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  (Source: immigrationlawchronicles.com)
Large technology companies in particular like Microsoft and Autodesk are pushing Congress to up the number of H-1B visas available each year

The U.S. government announced this week that work permits in the H-1B visa program are almost entirely depleted for 2013.

According to the United States Immigration and Citizenship Services (USCIS), 55,600 standard H-1B visas have already been issued out of 65,000 for the next fiscal year. In addition, 18,700 H-1B visas for graduates of advanced degree programs were issued in the U.S. out of 20,000. These numbers were posted as of June 1, and USCIS started accepting applications on April 1.

This is a significant increase, considering it took until November to use up all of last year's work permits. It is believed that this is a sign of better economic times, and U.S. companies are pushing for an expansion of the H-1B program.

Large technology companies in particular like Microsoft and Autodesk are pushing Congress to up the number of H-1B visas available each year. This would allow them and other companies in the U.S. to import workers with skills in technology and finance.

According to a study from Partnership for A New American Economy, which is an industry lobby group, the U.S. will have a shortage of 224,000 tech workers by 2018 if more visas are not made available.

The 2013 fiscal year begins October 1, 2012.

Source: InformationWeek


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Abuse
By dgingerich on 6/12/2012 5:59:24 PM , Rating: 4
Personally, I think this is more corporate abuse of people who don't know better. They bring people over here and pay them half what US citizens get paid, screwing them over from what they deserve, and leave US citizens with these skills out of a job because they don't want to pay them so much.

There are software developers out of jobs right now. There is extra money being made by tech companies out there right now. It could go to US citizens and strengthen our economy, making everyone better off in the long run, but they'd rather get their nice bonuses.




RE: Abuse
By Ringold on 6/12/2012 6:25:24 PM , Rating: 2
If they're getting paid half what their peers here do, for the same skill and productivity level, and it's still more then what they'd get back home, plus they get their foot in the door living in the largest, most dynamic (historically) economy in the world then I don't see how they're being taken advantage of. Further, I've never heard of stories of H1B visa workers complaining of feeling trapped here, unable to return to their third-world homes.

Also, where are these unemployed developers? They're not in my little corner of the country. I've seen the same litany of tech job posts go unfilled here for years. Not exaggerating, either; YEARS. There's also companies like Siemens that've been reporting problem finding US grads in specific fields for years as well. In fact, there's mountains of evidence there's a structural (ie, skill related, not cyclical) job problem in this country, and not much evidence of H1B being a problem. I can probably link 20 articles, minimum, from the Economist from the past couple years describing job shortages, hundreds from broader sources like WSJ, Bloomberg, Forbes, FT, etc. The only place I've ever seen what you're saying is internet forums.

Furthermore, WTF is this country doing restricting the amount of college-educated people that want to come to this country? We'll look the other way when uneducated hordes of Mexicans cross the border, but the worlds best and brightest want to come here and work, create wealth and put down roots and we want to stop them? This is not the mentality that led us to gobble up the German rocket scientists that eventually put us on the moon; it's another step towards being that sclerotic continent our founders ran away from. What's the point of being the shining city upon a hill, as Reagan would put it, if we put up razor wire, land mines and moats around that hill to keep everyone out? Just feels to me to be totally counter to what the nation was founded upon.


RE: Abuse
By JediJeb on 6/12/2012 6:47:19 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
Also, where are these unemployed developers? They're not in my little corner of the country. I've seen the same litany of tech job posts go unfilled here for years. Not exaggerating, either; YEARS. There's also companies like Siemens that've been reporting problem finding US grads in specific fields for years as well.


The reason we are in this shape is because we let our education system push students towards arts and entertainment instead of science and technology. We water down the curriculum until almost every student can pass with an A or B grade so that the school looks good on the books, yet the ones graduating from them can barely solve a simple cross word puzzle or count change at the store. We have one kid we recently hired who was told to check on his work at a quarter past three. He gave a blank stare and we had to tell him that meant 3:15. He had never heard the word quarter used in any fashion other than to describe a coin and did not know that fifteen minutes was 1/4 of an hour or even that a quarter was 1/4 of a dollar, only that it was 25 cents. Seriously, I learned these things when I was in the third grade! My sister who is a special ed teacher said that the school systems are not even telling regular ed teachers to have students learn their multiplication tables anymore, they would rather they learn to do math on a calculator. They worry more about if a student can get along with other students than if they can count, read, or just about any other thing necessary for survival in life. No wonder we have to look outside the US for technology jobs to be filled.

We need to go back to a time in our schools when failure was an option, and you paid the price for goofing off instead of studying. Listening to things teachers tell me today makes me wonder if in two generations from now the US will even have a population that know anything beyond being able to push a button are receive a prize.


RE: Abuse
By fic2 on 6/12/12, Rating: 0
RE: Abuse
By tecknurd on 6/12/12, Rating: 0
RE: Abuse
By nafhan on 6/13/2012 10:33:10 AM , Rating: 2
Parents are to blame for a lot of this, too.
Based on stuff teachers I know have said, "if a student can get along with other students" is MUCH more of a legitimate concern than it was in the past. Not disagreeing you, more trying to point out that fixing the education system isn't something that can necessarily be done by the education system, alone.


RE: Abuse
By JediJeb on 6/13/2012 11:21:57 AM , Rating: 2
Very true! Parents are part of the education system whether they want to be or not.


