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Nick Yee's serious approach to understanding gaming may have deep seeded results in behavioral research
When it comes to understanding video gamers and their environments, Nick Yee wrote the book

Massively Multiplayer Online Role-Playing Games (MMORPG) are quickly becoming one of the most popular game genres among PC gamers.  In fact, some reports estimate that more than 15 million gamers around the world play video games from the MMORPG genre. 

Modern MMORPGs including World of Warcraft, Everquest II and Star Wars Galaxies, have reached unprecedented popularity.  Blizzard's World of Warcraft, with 8.5 million users across the world, remains the most popular MMORPG -- and possibly the most popular title in gaming history.

Video games have become a popular source of study among scholars around the world, with much research also being done by universities in the United States.  Nick Yee, a Ph.D. candidate at Stanford University, has interviewed more than 40,000 MMORPG gamers, placing a strong emphasis on the psychological and sociological effects of the games.

Much of Yee's research centers around the sociological habits of gamers, both "in-game" and "out-game." Recently, Yee published findings that MMORPG gamers play the game 21 hours per week, with only 7.7 hours spent watching TV.

Research done by Yee points to statistics that show women spend more time per week playing than their male counterparts.  Even though women have traditionally been considered "casual" gamers, they spend more time per week in an MMO game than men, according to another study published by Yee.  "In general, I think we need to rethink the bias in framing women as not being as 'into' a game as men are, when the data tends to point in the opposite direction," Yee said.

In the 3D digital world of Second Life, Yee discovered that male players stand further away when talking to other males and are also less likely to maintain eye contact.  On average, male avatars stood 7.7 feet away from each other, as opposed to mixed-gender pairs standing 6.9 feet apart, according to Yee's research.  Female-female pairs of game players were also more likely to maintain eye contact.    

However, avatars from all genders reportedly looked away from one another if standing close, much like how people in the real world are less likely to make eye contact if on a crowded elevator.  The research was published in the journal Cyberpsychology & Behavior.

While mainstream media tends to focus only on the negative side of MMO playing, there are positive aspects that should be taken under consideration.  For example, leadership and team management can be learned from playing MMOs, Yee reported.  "Very few other social spaces allow players to have their leadership and management skills in a relatively risk-free environment over and over again."

Yee currently conducts research at the Stanford Virtual Human Interaction Lab, located at Stanford University's Department of Communications.  "We're interested in using immersive virtual reality to study how we can break the rules of social interaction in meaningful and productive ways.  For example, can we reduce someone's negative stereotype of the elderly by putting them in the avatar of an elderly person?  If we put someone in a tall avatar, do they become more confident?  If an agent takes 25% of your facial features, are you more likely to become persuaded by it?"

After Yee's first research was published, more researchers and universities are beginning to conduct studies involving video games, specifically MMORPGs.  Carnegie Mellon University and University of Chicago have produced research on the social aspects of MMORPGs over the last two years.

Nick Yee's original research and blog, The Daedalus Project, is still publically available.

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Female gamers
By Trisped on 3/15/2007 6:16:34 PM , Rating: 1
Though he states that the statistics indicate that their are more female gamers then male, he forgets to mention that his survey only covered MMOs which naturally cater more towards females then normal games do. Females are reported to prefer games that include socializing with real people and/or involve collecting feminine objects, like new skins. While MMOs are relatively limited on the latter, they do provide a large amount of socializing.

This is in comparison the vast majority of other games, where there is relatively little socializing except to tell your Ventrilo partners to cap the sniper, and clothing is more to tell teams apart then make your character look good.

That small issue aside, the subject is very interesting. I wonder what value they will pull out of it? Will we be able to pick out socio-paths based on their gaming style? That would be interesting.




RE: Female gamers
By quiksilv3r on 3/15/2007 6:28:37 PM , Rating: 3
He did NOT state that there are more female gamers than male gamers. He stated that when women DID play games, on average, they played more hours than men when they played.


RE: Female gamers
By Trisped on 3/20/2007 5:43:20 PM , Rating: 2
Yes, I did miss read the more female gamers vs more hours logged by female gamers.

