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2011 Ford Fiesta hatchback, North American  (Source: AutoBlog)

2011 Ford Fiesta sedan, North American  (Source: AutoBlog)

2011 Ford Fiesta, leather seat option  (Source: AutoBlog)
Well engineered and attractive, it appears that Ford has a winner on their hands with the Fiesta

Ford's European Fiesta has been a wild success, and is celebrated among auto enthusiasts.  Now following a surprise profit, Ford looks to continue its newfound success. 

With the 2011 Fiesta for North America, Ford's basic formula is the same -- take a car with attractive interior and exterior and heap on performance, a fuel economy that bests competitors, and loads of high-tech standard features.  The vehicle was previewed at the 2009 LA Auto Show.

Beginning with the exterior, the first thing you notice is how strikingly similar it is to the Euro Fiesta, despite the fact that it only has 60 percent of its parts in common with its Euro twin.  About the only changes to the exterior are the removal of the fog lights, which have been replaced with a strip of chrome-accented LED lamps, and the removal of Euro-style grill, which is replaced by a similar colored grill in the hatchback version and with a metal grill in the standard version.  Both alterations have drawn some minor criticism, as can be expected when one modifies a beloved design, but overall the response to the familiar exterior is strong.

Turning to the interior, the Fiesta can be had with optional leather seats.  Also, to suit American demands, leg room has been increased from the Euro version, along with the addition of a knee airbag.

The car is also packed with loads of consumer electronics.  It predictably features Ford's popular SYNC system (optional), powered by Microsoft.  It comes push button start, a 4-inch LCD display, and an MP3 player auxiliary port.  It is also the only car in its class to feature automatic climate control.  The car also features high-tech mirrors, standard, which have surface heating and turn signal indicators.  More typical fare -- a moon roof and power seats come as optional features.

In terms of power, the Fiesta's 1.6-liter four-cylinder with 119 horsepower and 109 ft.-lbs. of torque provides ample thrust to drive the light vehicle.  You can get it with one of two attractive transmissions -- a five-speed manual transmission or Ford's new six-speed PowerShift electronic dual clutch automatic transmission. 

Ford's PowerShift is reportedly 22 lb lighter and more compact that a typical six-speed and offers an 8-10 percent fuel economy savings versus a four-speed transmission.  The dual clutch transmission should be more than ready when the American Fiesta gets an Eco-Boost engine as it is over-engineered to currently handle up to 185 lb-ft of twist.

Ford is tweaking the suspension, but promises to retain the same "fun" factor as the Euro model.  Its chief objective is to minimize the harshness when riding over rough surfaces.  Ford also has slapped on Electronic Power Assisted Steering, also featured in the new Mustang.  Ford insists that its not overdoing it, and that the feature will be unobtrusive.

The fuel economy on the Fiesta, like that of the new 30 mpg Mustang, is another show-stopper for Ford.  It proves that gasoline engines can be fuel efficient, as it gets 40 mpg highway, over 3 mpg better than the closest competitors in its class.  It also gets 30 mpg city.

That outstanding fuel sipping doesn't come at the expense of safety, though.  The car is brimming with airbags, with side curtain airbags and lower bags to protect your hips, in addition to traditional front airbags.  It also features 55 percent high strength steel, including Boron steel-reinforced door crossbars and at the A-pillar to B-pillar.





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4 door Hatch
By Cheesew1z69 on 12/2/2009 10:32:52 AM , Rating: 2
Looks decent, could use more HP though.




RE: 4 door Hatch
By spread on 12/2/2009 10:37:22 AM , Rating: 5
You can have horsepower of fuel efficiency. Pick one.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Kurz on 12/2/2009 10:46:19 AM , Rating: 2
Look at the new Mustang you have both.
At lower Displacement.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By dagamer34 on 12/2/2009 11:33:19 AM , Rating: 5
At a higher cost.

Fast, good, cheap: pick any two.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 12:35:06 PM , Rating: 2
There's going to be an Ecoboost engine option for the Fiesta. Read the article. Depending on how light this car actually is, the Ecoboost version should have decent acceleration.

quote:
The dual clutch transmission should be more than ready when the American Fiesta gets an Eco-Boost engine as it is over-engineered to currently handle up to 185 lb-ft of twist.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By twhittet on 12/2/2009 2:29:21 PM , Rating: 2
At more cost. It may be worth it to some. The MPG numbers with EcoBoost would be interesting to see.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By teldar on 12/2/2009 3:17:37 PM , Rating: 2
It's supposed to be a 130hp, torque undisclosed version. I would imagine the torque would be in the 150-160 range. I don't see anything less than that making any sense. Don't remember where I saw the 130 HP version would go in the fiesta, but it's something that's been kicked around the interwebs for a while.

The first version, which has appeared this year in the Iosis-Max, Lincoln Concept C and Volvo S60 concepts, will be rated at 180 hp. Further versions will be available at 130 and 150 hp levels. The EcoBoost fours will also be paired up with the new PowerShift dual clutch gearbox. The EcoBoost and PowerShift will also be available here in the U.S. when the new Focus arrives for 2011.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 4:19:07 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
At more cost. It may be worth it to some. The MPG numbers with EcoBoost would be interesting to see.
I doubt it would be enough to matter BUT considering that market, even a couple hundred might be too much.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By walk2k on 12/2/09, Rating: -1
RE: 4 door Hatch
By IvanAndreevich on 12/2/2009 1:24:43 PM , Rating: 2
What kind of gear ratio is that? I doubt you can get that mpg going that fast unless you have a long ass last gear which isn't stock.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mcnabney on 12/2/2009 1:26:51 PM , Rating: 2
That CRX wasn't loaded with safety equipment and a reinforced steel cage. Getting a modern car that can seat five up to 40mpg is tough. As good as a Corolla or Civic, but should be more fun to drive.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 2:27:55 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
40mpg is good but not exactly mind blowing, for such a small underpowered car.
Your car isn't EPA rated to do 40 mpg. This car is. What mileage it achieves on an individual basis is irrelevant as there are TOO many variables to use personal experiences as a way to compare vehicles. The EPA uses standardized tests and methodologies. You do not.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Keeir on 12/2/2009 2:31:11 PM , Rating: 4
Well.. if the Fiesta gets 40 MPG US EPA POST-2008 HWY thats pretty dang good.

Your obviously not from US as the Honda Inegra did not exist here and thus was never offically EPA tested.

The 2002 Acura RSX, 2.0L with a 5 Speed Manual is an estimates 28 MPG on POST-2008 US EPA HWY. 40 MPG seems pretty dang good in comparison no? The higher horsepower model was sold with a 6 speed Manual and returned 26 MPG.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Cheesew1z69 on 12/2/2009 3:08:35 PM , Rating: 2
Acura Integra surely does exist in the US....


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Keeir on 12/2/2009 3:24:13 PM , Rating: 2
hrm.

There is no 2002 Honda Integra or 2002 Acura Integra in the United States. The 2002 Acura RSX is a rebadged Honda Integra I believe.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 5:13:17 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, the RSX was a Honda Integra rebadge for the most part.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Cheesew1z69 on 12/3/2009 2:27:35 PM , Rating: 2
No, not now, but there was a Acura Integra in previous years.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By twhittet on 12/2/2009 2:40:37 PM , Rating: 3
I know it's already been stated, but your car is NOT EPA rated anywhere near that, so your comparison is completely invalid. Why do people always compare EPA numbers with "This one time I ### MPG in my car"?!? They have nothing to do with each other. Welcome to 2009, Walk2k.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By dubyadubya on 12/2/2009 4:04:47 PM , Rating: 2
I bet your Honda does not meet 2011 emission spec's.
quote:
40mpg is good but not exactly mind blowing, for such a small underpowered car. A 20 year old Honda CRX HX could do it easily. My 2002 Honda Integra DC5 (2.0L VTEC, 226 bhp dyno-tested) can get 36 mpg on the highway with the A/C on and crusing at 75-80 mph. If I tried to hypermile it I'm sure I could pull 40mpg easily, with twice the horsepower of that Ford. But, that's a Honda engine for you. Welcome to 1989, Ford.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Reclaimer77 on 12/2/2009 4:07:49 PM , Rating: 2
Pretty stupid post. Unless your 20 year old CRX has all of today's mandated safety devices and emission devices, you have no idea what it would actually get today. A CRX today would weight drastically more than it did 20 years ago, not by choice but by law.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Reclaimer77 on 12/2/2009 4:12:08 PM , Rating: 2
Oh and 20 years ago we actually let scientists and experts determine what was in our gasoline, not freaking politicians.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Runiteshark on 12/2/2009 6:01:37 PM , Rating: 2
Normally, I'd agree completely. However, in this case you are a damn idiot.

