proposals to buy an off the shelf product. For that you would use a Request For Quote.

Request For Proposals are used when you need to contract out a job to create a product that meets specific business needs that is not already available on the market.

If you were to walk into a Ford dealership looking for a compact car that seats 4 you would not buy a F-150 no matter how good of an offer the dealer made you. It simply does not meet your requirements.


RE: Does it matter?
By cheetah2k on 3/9/2010 9:08:02 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
The Airforce asked for a product that met specific critera. Boeing designed an aircraft that met those critera. Northrop/EADS wanted to sell an off-the-shelf product so they asked the Airforce to change its criteria. The Airforce did, and Northrop/EADS won


It seems to me that the Airforce didn't have a clue as to what they wanted in the first place. The original scope was either flawed, or the Airforce mislead both tendering parties by making changes to it.

quote:
Northrop was lazy, that is why they lost. They have a very capable tanker, but it did not meet the Airforce's requirements.


I disagree that Northrop was lazy. If the scope was able to be changed during the tender period (isnt this called collusion?), then either someone got a free trip to Thailand with all the blows n beers, or this is poor project management on the part of the Airforce.

While I don't specifically know all of the requirements, but if someone can give me a more for less $$, then I know what I would be buying!


RE: Does it matter?
By FITCamaro on 3/9/2010 11:45:09 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It seems to me that the Airforce didn't have a clue as to what they wanted in the first place. The original scope was either flawed, or the Airforce mislead both tendering parties by making changes to it.


No the first time around Northrop/EADS did the same thing as this time around. Threaten to pull out of the competition if the RFP wasn't changed to give them a better shot of winning. The Air Force changed it last time. This time they didn't.

Basically it went from favoring Boeing (original RFP), to favoring EADS (original modified RFP), to Boeing (new RFP similar to original).

They don't want a larger tanker. They want a smaller, cheaper one. As others have said, there are benefits and downsides to each plane. But what they originally and this time around wanted was a plane like what Boeing is offering. Now Northrop/EADS could have designed a plane, as Boeing did, that met those requirements. But they chose not to and instead offer what they had.


By KingConker on 3/9/2010 12:30:59 PM , Rating: 2
The European Commission said in a statement that "it would be extremely concerned if it were to emerge that the terms of tender were such as to inhibit open competition for the contract".

You see I quite like EADS, but I also quite like Boeing - but which is better at filling her up!?! There's only one way to find out - FIGHT!?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Np6gyUb0E7o




By Strunf on 3/10/2010 7:58:18 AM , Rating: 2
Open competition? There's no such thing, the US Army only buys military equipment from American or UK companies, the EADS only offered something cause they were doing it with Northrop Grumman had Northrop not want to the EADS wouldn't even be allowed to present by itself.


By bespoke on 3/9/2010 12:52:09 PM , Rating: 3
Sheesh!




Please help me out here...
By Landiepete on 3/10/2010 7:20:43 AM , Rating: 2
But IIRC, the original Bo(e)ing proposal was refused because they were not able to validate the design of their refueling boom, as required by the Air Force's proof-of-concept.
Again, IIRC, (H)Airbus had a working boom, and Bo(e)ing had a drawing of one that maybe worked, maybe not.
I don't seem to remember the plane itself having anything to do with it.




Good riddance.
By MrBlastman on 3/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Good riddance.
By DigitalFreak on 3/9/2010 11:47:04 AM , Rating: 4
Hmm.. Northrop could provide a more capable, arguably better aircraft than Boeing for the same cost. Gotta love politics.

Now we just sit back and wait for the inevitable Boeing cost overruns.


RE: Good riddance.
By dragonbif on 3/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Good riddance.
By Amiga500 on 3/9/2010 12:25:00 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I have not seen any test tankers from Boeing or Northrop.


Google A330 MRTT. :-)


RE: Good riddance.
By dragonbif on 3/9/2010 5:07:54 PM , Rating: 2
Your right my bad, I was thinking of the A-380 and A-400 for some reason. I was reading about those 2 a few days ago. They put the Boeing 767 in the article but not the A-330.


RE: Good riddance.
By Hammer1024 on 3/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Good riddance.
By SPOOFE on 3/9/2010 1:48:20 PM , Rating: 2
So, to summarize (and correct me if I'm getting something wrong), but:

-The original specifications didn't call for a bunch of the extras or "brownie point" items Northrop included, and stated such extras wouldn't count as positives for winning the bid.

-Northrop "won" the bid by virtue of the extras that the AF said wouldn't count.

-Boeing called shenanigans on awarded the bid based on the extras that weren't supposed to count.

-The AF alters their specs to say that a bunch of extras wouldn't count.

So it sounds like Northrop was expecting to win based on criteria not outlined in the RFP, and now they're upset because going the extra mile didn't win them a contract. Does that sound about right?


RE: Good riddance.
By Keeir on 3/9/2010 2:01:48 PM , Rating: 4
Wrong

1. The original RFP (Round #2) asked for lots of Brownie Points and no credit for additional offload of Fuel.

Air Force graded based on Offload/Dollar. Decided Brownie points don't matter.

