backtop


Print 54 comment(s) - last by GlobleWarmingi.. on Jul 14 at 7:04 PM


Natural gas could become the new ethanol -- the alternative fuel of choice -- if a new bill passes. Like ethanol engines, gas-natural gas dual mode engines suffer a performance loss of as much as 15 percent.  (Source: Treehugger.com)

The U.S. has among the world's most abundant natural gas deposits (regions with highest levels shown in brown).  (Source: Wikimedia Commons)
A variety of vehicle weight classes are covered by new natural gas bill

A new bill, NAT GAS (New Alternative Transportation to Give Americans Solutions), has been proposed by U.S. Senators Robert Menendez (D-NJ), Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV),and Senator Orrin Hatch (R-UT) which looks to push natural gas vehicles into the consumer mainstream.  The proposal looks to offer a bevy of natural gas vehicle purchasing, refueling and manufacturing tax credits which would eclipse even current credits for electric vehicles.

People purchasing a light vehicle capable of running on natural gas would get a $12,500 tax credit, significantly more than the $7,500 credit offered for plug-in vehicles.  Current tax credits for three other weight classes would double, up to a maximum of $80,000 for the largest vehicle class.

Bi-fuel (gas and natural gas) vehicles would also be eligible for a 50 percent incremental cost tax credit -- this means that 50 percent of the costs that companies assume from increasing production would be offset by tax credits.  The bill would also make it 100 percent tax deductible (with some limitations) to build a facility which builds natural gas vehicles.  The bill would also offer refueling stations up to $100,000 to provide natural gas vehicle refilling pumps.

The new bill was masterminded and heavily praised by oil and natural gas baron T. Boone Pickens.  Mr. Pickens had made headlines last year, announcing a massive wind power project.  Just last week, he essentially pulled the plug on the project, and called natural gas the "only option" for the U.S.

With his heavy natural gas holdings Mr. Pickens stands to make a small fortune if the bill should pass.  Indeed, the natural gas industry as a whole would see a huge boost from the bill.

Natural gas vehicles run on methane, the primary component of natural gas.  Methane engines run approximately as efficiently as gasoline/petrol engines, but are less efficient than diesel engines.  Dual-mode engines suffer a 10 to 15 percent efficiency loss over gas-only engines, due to the higher octane number of 120-130.



Comments     Threshold


This article is over a month old, voting and posting comments is disabled

ridiculous
By omnicronx on 7/13/2009 5:10:57 PM , Rating: 1
Heres a thought, PICK ONE ENERGY SOURCE and stick to it, spending time and money on different energy sources is a waste of time and should be left up to the private sector should they wish to pursue it.

I understand why using natural gas could be a good idea, but I think the cons far outweigh the pros. The thought of being able to fillup at your house (if you have natural gas) is a great idea, but the cost of the infrastructure needed and the problems surrounding the use of natural gas in the first place does not make this feasible. Furthermore this will do nothing but increase the cost of natural gas prices, so you will pay more for your heating not to mention there is still a foreign dependence involved here.

Personally I think this money should be put into electric vehicles, it is the only way to get away from foreign dependence which should be the point of using an alternative fuel in the first place.

I would also like to point out that current storage methods would not allow an oddly shaped gas tank like in current vehicles, my guess is that it would need to be a cylinder, which is not exactly space saving. I've seen a few of these cars and every single one had their tank in the trunk.




RE: ridiculous
By bobsmith1492 on 7/13/2009 5:53:17 PM , Rating: 5
No, picking one [fuel] source and sticking with it is NOT a good idea. The politicians would make a poor choice like ethanol and everyone would be stuck with it.


RE: ridiculous
By monstrosity on 7/14/2009 11:31:56 AM , Rating: 2
Agreed, I don't see much of a problem if the government mandates gas stations to provide additional fuel sources, such as natural gas, and or ethanol, etc. However I do see a problem when they mandate that we don't get a choice and have to use one over another. Having a choice or options is a good thing.


RE: ridiculous
By Spuke on 7/14/2009 1:06:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Agreed, I don't see much of a problem if the government mandates gas stations
They're not mandating gas stations have NG pumps, they're offering $100k tax credit to those that want to installed NG fuel pumps.


