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Brick and mortar retailers like Best Buy would be none too sad to see their online adversaries like eBay and Amazon go out of business. With new legislation that would allow the takedowns of online auction items without proof of wrongdoing, they might just get their wish.  (Source: Kotaku.com)
New bills target selling of stolen goods online, but will they damage legitimate sales as well?

Many businesses have jumped online, selling their products through such venues as eBay or Amazon.com.  Sellers revel in the sites’ freedom, flexibility, and general lack of hassles.  However, criminals around the world, both petty and organized, are increasingly turning to these online venues as a means to sell stolen goods.

Congress, ostensibly seeking to solve this problem, has reintroduced a set of bills which would place new restrictions on online sales.  In 2008, the legislation was first proposed, but quickly dismissed as a laughable attack by brick-and-mortar retailers on their online adversaries.

Proponents insist this is not the case and that the laws are merely helping fight crime.  Under the new laws, retailers could order takedowns of goods on eBay or Amazon.com if they think that they might be stolen, without the need for proof.  Some retailers, such as Louis Vuitton have already tried to do this.

Furthermore, the new legislation would require sellers of certain goods to keep logs of their sales for up to three years and be subject to increased scrutiny.  All three bills were introduced February 25.  They are the Combating Organized Retail Crime Act of 2009, sponsored by Sen. Dick Durbin (D) of Illinois, the Organized Retail Crime Act of 2009, sponsored by Rep. Brad Ellsworth (D) of Indiana, and the E-fencing Enforcement Act of 2009, sponsored by Rep. Robert Scott (D) of Virginia.

The bills would force increased investigations by both online and offline marketplaces of elicit sales.  They would also require online retailers to place new disclosures on their online marketplaces.  And more importantly, they would require online sellers to record more information, purportedly to fight the fencing of stolen goods online.

Sen. Durbin states, "In the midst of the deepening economic crisis, organized retail crime seems to be flourishing.  Organized theft affects struggling retailers' bottom lines at a time when they can afford it least and the resale of these stolen goods puts consumers at tremendous risk of buying tainted or outdated products. Our bill takes immediate steps to combat these crimes by making it easier to identify and prosecute offenders and strengthening the penalties for those engaging in such crimes."

The NRF (National Retail Federation), an organization that represents the interests of brick and mortar retailers, supported the legislation.  NRF Vice President for Loss Prevention Joseph LaRocca states, "Retailers already struggling to survive are seeing their inventory disappear in increasing amounts, and the goods end up at flea markets or on the Internet at prices that put temptation into the path of cash-strapped consumers trying to stretch every dollar.  Losses from these crimes ultimately drive up the price of legitimate merchandise at a time when consumers can least afford it and do serious damage to our nation's already weakened economy."

Under the new legislation, the brick and mortar retailers would score a major coup in that they could order eBay.com, Overstock.com, and Amazon.com to remove numerous goods without any proof.  Under the proposed laws, failure by the online retailers to "expeditiously investigate" and remove the items would result in criminal penalties.

The CCIA (Computer & Communications Industry Association) is among those blasting the legislation.  Its President and CEO Ed Black writes, "We are very concerned that these bills separate out e-commerce and online marketplaces for discriminatory treatment.  The bills undermine user privacy, and threaten to erode crucial ISP immunities that are critical to innovation and growth on the Internet. At a time of financial duress and economic contraction, the last thing we should be doing is attacking innovative e-commerce services that contribute to economic growth."

Edward Torpoco, eBay's senior regulatory counsel also spit fire about the new law.  He adds, "Big retailers like the Internet, but they don't like Internet-based competition from small sellers who drive down prices and give consumers more choices. One way to attack pesky secondary market competitors is to suggest that there is something shady about them."

Adds another eBay spokesperson continues, "These bills are blatantly discriminatory against online business models. Selling stolen goods anywhere, online or on the street corner, is already illegal, so the point of the proposed legislation is more about limiting competition."

Steve DelBianco, executive director of NetChoice had more colorful commentary, likening retailers' attempts to blame online auction sites for illegal sales to "blaming the back seat of cars for causing teenage sex."



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What is this world coming to?
By AlexWade on 3/2/2009 9:29:10 AM , Rating: 4
Why is it now guilty until proven innocent? Why is it now proof is now optional? "I have a hunch this really cheap Gucci watch is stolen!" Oh yeah, based on what? "I have a hunch this guy raped that girl!" Oh yeah, based on what?

Second, why is it no longer acceptable to let the market decide? Local shops should adapt or die. Survival of the fittest. Granted, it would be a shame if local shops died. But do they really think local shops won't bully the on-line sites? Absolute power corrupts absolutely, and since there is no need of proof ... bullying is inevitable. Seriously, does anyone think of the consequences anymore?




RE: What is this world coming to?
By Reclaimer77 on 3/2/2009 9:41:08 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
Adds another eBay spokesperson continues, "These bills are blatantly discriminatory against online business models. Selling stolen goods anywhere, online or on the street corner, is already illegal, so the point of the proposed legislation is more about limiting competition."