2. "Northrop "won" the bid by virtue of the extras that the AF said wouldn't count."

No... GAO determined that Northrop "won" by virtue of the Air Force not following its own procurement rules. The NG/EADS bid did not meet several basic criteria and was evaluated in a manner inconsistent with the RFP and US Government Aquistion process.

http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/311344.htm

3. "The AF alters their specs to say that a bunch of extras wouldn't count."

No, the AF decided to clearly outline what it wants and doesn't want down to a point system even for Fuel Offload. The New RFP actually asks for -more- extra mile stuff the the first RFP, it just clearly shows what credit goes where.

"So it sounds like Northrop was expecting to win based on criteria not outlined in the RFP, and now they're upset because going the extra mile didn't win them a contract."

Hrm... "extra mile" is not really accurate. NG/EADS have a plane to base a Tanker on, the A330. To keep costs as low as possible, they want to use the A330, regardless if its the best fit size for the project. They want extra credit because they don't have another aircraft to base a Tanker on... and the A330 is so much larger than a KC-135 or 767 that it obviously cost significantly more to use and operate.

The basic A330-200 is 33% larger than a B767-200 (roughly based on Volume and Mass).

Yet, the Airforces own simulations (determined by the GAO to have terms favoring NG/EADS) only found the A330 tanker to be only 6% more effective than a B767 Tanker.


RE: Good riddance.
By SPOOFE on 3/9/2010 7:22:57 PM , Rating: 2
Thank you, I appreciate the information.


RE: Good riddance.
By Amiga500 on 3/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Good riddance.
By jarman on 3/9/2010 2:22:56 PM , Rating: 2
Um... not quite. Please, go work a proposal effort for a "real" set of explicitly defined customer requirements. Then, come back and tell us how your "arguably better" product that was out of scope and cost of the original solicitor's IFB, was received.


RE: Good riddance.
By knutjb on 3/11/2010 9:38:11 AM , Rating: 2
Your analysis is based on one has bigger numbers than the other is the sole determining factor is wrong. That is a false way of looking at it. The EADS offering is as big as a KC10 but with 1/3 less capacity.

The AF needed a smaller aircraft not a bigger one. When the KC10 came online in the late 80s they discovered it was less efficient for most refueling tasks than the KC135R, a smaller aircraft. Its about how it is used that determines the need, not the size alone.

Also the Naval personnel involved last time who had Northrup connections are not this time. They didn't understand how refuelers worked in day to day ops. Several smaller refuelers ARE more efficient than one big one.

BTW Boeing built a 747 tanker many years ago but it was deemed way to big. And the Italians are buying a 767 based tanker along with the Japanese, yes I know it has some issues that is very common with the first aircraft of the line, it would be the same for EADS. Structural issues pop up because of the slightly different loading on the airframe.


RE: Good riddance.
By Amiga500 on 3/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Good riddance.
By ralniv on 3/9/2010 1:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
Discussions of jobs always focus on manufacturing jobs. What about high paying technical jobs? These are the jobs that will help keep America near the forefront of technology. A Boeing win keeps mfg (i.e. aircraft integration; not necessarily parts) and engineering jobs in the US. A NGC/EADS win would have lead to mfg work in the US, but the engineering would probably be done abroad.


RE: Good riddance.
By Amiga500 on 3/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Good riddance.
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 2:21:49 PM , Rating: 2
"95% of the (design) engineering work on the A330 MRTT is already done. Unlike the Boeing option, which is in its infancy in comparison."

That seems to prove the opposite point of what you intended. The Boeing proposal will therefore lead to more high-paid engineering jobs in the US.


RE: Good riddance.
By Amiga500 on 3/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Good riddance.
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 3:35:54 PM , Rating: 2
"Your much smarter than your posts - quit believing the BS that Boeing = America and Airbus = Europe."

I never said anything remotely resembling this. Still, its inescapable that the Boeing project is (slightly) more 'American' than a NG/Airbus partnership. However, that's all besides the point.

Facts are facts. Nothing is preventing NG/EADS from bidding on the project except themselves. The Air Force has a set of requirements; all they need to do to win the bid is meet or beat them, at a cost equal or lower to Boeing's. They're pulling out simply because their existing airframe isn't a good fit for the project as it stands now, and they don't wish to design a new one. End of story.


RE: Good riddance.
By ralniv on 3/9/2010 3:40:15 PM , Rating: 2
If you want to credit EADS with development work on the A330 MRTT (none have been delivered to my knowledge), then it would be fair to credit Boeing with their development of the KC-767 for foreign air forces. Boeing has already delivered multiple KC-767's.


RE: Good riddance.
By bbomb on 3/9/10, Rating: 0
RE: Good riddance.
By MrBlastman on 3/9/2010 12:13:37 PM , Rating: 1
Boeing will never replace Lockheed Martin. I am not that worried about this decision. Airbus planes have been having problems as of late and they are the last place we need to be looking to procure valuable military aircraft from. We are first world, not second or third world. WE sell our technology overseas. It is better to produce the parts in-country rather than have to rely on outsourcing the parts elsewhere.