RE: ridiculous
By rrburton on 7/14/2009 12:33:40 PM , Rating: 2
Or Petroleum?


RE: ridiculous
By Ananke on 7/13/2009 6:06:49 PM , Rating: 2
I am coming from a small European country, where around 2/3 of all the cars are running on propain/methane. Convertors cost several hundred dollars and bottle of the size of spare tire is used. This solution is essentially twise more economical than gas.

Natural gas, on the other hand, is not kept under extreme pressure, i.e infrastructure builds would be inexpensive. It doesn't require refining, like the oil does. 1000 q.feet, i.e. 230 gallons of nat gas cost around 8 dollars ....:)...It seems I will be very happy to have a car on natural gas.


RE: ridiculous
By Keeir on 7/13/2009 7:27:27 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
1000 q.feet, i.e. 230 gallons of nat gas cost around 8 dollars ....:)...It seems I will be very happy to have a car on natural gas.


Thats a good question.

Current US Natural Gas Prices
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/dnav/ng/ng_pri_sum_dcu_nu...

At best, we can hope for "Commerical" pricing around 10 dollars per 1000 cubic feet.

1 cubic feet have roughly 1,028 BTUs. However, when used in an ICE engine application, its more like ~950 BTUs.

A gallon of gasoline containes around 125,000 BTU.

In the US there is roughly a 47 cents per gallon tax on gasoline... which works out to roughly 2.05 dollars per gallon.

http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.as...

Natural Gas would then get around 95,000 BTUs per Dollar and Gasoline would be 61,000 BTUs per Dollar. Which is another way of saying that currently Natural Gas is equivalent to ~1.80 gasoline (remember, the government will still need to collect taxes on the Natural Gas, so although the untaxed natural gas is equivalent to ~1.30 a gallon gas)

However, my problem with doing this is #1. Natural gas is very expensive to design engines for... #2. Natural gas when used in a CC, the same 1 cubic feet could produce more than .15 kWh of electricity. So... 1 cubic feet used in a Prius (50 miles per 125,000 BTU) results in .38 miles versus 1 cubic feet used in a Volt (40 miles per 8 kWh) is... .75 miles (more like ~.60 after losses due to transmission, charging, etc).

Either way, its much more effective pollution, usage, and eventually price wise to generate electrical power for the gas and use the electrical power to drive the cars... even if NG is more effective than gasoline.


RE: ridiculous
By knutjb on 7/13/2009 10:34:49 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
However, my problem with doing this is #1. Natural gas is very expensive to design engines for...

That is total BS. To take the most of natural gas the engine should have a higher compression ratio than a gasoline engine to take advantage of the 120 plus octane rating, to offset the fuels lower BTU rating. Diesels take a little more work but are built to run effectively on it too.

There is one unusual thing, oil is mixed with an abrasive and is squirted into the cylinder to help seat the piston rings because it burns at a lower temp and does not wash oil off the cylinder walls like gas. Fact engines running on natural gas will out last the vehicles they are in.

Any place that has natural gas can set up a gas station, usually off the existing pressure in the line 3500 psi plus requires little infrastructure, plumbing, dispensing units, etc. If the pressure is below there are compressors based on a V8 engine one bank a conventional 4 banger and the other 4 cyls are the compressor. The electrical grid theoretically has the capacity but in many areas, mostly rural or brown out prone cities (CA), don't have sufficient power grid capacity for a radical transition to electric cars. Why do you think plug in hybrids are taking so long to implement? It's not the cars.

The biggest reason to convert should be that the US has the worlds largest natural gas reserves so no money sent off shore. That combined with the simplest fuel conversion from gasoline compared to any other fuel option buying time to come up with practical alternatives that, today, are only available in vaporware.

Do some home work, natural gas vehicles have been around in the industrial market for for over 50 years.


RE: ridiculous
By Spuke on 7/14/2009 1:10:03 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Do some home work, natural gas vehicles have been around in the industrial market for for over 50 years.
I guess you didn't see the links. And you never stated why his info was BS.


