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The weapon system fires a non-explosive projectile

Flash Xray composite image of in-flight projectile
Eat your heart out Quake fans

The Naval Surface Warfare Center played the stage for a demonstration of a new naval weapon.  The 8-megajoule railgun was the center of attention on Wednesday, as the navy demonstrated its power and low cost use.  The railgun was designed by General Atomics, a fission and fusion research company based out of San Diego.

Instead of using gunpowder, the railgun uses electricity by sending a current along parallel rails which creates an electromagnetic pulse.  The pulse is so powerful it can file projectiles roughly 200 to 250 nautical miles in about 6 minutes, using the nonexplosive slug weighing about 3.2 kilograms.  After leaving the barrel of the railgun the slug has an estimated launch altitude of about 500,000 feet or roughly 95 miles at possible Mach 7 speeds.  Current conventional guns on Navy vessels have a maximum range of about 15 miles.

Compared to a Tomahawk missile, which costs upwards of $1 million per missile, the railgun only has an estimated sub-$1,000-per-shot cost.  With the absence of gunpowder, the railgun is said to be safer to use, eliminating the possibility of explosions.

According to the Free Lance Star, General Atomic has obtained the $10 million contract for the production of the railgun.

The field deployment of the weapon is not expected for another 13 years.  In the meantime, General Atomic can start work on higher joule railguns for farther and quicker targeting and firing.  The company claims it will develop 16 and 32 megajoule variants of the weapon next.  Fully deployed railguns will be rated at approximately 64 megajoules.


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this is why i love america
By otispunkmeyer on 1/22/2007 3:51:05 AM , Rating: 5
although im not american (im british) i love america for the fact that you guys are willing to spend the green on seriously cool military hardware

you have the best planes, tanks, ships, missiles, radar everything. you just need some good british troops to help you use it all :P

seriously all the stuff you guys make would make me hella proud of america....SR-71 alone would make me proud, that is the most beautiful machine on the planet.

good show guys




RE: this is why i love america
By Fibbly on 1/22/2007 5:20:09 AM , Rating: 1
Best Tanks? No. Best planes? For some purposes, yes, no for others. Same for ships. What makes our military so strong is the combination of it and also quantity of the quality hardware. And last but not least, the practice.


RE: this is why i love america
By TheDoc9 on 1/22/2007 10:08:35 AM , Rating: 3
so, who does have the best of these things 'fibb' ly?


RE: this is why i love america
By hubajube on 1/22/2007 11:41:14 AM , Rating: 4
quote:
so, who does have the best of these things 'fibb' ly?
I think what he means is that our hardware could be better. Much better. He's on point on the practice. That's really what makes the difference.


RE: this is why i love america
By BladeVenom on 1/22/2007 11:47:19 AM , Rating: 3
The Challenger 2 tank is just as good as ours. The Chobham armor that the M1s use was invented by the British.

The Starstreak antiaircraft missile looks good.


RE: this is why i love america
By stromgald on 1/22/2007 11:48:30 AM , Rating: 5
U.S. Tank: M1A1 Abrams
- best tank for tank on tank or tank on stationary target warfare
- Not good in close quarters or against infantry (most tanks aren't, I think a handful of Israeli tanks are considered better in close quarters)

U.S. Planes: F-22, JSF.
- Best fighters, most advanced technologically
- Has competition from Russian prototype aircraft

Ships: Ohio class submarines, aircraft carriers, AEGIS cruisers . . .
- No other country has aircraft carriers near the size/power of the US aircraft carriers
- Only Russian Typhoon class has the nuclear projection power of the Ohio class.
- No competition except maybe a few Russian prototype subs
- AEGIS cruisers have been sold to allies such as Japan.

Quit bull****ing. The US has the #1 military in terms of technology. The US also has the best military because its training of soldiers is very high but the training is not #1 (behind to Israel and maybe a few other countries).


RE: this is why i love america
By Smurfer2 on 1/22/2007 11:57:07 AM , Rating: 2
Stromgald, I think in principle you are right.

The U.S. M1A2 is arguably second best to the Challenger 2. Though that depends on who you ask. It definently has a better gun though.

U.S. planes have some competition for sure. I wouldn't say we have the best. (Iran has F-14s, which I believe are a better air superiority fighter then the JSF)Some of the no longer prototype Russian aircraft can be seen as better. Though crew quality and numbers makes them a moot point

Just expanding, hope ya don't mind.


