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Big brother coming one step closer, or viable license that citizens want?

Residents in New York now have the chance to carry a new type of drivers license that is embedded with a radio frequency identification (RFID) chip.  

People wanting the new license will need to pay an additional $30 processing fee -- raising the price for a new license to $80 -- and bring a pile of government-issued documents with them to the DMV.  An old license, Social Security card, birth certificate or other proof of U.S. citizenship and two documents to prove residency in New York are required.

Even though it will add another 10 to 20 minutes at the local DMV, the license can be used for border crossings between the United States, Mexico, Canada, Bermuda and the Carribean.  The new land and sea requirements will go into effect on June 1, 2009, but is not eligible for international air travel, which will still require a valid passport.  

No personal information is stored on the RFID tag and the identifying information can only be used to verify that it has been issued to a person, the state of New York said.  New York residents worried about privacy concerns will not be required to get a new drivers license.  

Each license will be shipped with a protective storage sleeve designed to help stop anyone who is trying to use an RFID reader to pull a person's name off the ID.

RFID chips have already been implemented into passports and credit cards, but New York is the first state to put them into drivers licenses.  Depending on how effective the licenses are in New York, other states have shown interest in launching RFID-enabled licenses.

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Mmm.. what's the point?
By Don Tonino on 9/18/2008 8:01:35 AM , Rating: 2
So, if I get it right, anyone owning this driving licence will still have to stop and show it at the border - what do I get then for 30 dollars more, not counting in the time and the documents I have to produce expecially to get it? what am I missing out?




RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By FITCamaro on 9/18/2008 8:11:14 AM , Rating: 3
Read the article. It will count as a valid passport for travel to and from Mexico, Canada, Bermuda and the Carribean.

Of course then they'll also start issuing these to illegal aliens since NY is second only to California in its love for people here in this country illegally (also known as criminals).


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By Don Tonino on 9/18/2008 8:22:24 AM , Rating: 2
And why does it have to have an RFID to count as a valid passport? is that because passports already have it inside, so that the driving licence had to be 'boosted up' with the chip? Or is it meant as another security layer on top of the one (admittedly not very strong, as your last sentence does imply) afforded by the common driving licence?


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By FITCamaro on 9/18/2008 8:48:47 AM , Rating: 2
I think its meant as an extra security layer, but it doubles as a passport because yes, all new passports have RFID chips now.

How exactly it works as a passport though I don't know since the article says it doesn't keep any personal info.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By omnicronx on 9/18/2008 12:53:30 PM , Rating: 2
It doesnt work as a passport, it is probably just as you said, an extra form of security. Ontario wants to do the same thing because the U.S is no longer going to allow us to cross the boarder without a passport and it is not like the US is going to keep canadian drivers license information on file (and vice versa for that matter). It is going to be nearly impossible for the average person to make a fake drivers license with a working rfid chip.

Passports can cost a lot of money, and there is usually a waiting period unless you want to pay more, not to mention a large percentage of people don't have one. On the otherhand, most people do have a drivers license, and if you only plan to cross the boarder once in 5 years, then 30 dollars is a pretty good investment.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By foolsgambit11 on 9/18/2008 2:01:55 PM , Rating: 2
It works instead of a passport. It doesn't double as a passport. In other words, travel to Canada, Mexico, and the Caribbean by land or sea will require either a valid passport or a state-issued ID that meets certain requirements, like the new New York ID. Travel by plane will still require a passport.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By FITCamaro on 9/18/2008 3:44:44 PM , Rating: 2
Semantics. Yes I know it does not double as a passport because otherwise it would be good for overseas travel as well.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By strikeback03 on 9/18/2008 8:50:03 AM , Rating: 2
My passport (issued December 2006) does not have the RFID chip.

I'd imagine the "security" isn't so much the chip as the documentation you have to bring the DMV to get one legally. Or that is the idea at least.

This also means that in the almost 7 years since I was last issued a license NY has redesigned them twice.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By RamarC on 9/18/2008 10:57:06 AM , Rating: 2
the RFID is not required but it makes it easy to read the license in close proximity.

the NY license documentation requirement makes it an "enhanced drivers license" which in turn allows it be used for travel between member nations in the western hemisphere. it is also compliant with the Real ID act guidelines.

WHTI: http://travel.state.gov/travel/cbpmc/cbpmc_2223.ht...
REAL ID Q&A: http://www.dhs.gov/xprevprot/laws/gc_1172767635686...