RE: ridiculous
By Keeir on 7/14/2009 4:12:42 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
That is total BS.


Sure... thats why Natural Gas engines in cars need a tax credit of 12+ dollars.

That's why the Civic NGV is about 8,000 more expensive than the gasoline one.

I guess I should have been more clear. NGV are very expensive.

quote:
The electrical grid theoretically has the capacity but in many areas, mostly rural or brown out prone cities (CA), don't have sufficient power grid capacity for a radical transition to electric cars. Why do you think plug in hybrids are taking so long to implement? It's not the cars.


Ahhh... well it sounds like California needs to upgrade its power just to make current load. Since they are updating anyway, why not go really high and use very efficient CC plants to burn Natural gas for cars when they need it? Overall, it will be much more efficient that pumping the Natural Gas to a station and dispensing it to the car.


RE: ridiculous
By StevoLincolnite on 7/14/2009 1:03:08 AM , Rating: 2
LPG/Natural Gas works fine in a normal Petrol engine, heck you can even get Injected LPG Gas these days.

The way my Car works with LPG Gas is you have a "Mixer" which is connected to the Air intake pipe, which mixes the LPG and air together which is then sent to the cylinder for ignition, where-as if I switched over to Petrol, it's injected.

The Problem with LPG that I found is that it's a very "Laggy" fuel, and because I have lead weights strapped to my shoes, I end up with a tendency to bend push rods often. (Thankfully I do my own mechanical repair work!).

Plus, it's also a cleaner burning fuel.

And... in real-world driving the economy isn't that much inferior to Petrol.


RE: ridiculous
By LordanSS on 7/14/2009 1:30:12 AM , Rating: 2
Natural Gas is very popular here in Brazil, as far as car fuel options go.

Some brands, like Fiat, sell "Tetra Fuel" cars that can use natural gas, pure gasoline, ethanol or the gasoline we have here in Brazil which contains 20% ethanol in it's formula.

At least for us, it's very economic... as it's well know, due to taxes, our gasoline prices are astronomical, but when it comes to natural gas, the price is pretty good. You can easily drive over 100Km while spending less that $5 on fuel.

I believe it's a wise decision, to diversify on fuel alternatives. That way, if something goes bad with one of the sources, you have other choices available.


RE: ridiculous
By Sdaas on 7/14/2009 10:19:22 AM , Rating: 2
I thought Brazil used Sugar Cane Biodiesel.


RE: ridiculous
By Solandri on 7/13/2009 10:17:19 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I am coming from a small European country, where around 2/3 of all the cars are running on propain/methane. Convertors cost several hundred dollars and bottle of the size of spare tire is used. This solution is essentially twise more economical than gas.

Natural gas, on the other hand, is not kept under extreme pressure, i.e infrastructure builds would be inexpensive. It doesn't require refining, like the oil does. 1000 q.feet, i.e. 230 gallons of nat gas cost around 8 dollars ....:)...It seems I will be very happy to have a car on natural gas.

Propane and natural gas are very different for transportation applications.

Propane liquefies at room temperature at about 12 atmospheres. You don't need a very strong tank to contain it. The pressure is low enough that you can just use a simple pump to fill it, and a simple valve to release it. In its liquid state, it has an energy density about equivalent to gasoline.

Methane (natural gas) is very different. In household applications where a supplier is constantly pumping you more, it doesn't need to be pressurized. But at atmospheric pressure, it only has about 1/800th the energy content of gasoline by volune.. That is, 1 gallon of natural gas at normal atmospheric pressure has as much energy as 1 teaspoon of gasoline.. Methane is completely impractical as a transportation fuel unless you compress it.

Compressed natural gas does not liquefy, and is typically stored at around 200 atmospheres of pressure (meaning it still takes about 4x the volume of an equivalent amount of gasoline by energy content). You need a much stronger and more massive tank to hold it, as well as a stronger pump and more robust valve to fill and empty the tank in a controlled manner.

Because of this, methane works well for large vehicles, vehicles which don't need to haul luggage, and vehicles which share the same pump and maintenance personnel. City buses and taxicabs (which mostly move people with little or no luggage) are good applications. But it's highly impractical for a personal vehicle. The tank typically fills almost the entire trunk. The CNG Civic only has enough trunk space to fit a few bags of groceries. The rest of the trunk is taken up by the CNG tank.