For one, the range topping d16 that they put in there has 100hp roughly and around 100ft lbs of torque. The 2.4L ecoboost engine (I think its 2.4l) will have roughly 180 or more ftlbs of tq, while having fairly low HP since it has quite a long stroke in comparison to its bore.

If you do any engine swaps and leave it NA, its not comparable since it didn't originally come with that car.

Your Acura RSX with the K20a2 absolutely does not get 226hp stock, and I know because I used to have one. Furthermore, that engine gets horrible gas mileage if you try to do anything where power is involved.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By hashish2020 on 12/2/2009 6:05:26 PM , Rating: 2
And that Honda Integra would never get approved now because it is far too unsafe and emits far too many particulate and other pollution...not to mention the vast difference between real world and EPA numbers

Ford has been making better cars than Honda in Europe for years...and Europe cares more about mileage than we do


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Runiteshark on 12/2/2009 7:22:11 PM , Rating: 2
He said 2002 DC5. Its ricer speak for Acura RSX.

All the cool kids call their cars by the chassis code.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Omega215D on 12/2/2009 11:35:43 PM , Rating: 2
chassis codes are useful when searching for parts. Your specific model car might not be there a but a similar car using pretty much the same chassis might so you can most likely fit the part on there.

I do this a lot with my motorcycle. My bike isn't listed for some replacement parts so I look for the engine code and frame and it usually works. Granted it's a bike from 1984...

Besides what about geeks using CPU codenames in order to purchase one that has the best overclocks, heat output etc.?

I just say that because it sounds like you mock those who use codes and not all of us are "ricers."


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Runiteshark on 12/3/2009 12:01:28 AM , Rating: 3
While I do agree with you on that, the poster I was replying to seemed very uppity and self important just because his non-stock RSX got 36mpg (Which I absolutely don't believe) and somehow gets 226 to the wheels (almost 50 more hp then stock).

Obviously the guy is an idiot and is comparing apples to hand sanitizer.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By FITCamaro on 12/3/2009 12:29:36 AM , Rating: 1
Yeah its pretty fuckin annoying too.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/3/2009 12:42:40 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Yeah its pretty fuckin annoying too.
Actually, using the chassis code saves tons of confusion. Especially when you have a car that's been using the same name for many years. Example: I own a BMW Z4 (I don't actually). Ok, which one? Oh, a 2004. Hmmmm..when did BMW change body styles again??? If I say E89 Z4, then Bimmerphiles and other car nuts know exactly which car is being discussed. On Planet Honda, people switch pieces and parts between cars and chassis codes (and engine codes) are awesome in knowing exactly where that part came from. Besides, it's geeky. :)


RE: 4 door Hatch
By fcx56 on 12/4/2009 1:26:10 PM , Rating: 2
Very true, when I look for parts for my X5 it's easier to search E53 than by year as the body styles change slightly as time passes.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/09, Rating: 0
RE: 4 door Hatch
By piroroadkill on 12/2/2009 10:54:17 AM , Rating: 5
No.

Why is it that Americans think you need 300hp to get to the store?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Goty on 12/2/2009 11:07:12 AM , Rating: 4
Why is it that everyone else thinks the only thing we do with our cars is go to the store?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Crota on 12/2/2009 11:11:30 AM , Rating: 3
We also need it to pick up the kids from soccer practice and ballet lessons.

Seriously though, the car is small and light which means it doesn't need 200+ HP to get going. The Fiesta will not be towing your boat to the lake but it will get you around town and be a great car. As long as it is priced well, comparable to a Toyota Yaris, it should do very well in the American market place.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By nafhan on 12/2/2009 11:24:26 AM , Rating: 4
I spend time sitting in traffic!


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Goty on 12/2/2009 5:56:56 PM , Rating: 2
I agree, it doesn't need 200+ HP, but it doesn't have to be anemic, either. I drive a car that's probably a bit lighter than the Fiesta will be that has 110HP and the thing is a downright pain to drive around the city.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By misuspita on 12/6/2009 4:41:57 PM , Rating: 2
come on, I have one that has 109HP gasoline, ~1300Kg, and it's nowhere near "pain". Granted, it's not the fastest car out there, but in the city I wouldn't need more. Besides, have you ever drove 60-80 HP cars? That's pain!


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/09, Rating: -1
RE: 4 door Hatch
By psychobriggsy on 12/2/2009 12:22:01 PM , Rating: 5
Ford haven't cancelled all their other cars to just offer this one car.

Many families can get by with a small car (especially with city workers) for one partner and a larger car for the other (for holidays, towing) and renting a truck for the once-a-year requirement.

But "get by with" isn't "want", and if you drive a lot, you'll want a more luxurious, spacious vehicle, cost of running be damned.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By teldar on 12/2/2009 3:23:50 PM , Rating: 2
Precisely.
I've been waiting for this car to come out so I can get to work in something small and practical and efficient while my wife will get the Acura TSX wagon when it comes out this fall.

That way, I have a small vehicle that, in a pinch, can hold me, my wife, the bebe, the pig-dog (he'd have to be on the split folding seat-back/trunk, and an overnight bag for each of us; and my wife has a nicer, roomier, somewhat more luxurious car to travel back and forth to see the families.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By erple2 on 12/4/2009 9:04:03 AM , Rating: 2
Don't you start telling ME that I want a luxurious spacious vehicle, you over-regulating communist punk. I'm very happy driving long distances in my little Subaru Impreza. And I'm over 6' tall.

:)


RE: 4 door Hatch
By eyebeeemmpawn on 12/2/2009 1:16:32 PM , Rating: 5
Who said anything about restricting what you buy? Don't like the car? Don't buy it. I mean, are you seriously suggesting that this new fiesta needs more power?

How does the Ford revival of the Fiesta restrict what you choose as a vehicle?

Congratulations on having a job...how much of that 50-70 hours a week is spent trolling articles about cars you aren't interested in?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 2:30:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Who said anything about restricting what you buy?
How do you interpret the following comment?

quote:
Why is it that Americans think you need 300hp to get to the store?


Does this not imply a desire to restrict what one buys? But I'm curious what you think.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By piroroadkill on 12/3/2009 6:35:19 AM , Rating: 2
No, I do not desire to restrict what type of car people can buy, and if they want a fast car, that's fine, hell, I'd love to have a fast car.

I'm just saying that 120hp in an econobox is adequete for the purpose it's designed for. Not all vehicles need to have a lot of power on tap.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/3/2009 2:16:40 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Not all vehicles need to have a lot of power on tap.
It all depends on your wants. One person says it doesn't have enough power and the other person says it's got plenty of power. My issue is that when someone posts that they want more power, the DT eco nazi wannabees break out their condemnation boots. Everyone has a right to make their choice and even if it's dumb for us, it works for them.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Ammohunt on 12/2/09, Rating: -1
RE: 4 door Hatch
By IlllI on 12/2/2009 4:07:44 PM , Rating: 4
in solviet russia hatch backs you!


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Siki on 12/2/2009 1:51:59 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
What is it that anyone else thinks they should have the ability to restrict what I need, and not allow me to have what I want?


The people and their governments have been doing this forever. Welcome to the real world.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By danrien on 12/2/2009 2:13:07 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I am positive that Obama has decided that mdogs444 should never be allowed to buy anything more than a Ford Fiesta, and that the rest of his money should go to making sure all the homeless people are living in mansions (although that kind of makes the term "homeless" unnecessary, doesn't it?).

Actually, welfare programs ensure that other people can get what they "need", such as food, a roof over their heads, and the guarantee that if they catch the common flu they can get treated for it. Notice, these people aren't getting what they "want". For that, they still have to have a job. But it is keeping them off the streets and it is giving them the ability to worry about things like going to school instead of wondering how they will survive tomorrow (which may have in the past involved stealing one of those things that you wanted and bought).


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/09, Rating: -1
RE: 4 door Hatch
By hashish2020 on 12/2/2009 6:08:31 PM , Rating: 2
"and can't go for free because they are dumbshits and their grades sucked"

"all the while I have to sacrifice and pay my own way through school by taking out massive loans and paying them off with interest for the 10 years following"

Thanks dumbshit


RE: 4 door Hatch
By FITCamaro on 12/3/2009 12:32:25 AM , Rating: 2
I wish I'll have my loans paid back in 10 years.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By piroroadkill on 12/3/2009 6:31:48 AM , Rating: 2
... So don't purchase this car.

