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With the struggling economy, the U.S. finds itself returning to the same debates about whether foreigners should be allowed to work in the U.S. that have been ongoing for centuries, ever since the first waves of immigrants from Ireland, Poland, China, and elsewhere hit our shores. This time, the debate has serious ramifications for the IT sector.  (Source: magneticblue.com)
New package includes provisions that makes it more difficult for companies obtaining aid to hire workers on H1-B visas

The $787B USD economic stimulus package, which passed through Congress and was into law on Tuesday by President Obama, contains many provisions that affect the tech industry.  While much of the funding it provides and funding that was cut from the initial legislation has been extensively discussed, one overlooked section of the bill is its ramifications on the hiring of foreign workers.

In the United States, many companies hire a handful of workers on H-1B visas, which allow foreign workers to work legally and (relatively) free of hassle within the U.S.  While the number of H1-B workers at most companies is pretty low, in some departments, such as IT departments, the number can be substantial.  The few companies that do hire a large percentage of H1-B workers, such as Microsoft, are deemed "H1-B Dependent" and have special restrictions placed on them by the federal government.

Now these same restrictions are being placed on companies accepting funds from the stimulus or other bailout packages.  The companies receiving funds will be classed as
"H1-B Dependent" regardless of the number of foreign workers they employ.  Elizabeth Espin Stern, an attorney and leader of the global immigration practice of law firm Baker & McKenzie International, helped to elaborate on these new restrictions. She notes that companies will now have to show "in good faith" that they look for Americans for a position, before hiring an H1-B worker to it.

Additionally, employers must offer at least the minimum of
"prevailing wages" for the position and verify that they haven't displaced an American worker within 90 days of the hiring.  They also have to offer the job to at least one American candidate if they applied and are equally or better qualified to the H1-B job-seeker. 

The government conducts regular audits for compliance.  Those companies found in violation face stiff fines and loss of their H1-B workers.

According to Stern, the financial and banking sector has less than 1 percent of its employees working on H1-B visas.  Currently 85,000 applications for the visas are filed annually.  While these companies are only expected to be marginally effected, the new rules may have potentially serious effects on foreign jobseekers in the IT sector of the financial world.

Senators Chuck Grassley, R-Iowa, and Bernie Sanders, I-Vermont, first proposed the restriction.  Initially, they sought to have companies receiving the funding barred from hiring workers on H1-B visas.  That proposal was later scratched and replaced by the "H1-B Dependent" provisions.  Sen. Grassley's spokesperson still called the bill a victory, stating, "The goal is to make qualified American workers a top priority."

How
ever, some are critical of the new legislation, saying companies should be able to hire whoever they think will provide the best talent and not feel pressured to hire only Americans.  Ms. Stern states, "Many of these financial services, credit card companies use H-1B for specialized IT talent related to risk management, enterprise systems.  Why tie one hand behind their backs" in employing this talent?"

Immigration attorney Frida Glucoft of law firm Mitchell Silberberg & Knupp says that the new legislation may have dire impacts on foreign graduates of U.S. universities, seeking jobs in economics, technology, mathematics, and business.  She states, "There will be a brain drain of talent that will go elsewhere.  This is a slippery slope for the U.S."

Other
s cheer the move, stating that the law should put Americans first before foreigners.  Donna Conroy, executive director of Bright Future Jobs, an advocacy group pushing for H-1B visa reform, adds, "This is a political victory.  It's now an issue on the national radar screen."

Senators Grassley and Richard Durbin, D-Ill. plan to soon try to reintroduce sweeping H-1B and L-1 visa anti-fraud and anti-abuse legislation.  If passed, this legislation could have an even greater impact on foreign workers in the U.S., placing more restrictions on companies like Microsoft who rely on foreign workers.



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good
By tastyratz on 2/19/2009 11:41:55 AM , Rating: 1
We need to take care of our own in an economic struggle such as this. I think its a great idea. This is not regulation against all companies, just ones expecting American funded stimulus bills... damn right they better be trying to hire Americans.

Now if only we had stronger enforcement and not such a blind eye to illegal immigrant jobs... Those are jobs that would really benefit the unemployed legitimate citizens right now.




RE: good
By bissimo on 2/19/2009 11:54:48 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Now if only we had stronger enforcement and not such a blind eye to illegal immigrant jobs... Those are jobs that would really benefit the unemployed legitimate citizens right now.


Really? Picking tomatoes in the sun or laying carpet in an office building with no air circulation for $15 a day? Those are the kinds of jobs unemployed citizens need?
Wise up. Most illegal immigrants do the work that Americans aren't willing to. Do you really think some unemployed factory worker would be willing to do the work that an illegal immigrant would? Nope. Until you're ready to start paying double for food, construction and cleaning services, get off the illegals' backs.


RE: good
By roostitup on 2/19/2009 12:03:25 PM , Rating: 4
The worse things get the more willing Americans will be to do this type of work, you'll see. The foreign workers will get pushed out, especially if they are going to make it more difficult for them.


RE: good
By JasonMick (blog) on 2/19/2009 12:37:05 PM , Rating: 2
Its true that they may in the short term, but will they accept such terms in the long term?

This is really the heart of America's long term financial/economic problem. American workers demand the "American dream" -- better compensation (on a basis of the quality of living it provides irregardless to currency value), better benefits, and better working conditions than foreign workers.

However, ultimately foreign competitors who demand less (i.e. Japanese professionals who are willing to work for one company their whole lives and live in a shoebox sized apartment or Chinese/Indian skilled workers who work for a fraction of the cost of work here) will prevail unless we can provide a substantially higher quality of work than they can. Which is a big if.


RE: good
By Verran on 2/19/2009 1:05:17 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
irregardless

You should have your hand slapped for using this word. Bad!


RE: good
By pattycake0147 on 2/19/2009 1:44:50 PM , Rating: 5
I agree. Regardless is the preferred word.

From Merriam-Webster

quote:
Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead.


RE: good
By yacoub on 2/19/2009 4:42:22 PM , Rating: 3
correct. the issue isn't whether or not it's a word, it's that it's a redundant word, a useless word, a stupid word.


RE: good
By Slappi on 2/19/2009 9:23:15 PM , Rating: 3
Irregardless, it's still a word.


RE: good
By rburnham on 2/20/2009 10:35:45 AM , Rating: 3
"Whatnot" is also a word, but, like irregardless, it's a stupid word. Also called "the word of the idiot."


RE: good
By gcouriel on 2/20/2009 1:41:48 PM , Rating: 2
why not just use "whether" and not "whether or not". whether already implies the "or not". it isn't a definite term, in the sense that you would say "i will run across the street", it implies the possibility of "or not" by its very nature.

thus, to pick on people some more, don't use "irregardless" and "whether or not". just try sticking to "regardless" (or irrespective) and "whether".


RE: good
By Hiawa23 on 2/19/2009 1:59:49 PM , Rating: 3
One thing we all should be able to agree one which is our country(U S) will need to establish some sort of oversight on the illegal problem cause it's not just the jobs, but they also have access to healthcare & all of that, & with the country in the shape it's in, I am not sure we can continue going with vitually none to little immigration policy. I read that California which is going bankrupt spends on average 4-8 bill per year on the illegals, not to mention other problems like crime & such that some cause. I live in Florida & just a week or two ago an 11 year old girl was raped by two illegals. I agree that they do alot of work that Americans don't want to do but like someone said as things get worse Americans will want to do alot of things they may not have wanted to do in the past.


RE: good
By HumanRights on 2/19/2009 5:57:48 PM , Rating: 4
No human being is illegal, they are simply undocumented. And if this isn’t the case, then “illegal” immigration began in 1492.

quote:
“I read that California which is going bankrupt spends on average 4-8 bill per year on the illegals”


Hiawa23, please realize that undocumented workers are consumers as well. They are living, breathing human beings just like you and I. They live in houses and hence pay property taxes, sales taxes, and even income taxes (Not even some of our top bureaucrats seem to do this). Billions of dollars are reaped by the federal government from taxes paid by undocumented immigrants (Look at the link at the end of post if you want to corroborate that fact). It’s quite ironic and unfair that it is so easy to pay taxes (with an ITIN) but so difficult to be given some basic human rights in our country.

I’m glad you mentioned that only “some” cause crime, how much money does that cost the city in reality, though? We are spending more tax dollars in our bureaucracy deporting hard working families, and top tier students (see the links below) than actual “criminals.” I agree with you, we do not want criminals in our country, so get rid of the criminals and but stop the gestapo-style raids on our hard-working communities.

The immigration debate very is heated, but we need to come to a solution. Unfortunately, there is a lot of misinformation making it a black and white issue, and putting "us" against "them," but at the end of the day, we are all human beings. Please take some time to understand the issue and reanalyze your stance on it.

Billions fact:
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmod...

"California High School Valedictorian to Be Deported":
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,361861,00.html

You can read of the hundreds of heart-breaking and unfair stories of undocumented students trying to make the American Dream a reality, but being barred from it:
http://dreamactivist.org/our-stories/


RE: good
By Targon on 2/20/2009 8:29:09 AM , Rating: 3
Ok, they have entered the country without permission. There are laws that say that those entering the country get permission in some way, shape, or form. If someone is breaking the law by entering the country without permission, they have entered the country illegally.

So, how do you get around the fact that there are LAWS that govern entering this country? If someone breaks into your home, do you say they are undocumented people who are now living in your house, or have they done something illegal?


RE: good
By tastyratz on 2/20/2009 8:50:02 AM , Rating: 4
I'm touched.
I can source some heartbreaking examples of people losing their jobs to ILLEGAL aliens as well.

Don't expect a bleeding heart response like they are the "victims" here.

Not every ILLEGAL (not using "undocumented" here) alien in this country is a total leech on the system, just like not every American citizen in this country deserves to have their citizenship. The point being is that the averages are against you.
MOST illegals don't pay most taxes and try to stay out of the system. Sales tax is unavoidable in many areas, but income tax? How do you pay income tax when you don't have a social security number?