RE: ridiculous
By tjr508 on 7/13/2009 10:47:36 PM , Rating: 2
WE have zero foreign dependence on natural gas and nearly 100% foreign dependence on materials needed to run nuclear plants and make effective batteries.
The only time we import NG is when small gas-rich countries like Qatar dump LNG on our market for pennies on the dollar to what we can produce it for (I don't see how the consumer can complain here). There may be some other misc. imports, but they are for logistic purposes only (kind of like the US exporting oil).
Finally, NG is at what? $3.50 and we are still meeting current demand. At $8 (still very cheap) energy companies start to go after the less permeable formations boosting our reserves by another 60 years or better.


Fortune?
By shazbotron on 7/13/2009 4:44:33 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
With his heavy natural gas holdings Mr. Pickens stands to make a small fortune if the bill should pass.


I wonder if a portion of Mr. Pickens' (soon to be realized) small fortune was used on lobbyists to help Senators Menendez, Hatch and Reid see his point of view.




RE: Fortune?
By rcc on 7/13/2009 6:38:17 PM , Rating: 5
Isn't that a little bit like asking if water is wet?


RE: Fortune?
By Cypherdude1 on 7/13/2009 10:36:08 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Mr. Pickens had made headlines last year, announcing a massive wind power project. Just last week, he essentially pulled the plug on the project

What this story really proves, in my opinion, is that if Mr. Pickens had really wanted to, he could've lobbied his, in my opinion, rich fatcat senate buddies to pay for all the transmission lines he needed to carry power from his wind power project to the rest of the country. Instead, he, in my opinion, used his contacts in the senate to help him make more money selling natural gas, effectively having the government subsidize his vehicle purchases.


RE: Fortune?
By 67STANG on 7/13/2009 6:39:09 PM , Rating: 3
Don't be silly. They just finally realized that natural gas is "our only option".

Although I've got to say, if there were no special interests attached to this, I'd support it all the way. How cool would tailgate parties be? I've got the first product to push for the ghost of Billy Mays.

"Hi, Billy Mays here with The BBQ Bedliner. It's the mighty grill that hooks up the your natural gas tank and puts down the sizzle, for shizzle. Just $29.99, but if you call now, we'll double the offer..."


RE: Fortune?
By scaliguri on 7/13/2009 7:19:35 PM , Rating: 2
That product already exists: www.freedomgrill.com. Good thoguht though!


RE: Fortune?
By 67STANG on 7/13/2009 7:28:28 PM , Rating: 2
Damn it.


RE: Fortune?
By grandpope on 7/13/2009 7:31:43 PM , Rating: 2
I think that he was saying it would get natural gas from the vehicle's tank directly, not just attach to the tow hitch.


RE: Fortune?
By Jimbo1234 on 7/13/2009 9:59:54 PM , Rating: 2
I've been supplying natural gas at tailgates for years. It's that I only chose to light it once - nice blue flame. Luckily I didn't even burn my pants.


RE: Fortune?
By satinspiral on 7/14/2009 12:54:57 AM , Rating: 2
"Just pay shipping snd processing!"---->read: pipelines, tanker trucks, auto-plants, vehicle purchases, etc etc etc


Subsidies once again
By Wierdo on 7/13/09, Rating: 0
RE: Subsidies once again
By corduroygt on 7/13/2009 5:04:44 PM , Rating: 5
You recall wrong. Gasoline is not subsidized in the US, it's actually taxed quite a lot compared to other stuff you buy which is only subject to sales tax. It's subsizdized in india and china IIRC, or at least it used to be last summer.


RE: Subsidies once again
By drmo on 7/13/2009 5:13:46 PM , Rating: 2
The study that the OP refers to is based on the "hidden costs" and social factors such as pollution and congestion, as well as costs for roads, etc. http://www.progress.org/cobb01.htm
It is an older report I think. Many of these costs would be still present no matter what type of vehicle you drive, though pollution would be less for natural gas perhaps.

