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All-electric Nissan Mixim concept car.
Nissan has unveiled big plans to conquer the Portuguese auto maker, test the waters for international electric efforts

Auto fans willing to test the electric vehicle waters have a lot to be happy about.  With the Chevy Volt , the Tesla Roadster, the $300,000 Lightning GT, and many other electric models from various automakers seeing consumer production within 2 years, many will finally be able to pique their curiosity about the electric experience.

Fans of Tokyo-based Nissan Motor Co. and French partner Renault SA will only have to wait a little bit longer with the company bringing electric cars to the U.S. and Japan in 2010 in time to compete with the production Chevy Volt.  Nissan also announced that it would enter the worldwide electric car fray in full with a global release in 2012.

Now there's new word from the company that those living in Portugal will get to enjoy an electric car a bit earlier.  Nissan and Renault announced a new special partnership with Portugal's government to bring its electric cars to the nation a year early in 2011.  Carlos Ghosn, chief executive of the French and Japanese pair of auto manufacturers, and Portuguese Prime Minister Jose Socrates announced the partnership Wednesday, with PM Socrates saying that the government would take an active role in promoting the vehicles and making them easier to fuel.

Fortunately for other auto fans outside the U.S. and Japan, Portugal is not alone in receiving the cars early -- Israel and Denmark will get them as well in 2011.  Project Better Place, based in Palo Alto, Calif., is promoting their mass marketing.

While other companies are splitting their energy between hydrogen fuel cell vehicles and electric cars, Nissan is forsaking fuel cells to focus purely on electric cars.  Nissan Senior Vice President Minoru Shinohara states, "We are feeling more strongly than ever that we must speed up our development of electric vehicles."

Nissan is in talks with parking lot and railway companies to build charging stations across Portugal as a part of an improved infrastructure, which it hopes to also deploy in the U.S. and Japan to support the vehicles.  While it’s easy to plug-in at home, the new charge stations would quickly charge the vehicle's batteries when taking longer trips, helping it continue gas-free operation and saving the driver valuable dollars (or euros).

Proponents of electric cars, including manufacturers like Nissan, are also pushing for electric car perks like tax breaks, preferential highways lanes and other incentives from the government in U.S., Portugal, and abroad.  Nissan worries that the higher price will leave many customers viewing the cars as an expensive experiment, but it feels given the proper support, they will be well received.

Yasuaki Iwamoto, auto analyst with Okasan Securities Co. says the electric car market is a tough sell.  He states, "It's still a very new technology and so much remains to be seen.  It's unlikely people are suddenly going to switch in big numbers from gas-engine vehicles."

Portugal, like its neighbor Spain, may be an ideal place for the vehicles as it has embraced green technology, especially wind and solar.  Says Mr. Socrates, "This agreement with Renault-Nissan will place Portugal also on the front line in terms of sustainable mobility with zero-emission vehicles.  Promoting electric cars in Portugal will reduce our dependence on imported oil and will contribute to a cleaner environment."

Mr. Shinohara says prospects are looking good in Japan as well, with the average driver only commuting just 12 miles thanks to the high population density.

Nissan has conspicuously not announced deals of how its electric cars will operate.  Whereas GM and others have extensively detailed their upcoming models, Nissan is an enigma.  Will their cars support gas tank fueled generators?  What will the range be?  No one knows outside Nissan, and the company is remaining quiet.

However, whatever the car it delivers, it can expect fierce competition from other national brands in its homeland.  Fuji Heavy Industries, which makes Subaru cars and Mitsubishi Motors Corp. will both launch electric vehicles in Japan in 2009.  Mitsubishi's vehicle goes 99 miles on a charge, while Subaru's goes 50 miles.  These ranges may be too light for rural U.S. drivers, but they work well for packed Japan.

Mitsubishi will be also selling models in the U.S. in 2009, hoping urban buyers in particular snatch up the gas-free auto.  It plans to deploy in Europe in 2010, beating Nissan to the market by a year in Portugal/Denmark and two years in the rest of Europe.

One thing is known about the Nissan vehicles -- they will sport lithium ion batteries.  The batteries will be produced by Automotive Energy Supply Corp., a joint venture between Nissan and Japanese electronics maker NEC Corp. to produce batteries for electric vehicles, headed by President Masahiko Otsuka. 

Nissan/Renault's singular focus on electric and its interesting focus on infrastructure may end up carrying it to success.



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Apartments/Condos?
By skeeter123 on 7/10/2008 3:11:39 PM , Rating: 5
People always say this is great for urban areas, but I'm wondering how are people who live in apartments or condos supposed to plugs these in? Will you need a grappling hook to shoot it to your 5th floor apartment?




RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Solandri on 7/10/2008 3:41:05 PM , Rating: 3
If you can't afford a garage, you're supposed to use public transportation. ;)

There will be some rough spots during the transition. Once it's completed, I assume the infrastructure would have plug-ins at pretty much every parking space. When you plug your car in, a coded ID would get sent to the power company so they'd know who to bill (kinda like using your credit card at the gas station, except set up so nobody could swap the plug to their car after you've left).