Still, he did state that, as you said, "when women DID play games, on average, they played more hours than men when they played." Which is a miss representation of the data. He "has interviewed more than 40,000 MMORPG gamers." But MMOs are not the only kind of game. By throwing out half the data he no longer has backing to state things like females not being casual gamers.

My point is that his assertions over reach the bounds of his inquiries. If I wanted to do a survey of student incomes, but threw out all the students who had some or all of there tuition paid for them, my numbers would reflect an artificially high salary. The same is true here. He didn't take into account the % of free time spent playing MMOs or the amount of time spent playing non-MMOs.


RE: Female gamers
By Iridiah on 4/12/2007 1:57:36 PM , Rating: 2
He didn't take those things into account because his research is only about MMOs: the Daedalus Project is exclusively an MMORPG research project. It's unlikely that Mr. Yee's findings are meant to apply to all PC gamers everywhere; he's only talking about the MMO subset to begin with. He isn't "overreaching the bounds of his inquiries," it's just your reading of his findings that does so.


RE: Female gamers
By bargetee5 on 3/15/2007 7:43:54 PM , Rating: 2
<sarcasm>I'm glad he failed to mention if they weigh more than 140lbs.
</sarcasm>


RE: Female gamers
By senbassador on 3/19/2007 6:45:56 PM , Rating: 1
<sarcasm> Someone should inform these 140+ lb women gamers that there are men out there that are either lonely, desperate, or black. Or all three. </sarcasm>


Something good....
By dgingeri on 3/15/2007 6:30:33 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
While mainstream media tends to focus only on the negative side of MMO playing, there are positive aspects that should be taken under consideration. For example, leadership and team management can be learned from playing MMOs, Yee reported. "Very few other social spaces allow players to have their leadership and management skills in a relatively risk-free environment over and over again."


I have believed this for a very long time. Far too many people argue with me that there is nothing good about games, but sports are nothing but games, so why would they have anything good. Sports are games for the body while video games are games for the mind. they all exercise something different. Games are far from worthless. They can have positive aspects, depending on the game.




RE: Something good....
By Lakku on 3/16/2007 2:26:30 AM , Rating: 2
Sports do more for your body then games do for your mind. Plus, many sports require a fair bit of thinking, even if you don't think that they do. I have yet to play many games that really challenge my mind, aside from things like Brain Age or something geared towards working my mind, for example, Myst. I don't agree with your analogy and think that games, especially MMOs, have little to do with helping you think more or helping your mind.


RE: Something good....
By caqde on 3/16/2007 4:05:38 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Sports do more for your body then games do for your mind. Plus, many sports require a fair bit of thinking, even if you don't think that they do.


Ok.. I'll say it this way it depends on the player. If the player doesn't apply himself to the game then the mind part will be mute. Play a sport and don't apply yourself are you thinking? NO. Play a game and don't apply yourself again are you thinking? NO. But if you apply yourself and try then your mind will give you a challenge that never presented itself to you. FPS's can challenge your eye coordination and reaction times. RTS's (especially TA and Supreme Commander) can improve skills in quickly making decisions. Not sure how these relate to real life much like sport skills exactly how do they help you?

Anyways other games like RPG's (console style) have puzzles to solve some are hard others are well pathetic but they still make you think. The more sophisticated the game engine is the more the player can manipulate the world the more thinking the game can give for them. Again it requires the player to want to manipulate the world if that isn't there then no matter what the medium there won't be much thinking involved.

And just remember I am not ragging on sports. Although I personally don't play them or care that much for them (at least watching and a bit on the playing). Just realize that games and sports do require thinking, but it depends on the player to bring the most out of the game. Or another way I can say this... In order to find out how much thought a game can require/use (?) relies on the player that plays the game.

Well here ends my rant..


stop da lies
By poohbear on 3/15/2007 9:10:33 PM , Rating: 2
why do journalists pander to a company's marketing lies? the measures and standards that blizzard uses to say it has 8 million subscribers is completley invalid. U can't count an expired gamecard as a "subscriber", u're just fueling their marketing BS. at most, they have 1.5million-2 million active subscribers, which is still a shitload, but a farcry from 8million.