I do remember hearing that there were some subsidies to oil/gas companies, but not directly on fuel, which is taxed in the US, though not as much as in Europe. Talking of fuel subsidies, Venezuela charges a few cents for gasoline. ( http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/global_gasp... )


RE: Subsidies once again
By clovell on 7/13/2009 5:56:43 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, folks should think about that the next time they decide to fill up at Citgo.


RE: Subsidies once again
By FITCamaro on 7/14/2009 9:30:55 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah I refuse to buy gas at a Citgo.


RE: Subsidies once again
By Spuke on 7/14/2009 3:24:13 PM , Rating: 2
What's up with Citgo?


RE: Subsidies once again
By clovell on 7/14/2009 4:41:00 PM , Rating: 2
Citgo gets its oil primarily from Venezuela. It usually costs more to refine because it's low-quality. I don't like Chavez, so I don't support him by filling up at Citgo.


RE: Subsidies once again
By Wierdo on 7/14/2009 8:07:06 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know, there's allot of stuff to read through when doing a little search online, it can't be all lies. I did a quick google search for some articles on this, and came up with these:

http://www.progress.org/gasoline.htm

"Such external costs push the true price of gasoline as high as $15.14 a gallon, according to a new report released by the International Centre for Technology Assessment...

These external costs total up to $1.69 trillion per year, according to the report...

Artificial, anti-free-market subsidies don't end at the federal level, as the group said most state income taxes are in turn based on oil firms' lower federal tax bills, which result in companies paying $123 million to $323 million less in state taxes...

In addition to tax breaks, the federal government provides up to $114.6 billion to the wealthy industry in giveaways and subsidies annually that support the extraction, production and use of petroleum, such as research and development and export financing.
"

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/07/03/price-of-...

"actual subsidies to Big Oil are between $78 to $158 billion (again, with a 'b') per year."

http://www.triplepundit.com/pages/us-oil-subsidie....

"Over $400 million of overseas refinery taxes are subsidized by federal taxes...

Oil companies may be eligible for a 15 percent tax credit for recovering the costs of recovering domestic oil if they use "enhanced oil recovery" methods...

Tax code provisions allow integrated oil and gas companies to deduct 70 percent of their intangible drilling costs, and deduct the other 30 percent over five years...

Certain oil, gas and uranium producers are eligible for a subsidy under the tax code. Oil companies can deduct 15 percent from their drilling costs, but some independent oil companies can deduct 100 percent."

Other similar hits:

http://cleantech.com/news/node/554
http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/vehicle_impac...

Do you think there's something wrong with these claims or figures?


RE: Subsidies once again
By drmo on 7/14/2009 10:04:50 AM , Rating: 2
I don't know about the others, but I wasn't suggesting these were lies; you just have to read carefully (read the Cobb report link on the progess.org/gasoline.htm site. ) The $15 number comes from many factors that will be true as long as we still use any cars: road repairs, social factors, congestion... There are definitely subsidies for "oil companies" but not directly on "gasoline." There is a difference. Based on direct subsidies to oil companies from your links ($158 billion) and information from here:
http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/ask/crudeoil_faqs.asp it amounts to about $1.00 subsidies per gallon of gasoline. That is assuming that all of the subsidies to oil companies (and all of the oil barrels) are going to produce gasoline, which is untrue, because oil is used for many other things, including plastics, etc. I admit that I don't know enough to do a detailed analysis of the so-called gasoline subsidies, but the truth is, many corporations get tax breaks and subsidies, including the many other alternative energies. Therefore, the numbers would only make sense if we compare the subsidies for gasoline production to the production of natural gas, versus ethanol, versus solar...


So....
By FITCamaro on 7/13/2009 5:16:46 PM , Rating: 2
If I get a supercharger or twin turbo kit for the GTO with methanol injection, can I get the tax credit? :)

I promise to run the methanol all the time....




RE: So....
By Regs on 7/13/2009 5:31:42 PM , Rating: 2
After your 3rd or 4th speeding violation?


RE: So....
By 67STANG on 7/13/2009 6:23:15 PM , Rating: 3
Careful FIT, you wouldn't want to blow the GTO up. Might be hard to find parts for a Pontiac soon, if you know what I mean?