That was really the intent of the EV mandate in California. It wasn't "EVs are being held back by the oil/car companies, so we'll force them to build them" like has been portrayed here in past discussions. It was to get past the chicken and egg problem. Without charging stations, EVs were limited in where they could go so people wouldn't build/buy them. Without EVs, there was no incentive to build charging stations. The EV mandate was really about getting the ball rolling on building EV infrastructure.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Grast on 7/10/2008 4:10:13 PM , Rating: 3
One small point to your eutopian idea? Where does the electricity for all of these plug-in vehicles come from? How do you suppose the electric distrobution system be upgraded to handle this new load? Where do all of the batteries generated by these electric car get deposed?

These are all questions when anwsered explain why the EV was a failure and cost effective at this time. As you pointed out, this topic has been discussed extremely often on this blog. Simply hoping that a technology can do the job with little real evidence does not make the technology viable.

We need a replacement energy carrier and batteries as storage devices are not the anwser. I see no reason to pollute the earth with high levels of heavy metals and lithium for this so called green effort.

Later...


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Solandri on 7/10/2008 4:30:05 PM , Rating: 3
1. The electricity for these cars represents less energy than is burned by current cars in fuel.

2. As I said below, there's plenty of excess electricity generating capacity overnight.

3. I have no problem with EVs dying the way they did. They need to be shelved until battery technology improves by an order of magnitude or we find a suitable alternative.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By TomZ on 7/10/2008 5:06:33 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
As I said below, there's plenty of excess electricity generating capacity overnight.

That's not exactly a solution, for two reasons:

1. What about people who need or want to charge up during the day, e.g., someone arriving home from work around 5pm and wants to recharge so he/she can drive again later in the evening?

2. There isn't even close to enough excess capacity at night to handle any kind of large scale EV usage in this country. Do the math.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By clovell on 7/10/2008 5:36:20 PM , Rating: 2
> 1. What about people who need or want to charge up during the day, e.g., someone arriving home from work around 5pm and wants to recharge so he/she can drive again later in the evening?

PHEV

> 2. There isn't even close to enough excess capacity at night to handle any kind of large scale EV usage in this country. Do the math.

I prefer to use yours ;)


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Irenicus on 7/10/2008 4:38:31 PM , Rating: 1
Calm down man and get up to date. Power during peak times is an issue, but for most of the day this is not an issue as there is excess power. Conversely, stations could be wired to charge MORE during peak times to charge, thus discouraging this charge window. Another possibility is allowing cars to be charged during the day, allowing the option of the energy companies to take power out of the car battery during spikes of energy usage. This is a win win, those spikes of power beyond their allotted capacity cost them ALOT of extra money, by tapping a portion of energy in car batteries during some momentary peaks it would allow for savings for the energy companies, in exchange, you may even get a charge for free or reduced cost.

As for battery disposal, I expect the batteries will be recycled as the lithium will become increasingly valuable. Again, do not go off the rails before the details are revealed.

As for energy carriers, you have two choices in the foreseeable future, batteries, ultra capacitors, or some combination of the two. Super high density ultra capacitors would be ideal due to faster charge times and vatly improved robustness, but until these come online we are stuck with batteries, and that is OK, just as nuclear waste is OK, it can be managed.

What is NOT, EVER going to happen is getting everyone to bike to work, or van pool, this economy is built around cars in most areas and there it will stay. And for the foreseeable future Freight will be using diesel for a long time. And EVERYTHING travels by trucks at some point. Don't like this reality, tough, and grow up. Learn to live with the world we have, and make the improvements we can make, without cutting off limbs as some ultra greens would have us do.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Spuke on 7/10/2008 5:24:10 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Calm down man and get up to date. Power during peak times is an issue, but for most of the day this is not an issue as there is excess power.
Maybe your state has excess power but California doesn't even have enough power to run people's A/C's during the summer without rolling blackouts/brownouts. And shifting the plug-in times to off peak hours will eventually turn the off peak hours to peak hours.

And before you say BS, consider a swamp cooler (evaporative cooler) is just a simple electric motor turning a fan. An electric car will require more power than that and I can see the difference running the swamp cooler makes in my electric bill. Sure it's cheaper than running the A/C but it draws noticeably more power than not running it. An electric car will be more like running the A/C continuously for most of the night.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By clovell on 7/10/2008 5:38:55 PM , Rating: 5
All good points, gents. Recall, though, that there wasn't exactly a nationwide infrastructure for gasoline filling stations when Henry Ford started producing autos en masse.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By diabloazul126 on 7/10/2008 7:07:54 PM , Rating: 1
Wasn't the whole, 'rolling blackout' just Enron turning off power plants to decrease supply? I'm sure we(California) use a lot of juice, but I'm not sure if we're to the point of blackouts just yet.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Spuke on 7/10/2008 10:11:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Wasn't the whole, 'rolling blackout' just Enron turning off power plants to decrease supply?
Nope! They still go on but only when there's a heat wave. As a matter of fact, there were some at the earlier this week. If it didn't happen in your area, then you're lucky.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Tsuwamono on 7/10/2008 10:36:10 PM , Rating: 1
Not lucky, just lives in a better neighborhood. Who's the power company going to turn power off to? a project or Malibu...


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Spuke on 7/11/2008 1:07:00 AM , Rating: 2
It has nothing to do with a better neighborhood. Malibu, Calabasas, etc have had rolling blackouts before.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By TheriusDrake on 7/10/2008 7:28:27 PM , Rating: 2
The problem with power during peek times is people using their AC systems, which pull 30 to 80amps in homes, and way way beyond this for commerical systems. There is no way that the amount of power needed to charge a car system over night (which is when people would be charging the cars the most, on average) could compare to the power being used from the grid when all those AC systems are running during peek times.