Just take a look at Iran. They have quite a bit of shiny F-14's that Reagan sold them. It is too bad though, really, as Iran can't maintain them due to us producing the parts. Similar concept with the tankers.

Want to know the best part of this decision? The Pentagon could still tell Boeing to go back to the drawing board and make improvements where needed. At least, I hope they will. The military learned a lot from the M2 Bradley fiasco I hope.


RE: Good riddance.
By Amiga500 on 3/9/2010 12:30:02 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
It is better to produce the parts in-country rather than have to rely on outsourcing the parts elsewhere.


You mean an aircraft with American engines, using American avonics, with an American refuel boom and American probe & drogue tanks and ancillaries, oh and assembled in America?

Yes... as I said earlier... you know it inside out.


RE: Good riddance.
By cocoman on 3/9/2010 12:45:22 PM , Rating: 2
I don´t think you know much about Boeing or Airbus. Both of them outsource HUGE amounts of work out of America and Europe.


RE: Good riddance.
By Hammer1024 on 3/9/2010 1:13:34 PM , Rating: 4
Just take a look at Iran. They have quite a bit of shiny F-14's that Reagan sold them . It is too bad though, really, as Iran can't maintain them due to us producing the parts. Similar concept with the tankers.

Uhmm... Yeah. You need a history lesson. Prior administrations sold F-14's to the Shau of Iran in the 1970's; I cannot remember if if it was Nixon, Ford or Carter, but it was most definitely NOT Reagan.

How do I know that you ask... Well a funny thing happened on the way to the revolution...
When the Shau was overthrown, the fighters were about to become operational, but they still needed some work done by the U.S. technical staff in place. Seeing the winds of change coming they removed a particular PWA from the electronics package which left the vehicles unable to fly. They left the country the next day with the boards.


RE: Good riddance.
By MrBlastman on 3/9/2010 1:20:10 PM , Rating: 2
I stand corrected. It was Carter or Ford as it happened in 1976.


RE: Good riddance.
By Belard on 3/9/2010 3:05:21 PM , Rating: 2
Doesn't really matter. The USA has been doing business in the middle east for decades. The deal to buy the F14s might have happened in 1970. The USA sells military hardware to pretty much anyone. South Korea, Japan, Germany, iran and iraq, Israel etc.

Lets see... who sold weapons to Iraq (think 80s) and then theres the Iran-contra weapons deal.

Iran has aircraft carriers? The F14 was designed for carriers, thats why its tough. But that doesn't make it a good non-carrier fighter.


RE: Good riddance.
By Iaiken on 3/9/2010 12:07:15 PM , Rating: 1
Welcome to Lawlville, Retardistan...

Keeping it in America? Seriously? You should check again on where most Boeing parts are sourced with specific regard electronics. It's pretty much unavoidable at this point as international supply avenues become more and more integrated. A significant portion of the design and development of the new 747 and 767 flight decks was done in Winnipeg, Manitoba here in Canada. Landing gear assemblies were designed by BF Goodrich in Oakville, Ontario. I helped work on the initial development of the production line controllers.

Even Russian planes have chips in them that were designed by Texas Instruments in the USA and made in China.

It's simply an unavoidable fact of life that a goodly portion of just about anything is manufactured or designed outside the US.


RE: Good riddance.
By MrBlastman on 3/9/2010 12:19:34 PM , Rating: 2
The Canadians are on our continent. I'm comfortable with that. Our Canuck neighbors are good to have next to us.

Oh, and you obviously mentioned the "Team America" reference. ;)

quote:
It's simply an unavoidable fact of life that a goodly portion of just about anything is manufactured or designed outside the US.


And with this, you are correct. A great portion is manufactured elsewhere. By doing so, look at where it has lead us. Our economy has weakened (though has not been destroyed) and the Chinese/Asian economies have flourished due to all of our money being fed to them to produce goods and services for us.

If I were a betting man, I'd say the tables will flip-flop in the next thirty to fifty years and Americans will be employed by foreign companies producing goods for them. I'm fine with global commerce. I'm okay with goods being produced elsewhere, but, at some point you have to decide whether we'd be better served or not with those goods being produced here (or on our continent).


RE: Good riddance.
By ralniv on 3/9/2010 8:15:07 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
It's simply an unavoidable fact of life that a goodly portion of just about anything is manufactured or designed outside the US.


This is an accurate statement for many types of products (e.g. consumer electronics), but it doesn't apply as well in aerospace. Most US aerospace design work is done in the US. The platforms (aircraft or spacecraft) are assembled in the US. Most major subsystems (e.g. avionics, environmental controls) are designed and assembled in the US. Outsourcing is largely limited to the component level.

This is a fact that weighs into award decisions on large defense contracts. It stems from most people wanting their tax dollars to create domestic jobs. This part isn't rocket science.


RE: Good riddance.
By FITCamaro on 3/9/2010 11:47:51 PM , Rating: 1
Just please get rid of union employees at Boeing.


Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By Reclaimer77 on 3/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By Lonyo on 3/9/2010 11:58:30 AM , Rating: 1
Because manning up and not throwing a hissy fit means they are going away mad?
They won, Boeing threw a bitch fit, the rules got changed to favour Boeing (according to at least one US senator), and Airbus walked away rather than causing more hassle and making the whole thing a bigger mess.

Be glad that they have walked away, rather than causing the process to go on for even more time, probably costing more money, before anything even starts being produced.


RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By MrBlastman on 3/9/2010 12:20:46 PM , Rating: 3
The French have been retreating for centuries. This is nothing new. ;)


RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By ekv on 3/10/2010 3:36:29 AM , Rating: 2
D'oh!


RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By Keeir on 3/9/2010 1:48:27 PM , Rating: 3
#1. In Tanker Round #2, Both NG/EADS and Boeing threatened multiple times to walk away from bidding if changes were not made to the Round #2 RFP

#2. The GAO, an independent government body whoose members are appointed/hired by various adminstrations determined that the Air Force did not award the contract to NG/EADS based on the criteria they set form in the Round #2 RFP. Based on the GAO's report, Congress recommended the Pentagon to rebid the Tanker program. IF the GAO had determined the Air Force had followed thier own RFP guidelines, the contract would have been awarded to NG/EADS

http://www.gao.gov/decisions/bidpro/311344.htm

Some highlights

"In sum, we conclude that the record does not demonstrate that the agency reasonably determined that Northrop Grumman’s proposed aircraft would be able to refuel all current Air Force fixed-wing tanker-compatible receiver aircraft in accordance with current Air Force procedures as was required by this KPP No. 1 threshold."

and

"We also find a reasonable possibility that Boeing was prejudiced by the Air Force’s misleading and unequal discussions, given the greater weight that KPPs were supposed to receive in the agency’s evaluation. In this regard, if Boeing had been evaluated as fully satisfying this KPP objective, which was the only KPP objective in the operations utility area, it could well have been considered to be superior in this area to Northrop Grumman, which was evaluated as only partially satisfying this KPP objective."

and

"In sum, the Air Force improperly accepted Northrop Grumman’s proposal, where that proposal clearly took exception to a material solicitation requirement"

#3. NG/EADS clearly hopes that this will cause Congress to toss the current RFP.


RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By jarman on 3/9/2010 2:14:20 PM , Rating: 3
Don't waste your time. To some people, the truth is irrelevant.


RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By SPOOFE on 3/9/2010 7:18:24 PM , Rating: 2
But to some others (like me), the truth is very relevant but unknown, and so I appreciate the information being dispensed in this thread.


RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By karielash on 3/10/2010 12:48:03 AM , Rating: 1

I think your confused, Bid 1 got kicked due to Boeing lying and cheating and attempting to screw the tax payer, result, a Boeing Exec and an Air force (colonel?) get thrown in jail, the bid was then reissued.

so

Bid 1. - Boeing try to screw taxpayer - get caught, bidding restarted.

Bid 2. Someone else gets to screw the taxpayer... Boeing cries like a bitch.... bidding restarted.

Bid 3. Right back to the start... Boeing now have the sole playing field again and everyone is confident that they will be honest upstanding citizens and not screw the tax payer.... I have some doubts.


By FITCamaro on 3/10/2010 7:15:32 AM , Rating: 2
Boeing makes a great product. Their problem is that they can be expensive because of the union labor that builds their planes as well as other things. They have upset a lot of people in Congress and the air force. But at this point the planes need to get built.

As to people who say parts for military aircraft come from China or other Asian countries, if a defense contractor was found to be illegally producing export controlled systems overseas, those in charge would be thrown in jail. Now might an off the shelf microchip be used in one of those systems? Yes. But the actual systems themselves are built here or purchased from a close ally. China and Taiwan are not such allies.


RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By rudolphna on 3/10/2010 8:19:29 AM , Rating: 2
Yes because a FOREIGN based maufacturer is less likely to screw people who DON'T pay taxes to the country they reside in.


RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By karielash on 3/10/2010 5:18:50 PM , Rating: 1

Last time I checked the country from overseas didn't have one of their executives thrown in jail on federal corruption charges relating to how they paid an Air Force Officer to amend the bid request to favour their aircraft (the air force officer was thrown in jail to).

Simple fact is Boeing got caught not just trying to screw the Taxpayer but trying to take them home and screw their wives as well.

THAT is why the bid was put out for tender yet again. If Boeing had not been as corrupt as they are this issue would be a non-issue and the US Services would have a modern tanker in the air servicing their needs at this moment.

The degree to which Boeing attempted to screw the tax payer was beyond belief, the fact that more of their executives did not end up in jail is a testament to the financial support they provide to Politicians.


RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By porkpie on 3/10/2010 7:41:43 PM , Rating: 2
"Simple fact is Boeing got caught not just trying to screw the Taxpayer "

I hate to step into your rabid anti-Americanism, but please don't spread mistruths. The Air Force changed the original RFP in an attempt to coax a second bidder into the process. An independent GAO investigation found the Air Force at fault, and sided with Boeing.

"Last time I checked the country from overseas didn't have one of their executives thrown in jail"

quote:
EADS corruption must not be played down.