RE: So....
By Motoman on 7/13/2009 7:28:52 PM , Rating: 2
...it's a Holden. Which begs the question...is anything happening with Holden?

...which reminds me that I'd rather like to have a Holden Monaro...on methanol.


RE: So....
By StevoLincolnite on 7/14/2009 12:55:47 AM , Rating: 2
I have a Holden Commodore VX SS on LPG gas, Can't complain for under 58 Cents a Liter, I have a 75 Liter Tank, and I can do about 750km's on a single tank highway driving, and considering it usually costs me about $35 to fill it up. (You can never fully fill an LPG gas tank up) - It's a bargain compared to petrol.

Also the benefits on the "Greeny" side of things are (Taken directly from the almighty wikipedia):

quote:
LPG is a low carbon emitting hydrocarbon fuel available in rural areas, emitting 19 percent less CO2 per kWh than oil, 30 percent less than coal and more than 50 percent less than coal-generated electricity distributed via the grid. Being a mix of propane and butane, LPG emits more carbon per joule than propane and LPG emits less carbon per joule than butane.


I run my car only on LPG, I refuse to use Petrol because of the insane costs attributed to it.

The other interesting thing is that the Australian Government had a rebate-kind-of-system in place for some time now to get LPG gas conversion where they pay 2 grand off the price.

That was fine and dandy and all.
Before they brought in the Rebates an LPG gas conversion it ended up costing me $1850, now with the rebate the price jumped to a total of $2900 (As I found out when I got the second car converted) so in the end the price jumped because the government was paying a large sum for it, not that I am complaining, I still came out ahead, but it's interesting to see how companies will jump on it and get every single cent they can.

Australia is in a different position with it's LPG fuel supply than America, most Service stations have it available, it's cheap and it's been at a more stable price than Petrol or Diesel in the past here.


RE: So....
By 67STANG on 7/14/2009 4:43:07 AM , Rating: 2
I stand corrected. He'll be able to find them easily then-- provided he'll pay the shipping from Australia... ;-)

Looks like they cut into 30% of Holden's production:
http://www.manmonthly.com.au/Article/GM-to-kill-Po...

If we're picking from Australia, I'd rather have the Ford Falcon XR. Better built.


RE: So....
By FITCamaro on 7/13/2009 11:04:26 PM , Rating: 2
You know how easy it is to find LS2 parts? Now affording them is another matter.


RE: So....
By FITCamaro on 7/13/2009 11:05:45 PM , Rating: 2
Oh and you can easily bolt on 120-150 whp with a maggie or a TT kit on the stock bottom end.


Arizona fiasco
By wookie1 on 7/13/2009 8:46:52 PM , Rating: 2
We had an alt-fuel subsidy in AZ in the '90's, where people would get big tax credits to buy natural gas or dual fuel vehicles. It was about to bankrupt the state, the plug was pulled, and the politicians involved had to find other careers. The dual fuel provision is the big killer. People get this to qualify for the tax break, but then only use gasoline as there are extremely few places to fill up with natural gas. (Maybe it was propane also, I can't recall, but either way there were almost no fueling stations).




RE: Arizona fiasco
By klstay on 7/14/2009 9:09:35 AM , Rating: 2
Unlike in the short lived fiasco in AZ, I instead got a reasonable state tax credit for each of the 3 natural gas vehicle I purchased about three years ago. (One for myself, one for my son, and one for my father.) I pay $.97/gallon for fuel. These vehicles all have practically zero emissions. The fuel is 100% domestic. The engines are almost identical to the regular gas only models.

Basically, who cares if ole T. Bone gets rich off this? Transitioning 1/4 of the private vehicles and 1/3 of fleet vehicles to natural gas would be a HUGE win for all parties concerned.


RE: Arizona fiasco
By wookie1 on 7/14/2009 11:54:21 AM , Rating: 2
Well, it's not even close to zero carbon emmissions, but I agree that as far as harmful emissions natgas is a nice fuel. If the engine were designed for natgas only and not gasoline, you could really raise the compression ratio and/or add a turbo and get efficiency closer to a diesel. Keeping the CR low enough for gasoline wastes the potential of the fuel.