It's called choice.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/09, Rating: -1
RE: 4 door Hatch
By corduroygt on 12/2/2009 11:28:43 AM , Rating: 2
I had both kinds, and still the most fun I had was in small light cars with lower hp's and much lower weight.

But if you can afford a big car and like driving it, more power to you...I had my share of V8's and I'm glad I had the chance to experience them before they're outlawed by environmentalists, and if not, they'll be a lot less common, since oil is guaranteed to go up in price in the long term future.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/2009 11:34:38 AM , Rating: 1
Agreed. I just can't stand when people want to play the whole "materialism and consumption" are bad cards.

It's like the whole "shared sacrifice" and "pay their fair share" lines. Those mean "I get more while you sacrifice".


RE: 4 door Hatch
By bupkus on 12/2/2009 1:18:52 PM , Rating: 2
I have a huge SUV with a custom developed engine that delivers over 500 HP. Why? Cause I wanted it. How can I afford to pay for the gas in this 8 MPG stink wagon? I drive naked. </whimsical mulling>


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mcnabney on 12/2/2009 1:35:40 PM , Rating: 4
This is the kind of attitude that finances the people that fly airplanes into buildings.

When oil is back up to $150/barrel we can thank all of the owners of the vehicles that created the demand. The short-sightedness of Americans is dazzling.

/American
//going to sell a Nissan to buy a Fiesta next year


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/09, Rating: -1
RE: 4 door Hatch
By mcnabney on 12/2/2009 2:54:12 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, I am very conservative economically. Oil is just a commodity - one that our nation is not terribly well endowed with. A conservative does not waste money and resources recklessly. He/she invests it prudently, attempting to meet all of the requirements and as many of the desires as possible. Buying a vehicle that is designed for purposes that you do not use is foolish and wasteful. The Hippies don't like oil because it fouls the air and is dominated by mean-old big business. I hate oil because it is a resource that the US cannot control and imports are a major part of our trade imbalance.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By IcePickFreak on 12/2/2009 1:44:29 PM , Rating: 2
Right, because of all the terrorists in Canada and Mexico.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Jellodyne on 12/2/2009 1:47:27 PM , Rating: 1
Dude, everyone knows terrorism is funded entirely by drugs. I'm not even sure there is any of this oil stuff in the middle east.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Keeir on 12/2/2009 1:57:06 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
When oil is back up to $150/barrel we can thank all of the owners of the vehicles that created the demand. The short-sightedness of Americans is dazzling.


The additional extra size of American cars only increases world oil demand by a percentage point or two. Not enough to create drastic price swings.

Why?

US consumes around 25% of the Worlds Oil per day

The "Transportation" Sector only demands 60% of the oil in the US. This includes Airplane Travel, current mass transit, work vechiles, etc. Heck, only around 65% of the oil used in the transportation sector is even turned into gasoline at all!

If we somehow moved the US from 24 MPG average --> 30 MPG average (roughly if everyone drove a C-segment sedan rather than anything else), the total world demand for oil would fall... less than 2% (presuming 100% of gasoline is used by passenger choice cars).

Now, we all know this isn't true. Roughly 30% or more of gasoline used is used by things like buses, trucks (that can't really get any smaller)

To recap, only around 6-8% of the worlds daily oil demand is used in US passenger cars (the actual percentage is probably significantly less than this). Even if we force everyone in the US into a compact car, 5-6% would still be used in US passenger cars. Such a swing is -not- going to affect world energy prices significantly.

Want to use less oil? Don't buy things, especially imported things. Things are shipped (requiring oil), made from plastic (often requires oil), recycled or thrown away (requiring more oil typically). The World's Ocean going vessels use as much oil as the world's cars.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mcnabney on 12/2/2009 3:04:39 PM , Rating: 2
Current production is very tight. The only reason prices are low now (yeah $75/BBL is low?) is because of the global recession. In fact, oil is cheap in Europe due to the weak dollar. But once economic expansion starts up again expect another big spike. Demand for oil isn't as flexible as orange juice or corn. Most of the demand is absolute - ie - the buyer will pay almost any price to guarantee supply. That requirement, and the clear lack of substitutes, allow oil to be quickly and easily bid-up. Even when gas was $4/gallon the US really didn't use much less. Growth slowed, but nowhere near as much as other commodities would if their price tripled in a few months. It also works both ways. A 2% drop in global demand (centered only in the US) would cause a huge drop in oil prices.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 5:20:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
A 2% drop in global demand (centered only in the US) would cause a huge drop in oil prices.
Why do people keep saying this when oil prices are NOT based on supply and demand alone. When a group of people get together to decide oil pricing, free market is out the door. When the US demand shrinks, prices will be raised to compensate. Do you really think that OPEC is going to take less money because the US decides to reduce its usage? Temporary reductions are one thing, but wait when our reduction is permanent. Expect an OPEC meeting to restrict supply to artificially raise prices. Jesus, they've been doing this for decades, why would they change now?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Keeir on 12/2/2009 7:04:18 PM , Rating: 4
Sorry. Your not going to sell me the idea that changing supply by 2% is going to result in more than 10% oil swings.

Why? Because although US driving patterns don't change based on price, a good 50%+ of demand -does- change based on price.

Sources (Had to guess earlier):
http://www.nationmaster.com/red/pie/ene_oil_con-en...

Lets examine changes from 2005 to 2007. (Rising Prices)

US Oil consumption fell from 20.8 to 20.7.

Chinese Oil consumption rose from 6.5 to 7.5.

Even if the US somehow magically reduce our oil consumption by 8% (the maximum possible by forcing people to drive C-segment or smaller cars. A more realistic estimate would be 4-5%. Keep in mind its probably going to be less than a single percentage point worldwide). This amount of reduction can easily be snapped up by China/India/Developing Economies in as little as a year or two. And the slightly lower price of oil due to US demand lowering will ensure these countries do indeed.

Look at 2003--> 2005. (Steady "Low" Prices)

World Oil demand increased by 12.5%
US Oil demand increased by 4%

So much attention is placed on car oil usage and emissions because its something that is easily tied to a person. A supertanker full of junk from China produced in an inefficient factory then shipped around the US to Walmarts to sell to people is much harder. Yet having localized production facilities (for all the developed nations) would significantly reduce oil consumption worldwide at the expense of course of higher prices. (Energy is still cheaper than US labour apparently).

It may be entirely true that a Single Person in an SUV that buys local goods made of real materials manufactured locally actually wastes less total oil than someone with a family of four jammed into a C-segment class car but buys cheap plastic stuff from China that is constantly replaced.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 10:15:40 PM , Rating: 1
Wait just a minute buster! That was a fairly intelligent and informative post, you must work for an oil company lol.

Just kidding, it's nice to see someone who has a larger grasp of the issue than the greentards patting themselves on the back for which car they drive.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By bupkus on 12/2/2009 2:27:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
/American //going to sell a Nissan to buy a Fiesta next year

I'm gonna trade in my current wheels for a wooden cart and a goat and move to Kazakhstan.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 2:37:00 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The short-sightedness of Americans is dazzling.
LOL! "Is that you, God?" - old friend from the military


RE: 4 door Hatch
By corduroygt on 12/2/09, Rating: -1
RE: 4 door Hatch
By jonup on 12/2/2009 1:32:12 PM , Rating: 2
IC engines do not have to run on petrol oil only. There is biodiesel :)
That said I do agree with the idea of light cars. A LOT MORE FUN! The problem is that the new Fiesta is not that light. It is light in relative terms compared to modern cars. However, it is several hundred kilograms heavier than MK1 golf. And HP is not substitution for weight.
And for every one that cries that Americans need 300+HP it is the Europeans that put tons of HP in their cars. Except GM of late, there have not been many US mainstream manufacturer's high output engines out there. For those of you that have not been on this side of the pond, the roads here are not like the ones in Europe and small car/engines do not fit the driving experience. Every time I am in EU I enjoy driving a friend's hatch, but I do not want to have one in the US. I do on 4-6-week engagements 100 miles away from my home and I am more than glad that I have a big V6.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spivonious on 12/2/2009 11:40:00 AM , Rating: 5
It's not wealth envy. It's complaining about a $12k-$15k compact car only having enough HP to go 0-60 in 8-10 seconds. The marketing departments of the domestic auto makers have convinced the public that they need at least 200hp or the car won't be able to move.