The scale of [insider trading] – ten million shares allegedly sold by more than a thousand company insiders for a collective profit of more than €90 million (£62 million) – suggests that insider dealing was not considered scandalous but standard practice....

The facts are beyond parody. The French regulator, the AMF, has informed the Parisian prosecuting authorities that some of the most senior figures in the company sold shares before news of the problems with the aircraft were made public
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/col...


By porkpie on 3/9/2010 1:50:23 PM , Rating: 2
"They won, Boeing threw a bitch fit, the rules got changed to favour Boeing "

Actually, what happened was Boeing submitted a bid, then the rules were changed to favor NG/EADS, they won, Boeing threw a fit, the GAO intervened and said the Air Force was out of line, and the rules were changed yet again.


By Reclaimer77 on 3/9/2010 1:58:45 PM , Rating: 1
lol you guys need to learn to take a joke. It was an obvious troll.


RE: Awww don't go away mad Airbus.
By mmatis on 3/9/2010 4:41:05 PM , Rating: 2
Boeing DID NOT get the rules changed in their favor. The GAO found that the AF had violated their RFP in the initial award by failing to rate the bids on the criteria they issued therein. The GAO said the decision would not be defensible in court, and the award was thrown out. The US Senator has his head up his friggin azz, as usual. The new RFP stipulates nine primary key performance parameters:

1) Air refueling capability 2) Fuel offload and range at least as great as the KC-135 3) Compliant Communication, Navigation, Surveillance/Air Traffic Management (CNS/ATM) equipment 4) Airlift capability 5) Ability to take on fuel while airborne 6) Sufficient force protection measures 7) Ability to network into the information available in the battle space 8) Survivability measures (defensive systems, Electro-Magnetic Pulse (EMP) hardening, chemical/biological protection, etc.) 9) Provisioning for a multi-point refueling system to support Navy and allied aircraft

Just what seems to be wrong with these requirements from your well-informed point of view? And why do you prefer to pay more, in direct costs and infrastructure, to buy the EADS offer instead? Do you REALLY expect the Head Nanny What's In Charge to increase the military's budget to pay for this? Or are you just one of the swill that doesn't give a damn what the requirements are but only want THEIR idol to win the competition?


68 wtf
By Shadowmaster625 on 3/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: 68 wtf
By drycrust3 on 3/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: 68 wtf
By FITCamaro on 3/9/2010 11:47:24 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
I can barely see a use for maybe one of these tankers


And that is why you're an idiot and not in charge.


The Epitome of Capitalization?
By Qi on 3/9/10, Rating: -1
RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By porkpie on 3/9/2010 4:26:26 PM , Rating: 1
Despite the fact your rant is wildly off topic, I'm going to debunk a few of your little myths.

quote:
Health care expenditure of the five biggest nations in Europe is lower than that of the United States, and infant mortality and life expectancy is still better in all these nations!"
Among first world nations, life expectancy is controlled far more by genetics and dietary/lifestyle choices than healthcare quality. In terms of survivability rates of cancer, heart surgery, and other major disease, the US leads the world by far. It's so good in fact, that Canada's Premier Danny Williams came to the US for his surgery, rather than risk his socialized medical care:

http://www.examiner.com/x-27580-St-Louis-Conservat...

I've posted many times before about wait times in Canada stretching up to 18 months for some types of specialists. I've never waited longer than 3 days here in the US.

As for the quality of health care in Britain, you might be interested in this story, about a boy who died of thirst in the hospital, because nurses were too busy to bring him water for 3 days:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1255858/Ne...

Or this 21-year old girl who lost all her teeth, because she couldn't get a dentist in their "free" system:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1169764/...

quote:
Military expenditure of the five biggests nations in Europe is also lower than that of the United States.
Sure. The US, through NATO, is picking up a majority of the defense costs of Europe. Does it surprise you that they therefore need to spend much less?


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By Qi on 3/9/2010 4:45:55 PM , Rating: 1
Yeah, you've indeed debunked my points about health care - which are based on official WHO reports - with some anecdotal reports from a dubious tabloid newspaper. *Sarcasm* That's about the same as me saying that the United States health care is crap because I saw Michael Moore's documentary 'Sicko'.

The military expenditure of the European Union as a whole is 2nd only to that of the United States. It's not necessary to spend more, especially since the cold war is over and since the development of nuclear weapons changed the rules of warfare completely. European nations have enough nuclear weapons to deter any threat.


By semiconshawn on 3/9/2010 7:10:07 PM , Rating: 2
So the fact that the EU has nuclear weapons is enough to deter any threat? That is the dumbest crap ive ever heard. Islamic extremeist nut jobs dont care if you have 10 billion warheads they will gladly take your 10 billion to deliver their one. Its expensive to keep/delay terrorists from getting nuclear bombs and we are footing the bill with cash and blood. Next time just say thank you and dont worry about how much it costs us.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By kyp275 on 3/9/2010 10:16:51 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
European nations have enough nuclear weapons to deter any threat.