The system here is generated around being able to get a legal legitimate job. Being illegal means you have to resort to illegal jobs, which usually don't include standard pay and benefits. This makes the majority of illegal immigrants live in poverty. Poverty makes them significantly more prone to crime (as they have limited paths to "truly" succeed)

But that's not fair you say! Why can one person have their citizenship but Mr. hard working illegal cant? They should have a system to prevent something like this!

Yes they do, its called a F'ing LINE. If you want entrance to this country wait in line with the rest of the people who are trying to do it legitimately as law abiding citizens!

Just because you skipped the legal system does not mean you have any right to be here, your TRESPASSING.


RE: good
By derwin on 2/20/2009 10:45:40 AM , Rating: 1
quote:
Yes they do, its called a F'ing LINE


amen.


RE: good
By Entropy42 on 2/20/2009 11:04:26 AM , Rating: 2
Think about all the legal immigrants that went through the process, and now watch others circumventing the system. Its not about keeping everyone out of the country, its about maintaining order.


RE: good
By Hiawa23 on 2/20/2009 10:10:03 AM , Rating: 2
Hiawa23, please realize that undocumented workers are consumers as well.

Tell me something I don't know. I think I understand just fine, all I am saying is this immigration problem that we have are causing alot of problems for this country, financially & othewise & someone needs to find a solution to it. No one is saying that they shouldn't have the opportunity to come here, all I am saying is there should be a process to do it legally, & that it is enforced, that's all I am saying. No one is making this a black & white issue although I understand what you are saying as I am a black guy & alot of ills in our country some try to make them black & white. All I am saying is the country can't continue supporting all these undocumented illegals, I think we all know they are human that goes without saying, but there must be a process that's enforced or the country is going to continue going down.


RE: good
By HumanRights on 2/21/2009 1:47:49 AM , Rating: 2
Are you implying this country is "going down" because of immigrants?

If you are so worried about the "some" not paying taxes, then why not make them? Why not make them pay taxes by documenting them? It seems like an inane argument to make, we complain "some" do not pay taxes but we provide no way for them to do it? Did you know of all the undocumented Irish? All the undocumented Canadians? All of the students that came in got an education in Harvard, MIT, etc. from all parts of the world and did not get to stay and contribute because our system is trash? Do you know of the hundreds of thousands of asylum cases that were rejected eight or ten years after these people had been living here ("legally") and were told to get out? (Paying taxes and with their kids coming out in the top of their class). So I ask again, what is the right thing to do, then? We need a balance of enforcement (getting rid of those with felonies and serious crimes) and keeping those that have made a positive impact in our community.

quote:
"here should be a process to do it legally, & that it is enforced"


Yes, I totally agree. But a comprehensive bill will also provide for those already here, agree?


RE: good
By derwin on 2/20/2009 10:43:42 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
please realize that undocumented workers are consumers as well.


They also rarely pay income tax, social security, work for less than minimum wage (driving down wages for tax-paying workers) and disporportionately utilize government services (paid for by tax payers).

That is why it is called "illegal."

You can bleed your heart out all day, but you still got to pay someone to clean up after you when you are done.


RE: good
By HumanRights on 2/21/2009 1:51:41 AM , Rating: 2
Billions of dollars is "rarely paid"? They would surely pay all of what we asked of them if we gave them an SSN to pay...surely more than what Geithner is paying anyway.

Billions of tax dollars paid by undocumented immigrants with their ITIN:
http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmod...


RE: good
By mindless1 on 2/19/2009 2:17:30 PM , Rating: 3
yes they will accept such terms, those terms being minimum wage or didn't anyone realize there are millions of minimum wage American citizens? We could say some won't accept that but in reality anyone willing to work simply gets the best job they can, some of those being lower paying than others.


RE: good
By Ammohunt on 2/19/2009 2:28:25 PM , Rating: 2
In the long term companies will not have the option of cheap unskilled labor and will have to pay Americans a little more for these same types of jobs.


RE: good
By crystal clear on 2/20/2009 8:10:26 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
This is really the heart of America's long term financial/economic problem.


Wrong the real problem is greed,fraud,tax evasion,mismanagement,by managers/people at the hihgest levels in all sectors of the economy.

From fraudsters like Madoff,(sir)Allen Stanford to greedy,unfit managers like HECTOR from AMD to others in the banking/financial sectors,who get huge bonuses & salaries for mismanagement & huge losses.

Read this-

Crisis-hit UBS settled late on Wednesday U.S. criminal charges that it had helped rich Americans to dodge taxes. But U.S. tax authorities said on Thursday they were still pursuing a civil lawsuit seeking to access the data of 52,000 American clients of UBS in what is known as a John Doe summons

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssInvestmentServi...

quote:
Which is a big if.


Do it the Intel way-

Intel, while generating more than 75 percent of its sales overseas, carries out roughly 75 percent of its semiconductor manufacturing in the U.S. At the same time, about 75 percent of the company's R&D spending and capital investments are also made in the U.S.


http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20...

If Intel can be competitive & turn out huge profits, so can the others in the USA.


RE: good
By tastyratz on 2/19/2009 12:04:12 PM , Rating: 5
Kids hate eating their vegetables but starved for a week and broccoli tastes sweet.

Desperate times call for desperate measures.

Those less than glamorous jobs hold appeal during a recession when many have no way to put food on your table.

ANY kind of job is the kind of job unemployed citizens need.


RE: good
By therealnickdanger on 2/19/2009 1:52:29 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
ANY kind of job is the kind of job unemployed citizens need.

Not when you get free money for doing nothing. If we took away all of our welfare programs, I can guarantee that Americans would take all those jobs in a heartbeat. Illegals wouldn't be able to find work.


RE: good
By Parhel on 2/19/2009 2:44:26 PM , Rating: 1
Unemployment benefits have helped many hard working Americans avoid financial ruin. Ideology aside, they and many other welfare programs are a net positive for our society.

If someone loses a job paying $80K, taking a job paying $15K isn't going to help much in paying his or her bills. Unemployment benefits are there to prevent that person from filing for bankrupcy and in turn becoming a much larger burden on the economy.

Don't throw the baby out with the bath water. Just as hackers will surely bypass any security method, there will always be those who game the system. But welfare benefits are designed to help honest people, and are limited in several ways to at least try and prevent abuse by those who are just lazy and would prefer not to work.


RE: good
By A Stoner on 2/19/2009 3:46:43 PM , Rating: 5
Unemployment is also a PAID benifit. The money is taken from employers as Unemployment Insurance Tax. It showed up in my paycheck every week when I was in California. No worse than Social Security as far as I can say, and in fact probably much less of a burden on Society as a whole.


RE: good
By clovell on 2/19/2009 12:11:55 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, nevermind the fact that we're still exploiting them, eh?


RE: good
By letsdothis on 2/19/2009 12:16:18 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Really? Picking tomatoes in the sun or laying carpet in an office building with no air circulation for $15 a day? Those are the kinds of jobs unemployed citizens need?
Wise up. Most illegal immigrants do the work that Americans aren't willing to. Do you really think some unemployed factory worker would be willing to do the work that an illegal immigrant would? Nope. Until you're ready to start paying double for food, construction and cleaning services, get off the illegals' backs.
quote:


i have no idea where this notion comes from, most of my family was in the construction industry till the illegals came in and took it over and forced them out do to the fact that they could do the same work not same quality for a lower price, to say that they take the jobs americans dont want to do is absurd. someone had to be doing them before they came, its just an excuse for those that employ them to use so they can justify their excuses. i am sure that its not quite that simple and the fact is that we have long made it seem that folks that do those types of jobs are lower class citizens then the ones that go to college and get degrees so that they can "make it" and there werent enough workers to fill some of the less appealing jobs, but to make a broad statement such as that they only do jobs that americans dont want is crazy. i personally enjoyed working in construction as it left me to do things by myself and didnt have to listen to bs all the time.


RE: good
By bissimo on 2/19/2009 12:29:05 PM , Rating: 5
It's not a matter of if there are Americans willing to the work. I'm sure there are plenty of folks who would happily take those kinds of jobs, but at a wage that they are used to. Also, to say that most illegals are exploited is an exaggeration. You have to look at things in perspective. If you came from a poor-as-dirt town in Mexico and were offered enough money to support your entire family back home, you would take it. From a native-born American's perspective, that job pays half of their unemployment benefit. What's the use? They are much better of staying on unemployment until something more attractive comes along. It's simple economics.
In response to the notion that illegal immigrants don't do the quality of work that Americans do, I couldn't disagree more. I have had hired numerous contractors and have found that those that employ illegals do higher quality work and are more likely to finish on time and on budget. From my experience, and where I live (Texas) this is a commonly held viewpoint.


RE: good
By callmeroy on 2/19/2009 12:37:52 PM , Rating: 4
1) YAWN this argument is always used -- they are jobs americans aren't willing to do...and to some extent the point makes sense. HOWEVER, I disagree with the assumption that no one would do a needed job if illegals didn't do it. If your wife does all the house work, would just live like a damn slob then if she stopped doing it? If illegals stopped picking tomatoes you think the food industry would just say "oh ok no more tomatoe products now" and folks would just cut them out of their diet? I have no problem with folks from other countries coming here, but do it LEGALLY. Then you can do any job you want and I don't care.

2) Poor them being exploited.....who forced them to come here first of all? Secondly, remember the term ILLEGAL as in they are breaking the laws -- so its woe to the poor law breakers and forget the immigrants waiting in line for sometimes YEARS to enter the country the "right" way? Damn this story is so old.

3) Remember guys these folks who are illegally here are still being supported by US tax payers and in most cases our brilliant states still give them the same rights as native born citizens.....So I don't want to hear about poor exploited immigrants -- a) they don't pay taxes (most of them) , b) yet they reap the rewards of tax funded programs and privileges, c) they essentially "butt" in line in front of folks coming in the legal way, d) a proportionally high % of illegal immigrants commit criminal acts when in our nation's borders -- ie. assumably honest legal citizens are their victims.

So yeah....I shed no tears for the "plight" of illegal immigrants.