RE: Abuse
By MrBlastman on 6/13/2012 2:28:24 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
We need to go back to a time in our schools when failure was an option, and you paid the price for goofing off instead of studying. Listening to things teachers tell me today makes me wonder if in two generations from now the US will even have a population that know anything beyond being able to push a button are receive a prize.


The Government doesn't want this though. They want people to act like Oliver and hold out their hands in despair asking, "More, please" as we shovel slop onto their plates that is only rapidly scarfed down and empty once more.

The Government understands that if people are taught how to think, they can't be controlled. Thus, it would require too much effort to keep them dependent. It knows that if people learn how to overcome challenges, they won't grovel for help instead.

The Government does this for job security. If We the People realized (in their eyes) that we don't really need all the excessive fluff they (take) provide, none of this would be allowed to happen. Thus, our schools are dumbed down, the people's minds are allowed to atrophy and the spirit of our country is allowed to blow off into oblivion.

My wife is a teacher and I haven't heard of kids not learning their multiplication tables anymore. It could be that she's taught at private schools for years, not public ones. I'll have to ask her about that tonight.


RE: Abuse
By mellomonk on 6/13/2012 4:37:35 PM , Rating: 1
Wow. Just wow. The statement above, with all of it's fear, suspicion, and outright conspiracy theory wackiness is a poster for the failure of our education system. The fact that someone could be so media manipulated to have such an opinion of his own government is sad.

Free and skeptical thinking is great. But biased wacky reinterpretation is not thinking free. Wake up and read a civics book and get involved in the political process. Learn about the limits of government, implementation of policy, and checks & balances.


RE: Abuse
By 1prophet on 6/14/2012 12:45:43 PM , Rating: 2
Instead of government how about owners?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acLW1vFO-2Q


RE: Abuse
By Ringold on 6/14/2012 5:35:13 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Learn about the limits of government, implementation of policy, and checks & balances.


You'd be 100% correct if the constitution was respected, but we ignore it and its intent every day. Between the interstate commerce clause's abuse and the EPA's being allowed to regulate CO2, the government has given itself a blank check to regulate every aspect of our lives at the federal level, and then we've got local politicians like Bloomberg that want to tell us what to eat, how much, etc., or Obama dictating free birth control for one segment of the population at the expense of all others, etc. Then look at the recess appointments he's made, bypassing the Senate's constitutional job of vetting various appointments. Bush did it on a temporary basis, but it's a whole new level now.

So, asides from the occasional circus of elections where most people vote the same way year after year, I do not see any of this "checks & balances" stuff you speak of. I mean, I see it in the constitution, but where is the check and balance with Eric Holder appointing a campaign contributor and long time personal friend to investigate his own misdeeds?

Tl;dr: Wake up.


RE: Abuse
By Trisped on 6/13/2012 5:23:17 PM , Rating: 2
Wow, your ignorance is appalling.

The phrase "A quarter past three" went out of style with the advent of the digital clock. We no longer have to estimate time due to the limitations of the analog clock, as such we say exactly what we mean, if we mean 3:10, 3:15, or 3:20 we just say it. Have you ever heard someone say "A sixth past three." or "A third past three."? then why do you insist that the new generation be required to understand your archaic and inaccurate way of communicating time?

While I agree it is important to teach kids the multiplication tables, this is not the 1970s where calculators are expensive with limited functionality, calculators are everywhere. You can find them on your computer, your phone, your tablet, you can buy them for $5 in most stores, or get which can do more them your advanced calculus teacher. So yes, I think it is important to teach kids to memorize the basic 0-10 multiplication tables, but they will probably never use it. Instead they will depend on the higher accuracy and faster calculator.


RE: Abuse
By Solandri on 6/13/2012 6:07:09 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The phrase "A quarter past three" went out of style with the advent of the digital clock. We no longer have to estimate time due to the limitations of the analog clock, as such we say exactly what we mean, if we mean 3:10, 3:15, or 3:20 we just say it.

The phrase "a quarter past three" is actually conveying two pieces of information. A time and a range. If you want to meet at exactly 3:15, you say 3:15. If you want to meet at about 3:15, you say a quarter past three. That specifies a timeframe of about 3:10-3:20 for most people. It's basically a short way of saying, "3:15, give or take x minutes".

This is a big problem I see in younger people, probably because of the reason you cited - the advent of digital clocks. One of the engineers at a previous job was tasked with making sure a ship we were building stayed within the design weight. He had a huge spreadsheet with the weight of every layer of fiberglass, every can of epoxy, every piece of equipment, every nut and bolt. I was actually impressed with how thorough he had been. But he had no error margins. He could tell you exactly how much he thought the ship weighed, but he had absolutely no clue how accurate his total was. Was it off by a few grams? A few kg? A few tons? No idea. We couldn't make an accurate prediction of how fast the ship would go when selecting an engine. We had to wait until it was actually in the water with engines installed.

quote:
While I agree it is important to teach kids the multiplication tables, this is not the 1970s where calculators are expensive with limited functionality, calculators are everywhere. You can find them on your computer, your phone, your tablet, you can buy them for $5 in most stores, or get which can do more them your advanced calculus teacher. So yes, I think it is important to teach kids to memorize the basic 0-10 multiplication tables, but they will probably never use it.

Learning the multiplication table isn't about being able to give quick answers to multiplication questions or exact change in a store. It's about gaining insight into numbers and proportions. If you have the table memorized, you know intuitively whether 4 groups of 8 is bigger or smaller than 5 groups of 6. Estimation becomes more accurate, and everyone uses estimates even if they hated math. It's why when someone makes a post about powering something with solar panels, I can usually tell at a glance whether he's in the right ballpark or seriously off, before I do any exact calculations.