RE: stop da lies
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 3/15/2007 9:22:48 PM , Rating: 1
They sold 3.5 million copies of the expansion pack over the couse of 1 month, and that didn't include the bulk of Asian sales yet. How certain are you of that 2 million number?


RE: stop da lies
By mucke on 3/27/2007 8:29:42 PM , Rating: 2
Blizzard counts active accounts when they list how many players there are. not games bought and not expired accounts...8.5million active accounts


Habits
By kleinwl on 3/15/07, Rating: 0
RE: Habits
By spartan014 on 3/15/2007 11:16:44 PM , Rating: 2
:)

Would someone please tell me what is that huge wicked thing carried by the Tauren in the picture?


RE: Habits
By Ecmaster76 on 3/16/2007 12:06:23 AM , Rating: 2
He isn't carrying anything. Thats just armor you see sticking up from his back.


What about the others?
By Etern205 on 3/15/2007 9:36:57 PM , Rating: 2
His article is mostly focus on MMORPG gamers.
How about others who does not play MMORPG?
Will they have the same attitude as a MMORPG gamer?
Let's say the habit of a player who plays FPS, RTS, or other generes to a person who plays MMORPG.




RE: What about the others?
By nekobawt on 3/16/2007 12:22:52 PM , Rating: 2
Well, the article is mainly about Nick Yee's research, which is strictly about MMORPGs. That might have something to do with the focus on people who play MMOs.

Just a thought.


Waste of Time
By PWNettle on 3/16/2007 6:02:54 PM , Rating: 2
Some may say that playing video games is a waste of time, but I think we're all entitled to spend our time as we want to, and ultimately you could consider anything and everything a waste of time. There are definitely many things one could be doing that are worse than sitting in one's home having fun in a virtual world.

For example, I think this article about this Yee dude is a waste of time, and some person studying MMORPGs and expecting to be taken seriously is beyond a waste of time.

Having played most of the good MMORPGs, and having been a MMORPG addict up until stopping playing them entirely (including playing WoW from release onward), I've experienced people like Yee many times - they go to the forums for the game and ask people to fill out the most idiotic surveys with leading questions, limited questions, and the typical survey BS to get answers that support whatever idiocy they're spewing for their thesis.

I would also argue that interviewing 40k people out of 8.5 million subscribers, or even out of the 3m or so North American subscribers, isn't necessarily going to provide any type of accurate data. Yup yup, we've sampled data from 1.3% of users and can say without a doubt, that we have no idea what we're talking about.

The only thing I can imagine that could be a bigger waste of time and bigger crock than someone getting college credit for BS like studying a MMORPG would be someone getting a job and getting paid to do it.




RE: Waste of Time
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 3/17/2007 9:43:37 AM , Rating: 2
While you may think his research has no merit, I think it's important to note that the line between virtual reality and reality will continue to blur over the next few decades. WOW is an RPG, but it's also a prelimary exercise in a virtual environment that people spend copious amounts of time in.

I would personally be shocked if the day to day computing/entertainment/media experience in 2017 isn't more MMORPG than anything else we can relate to today.


A wow player
By cconley530171 on 3/16/2007 10:04:24 AM , Rating: 2
Well, I would like to add my say in all this crazy opinionated world of gaming. First I am a former naval person and I have a daughter. I play WOW a few hours a night after work about 3 times a week on good weeks. On the weekends if I have nothing to do I play WOW for several hours if I have friends online. WOW is a good game that teaches people how to interact among others in a certain way. The leadership that is used in WOW is very significant to the players in a group trying to complete a quest or run an instance. You have a specific job depending on the character you have a tank, healer, or providing crowd control. People that play theses games know what I mean. There are a lot of kids that have no care in the world about others in the game and they do as they want and really don’t care about anything else. I use a lot of my leadership skills in teaching new players how to accomplish the tasks they need to complete quests and level their character. I command a lot of groups I am in and teach others how to play their characters. I think this is a good thing for a lot of people. Ataraxia you seem to be a moron. No one has the right to say nothing is of any value. There is always something of good that comes from everything including the bad. So, as a Player of a lot of different (MMORPG’s) I believe they have a place in society just like anything else.