RE: good
By clovell on 2/19/2009 1:49:26 PM , Rating: 1
Okay, I agreed with your first point, but the rest rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah, they're here illegally, but that doesn't make them any less human than you or I.

Let's consider, eh? If they were legalized, they'd be paid at minimum wage, would have SS, medicare, etc taken out of their check, etc. Employers would lose all the benefit they gain from employing them. Problem reduced to manageable levels.

Furthermore, employers exploit these workers - it's not like they can go to the police or form a labor union. My point isn't that we should excuse that they broke the law. My point is that human beings don't deserve to be treated this way. My point is that two wrongs don't make a right (illegals entering the country illegally for jobs that treat them like garbage).

Either build a damned fence and get serious about keeping them out, or grant them some sort of rights to protect them, make them work and pay taxes. This business of half-assing immigration control pisses me off. We're condoning indentured servanthood (yeah, I said it - those people chose to do that too, but unless you're a die-hard libertarian, I think we can all agree we're glad that's over) in the g-damned 21st century because we're too lazy to do this right.


RE: good
By A Stoner on 2/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: good
By melgross on 2/19/2009 5:22:10 PM , Rating: 2
Wow!

You are adding to a real problem.

The fact that your ancestors came here for a better life doesn't enter into the equation, does it?

We often demand that countries allow their people to leave.

There are two sides to the coin here. One is that you can't get angry at people who flee bad situations that they can't do anything about to find a better life. On the other hand, that doesn't mean that we should be happy at having too many people entering, wherever they are from.

Companies should be heavily fined. Enough so that they would see that it costs more to hire people at these low wages than it would be to hire people legally. That would end enough of the problem so that the rest didn't matter.

It's not right to demean these people though. They are trying to do what is best for their families. You can't blame them for that.

The people patiently waiting in line for work visas are rarely in the situation that these people are in, so it's easier for them to wait.

You have to blame the corrupt governments from the countries they come from.

I would be with you on that.


RE: good
By Keeir on 2/19/2009 6:47:53 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
It's not right to demean these people though. They are trying to do what is best for their families. You can't blame them for that.


Wait...

Can I go and take all the stuff from your house then?... after all its best for my family to have those things.

I see your point, but illegal aliens are intentionally and knownily breaking the law. In many ways its no different than any other form of law breaking. If I am starving, it doesn't give me the right to steal.

quote:
The people patiently waiting in line for work visas are rarely in the situation that these people are in, so it's easier for them to wait.


Wait... we should embrace those willing to circumvent the law to the deteriment of those willing to obey the law?

That makes no sense.


RE: good
By HumanRights on 2/19/2009 7:49:39 PM , Rating: 3
The founding fathers broke the law, and we do not berate them for having done so. An unjust law is no law at all.

Undocumented immigrants are not thieves:

http://waysandmeans.house.gov/hearings.asp?formmod...


RE: good
By Targon on 2/20/2009 8:20:19 AM , Rating: 2
Those who come to this country, work, but then send money out of the country are draining money from the economy. If people are here illegally and are not paying any taxes, there is no benefit to the economy in any way, except what they spend here in THIS country.

Now, in exchange for any benefit these people may provide to the local economy, the vast majority do not have health insurance, but they DO go to the hospital for medical coverage because by law, they can NOT be turned away due to a lack of health coverage, and they never pay for the expenses they have stuck on the LEGAL tax payers.

It isn't just illegal immigrants, it is all about those who siphon money out of the economy just to send it out of the country. Those who come here legally with their family(also legally) I have no problem with, but don't try to say that putting limits on immigration, and saying that people who want to come here and work here MUST "ask for permission" is not unjust.

There are some laws that are unjust, but when it comes to immigration, it is only logical when these people take resources from the USA and their contribution does not match what they take, then there is a problem.

In the same way that many people dislike people on permanent welfare, who live off the taxpayer money without giving any benefit back to the economy, people feel the same way about others who are a drain on the economy.

With that said, some illegal immigrants DO keep their money here in the country and are not draining money from the country. The problem is that so many are only a drain that something SHOULD be done about the problem.

Now, if you want to suggest that those illegals are on par with those who fought for this country and broke away from England, then maybe we should treat this like a war, and we have an invading force...what do you do with an invading force then? You shoot those who are invading to protect your country from the invaders.

And yes, that is a part of why US forces have problems in Iraq, because some people there treat the US forces as an invading force, not as a force trying to help them.


RE: good
By HumanRights on 2/21/2009 1:38:38 AM , Rating: 2
"Those who come to this country, work, but then send money out of the country are draining money from the economy."

It's a global market, look at any country in Central and South American and you'll be surprised at how many McDonald's/Burger Kings/Fords/etc. you see. It isn't money "lost."


RE: good
By lagomorpha on 2/21/2009 3:06:29 AM , Rating: 2
McDonalds/Burger Kings are franchises. Not much of the profit goes directly to McDs HQ in Americaland. OTOH if you're going to worry about who gets the profit for every purchase you make there aren't many things you'll be able to buy.


RE: good
By Keeir on 2/20/2009 11:37:56 AM , Rating: 3
I did not say they were thieves and I am not saying they are particularly bad people

But to say that its okay to break the law because you "want to" is not right. Its no different than stealing something because you "want it". They are not thieves of goods, but they are thieving from the people who wait in line for Visas... thier own countrymen.

The Founding Fathers in fact struggled with the notion of breaking the law for many years. They attempted to follow the law as best they could... And for the most part, Illegal Aliens are not attempting to right any political wrong or precieved injustice.

Sorry, but I don't think "Rights" belong to those that need them the most.


RE: good
By HumanRights on 2/21/2009 2:17:26 AM , Rating: 1
Keeir, you can have all of the laws in the world and make everyone a criminal if you so wish. But simply because a law is a law, it does not mean it is correct or humane. I'm sure you know enough history to comprehend that statement. With that in mind, I am just simply trying to find a way to
solve this issue. It was unthinkable just 40 years ago that Colored and White Americans could live in a United States that was "separate but equal." Today, it might seem impossible to look at immigration in a comprehensive way, an unbiased way, but it's something we're gonna have to do if we really want a solution.

quote:
Sorry, but I don't think "Rights" belong to those that need them the most.


The Bill of Rights that our Founding Fathers wrote for us are basic human rights, and I love this country for providing those rights to anyone within this land. They are not just for citizens, residents, or visa holders. They are for all human beings....


RE: good
By A Stoner on 2/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: good
By clovell on 2/20/2009 2:23:08 PM , Rating: 2
Maybe you should add Speeders, and pot smokers onto your list as well, if we're going to equivocate all criminal acts. Welcome to the world and all its shades of gray.

For the record, I'm conservative - I vote republican 9 times out of 10. I just don't think it's fair to strip the certain inalienable rights upon which our nation was birthed from people. I did not call for 'legalizing' these people. I never called them 'victims', either.

The difference between these people and boxers is that a boxer can retire whenever he wants. Now, I can sign onto these folks being less deserving than those who pursue legal options to immigration. I can't however, fathom treating them like garbage.

Whether or not you can or even should muster any sympathy for them was not my point. The point is that the situation in reality is bad. Our conceptions of right and wrong on the issue have only translated into maintaining the status quo (which we agree is not good), and it's about damned time something be done about it.


RE: good
By HumanRights on 2/21/2009 1:27:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The point is that the situation in reality is bad. Our conceptions of right and wrong on the issue have only translated into maintaining the status quo (which we agree is not good), and it's about damned time something be done about it.


Well said, Clovell, that is exactly my point.


RE: good
By HumanRights on 2/21/2009 1:27:52 PM , Rating: 2
2009 has to be the year.


RE: good
By Slappi on 2/19/2009 9:25:43 PM , Rating: 2
Paco? Is that you Paco?


RE: good
By the goat on 2/19/2009 1:05:19 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Wise up. Most illegal immigrants do the work that Americans aren't willing to. Do you really think some unemployed factory worker would be willing to do the work that an illegal immigrant would? Nope. Until you're ready to start paying double for food, construction and cleaning services, get off the illegals' backs.


You need to wise up. Not all parts of the USA have illegals or even legal immigrants to take these jobs away from citizens. Here in Vermont lawn care companies are not staffed by illegal laborers. I can say the same thing about construction companies and cleaning services and farm work and fast food workers, and snow removal, etc. . . These jobs are all staffed by U.S. citizens. The Apocalypse has yet to arrive.

A friend of mine from California came here and was surprised to find out that, "White people work at McDonald's!"


RE: good
By Targon on 2/20/2009 8:32:33 AM , Rating: 2
It always surprises me here in NY when I find people who speak English working at a McDonalds...then again, it is even more shocking when you find someone who speaks English even as a second language working at Kmart.


RE: good
By DrKlahn on 2/19/2009 1:50:59 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Most illegal immigrants do the work that Americans aren't willing to. Do you really think some unemployed factory worker would be willing to do the work that an illegal immigrant would? Nope. Until you're ready to start paying double for food, construction and cleaning services, get off the illegals' backs.


Indeed. The real solution is to scale back welfare programs to encourage Americans to work rather than consider themselves "to good" for such jobs. I would certainly pay more for such services if it resulted in a tax savings from less welfare spending.


RE: good
By mindless1 on 2/19/2009 2:13:45 PM , Rating: 3
Great to see these crazy stereotypes. American citizens DO pick tomatoes, lay carpet, and all those other jobs you're implying MUST be done ONLY by illegal aliens.

What happens is the illegals take the jobs for very low pay, so we end up with unemployed Americans that are a burden on society AND the burden of the illegals when it comes to healthcare/etc. That's not a lower cost for goods and services, it's just a shell game of where the costs are to the taxpayers.

Lastly, your wage rate is questionable, it's unlikely most illegals are working for a mere $15 a day in the US but even if it were true it does not matter. They are ILLEGAL aliens, you can't just selectively pick and choose which laws are ok to break then argue it from a perspective of "it's ok because I'm greedy for cheaper XYZ". If you don't like the laws get them changed, or move to another country instead of condoning breaking them.


RE: good
By A Stoner on 2/19/2009 2:29:03 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Really? Picking tomatoes in the sun or laying carpet in an office building with no air circulation for $15 a day? Those are the kinds of jobs unemployed citizens need?