That's about as r******d of a statement as they come. Nuclear arsenal only acts as a deterrent against other nuclear attacks, not any sort of conventional attack. Unless of course your idea of defending your country is to threaten world annihilation, or at the very least the complete annihilation of your own country.

Genius strategy, I wonder why nobody ever thought of that one before :rolleyes:


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By Qi on 3/10/2010 8:16:04 AM , Rating: 3
Yet another ironic statement. The United States is the only nation ever to have used nuclear weapons against another nation. Japan didn't have nuclear weapons, and Hiroshima and Nagasaki were still nuked by the United States and completely eradicated.

And being able to deter a certain military threat doesn't mean that you actually have to use nuclear weapons, merely having nuclear weapons can deter a threat. It would be foolish to attack a nation with nuclear weapons, since you risk annihilation yourself.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By porkpie on 3/10/2010 7:46:34 PM , Rating: 2
"Japan didn't have nuclear weapons"

So? In 1945, nuclear weapons did not exist as a separate category in geopolitique. There was no concept of escalation, or the WMD divide. Fat Man and Little Boy were merely bigger versions of the bombs we'd already been dropping on Japan.

"Hiroshima and Nagasaki were...completely eradicated."

If they were completely eradicated, why are both cities still in existence and thriving today?

" It would be foolish to attack a nation with nuclear weapons"

If that's true, why have so many nations attacked US forces since we acquired nuclear weapons? Your theory is tissue paper, not borne out by reality.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By Qi on 3/12/2010 8:25:00 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
So? In 1945, nuclear weapons did not exist as a separate category in geopolitique. There was no concept of escalation, or the WMD divide. Fat Man and Little Boy were merely bigger versions of the bombs we'd already been dropping on Japan.
Selective quoting again? The previous poster was suggesting that nuclear weapons act only as a deterrent against a nuclear threat, which I've shown is wrong, since the conventional threat that Japan represented at the time was deterred by using them.

quote:
If they were completely eradicated, why are both cities still in existence and thriving today?
And now you're arguing semantics. These cities were completely devastated with casualties in the hundreds of thousands. Moreover, nearly the entire infrastructure was destroyed and many homes lost. Not to speak of the radiation after effects, which resulted in hundreds, if not thousands, of cancer and radiation sickness cases.

quote:
If that's true, why have so many nations attacked US forces since we acquired nuclear weapons? Your theory is tissue paper, not borne out by reality.
Firstly, an attack on US military personnel is not necessarily the same as an attack on the United States. Secondly, what I spoke about was an attack of an entire nation, not just a few individuals; selective quoting again. And thirdly, if, say, Russia attacks the United States, and the result is war, the risk of mutual destruction is indeed a possibility.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By porkpie on 3/12/2010 11:28:34 AM , Rating: 2
"nuclear weapons act only as a deterrent against a nuclear threat, which I've shown is wrong, since the conventional threat that Japan represented at the time"

Please try to think clearly. At the time of WW2, nuclear weapons (nor WMD in general) were not a separate category of strategic weapons. Times change. Furthermore, claiming they "deterred Japan from attacking us" is equally ludicrous, since Japan had already stopped launching offensives before the first bomb went off.

"And now you're arguing semantics."

No, I'm asking the OP to not exaggerate. The city centers were devastated, but the cities themselves were far from "eradicated". Words have specific meanings. Redefining them as you wish to fit your argument is poor policy.

"an attack on US military personnel is not necessarily the same as an attack on the United States."

Legally, morally, and ethically it is.

"what I spoke about was an attack of an entire nation, not just a few individuals"

That's what I'm speaking about also. State-sponsored, large-scale attacks on US military forces.

Did you miss the entire Korean and Vietnam wars? Why didn't our nuclear weapons deter conventional attacks on us then?


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By porkpie on 3/10/2010 12:02:30 AM , Rating: 2
"..some anecdotal reports from a dubious tabloid newspaper"

Ah, you don't like the Daily Mail? How about some reports from the Telegraph, then:

quote:
Up to 1,200 patients died from poor care at Stafford:

Patients, most of whom were treated at the trust’s main hospital in Stafford, were “robbed of their dignity”, left in soiled bedclothes, unwashed and in states of undress in full view of others, it found.
Families of patients had to clean lavatories and public areas themselves, while food and drinks were left out of reach and, it was alleged, patients drank out of vases.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/73106...

Or this one:
quote:
Cruel and neglectful' care of one million NHS patients exposed
One million NHS patients have been the victims of appalling care in hospitals across Britain , according to a major report released today.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/60926...

Or how about the Times Online, if you don't like any of the other two papers:

quote:
A three-year-old girl awaiting heart surgery has had her operation cancelled three times this month because of a shortage of beds.

Ella Cotterell was due to have aorta-widening surgery on Monday at the Children’s Hospital, Bristol. But 48 hours beforehand, the operation was cancelled for the third time as all 15 beds in the intensive care unit were occupied, her parents said.

A hospital spokesman said that procedures would be reviewed, but the case highlights a growing problem of cancelled operations in the NHS.

More than 57,000 surgeries were postponed for non-clinical reasons, including a lack of beds, last year
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/health/ar...