I think it's ridiculous when I see a 5'1" mom lugging her only child around in a GMC Denali. Is that wealth envy? If I had a million dollars I wouldn't own a huge SUV. I'd own a Ferrari. :)

It's more that we hear of people having hard times with foreclosures on the 5BR/6BA house they couldn't afford in the first place so they can be at work for 10 hours a day and commuting to and from it for another 4. It's wasteful.

It is no different than when someone leaves the faucet running while brushing their teeth, or lets their car run for 10 minutes in the driveway so it's warm when they get in, or collecting food stamps and having an iPhone, or sitting on unemployment for a year not actively looking for a new job.

My friends were truly amazed when my wife and I paid cash for a new kitchen (~$12k). It was unbelievable to them that we had that much in savings, even though we only make ~$50k a year after taxes, even with our $1500/month mortgage, even with all of our other bills.

Is it wealth envy? No, it's a result of a culture that places material possessions on such a high pedestal that when someone thinks differently they're accused of hating capitalism.

/rant over


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/09, Rating: -1
RE: 4 door Hatch
By psychobriggsy on 12/2/2009 12:36:55 PM , Rating: 2
To be fair a $12k kitchen replacement of an old knackered kitchen will, even in today's market, increase the value of the house by at least the value of the kitchen, whilst making

$50k of car will be worth $40k on its first drive, and $30k after a year.

But it's right that people should be able to spend their money on what they want. Environmentally bad hobbies can be taxed more (increase tax on gas) to reflect the true cost of that hobby.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/2009 12:39:54 PM , Rating: 2
You won't get any argument from me on investing in your home to increase its value, or to even make it the way you like. I'm merely just calling a spade a spade for him thinking he can criticize everyone else for not just getting what they "need", at least as far as he justifies.
quote:
Environmentally bad hobbies can be taxed more (increase tax on gas) to reflect the true cost of that hobby.

Stuff and nonsense. This whole "environmental consciousness" has gone way too far already. Using taxation as a method of social engineering is not only wrong, but should be illegal. Its a method of taking away your freedoms, with our doing so within the constitution. By artificially pricing things out of the average persons grasp, they can control who has what and how easily it is to obtain - merely a method to not allow people to have what they want because the legislators don't personally like it.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By psychobriggsy on 12/2/2009 12:48:00 PM , Rating: 2
So let's include disposal and cleanup costs in the up-front price rather than as a tax.

For a recyclable thing, it won't be much.

For something that emits masses of CO2, maybe it could be the cost of carbon credits - might as well include that on the price of gas up front.

For something that can only go into landfill, you add on the cost of landfill. It could make the recyclable alternative a more attractive proposition.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/2009 12:52:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
So let's include disposal and cleanup costs in the up-front price rather than as a tax.

Disposal and cleanup of what? Isn't that already paid for in my monthly trash fees?
quote:
For something that emits masses of CO2, maybe it could be the cost of carbon credits - might as well include that on the price of gas up front.

Utter bunk...I don't buy into this whole CO2 man made caused global warming crap, so I sure as hell don't think we should pay for any carbon credits. That's a scam, and its being called for what it is right now as we speak...
quote:
For something that can only go into landfill, you add on the cost of landfill.

Thats called trash fees...we have private companies here that own the landfills and we pay them to do so.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By jonup on 12/2/2009 2:05:39 PM , Rating: 2
The we should tax larger people because they breath more air, therefore, breath out more CO2. Same goes for athlites.
The thing is water vapor is 3000 times more potend then CO2 in capturing heat. (There is research done, google it if you don't believe me , which you don't.) Now take into account all the water vapor, and all the natural CO2 (created from living and dead organism) and decide if converting every all V8s into I4s will have a material impact on the global "warming".
But I am really not trying to change your mind, because I am studying carbon trading right now ($108B business in 2008) and I need believers like you to make it work.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 3:04:47 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
So let's include disposal and cleanup costs in the up-front price rather than as a tax.
Gas is taxed, trash and water are taxed in some areas, clothing is taxed, food is taxed, eating is taxed, electricity is taxed, home ownership is taxed, etc ad nauseam. If you buy or use more, you pay more in taxes. If you make more money, you pay more in taxes. We already have these things in place. You will always have people that can afford more than you. And unless you march into someone's home with an army, physically take all of their possessions and freeze their bank accounts, this will continue. If this is what you desire, there are countries that do this all day, everyday.

Europe is nice and I wouldn't mind getting a vacation home there sometime. My wife wouldn't mind if we just lived there for a period of time. But I was born and raised HERE in the US, and despite our checkered past (loads of countries have a checkered past so step off of the horse), I cherish our values, customs, and cultures. I like that an average person can go out and buy a "big" house and a nice car of his/her choosing. I like that we have choice. More than that I like that choice is an ingrained value in most Americans (if not all).

The US is not about being in a collective. It's about the individual making his/her own way. If you want to be in a collective, you can. If you want to be a hermit, you can. If you want to be poor, you can. If you want to rich, you can. If you are poor and want to be rich, you can. If you want a Yukon Denali on 22's, go get one. If you want a Ford Fiesta, go get one. Everyone has a right to choose.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By invidious on 12/2/2009 1:39:50 PM , Rating: 2
There is nothing "true" about taxing something based on political views. True value comes from the free market, period.

The idea that spending on your house is an investment and that spending on your car is a waste is just your opinion. Ultimately we are spending our money on survival and pleasure, everyone doesn't enjoys the same things and everyone doesn't have the same disposable income. What am I supposed to do with my money once I am done with essentials like fixing my house? Donate it all to charity?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Parhel on 12/2/2009 12:46:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Do you think she should not be allowed to have it by law, or that she should have to be taxed more than you to have it?


In part, I do think she should be taxed more. Or at least I wouldn't object to an additional tax on vehicles above a certain weight limitation. When a passenger vehicle all of a sudden exceeds the weight limits that residential streets were designed to handle on a regular basis, it forces everyone to pay to have them maintained and rebuilt. If somebody wants a Hummer, OK, but I shouldn't have to pay for the consequences of someone else's luxury.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/2009 12:58:02 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Or at least I wouldn't object to an additional tax on vehicles above a certain weight limitation.

Including standard mini-van's right?
quote:
hen a passenger vehicle all of a sudden exceeds the weight limits that residential streets were designed to handle on a regular basis

LOL - which is what? Please tell me you do not honestly think a street is not made to handle the weight of an SUV....but that a moving truck or company truck delivering goods is completely fine to drive on it.
quote:
If somebody wants a Hummer, OK, but I shouldn't have to pay for the consequences of someone else's luxury.

he guy driving the Hummer uses more gas than you do, thus contributing that much more money in taxes to the road funds. So I would argue that he pays more for the roads than you do, even if he uses them less than you. In fact, I think he is probably funding your driving habits and your luxury of having a car at all. Not to mention he paid more local and state taxes and fees when he purchased that Hummer.

But hey, anything that fits your mold of punishing those who don't conform to your lifestyle.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Parhel on 12/2/2009 1:17:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
LOL - which is what? Please tell me you do not honestly think a street is not made to handle the weight of an SUV....but that a moving truck or company truck delivering goods is completely fine to drive on it.


I specified "on a regular basis" for a reason. Many residential roads have a posted weight limit, but nonetheless the garbage truck still drives down them. It weighs far more when fully loaded as any residential delivery truck . . . but it comes just once a week, and it's a requirement for everyone who lives on that street.

You can't drive around with tire chains on during the summer, can you? Is that because all the whining liberals who can't afford tire chains want to restrict your freedom? Or is it because public resources cost everyone money so we shouldn't ruin them?

Look, I understand your point, but I still wouldn't mind if they charged an extra $50 on the license plate sticker for passenger vehicles over 3 tons or so, and used it to maintain the roads.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/2009 1:22:30 PM , Rating: 2
I have never seen a sign saying that a road only supports up to 3 tons....basically leaving Tahoe/Denali/Escalade and Expedition/Excursion, and some full sized trucks prohibited.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Parhel on 12/2/2009 1:30:15 PM , Rating: 3
http://www.tfhrc.gov/structur/pubs/04098/images/fi...

:)

I know, covered bridges don't exactly count, but I couldn't resist.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 7:32:50 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It weighs far more when fully loaded as any residential delivery truck . . . but it comes just once a week, and it's a requirement for everyone who lives on that street.
It comes once a week to YOUR house!!! LOL! The garbage trucks operate everyday dude! Using the roads everyday along with the delivery trucks, semi's, and buses. All of those vehicles do an order of magnitude more damage to roads than any SUV. Get off of the fad, trendy anti-SUV bandwagon and think for yourself. These people pay MORE for the privilege all around. There are no free rides here.