Yes, actually they are the jobs our unemployed need.

The first thing is that these jobs have been done by Americans for generations, and there is nothing wrong with them. This proves the lie already.

The second thing is that Americans will do the job, they always have. The question is how much money is it worth. The reason it is a $15 and hour job is not because that is what the job is worth, it is because that is what someone is willing to do it for. Foreigners, particularly from poor countries will work for far less money than an American will work for, thus driving a job that Americans would do, into a job Americans will not do.

Secondly, foreigners are not taking jobs that Americans will not do, they are increasing the compitition for these jobs and driving the value of labor lower and lower. Low enough that Americans find it hard to do the job and live as comfortably as their parents did. Each generation is supposed to turn over to their heirs a country that is better than the one they inherited. This generation is handing over a country that in many ways and in many sectors is far inferior to the one they inherited.

Companies will hire illegals because illegals have few if any legal rights, and Americans thus come with a higher liability just from that. Business people understand liability far more than most people do. no workers comp, maybe no taxes to be paid for the laborer, and lower wages all conspire to keep these jobs undervalued and thus unwanted by Americans who grew up in households with much better living standards than the job will allow them to live.

Are these jobs really only worth what the employers pay, or is it really the fact that compitition has driven the value of these jobs down? I would argue it is the fault of the immigrants driving the value of the job down, and not the fact that these jobs are just not valuable.

In many instances, this cheap labor keeps prices for consumers lower, but should consumers benifit from child labor? Should consumers benifit from illegal activity? Should consumers look forward to a world where slavery is again in vogue, because, well, no legal human would want to do these kinds of jobs? Thus we will have to eventually make illegal humans, slaves in other words, to do these jobs. Who are these illegal humans going to be? Will they be black? White? Red headed step children? Asians? Hispanics? I mean seriously, if you want to stick to the idea that these jobs are just so valueless that Americans could not do them, then at some point in time there will not even be aliens that find value in them, but they must be done, right?


RE: good
By mondo1234 on 2/19/2009 3:18:43 PM , Rating: 2
Many states have minimum wage laws. If you are caught paying less, you face prosecution regardless of status. It shouldn't matter who you hire, legally, they should be paid the same.


RE: good
By Parhel on 2/19/2009 5:19:52 PM , Rating: 2
We have a federal minimum wage, and then states have the option of adding a minimum wage above and beyond that.

However, if you're employing illegal aliens, you are already breaking other laws. If caught, I doubt that you would be prosecuted for violating the minimum wage law.


RE: good
By straycat74 on 2/19/2009 3:58:02 PM , Rating: 2
You always pay the same, illegals or not. The only benefit is to the contractor who puts the money in his pocket instead of giving it to his workers.


RE: good
By King of Heroes on 2/19/2009 4:57:39 PM , Rating: 2
I agree with this.

As much as I think the illegal immigration problem is out of control, and I agree with the bill in that it favors legal citizens over illegal ones, alot of modern Americans wouldn't be caught dead doing the kind of labor illegal workers do, at least not at the same cost.

I believe one thing about unemployment, its not necessarily that jobs are unavailable, its that jobs that the average American would be willing to do are unavailable. If you took a bum off the street and told him you could get him a job cleaning rooftops for 12 hours a day under the sun, do you he'd take it? You'd be amazed what kind of 'standards' people will invoke even when they have no room to be invoking standards.


RE: good
By Spuke on 2/19/2009 5:47:30 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Most illegal immigrants do the work that Americans aren't willing to.
Bullsh!t!!! We already had Americans doing this work before the illegals came. Who do you think was doing it before?


RE: good
By Parhel on 2/19/2009 6:42:08 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
. . . before the illegals came


I think, when talking about immigration, it's useful to look at US history to help see past the rhetoric. Until 1882, we had no restrictions on immigration whatsoever.

And, prior to 1965, any Mexican who cared to could pretty easily walk, fly, or drive across the border and become a US citizen. Basically, illegal immigration was born from the immigration reforms of 1965.

I believe the founding fathers would lean strongly towards the "legalize everyone" side of the immigration argument. The day the US becomes just another nice place to live, and we cease to be a beacon of freedom and democracy for the rest of the world, is the day we start to die. Let's not forget what's written at the bottom of the Statue of Liberty either.

Despite the all the hot air from all of the pundits and politicians, the current immigrant percentage of the American population is really very low, historically speaking.


RE: good
By HumanRights on 2/19/2009 7:47:28 PM , Rating: 2
Well said Parhel, I'm glad to see that there are people that can see the bigger picture when discussing this issue. Spreading hateful words does not solve the problem. The fact that I was rated down and silenced (though I presented facts and not simply opinions) is a demonstration of the lack of understanding, compassion and understanding. It is easy to stand up and throw stones at a group of people when everyone else seems to be doing it...even if it isn't fair or humane.



RE: good
By zsejk on 2/20/2009 7:11:48 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The day the US becomes just another nice place to live, and we cease to be a beacon of freedom and democracy for the rest of the world, is the day we start to die.


I don't think you'll start to die, but otherwise.... being from the rest of the world... that was hilarious.


RE: good
By Targon on 2/20/2009 12:24:53 PM , Rating: 3
The problems came in when the economic balance has been broken so badly that hospitals, health care, and all of these other services are causing cities and even the federal government to go broke.

So, look at it from the perspective of how generous people are at different times. When most people have a lot of money, and they are doing well financially, they can be more generous.

When times are good, it isn't a problem if some illegal immigrants are getting health care that is paid for by society as a whole.

When hospitals are being closed due to financial problems, and schools are overflowing with children who have parents who do not pay into the school tax system, there IS a problem. Note that in many places, hospitals can not turn away ANYONE by law, even if the patients will never pay for the care they receive. It may cost $5000, and the hospital will never receive a penny from an illegal who can't be traced. Schools are paid for by home owners, so when those who rent and do not own have the majority of children in the school system, and there is no test for legal residence of the parents, then again, society is paying for children of illegal immigrants who do not pay taxes.

Society as a whole is paying more for these illegal immigrants and their children than the illegal immigrants are bringing to the country.

The founding fathers were from a time when the government was not involved in "saving" those who could not afford to live. People were out of work, and were starving to death, but government was not trying to save everyone because the federal government was not in the position to save anyone. So, if you want to see what our founding fathers might do, they would let those who can't afford to eat starve, or beg for food, or become prostitutes.

If hospitals were run more like a business instead of a public service, then turning away people who could not afford health care, or if it were questionable that those they serve would be able to pay, then hospitals would be profitable and would not be closing across the country. If schools were run like businesses, then only children of legal US residence would be allowed in the schools, and a requirement that the children know the English language before being allowed in classes. As it stands, because you have people who just don't understand economics running things, stupid policies have been the norm instead of the exception.


RE: good
By Noya on 2/19/2009 11:41:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Really? Picking tomatoes in the sun or laying carpet in an office building with no air circulation for $15 a day?


Wrong.

I live in Oregon's Willamette Valley (which is quickly looking like Mexico) and illegals don't work for $2/hour- even the one's who just jumped the border working the fields are making more than minimum wages ($8.50 I think). They're buying/opening businesses, restaurants, etc. Nearly every large business in town has bilingual employees to cater to them (real estate, banks, car dealers, etc).

When I was in high school 97-01, nearly every fast food joint was full of white kids working. Now, it's nothing but Mexicans except at the local Dairy Queen. It's just like that episode of South Park, "Goobacks" in California, Oregon and Washington. It sucks.


RE: good
By Targon on 2/20/2009 8:01:00 AM , Rating: 2
You are talking about the illegal immigrants, not those who are legal. Those who are here legally and are working legally get at least the minimum wage, which is quite a bit higher than $15/day.

When the economy is bad, and people do not have jobs, they will take whatever job(s) they can get to pay the bills. The problem is when there are no jobs for people to take after they lose a job.

So, it makes sense, give those people who call this country THEIR country the jobs before giving the job to those "guest" workers who are also looking for work. If people want to call the USA home because they work here, then they should give their loyalty to the USA, not the country they came here from.

When times are tough, people need to take care of their own people, meaning citizens, and permanent residents first. If there are no qualified applicants, THEN those from other countries can get the jobs.

People keep saying that immigrants are only taking the jobs no one wants, but in a bad economic climate, people will take the jobs they don't really care for, just because they NEED the job. I know that if I were unemployed, I would work as a ditch digger or do other hard work to pay the bills so I can pay the mortgage. Most(but not all) people feel the same way.


RE: good
By derwin on 2/20/2009 10:39:20 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
Picking tomatoes in the sun or laying carpet in an office building with no air circulation for $15 a day? Those are the kinds of jobs unemployed citizens need?


You spoiled brat.

Seriously? Are you above picking tomatoes?
If the work is legal you would get paid more like $80-100/day. Thats upwards of $2000 a month. That wont pay for a benz, but until your spoiled ass can find a real job thats a heck of a lot better than waiting for your unemployment check to come from the government.

Work is work. Go eat some grapes if you think otherwise.

quote:
Until you're ready to start paying double for food, construction and cleaning services, get off the illegals' backs.

You're argument implies that you deserve those flawedly priced products. Why is that? So you can have more other crap? People whine about not being able to pay their bills but live in a 3kSqft house and keep the AC/heat on all day.
We have something to the effect of an inverse bubble in food and other labor intensive services. The market needs to be corrected and until we start paying correct labor costs for such items that bubble will propogate and deepen.

Freaking Americans. We all feel so entitled. If its not a welfare check we think is owed to us its a tax break, fancy car or a big house... or nowadays, its big poppa government to come in and fix everything.
You get what you pay for, and we are not paying for this at all...


RE: good
By Rob94hawk on 2/20/2009 8:47:14 PM , Rating: 2
That old propaganda saying that "illegals will do what Americans will not" is crap. Cheap labor is the name of the game. Businesses are built knowing they can get cheap labor and increase profits. DUUURRRRR!!!