Or this one, from the Guardian:

quote:
Children being failed by health system, says head of watchdog...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/mar/21/heal...

Or this one, also from the Guardian:

quote:
Disabled children wait up to two years for wheelchairs...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2009/mar/04/whee...


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By Qi on 3/10/10, Rating: 0
RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By porkpie on 3/10/2010 10:51:55 AM , Rating: 2
" more anecdotal reports"

Are you intentionally playing dumb? Investigative reports from every newpaper in the nation, backed up with official reports by government bodies and eyewitness testimony? You cannot brush them off because you don't like the facts.

"Using Google, it's incredibly easy to find similar reports for the United States."

Then do so. From reputable newspapers. Find us stories about millions of people being mistreated in hospitals, about people waiting in line YEARS for necessary surgery, about people dying from lack of care while already IN a hospital.

"And genetics don't count."

Lol, I think you skipped science past the third grade then.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By Qi on 3/10/2010 1:10:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Are you intentionally playing dumb? Investigative reports from every newpaper in the nation, backed up with official reports by government bodies and eyewitness testimony? You cannot brush them off because you don't like the facts.
Instead of linking to these, sometimes highly suggestive, anecdotal reports, which are mostly incidents which happen in any nation, including the United States, link to credible scientific journals or organizations to make your point. If you can't do that, you've basically dismissed yourself as a discussion partner.

quote:
Then do so. From reputable newspapers. Find us stories about millions of people being mistreated in hospitals, about people waiting in line YEARS for necessary surgery, about people dying from lack of care while already IN a hospital.
As I've pointed out before, I could link to the Michael Moore documentary 'Sicko', but I'm not going to do that to make a point, since I realize how weak that would be. Instead of that, I'm giving you credible scientific facts from the World Health Organization. Which, by the way, you still haven't addressed.

quote:
Lol, I think you skipped science past the third grade then.
Unless you believe Europeans are somehow genetically superior to Americans, genetics don't count if we're talking about the average life expectancy of an entire nation. Sure, comparing two individuals it's entirely possible that one of these indivuals will live longer due to good genetics, but we're not comparing indivuals here, but entire nations.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By porkpie on 3/10/2010 7:52:44 PM , Rating: 2
As I suspected, when actually called on to back up your claims, you can't do so. O ask you again-- put up or shut up. Show us one credible source that details US citizens having to deal with medical rationing, months-long or even years-long wait times for critical procedures or diagnostic tests, or blatant widescale abuse of hospital patients -- events that are common in nations with socialized medical systems.

US healthcare is by far the best in the world. Period. Survival rates for any disease or procedure you can name are higher than they are in any other nation. The ratio of doctors per capita is the highest. Wait times are the lowest.

These are facts, not subject to dispute, and no amount of irrational anti-American hatred can change them.

It's no accident that people who can afford it come to the US for health care, from all over the world. Europe, on the other hand, is the proud author of the phrase "medical tourism"...a concept unheard of here in the US.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By Qi on 3/12/2010 8:30:37 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
As I suspected, when actually called on to back up your claims, you can't do so. O ask you again-- put up or shut up. Show us one credible source that details US citizens having to deal with medical rationing, months-long or even years-long wait times for critical procedures or diagnostic tests, or blatant widescale abuse of hospital patients -- events that are common in nations with socialized medical systems.
You're still not getting it. All these news articles you've linked to are irrelevant in a serious comparison between health care systems. If you really want to objectively compare health care between nations, only credible scientific reports count. And instead of telling me to back up my claims, read the WHO pages that I provided. Comparing the five biggest European nations with the United States, the European nations perform better:

-Life expectancy at birth is higher
-Healthy life expectancy at birth is higher
-Probability of dying under five is lower
-Probability of dying between 15 and 60 years is lower
-Total health care cost is lower in absolute and relative terms

But it's becoming clear now, I guess you are not interested in objective comparisons at all, since you've so far ignored the World Health Organization data, and since you've cherry picked some news articles to 'prove' your point. Apparently, for someone as blinded by patriotism as you, it's very hard to admit that European health care is better.


By karielash on 3/11/2010 6:23:48 AM , Rating: 2

You can pretty much ignore Porkpie, he's a moron.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By ekv on 3/10/2010 4:02:17 AM , Rating: 1
"European nations have enough nuclear weapons to deter any threat."

Really? Perhaps you've seen the T-shirt on Muslim youths that say "2030: and then we take over". Perhaps you read it as you ran away.

You think you can deter any threat? with your superior European higher critical-thinking? yet you can't do anything about the Muslim takeover. I hope you wake up. Real soon now. Or else enjoy Sharia law.

And don't even think it ... because calling me a Xenophobe is putting-your-head-in-the-sand stupid and wrong.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By Qi on 3/10/2010 9:00:59 AM , Rating: 2
The European Union has over 500 million citizens and 95% of the population is not muslim. Of the remaining 5% I'd wager that over 90% of these people have no anti-western sentiments; these people speak the language of the country they live in, have a job and are well integrated. That leaves a very small minority of people that potentially are a problem. Is a terrorist attack possible? Yes. Is Europe on the brink of a muslim takeover? No, that's an absurd statement to make. Stop watching Glenn Beck.