I don't know how much these systems are going to pull to charge, but it shouldn't be any where close to running a 2 to 5 ton AC or heating system.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/10/2008 7:43:55 PM , Rating: 4
> "I don't know how much these systems are going to pull to charge, but it shouldn't be any where close to running a 2 to 5 ton AC or heating system"

Let's do the math. The GM Volt has a 16 KWH battery capacity. That will most likely be charged at a bit under 15 amps (the max a standard NEMA plug can draw) for a draw of, say, 1500 watts ... what your standard hair dryer pulls.

That's a 10 hour charge time, at a rate about half what a 4 ton A/C unit pulls....but an A/C unit doesn't generally run 100% of the time, even on the hottest days. Meaning charging even a single car might average a higher draw than the A/C unit.

Also, a single household might charge 2 or even 3 cars at once, for a draw well above even a 5 ton system on the hottest of days.

But the biggest problem is that, while many will charge overnight, some will not. They'll charge during the day, boosting peak usage even higher.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Spuke on 7/10/2008 10:13:25 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks for the math Masher!


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Eri Hyva on 7/11/2008 1:13:43 AM , Rating: 2
The Chevy Volt regular slow charging time with 110V is about 6 hours, and even the US version of the car accepts 220V

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=12324...


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/11/2008 9:41:14 AM , Rating: 2
The information I have on the Volt says a 16KWh pack, not 8KWh. I'm not sure if a random poster on the GM Volt website is a definitive source or not.

As for accepting 220v, sure -- but you have to find a plug capable of outputting it. Most homes have only a couple of these prewired...and they're already taken up by the washer/dryer.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Eri Hyva on 7/11/2008 11:29:57 AM , Rating: 2
You are half way there.

Only 8 kWh of that 16kWh battery will be used (maximum charge 80%, minimum charge 30%). For battery life purposes.So the battery will never be charged 100% or depleted under 30%. The aim is 40+ mile electric range @ 10 years old battery pack. A brand new Volt would get closer to 50 miles electric.

Calm down and read gm-volt.com and forget the talk about random posters. There is some serious new information given to Lyle from GM in last 6 months.

Well, sure, if have the means to buy $35-40k electric car, you can afford couple hundred bucks for a 220v plug in your garage to halve the charging time.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Spuke on 7/11/2008 3:11:25 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Calm down and read gm-volt.com and forget the talk about random posters.
Masher is always calm, you must be new here.

quote:
Well, sure, if have the means to buy $35-40k electric car, you can afford couple hundred bucks for a 220v plug in your garage to halve the charging time.
It's not just a plug in the wall dude. There's the whole rip out your dry wall thing to run extra cable back to your breaker panel. But if adding the extra 220 line increases your current over the limit set by your main breaker then you'll need to increase the size of your main breaker. And changing that isn't as simple as swapping breakers either. Your power company will have to check the line coming into your house to see if it can handle extra current. If not, then you'll need extra or a new line run. You could be paying as much as $3000 JUST for the service upgrade.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Targon on 7/11/2008 7:26:44 AM , Rating: 2
The problem will also show up for those who drive for a living. I drive to and from my customers as a part of my job(I run my own business, so it's not like I can pass off expenses), so unless the cars can go 200+ miles on a single charge without degrading to only 50 miles after four years of ownership, the idea that we would need to wait until the end of the day to re-charge just would not work.

For those in the shipping industry, the electric requirement would be higher, and I do not see a way to convert that industry over to all electric. The whole discussion on this really doesn't work in many places where people need to drive 30+ miles each way as a part of their jobs and make multiple trips in a single day.

Those who can not afford to "garage" their cars tend to be those who just can not afford to buy their own homes as well. Unlike some parts of the country where a NICE house might cost only $150,000 to $175,000, there are many places where home prices are upwards of $200,000 for a crumbling shack that needs a LOT of work to make it safe to live in. Moving is not an option for many people as well, so it isn't a choice, but a requirement to live in these high-cost areas.

The other problem is that if everyone is charging their cars up after even 6pm, that will shift the peak hours to that time, so people will be forced to charge their cars up at 2am just to avoid these "peak hour premium electric prices".


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By OxBow on 7/11/2008 11:34:17 AM , Rating: 2
I've talked about this before. It's people like you that we need to conserve for! We will still need gas and deisel for our commercial sector. As the price of gas and deisel go up, the ones getting the most squeezed is the commercial sector, since this bites directly at the bottom line and, eventually, causes them to raise prices which then cascade to other sector problems.

If you're commuting to work, driving to a soccer game or getting groceries, you should have the option of purchasing a vehicle that doesn't rely on gasoline. That should save you money at the pump (electricity, even with increased demand, is still cheaper than gas) and should reduce demand at the pump which will help businesses to deliver their services.

Let's get some options that allow us to stop wasting gas on things that can be done better in other ways.

btw- That mitsubishi they listed that could travel 99 miles on a charge is quite tantalizing. I'd sure like to know more about it.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By phxfreddy on 7/12/2008 2:27:49 AM , Rating: 2
mmm.... and I can see the bill slots that will be on the sides of the plug in boxes. Market forces will cause the equilibrium price of electricity to charge these things to be round about the same as paying for gasoline.