Look, I don't like SUV's of any type. Even if I could REALLY use one, I would try my damnedest not have to buy one. I can't stand trendy BS and SUV's are soccer mom, trendy BS. You won't see me in a Prius or any other hybrid for the same reason. But if someone else wants to buy a SUV, more power to them. Being a freedom of choice country and all, they are free to choose whatever car they want.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Parhel on 12/2/2009 8:28:19 PM , Rating: 2
Well, I was talking about residential streets, and garbage trucks don't typically drive down the same residential streets each and every day. And, really, I was just making a point about wear and tear on roads in general.

I'm not anti-SUV either. My wife drives one as a matter of fact. I think they're no fun whatsoever to drive, and I wouldn't drive one, but it doesn't bother me that other people want or need them. I'm just not opposed to the idea of higher taxes for heavier vehicles.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 11:26:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Well, I was talking about residential streets, and garbage trucks don't typically drive down the same residential streets each and every day.
What's the difference between your street and my street? They go down your street on Monday and down my street on Tuesday. Either way, big heavy trucks go down the various streets everyday. And these vehicles are already taxed accordingly. I gave an example in this thread, go read it.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 10:32:29 PM , Rating: 2
Well if we are going to use this kind of logic for taxation, since I drive fewer miles than the average person I demand to pay less taxes for road upkeep.

Since I am quite handy about repairing things, I insist on less taxes for manufacturing and disposal costs.

See how it works? The reality is this kind of taxation is all about greed, everyone wants to tax what OTHER People are doing that they aren't, it's really not the solution to anything it just raises governmental intervention and costly overhead in our lives.

The problem of road maintenance is one of misspent money at the local, state and federal level. You give them more money and it won't make a difference, they've already decided the roads are good enough to spend what they already have - more than enough to maintain the roads better, on other things instead.

The answer is LOWER taxes. Reduce them until every penny is precious, till they actually have to budget to make ends meet like responsible individual citizens do. Take away the mindset that money can be spent on a whim and an idea.

Know what the funny thing is? If we did that, given better maintained roads we have safer roads, the crash safety built into automobiles would be more effective so we could make lighter automobiles that use less gas and wear the roads less.

The situation is already covered though, people buying the SUVs pay more in sales tax, and same goes for any heavy vehicle as metal (weight) isn't free material.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By erple2 on 12/4/2009 9:10:45 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The situation is already covered though, people buying the SUVs pay more in sales tax, and same goes for any heavy vehicle as metal (weight) isn't free material.


No. SUV's don't necessarily cost more than other cars can cost. The hope is that the costs are recouped in the taxes levied on Gasoline, which SUV's tend to use more of than a comparably priced car.

Personally, that's the only real way to "fairly" tax, if you're a proponent of the "usage tax" idea. Make gasoline taxes 4-5 dollars per gallon (like most of the rest of the world). That way, only the people that use the gas get heavily taxed. Assuming, of course, that lowers my income taxes.

Now, people will have an incentive to buy more efficient cars. I think that these government mandated CAFE standards are a step in the wrong direction.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/2/2009 4:16:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Or at least I wouldn't object to an additional tax on vehicles above a certain weight limitation.
Already in place. Vehicles over 10,000 lbs GVWR pay more in taxes. And there are incrementally higher taxes for heavier vehicles. That said, anyone that drives a heavier vehicle is already taxed more. Heavier vehicles usually cost more so their owners pay more in initial taxes and registration fees. They use more gas so they pay more fueling costs. Owners of these vehicles pay more already. Way more than even a sedan owner.

Example: My 2006 Ford F250 diesel cost me $2500 in registration fees and taxes. It also costs me $80 each week to fill (a total fill from empty would cost $90). A similarly priced and equal mileage 2006 Toyota Camry V6 would've cost me $1900 registration fees and taxes. A total fill from empty would cost $54. And the yearly re-registration fees would be less too.

See the differences here. People with larger, more expensive vehicles already pay more.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By jonup on 12/2/2009 1:49:28 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Do you think she should not be allowed to have it by law, or that she should have to be taxed more than you to have it?

She should not for at least these reasons:
1. It is effing ugly.
2. Impairs vision/traffic,
3. She most likely cannot see well out of it and therefore, she cannot drive it. (I believe there should be differnt levels of licences (not just CDLs).
quote:
Its not wasteful. They are just morons, plain and simple. Not because the house is large, or whether they spend time in it or not. But because they bought what they can't afford.

Two thumbs up; and for the rest of your post as well.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 10:39:40 PM , Rating: 3
Rebuttal:

1. Many think all the little clone tin-can econo-cars are ugly too, but who is going to care if you like the looks of their SUV?

2. Then get a taller vehicle (like an SUV, lol).

3. Ever heard of adjustable seats? Once you get out of econo-box cars, you tend to find basic features like that. The people who can't drive large vehicles well are simply those who haven't any practice at it. Similarly, many who drive an SUV would be less safe in a panel van with only mirrors for rear viewing. Many who drive a sports car would be less safe the day they drove anything with a higher center of gravity. Many who don't have driving skills adjusted to compensate for lack of vision amidst taller vehicles will be less safe too.

You choose how fast to go and how far behind someone you follow. You demonstrate poor driving skills with the idea impaired vision is a factor to consider.

Certainly someone should not buy what they can't afford but that has little to nothing to do with the general idea that others should do without what they want to suit you.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By jonup on 12/3/2009 10:56:50 AM , Rating: 2
1. I do agree that the Prius is ugly so are many cars, however if there's any one that thinks there is SUV pretier then the Fiesta hatch I need to go see a doctor.
2. Yes, but I do not want to sacrifice ride confort, handling, lower center of gravity, looks, you name it, because the a-hole in front bought an SUV because he knows nothing about cars.
3. I drive a Passat W8, do you really want to tell me about basic features? And I did say I do not drive SUVs a lot, though I owned a 202.6" long Bonneville which is just a little longer than a Denali's 202", but how is it that I do not know how to drive large vehicle?
quote:
Many who don't have driving skills adjusted to compensate for lack of vision amidst taller vehicles will be less safe too.

I do not disagree that people could learn to mitigate the lack of vision but that does not seems to be the case with most SUV I encouter on the roads.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spivonious on 12/3/2009 10:19:10 AM , Rating: 1
I think you missed my point. Let me try to restate it.

People place way too much emphasis on acquiring the most stuff. Then they complain when they don't have any money. And then they try to make themselves feel better about throwing their money down the drain by claiming people with money are either evil corporate CEOs or tree-hugging hippies.

My examples of waste were my opinion, yes. I don't think the government needs to step in to control this. On the contrary, I think people need to take responsibility for themselves.

If you can afford to waste, then by all means, do it. But take some time to think about how much money you could be saving, and what you could spend it on instead (like my new kitchen example). Did we need a new kitchen? No, just a new cooktop, since I broke our old one. But we wanted a new kitchen. It makes cooking easier, it lowered our electric bill with new appliances, it doubled our storage, and it increased the house's value as a nice bonus. It hasn't even been 6 months and we've already replenished our savings to where they were before the purchase.

Calling me a liberal is calling Ron Paul a liberal, because after reading his book I can confidently say I agree with him completely.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Reclaimer77 on 12/2/2009 12:34:34 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
It is no different than when someone leaves the faucet running while brushing their teeth


Oh my god, the horror. The absolute HORROR of it all ! Oh the humanity !!!!!!

Seriously, stop being a judgemental little prick. Live your own life how you want, other's are free to do the same.

quote:
I think it's ridiculous when I see a 5'1" mom lugging her only child around in a GMC Denali.


How do you know that's her only child anyway ? I love how this random mother needs to justify her purchase to you.

quote:
lets their car run for 10 minutes in the driveway so it's warm when they get in


Are you being serious ??? Yeah how dare they limit wear and tear on the engine by warming the car up first. I guess if the windows are frosted up with ice they should also jump right in it and go too ?

I've had enough with people like you. You are judgemental, and a hypocrite. I guarantee you have done, and do, wasteful things all the time. But look down on others for the dumbest things. What a sad little prick you come off as man, seriously, anyone reading your post should just feel sad and disgusted little assholes like you are out there running around.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/2009 12:48:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Oh my god, the horror. The absolute HORROR of it all ! Oh the humanity !!!!!!