25 BILLION goes to mexico YEARLY from the US thanx to illegal immigration. Meanwhile our new government is coming up with new ways to tax the American citizens now more than ever.

Time to put AMERICA to work and kick all the freeloading illegals out.


RE: good
By pugster on 2/19/2009 12:03:02 PM , Rating: 2
Many companies who work in these IT companies don't hire H1B workers directly. They usually hire consultants from other companies who hire these H1B workers go around the law.


RE: good
By the goat on 2/19/2009 1:07:35 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
They usually hire consultants from other companies

I think you mean "contractors"?


RE: good
By randomposter on 2/19/2009 12:06:54 PM , Rating: 1
I'm wondering, does your viewpoint change if we talk about future innovation and productivity? For example, if a company generates 5% fewer patents over the next decade (and those innovations are instead registered by European or Asian firms) as a result of having to pass on the best available talent, is that an acceptable tradeoff in your estimation? What about 10%? What about 1%?

None of this stuff is black and white you know. There are tradeoffs in everything.


RE: good
By clovell on 2/19/2009 12:13:18 PM , Rating: 2
I didn't read that companies have to pass on the best talent - they just have to give American applicant who are at least as qualified a fair shake.


RE: good
By randomposter on 2/19/2009 1:24:53 PM , Rating: 2
Define "at least as qualified" in the context of a complex IT project with lots of players bringing highly specialized talents to the table.

Now, who is in the best position to determine the most qualified candidate: the hiring manager at the company in question or a bureaucrat working in the visa office?


RE: good
By A Stoner on 2/19/2009 3:14:47 PM , Rating: 2
Those patents will still be made by Americans because it is going to happen in American companies by American workers instead of by foreign workers. If these people are going to make patents, who will they have been working for in Europe who is not already trying to hire those people? Are the people just going to make those patents on their own, then it does not matter what country issues the patent, because it ends up in the control of the foreigner anyways.

Americans are not < Foreigner. It is just that in many instances we lack enough people educated to a certain level in a specific feild. The longer we continue to allow foreigners to have carte blanche in these feilds the fewer and fewer Americans will enter these fields and we become ever more dependent on foreigners with a much higher potential desire to steal trade secrets and national secrets than American citizens are.

As you said, there are tradeoffs. Which is more compelling, having our nuclear secrets stolen, or maybe losing a few brains to foreign nations who do not have the ability to replicate what we do here in the USA either way?


RE: good
By omnicronx on 2/19/2009 12:52:10 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think its a good idea at all. If these really are skilled workers that are being hired on the basis of skill and not the price they will have to pay them, this could be much do more worse long term than good. If the talent is not coming into the US, it has to be going elsewhere, which very well could create stiffer competition to American companies from foreign companies that do accept these workers.

Whats ever worse is many of the companies in need will have to hire more than one worker to replace the skilled immigrant worker, which will cost them more money. This does not seem like a good business plan for a company in need of bailout cash.


RE: good
By s12033722 on 2/19/2009 2:52:43 PM , Rating: 1
Actually, it's a horrible idea. There are many fields, especially in hard engineering, where there are simply not enough US engineers available to fill the needs of companies. The last company I worked at had about 20% H1-B workers, and not because they were trying to save money - the H1-B guys got the same salaries we did. When we brought in candidates, it was hard to find qualified candidates. If the person with the skills to do the job was on an H1-B, that was fine. We just needed the help.

Take a look at the electrical engineering and mechanical engineering graduating classes and faculty sometime. They are at least 50% foreign. The US students usually don't want to work that hard, so they go the easier route of IT, CS, MIS, etc.


RE: good
By Keeir on 2/19/2009 4:12:30 PM , Rating: 2
Ummmmm...

Part of the reason thier is a lack of candiates for "Hard" engineering jobs is that the salaries and benifits of many of these fields is not equal to the amount of effort and intelligence required...

I work as a "Hard Engineer" and work with H1-B workers. Many of whom are fantastic and hard to image replacing them with anyone. However, I also work with people (most US) who have essentially 2-year degrees. Sad truth is that the 2-year degree people are making 75-80% of the "Hard Engineer" 's salary. They have less responsibility, less quality and quantity expectations, and of course have to use thier brain alot less.

I also remember in school... you could be an Engineer or a Pharmacist... both took around the same amount of time schooling wise (assusing that most engineers get at least a masters... which is true in my company) but one's initial salary is significantly higher... with less work and not much difference in responsibiltity..

Not sure why a reasonable person in the US would choose to go into Hard Engineering unless it was a passion... and thats what is being backed up by the numbers.


RE: good
By s12033722 on 2/19/2009 4:43:37 PM , Rating: 2
I agree. I am also a hard engineer, and I have to say that I could easily make 85% of the money for 50% of the effort and responsibility, probably less. I enjoy the challenge of design enough to make it worth it, but that's not true for everyone. Also, I have to say that life would be difficult without a lot of the 2-year degree people and exceptional techs I work with. I don't mean to denigrate their contibutions.

The problem comes in when we enact legislation intended to protect jobs for US workers when the US workers are not there to be hired. When these restrictions are in place and the H1-B draw is finished, if you can't get the person you need there are only two options - attempt to steal a person from another company with better pay (thus leaving them short of workers) or overload the people you do have. Schedules slip, people are overworked, and mistakes are made. It's a bad situation all around.

Restricting H1-B visas is a misguided way to try to address the problems we face. All it will do is drive more R&D overseas where there are qualified workers available or force worse working conditions on those of us here in the US.


RE: good
By Keeir on 2/19/2009 6:58:05 PM , Rating: 2
Oh I agree..

It would be painful for a few years, but if "Hard Engineers" were paid at a level that reflect the skills and effort the job typically requires, more talented individuals would presure being a "Hard Engineer".

The fact companies are sponsering the H1-B visas has had a negative effect on "Hard Engineer" salaries since H1-B visa recieptants typically settle for lower rates based on skill level than the same skill level American worker. (IE, H1-B visa holders typically get paid average, but since the competition is so much more are usually higher than average skill/effort)


RE: good
By jiminmpls on 2/19/2009 6:05:38 PM , Rating: 5
As usual, most of the people on here don't know what they're talking about.

HB-1 visa holders are legal residents working high level engineering and IT jobs for which there is a severe shortage of qualified American workers. Associates Degrees and substandard BS degrees don't cut it in the real world. Limiting HB-1 visas will simply force companies to outsource more work to Asia.


RE: good
By Targon on 2/20/2009 12:34:14 PM , Rating: 2
The original subject comes back to getting workers in the USA jobs, and the federal government is encouraging the hiring of US citizens rather than hiring those from other countries. If no US citizens are available to do the job, then there is no problem hiring those from other countries.

There is no increased restrictions that limit how many people from other countries come to the USA, just that employers SHOULD be focused on taking care of people in THIS country before they look to those from outside the country. So, when times are tough, take care of "your own" before you try to save the rest of the world. When the economy recovers, then policies can relax again, but for now, I would rather see those citizens who are unemployed get priority over those from other countries.


RE: good
By MrPoletski on 2/20/2009 5:49:18 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
The few companies that do hire a large percentage of H1-B workers, such as Microsoft, are deemed "H1-B Dependent" and have special restrictions placed on them by the federal government.


Well that's it, even when it's a subject as abstract as immigration... you can still blame microsoft! :D


RE: good
By BZDTemp on 2/20/2009 7:56:50 AM , Rating: 2
This is stupid. More often than not foreign workers are very cheap for America.

Basically America gets free educated people which work and pay taxes after which they leave before they get old and become a burden to society.


Someone has to say it...
By bighairycamel on 2/19/2009 11:39:06 AM , Rating: 2
Sorry foreign workers, if you really want to work here you have to realize this isn't the land the opportunity it once was. Jobs simply don't exist. I can understand the appeal of American universities, but once you get your degree you're in the same boat as the rest of us... in a flooded market of unemployed citizens.




RE: Someone has to say it...
By Lord 666 on 2/19/2009 11:42:51 AM , Rating: 2
Holder was correct that we have become a nation of cowards. Frankly tired of the PC nonsense.

Don't understand where this comes from
quote:
Many of these financial services, credit card companies use H-1B for specialized IT talent related to risk management, enterprise systems,
as the security pro's I know are all US born.


RE: Someone has to say it...
By roostitup on 2/19/2009 12:00:34 PM , Rating: 2
I hear ya! Don't except a job in your field out of college! It just simply won't happen. Non-foreign citizens are more likely to get jobs, too. Stay in your country of origin, the job market is much better!


RE: Someone has to say it...
By Etsp on 2/19/2009 12:03:11 PM , Rating: 1
you meant expect, not except, right?


RE: Someone has to say it...
By roostitup on 2/19/2009 12:04:21 PM , Rating: 2
LOL ya, the coffee has got to me! :)


RE: Someone has to say it...
By spwrozek on 2/19/2009 12:35:29 PM , Rating: 2
I graduated in December with three job offers and 2 second interviews turned down because I didn't want to move to Houston...

My wife has had it a bit harder with her chosen major but she also couldn't look for a job until we decided where we were going based on my job. She is employed now though soo...


RE: Someone has to say it...
By bmheiar on 2/19/2009 1:00:14 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, it takes time to find a job after college unless you are the top 5-10% of your class (the elite of the elite). I had classmates who all had 4.0 and be offered jobs with Boeing (weapon R&D division), IBM, Intel, AMD, the government & etc., right after college. I was an average student and after graduation in 05, it took me over 2 years to find job that applied to my BSEE degree. I had to quit working retail to focus more on finding a job that applied to my degree, before anyone would really seriously consider looking at me and give me an interview. Instead of telling me that the only experience I have is working in retail & etc., that I need experience in my degree field before they would be willing to hire me. I even had one interviewing manager at IBM advise me to put on my resume that I am a US citizen with documentation to prove it. So a lot of companies are not willing to hire someone who does not have the experience already acquired, because they do not want to put in the time, money, effort & etc., into teaching, training, & etc., into you and then run the risk of you jumping ship for a better paying job at another company after getting the training & experience. That is what I ran into during those 2 years of off and on unemployed/temp work. So for over 2 years I was basically unemployed, other than the temp jobs I was working at to get experience that was other than in retail.