Thus the individual should not expect to see and benefits on the money side.

The benefits will only be

-1- air pollution in big cities will decrease - big good point

-2- the money will stay in the country instead of hemmoraging outside of the country. Since the dollar is in collapse I can see that being a big positive also.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By HrilL on 7/10/2008 3:45:32 PM , Rating: 3
That’s a good point seeing how a lot of people don't even get a parking spot at their apartments. And I doubt you'll be able to run an extension cord from the 5th floor.

We might be seeing plug in meters next to parking meters. So you can pay to park and charge your car at the same time.

Also I don't think the power infrastructure capable of powering everything we already use + everyone’s car. In some areas they can't even keep up with peak usage during a hot day. Add in a few million cars that need to be charged as well and there is a big problem.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Solandri on 7/10/2008 3:56:06 PM , Rating: 3
Peak electricity use is during mid to late afternoon. During the evening there's actually a lot of excess capacity available. So charging your car overnight shouldn't be a problem. Charging your car at work during the day might be, but we can jump that hurdle when we get there.

The bigger issue IMHO is that the majority of our electric power generation is still coal. In some ways the obsession with electric vehicles reminds me of people's double-standard when it comes to eating meat vs. hunting. They think you're a terrible person if you kill the animal yourself, but they have no problem with someone else killing the animal for them so they can have a burger.

People seem to think it's terrible to drive a gas/diesel car which pumps out pollution, but have no problem with driving electric cars which run off electricity generated by someone else pumping out pollution. Our electricity generating infrastructure needs to change - replace the coal plants with nuclear, and replace those with green renewables as they become technologically and economically feasible. Otherwise, switching from gas to electric may actually be worse for the environment than switching from gas to hybrid.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By ChronoReverse on 7/10/2008 4:15:33 PM , Rating: 2
Even an old coal plant is a lot more efficient than the best ICE available up to and including hybrids.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Solandri on 7/10/2008 4:41:34 PM , Rating: 2
Sure, the coal plant is more efficient. But to get that energy from the coal plant to move your vehicle, you have transmission losses in the power lines, then conversion inefficiencies when storing it in the batteries, and hysteresis losses when converting it back into electrical energy for the motors. And coal burns dirtier than gasoline to begin with, adding additional costs for scrubbers, as well as pollutants that make it through into the atmosphere that aren't as prevalent in gasoline (sulfur, radioisotopes like thorium and uranium, etc).


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/10/2008 5:23:09 PM , Rating: 5
Line losses average around 7% in the US. Coulometric charging efficiency is horrible for NiHM batteries (about 33% loss), but very little for Li-Ion (~1-2% loss). Electric motor efficiency can top 99% easily.

Over its entire RPM range, an ICE is lucky to hit 25% efficiency...the best ultra-high temperature coal plants are bumping 50%. So from an energetics perspective, use of coal is still a net win for LiIon-based EVs, even if one ignores the portion generated from nuclear, hydro, and other sources.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By oTAL (blog) on 7/11/2008 4:17:21 AM , Rating: 2
Furthermore, one can't take into account the distribution costs of electricity (line losses) without taking into account the distribution costs of gasoline. Even if you disregard oil tankers and the large scale part of the distribution, you still end up with a very large number of trucks wasting energy to take gas to every station. I bet that would make a dent to the overall efficiency of gasoline.
Furthermore, those trucks don't drive themselves, which adds costs. (Lets wait until people start complaining that the electric cars are stealing jobs.)


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Aloonatic on 7/11/2008 5:28:48 AM , Rating: 2
With the soaring price off "scrap" metals on the open market "line loss" is taking on a new meaning in many areas of the UK.

I must admit that I never really got Power electrical stuff, all those phases and what have you. So I freely accept that my questions may be pointless....

So, how will local substation cope with a sudden rise in the amount of power/elastictrickery coming down the wires?

Will they have to be upgraded/replaced?

Or is the power draw not actually that great?

Could home grown power (solar/wind) generation be enough to get your car to a charge point if that sort of thing is required?

It's a good point about the jobs thing though.

Over here truck divers for Shell have been on strike for a few day recently, demanding a pay rise which they got after a 4 day strike. A 14% rise was won, taking average pay for tanker drivers to £42,000 ~ $82,000. They aren't going to be happy at being replaced by a cable?!?

*Sorry if these questions have been asked else where, if so please ignore.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Bruneauinfo on 7/11/2008 1:04:17 PM , Rating: 2
i'm not going to even pretend i can do this accurately, but i think this whole argument can be taken to infinite levels can't it? because don't we also have to consider the delivery of coal to the power station as well as the mining of coal. and the same for pumping crude oil for the gasoline and the distilling process. then there's the work force that needs to arrive on the job site to drill the oil and mine the coal. and which is more energy efficient in their exploration methods?

the point of my argument is that whichever energy source you look at which source pollutes the most isn't as easy to answer as a comment in a blog.

i'm guessing we're going to EV only because we can't pump crude oil and convert it to fuel fast and cheaply enough to compete with electric production. and we're innovating in electric power production - new businesses - more than we are in crude oil exploration. so EVs are going to get promoted from that standpoint as well.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Grast on 7/10/2008 4:19:35 PM , Rating: 2
Here Here,

Electric cars have two major current draw backs.