Haha. That was great. These self rightous pricks think they have the right to make everyone feel guilty for not living within a certain lifestyle...and if the guilt doesn't get them, then tax and regulate them as forms of social engineering.

Just like those idiots in NYC who ticket people for leaving their cars run idling. Or how about those left wing loons who want to ban fast food restaurants because car emissions are killing the planet?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By corduroygt on 12/2/2009 1:56:23 PM , Rating: 2
I had a diesel pickup idle next to the motel room I was staying in for a night, and believe me you don't want an ICE idling close to you. I had to go out and ask him to move his truck before his gases poisoned me. It's not the CO2, it's the other gases, so that law is justified there.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 10:42:32 PM , Rating: 2
There is a difference between leaving a vehicle where it is a problem and leaving it idling in general. However it is generally illegal to leave an automobile running unattended in many states for other safety factor reasons, what you might have done is just call the police and let the owner be ticketed.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By walk2k on 12/2/2009 1:23:52 PM , Rating: 2
That would be fine if you were the only person on the planet who had to pay the price for your exessive use of limited resources.

Last time I checked there was only 1 planet, we all breathe the same air, and we all have to use the same resources. In case you flunked economics 101, oil is a commodity, when you use more, we ALL end up paying more. It's called supply and demand.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Reclaimer77 on 12/2/2009 1:30:03 PM , Rating: 2
Ok Walk so lead by example. Stop breathing and consuming right now. I'll be right behind you.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mdogs444 on 12/2/2009 1:31:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Last time I checked there was only 1 planet

Spoken like a true hippy.
quote:
oil is a commodity, when you use more, we ALL end up paying more

As a commodity, its regulated by laws of supply & demand. By your "love of the planet" stuff, I am assuming you're dead set against drilling for oil and investing in methods to make shale cheaper. If you are purposely limiting our ability to expand the supply - then you are no better than anyone who is responsible for increasing the demand.

My suggestion to you - advocate for as much drilling as possible....or shut the hell up and go get a better job to make more money.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By GruntboyX on 12/2/2009 11:42:31 AM , Rating: 3
There are a couple reasons for this.

1. American's spend far more time in there car than other nations. Thus, it is more desirable to make this environment as comfortable as possible. Since the average person spends as much time in there cars as watching TV or eating meals, it makes sense they will spend more money to suit there personal tastes. Some prefer a better ride, some prefer better visibility. Some prefer more power.

2. American's tend to be more self sufficient than other cultures. Thus when the toilet breaks, it is off to the hardware store to acquire material instead of calling the plumber. This tends to increase the necessity of added cargo space. It also goes with the fact American land is cheaper so houses tend to be bigger. Thus bigger things fit in these houses. Couple that with the more independent nature, there cars are bigger to move these bigger items. Thus, more power.

3. American's typically (on average) don't enjoy the same level of public services that other countries do. This results in more dependence on personal transportation. Such as disposing your trash in a landfill/convenience center. Towing yard equipment to service stations. Enjoying the family vacation and having sufficient cargo space for the entire family.

4. There is a historical element. For Better or worse, American's have historically always drive large cars. during times of economic trouble the car size shrinks, but in general the trend is that cars are getting smaller. This is helped by improvements in mechanics without sacrificing user space.

Disclamer: I am an American. I Drive a Ford Ranger Pickup. I use it very heavily and do things with it I could not comfortably do with a compact. For instance, I would not like to transport my trash in the trunk of my car (stinky). In the future I look to get into Tree Farming, and thus am actively looking for a Full Size Truck that can tow farm equipment. I am not a city dweller, and thus have no use for a compact car. It would be difficult to tow a tractor with a prius/fiesta/Versa. Also, I find myself traveling on non paved surfaces, 4x4 is turning more into a necessity for me and less of a luxury.

Power is necessity to ensure safe acceleration and towing capabilities.

Those are my objective opinions if your willing to listen. However I suspect your a narrow minded troll.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Reclaimer77 on 12/2/2009 12:26:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Why is it that Americans think you need 300hp to get to the store?


Why does this stereotype exist ?

It's been over 40 years since America widely adopted the V8 engine. Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't pretty much ALL high horsepower/performance vehicles come from Europe and the UK ?

Why does Lotus, Aston Martin, Bugahtti, Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc etc think you need 500hp to get to the store ?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Parhel on 12/2/2009 12:53:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't pretty much ALL high horsepower/performance vehicles come from Europe and the UK ?


OK . . . you're wrong. :)

What about the Corvette or the Viper?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By jonup on 12/2/2009 2:35:43 PM , Rating: 2
Only the Z06 and ZR1 boost over 500bhp and as far as I know most people won't amputate their childrens legs so that they can drive their family around in a 500+hp car.
And the engine in the Viper should have stayed in a pick up truck; way to much torgue and not enough revs. Unless you enjoy accelarating from 120mph on, of course.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Parhel on 12/2/2009 2:57:10 PM , Rating: 2
Well, you're assuming he only meant sedans, but most of the automakers he mentioned don't even offer a sedan.

There are a few American sedans with over 400hp. The Dodge 6.1 liter Hemi puts out over 400hp, and that's available in the Challenger if not in other models. There was the Pontiac G8 GXP until they went under. The Cadillac CTS-V is over 550HP. Over 300hp and you have lot of choices.

I don't think Americans are horsepower obsessed by any means, but it bugs me when people insinuate that high performance vehicles only come from Europe.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By jonup on 12/2/2009 3:21:21 PM , Rating: 2
I guess you did not read or ignored my post bellow. G8 are less then 2-year old and the only reason people bought the Dodge is because it was cheap or they were giving it away. The point is that EU automakers make tons more high powered models. At the same time they market those to the US market.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 10:48:18 PM , Rating: 2
The problem with the argument is that even though some examples exist, it is not what the average american is driving so it is clearly a ridiculous implication or stereotype.

However, the reasons are clear. Larger heavier vehicle needs more torque from an ICE, the natural side effect of a well engineered higher torque engine is also more HP. It needs to be remembered that a strong engine doesn't necessarily have terrible fuel economy, people are just being excessive with their fixation on small mileage improvements as if this minor difference is going to save the world or something.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/3/2009 12:13:05 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
There are a few American sedans with over 400hp. The Dodge 6.1 liter Hemi puts out over 400hp, and that's available in the Challenger if not in other models. There was the Pontiac G8 GXP until they went under. The Cadillac CTS-V is over 550HP.
Those are niche vehicles that hardly register a blip on the sales radar here. They're halo cars mostly, have a very loyal following, and US automakers need to be able to compete with the foreign makes so they continue produce them. Your average person buys sedans and trucks. Versatility and practicality is what sells in the US. Americans like performance cars but, generally, would never drive one as a primary vehicle. Personally, I own a sports car and drive it daily. Practicality is boring.

This is what we buy.
http://online.wsj.com/mdc/public/page/2_3022-autos...


RE: 4 door Hatch
By jonup on 12/2/2009 2:27:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
come from Europe and the UK ?

For the most part UK is in Europe. :)
quote:
Why does Lotus, Aston Martin, Bugahtti, Ferrari, Porsche, Lamborghini, etc etc think you need 500hp to get to the store ?

Most powerful Lotus today uses Camry V6, the rest of the line uses I4s from MR2.
Non of these cars (except some Porsche) are ever every day cars you take up to the store.
But as a mainstream (not exotics) BMW, Merc, Audi, VW make 400+HP family friendly cars. You point is spot on.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By FPP on 12/14/2009 6:29:30 PM , Rating: 2
What makes you think they're going to the store?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mjcuk on 12/2/2009 12:27:49 PM , Rating: 2
Because they've got enormous brains. They weigh a lot you know!

The 2011 sedan looks boxy and ugly, although having said that, it does look your typical American car.

lol@40mpg. Wow, America IS embracing fuel economy!


RE: 4 door Hatch
By psychobriggsy on 12/2/2009 12:39:35 PM , Rating: 2
That's 48 miles per Imperial gallon.