RE: this is why i love america
By masher2 (blog) on 1/22/2007 12:00:40 PM , Rating: 3
> "U.S. planes have some competition for sure. I wouldn't say we have the best. (Iran has F-14s..."

Those F-14's ARE US planes...and Iran can't even field them, due to lack of parts and maintenance.


RE: this is why i love america
By hubajube on 1/22/2007 12:04:20 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Those F-14's ARE US planes...and Iran can't even field them, due to lack of parts and maintenance.
Not to mention those F-14's don't have all the goodies that the US versions have.


RE: this is why i love america
By Martin Blank on 1/22/2007 2:47:04 PM , Rating: 3
Iranian F-14s were shipped with AWG-9 radars and Phoenix missiles. The viability of the Phoenix missiles may be in doubt, but Iranian Tomcats do fly, and they have been photographed relatively recently with Phoenix missiles slung underneath. They're not as up-to-date as the US Tomcats were before their retirement, but they're certainly still a viable threat at range. In a war situation, they're probably the biggest threat to AWACS aircraft, since even the earliest Phoenix missiles had home-on-jam capabilities, and demonstrated strikes on targets out to 75 miles or more.


RE: this is why i love america
By mezman on 1/22/2007 3:22:33 PM , Rating: 2
Correct. The Iranian F-14s were 1970's versions and were stripped down at the time. The F-14 was continually upgraded for the next 25 years here in the United States while the Iranian F-14's gathered dust. Their F-14's don't offer a threat to modern US warplanes.


RE: this is why i love america
By stromgald on 1/22/2007 3:03:38 PM , Rating: 2
Acutally, the F-14 and JSF aren't in the same class. The F-14 is air superiority and is being replaced by the F/A-18 E/F Super Hornet. The JSF is in the "light-weight fighter" class and replaces the F/A-18 A/B/C/D Hornet and various other small attack/utility aircraft the Navy has. With the new avionics and better manuverability of the F/A-18 E/F and JSF, I'd pick that over an F-14 any day (even US versions). The F-14 just has a higher top speed.

The Challenger 2 is very similar to the M1A2, but the Abrams has a higher top speed and a longer range gun, and with the insane accuracy of modern tanks, that speed + range = kill about 80% of the time.

The main weakness of both tanks is that they were designed mostly for tank on tank long range warfare. Close quarters like around buildings causes serious problems for both tanks. I think the Israeli Merkava is considered the best in guerrilla warfare, which is becoming more and more common.



By rippleyaliens on 1/26/2007 11:21:57 AM , Rating: 2
Actually, alot of people here are wrong. The weapon system, is only a small percentage of what the weapon is capabile of doing. Take the F14 Tomcat. the thing is over 30 years old, YET, 1- Upgrades to avionics, Newer weapon platforms. BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY. The training around it. American pilots are some of the best trained out there. REASON= Easy, the United states can afford to send pilots up, and up, and up.. Isreal pilots are excellent, be that country cannot afford to put them in the air, like we can.

M1-Tank. Is by all means, the very BEST on teh planet. 1 on 1, versus a leopard, or isreali tank, well, i would say, the latter. BUT a M1- Platoon, with their support gear=unstoppable, within its weapons envelope.

The Russian t-80 and latter, are actually supperior TANKS, look up Fort ORD, the aggressor teams. Those guys hardly ever lost, BUT in Iraq, desert storm, it was a totally different story. Reason= Again, Training.Training, Training.

I personally can out shoot alot of Police officers, and i regulary do, at the range. Why, easy, when i was in Marines, i shot thousands upon thousands or rounds of pistol / SMG (hk mp5) rounds. YET, i will get spanked by some Seal guys. Because HE shot 10's of thousands of rounds. Training always makes the difference in War.
Helicopters, same thing. US can afford, to have their pilots in the air, training 3x4 times, the next best military, honing their skills, learning the hardware..

Training


RE: this is why i love america
By ralith on 1/22/2007 6:05:42 PM , Rating: 2
Ummm, the F-22 seems to have been forgotten here. It was designed as a air superiority fighter, and I'm pretty sure it'd kick the sh*t out of anything out there including 30+ year old F-14s.