1. As Solandri stated, the source for current electricity is dirty.
2. Most electric cars rely on large batteries to store the collected energy.

I believe that Masher has stated it often and correctly. In order move away from fossil fuels, we need a source of cheap energy and a replacement energy carrier. Nuclear is the most economical and feasible source for cheap and clean energy. Hydrogen is the current forerunner for a replacement energy carrier but has issues.

If nuclear was made the standard for electrical generation and hydrogen production was from electrollosis, I believe we would have the solution..

In my research, the major drawback to current fuel cells is hydrocarbon poisoning. This is due to the method used to create the majority of hydrogen from natural gas. If hydrogen was produced from water via electrollsys and a carbon free method of storing and transporting the hydrogen was created, we could elliminate one major issue with fuel cells.

I have babbled on.

In the end, I do not believe that current electric cars are the awnser. They are destined to be just a quick footnote in our quest for fossile fuel indepenance.

Later..


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By cochy on 7/10/2008 4:39:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
1. As Solandri stated, the source for current electricity is dirty.


Maybe for you. But in Europe as stated in the article wind/solar is becoming big, especially wind power and tidal power in some countries.

For me here in Quebec we use hydro. Plus we sell loads of hydro power to the northeastern US, so you people there get pretty clean power from us.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By TomZ on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Solandri on 7/10/2008 5:04:09 PM , Rating: 2
Actually Canada is about 60% hydro, 19% coal, 12% nuclear, 5% natural gas, 2% oil, 2% other.
http://www.cec.org/files/PDF/POLLUTANTS/Pres-Harol...

The U.S. is 51% coal, 19% nuclear, 15% natural gas, 9% hydro, 4% oil, 2% other.

Canada has an advantage in that they have few people in a large land area (so lots of miles of river per capita). So much so that they're one of the few countries which uses more energy per capita than the U.S.

http://earthtrends.wri.org/text/energy-resources/v...


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By TomZ on 7/10/2008 5:10:35 PM , Rating: 1
You're looking at statistics for electricity production, not energy .

http://www.eia.doe.gov/cabs/Canada/Background.html

Since we're talking about energy policy in a broad sense, you can't just look at electricity production; you have to look at the big picture.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Solandri on 7/10/2008 5:15:32 PM , Rating: 3
I thought we were talking about electricity production for electric cars?

You do have a point though, that if the energy source for cars shifted from oil to electric, the percentage of electricity produced by hydro would drop unless there was a massive buildup of more hydroelectric generation plants. But that was kinda my point - that we need to build up electricity generating capacity that doesn't rely on coal.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By HrilL on 7/11/2008 5:10:16 PM , Rating: 2
I think Canada being a lot colder than the US has something to do with them using more as well.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By cochy on 7/11/2008 10:21:27 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Answer: small fraction. And the remainder comes from "dirty" sources.


I said "becoming big". That means their mind set is already on that path. Which is more than can said of the US, which is what people here are complaining about.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By cochy on 7/11/2008 10:25:49 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Also, FYI, Canada is only 25% hydro, which is impressive, but it also means that 75% is coming from "dirty" sources (in your terminology).


Oh and thank you for changing the context of my comment from Quebec to Canada, in an attempt (seems your numbers were off anyway) to strike down my post =)


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By 4play on 7/10/2008 4:42:32 PM , Rating: 2
I would like to point out that hydrogen cars require hydrogen stations. We already have infrastructure in place for electric cars.

Hydrogen also doesn't have the energy density gasoline has even in compressed forms (limited range). EVs will continue to get better range.

quote:
"1. As Solandri stated, the source for current electricity is dirty."

It is still cleaner than your vehicle's gas engine, if you measure in CO2/mile. Not to mention that electrical power can gome from green sources.

Hydrogen tech is vaporware. Electrical cars are here, now.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By TomZ on 7/10/2008 5:17:03 PM , Rating: 1
Well, we don't really have the infrastructure for electric cars in place either. After all, we would have to add a lot of power plants and upgrade the power grid considerably in order to sustain any large-scale usage of EVs.

Electrical are vaporware. Hybrid card are here, now. :o)

Hybrids are the only reasonable solution that can be rolled out in large scale while useing existing infrastructure. But of course they mainly benefit you for city driving, not so much for highway.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By 4play on 7/10/2008 5:32:00 PM , Rating: 2
Electrical cars won't have any significant impact on the grid for a long time. The switch wont happen overnight. If there is demand for more electricity they will build more power plants. Utility companies are more than happy to meet growing demand.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/10/2008 5:41:21 PM , Rating: 2
> "If there is demand for more electricity they will build more power plants."

A new power plant can take more than 10 years to build in this country...and thats if it can get regulatory approval, and not get bogged down in legal challenges by environmental groups. In a state like California, new plant applications are routinely blocked.

In any case, even 3-4 years of strong EV car sales would create additional demand that many regions would be unable to meet with their current capacity.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/10/2008 5:53:03 PM , Rating: 2
> "I would like to point out that hydrogen cars require hydrogen stations. We already have infrastructure in place for electric cars."