Also the measurement methodology will be different.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/3/2009 12:16:50 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
lol@40mpg. Wow, America IS embracing fuel economy!
While Europe is embracing ignorance. LOL! We don't use the same testing methods as Europe to measure fuel economy. Then there's that pesky difference between US gallons and Imperial gallons. But you already knew that, right?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Hiawa23 on 12/2/2009 11:06:50 AM , Rating: 2
you have to make a decision, higher HP but lower fuel economy. Can't seem to have both out of a gasoline engine. I am still baffled after all these years the automakers have making automobiles that gasoline engine technology hasn't improved moreso than it has.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By dubldwn on 12/2/2009 12:56:23 PM , Rating: 2
All automatic:
2008 Chevy Aveo.....1.6L...I4...103HP...23/32 mpg
2008 Honda Fit.........1.5L...I4...109HP...27/34 mpg
2008 Smart ForTwo..1.0L...I3....70HP...33/40 mpg
2008 Toyota Yaris....1.5L...I4...106HP...29/35 mpg

2008 Honda Accord...3.5L..V6...268HP...22/32 mpg

The disparity isn't huge. This also shows what a good job Ford did here, especially considering all the available features. Not sure about cost though.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By jjmcubed on 12/3/2009 9:57:11 AM , Rating: 2
According to Honda.com the V6 in the Accord is rated at 19/29.
http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specific...


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Iaiken on 12/2/2009 11:09:38 AM , Rating: 2
Already on it's way...

Ford is planning the Fiesta RS which adds:

- Ttwin-spool turbo
- intercooler
- upgraded cam
- upgraded exhaust
- larger injectors
- upgraded brakes
- sportier suspension

The end result is a Ford hot hatch with 200BHP and 209ftlbs torque that can do 0-60 in just under 6 seconds. Not amazing, but enough to keep up with the GTI and the JCW's of the world.

Pic: http://fordnewsblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/04/fi...


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Cheesew1z69 on 12/2/2009 12:12:19 PM , Rating: 2
Now that is sexy


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 10:50:13 PM , Rating: 2
Meh, I had a pair of gym shoes that looked not much different.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/3/2009 12:18:23 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Ford is planning the Fiesta RS which adds:
Are you sure that's coming here?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Marlonsm on 12/2/2009 11:12:20 AM , Rating: 2
119 Hp is more than enough.

You don't really need more than that.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By ebakke on 12/2/2009 11:38:43 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
119 Hp is more than enough for me .

I don't really need more than that.
Fixed it for you.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mjcuk on 12/2/09, Rating: 0
RE: 4 door Hatch
By ebakke on 12/2/2009 12:51:44 PM , Rating: 2
No, he didn't. Each person's needs are different, and to claim otherwise is ridiculous. Furthermore, the assertion that any one person can decide what's an acceptable measure for everyone else to live by is even more ludicrous. Nothing scares me more than other people trying to force their opinions on me.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 10:54:45 PM , Rating: 1
Hello? Sanity check. Who is forcing their ideas on you? This talk of "you should drive tiny miserly car" has been going on for decades but you can still buy that SUV can't you?

All they are really doing is asking the automobile industry what is possible, assuming the automobile industry is being conservative, and giving them a timetable to improve the SUV fuel economy a bit.

This has gone on with automobiles for years now and yet we keep getting more powerful, more luxurious vehicles so where is the problem except for the rising cost? Once you consider that rising cost is offset by lower fuel costs over the life of the vehicle it starts to balance out so long as you don't buy one of the hippy electric specials.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/3/2009 12:21:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Hello? Sanity check.
Hello? A$$hole check. What does the following statement mean to you?

quote:
119 Hp is more than enough. You don't really need more than that.
Sounds like someone that would like to force their ideas on you but I'll let you tell me what you think.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mindless1 on 12/4/2009 8:30:31 PM , Rating: 2
What they would "like" is irrelevant isn't it? Free speech and all, just ignore them.

That is the point, you act as though it's necessary to argue against morons when it isn't. Where would THAT end? It wouldn't. Ever.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By rippleyaliens on 12/2/2009 1:37:06 PM , Rating: 3
People kill me with their arrogance.
No one needs a car with 300hp.. WELL DUH, they dont..

IN THIS WORLD. the entire world.. If all we got was what we needed.. then progress would not be here.

I, Myself i will be getting the Cadillac CTS-V.. Do i need it, NO!!, BUT Do i want it, YES!!!!.. That is called life.. If you want something, it inspires you to get it. Dealing with whats needed, just gets you whats needed.. Dont be mad at the neighbor who has something better, why.. Because he wanted it.. The Eco System.. For all you neighsayers.. did you give to green peace this week? Have you saved a few whales?? Talk is cheap..

Why do you have broadband?? Dialup does the same exact same thing.. its cheaper, and more economical , YET im sure you WANT SOMETHING FASTER...

A 5'1 lady + 1 kid in a Durango??? Well that woman 1. PAYS a higher payment for said vehicle.. 2. Insurance cost's her yet MORE.. 3. THE GAS for that thing.. She pays ALOT!!! more for her gas (MPG) then this ford.. I guess you dont realize that the TAX she pays, as mentioned before.. THAT is how roads are built/maintained... For you poor people, or RICH people, who want the bare neccessities in life. STAY with the vehicles you want.. For the Others, who work hard, PLAY HARD.. Life is short, why live with the bare necessities, versus purchasing some of the luzuries///


RE: 4 door Hatch
By jonup on 12/2/2009 3:12:47 PM , Rating: 2
Dude, I principly agree with you, however, I still believe that the little Fiesta is better suited for her then a GMC Denali. I love cars, I can drift of fwd car but I am 5'6" and every time I drive a large SUV I frighten myself. I do not know, maybe you get used to it but I do not buy it. I drove a Bonneville SSEi till recently and size did not bother me. It is the combination of high and visability or lack of that makes large SUV unsuited for city driving. So do not tell me that 5'1" mother in a SUV is safe. I am all about choice, but I do not want to look at large SUVs (because they are ugly) and I do not want them driving on the way to or in downtown because they are plain danderous.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By ebakke on 12/2/2009 3:24:12 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Iam all about choice, but...
It sounds like you're all about choosing for other people.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By jonup on 12/2/2009 4:43:26 PM , Rating: 2
Hahaha! Yup, especially this kind of choice!


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spuke on 12/3/2009 12:31:21 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Dude, I principly agree with you, however, I still believe that the little Fiesta is better suited for her then a GMC Denali.
Principally, you don't because if you did, you'd let that lady drive her car in peace. Potentially crappy driver aside, it's her choice.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By jonup on 12/3/2009 6:26:26 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
it's her choice

Uneducated, unpracticle, retarded choice.
There is a reason they try not to sell guns to retards.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By munky on 12/2/2009 12:51:41 PM , Rating: 2
Enough for what? Driving from point A to point B? Ok. But is it enough to put a smile on your face as you push the accelerator and blow off whatever slowmo is driving ahead? Hardly. Is it enough to get your pulse going you floor it at 70mph when you see that empty stretch of road ahead, and enjoy a little excitement in an otherwise boring drive? No way. I NEED a 300hp car to enjoy driving.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 10:59:23 PM , Rating: 1
You need your drivers license revoked, and to find better ways to enjoy life. Not everything needs to be exciting due to personal risk and risk of those around you.

I'm sure you think you're a driving ACE, everyone does until that first big accident or else they wouldn't have wrecked would they?


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Omega215D on 12/2/2009 11:43:42 PM , Rating: 2
I'd love to have power like that for the highway, especially for those idiotic short on-ramps and the speed limit is 65MPH and surrounding traffic does 70 - 75 MPH.

It's been proven time and time again that speed alone is not dangerous and it is agreed that when people on a highway are doing similar speeds it tends to be much safer. One guy going way too slow is just as dangerous as one going way to fast.

I hated it when my 500cc motorcycle started feeling out of breath doing 70MPH in New Hampshire where the limit is 65 but average speed is 70 -75.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By munky on 12/3/2009 1:09:24 AM , Rating: 2
Nonsense. The people who need to have the license revoked are those too lazy to look in the mirror when changing lanes or those plowing full speed ahead on rainy slippery surfaces. That's where the risk lies.

Hard acceleration or occasional 100mph on an empty stretch of road is nowhere as risky, and considering I paid a pretty penny for the car, I'd know how not to drive.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Spivonious on 12/2/2009 11:14:11 AM , Rating: 2
The car is so light, I'm sure the HP is fine. I know that in my Focus ZX3 hatch the 130 or so HP is more than enough to have some fun.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Hiawa23 on 12/2/2009 11:11:54 AM , Rating: 3
I have always bought Japanese cars cause of their style & dependability appealed moreso to me than the Amercian auto companies, but I like what Ford is offering, everything from their hybrid suvs, to the Fusion, Focus, Taurus, just seems like a well run, efficient, quality company which is more than I can say for GM, who continues to have many internal issues.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By Targon on 12/2/2009 11:42:39 AM , Rating: 2
This is why I am waiting on the official specs for the 2011 Focus to be released. EcoBoost versions are expected to provide 180 horsepower with 43 miles per gallon highway(with the better transmission) for the 2011 version. I suspect that will be the real thing that will make the Focus significantly different from the Fiesta, that EcoBoost option.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By mmntech on 12/2/2009 12:20:00 PM , Rating: 2
It's not bad. It's on par with the pre-2006 Honda Civics, which is what I drive. I really like what Ford is coming out with lately. They're definitely a major improvement from when I was shopping for my current car four years ago.