EVE Online
By KristopherKubicki (blog) on 3/16/2007 10:35:15 AM , Rating: 2
I that EVE isn't as present in Nick' studies. I'd like to see this pursued more.

My entire EVE experience has been skilling up my battleship and pirating at 100 km -- I wonder what kind of positive qualities that brings!

Yarrr!!




Women in WoW
By DirthNader on 3/19/2007 8:37:00 AM , Rating: 2
The comment about women in MMORPG's was interesting to me based on my experience. I played three different MMORPG's over four years, and it seemed that among the small-to-medium size guilds the women were the core.

It wasn't teenage boys fawning over online girls - we were all adults, most of us happily married. The women seemed much more adept (or at least more willing) at smoothing over the minor drama that occured from time to time, and to work at keeping the guild operating as a cohesive unit.

I thought there was some interesting social interactions going on in those games. You can really get a peek into someone's personality when they think they're anonymous - I've played with coworkers who didn't realize it was me (using a lower level alternate character), and some of the nastiness they mask in "real life" came to the forefront.

As far as WoW as a recreational activity goes, I'd still play but the wife and family simply don't understand gaming. I've got 8+ hours of tennis scheduled this week alone, plus another 2 hours of softball - no one says a word. If I spent 10 hours a week on WoW I think they'd call an intervention. It's just easier not to fight that battle - did it for four years and finally gave up.




I love the irony
By senbassador on 3/19/2007 6:43:19 PM , Rating: 2
Here we are bickering over whether or not playing video games is wasting one's time. Couldn't you also argue that if you spend more than one hour in dailytech, or an online forum in general, that you are wasting your valuable time. I've "wasted" a good amount of time arguing with people about politics in online forums, and aside from the occasional flame war or pointless name calling I've practiced my argumentational skills and debating skills. Yes, I could have learned them in the real world by joining a debate team. If you learn to do it in moderation and don't let it be the one thing that consumes your life then its no big deal.

Otherwise you are wasting your time arguing with people on how video gamers are wasting their time. Ironic, no? Yes, maybe?

I guess you could learn useful skills playing online games. Or you could go out in the "real world" to bars and clubs and interact with real people, hopefully getting yourself a date while other hard-core gamers spend their entire time playing games and you can laugh at them. But if you take that too far, you will eventually just keep on reusing the same cheesy pick-up lines getting on occasional one night stand, but how long before the bar scene gets old. Or you could go the route of going steady, but if you take that too far you could become overly clingy and a potential stalker in case of breakup. Or you could take the Christian route and abstain from girlfriends/boyfriends, clubs/bars and meet some real nice people in your church, but we all know what happens when you take that too far too, don't we?

Take anything too far and its probably a bad idea, EVEN if its studying and EVEN earning a lot of money in the real world, if you wind up working 12-hours-a-day.

A wise man once said, everything in moderation, including moderation.




If you take a look at:
By GhandiInstinct on 3/15/07, Rating: -1
RE: If you take a look at:
By Sh0ckwave on 3/15/2007 7:37:16 PM , Rating: 2
Are you a gamer by any chance? Is that a description of yourself or did you just make it all up?

Because in my experience you couldn't be more wrong. I know dozens of gamers and none of them fit into your "major demographic."


RE: If you take a look at:
By derwin on 3/15/2007 9:46:50 PM , Rating: 2
or perhaps you are remembering a sterotype from about ten years ago...


RE: If you take a look at:
By GhandiInstinct on 3/15/07, Rating: -1
RE: If you take a look at:
By chsh1ca on 3/16/2007 7:24:43 AM , Rating: 2
Physical isolation, yes. Asocial? Maybe that's how you interacted at the "elite" level but it was far from my experience. Unmotivated, uninspired, and depressed? Perhaps from the standpoint of someone who is seeing someone sitting at a computer for long hours for entertainment. Many MMOs and the way people play them are very similar to playing recreational sports in competitive leagues.