Oh, and by the way, before you say that muslims in Europe are a problem, look at your own country first. The biggest islamic terrorist attack ever, 9/11, took place on US soil.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By ekv on 3/10/2010 2:09:39 PM , Rating: 2
If EU has 500 million citizens ... then 50 million muslims makes 10% of the population.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe

Are you so cloistered that you haven't even seen the T-Shirt? Try venturing into that muslim enclave, near where you live I'd wager. I'm sure they're very friendly ... just be careful when you turn your back.

Btw, the muslim birthrate in comparison to the European birthrate is about 6 to 1. For every birth to the traditional European, a muslim "family" had 6. Suppose, just suppose, that there are 5 million muslim fathers. Then they procreate 6 kids. That'd be 30 million kids right there. Now you're at 50 + 30 = 80 million. The population is changing rather dramatically. And you don't even see it, do you?

It won't take long before there are Islamic Party politicians. I'd wager they'll want Sharia law for their communities. Next week, or perhaps the week after, they may want to apply Sharia law to the neighborhood across the street, since they are impacting the muslims. I'm sure you've heard of incrementalism.

I'd agree, not every muslim is a terrorist. Just that they all do nothing about the terrorists. The Ahmadi muslims do some things about it, but then they are castigated by the mainstream muslims. Of course, why blow up what they are going to take over anyway. Even Khaddafi said that.

"Stop watching Glenn Beck." I love Beck, though I work so I hardly get to see or hear him. If you think Beck is the problem you still have your head in the sand. Pull it out. Wake up. Trust me kid, read something enlightening like

While Europe Slept: How Radical Islam is Destroying the West from Within, by Bruce Bawer.

Londonistan, by Melanie Phillips

America Alone: The End of the World As We Know It, by Mark Steyn


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By Qi on 3/12/2010 9:10:46 AM , Rating: 2
With the ascension of yet more Eastern European states to the European Union, and possibly Iceland, the muslim population will likely decrease in relative terms in the near future, since these nations have small muslim communities. But you are right, in comparison with other Europeans, it's true that the muslim birthrate is indeed higher. If we look closely to these demographic statistics however, it's true mostly for the older generation of immigrants. The new generation of muslims, the muslims that are born in the European Union, are comparable to other Europeans in pretty much all aspects, including birthrate, and differ in only one thing: their faith.

And one thing that we really have to keep in mind as well, and something that I can't stress enough, is that the vast majority of these people are well integrated in society. They have friends, speak the language, have a job, have a home and so forth. Keeping these things in mind, it's bizarre to state that Europe is on the brink of a muslim takeover. As a European, watching shows like Glenn Beck is pure comedy. I'm not blaming Glenn Beck for uttering absolute nonsense, with a salary of $28 million I'm more than willing to do the same, I just find it hard to believe though that Americans actually believe what's being said.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By ekv on 3/18/2010 5:27:05 PM , Rating: 2
Again, the muslim population has a birth-rate of about 6. EU has a birth-rate that is below the critical 1.1 mark. It doesn't matter what the actual population numbers are right now, because at this current rate muslims will eventually take over. It is simple population mechanics.

EU is busy screwing around. Muslims are taking care of business.

To say that the new generation of muslims are integrated sounds just great. I certainly hope your wish is actually reality. However, forgive me if I don't rely solely on your pie-in-sky estimate. It doesn't even really count as anecdotal evidence. It's just your opinion. Cloistered opinion.

I wrote
quote:
Of course, why blow up what they are going to take over anyway.
This a statement that Khaddafi agrees with. Sure, why not integrate, why not learn the language you will use to rule.

It seems you're more concerned with comedy than with reality. Given the dire nature of the situation, I suppose I'd want to put my head in the sand as well. But that doesn't really solve anything does it? Of course, as a European you can't solve anything ... or can you? Wake up. Take a stand. You can do it.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By justjc on 3/13/2010 5:51:06 PM , Rating: 2
Where do you see that the 53 million live in the EU, your source seems to say otherwise ;-)

The only way to get to 53 million Muslims, in Europe, is to use the geographical term and add around 15 million Turks, 16 million Russian Muslims and 6 Million Muslims from other Eastern European countries to the estimated European Union number. The number of Muslims in the European Union is estimated at 16 million, it's even stated in your own source, so your calculations and thous conclusion is flawed.


RE: The Epitome of Capitalization?
By ekv on 3/18/2010 5:06:15 PM , Rating: 2
And Qi suggests that the EU is going to expand, hence using the geographical term is likely more accurate than not.

Actually trying to find actual statistics on the Muslim population in EU is not straight-forward. The best stat's I found are
http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=...
but of course that doesn't have a Muslim break-out.

I notice you don't have anything to add ... e.g. the source you use for your numbers?

Btw, the eurostat year-over-year population change suggests a growth of about 0.35%. If you're birth-rate ratio is under 1.1 then your society is in decline. According to my already posted references.


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