RE: 4 door Hatch
By BZDTemp on 12/23/2009 6:17:20 PM , Rating: 2
It's light compared to standard US cars so it will do fine.

I wonder why it is a 2011 project - what is taking so long. They are on the roads in Europe and delaying makes no sense to me.


Nice car, shame it'll be built in Mexico
By corduroygt on 12/2/2009 11:25:21 AM , Rating: 2
Which means it'll be crap. Just ask Focus, VW, Chrysler owners. I drove a german built euro Focus and then a mexico built US focus and there was no comparison. None at all.
Same deal with chrysler and VW. Passats are actually reliable, since they're not made in Mexico.




RE: Nice car, shame it'll be built in Mexico
By psychobriggsy on 12/2/2009 12:54:23 PM , Rating: 2
The German built cars are great. They just seem to pay more attention and care when assembling.


By Jeffk464 on 12/2/2009 1:19:59 PM , Rating: 2
Don't forget that a lot of nissan stuff is made in Mexico. We used to find a lot of quality issues with it.


By GreenEnvt on 12/2/2009 1:22:45 PM , Rating: 2
The euro focus and us focus are totally different cars. I'm not saying your point about build quality in Germany being higher is invalid, but you can't compare riding in those two, they just are not the same car (though soon will be I believe).


By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 11:04:03 PM , Rating: 2
Depends on where you get your reliability data. There's ample evidence they are merely average reliability for 2005 and newer, worse than average for 2004 and older, worse still after about 5 years aging.


car commercial?
By kattanna on 12/2/2009 10:56:59 AM , Rating: 2
am i the only one that got the feeling while reading this article that they were reading a car sales commercial pitch?




RE: car commercial?
By Bull Dog on 12/2/2009 11:03:52 AM , Rating: 1
no you weren't


RE: car commercial?
By mdogs444 on 12/2/2009 11:22:47 AM , Rating: 1
Yup, we did just get a sales pitch. The first line says it all:
quote:
Well engineered and attractive

The car isn't even out yet, so how do you know its reliability & dependability? Based on what? Attractive to who? That's and opinion, not a fact.


RE: car commercial?
By psychobriggsy on 12/2/2009 12:43:10 PM , Rating: 3
The Fiesta has been sold in Europe for decades, and this car shares 60% of the components of the latest version. Unless Ford's US engineers have sprinkled fail on the design...

Too small for me, and the Fiat 500 is more attractive, but it's a good, reliable vehicle.


RE: car commercial?
By Spivonious on 12/2/2009 11:26:24 AM , Rating: 1
Yeah, it read like a press release.


Nope
By damianrobertjones on 12/2/2009 11:52:59 AM , Rating: 2
Airbags.

I'm not too sure on airbags as after my partner broke her sternum when the airbag hit her with force. I talked her out of the car and she was covered in bruises and severe cheast pain (Obviously) from where the air bag struck.

I walked free with only a scratch on my finger.

The nets littered with the same story, with many, many people experiencing broken sternums.

Trouble is.... if they had to recall car airbags.... Never going to happen. :(




RE: Nope
By ussfletcher on 12/2/2009 12:20:41 PM , Rating: 2
Better a broken sternum than a smashed face and cracked skull.


RE: Nope
By Cheesew1z69 on 12/2/2009 12:21:58 PM , Rating: 2
Broken sternum or death? Broken sternum sounds a hell of a lot better then dying.


RE: Nope
By Anonymous88 on 12/2/2009 12:40:00 PM , Rating: 2
The airbags issue though too is part of a bigger difference in terms of the differing US and European safety standards and habits of driving. The US standards are based essentially on taking/absorbing impacts whereas European standards are based on avoidance/minimizing impacts. This also accounts for why european cars typically handle better then american cars-they HAVE too in many ways. As has been pointed out, the driving habits US vs European are also vastly different due to many other differences. Bottom line though is that in the states driving is more of a chore, where in Europe it is almost more of a luxury. A great example is talking with my grandfather about riding a motorcycle, (he came over from germany in the late 60's) he used to ride over there, but thought i was insane for wanting to do so here due to the recklessness/carelessness shown by the typical american driver. Since i'm young (and also a former OTR truck driver) I'm not going to listen, but i think it really highlights the differences.

As to the airbag argument, it also depends on the year and make of the vehicle and the size of the occupant. When airbags first came out, they stunk! They'd leave nasty burns and you'd be sick for a day or two among other side effects-my dad took one in the chest from our 93 chrysler minivan....not fun, but as pointed out, still better then hitting a vinyle/metal/plastic dash or instrument panel. The newer airbags are much nicer-I took one from a ranger as a passenger and from a late 90's jetta as a driver and walked away without a scratch or sickness-especially in the ranger I'm seriously thankful for the bag and I'm sure many are too.

As for the mpg thing, yeah I'm shocked at how little it seems gas engines have evolved. My beater saturn (93, manual trans, sohc engine) gets 40mpg highway and it cost me all of a $1000 used, so seeing a car like this although nice, doesnt really strike me as a huge improvement.....


Why not GM?
By 3minence on 12/2/2009 11:18:04 AM , Rating: 2
What went right with Ford but not with GM and Chrysler? Didn't Henry Fords Grandson take over at Ford a few years back and that's when they began a return to affordable quality?

GM seems to sell overpriced, gas guzzling, junk. However Ford now seems to sell quality cars which includes everything from large trucks to small vehicles like this. They both deal with the same union (USW), yet Ford seems to be doing something right. What am I missing?




RE: Why not GM?
By ussfletcher on 12/2/2009 12:18:08 PM , Rating: 2
There were a number of Fords in charge of Ford over the years.. But I actually think they ran the company worse, and many successes have only come after the current management came into power.

Are you honestly suggesting that all GM vehicles are overpriced junk? Some of their cars are junk, just the same as any manufacturer, but surely the same couldn't be said for the Malibu or any Cadillac or Buick. (Perhaps 'overpriced' if you are looking for a cheap 4-banger, just personal preference)

The automakers deal with the UAW on an individual basis, it just so happens Ford played hardball and got a lot of concessions that GM simply couldn't.


RE: Why not GM?
By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 11:08:28 PM , Rating: 2
Put simply, you're ignorant of models offered and heavily stereotyping based upon rants about vehicles years ago. Years ago Ford made a lot of crap too. GM's main problem was manufacturing overheads, unions, etc.


Is this really news?
By probedb on 12/2/2009 11:42:49 AM , Rating: 2
So what if it gets 40MPG, so do lots of other cars over here as far as I know?

Try paying £1.20 per LITRE for petrol and then you'll get used to efficiency ;)




RE: Is this really news?
By ElFenix on 12/2/2009 12:44:27 PM , Rating: 2
you're aware your gallon is quite a bit larger than a US gallon and so cars go further on your gallon than on a US gallon, correct? you're also aware that the tests probably aren't the same and so aren't directly comparable, correct?


RE: Is this really news?
By jjmcubed on 12/3/2009 10:12:50 AM , Rating: 2
He is talking about a Liter. One Liter in the US is the same as one Liter in the UK or anywhere else. In the US we don't price it by Liter, but you can break it down easily.


By invidious on 12/2/2009 1:49:52 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You can get it with one of two attractive transmissions -- a five-speed manual transmission or Ford's new six-speed PowerShift electronic dual clutch automatic transmission.


So is this a car commercial or something? Why do you need to call them "attractive" transmissions? The whole blog reads like Ford wrote it themself.




By mindless1 on 12/2/2009 11:11:42 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, either that or personal bias weighs heavy, but I don't pay a subscription to view this 'site so much can be forgiven.


Looks Pretty Good
By 67STANG on 12/2/2009 10:38:27 AM , Rating: 2
The hatch that is. The coupe looks like steel diarrhea.

Pretty sure the hatch will be an instant sales success-- especially at under $15,000




top gear
By aapocketz on 12/2/2009 12:47:04 PM , Rating: 2
Check out the top gear review of the ford fiesta, the full version is on youtube (sorry cant find a link, just search). It may make you want one.




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