RE: Abuse
By Ringold on 6/14/2012 5:39:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
It's why when someone makes a post about powering something with solar panels, I can usually tell at a glance whether he's in the right ballpark or seriously off, before I do any exact calculations.


Yes! A thousand times yes. Back in college some times peers would think I was some sort of math savant, being able to glance at their work and point out the huge problems immediately. No, in fact I'm pretty bad and don't enjoy math at all, but I bothered to understand it, so it's not hard to have a feel for where an equation should be going or where a final answer should be before working out the math. That's, apparently, not an easy thing for kids to do any more, and I have to believe it seriously would crimp their productivity at any math or engineering related job, where they have more errors to go back and correct later because they're too ignorant to catch them on the fly versus better educated peers.


RE: Abuse
By Trisped on 6/13/2012 5:33:02 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The reason we are in this shape is because we let our education system push students towards arts and entertainment instead of science and technology.
Schools do not push, they lead or enable. If a student does not want to learn Newtonian physics then they will not learn it. You can force them to take the course, you can force them to take the test, but unless they want to learn, they won't.

The real problem is kids do not want to learn. And why should they? The only people who become rich are actors, inventors, and drug dealers. All the other high paying professions outsource their development to foreign nations, or import foreign workers so they do not have to pay them what they are worth. If more companies were willing to pay more for technical workers, more people would pursue those careers. The additional people pursuing the careers would allow more competition and separation of those who know the field vs those who do not.


RE: Abuse
By Solandri on 6/13/2012 6:29:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Schools do not push, they lead or enable. If a student does not want to learn Newtonian physics then they will not learn it. You can force them to take the course, you can force them to take the test, but unless they want to learn, they won't.

You're assuming the only incentives are carrots. There are sticks as well. I'd agree with you that on the whole carrots are a better incentive. But what is the point of sparing the child from a stick in school, if it'll lead him to a lifetime of sticks in the form of low income jobs?

quote:
The real problem is kids do not want to learn. And why should they? The only people who become rich are actors, inventors, and drug dealers. All the other high paying professions outsource their development to foreign nations, or import foreign workers so they do not have to pay them what they are worth.

That more reflects your loss of faith in the country than it does reality. My extended family and myself are all immigrants (none on H-1Bs). Each family came to this country with only $1000 in our name (that was all our native country would let us take with us at the time). Since then, most of us have made upper-middle class lives for ourselves. Three people started and own million dollar companies. One started and owns a multi-million dollar chain of cell phone stores. The worst off lives in a trailer home, but makes do. Our parents stressed to us, and we stress to our kids, the importance of a good education, and living within our means (my early childhood was spent in low income housing).

The opportunity is there. In the case of K-12 education it's handed to you on a silver platter. You just have to reach out and grasp it. If you instead wallow in self-pity that others are taking it from you, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. The companies getting these H-1Bs didn't get them because they sat and whined about how there weren't enough skilled workers. They got them because they worked and lobbied for them. If you want to eliminate them, you have to work to succeed and lobby for to end them, not sit and whine about it.


RE: Abuse
By Mint on 6/13/2012 7:02:37 PM , Rating: 2
I can't believe you got rated to a 5 for this worthless theory.

The education system is pushing people towards arts instead of technology? WTF? I bet 80% of highschool grads learn more algebra than they'll ever use in their life, so they're pushing people there as much as they can. Who on earth would choose an arts degree instead of a tech career? Earning potential is WAY higher with the latter. If you enjoy math/science and are good at it, you'd have to be an ignoramus to pursue arts as a career.

FYI, arithmetic has almost nothing to do with the math skills needed in technology, and I can only assume that you're not an engineer, scientist, or programmer. If anything, we should have more calculators in school, forcing curriculums to come up with more creative problems to solve.

If you want to blame something for luring kids away from science and engineering, blame American society for the allure of chasing liberal arts tail...


RE: Abuse
By dgingerich on 6/12/12, Rating: 0
RE: Abuse
By ATrigo on 6/12/2012 7:25:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
As far as government people looking the other way, that's the democrats looking to have more "voters" who get trapped in the giveaway system to vote for them.


You know, foreign nationals, either as lawful permanent residents (green card holders) or non permanent residents (H1-B, TN, L, E, O, etc visas) cannot vote. Pretty much registering while not a U.S Citizen for voting in an election is a one way ticket out of the country.

Yes, you can tell me that they will get the residency and become U.S Citizens and what not, that at least takes 10 years.


RE: Abuse
By dgingerich on 6/12/12, Rating: 0
RE: Abuse
By ATrigo on 6/12/2012 9:08:23 PM , Rating: 3
RE: Abuse
By ATrigo on 6/12/2012 9:09:02 PM , Rating: 2
*USCIS*


RE: Abuse
By someguy123 on 6/13/2012 4:26:31 AM , Rating: 3
That's what you call headline spin. If you read the article, Florida was indeed attempting to remove illegal registrations, but the justice department is suing them because they believe their methods are inaccurate and because they failed to meet deadlines, not for the sake of the illegal immigrants.


RE: Abuse
By FITCamaro on 6/13/2012 7:54:30 AM , Rating: 1
Bullshit. The DoJ is suing them because the administration wants as many illegitimate voters on the rolls as possible in November since those who cannot legally vote nearly always vote Democrat.