Until a job offer landed in my lap with a power company. I was told they were looking for any engineer with power experience, since there is a shortage. To few colleges are teaching power engineering or offering classes that gives at least the basics. The power company I work for is still looking, all across the country, for any engineer with power experience. My background is in circuitry design, circuitry simulation, and lasers, but have had a class in power. So they offered me a job. We need more Americans to go to college in engineering specifically power & etc.. The majority of engineers & designers I work with, will be retiring in the next 5-15 years or so., and there are not enough new engineers to replace them when they do retire. This country's power infrastructure is inadequate and in need of a serious overhaul (replacement upgrade & etc) and if we do not have the designers, engineers & etc., to do it. We are going to have more problems in the future with not having enough power to go around. I can see this, after only been here for almost a year & half now. The power/electric industry is one that will never layoff or downsize, because everyone needs power/electricity.

I do work with many who are from other countries (Mexico, China, Russia, & etc.), but to my knowledge they are all now US citizens or have dual citizenship.


RE: Someone has to say it...
By ajira99 on 2/19/2009 2:52:22 PM , Rating: 2
True, but what we need are colleges that are willing to embrace technology courses that are relevant/beneficial to our national integrity. My college started dropping core engineering courses during my junior year to "streamline the process" for incoming freshmen. I basically took classes that I didn't need to graduate and spent money that could have been used elsewhere (books, tuition, etc.). Ultimately, the excuses given to use were pretty unsatisfactory. Frankly, they spent more time and money on sports and landscaping than they did on expanding the technology offerings.

It's really no wonder that we have fewer students graduating with science and engineering degrees, since it's just not "attractive" enough. I guess everybody thinks that they'll become a rap star or athlete instead.

As a slight rant, I'm tired of companies like Microsoft trying to cite the lack of innovation as a major concern regarding foreign workers. The fact is, there are a lot of highly skilled workers in America who could likely perform the same job as well as these imported "skilled" professionals given the chance or, heaven forbid, a modicum of training.

Too bad that job competency is such an underrated commodity is today's workforce.


RE: Someone has to say it...
By A Stoner on 2/19/2009 3:51:52 PM , Rating: 2
Average student at what you chose. Maybe you took the wrong calling. Maybe you picked your profession because of greed instead of ability. I am sure that if every single person were told they could be a doctor, all they had to do was show up to class for a while as soon as the classes are over someone will pay you $250,000 to $6,000,000 a year, there would be few people working in teaching, technology and everything else. Not all jobs/careers are for everyone. People who chose their profession for the wrong reason find it to be very dificult and the rest of soceity suffers their choices because they do a crappy job, are slow, and irritate people who actually took the right job.


RE: Someone has to say it...
By bmheiar on 2/19/2009 4:29:00 PM , Rating: 2
Yep, I am average. I had a 3.8 in HS, but once in college that changed. I am not rich nor are my parents. My parents did not pay for my college compared to what your parents probably did. I paid for it all by myself, by working full-time in retail 40+ hours a week. I did not use any student loans, because I did not want to be in debt up to my eyeballs after I graduated. Like what my older brother did and he is still paying on them even though he graduated 14 years ago. So it took me longer to graduate because I had to work full-time to pay for my tuition, books, and etc., along with rent, utilities, & etc. I had no help from no one compared to you and others. If my parents would have paid for it and I did not have to work and etc., yes I would have been far above average. I would have been one of those close to the 4.0 and etc. But I had to work for everything I achieved. Compared to you and others, with silver spoons in their mouths or trying to masquerade themselves as being that. Yes, I did struggle in college and I am better for it, instead of having mommy & daddy paying for it and/or giving it to me. Those who take the easy path, achieve nothing. I did not want to be a doctor, because that field did not interest me. If I was only in it for the money then I would have, but I am not in it for the money. I went into the Electrical Engineering program because I wanted to be a part of the community & industry that is improving and advancing technology. To keep progressing forward. Not for the money. I am actually making far more money then I expected to be making starting out, for a entry-level Design/Electrical Engineer (Engineering Associate I) for a power company. At least I step up to the plate and kept on moving forward against all my struggles in college and etc., to graduate. Instead of taking the easy way out or taking an easy degree program. I am in an area where there will be no layoffs or downsizing, because everyone & everything needs electricity. At least I am in an area that more people are needed and wanted. Can you say the same?


RE: Someone has to say it...
By A Stoner on 2/19/2009 5:06:07 PM , Rating: 2
I never finished college. I paid for the college I have (or am paying anyways). I got bad grades in college too. I was a 4.0 student in an Iowa school where only 8 out of the 165 students of my class got 4.0 GPAs. I did not complain that it is hard to find work though. The reason I got bad grades and never finished college is due to chronic migraine headaches, nothing to do with determination and ability to do the work assigned. If I missed one class, most teachers automatically deducted one full grade, thus highest possible was a B, two classes a C, three a D, four I might as well not show up. My Migraine headaches last anywhere from 36 hours to one that lasted 26 days, one 22 days, another 18 and the average normal one is about 3 days. Thus for a class meeting monday wednesday friday, all I needed was one migraine headache to start on sunday/early monday and last 5 days and I lost any chance for a passing grade. I typically got 2 migraines minimum a month when I was going to college, things have improved since then to counting per year now. I do not complain that I do not have opportunity, or someone else got a better deal than I did, although I do feel bitter about the fact that migraine is not a covered American's with Disability Act disability.

I started college with CLEP credits equal to 41 credits, I needed I think 62 or 64 credits to get an AS degree, and going full time it took me 4 years of fall, spring and summer classes to finally get enough credits to get my degree, but my GPA was measured in 0.x because of the number of failed courses I had from nothing more than missed classes. I waited three years for the failing grades to be forgiven and got my AS degree, and I have not tried to get my BS degree. I am employed, I like my field of work, I get paid well, I can afford a migraine or two a year.

All in all life is pretty damned good here in America. That is why I love my country, because overall, it is the single best place to live no matter who you are.


RE: Someone has to say it...
By Lord 666 on 2/19/2009 8:00:27 PM , Rating: 2
Strangely, someone would think drugs were involved in your poor marks in college.


neat
By GlassHouse69 on 2/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: neat
By Phlargo on 2/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: neat
By MaulBall789 on 2/19/2009 12:15:06 PM , Rating: 2
Glass house, indeed.


RE: neat
By Lonyo on 2/19/2009 12:20:44 PM , Rating: 2
I presume you are American born and bred, as were your parents, and their parents?
Without foreigners the US wouldn't be what it is (maybe that would be a good thing though).

I assume you are just trying to troll, but I decided to respond anyway.


RE: neat
By A Stoner on 2/19/2009 1:59:55 PM , Rating: 2
It all depends on the foreigner. Being a United States citizen or even being in the USA on invitation of a visa is a very good thing to be proud of and to have respect for. Many foreigners do not come to the USA to make it better, or even to make themselves better. Many come here out of greed and selfishness. The want to have access to all our success, but without the work required to attain it. They refuse to learn the language, they refuse to even respect our basic moral values. They demand amnesty for themselves after they have broken our laws and taken advantage of our generosity, standing in large crowds holding foreign flags, all the while telling us how immoral we are because we actually want to choose which foreigners will make the best naighbors for the rest of our citizenry. While this does not apply very well towards Work visa's, it does still apply towards many of the people who get these visas. I have worked with many, and most are respectful and fun to work with. Others, you have to question the reason they are even here in the USA. Always talking bad about our government, our rules, how much better it is back in their home country. I just tell them if it is so great there, go back and be happy.


RE: neat
By GlassHouse69 on 2/20/2009 12:02:58 AM , Rating: 1
aka leeches.

fuck foreigners.


RE: neat
By psypher on 2/19/2009 12:22:02 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah! Fuck my ancestors! And your ancestors too! (unless of course you are native american, which I'd be willing to bet against)


RE: neat
By A Stoner on 2/19/2009 2:10:29 PM , Rating: 1
Our ancestors, at least mine, integrated themselves into the society as a whole. They kept small bits of their ancestral culture, but tossed most of them by the way side and became Americans. This new generation of foreigners are not like the previous. These are coming in huge waves, creating whole zones of cities for themselves, demanding we accomodate them and their culture, and are not becoming Americans, but X-American, where the X is far more important to them than American. I do not mind people being allowed into the USA through legal means, but when 50% of the immigration is from illegal methods, such as crossing the border paperless, or overstaying a visa, or bribing our consolates to get visa's, I am not supportive.

Disrespecting these foreigners in no way demeans your families history. Your family is most likely not like the people the poster is referring to, even though this article is about work visa immigrants, I think he is refering to the immigrants I have described above. Those who demand we change our culture for them. Those who come illegally or stay illegally. Those who do not want to become American, but just want to rape our land, and when opportunity comes knocking somewhere else, off they go. I have to agree with him on those forigners, I hate them, I hate them to the core. They have no respect for my country, it's heritage, it's culture nor it's laws. The work visa foreigners, I think they are good for America, although some are not. But if it is between an American citizen and a foreigner who have nearly identical skills, all companies that operate in the USA should automatically hire the American, and if because the company refuses to hire qualified Americans in favor of foreigners, then even though I do not want my tax dollars spent, if they are to be spent, those companies should have requirements placed on them.


Gobal companies will just hire overseas
By Dribble on 2/19/2009 1:43:20 PM , Rating: 2
Most big companies have offices all over the world. e.g. If they can't bring that Indian worker into the US they will just keep him in their Bangalore office and he can work there.

These offices will expand and grow. The percentage of the company based in India will grow. It will be paying more taxes to the Indian goverment, hiring more Indian's to maintain it's larger Indian buildings, etc.

The net effect is India gets richer and America gets poorer.




RE: Gobal companies will just hire overseas
By A Stoner on 2/19/2009 3:25:00 PM , Rating: 2
America does not get poorer in your instance. India does get richer. It is like saying because china builds a car, that America lost out. If that car is sold in the USA, maybe an American lost out the job to make the car, but if the car sold in America, then there must have been a cost benifit to the person who bought it here in America, thus no loss. China made value and America made value out of the transaction.