RE: this is why i love america
By stromgald on 1/22/2007 8:07:46 PM , Rating: 2
Well, the F-14 is navy. The F-22 can't take off an aircraft carrier like the JSF can. There is one aircraft that might challenge the F/A-22 and that's the Russian Su-47, but that's an experimental aircraft and hasn't entered production.


RE: this is why i love america
By Locutus465 on 1/22/2007 8:30:13 PM , Rating: 2
As big a fan as I am of the F-14 (a U.S. plan as others have already pointed out) I have a high degree of confidence that the F-22 would *always* come out superior, and that it would have a tough time against the JSF as it is also stealthy which is problematic for the tom cat's greatest strength, it's radar.


RE: this is why i love america
By Mclendo06 on 1/29/2007 12:26:38 AM , Rating: 2
I sure would like to see those F-14's trying to get their fancy 1970's radars to lock onto an incoming flight of stealthy Joint Strike Fighters. If they got in behind them then maybe they would have a chance. The stealth characteristics of US aircraft are rather closely guarded but I see the tail end of a JSF being its most vulnerable point. The F-14 is designed to be an interceptor, though, and in the head-to-head type situation it was originally designed for, I doubt it would fare well at all against any stealth aircraft.

As far as aircraft go in general, the US is a full generation ahead of any other country with regards to production aircraft. The US is the only country with 5th generation fighter aircraft in production, those being the F-22 and the F-35. Also, if Iran is able to fly their limited F-14 fleet, their pilots, who have likely gotten flying time in F-14s totaling in the tens of hours at best, would pretty much just be flying to their deaths against American Pilots who have multiple thousands of hours of training time in jet fighter aircraft, many of those hours in the very aircraft they are going to combat in. If there are any Iranian pilots reading this post, I suggest that in case of war with the USA, you learn the word "Asylum", jettison your weapons, and fly your 1st/2nd/3rd generation fighter to the nearest America-friendly airbase you can find before some F-22 your radar can't even pick up ruins your day by sticking an AMRAAM up your tailpipe.


RE: this is why i love america
By alcalde on 1/23/2007 1:03:35 AM , Rating: 3
You're discussing platforms but not ordinance. We're behind the Russians in supercavitating torpedoes (shkval - probably 200 knots +) and anti-ship missiles (Sunburn supersonic missile).

And I disagree with the statement about the only submarine competition are Russian prototype subs. The Akula II is not a prototype sub. Also, the Sunburn was designed to deal with AEGIS....

http://www.rense.com/general59/theSunburniransawes...


RE: this is why i love america
By Sahrin on 1/23/2007 11:42:42 AM , Rating: 2
I would put a Sea Wolf against any Sov/Russian sub, including Akula-series subs, Typhoon - anything. Not the sissy watered down Virginias, but a true Sea Wolf.

Understand, that a lot has to do with the quality and ingenuity of the crew (most submarines have the same basic "skillset") - so put "Marko Ramius" against "gilligan" and you've got a red-flag winner every time - but equal crews, I'd rather be in a Sea Wolf. The Russians build great hardware, very durable, with 'different' kinds of ideas - but I think America's strength is that when it gets serious about a piece of hardware (Sea Wolf, SuperNimitz, F-22, SR-71, Ohio, B-2B, M1A1, Aegis, Commanche) that hardware is incredible. People knock the DoD for cost overruns, but to me - it's an R&D investment, it's going to balloon because you're inventing the science.

But to sum up, Sea Wolf > Aging North Sea Fleet and a submarine development program on Welfare. (OR the Russian equivalent. Welfarskiy).


RE: this is why i love america
By stromgald on 1/23/2007 11:46:17 AM , Rating: 2
I'm not sure about the Sunbeam missile, but for submarines, the U.S. is still on top IMO. The Akula II is slightly better than the Los Angeles class US attack subs. But as far as I know, there have only been 2-4 built. The US has about as many SeaWolf attack subs and twice as many Virginia class subs. Both were designed to replace the LA class, but exact capabilities are sketchy compared to what's known of the Akula II. Nevertheless, I'd bet on either of those two over the Akula II in a fight.

I'm more confident on the U.S. continuing to build and refine the new Virginia class than I am of Russia having the money to continue their Akula II program.