A state is well within its rights to look into voter rolls see who they think isn't eligible to vote, and ask the person "Hey we think you're not allowed to vote. Please get back to us and prove you are." That WW2 vet that they're waving around as an example of how flawed it is goes directly against their argument of discrimination. It shows that whatever method they used didn't just identify particular groups of people. People from multiple groups got flagged. Yes, the majority of the people who get questioned undoubtedly will be of hispanic descent because that is the background of the vast majority of illegal aliens in the US, much less Florida.

They're not just kicking people off the voter rolls without the opportunity to prove otherwise. They identified people based on IDs. I'm guessing the ID is for someone who is dead or what is believed to be a fake ID based on some information. They want to try and verify their list with Homeland Security, but they're blocked there as well since, again, the administration doesn't want those people off the rolls.

They use that voter rights act to say that Florida is making a change to election laws when in fact they're not changing any law. It is already against the law to vote when you're not eligible. Like Arizona is with the border, Florida is merely trying to enforce the law since the federal government has no interest in doing so.


RE: Abuse
By dgingerich on 6/13/2012 7:51:42 AM , Rating: 1
That's just the BS excuse they use. They've also blocked other ways states have used to block illegal aliens from voting, and not just this administration:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpolitics/2012/02/07...
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/daily/o...

their attack dogs have pushed for illegal voters for a long time:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124182750646102435...


RE: Abuse
By someguy123 on 6/13/2012 8:54:41 AM , Rating: 2
You can join in on the spin, but even the USA today article points out that other states have ID laws in place, making these ban targeted, meaning there are other issues at play than simply banning ID checks, otherwise they would ban them everywhere and apparently win every election.

WSJ article is about ACORN mismanagement the obama administration having a clear agenda due to being linked to ACORN. Doesn't really have anything to do with with the Florida ban, which is attempting to run its own sweep for illegal registrations.


RE: Abuse
By FITCamaro on 6/13/2012 12:56:18 PM , Rating: 2
I live in SC. Our voter ID bill even had the provision for giving out free IDs to those who claimed they couldn't afford one. But Democrats called it racist, discriminatory, and even Holder said it was too much of a burden for minorities to have to show ID at the polls. Apparently when they show it to buy alcohol, certain drugs, a car, at the DMV, or any other of the many places where ID is required, its not a burden. But when they go to vote, somehow its a burden.

I was asked for ID yesterday when I voted.


RE: Abuse
By dgingerich on 6/13/2012 2:35:19 PM , Rating: 2
Sorry, I guess I picked the wrong ACORN article. I had several open at the time. I thought I got the right one.

I don't have time to look those up now, but I'm sure you're heard about it in cities all over the country. They signed up all sorts of people to register to vote who had no right to vote.

I still don't understand how a state issues photo ID could be a burden to the poor. I've been poor. I've lived on >$8000/year back in 2003 and 2004, taking every job I could find. My car would stall when I'd make a left turn. I was eating ramen and mac and cheese constantly, and sometimes that was even too expensive to have more than every other day. (I went from 215lbs down to 180lbs in 9 months during that time.) I wasn't able to get an oil change for my car for almost a year. There was a month when all I could afford was to keep my car insured and gas. All I had to eat were hand outs. Yet I was still able to prioritize and keep my car insured so I could keep getting small jobs. 2 and a half years, I managed to keep going. I even managed to get the money together to get my ID renewed for $15 during that time. More importantly, I made it through all that with nearly no government handouts. (I did collect unemployment from April 2002 to October 2002, but from then on I was on my own.)

The complaints by the Democrats on voter identification requirements are just total BS. They don't make any sense. If something is a priority, people will do what they need to get it done, even getting an ID and keeping their SS card and/or birth certificate.


RE: Abuse
By mellomonk on 6/13/2012 4:26:16 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The complaints by the Democrats on voter identification requirements are just total BS. They don't make any sense. If something is a priority, people will do what they need to get it done, even getting an ID and keeping their SS card and/or birth certificate.


It is not the requirement that is the problem. NOBODY thinks that is truly a burden. It is all about the timing. It will take many months to years to implement such a requirement. On top of that you have to convince the poor and suspicious that this is a good thing. Of course the conservative element wants to roll this out this year, an election year. Oh, and no card no vote. Interesting. And which party would this unduly effect? To late. To do it this year is gerrymandering. They need to get started on this AFTER the election in the interest of fairness.


RE: Abuse
By knutjb on 6/12/2012 8:06:47 PM , Rating: 3
What should occur is to allow wages to increase commensurate with the demand. This program seems to pander to companies trying to keep wages in those high demand fields suppressed. Stop the inept immigration policy and let those who stand in line in and make it impossible for those who jump the line or fence to stay employed by sending their employers to jail.

Since the end of Apollo the spigots from engineering departments have been closed and universities have become bastions of liberal arts and pseudo sciences.

That said all I hear is open up the H1Bs. Short term band-aid, nothing more. Long term, educators feet must be held to the fire. How many more underwater basket weaving majors do we need? This can be corrected in public institutions. Though they seem to be happy teaching 9th grade math to those pursuing that underwater basket weaving degree. That paradigm must change.

Also the k-12 educational system does little to encourage students to do the hard work required for these fields. They need to held to the same fire as universities.


RE: Abuse
By nafhan on 6/13/2012 10:29:25 AM , Rating: 2
A decent percentage of people who come here on H1B's end up becoming citizens - well educated citizens who increase the productivity of the US as a whole. Further, these are often people who place high value on science and engineering and pass those values onto their American children. If you want to make the country a place where science and engineering are valued, importing some people who value it seems like a good idea to me...