Yup.

Silly legislation. I'm so tired of Congress making more laws on top of laws that already exist for things that are already illegal.


By scrapsma54 on 3/4/2009 12:27:47 AM , Rating: 2
At times I wonder, Does congress make choices based off of whats morally right?


RE: What is this world coming to?
By Lord 666 on 3/2/2009 9:45:39 AM , Rating: 2
With the economy being perceived as poor and people strapped for money, we will be seing more legitmate merchandise sold at fire sale prices. It is someone's right to sell something they purchased legally at whatever price they choose to.

Unfortunately, law makers do not understand fair market value or desparation and feel creating laws to protect corporate brand value over citizens well being is more important.


RE: What is this world coming to?
By Targon on 3/3/2009 7:12:11 AM , Rating: 2
Margins may be lower, but will still be above the cost of products from wholesalers. You have to do a LOT of business to get the volume discounts needed to legally sell for the super-cheap prices stolen items are being sold for online.


By pixelslave on 3/3/2009 2:53:12 PM , Rating: 2
This is a myth. Even if you are a ultra-super large volume retailers, your so called "volume-discount" will still not match those stolen items' "RETAIL PRICE". Big retailers' discount may be a couple percentage point lower than a smaller retailers, but that's about it. The fact is, their savings probably go straight to their higher cost of operating their business (unnecessary electricity usage, less profitable branches, etc.)

Big retailers, however, occasionally sell at below wholesale price because they already made money from previous sales and need to get rid of inventory to reduce storage cost and make room for new products. This is where smaller retailers are at a disadvantage because they do not have the volume to support similar tactics.


RE: What is this world coming to?
By bhieb on 3/2/09, Rating: 0
RE: What is this world coming to?
By GaryJohnson on 3/2/2009 11:34:52 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure where this "without proof" stuff is coming from. I don't support these bills, but all of them specifically mention either requiring evidence or letting the provider make their own judgement.


RE: What is this world coming to?
By jhb116 on 3/2/2009 9:14:03 PM , Rating: 2
Check out the 8th paragraph from the top.

So this is the change our country has voted for?? All three bills were intro'd by Democrats. Remember this the next time Democrats tell you "they represent the little guy." BOTH parties represent big business - the Democrats just hide it better than the Republicans.....


By GaryJohnson on 3/3/2009 1:00:21 AM , Rating: 2
I read the 8th paragraph in the article, that's what I'm referring to. I looked up the proposed bills at the LoC and none of them say it that way. The article is referencing another article which does not reference the actual proposed bills. I don't know where the 'without proof' thing is coming from.


RE: What is this world coming to?
By phxfreddy on 3/2/2009 6:35:36 PM , Rating: 1
This is how the democrats roll baby.

We libertarians have defaulted to voting republican for years because while highly imperfect they are similtaneously WAY better than democrats.


RE: What is this world coming to?
By Ryanman on 3/3/2009 11:06:22 AM , Rating: 1
Amen


RE: What is this world coming to?
By Targon on 3/3/09, Rating: 0
Both sides play the victim. X*(
By Alpha4 on 3/2/2009 4:29:52 PM , Rating: 2
I love how both parties involved claim the economic situation makes their case more relevant and dire.
quote:
Sen. Durbin states, "In the midst of the deepening economic crisis, organized retail crime seems to be flourishing."
quote:
President and CEO Ed Black writes,"...At a time of financial duress and economic contraction, the last thing we should be doing is attacking innovative e-commerce services that contribute to economic growth."
Who is it hurting more!?

Was there any attempt at communication (besides PR spamming) between these individuals? Somehow I doubt it, because I can honestly see room for a middle ground here.

I'm in favour of forcing sellers to maintain logs, but not of giving retailers the authority to submit takedown requests without evidense.

It's perfectly fair to demand online merchants at least provide receipts for all transactions, as this would put the onus on the retailer to maintain their records more thoroughly. Crime should not be allowed to manifest itself because people are irresponsible with receipts.




By mindless1 on 3/2/2009 6:27:47 PM , Rating: 3
Why? It's really nobody's business who your, or my, customers are. The idea of limiting crime ALWAYS has to be weighed against reasonable expectations of privacy and avoiding placing a burden on law-abiding citizens. There comes a point where the solution is worse than the problem.


By phxfreddy on 3/2/2009 6:43:13 PM , Rating: 2
Ok let's trade. You want me to keep a log of my various deals that I manage to come across? ....what are you willing to give in return for crimping my financial and economic freedom?

How about log of every girl you sleep with? Because AIDS is deadly and results in more harm than a simple shoplifting I think any reasonable thinker like you should be in favor of this!

Crimping freedom is NEVER a good idea except to those the profit off of it. That is why the retailers and the democrat part have the positions they do.

Why not just make us all slaves right now? Why our loss of freedom so excruciating. Just remove it all now. Go ahead. Let's see if that makes it a better world to live in. NOT.