I don't see why we would want to give government subsidies to T.B.P to swindle us, he should have to do that with his own money.


Civic GX for super cheap?
By Pneumothorax on 7/14/2009 9:05:13 AM , Rating: 2
"People purchasing a light vehicle capable of running on natural gas would get a $12,500 tax credit"

Does the full amount apply towards the Civic GX that goes for about $25K? IF so, that makes the GX an almost tempting option. It's limited range, anemic 113hp motor (heck even the $15K stripped out civic has 140hp), and decontenting (yes it only has 2 speakers lol) still make it an ok deal at half price.




RE: Civic GX for super cheap?
By Spuke on 7/14/2009 3:52:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Does the full amount apply towards the Civic GX that goes for about $25K?
It's a tax credit not cash.


RE: Civic GX for super cheap?
By Pneumothorax on 7/14/2009 5:41:45 PM , Rating: 2
So basically only rich people or people who don't have much a deduction already on their taxes will get the full benefit, right?


Pickens
By CalWorthing on 7/13/2009 4:51:28 PM , Rating: 4
An exemplar for manipulating the media, opportunism, greed, and all the other 'good things' making American a two-class nation. BTW, his windmill scheme also involved controlling water rights......

http://earth2tech.com/2008/06/20/t-boone-pickens-t...




Forgot to mention
By wookie1 on 7/13/2009 8:49:24 PM , Rating: 2
I forgot to mention that you would get a special "Environment" licence plate if you participated, and there was no limit on the cost of the vehicle. There were Hummers and other expensive vehicles all over the place with the special license plate, which apparently caused quite a bit of frustration.




Not really new
By Eri Hyva on 7/14/2009 12:01:19 AM , Rating: 2
In Sweden there are plenty of cars running with natural gas, for example

http://www.volvoclub.org.uk/volvo_workshop-bifuel....

Volvo bi-fuel.

Here in Finland we have Mercedes-Benz natural gas public transport buses.




Concerns
By Starcub on 7/14/2009 4:54:07 PM , Rating: 2
I have a couple concerns about what the govt is proposing.

DT commentators in the past have brought up the point that government should not be in the business of determining what technologies become successfull in the marketplace. Usually, the complaints against subsidies are anti-free market rhetoric designed to promote the favored options of the promoter. However, the goal of subsidies should be to assist technologies as best practice alternatives. There sould be objective criteria by which to judge alternatives that address the issues at hand: environmental, health, economic, etc...

Natural gas is a much more potent form of greenhouse gas than CO2, what kind of analysis has been done to assure that promoting natural gas as an autofuel won't significantly increase global warming in comparison to other alternative technologies? Methane is about 20 times as potent a greenhouse gas as CO2, so the entire chain from extraction to emmission would seem to warrant investigation. All I've read about is CO2 comparisons; but natural gas is not widely used currently. Using it as an autofuel would change things.




Car Enthusiasts
By GlobleWarmingisbunk on 7/14/2009 7:04:00 PM , Rating: 2
ICE+Manual Transmission= Happiness
Electric motor+No Transmission = Boring

As long as I get a manual Transmission and a ICE I don't care the fuel. Electric vehicles are not a "turn-on"; so this is a step in the right direction. At least for us Car Enthusiasts.




Nice
By Zingam on 7/14/2009 2:00:50 AM , Rating: 1
Natural gas vehicles - a lots around here, when they crash they explode like H-bombs and the people inside burn like torches... no chance... nice! ...BTW they run like shit!

I'm starting to think that Obama is real dick... but I don't care I am not an US citizen... You problem guys!

Good luck!




My natural gas...
By HeavyB on 7/13/09, Rating: 0
"You can bet that Sony built a long-term business plan about being successful in Japan and that business plan is crumbling." -- Peter Moore, 24 hours before his Microsoft resignation














botimage
Copyright 2014 DailyTech LLC. - RSS Feed | Advertise | About Us | Ethics | FAQ | Terms, Conditions & Privacy Information | Kristopher Kubicki