Also, I do think we've reached a bit of a tipping point. Between technology becoming so obviously integrated into our lives and recent celebrity of tech industry leaders, I think more people are starting to realize that maybe there is something to this science and engineering stuff - it's not just for nerds; it's for people who want to succeed in the rest of this century.


RE: Abuse
By JediJeb on 6/13/2012 11:31:18 AM , Rating: 2
One problem though is they see that famous tech person and want to be them, but do not want to have to put in the hard work it took them to get there. Too many today want the end result handed to them at the start instead of working their way up to it.


RE: Abuse
By nafhan on 6/13/2012 2:23:25 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed, however, that's more of a cultural problem that affects every profession, and it's a separate issue from the disdain that used to be the norm for technical work and knowledge.


RE: Abuse
By fic2 on 6/12/2012 8:47:04 PM , Rating: 4
Here is an '07 article about H1-B from Information Week. I am sure most of it is still true.
http://www.informationweek.com/news/201200100
From the aritcle:
But Norman Matloff, a professor of computer science at the University of California at Davis who has studied the H-1B issue, sees the visa fundamentally as a way to hire cheaper foreigners or to avoid hiring older U.S. workers seen as more expensive. "This is about cheap labor, period," says Matloff. "H-1Bs are being exploited, even as U.S. workers are being displaced."

Just because companies report what they want you to think doesn't mean that it is true. Also, WSJ, Bloomberg, Forbes, FT, etc are all business papers/magazines and report what businesses tell them. I would be more apt to believe a tech journal.

Maybe a good way to allocate the H1-B visas is by income tax percentage a company pays. A company that jumps through hoops trying to lower their income tax percentage would be eligible for a lower number of visas.


RE: Abuse
By Ringold on 6/14/2012 5:47:59 PM , Rating: 2
A professor of computer science, that sounds like an unbiased source.

Anyway, you don't understand how some of these companies work. They'd take what they could get, young or old, if they could. They'd rather pay higher wages and deal with whatever issues come with having an older employee (like slightly dated skills, being a fast moving industry), then to leave a job empty. That can hurt growth and potential profit more then extra wages. There's cases in the news of entire factories trying to open but having to scrap their plans for a whole facility due to only being able to source maybe 1/3 the labor they need in various parts of the country. Sounds like left-wing spin that'd lead you to believe some crazy notion that a company would pass up the opportunity to expand and make more money just to avoid older workers and slightly higher compensation (especially if you knew labor was, for some products, just a small part of overall costs, especially manufacturing).


RE: Abuse
By JediJeb on 6/12/2012 6:28:44 PM , Rating: 2
I have to question this statement. Our company used to employ a chemist from China, and I remember that every year we had to send in full disclosure of what he was paid, what others in the same job were paid, full company financial records and a lot of other hoops to jump through just to keep him employed. If you want to use an H-1B to run a sweat shop, you would have to do quite a bit of record faking to get by with it.


RE: Abuse
By fic2 on 6/12/2012 6:59:56 PM , Rating: 2
Anecdotal, but I worked with an FPGA developer from France about 10-12 years ago. At one point he told me what he was making and I think it was about $10k less than I was - Senior Software Engineer at the time. When he got his green card he went to another company and a $40k raise so I would say he was probably under the market for his job.


RE: Abuse
By WalksTheWalk on 6/13/2012 12:59:17 PM , Rating: 2
The H1-B and J visa's are not used for old-style sweat shops, but I see the abuse at our customers all of the time.

They bring IT folks from India over under the visa, pay them at the lowest possible end of the scale so it doesn't get picked up on their governmental wages report then work them like dogs. The folks from India are happy to do it because it beats what they get back home and if they don't like it there are 50,000 more people like them back in India to take their place.

I don't blame the folks from India, they're just trying to get ahead. I partly blame the companies but not completely. They know how to work the system and they do it to gain competitive advantage. Some of them have to to compete with overseas labor. I also partly blame the government for not making the visa process secure so they know who's here, why and what the terms are.


RE: Abuse
By rocketbuddha on 6/13/2012 1:45:04 PM , Rating: 2
As a former H1B and now a EAD holder waiting for my GC (for eternity) these are my comments

a) This is the first discussion where vitriol was not spread or thrown and has been far civil(looking at you ZDNet). You would still get some members quote Fox news and/or Lou Dobbs ;-). For that, kudos and appreciations the current forum members. If not for this level of civility I would not pen the below (mini)rant.

b) JediJeb is right. For getting a H1B approval you have to undergo what is called a Labor Clearance which basically informs DOL that you are/will be paying the H1B holder > prevailing wage at that location by using the DOL statistics for that location. The only ways companies can cheat (which is difficult) is by classifying the work different from what you would be hired to do.

c) The US market is based on Supply and Demand right. So when the demand is high you can expect outrageous billing rates and salaries. When the demand is low or supply is high you basically hit the bottom in rates/salaries. So H1B does add to the supply market thus impacting the potential high rates

d) The original way H1B was structured was to provide mobility so that employers cannot exploit H1B workers and if so H1B worker can transfer his H1B to another company and go there. But if you are in the Labor and/or I-140 phases of your Greencard processing, you will have to start from scratch with the new company.
In the early 2000s the overall GC used to be relatively fast and hence jumping to a new company if your old company exploits you, it will affect your future GC related processes but in a far minor way compared to now

e) Once they federalized the labor clearance in 2003-2004 it is a nightmare. So I will be waiting for Labor approval and for me it took > 3yrs for it to be approved. They have now shortened it by forcing all to use PERM (6 mth turnaround). In that 3 year if I had changed companies, I would start a new labor process. So I had to patiently wait. At that time I was paid above the standard wage for my job but if not for this state, could have definitely negotiated for more.