Most points you make in your post seems derived from the assumption that anyone sitting on a computer is disconnected from those they play with, which is mostly incorrect, and becoming more incorrect as new games improve on player to player communication.

The dying early might be true given the health issues of not doing anything but sitting in front of a computer, however that'd be a whole different study, and outside the scope of this article certainly.


RE: If you take a look at:
By GhandiInstinct on 3/16/2007 7:06:26 PM , Rating: 1
cshcsh,

Your generilizations, assumptions, do not get you anywhere, nor do they disprove the facts that a veteran MMO player provides. I have seen it all.

The end.

P.S. the moderators are hillarious adding those extra negatives to posts.


RE: If you take a look at:
By sviola on 3/16/2007 8:34:20 AM , Rating: 2
You couldn't be more wrong...I play about 1 - 2 hours a day, and I'm for sure not depressed nor living in isolation as an "asocial" person.

Just to illustrate my point, I play mostly FPS games online and only after I have returned from my job, my 2 hours of work out and meeting my girlfriend. Also, I play 2 hours weekly of football (soccer in America), and on the weekend I'm on the best restaurants, night clubs or parties in the city I live (btw, it's a 9 million citizen city). So, before throwing garbage out of your mouth, you better have proofs to back it up.


RE: If you take a look at:
By GhandiInstinct on 3/16/2007 11:08:57 PM , Rating: 1
Sviola,

You are the exception to the rule.

Most peole are and do....

I was there when it happened...


WoW is worthless
By Ataraxia on 3/15/07, Rating: -1
RE: WoW is worthless
By Lakku on 3/16/2007 2:32:50 AM , Rating: 4
Passing your classes has little outcome on how much you may or may not succeed in life. Many people have failed or did poorly in school, to go on to be quite successful. The opposite is also true, as many who study a lot don't do well in their jobs. Grades and your schooling have little effect on your success in life, unless you go to a very prestigious school. Even then, it doesn't always cut it. Today's world is all about getting the right education for a specific job, getting networked/getting contacts, and making yourself stand apart from the rest of the crowd. Everyone these days is getting a degree, it's the rest of what you have that matters. I suggest you get off your high horse and go get an internship or other real world experience, because passing your classes will do little for you with no relevant work experience.


RE: WoW is worthless
By killmax on 3/16/2007 1:06:28 PM , Rating: 3
I agree with you getting good grades does nothing for your success in the real world except show you study and test well. Taking the info you gain and applying it to your job is where most people have an issue. I have been an IT Professional for almost 10 years. I don't have a degree but I do far better at my job than alot of people with degrees because they don't have any real experience. All my experience has been practical application. When it comes down to getting a job, companies will and do higher the person with experience and good references over someone just fresh out of school and no experience. I'm not saying throw school out the window. In fact I am going to school to get my degree because some people do want to see a little piece of paper. Experience + piece of paer = All Doors open to you. Don't assume that just because your getting good grades in school that you will automatically do great things in the real world. You still have a long way to go before you have proven yourself to be an asset to your field.


RE: WoW is worthless
By Funksultan on 3/19/2007 7:36:27 AM , Rating: 1
That's a common misconception Lakku...

The truth of the matter is, students that work hard and get good grades (make the Dean's list, graduate with honors, cum laude, etc) succeed much more often than those who get poor grades and barely manage to graduate.

Is it a requirement? Not at all. Sure, there are exceptions to every rule. Hell, the richest, most successful person on the planet is a college dropout. However, if we eliminate the odd exceptions, statisticly, your comment is as flawed as flawed can be.

National average income for high school graduates: $28,645
College Degree: $51,554
Advanced College Degree: $78,093

Sorry. I know a lot of people would love to believe that all it takes is knowing people and talent, and yes, those things CAN get you very far, but the truth is, college degrees are a big part of your future income. That's much less of a gamble than dropping out to be an awesome web page designer. ;)

Of course, there are plenty of studies linking good college performance to good professional performance, but that's more of a case about the character of the individual. The case studies usually fall back to the "Winners win, losers lose" viewpoint. Yeah, it's a harsh way to look at things, but honestly, it's usually true.