RE: this is why i love america
By Fibbly on 1/24/2007 8:06:51 AM , Rating: 3
quote:
U.S. Tank: M1A1 Abrams - best tank for tank on tank or tank on stationary target warfare - Not good in close quarters or against infantry (most tanks aren't, I think a handful of Israeli tanks are considered better in close quarters)


Check your facts and dont go by what you see when you play BF2...

If anything, you should be talking about the M1A2 Abrams. However, what makes the M1A2 inferior to other tanks such as the german Leopard 2 A6 or the russian T90 is logistics. The M1A2 for example needs almost twice the amount of fuel as the Leopard 2 A6, while the firepower is almost the same (the M1A2 uses the 120mm german Rheinmetall L44 smoothbore gun (called M256 in the US military) while the Leopard is equipped with a 120mm smoothbore L55 gun, which is a bit longer than the L44 and thus has a higher range), the armor is comparable, whereas the M1A2 has a slight protection advantage against RPGs, the Leopards protection against kinetic projectiles (tank vs. tank warfare) is better.

There are good reasons why many countries prefer the Leopard over the Abrams. So, no, the Abrams is not the hands down best MBT out there.

quote:
U.S. Planes: F-22, JSF. - Best fighters, most advanced technologically - Has competition from Russian prototype aircraft


Again, dont play games, get yourself educated with real facts. See this link for a brief summary by a US AF general who flew both the F-22 and the Eurofighter Typhoon. And dont miss the line where he says, they're neck-to-neck in aircombat performance. But their roles are also difficult to compare.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/new...

Not to mention the superior maneuverability of the Sukhoi Su-30 MKI with its two-dimensional thrust vectoring.

Again, no, the F-22 is not the hands down best plane out there. Its best in some roles, but not in all.

quote:
Ships: Ohio class submarines, aircraft carriers, AEGIS cruisers . . . - No other country has aircraft carriers near the size/power of the US aircraft carriers - Only Russian Typhoon class has the nuclear projection power of the Ohio class. - No competition except maybe a few Russian prototype subs - AEGIS cruisers have been sold to allies such as Japan.


And once again you display your lack of knowledge by throwing in nuclear weapons platforms such as the ohio class SSBN's and the russian counterparts. These weapon platforms serve a unique purpose and have never been used in active combat - lets hope it will never happen. If you want to include submarines, use the Los Angeles class attack submarines, for they are used in conventional warfare. And compare them to the norwegian, russian and german attack submarines. The german U31 for example is the first of its kind with a fuelcell propulsion system, giving this boat virtually the same combat flexibility as the los angeles class, at smaller size and even more silent operation levels - guess why the israeli navy is looking to buy that boat from the germans. The norwegians developed a similar submarine. Just because it doesnt have a nuclear reactor, doesnt mean its inferior.

There is no doubt that the american supercarriers are the biggest and best aircraft carriers. Its a "luxury" not every country can or wants to afford. As far as destroyers and cruisers go, the US navy is quite a bit behind other countries when it comes to stealth technology for surface ships. Sweden, France, Germany, India, Britain and even Singapore already deployed surface ships with stealth characteristics, while the US DD(X) also known as Sea Shadow is still in development. Other than that, america and its allies often use the same weapon systems on their ships, of which not all are made in america.

Again, the US navy is positively the strongest navy on this planet due to its size and combination of hardware. This does, however, not mean all of the hardware is superior to any other vessel.

I want to close this by asking you to quit talking out of your ass about things you obviously have no fucking clue about.


RE: this is why i love america
By fxnick on 1/22/2007 10:40:05 PM , Rating: 1
stop being so anti-american like ABC


RE: this is why i love america
By Felofasofa on 1/22/2007 6:14:20 AM , Rating: 2
Metal Storm is some of the hottest tech around (guns that can fire a million rounds per second and no moving parts) and was invented by a Green Grocer from Brisbane! Chinese thought it was so hot they tried to buy lock stock and barrel.

http://www.metalstorm.com/


RE: this is why i love america
By mamisano on 1/22/2007 10:06:42 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, saw this on TLC's FutureWeapons about 2 weeks ago... I was in awe!


RE: this is why i love america
By drank12quartsstrohsbeer on 1/22/2007 10:35:35 AM , Rating: 2
After you get over the impressive numbers and look at how Metal Storm works, you'll discover that is has only a very limited practical use. The metal storm company is very good at marketing, but thier technology is a little weak.