The only thing America loses from not having more H1B visas is fewer American Corporation Trained people running around in other countries that are able to help make those countries corporations more like America's. H1B visa's are temporary, the people do not get citizenship, they go back home when the job is done.

If anything, having fewer H1B visas actually reduces America's compitition overseas by denying them the training they would have recieved working in a good American Corporation.


By Dribble on 2/20/2009 5:38:32 AM , Rating: 2
If you live and work in the US you pay US taxes, the US government takes your money. If you live and work in another country that country gets the taxes. How does that not mean that the US government has less money in it's coffers?

Equally as the foreign offices grow then all the work supplying those offices - building maintenance, computer equipment, suppliers for whatever product is being developed will all get sourced locally giving new jobs to the people in that country, not Americans. As the US office shrinks then there will be less work to maintain that smaller office. How does that not mean American's loose out on jobs?


By Targon on 2/20/2009 12:47:58 PM , Rating: 2
Those who are citizens, and those who have green cards are generally going to be in this country permanently. As such, the investment that companies put into permanent US residents will continue to benefit society here in the USA. Earned income will also tend to stay here in this country as well.

Those here on a work visa will generally not stay here, so investments in their continued professional growth may end up being wasted in the long term for the work force here in the USA. You may not see this as a loss in money for the USA, but in some very real ways, it isn't a good thing.

So, jobs...US policy SHOULD be focused on helping get jobs for US citizens, and a policy of "citizens and permanent residents first" makes sense.

Then, you also have a problem with outsourcing of jobs. Economics prior to the age of unlimited long distance phone calls and Voice Over IP and remote offices was based on the idea that you really wanted and needed to hire local employees to provide a service. The economics of the world today will allow companies to have employees in other countries instead of having them in their home country. This means that all US workers could be fired and replaced by those in another country. THAT is why America gets poorer, because the USA loses jobs that are gained in other countries.

It has nothing to do with how many visas are given or not, it is about getting unemployed American workers back to work in whatever jobs are available. Your statement trying to link H1B visas to American corporations sending people to other countries just makes no sense, this whole situation has NOTHING to do with people who currently have jobs. Giving training to foreign workers does WHAT for our country, helping other countries do better at our own expense?


The foreign governments
By fishbits on 2/19/2009 11:51:34 AM , Rating: 2
The foreign governments are offering to pay the unemployment, welfare and infrastructure costs of unemployed US citizens, right? No?

Oh, then hiring US citizens should be a priority. Not an absolute mandate, but a definite priority.




RE: The foreign governments
By FoundationII on 2/19/2009 12:27:43 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The foreign governments are offering to pay the unemployment, welfare and infrastructure costs of unemployed US citizens, right? No?


In matter of fact yes, come to belgium, if you live here legally you're entitled to a minimum wage, whether you work or not, if you don't work you get benefits for every public service. Obtaining citizenship is a matter of months nowadays and there are numerous organisations to help you if you're illegal.

Trust me, the US is very strict in it's immigrant policy compared to most European countries.

In my opinion the companies should be able to choose who they hire, based on the competences of the workers.


RE: The foreign governments
By fishbits on 2/19/2009 12:42:33 PM , Rating: 3
"In matter of fact yes, come to belgium..."

I did not say of US citizens living in their countries. If an American citizen does not have a job in America while a foreigner does, will that foreign worker's government pay for Americans who are on welfare or unemployment?

The answer is, "in a matter of fact," no.

"In my opinion the companies should be able to choose who they hire, based on the competences of the workers."

In my opinion, people who are able to work and don't shouldn't be entitled to the tax dollars of those who do. Until this changes, the situation you describe is unsustainable.


Brain Drain
By krytos on 2/19/2009 12:43:11 PM , Rating: 2
I think an issue being overlooked is the brain drain issue. America needs more talent and intelligence in the workforce. I am talking more specifically for R&D in the technology sectors. I am not focusing on manual labor immigrants, but I'm talking about all the Chinese, Indians, Persians, etc. who are brilliant. They are the cream of the crop and come here from their country to learn. I know alot of them personally, and believe me, if they were offered green cards, they would stay, but instead, they take that knowledge back to their home countries and it benefits their home country.

I agree with controlling illegal immigration because it is out of hand for sure, but we shouldn't make it so hard for educated foreigners to get jobs here. That is, if you have a bachelors/masters/phd from the US, you should be allowed to stay and work. You don't have any of those? Then that's a different story.




RE: Brain Drain
By nafhan on 2/19/2009 12:47:56 PM , Rating: 2
I completely agree.
Crack down on illegal immigrants, and open the gates to intelligent hard working people.


RE: Brain Drain
By FITCamaro on 2/19/2009 6:30:10 PM , Rating: 2
What they aren't saying is that there are absolutely no provisions in this to stop illegal aliens from getting jobs created with the stimulus money.


Disappearing jobs
By nafhan on 2/19/2009 12:46:22 PM , Rating: 3
This does nothing positive for the US economy. It sounds great at first glance, but when a large company wants to hire skilled foreign workers, and the foreign workers cannot work in the US due to Visa restrictions. These jobs do not automatically go to US citizens! In a lot of cases, the same foreign worker will get the job, but will work out of Canada or wherever he currently lives (such as India). I remember hearing about MS building an office in Canada just because of Visa problems. Foreign people coming to the US and working means a lot of their money stays in the US instead of going overseas.

I say the more skilled people we can get into the US the better. Highly skilled individuals living and working in the US is good for the economy no matter where they were born. Plus this is basically the principle the US was founded upon...




RE: Disappearing jobs
By sleepeeg3 on 2/19/2009 1:05:12 PM , Rating: 3
Totally agree.


Does this mean...
By sleepeeg3 on 2/19/2009 1:27:10 PM , Rating: 2
…baseball will have to interview American athletes for the job before hiring Domiincan Republicans?




RE: Does this mean...
By sleepeeg3 on 2/19/2009 1:35:50 PM , Rating: 2
***Job Application***
Former Positions Held: Shortstop
Most Recent Employer: Devil Rays
Desired Salary: $100 million for 10 years
Education: 2000-2001: Pete Rose baseball camp
Drug test result: Positive for steroids


Reality
By hohowan on 2/19/2009 5:12:05 PM , Rating: 2
Reality is, American workers cost too much when
compared to other workers. If you disagree, then
you are most likely still in a state of denial.

Justify the US labor costs anyway you want,
but whatever the job is, a similarly skilled
foreigner will usually be cheaper. Deal with it.

BTW, Welcome to the Global Labor Pool!!!!!!
Be happy for a low wage and work!!!!!!!!!!!




RE: Reality
By melgross on 2/19/2009 5:28:36 PM , Rating: 2
I guess you would agree to a 30% wage cut?


By MrJustin5 on 2/19/2009 6:53:02 PM , Rating: 2
The united states has been overthrown by banks and corporations.

Obama is a figurehead and he doesnt run anything.

On and on and on. Reading the comments here, you're all brainwashed.

You're all fooled.

You've all been robbed of your money, your pride, your intellect, your freedom and your future.

I've heard this a thousand times from friends and other people "Illegal immigrants do the jobs americans dont want to do."

That is a HALF TRUTH. Yes, I do NOT want to work under the table at $4 an hour to mop up bathrooms and clean toilets. I do NOT want to work at minimum wage in the sweltering sun to pick produce in a farming field.

HOW THINGS USED TO BE (Before there was 30 to 40 MILLION ILLEGAL immigrants in the united states).

It used to be, if I was a Janitor at a school or office building, I'd be making $20 to $25 an hour . Now its a near minimum wage job and consider that that 20-25/hr was in 70's and 80's money... adjust that for inflation today! Thats good money.

Right now, I'd take that job, working in a field for $20 an hour. Kick all the ILLEGALS out and you'll get PART/HALF of your country and economy back.

Please read www.infowars.com




By raghavny80 on 2/19/2009 8:19:50 PM , Rating: 2
FYI - The article talks about the 'legals' not 'illegals'. The H1B visa holders are legally working in the US.


illigal debate
By TSS on 2/19/2009 8:20:34 PM , Rating: 2
There seems to be alot of debating about illigals going on... but wikipedia says:

quote:
The H-1B is a non-immigrant visa in the United States under the Immigration & Nationality Act, section 101(a)(15)(H). It allows U.S. employers to temporarily employ foreign workers in specialty occupations.


Non-immigrant is the part i'm wondering about. As i see it, "Illigals" is short for "Illigal immigrants "

Basically this restrics company's from finding highly schooled personell from say, india, but not the jobs that illigal immigrants already in the country take.

As i understand it, people who get this visa, which is now harder to get are neither illigal, nor immigrants.

I might be wrong here, but if i'm not, this might actually be bad for the USA. The economic crisis hasn't slowed down the baby boomer's aging process. Low skilled jobs, which illigal immigrants already in the country take, are easyer to fill then highly skilled jobs, who go back after 3 to 6 years, which is what the H1-B visa is for.

So really, this doesn't do anything about illigals. Just keeps people who can actually contribute, out a little bit more.




RE: illigal debate
By TSS on 2/19/2009 8:42:39 PM , Rating: 2
just want to add the following on why that is a very bad idea:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpEnFwiqdx8 from 0:34 to 0:44

sorry for double post but i forgot the absence of the edit button for a second :)


Yeehaa!
By Proteusza on 2/20/2009 6:55:22 AM , Rating: 2
That oughta show them thar varmints good! Yeeha, American jobs for American folk, the way it oughtta be.

Sigh, its a good thing you guys didnt turn away Albert Einstein when he wanted to join your country. You may think this is a good idea, but the brain drain is gonna hurt more than American jobs for Americans helps.




RE: Yeehaa!
By Targon on 2/20/2009 1:00:44 PM , Rating: 2
You clearly misunderstand the feeling that many people have. When there is a question about hiring a US citizen OR someone from another country, a US citizen SHOULD get priority due to the current economic situation. Specialists on the other hand will always be desired, but in an economic crisis, the government SHOULD care more about it's citizens than those who are not citizens.