D


RE: WoW is worthless
By TheBaker on 3/19/2007 5:05:42 PM , Rating: 2
i think the big flaw in your reasoning is equating success with income. Don't get me wrong, money is important, but I dropped out of college to open my own business. It is hugely successful for its kind, and I make about $60K a year for myself. That is more than enough to raise my family, especially considering that I don't have $30K+ of student loans to pay off.

I make less than most people in my age bracket, but I now work 4 days a week, about 6 hours each day. I play golf on the weekends and have plenty of family time. My kids go to a private school, and my wife works as much as she wants to, in whatever job she feels like at the time. Is that success? You tell me. In my world, that is the pinnacle of success.

And yes, I play WoW almost every night.

Taba, 69 troll hunter on Anvilmar


RE: WoW is worthless
By Lakku on 3/27/2007 11:22:26 AM , Rating: 2
My statement isn't flawed and I have no misconceptions.

Your statistics take into account engineers, doctors, and lawyers, 3 professions who will usually have a job and make good money (though now a days, the engineer is making less and getting harder to find jobs for that aren't outsourced), and MBAs, the most assenine degree on the planet, yet they make a lot of money.

With that said, I never said college ISN'T important. But guess what? Everyone and their mom is getting a college degree, so know what that means? You need more then a degree, advanced or not. I have been to near a dozen career fairs, applied to 87 jobs in my state that only wanted a college degree, and what did near every single one say? You don't have enough experience, sorry. I have a 3.3 GPA, a BA in History from UT Austin, and a couple honors etc. I have applied to jobs wanting just a degree, or applied to things like technical writing entry level jobs, ENTRY LEVEL, that wanted things like a history degree. All of them said I had good qualifications and a good transcript, but I needed experience.

My point is this, college doesn't mean nearly as much today as it once did. A degree, even advanced degrees or engineering, don't mean as much. You need to seperate yourself, and you do so by getting internships and experience, because the person who has a 2.5 gpa, a degree, and a internship or relevant experience, is more likely to get the job then the person with the same degree and a 3.0+ gpa etc. with NO experience at all.


RE: WoW is worthless
By greenmrt on 3/16/2007 7:57:29 AM , Rating: 4
I personally find WoW to be an interesting intellectual challenge. WoW is a world of chance, probability, and statistics. For anyone who understands the mechanics of the game (some Algebra required), the game takes on another dimension of interest.

I like to build efficiency in my character and seek ways to improve him - smart ways. I've played two to four hours a week for a little over two years and still find the challenges of the game entertaining and intellectually stimulating.

I have no trouble keeping up with the mobs of people who play 10 times as much I do, yet wonder around aimlessly "farming". With a little understanding of market economics and a little bit of coin, I have no trouble making 100g per day on the in-game AH.

I think, all-in-all, these MMORPG are a blessing. There is very little television that I find intellectually stimulating. Why do so many of the people who bash gaming happily blow 20+ hours a week vegetating in front of the television?

Thanks for fun read this morning, fellas,

Matt


RE: WoW is worthless
By senbassador on 3/19/2007 6:20:21 PM , Rating: 2
A wise man once said everything in moderation, including moderation. I think if you play internet games in moderation, that can be a good thing, if you wind up learning the basic principles of supply and demand when trading items and what not, and you also learn how to balance resources and how much to put into each stat. Perhaps maybe some leadership and teamwork while you are at it.

However, I hope no one is naive enough to think that a silly little game is a substitute for the real thing. The REAL victors are the people who buy and sell online accounts and make a profit in the REAL WORLD (the fact that its against game policy, marginally morally wrong, and possibly even illegal notwithstanding) as well as people who play the game enough to learn its mechanics, copy them, and start their own online game. Being a CEO of a game company would look good on your resume, much moreso than being the leader of your clan.

Video games are supposed to be a complement to real life, a mini-training ground at best, not a substitute. Its the people who play them IN MODERATION that do well in life. For people who don't play them, theres joining the football or chess team or earning fake coins at casino night.