There are already hundreds of hydrogen filling stations already in service or slated to be built in the very near future:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_highway

As for electric cars, any substantial use of them will require large infrastructure changes as well -- charging stations outside your home, additional expansion of power plants and distribution grids, etc.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By lightfoot on 7/10/08, Rating: 0
RE: Apartments/Condos?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/10/2008 7:48:26 PM , Rating: 2
> "That's more than two per state! "

If spread out evenly, sure. However, they're being grouped together in corridors, to provide adequate coverage for a given area.

In any case, its more of an infrastructure than exists for long-range EV travel. You run out of juice away from home now, you don't have even that "two per state" figure to fall back on. You're just stuck, period.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By 4play on 7/10/2008 8:35:45 PM , Rating: 2
tow your car to the nearest electrical outlet :p


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Spuke on 7/10/2008 10:30:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
tow your car to the nearest electrical outlet
And wait ten more hours on top of the two you spent waiting for a tow truck.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By lightfoot on 7/10/2008 10:36:16 PM , Rating: 2
I still bet that you can find an electrical outlet a fair amount closer than your nearest hydrogen station. Other than Kansas, most states have been wired for Edison's new electric light.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Eri Hyva on 7/11/2008 1:15:40 AM , Rating: 2
You can quick charge the li-ion battery back to 80% capacity in 10 minutes

http://www.dailytech.com/article.aspx?newsid=12324...


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/11/2008 9:38:51 AM , Rating: 2
No you can't...not from a standard 110v or even a 220v plug. The amp draw is far too high.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 4:21:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
we can jump that hurdle when we get there.


No we really can't. Building a new power plant is not a few month affair. It takes years to just get the permits for it. Then a few more years to build it.

You have to have the infrastructure first. Places like California have little to no spare spare capacity.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Irenicus on 7/10/2008 4:43:01 PM , Rating: 2
YES, we really can, IF the transition period includes plug in hybrids, that is the whole point, you can use both means of energy to propel the car. It is the perfect transition vehicle, and I WANT them working on the tech now to streamline it SOONER rather than later. And so should you.

When more robust energy charging and batteries and ultra capacitors come online then things will be that much easier to adopt.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 4:53:05 PM , Rating: 2
No what I want is the government to stop getting involved in trying to force a product down our throats by subsidizing one industry to make it affordable and doing everything they can to raise the costs of another to make it less affordable, simply because they don't like it. And then lying to us that its bad for the environment.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By 4play on 7/10/2008 5:03:50 PM , Rating: 2
The government isn't forcing EV's down anybody's throat. Car manufacturers are building them. It isn't the government that is increasing gas prices either if that what you were refering to by "doing everything they can to raise the costs of another"


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Aloonatic on 7/11/2008 5:43:10 AM , Rating: 2
Car manufacturers are only building them because governments (in the EU that is) are responsible for high fuel prices and are doing nothing to bring them down, which they (theoretically) could do by simply reducing the massive duties that have been placed on petrol/diesel.

Living Green is the new Living Rich as far as many EU politicians are concerned.

In the UK Gordon is trying his darnedest to get people to convert.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/e...

Things may be different in the USA and other countries where people are free to make their own decisions however, and governments don't think that they own the will of the people and should tell them how to live their lives.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By HrilL on 7/11/2008 5:15:13 PM , Rating: 2
I'm pretty sure the Government of the UK tells their populace how to live their lives a lot more then our Government here in the States does.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Aloonatic on 7/11/2008 5:47:42 PM , Rating: 2
And I'm pretty sure that that is exactly what I wrote above.

Blimey, some of you Americans are so defensive sometimes (why is that?) that you manage to pull an insult out of the jaws of a compliment.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Swaid on 7/12/2008 3:18:15 AM , Rating: 2
No, you're a towel!


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Aloonatic on 7/12/2008 7:44:06 AM , Rating: 2
says you, king towel of towelland :p

*pulls hair and then runs off to tell mommy!!


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Irenicus on 7/10/2008 5:19:11 PM , Rating: 2
Is that a practical sentiment? or a philosophical one?

If the latter, who cares, I want what works best. Oil and energy costs are NOT to me the same type of industry as others, I am NOT philosophically opposed to subsidies IF the subsidies assist in a more robust energy future, within reason.

Higher oil and energy cost is a depressant on EVERYTHING. To just let the market go completely unaided is fine, but what if the cost if non intervention is higher than a slight nudge earlier?

Fix the roof when the sun is shining, not when it is raining, or so the saying goes, I guess my question to you radical libertarian types is is it EVER reasonable to have government intervention?

Brazil did, was this a mistake? philosophical principles do not sway me, I am looking for results, the oil economy is NOT a free market, it is a cartel system, further we have no options for alternatives to this substance at this time, I do not like this reality, and for practical reasons am not opposed to say having the government give tax breaks to ease the initial development cost of a viable tech sooner rather than later.

And electric cars ARE a viable tech, batteries are getting stronger, ultra capacitors are getting higher energy densities, this is NOT pie in the sky stuff, this will be the trend so lets get it going faster.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By masher2 (blog) on 7/10/2008 5:36:06 PM , Rating: 3
> "my question to you radical libertarian types is is it EVER reasonable to have government intervention?"

I don't know how you define reasonable, but from a sheer pragmatic perspective, government intervention is always less efficient than allowing market forces to optimize the correct solution, or mix of solutions. In theory, an omniscient, omnipotent administrator can find the best solution faster than the free market. In practice, however, its always much slower.