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By EntreHoras on 9/18/2008 11:33:59 AM , Rating: 1
Come on! Even if I'm not always agree with you in your postings I have you as a thinking person.

quote:
...people here in this country illegally (also known as criminals)

This is just a mindless repeat of a mindless thought.

As a person who has lived in 5 countries (legally in all), including the U.S., I can tell you that the Immigration issue is just an excuse and a way to deflect the responsibility of the politicians when the thins aren't going the way it should. If you want an example, just remember who the German government blamed in the late 1930's

I'm following the situation in the U.S. and I'm very worried that currently there is no leadership and after the elections, whoever wins will have not the strength and courage to fix the situation.

If this situation continues, the U.S. will implode; and that is something that the politicians will have no one else to blame.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By Cobra Commander on 9/18/2008 12:09:11 PM , Rating: 2
If there are legalities (as there are in every developed nation AFAIK) regarding immigration then there are two types of immigrants, regardless of which developed country we choose to exemplify:

Legalized Immigrants
Illegal Immigrants

There is nothing mindless about that statement. It's simple fact. If you cannot accept that many Americans hold this against illegal immigrants then that is your decision but you cannot dismiss such opinions as a justification of your own. I wouldn't call that mindless but that certainly is borderline narrow-minded.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By FITCamaro on 9/18/2008 1:36:00 PM , Rating: 2
How is that statement mindless. If someone is in this country illegally, they are committing a federal crime. What does that then make them? A federally wanted criminal.

As far as the reference to 1930s Germany where the government blamed all the countries problems on Jews, where am I blaming anything on anyone in my statement? I was merely stated that with New York's current leadership, it will only be a matter of time before illegal immigrants start also getting issued these IDs.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By EntreHoras on 9/18/2008 2:51:18 PM , Rating: 2
I apologize if I was too harsh using the term "mindless".

You know, there are crimes and there are Crimes. When you say that all illegal immigrants are criminals you are implying that all are active in the prosecution of criminal acts like burglary, assaults or murder.

I'm not defending the free crossing of borders. In fact, I'm against all illegal immigration. I'm salute the initiative to strength border patrols and the wall with Mexico. Also I'm against the right of instant citizenship that all Cubans have when they arrive to Miami.

But as a legal immigrant who knows several illegal immigrants, I feel that is very wrong the use of the term criminal on them.

As for the ID's:

quote:
An old license, Social Security card, birth certificate or other proof of U.S. citizenship... ...are required.

Whoever has any of those documents, is not an illegal.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By FITCamaro on 9/18/2008 3:55:48 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
quote: An old license, Social Security card, birth certificate or other proof of U.S. citizenship... ...are required. Whoever has any of those documents, is not an illegal.


So if someone illegally comes into this country, and obtained a license in New York because they pander to illegals, you don't view that person as an illegal? So illegals who have fake Social Security cards or Birth Certificates are not illegals? A license is not proof of citizenship either. It is proof that you are licensed to drive.

quote:
But as a legal immigrant who knows several illegal immigrants


You're not very against illegal immigrations then. Me personally, if I knew an illegal immigrant, I would call immigration so they would get deported. By knowing one and not turning them in, you are supporting them being in this country. And my best friend's mom (he never knew his dad) and her family immigrated from Puerto Rico. So don't act like I hate all immigration.

And yes, all illegal immigrants are in the active COMMISSION of a criminal act every second of every day they are in this country. Criminal acts include more than just burglary, assault, or murder.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By EntreHoras on 9/18/2008 6:14:21 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
So illegals who have fake Social Security cards or Birth Certificates are not illegals?

If you're able to fake any of those documents, you're able to fake a driver's license.

quote:
And my best friend's mom (he never knew his dad) and her family immigrated from Puerto Rico. So don't act like I hate all immigration.

Sorry, but Puertoricans have U.S. citizenship, so technically is not immigration.

To be angry at illegal immigration is your right; also to be angry at pandering politicians is your right. You have the right to vote; please use it to elect a congressman, a senator and a president who you really believe will fix this, not just for the one who has the charisma, the looks or happens to be in the party you like.

And if you're so eager to punish criminals, you can start with the couple who push the nation into a illegal war in Iraq.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By FITCamaro on 9/18/2008 9:55:35 PM , Rating: 2
How is it illegal? Congress voted for it. Please explain to me how the war in Iraq is illegal.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By EntreHoras on 9/19/2008 12:45:54 AM , Rating: 1
If GM announce that the 2009 Camaro has an economy of 65 MPG and makes 0 to 60 MPH in 1.1 sec and have a top speed of 350 MPH, and the consumers find that any of those numbers are true; what do you thing will happen? Most probably GM should be fined for illegal advertising.