By tmouse on 3/3/2009 8:59:54 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure whether these laws apply to retailers like Best Buy demanding a takedown or is it retailers like Vuitton who are also the manufactures? In their case they KNOW what the items wholesale for and who gets what discount. In that case, any items that are being sold as "new" for a price that would have to be at a loss, the sales should be stopped with no further questions asked. Now IF the seller can prove they bought the items, they are real, and show they are losing money on each then they should be allowed to sell them as "used". A person should be able to sell what they purchased at any price they want BUT let’s be real; if someone is selling multiple items at a unrealistic discount (ie what the manufacture KNOWS would be a loss) they are either stolen goods or knock offs which should NOT be allowed to be sold. Now I do not think most designer items are worth the price but that does not give anyone the right to capitalize by selling stolen or counterfeit goods. If you cannot afford the real thing and do not want to try to find a hand me down ; you have no "right" to purchase a stolen item or a counterfeit one. This is a big difference from most of the examples being cited in many of the posts which would be B&M stores crushing internet competition. As an aside if you are routinely selling things on e Bay you are running a private business and are required to report earnings for tax purposes.


I grow weary of Congress' idiocy
By Fenixgoon on 3/2/2009 9:37:38 AM , Rating: 4
Perhaps it is time I finally gave my senators and representatives calls and tell them just how dumb 535 people can be. After all, none of us is as dumb as all of us!




By ebakke on 3/2/2009 11:47:50 AM , Rating: 3
You should ask them to introduce a bill requiring that specific Demotivator be displayed in both houses of Congress at all times.


Big Boy's Don't Cry
By Jay2tall on 3/2/2009 9:56:36 AM , Rating: 2
Steve DelBianco, executive director of NetChoice had more colorful commentary, likening retailers' attempts to blame online auction sites for illegal sales to "blaming the back seat of cars for causing teenage sex."
YOU TELL'EM STEVE! I had to chuckle at this comment.

So the economy is hurting, people are looking for better deals for products on line from small resellers that do not have the higher markup of the big boys. So the big boys complain that their are illegal sales going on and now they can yank products offline at will from the little guys? What a crock. Yes, there are stolen items sold on eBay, and other sites. However they have their own systems in place to help eliminate those items. Also, counterfeit items, same deal as stolen. But, you can not punish good people trying to make money by selling items at a better price than the big guys with huge overhead. Maybe the big, boys need to cut their cost, cut their price, sell online, and compete with the little guys. It's called competition, and who says the little guy can't win? You can't take away their freedom because a few are conducting illegal activities.




RE: Big Boy's Don't Cry
By phxfreddy on 3/2/2009 6:39:16 PM , Rating: 2
Look democrats have this mindset where they want to control to socially engineer the culture. The danger with them is they can implement their hair brained schemes because they have the mainstream media in their hip pocket.

The best option is electing libertarians. Web 2.0 is essentially a libertarian coup d'etat in stealth mode.

Failing a viable libertarian you vote in a republican and mainly because they are less effective at bringing off their own bad ideas.


Because they don't get a cut?
By Jjoshua2 on 3/2/2009 11:58:46 AM , Rating: 2
Maybe the government would be fine with it if they could just get sales tax on all internet purchases. I think it will probably happen eventually, but I hope it takes a long time.
Its time to end the era of big government that keeps on taking oversight of new things. I think it should be required of every statesmen to take a basic test on the Constitution to prove that they have read it.




By phxfreddy on 3/2/2009 6:45:51 PM , Rating: 2
You hit the nail on the head. Democrats have never met a tax they did not like. Ebay has to be sticking in their craws because of the nontaxability angle. They also hate the idea of the slealth libertarian revolution that is going on that results from the common man getting a real world business education.

How about getting some new politicians instead?


ebay will turn into CL
By b534202 on 3/2/2009 6:48:04 PM , Rating: 2
This would turn out to be like Craigslist ... if you try to sell something cheaper than other people's on CL, they'll swarm and flag your post and get it removed. CL doesn't require any proof that something's wrong either. People just have to say so.




RE: ebay will turn into CL
By phxfreddy on 3/2/2009 7:03:37 PM , Rating: 2
The real issue is the records keeping. How do you really manage this with an item you have had for 20 years? Its really an issue of where the government hates the fact you are creating insufficient money velocity when you buy used. At the same time they hate the fact you might not pay taxes on what you are selling.


Stopping Internet Sales
By Avitar on 3/3/2009 5:52:12 PM , Rating: 2
The US Constitution says that a state or City may not tax an import from another state. Every local merchant hates that and wants his market protected and every local politician wants to bleed anyone he can reach.

The purpose of that clause of the Constitution was to assure that if the city of Boston started shaking down merchants who bring goods to market then the buyer could by pass the local merchants and go to Providence buy the same items without paying the local politicians their graft. This will always irritate the local power elite.

The whole purposes of these bills are to violate the Constitution and promote graft.




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