It is easy for people to be an idealist during good times, but idealism really will only get in the way when times are tough. In business, giving discounts to veterans, children, and the elderly may be a normal business practice, but when the company struggles due to economic problems, those discounts may be the first to go. It is a basic thing, and too many people who are not feeling the economic troubles are running around saying how horrible pro-citizen policies are.

When you are in danger of losing your job, would YOU want increased competition for your job? How about losing your job to someone from another country, or to have your job shipped overseas, leaving you unemployed?

When you are not in danger, it is easy to be brave, but when faced with job loss with no other jobs available, you WILL feel differently about some things.


By ExFreddieMacer on 2/19/2009 12:24:26 PM , Rating: 3
As an ExFreddieMac'er, I can say from experience that companies (like Freddie and Fannie) avoid finding themselves H1B Dependent by extending contracts to H1B workers who are employed by another agency. In this manner, the GSE's don't need to report their dependency on H1B workers. Nearly the entire Change Management department, including deployers, developers and testers, were contracted to Freddie Mac through an external party who was H1B dependent.

It was kind of shocking on my first day to see Indian flags, maps of India, and many/most of the department speaking Hindi. I also know many American acquaintances who would be qualified for these positions. Lastly, I know from personal experience that the H1B workers were paid less on average than the American contractors I worked with (myself included).

This all leads me to believe that companies like Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae contract H1B workers not for their expertise, but rather for the cost savings of 1) Not having employees and the overhead that comes with them, 2) the reduced wages the H1B workers were willing to accept.

The other side effect of this type of activity is that since people are engaged through contracts, most with a 12 month limit on duration, there was a serious lack of accountability pervasive throughout the entire organization. I think we can all now see the consequences.

I ended up leaving Freddie Mac at the end of 2007 because it was so poorly run. Many others did as well.




Yeah, more protectionism!
By sleepeeg3 on 2/19/2009 1:03:17 PM , Rating: 2
Just like the unions, this will make us less competitive, raise the cost of products and cost other American’s jobs. Sickened by the price of Windows now? Wait until this law starts being enforced. Time/money spent to offer the job to an American worker, who wouldn’t do the job in the first place at that price, to offer it to someone in India. That extra cost ends up being passed on as a burden to the rest of America.

If we can’t start becoming competitive with the rest of the world on our own, we will gradually wither into a crooked shadow of our current nation. Companies need to be freely competitive, which will allow them to grow and dominate on a world wide scale, which will create more jobs for more Americans.




Not Visa card (idiots)
By DXRick on 2/19/09, Rating: 0
RE: Not Visa card (idiots)
By 7Enigma on 2/23/2009 2:27:22 PM , Rating: 2
Wow.


Gotta love Liberals
By montgom on 2/19/2009 4:30:13 PM , Rating: 2
Another bit of protectionism and intolerance.




well
By yacoub on 2/19/2009 4:40:00 PM , Rating: 2
"take care of our own" to some extent, yes. but only in a situation where the two workers (one national, one foreigner) are equally qualified.

Otherwise this is just another version of affirmative action. Cost arguments notwithstanding, we should always be hiring the most qualified person to do the job. If they aren't coming from our country, and the job-in-question-being-filled is something desirable to have an American fill, we should be fixing the education system surrounding that field so that in the future we will have Americans available who are equally as qualified as the foreign workers.




By illuvatar81 on 2/19/2009 6:12:08 PM , Rating: 2
If these companies are accepting money from the government for help because they cannot get along without a handout, than the government should be able to outline how they can spend this money.

Why not make stimulus paychecks available to americans, how does stimulus cash help americans if non-americans are being hired with stimulus cash?




By rudy on 2/19/2009 9:10:46 PM , Rating: 2
I really don't have any problem if US companies hire foreign talent. They should in fact. The US is a world powerhouse because we are open to people from all cultural back grounds it has a huge effect on us. We can use our money to lure the most talented scientists, and other workers from anywhere in the world here. I however do think they should have to pay them the same wage as an American workers so that if the American is just as good they will take an American.

Illegal immigration really has nothing to do with this. Illegal immigrants don't care nor do the people who hire them about the laws and legislation. Enforcement should be propped up because illegal immigration is how the people we don't want in this country get here. Also as a person who has had personal experience with the immigration process it is unfair for someone to basically cut the line in front of legal immigrants not have to be screened and pay all the various fees to get in. And it always makes me feel like why waste time doing things the right way when you can do it the easy illegal way and no one is going to kick you out, you can get benifits which freaking legal immigrants cant get. I mean WTF talk about a broken system, rewarded for breaking the law punished for following it.




Good
By vectrav2 on 2/19/2009 11:15:57 PM , Rating: 2
Hiring US workers in the US must be mandatory.
I think that all companies that hire foreign workers here should have to pay a surcharge making the foreign worker more expensive than a US worker.
138,000 foreigners are hired here legally each month...even now.
I am delighted this makes it more difficult to hire foreign workers.




Good
By SiliconAddict on 2/20/2009 12:16:37 AM , Rating: 2
You want the money use American workers. Period.




Hello Everyone...
By eek2121 on 2/20/2009 12:24:51 AM , Rating: 2
Regardless of what everyone thinks...and there are MANY different opinions on this board...The fact is that each H1B visa worker that is hired represents 1 less american that is hired to do the same job.

Regardless of qualifications, if all workers one day come from another country, where does our income come from? This is the very problem with our economy. Large portions of our labor pool are taken up by 'undocumented' immigrants and H1B visa workers. This money leaves the country, never to return.

What about those millions of outsourced call center/tech support jobs? Do you guys HONESTLY think money comes from thin air? Look at the economy today, do you have any clue why events have transpired the way that they have?

If i make 90k/year as a software programmer in the US, I usually spend around 50-60k/year after taxes IN the US. I may buy stuff from walmart, mcdonalds, wherever else have you. While these companies may sell goods that originated in china, they are still primarily US companies, and the money tends to stay in the US. HOWEVER if an H1B visa worker is hired at 40-50k to do my job, right away the UShas lost out on tax revenue. In addition, that worker tends to pool money to send back home. This money LEAVES the US and is spent in foreign countries. This is why our economy is suffering more then most. Should i be paid 80-90k? That's the subject of another debate entirely.

Let me ask you this: What would happen tomorrow if everyone in the United States stopped spending money because they were unemployed? Do you honestly think that only the US would be affected?




By crystal clear on 2/20/2009 7:36:01 AM , Rating: 2
Throwing money at the problem does not solve the problem,rather innovation,smart stratergies,investments,etc does & will lead the USA to the road of economic recovery.

An example for the above-

We're investing in America to keep Intel and our nation at the forefront of innovation," Otellini said.

Thats the attitude companies should have with special reference to IBM,Microsoft,Apple,Google,Cisco etc etc who are relatively financially stable companies.

The smart stratergies for example should be-

Intel's investment will be made at existing manufacturing sites in Oregon, Arizona and New Mexico and will support approximately 7,000 high-wage, high-skill jobs at those locations -- part of a total Intel workforce of more than 45,000 in the U.S. Intel,
while generating more than 75 percent of its sales overseas, carries out roughly 75 percent of its semiconductor manufacturing in the U.S.
At the same time, about 75 percent of the company's R&D spending and capital investments are also made in the U.S.

http://www.intel.com/pressroom/archive/releases/20...

Misuse of H1-B visas is rampant amongst US comapnies to cut cost for paying themselves huge salaries.bonuses,perks, etc to CEOs,VPs,chairmen, etc at the highest level in the management structore.

Their GREED has NO limits & nobody can stop it.

Fraudsters of the likes of MADOFF,Allen STANFORD..(he has SIR before his name) have been able to freely operate in the USA for years even under the close scrutiny of the SEC & other regulatory bodies etc.

Just how many more of these fraudsters/scams are still awaiting to be exposed.

Read this-

Crisis-hit UBS settled late on Wednesday U.S. criminal charges that it had helped rich Americans to dodge taxes.

UBS agreed on Wednesday to pay a fine of $780 million and to disclose about 250 names of U.S. clients it said had committed tax fraud.

U.S. tax authorities said on Thursday they were still pursuing a civil lawsuit seeking to access the data of 52,000 American clients of UBS in what is known as a John Doe summons.

But U.S. tax authorities now wants thousands more names of citizens it says are hiding about $14.8 billion in assets in secret bank accounts.

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssInvestmentServi...

Back to the issue of innovation-

If Intel can do 75% of its manufacruring & R&D in the USA & can still compete in price & performance & generate huge profits,then other comapnies can also do the same.

The Intel way -

while generating more than 75 percent of its sales overseas, carries out roughly 75 percent of its semiconductor manufacturing in the U.S.

could be the start of an economic recovery if other companies also follow this strtergy.

Made in China must be replaced by "Made in the USA" !

So its how the Obama administration uses this $787B effectively & smartly to bring about the economic recovery.




America First
By techman9282 on 2/20/2009 10:49:50 AM , Rating: 2
Come on, we've got to hire Americans first, period. You think that if you went to Mexico, or India, or China you would get special treatment (i.e. Visa) to work, forget it. This nonsense about "Americans won't take the jobs illegals do" is ridiculous, they would if they were paid at least the legal minimum wage, HELLO, there are lots of Americans working at min. wage jobs everywhere already, wake up. The whole pro-illegal mindset of most Americans implicitly assumes that, well, "America can't exist as we know it unless we have a whole class of millions of foreigners working w/o benefits at illegal, sub-minimum, wages". I don't think so, that's bull***, I can pay 5 cents more for a coffee, or a buck more for my restaurant tab. Think about it.




By tallcool1 on 2/19/2009 12:38:43 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
one overlooked section of the bill
More like NOT GIVEN TIME TO LOOK AT IT! Nancy P had to get that thing pushed through ASAP, forget about the fact that its almost a trillion dollars that WE ALL have to pay for and over 1000 pages, she needed to make sure she wasn't late for her trip to Europe. Screw the US, I got a European trip to make!




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