f) When you(H1B) lose a job you will not get any Un-employment benefits. Even though H1Bs pay all taxes like regular citizens/residents but more importantly contribute to SS, Medicare, Unemployment (state wherever applicable), they cannot use any of the social safety net these things offer. Infact within 30-60 days of you being jobless, you need to go back to your country of origin. So with this Damocles sword hanging over your head your options obviously are restricted. So within that window I would have to look at another employer willing to sponsor my H1B and get the process moving in place.

g) Nowadays finding a sponsor of H1B visas is so difficult. Most of the job positions in DICE as well as other areas clearly state "Only valid for Citizens/PRs/GC". sometimes EAD holders are also allowed in this equation. They specifically mention no H1Bs. Since all large companies are targets they keep direct H1B hiring to a minimum but instead lend it out to contracting companies or big MNC consulting firms (IBM Global, Accenture, CTS, Wipro, TCS, Infy etc). Then there are big direct Vendors(DV) which are both First Level IT Contracting Companies or manage Vendor relationships.

h) So existing H1B holders either have the DV/MNCs sponsor them, which again the American ones like the first two will try to minimize unless it is a really hot-hot area, or join the Indian based MNCs in which case you can kiss the weekends good bye and need to work with off-shore wherever applicable. So the only way I would participate would be a sub-contract to the DV/MNC. So if the end-client pays billing rate of 100$/hour, when it jumps 3 hoops before reaching out to me it can easily become 40-50$ an hour.

i) Also these firms function co-opetively(competition + co-operation) may will compete at 1 client but co-operate at others have virtual tie-ups with each other so as to not hire any subcontractors between them thus restricting mobility.

And to make matters more worse there is the government agency USCIS one of which I covered in e). But if this rant went well, I would chime in more..

Thanks...


RE: Abuse
By Reclaimer77 on 6/12/12, Rating: -1
RE: Abuse
By dgingerich on 6/12/2012 9:08:59 PM , Rating: 2
It's not anti-corporate, it's anti-cheater. I've worked in the corporate world for two decades. I like the corporate structure. I just hate people who are too stupid to see the right way to do things, better for everyone, and go for what makes them a buck in the short term.

As I said in another post, I know two developers right in my own company who would like to move up and actually do some software developing, one just out of college and one with 12 years experience, and they're stuck in IT jobs. In the mean time, I would like to move up, and I can't because software developers are holding the jobs I want while foreigners are holding the jobs they want.

Even more, these guys would probably do better at those developer jobs than the guys who can barely understand English. Nothing against them, but if they can't understand what they're supposed to do because they can't understand the directions, how are they supposed to do it well? I know for certain the quality of our software pre-test is getting horrible. (I deal a lot with the builds as they come through, and I find a lot of game breaking bugs.) A lot of those bugs are specifically because a developer didn't understand what he was supposed to do and did it wrong.

It's stupid to serve substandard products and services just to save a buck. Most of the time you pay more in the end. There are many management types that really need to learn this.


RE: Abuse
By FITCamaro on 6/13/2012 7:59:43 AM , Rating: 2
Largely agree. I don't think we need more visas. But agreed that there is definitely demand for software engineers out there. Charleston is becoming a hot bed for technology companies in the south.


RE: Abuse
By botrytis on 6/13/2012 9:59:56 AM , Rating: 1
It is not anti-corporate. There are MANY software devlopers out of work and most of them are older also. This means they have more experience and demand more money. Companies are all about their bottom line except for when it comes to CEO's. You really need to read the reports on how companies use H1-B visas - it is appalling.

As a scientist, I can tell all the people I know who are out of work, looking in the sciences. The first thing that gets downsized in any economic downturn is R&D. There are so many out of work scientists in this country that I recommend college students NOT to go into science.


RE: Abuse
By sigmatau on 6/12/12, Rating: 0
RE: Abuse
By OneArmedScissorB on 6/12/2012 8:19:21 PM , Rating: 2
Why? Because someone else is producing more competitive workers while our crony college debt bubble continues to spam out indentured servants with art degrees?

I think you're on to something. We'll just tax anything that's competitive! Competition is un-American! AMERICA, F*** YEAH!


RE: Abuse
By tecknurd on 6/12/2012 9:21:38 PM , Rating: 1
I agree. USA, my country, should also tax imports and companies that out source. This will not happen when people here prefer to buy products cheaper and cheaper. Also people here prefer to pirate, so the cost goes to the consumer and goes against them at the same time because american citizens can not get a job since a foreigner got the job.


RE: Abuse
By sbtech on 6/12/2012 8:40:22 PM , Rating: 2
Don't be silly.

We will get the best skills at the lowest price. That is how the market works (or should). And with globalisation, it should not be restricted to goods, but also be extended to services.

Labour, capital and entrepreneur, all three are becoming more and more globally mobile. Unless you create protectionist barriers, that is.