The same happened here. The congress voted for a war against a WMD-Al-Qaeda-Iraq. The executive shamelessly fooled the congress.

Doesn't hurt you all the American lives lost in a fabricated war?
Doesn't hurt you that the Taliban and Al Qaeda are getting stronger in Afghanistan as the result of distraction of resources in Iraq?

Again, please vote in November for a congressman and a senator who have the commitment to fix this; and vote for a president whose priority is to improve the lives of the Americans instead of the Saudis who sell oil to the U.S.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By Cobra Commander on 9/18/2008 12:03:52 PM , Rating: 2
What's the basis for claiming NY harbors the 2nd-most illegal aliens???


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By omnicronx on 9/18/2008 1:08:27 PM , Rating: 2
Estimates show that NY is home to 3 million immigrants 500 thousand of them being illegal. This is pretty common knowledge.

what I find funny is this new card will be available to anyone regardless of immigration status.
quote:
New York State, home to more than 500,000 illegal immigrants, will issue driver’s licenses without regard to immigration status under a policy change announced yesterday by Gov. Eliot Spitzer.
-NY Times

Looks like FT was correct, whether he was joking or not ;)


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By FITCamaro on 9/18/2008 1:39:42 PM , Rating: 2
I think that 500,000 number is a very modest number. According to the media, there's been only 12 million illegal aliens in the US since 2000.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By FITCamaro on 9/18/2008 1:38:44 PM , Rating: 1
I didn't say they harbor the 2nd most illegal aliens. I said they're only behind Commifornia in their lack of enforcement of illegal immigration.

Florida, South Carolina, and Texas all have large illegal immigrant problems as well but they don't think about giving them licenses.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By foolsgambit11 on 9/18/2008 1:58:45 PM , Rating: 3
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_t...

Oh. They're not called criminals because it's not a criminal violation, it's a civil violation. Doesn't mean it's not wrong, just that it's not criminal. Just thought I'd throw that out there.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By FITCamaro on 9/18/2008 3:58:10 PM , Rating: 1
Illegally entering this country is a federal CRIME. What is someone who commits a crime? A criminal.

As much as I read it for technology based things, wikipedia is run by a bunch of liberals. So I don't doubt that they'd downplay illegal immigration.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By theapparition on 9/18/2008 10:33:53 AM , Rating: 2
What are you missing out on?

How about the $150+ dollars for a passport. If you don't plan to travel to anywhere outside of NA, it's a good deal. Plus it will be more convient than a standard passport.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By christojojo on 9/18/2008 1:39:28 PM , Rating: 2
LOL funny thing is that the DMV clerks In Buffalo,NY told me that they would still bring there Passports.

When I asked them (three) if they had a choice between the new license and a passport, they chose the passport.

When I asked them what the new license was for? They said so you don't need a passport and all three laughed. Then a guy passed behind me and said, "fund raiser". The laughed and shook their heads affirmative.

I'm not saying their view is correct, but when your own employees don't believe in it why should I?


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By archermoo on 9/18/2008 4:04:36 PM , Rating: 2
Current cost for a passport in the US is $100 for a new passport. $75 for a renewal.


RE: Mmm.. what's the point?
By marvdmartian on 9/18/2008 10:41:31 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know which is worse.....the $30 extra you pay for a card that probably cost the state $3 more to purchase.....or the fact that a regular non-RFID license costs them $50!!

I dropped my NY state residency years ago, when I went active duty military, and I'm quite certain it was the best move I ever made!


I don't know about other states, but
By 325hhee on 9/18/2008 9:12:10 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
An old license, Social Security card, birth certificate or other proof of U.S. citizenship


In the State of NY a Social Security card is not a valid ID, so I have no idea why the reporter even posted that. I don't know how many fraudulent SS cards are in the city, but there's lots, most going back to welfare scams. Which is why NYS doesn't recognize SS cards.




RE: I don't know about other states, but
By middlehead on 9/18/2008 9:27:08 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
In the State of NY a Social Security card is not a valid ID, so I have no idea why the reporter even posted that.

It may not be a valid ID by itself, but they still need to see it. Most places ask for SS & birth certificate together if you don't have a higher form of ID that's already been verified by the two. What's weird to me is that they're asking for the SS/BC combo AND your old license.