As a "radical libertarian" myself, I won't get too upset over government funding pure research into alternatives. But direct subsidies always result in a market distortion that ultimately harms more than it helps.

Rather than wasting tens of billions on tax breaks for cars which may not quite be ready for prime time, investing a much smaller fraction of that into further research would accomplish much more with less. Will building all those extra EVs help advance battery tech? Possibly a little...it can as easily *slow* advancements by taking away focus, and by building a production infrastructure that will resist changes. After all, if I'm a company that just invested $2B in a new factor to produce a certain battery type, I'm not going to be interested in phasing that out until I've recovered those costs.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Solandri on 7/10/2008 6:15:33 PM , Rating: 3
Actually, with energy and food, I think the government should (in fact has a duty to) intervene to assure that there's a small margin of oversupply available. If we're talking iPods or PS3s, then sure, let market forces dictate. If the supply runs short, let the price fluctuate upwards at the whim of the market.

But essentials like food and energy are very inelastic at the low end. You have to eat, you have to get to work somehow. A small shortfall can cause a large spike in prices. The market interprets people dying of starvation simply as a drop in demand. So I feel a little inefficiency is a worthwhile cost to pay for a buffer against short-term spikes in food or energy prices. Call it insurance. As bad as food prices are now, they would be even higher if the U.S. didn't perennially overproduce due to subsidies.

(The amounts of these subsidies are of course debatable. But the overall principle behind them I think is a useful one.)


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Irenicus on 7/10/2008 6:40:22 PM , Rating: 2
Thanks, that is what I would have written if I had thought of it. But I agree completely, I am not against a free market, just not sure there should NEVER be ANY influence from government in some of the more critical industries. And insuring plentiful/cheaper energy buffered against spikes helps everyone.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By TomZ on 7/10/2008 4:53:43 PM , Rating: 3
I disagree. We can change our infrastructure in a 50 or 100-year period if we work hard at it, but not in a 5- or 10-year period. It's just not possible on a large scale basis to change any faster.

Besides, the political climate today in the US is absolutely against building any new power plants, or really anything that has non-zero possible environmental impact. We have decided, as a society, to hold ourselves to such a high environmental standard that we can't do anything any more. Thanks, greenies!


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By lightfoot on 7/10/2008 6:20:28 PM , Rating: 2
The US Interstate Highway system was largely completed in 35 years starting in 1956. That is the entire highway system. The entire Industrial Revolution occured in less than 100 years. Any change to infrastructure could be easily done in as little as 20 years if, as you put it, "we work hard at it."

I doubt our transportation system will look anything like it does today in 20 years. Think of all the changes of the last 20 - bigger cars, more traffic, residential streets with traffic lights, trucking outpacing rail for freight, vastly improved safety, electronic signage, computerized traffic monitoring, etc. In some ways cars already drive (and park) themselves - ABS, ETC, ESC, Adaptive Cruise Control, all are technologies that reduce the skills needed to drive. Most new drivers don't even learn how to drive a manual transmission.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By TomZ on 7/10/2008 7:13:03 PM , Rating: 2
I could probably list 10 reasons why it won't happen. Since time is short, I'll just give you two:

1. Very powerful oil lobby, in combination with a "do nothing" Congress

2. General complacency of the American people

Don't underestimate the magnitude of the forces, rational and otherwise, that oppose change.

Of course, I agree with you that we should be able to move towards positive change, and I think we can in the long run, but it takes decades.

More food for thought...let me ask you a question. Do you think a project like the US Interstate Highway system could be executed by America at this point in our history, if we wanted to for whatever reason?


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By lightfoot on 7/10/2008 10:49:32 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Do you think a project like the US Interstate Highway system could be executed by America at this point in our history, if we wanted to for whatever reason?


Absolutely - If we can spend trillions on second homes and golf memberships for baby boomers there is no doubt that we could spend a small fraction of that on infrastructure, or an arms race, or even a moon shot. The problem isn't that there isn't the money, the will or the political ability, the problem is that the federal budget is consumed by entitlement programs because American citizens can't or won't save for their own future. What our country really needs (and may be getting) is a deep, long and painful recession that makes people double think living their lives on credit. A big government infrastructure program could be sold as the "cure" to such a recession much as the Hoover Dam was used during the Great Depression.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By lightfoot on 7/10/2008 4:37:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
...but have no problem with driving electric cars which run off electricity generated by someone else...

The problem with that line of thought is:
1. Power plants operate much more efficiently than ICE auto engines do.
2. Pollution controls at power plants are held to much higher standards and are continuously maintained.
3. Coal is produced domestically; it is not imported like over 30% of our oil. Also many power plants use natural gas (also domestic) nuclear and hydropower. Wind and solar cannot be added to individual automobiles - they can only be connected to a stationary grid so your renewables require the electric infrastructure.
4. The power grid is existing infrastructure although some upgrades may be needed. Hydrogen and Ethanol are the only replacements (currently) that could be used in autos and neither has infrastructure already in place (oil, natural gas and power do.)
5. The power has to come from somewhere Hydrogen uses more power to create the fuel than the fuel provides when you burn it. More power would have to be generated somewhere on the grid anyway.
6. Power from the grid doesn't consume food stocks. People can't eat coal and natural gas - power plants that run on them won't run up food prices. I don't care if you eat the corn directly or if you eat the beef that came from the cow that did. Corn is FOOD.
7. Power from the grid is cheap and abundant. Coal, natural gas, hydropower and nuclear are all readily available sources of power in the US, and all are cheaper than oil. The US also has an abundance of wind and solar energy just waiting to be captured, which over time can also be made to be affordable sources.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Solandri on 7/10/2008 4:46:27 PM , Rating: 2
Yup, all those are valid issues. My point was that most people's reasoning on this seems to stop at: "Gas car = bad stuff comes out the back = bad. Electric car = nothing comes out the back = good." There are a lot more factors involved than simply how clean your car is.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By psychobriggsy on 7/10/2008 4:35:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
We might be seeing plug in meters next to parking meters. So you can pay to park and charge your car at the same time.