RE: this is why i love america
By noxipoo on 1/24/2007 1:09:20 PM , Rating: 2
care to explain it in detail? like why it's not practical? i'm not being sarcastic, i'm interested.


RE: this is why i love america
By Arthur on 1/22/07, Rating: -1
RE: this is why i love america
By zsdersw on 1/22/07, Rating: -1
RE: this is why i love america
By otispunkmeyer on 1/22/07, Rating: -1
RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/22/2007 8:57:31 AM , Rating: 1
Surely you Europeans know that if it weren't for warfare and the superiority of the American military, all of you would be speaking German right now.

70 years ago the disease was the Nazis, now it's Islam. Islam requires its followers to convert, subjugate or kill all unbelievers. That you and me pal. They've made quite a bit of headway in Europe, without a doubt. Look at the rioting muslim youths in France recently.

America is at war in the Middle East not for oil, but to protect ourselves and the rest of the West from this scourge of a religion called Islam.

If any of you believe Islam is a religion of peace and America is just making all this up, do a google search for 'Undercover mosque' to find the work Channel 4 in the UK did. They went undercover in a mosque to find out what the imams were saying when they thought no westerners were listenting. It's frightening.

Good day.


RE: this is why i love america
By Merry on 1/22/2007 9:34:43 AM , Rating: 5
Surely you Europeans know that if it weren't for warfare and the superiority of the American military, all of you would be speaking German right now.

I think Britain not caving in in the first place also helped.

70 years ago the disease was the Nazis, now it's Islam

Thats a wee bit harsh. There are moderate Muslims, you know. Its like tagging the Christian Right as a disease and then automatically assuming all other Christians are the same.

America is at war in the Middle East not for oil, but to protect ourselves and the rest of the West from this scourge of a religion called Islam.

You cant believe that, surely. I dont care that its about oil, really i dont, but it has nothing to do with terrorism and even if it did its pretty obvious it was entirely the wrong strategy. The way I see it was Afghanistan was about terrorism, Iraq was about oil.

If any of you believe Islam is a religion of peace and America is just making all this up, do a google search for 'Undercover mosque' to find the work Channel 4 in the UK did. They went undercover in a mosque to find out what the imams were saying when they thought no westerners were listenting. It's frightening.

What some were saying, not all. Its like labeling half of the Irish population as terrorists, and hell they've killed more people in the UK then any other terrorist organisation.


I think the key here is not to place blame upon single religions as a whole entity. It is clear that it is a minority that is responsible for terrorist actions, which, quite frankly pale into insignificance in terms of lives lost when compared to conventional war, or indeed other non Muslim terrorist groups' campaigns'. I know that doesn't mean much for those who have lost people to such actions, but its unbalanced responses to such actions that escalates the situation, leading to more people getting killed. The way America is acting with regard to its foreign policy now is an open invitation for pissed off muslims (possibly because of a number of social factors) to join extremist groups, therefore perhaps the key to stop terrorism is to look at the root social causes of it, avoiding bringing religion into it.


RE: this is why i love america
By The Sword 88 on 1/22/2007 10:27:11 AM , Rating: 1
I think Britain not caving in in the first place also helped
The victory is owed to the US and to Britain

Thats a wee bit harsh. There are moderate Muslims, you know. Its like tagging the Christian Right as a disease and then automatically assuming all other Christians are the same.

How many Christian extremists are blowing themselves up because of it. There are some and they stain the reputation of the rest of us Christians but they are many more radical and violent Muslims.

You cant believe that, surely. I dont care that its about oil, really i dont, but it has nothing to do with terrorism and even if it did its pretty obvious it was entirely the wrong strategy. The way I see it was Afghanistan was about terrorism, Iraq was about oil.

I agree about the entirely wrong strategy. That would be one of the reasons Bush lost my support

What some were saying, not all. Its like labeling half of the Irish population as terrorists, and hell they've killed more people in the UK then any other terrorist organisation.

The IRA were terrorists and there are still terrorists in Ireland.