RE: WoW is worthless
By Darkskypoet on 3/16/2007 8:09:26 AM , Rating: 2
"WOW"... Guess you never got to lead a 40 person Raid group into a really difficult instance have you? Ever try to command / coordinate 39 others via voice and text to achieve a common, and sometimes Damn difficult goal? Ever?

Never mind online, how bout in person? Ever? I thought not. Some of the mad skillz these games bring about are listed off in posts below. However, effectively leading a team of even 20 members is a wicked set of skillz to behold.

Not many do it well!

Just as important, in many cases, is to be a good sub leader, 2IC, or heck even a good follower. If you've not done much in WOW, or other games, where large groups 20+ players are required to do something very difficult, you should really close your mouth until you've seen just how much skill these group taskings require.

Further, again as Raid leader, or sub leader, you have to bea ble to handle a vicious amount of incoming information and react accordingly. You get to build a system of your own device to handle said information and cut reaction times with various scripts, UI packages, etc. Also, bringing with it a lot of experience, and unique skills.

I would suppose that you watched some people do the individual farming, or hacking at mobs till they die, rinse and repeat. Yes this is tedious, and hell, i will agree that aspect of the game brings with it almost no gains, except in many cases perseverance for a crappy mundane job. However, no one actually watching a raid leader, etc. work, or who has ever been one, could question the skills, info processing abilities, and strategic "now" thinking required to successfully pull off a large Raid.


RE: WoW is worthless
By umerok on 3/16/2007 1:30:04 PM , Rating: 2
Or the organiztion and management required while you aren't raiding...

Composing and scheduling raids, calculating "fair" DKP values, assigning DKP to members, researching new encounters and progression opportunities, processing applications and interviewing guild applicants, managing the guild bank (making sure you have enough of the right type of consumables for the entire raid), keeping the guild website updated, organizing "special events" (level 1 gnome race to Thunder Bluff FTW) to boast guild morale and encourage participation, and meeting with your guild officers to discuss issues of relevance.

Oh, and you have our own character to maintain and advance.


RE: WoW is worthless
By UsernameX on 3/16/2007 9:57:08 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Some games are worthless. For instance: WoW. There is nothing redeeming about this game. It is a mindless RPG. And in fact, almost all RPGs are mindless. Spewing garbage about "Leadership" is just bullshit. Leadership has so many more aspects in the REAL WORLD than what is encompassed in a virtual world like WoW. I'm convinced that 90% of these people in WoW who are professed to have leadership qualities wouldn't cut it for a day.


Well apparently you didn't hear about the gentlemen scoring a high level position over at Yahoo did you? It was down to two guys. Both had almost identical skills and abilities, however one of the guys had WOW on his resume. He pointed out that he controlled one of the largest guilds in WOW.

Now tell me playing games like WOW won't get you anywhere.


RE: WoW is worthless
By feelingshorter on 3/16/07, Rating: 0
RE: WoW is worthless
By slacker57 on 3/16/2007 11:45:46 AM , Rating: 4
Lol, these discussions are hilarious.

I shouldn't defend WoW because I'm a CoH player, and thus, by law, I must hate Wow, but since we're really "supposed" talking about games/MMOs in general, I'll toss in a few cents, maybe a nickle.

My grudge with these WoW haters is this, and specifically with thoughts like this:

quote:
Imagine high school kids playing that crap all day and not passing their classes. There are plenty of dumb nerds out there. All the smart nerds I know don't play any games.


I have to ask, are you really "in school putting 1000 hours into college"? Because I'm pretty sure by middle school you would have learned about a term called "mutually exclusive." I'll have you look that one up for your homework tonight so I don't have to explain it. But, basically, playing games and getting an education are not mutually exclusive. I mean, if you're one of those people who takes 30 credit hours a semester and spends every other waking hour in the library studying after that, then maybe they are mutually exclusive. But most people aren't like that, and that's another problem altogether. That's a problem of no life. And you can call yourself "successful" all you want at your job, but part of being successful in life is actually living it. And you can call gaming a waste of time/antisocial if you want to, but the truth is that many people find that online social interactivity is a valuable part of their life. Your measure of "success" is almost certainly different than everyone else's measure. So if they can hold down a job, raise a family, AND enjoy some gaming, too, I'll call them a success. What's the difference between spending a night with online friends killing some zombies and spending a night at a bar killing brain cells? They're both fun to different people. And yet it's completely acceptable to go out and get blasted after a big test or a long study session. Go ask some lawyers what they did right after taking the BAR or some doctors what they did after taking the MCATs. They probably would have felt better in the morning if they had simply stayed home and played video games.