And I'll just unplug your car, run an extension to mine, and thank you for paying for my recharge :D

Recharge & Leave will not work because of the above. It's either in-garage or whilst-present.

With regards to electric cars, here's hoping that they get them down to a reasonable price, reasonable mileage capacity, fast recharges and overall cheaper running costs. This sort of push is what is required to start making a move to the future. I assume the big oil companies now have enough ownership of electricity or fuel cell companies to allow this to continue.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By wirehound on 7/10/2008 5:06:53 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And I'll just unplug your car, run an extension to mine, and thank you for paying for my recharge :D

Recharge & Leave will not work because of the above. It's either in-garage or whilst-present.


Surely with a little innovation we could overcome that problem.

I doubt electric vehicles will use a standard 3-prong 110V connection since it would be too easy to charge your vehicle from any available outlet at someone else's expense.

I can imagine a plug similar to the 220V outlets used to power major appliances (here in Canada), but which locks in place to allow charging from the previously mentioned paid outlets without the worry of someone else using your connection or disconnecting you as a prank. The vehicles themselves could probably be easily programmed not to start while plugged in, as a safety measure.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By 4play on 7/10/2008 4:09:07 PM , Rating: 2
I live in a condo and have a plug...

For those that are plugless, there is a simple solution: buy a gasoline powered car instead!


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By FITCamaro on 7/10/2008 4:36:51 PM , Rating: 2
You gonna drape your extension cord out the window and down several stories? Neither is anyone else.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By 4play on 7/10/2008 4:53:24 PM , Rating: 2
My parking stall has a plug since we have winter over here. I thought this was normal/widespread.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By HrilL on 7/10/2008 7:51:47 PM , Rating: 2
I'm sorry but here in southern California we don't get winter. And we have by far more cars than any other state. So clearly this is a real problem for areas like mine.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By lightfoot on 7/10/2008 5:00:04 PM , Rating: 2
You could retrofit any parking lot for a few thousand dollars and have one outlet per space and the outlet turned on using a simple key operated switch. You could prevent people from unplugging you and plugging themselves in with simple locking tech on the outlet. A single outlet for a home would be less than a $100 installed and could be done for much less if you did it yourself. This is hardly cost prohibitive. The only trick is getting all auto manufacturers to use the same standardized outlet.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By Spuke on 7/10/2008 7:27:25 PM , Rating: 3
It would cost more than a few thousand dollars to retrofit outlets to parking lots. It would entail jack hammering most of the lot to run cable troughs, wires, and etc. Not to mention, where to do connect these new power cables to? It would require a separate power source than already there given the amount of current needed to charge a few to 100+ cars at once.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By lightfoot on 7/10/2008 11:02:10 PM , Rating: 2
Depends on the size of the lot - 10 spaces in front of a typical apartment, townhouse or condo could probably be done for well under $5000 - that's $500 per space which could easily be recouped over two years by charging $20 per month for a wired space.

Larger lots would likely be cheaper on a per space basis.

quote:
Not to mention, where to do connect these new power cables to?

Most large parking lots (strip malls and grocery) are already wired to power lighting.


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By V3ctorPT on 7/11/2008 3:19:54 AM , Rating: 2
MY GOD!!! I live in Portugal and I was very excited about this news 2 days ago... but if that thing is a car... I'll stick to my 1.3 turbo diesel engine... Just to clarify one thing about batteries... I think that u are NOT supposed to plug these things to your own electric instalation, that is why u have the "electric stations", maybe the "special" electric car plug will be expensive... The "electric stations" will have replacement batteries, you just pay the power, those batteries will have locks, will be tested and certified before entering in "your precious" vehicle... I doesn't matter if it has 100Km on it or 100.000km on it, it will be thouroughly (sorry if there's a mistake)tested before it can be used. It's a great idea, we (Portugal) are heavily investing in green energy (eolics, dams, and sea), it will not be enough to power all these cars, but will help. :) Cheaper "cars" to everyone, and with less taxes... And the only tax u pay is going to help the environment...


RE: Apartments/Condos?
By V3ctorPT on 7/11/2008 3:44:27 AM , Rating: 2
"Says Mr. Socrates, "This agreement with Renault-Nissan will place Portugal also on the front line in terms of sustainable mobility with zero-emission vehicles. Promoting electric cars in Portugal will reduce our dependence on imported oil and will contribute to a cleaner environment .""

That is the more important thing out of this story... Trying to not go down as everyone else, as the world economy has seen better days... And the oil prices are just going up. Power plants are more efficient than our gas cars ... and we won't have smog... i live way in the woods :D and I notice the difference between the city and the country side... clean air and silence...