I think the key here is not to place blame upon single religions as a whole entity. It is clear that it is a minority that is responsible for terrorist actions, which, quite frankly pale into insignificance in terms of lives lost when compared to conventional war, or indeed other non Muslim terrorist groups' campaigns'. I know that doesn't mean much for those who have lost people to such actions, but its unbalanced responses to such actions that escalates the situation, leading to more people getting killed. The way America is acting with regard to its foreign policy now is an open invitation for pissed off muslims (possibly because of a number of social factors) to join extremist groups, therefore perhaps the key to stop terrorism is to look at the root social causes of it, avoiding bringing religion into it.

Less people have been killed in Iraq during the war than were under Sadaam. Religion is the reason for these wars. Muslims have been trying to covert or kill Christians since the 5th century when the first Islamic expansion happened adn the hatred increased with the crusades and now it is happening again.


RE: this is why i love america
By dubldwn on 1/22/2007 12:28:39 PM , Rating: 3
Islam appeared in the 7th Century - just an FYI.


RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/22/2007 1:14:08 PM , Rating: 1
As another FYI, muslims and other muslim apologists point to the Crusades as evidene of Christian aggression against Muslims. This is false. The Crusades were a delayed response to hundreds of years of muslims conquering Christian lands. The Crusades were not entirely successful though. Also, muslims believe that if they have ever occupied a piece of land (by conquering or other means) then that land is permanently muslim land.


RE: this is why i love america
By Locutus465 on 1/22/2007 8:45:49 PM , Rating: 3
Yeah, perhaps the first one. And that was at the behests of the Byzantian Emperor who claimed Christian pilgrams were being targeted be muslims which to my knowlege history has juged to not be the case. Then there were 5 more crusades which were really more about gaining eastern wealth and knowledge (Europe was so backwards at the time), 1 crusade which was about kidnapping childeren and selling them as slaves, and 1 which was about buring and pilliging Constantinople (boy I bet they were sorry they asked for W. Europe's help).

But in the end, this all started what, 800 years ago? Seriously, how long are the extreamests going to try and hold this as justification for what they claim to be a "holy" quest. There is no Christian alive who committed any of the atrocities durring the cursades, and no muslum alive who suffered because of it. Time to move on.


RE: this is why i love america
By 8NP4iN on 1/23/2007 8:51:07 PM , Rating: 2
Man, religion sucks...
I just believe in god... this nonsense of alcoran and bible... its all bullshit...a bunch of guys who say that they are messenger of god or have been visited bla bla bla...cmon
religion is the number one reason for killing in the world...
europe wiped out the new world population and conquered most of the world with excuse of religion...
its all fucking bullshit...wars are fought for 3 reasons, money, religion, and power...and its all goes down to power, cause power gives you acess to everything else.
im a free mind


RE: this is why i love america
By Locutus465 on 1/22/2007 8:37:44 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
The victory is owed to the US and to Britain


What about russia? I'm american, but credit must go where it is due... They broke Germany's back.


RE: this is why i love america
By Pirks on 1/22/2007 10:22:31 PM , Rating: 1
hey Locutus, you're one of the very rare americans who know the real stuff about WWII, congrats! let's see if some other smart people appear here... I bet masher knows this as well, anyone else?


RE: this is why i love america
By Ratwar on 1/23/2007 12:16:35 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah, the Russians did a lot, but I wouldn't say that the British and American contributions were in any way small. Just the distraction of the two/three front war (if you count Italy) hurt Germany, not to mention the heavy bombing that destroyed much of the German industrial sector. Plus the US sent plenty of supplies to the Russians over the course of the war.

Another important point is that there was a whole war fought in the Pacific that the Russians didn't enter until the end of the war.

All in all, I'd say the greatest contributor to the defeat of Germany was probably the Russian Winter.


RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/23/2007 9:52:16 AM , Rating: 2
yeah you aren't kidding. Those Russians were some tough SOBs. It's too bad there was a land grab power stuggle after the war.


RE: this is why i love america
By tigen on 1/24/2007 7:10:20 PM , Rating: 3
That's the funny thing. The Soviets were no better than the Nazis. They grabbed land from Finland and Poland etc. and turned all the eastern countries into vassal puppet states, and forced mass migrations of civilians. They put millions of people in concentration camps and "penal colonies". Stalin was a megalomaniac in the same class as Hitler, and the initial invasion of Poland was shared by Stalin. but Britain and France ignored that.

The only reason they stopped where they did was the atom bomb.