If "winning the game of life" means spending 14 hours a day in an office working, then congrats when your "1000 hours of college" pays off, but I'll take a more satisfying overall life experience by mixing some gaming, watching some NCAA tournament, taking a jog, spending time with my GF (which, by the way, means getting on CoH with out SG and doing a taskforce once in a while) and call that a relative amount of success. And I'll talk to her across the room so I get that valuable "face-to-face" interaction so you can't call me antisocial.

Well, that was quite rambly. Almost makes it look like I didn't get enough education. Being a little self-depricating there. Hey, there's another term for you to look up. You'll need that quality to succeed in "the game of life" because most people don't give a shit when you brag about how educated you are. It's actually kind of a turn-off.

Oh, and just a pedantic little sidenote -- "your an idiot by leaps and bounds." I hate being "that grammar guy" but that one ALWAYS jumps out at me.


RE: WoW is worthless
By feelingshorter on 3/16/2007 12:13:26 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
You'll need that quality to succeed in "the game of life" because most people don't give a shit when you brag about how educated you are. It's actually kind of a turn-off.


Most people don't give a sh!t what level you are in any RPG. It's actually kind of a turn off. I know plenty of people who played WOW, and speaking to them now that they quit, they all laugh. They, much older now, all wish they hadn't wasted their time on it.

Educated people can work less and make more. Its people who wasted their time in their younger years that have to work long hours in the office like you said.


RE: WoW is worthless
By killmax on 3/16/2007 1:53:23 PM , Rating: 2
This debate about video games is ridiculous. It is as simple as this. Obsession is Obession whether your playing video games, sports, studying etc... I work around some of the most brilliant people in thier fields and they are darn good at what they do, but when it comes to social skills and COMMON SENSE, changing a tire or oil, ordering food, using a computer; they lack in all but their specific fields. Why? Because they spent too much time developing one skill or skill set. Put a computer in front of them and their freak out. Even though they have gone to school and learned critical thinking skills, they can't pull up a web browser and find the information they need. This is the same for anyone who has a one track mind. If you only develop one thing then of course everything else will be lacking. For some reason people want to look at video games and point the finger. Just because you play video games doesn't make you're a loser and are going to fail in life, like anything else it should be done with moderation.

If you think playing a video game that requires social interaction with everyone else's who is playing does nothing to build social or leadership skills then you are a blind fool. In WOW and most other MMO games there are specific task/areas that require you to work well with others.

Stay in school get a degree but don't assume that just because you are working hard to get that piece of paper that your are given the golden key. I find it funny how many people there are who have a degree but they are working in some entirely unrelated field. Either because they couldn't get a job in their field or they later decided it wasn't what they want to do. I am currently finishing my degree, but I have been working in my field for almost 10 years. I love it, I know it's what I want to do, and I'm good at it.


RE: WoW is worthless
By Penth on 3/18/2007 4:05:38 AM , Rating: 2
It's not worthless to Blizzard or it's parent company (Viacom I think). Seriously, it's a $1.5B/year game. But to these people who are talking about the mad skills necessary to coordinate a massive raid with 20 other people is just rediculous. My cousin got his character up to level 60 and sold it for $100 after I'm sure hundreds of hours. That's very productive.

I don't game much, though I have played Warcraft 3 lately. <sarcasm>And let me tell you, coordinating 11 players in a Tower D to make sure they all put up their arrow towers and ice towers on time to prevent leaks takes mad skills. I've learned leadership and other important skills from hosting these games. I decide who gets which spots, and who can play in my game.</sarcasm>

Video games provide entertainment, and little more.


"If they're going to pirate somebody, we want it to be us rather than somebody else." -- Microsoft Business Group President Jeff Raikes











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