RE: Abuse
By mbaroud on 6/12/2012 9:01:45 PM , Rating: 2
I don't think you are anywhere familiar with what an H1B professional is.
I am a Structural Engineer under an H1B Visa.
I am making exactly what a US citizen makes. Why?
Because when the company is applying for the H1B, the DOL (department of labor) makes sure that the salary provided to that foreigner is in line with what the market is paying. For the exact same reason that you are mentioning. The worker does not get abused by the company, additionally, if the employee feels like he is treated wrong or is under paid, he or she is always allowed to obtain a position in another company.


RE: Abuse
By Hieyeck on 6/12/2012 11:50:09 PM , Rating: 1
The first problem the American sense of entitlement. Be competitive. Make yourself valuable to the tech companies. You are the perfect example if entitlement. Why you, instead of some guy who'll do it cheaper, faster, and better?

The second problem is that there's NO ONE DOING IT. Everyone laughs at ITT grads, but tech companies are FORCED to hire these incompetents because there's not enough people. All this education is available to make US citizens valuable, and what do they study? Fine Arts. Photography; Music; WOMENS' STUDIES - for gods sake, you might as well be BEGGING to flip burgers.

I would consider programming a saturated job, since everyone's default tech choice is CompSci, but even they make 40k out of college. But again, we're left to hire ITT diploma mill incompetents.

Finally, why do you think call-centres are all in India? If they can't bring people in to work, the work will just go elsewhere. Everyone should be thankful its just shitty call centre jobs being outsourced right now. Companies are TRYING to keep high paying jobs in the country, but the government needs to let them bring people in who can actually do the job.

In short, this is all the result of capitalism. You want the government to protect your job? Should've let the Soviets win the Cold War. Capitalists succeed because they put effort into their work, and are duly rewarded. Anyone could've made Facebook. YOU could've made Facebook. But you didn't, and that's why he's sitting on his hefty bonus.

The CEO of a company can make decisions that can guide a company to make a billion dollars, or run a billion dollar company into the ground. That combination of ability, knowledge, and guts to not bankrupt your company and put 20,000 people on the streets is why they earn their money. It's all about value added, so a CEO paid a few million a year is a drop in the bucket for Microsoft. It's all about value added. This is part 1 of their salaries.

Part 2 - If you work as a stockboy, Wal-Mart isn't going to collapse if you make the wrong decision. Hell, the store wouldn't even break a sweat if you didn't show to work for a month. On top of that, stockboys are infinitely replaceable. Any mook could do it. The sum total of your knowledge, ability, talents, and ethics is your percentage modifier.

Take an honest, modest look at yourself. Don't sell yourself short, but really look at how much you're really worth, and what you should invest in to make yourself worth more. My own education is lacking, so I'm going back to school while working. I'm a little lazy at work, so I need to find more work and keep my work queue at a higher level, rather than go on cruise.


RE: Abuse
By Loki726 on 6/13/2012 3:34:50 AM , Rating: 3
I strongly disagree. I am a fourth generation US citizen with a PhD in electrical engineering from a top 3 ranked US university, and I have been responsible for interviewing candidates at high tech companies to work with me on advanced development projects.

To your specific points.
- The salaries are not less. I have many colleagues that work in the high tech industry in Seatlle, Austin, San Jose, and Portland. MS graduates with good work history (internships) typically make between 70-100k, regardless of whether they are US citizens or on H1-B visas. PhD graduates typically make 100k-140k as starting salaries. The best of the best candidates with strong work experience in specialized domains can earn 250k+.The majority are on H1-B or have been in the past. Many are now US citizens or greencard holders.
- The jobs could not go to US citizens. In graduate school, the majority of students (80% or higher) were not US citizens. They were Asian, European, South American, etc, on F1 visas. At technical conferences, conventions, and on the job, the distribution is about the same.

There is money being made by tech companies, but they want to hire the most qualified experts in their field, to continue to drive the development of innovative products.

The majority of those experts are not US citizens. Think about it, how could they be?

We have a population of just over 300 million, which is around 4% of the total world population. Do you really expect us to produce the majority of the high end of the tech workforce? This is an industry where high end jobs are disproportionately located in the USA.

Immigration policy is complex, but I think that H1-B is a clear win. We want the best engineers and scientists in the world to move to the US and contribute to our industry.


RE: Abuse
By nafhan on 6/13/2012 10:15:23 AM , Rating: 2
You know what happens if they don't get brought over here?
In many cases, the same people end up doing the work. The difference being they get paid even less and the money ALL goes to a foreign country instead of part or none of it. I remember reading specifically that MS has an office in Canada that they built primarily because they couldn't bring enough people into the US. So, all those intelligent people and all that money went to Canada instead. I have a hard time believing that was a win for the US...
On top of that, it's not unreasonable to believe that every time some work goes out of the country there's a good chance it will stay there.
Finally, cutting down on H1B visas isn't going to make a bunch of qualified American engineers suddenly appear. Jobless rates for people with engineering degrees is VERY low.
We should be encouraging the brain drain from other countries, not trying to cut it off.


RE: Abuse
By NellyFromMA on 6/14/2012 9:20:23 AM , Rating: 2
You sort of do these peopel a disservice when you say 'they don't know any better'. They are intelligent individuals, and they do this because it is lucrative to them. They make great livings they otherwise would not.

If they were Americans, they likely would be paid more and likewise would have greater costs. It balances out.

you need to wrap your head around intenrational economics and how countries individual domestic cost of livings vs employee income scales.

Most of the people on these Visa's see substantially increased quality of life, potentially better than some of our lives in some situations.