By FITCamaro on 9/18/2008 9:55:49 AM , Rating: 2
Yes to prove you have a valid license. Everyone (legal) gets a social security card and birth certificate. Doesn't mean you have a valid drivers license.


By 325hhee on 9/18/2008 10:06:38 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
It may not be a valid ID by itself, but they still need to see it. Most places ask for SS & birth certificate together if you don't have a higher form of ID that's already been verified by the two. What's weird to me is that they're asking for the SS/BC combo AND your old license.


Good point, by itself it is worthless.


By Aikouka on 9/18/2008 9:28:39 AM , Rating: 2
If I remember correctly, NYS requires six points worth of valid ID to get a driver's license replaced (or issued). Although, I'm pretty sure a NYS driver's license that is either current or has been expired for less than a year gives you 6 points. They list all that junk on the NYS DMV if you're really curious.

Oh and I said that, because I believe a SS card counts as one point.


By Inkjammer on 9/18/2008 10:14:28 AM , Rating: 2
Pennsylvania DMVs require a Social Security Card to get a Driver's License as well. Why? I don't know. The SSN card is a flimsy, cheaply printed piece of paper that has no information other than a name and a number. The PA State DMV refused to issue me a license without my SSN card (despite having a valid US passport and US Military ID card, both of which have my SSN number on them).

How an SSN card trumps a passport as proof I'll never know.

That, and they wanted two bills with state-residence in there, so I had to fabricate mail just to get my license (as a legal resident!). I didn't have any legit bills at the time, so I was screwed.

The DMV is like DRM for adults. Can't think of a person who doesn't shudder at the idea of having to deal with it.


RE: I don't know about other states, but
By JustTom on 9/18/2008 11:20:56 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, the NY DMV website says you need a social security card without exception.

http://www.nydmv.state.ny.us/forms/id44edl.pdf


By Tengu13 on 9/18/2008 1:59:28 PM , Rating: 2
Actually, you don't. My sister recently had her wallet stolen and lost her social security card with it. With her luck, her passport was expired and was no longer a valid form of identification.

New York goes by some weird point system in which you have to bring in a bunch of paper work, each worth a certain amount of points, to get a license or ID card. I think you need like 11 or 13 points. Not sure on the exact points needed to pass, but my sister had to get her birth certificate mailed out, copies of her bills, school transcript, proof from her employers that she was on staff, and a bunch of other stuff. Even then, she was like a point short, but the guy at the DMV actually had a human soul and let her pass.


huh
By MamiyaOtaru on 9/18/2008 2:57:18 PM , Rating: 2
"No personal information is stored on the RFID tag"
...
"Each license will be shipped with a protective storage sleeve designed to help stop anyone who is trying to use an RFID reader to pull a person's name off the ID."

wat




RE: huh
By vhx on 9/18/2008 4:58:51 PM , Rating: 2
I saw this too and yet no one has posted on it. Someone slipped up. Kind of how they said RFID tags can't be used to track anything. Yeah, we've all seen how true that statement is.


Sample Document
By mezman on 9/18/2008 3:49:48 PM , Rating: 2
Woah, Miss Sample Document is kinda good looking.




FITCamaro
By MrSmurf on 9/18/2008 11:01:18 PM , Rating: 2
Is FITCamaro a staff member at Dailytech or is he just that bored?




hmmmm, minority report...
By download7 on 9/18/2008 11:02:20 PM , Rating: 2
Lets get multiply RFID tags on everyone then we can track them like stock at a warehouse. Then we can put scanners at every doorway or intersection and be tracked everywhere we go. Then lets make it mandatory to have your RFID scanned everywhere you go. This way we will know at all times where everyone is. After all I dont like the personal freedom of being somewhere unless big brother can keep an eye one me.




this was designed...
By GlassHouse69 on 9/19/2008 12:01:45 AM , Rating: 1
This was designed 2 years ago when passports became mandatory. Canada and the Carribean became really upset thinking that casual vacationers would have to get a stupid fucking passport to walk 50 feet from the US border. Now, this will increase tourism again. I myself was like , Fuck that, when people said i had to pay 100+ dollars just to go to Northern montana to see some titty bars and drink fancy beer. You need not only pay for the passport, but for photo's and for a brand new birth certificate from your state. easily 120 dollars when its done, and probably 150 if you dont want to wait super long for every step.




"There is a single light of science, and to brighten it anywhere is to brighten it everywhere." -- Isaac Asimov









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