What is up with this mentality that everyone is out to screw you? Jesus, just because these people are from other co untries doesn't mean they are ignorant or naive. On the contrary...


Really?
By GotThumbs on 6/12/2012 6:11:04 PM , Rating: 1
With all the illegal (illegally in the US) students currently attending US colleges...this need will be filled soon.

You doubt this? No one has a true idea of how many students illegally in the US are currently in the education system. Try and request just a headcount of current "Out of Status" Non-resident aliens attending US Institutions. Currently there is no law preventing a university from enrolling/registering a student who is illegally in the US. This is a fact.

If there is such a demand...then why is the US NOT focusing on preparing all the out of work English and communications majors for a tech job?




RE: Really?
By voodoobunny on 6/12/2012 6:29:05 PM , Rating: 2
Beeee-cause English majors aren't fit for tech jobs. If they were, then they wouldn't be English majors now would they? I hope you're never responsible for recruiting at any tech companies...

Besides, illegal students attending American colleges wouldn't be allowed to get tech jobs afterwards anyway, so they can't help solve the problem.


RE: Really?
By Ringold on 6/12/2012 6:27:38 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
If there is such a demand...then why is the US NOT focusing on preparing all the out of work English and communications majors for a tech job?


Because they vote Democrat, and the Democrats dont dare call their base idiots for getting useless degrees. Nope, not their fault at all, those poor sweet Occupiers!


RE: Really?
By dgingerich on 6/12/2012 7:16:40 PM , Rating: 2
The more people they can keep trapped in the handout system, the more votes they get. Reduced self esteem is vital to an oppressive regime. If people continue to believe they can't accomplish anything themselves the more they believe they need to have someone take care of them. Keeping the education system teaching useless things, and even being incompetent at that, forwards their agenda.


RE: Really?
By room200 on 6/13/2012 2:03:33 AM , Rating: 1
You are a fucking idiot.


RE: Really?
By room200 on 6/13/2012 2:00:07 AM , Rating: 2
You are a moron.


RE: Really?
By nafhan on 6/13/2012 2:30:34 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Currently there is no law preventing a university from enrolling/registering a student who is illegally in the US.
And there shouldn't be! We have at least one entire department of the government devoted to that type of thing. Why should the universities also be burdened with enforcing immigration law?
quote:
why is the US NOT focusing on preparing all the out of work English and communications majors for a tech job?
Where are you from? People enroll in education voluntarily here, and it's ridiculously easy to get college loans (to easy much of the time). Also, how would they go about that? More free school to all the English majors who have already defaulted on their student loans?


125,000* foreign workers each month not enough?
By vectrav2 on 6/13/2012 1:01:06 AM , Rating: 1
The H-1B visa and all its alphabet soup of fellow work visa's are loophole riddled ways of avoiding hiring qualified US citizens and are an affront to US citizenship.
Maybe you have not seen the secret video where at a conference, immigration lawyers were suggesting ways to avoid hiring qualified US workers.
If you are a experienced and qualified high tech worker but are unemployed and cannot find work in this field you almost certainly can thank the 125,000* work visa waving foreign workers that flood the US labor market each and every month with no consideration of the difficulties US citizen workers are facing.
A stop must be put to the nonsense of a worker shortage when there are literally millions of US citizens qualified for this work.
See *numbersusa.com




By ATrigo on 6/13/2012 12:39:17 PM , Rating: 2
Have you actually read the website's "No Immigrant Bashing" manifesto? Here it is for you

https://www.numbersusa.com/content/learn/about-us/...

You shouldn't provide as evidence or reference a site that opposes by its principles the very thing you are doing in your post.


Jobs lost
By omgwtf8888 on 6/13/2012 4:00:36 PM , Rating: 3
The H1B recipient can stay for up to 6 years. This means that at any time there are in excess of a quarter of a million people here taking jobs. There are plenty of qualified US citizens but they would like to be paid in US wages. This is just a way for corporations to to cut the bottom line. If US companies would like to do us all a favor, take some college grads and train them. The President and the Congress should be fired for allowing all of these jobs to be outsourced while Americans are out of work. We can not compete in this global economy if our corporations are not playing on our team. All of China's corporations are playing for Team China. Throw out all the H1Bs and create 250,000+ jobs immediately!




Cheap Labor!
By aspartame on 6/13/2012 7:45:32 AM , Rating: 2
One of my friends used to work in a medical company under H1B. He was by far the most skilled employee. Some Americans were even getting paid without doing any useful work. He actually quit the job after finding out he had the lowest salary in the entire company.




By tfrog on 6/13/2012 11:50:38 AM , Rating: 2
These visa's remove American dollars from the US economy and stimulate other countries economies far more than they stimulate ours. Most of the money made by these foreign workers tends to end up in their home country than it does this country.

Lastly, corporations are sitting on billions that are supposedly set back to train workers in the sectors that are needed. Where is that money going? I'll tell you. NOWHERE! Companies like Microsoft and Autodesk can employ people under internship much like the stock brokerage industry does with many of it's brokers. Most of those positions are unpaid while they receive training in the field. Many technology companies could and should do this but they won't. Instead they just sit on money they could spend on training those that desire to work in the fields that these companies want. With as many out of work IT people out there, they could easily do this.

And before you go spewing trash about what I'm saying, I'm a CompTIA A+ certified technician who is homeless because I can't afford further training nor get a job in my desired field of employment because of lack of further certifications and my age (52. You want to talk discrimination? Bring it on.




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