RE: this is why i love america
By Pirks on 1/22/2007 10:20:39 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
The victory is owed to the US and to Britain
Oh, and I thought it was Russian Red Army who was fighting and defeating Germans from 1941 to 1945 with a little help of US and Brits very late in the war, circa 1944. Poor me, gotta go read some history books. Well, that if masher doesn't say his word here. Masher, any comments on that? ;)


RE: this is why i love america
By masher2 (blog) on 1/23/2007 12:05:06 AM , Rating: 2
The fact is, without the the British, the Americans, or the Soviets, the Allies would have been defeated. That goes without saying, for any student of the period. However, I think the basis for the OP's post is that US troops did their fighting entirely upon foreign soil, defending foreign nations.


By Hoser McMoose on 1/23/2007 4:36:37 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
How many Christian extremists are blowing themselves up because of it. There are some and they stain the reputation of the rest of us Christians but they are many more radical and violent Muslims.


Christians of various stripes have had more then their fair share of violence perpetrated in the name of their religion. From the Crusades, though the Spanish Inquisition, conquering the Pagans through much of Europe and right up to the Troubles in Northern Ireland and Timothy McVeigh (a devote Roman Catholic who committed the second-worst terrorist act in the US, after Sept. 11), just to name a few. Right now they might be in a period of relatively low activity, but if you think that terrorism and wars are purely a Muslim phenomena then I would say that you're gravely mistaken. Even suicide bombings are not a Muslim-exclusive, though they are often portrayed as such. The Tamil Tigers were probably the first to popularize the modern suicide bombings, and the Tamil people are a mix of Muslim, Hindu and Christians.

Pretty much all religions have had atrocities committed in their name, and almost to a one those atrocities were in direct violation of the teachings of those religions (as is the case with the current Muslim terrorists). Political leaders, under many guises, have a VERY long history of subverting religions for their own goals.

quote:
The IRA were terrorists and there are still terrorists in Ireland.


The number of terrorists left in Northern Ireland could probably be counted on one hand. The former IRA, UDA/UFF, et. al. have pretty much all disbanded their political and religious fighting. What's left now could more accurately be described as "gangs" and these days most of the killings and bombings are more related to organized crime than anything else.

quote:
Muslims have been trying to covert or kill Christians since the 5th century when the first Islamic expansion happened adn the hatred increased with the crusades and now it is happening again.


Err.. how exactly did Muslims try and kill or convert Christians since before Muslims themselves existed?! And painting this as a one-sided thing is just completely inaccurate. Muslims fought Christians, Christians fought Muslims, they both fought the Jews and all have fought among themselves. In almost all the cases, right up to the current things happening today in Iraq, Afghanistan, Israel and beyond, religion is only one aspect of things. Power and politics are almost always intermixed with religion. After all, you never see the Priests, Ministers, Imams or Rabbi's, or politicians for that matter, fighting out on the front lines, it's always the soldiers that take orders from these people.

The fact of the matter is that there are some 1.4 billion Muslims on the planet today (give or take a few million). The number of those that are terrorists (a term that is open to HUGE interpretation) is SIGNIFICANTLY less than 1%.


RE: this is why i love america
By Grast on 1/22/2007 10:56:06 AM , Rating: 1
Merry,

While it is true we are at war with the Middle East, I believe the whole Iraq war was based on the idea that if freedom was given a chance. We would be able to establish a democracy in the Middle East and contain the terrorist to that side of the world. It was a good idea however naive but still a good idea.

Ok now, we were wrong. The people of Iraq do not want freedom or peace just to continue their religious wars against each other. I have accepted that as a reality. Bush made a mistake in that matter. The bigger mistake and the one which basically remove my support for him was his lack of ability/willingness to change the course and develop a new strategy. A new strategy which would remove our troops while still containing the mess in Iraq.

I agree with the previous poster in that Islam is our enemy. Maybe not all of Islam but enough to make targeting the bad people difficult. I am also forced to look at history to help in my opinions. While not all followers of Islam are trying to kill me, these people are still helping the ones that are trying to kill me by doing nothing. This is similar to WWII in Germany. The Germans which did not fight the Nazis and simply went along with the program were just as guilty as the Nazi's. History shows they suffered just as much or more than the Nazi’s.

This leads me to my main point. If the peace loving Muslims wish to stop this slippery slope, they need to start help and get off the side lines. Otherwise they will be most likely in the end be held as just as responsible as the hard-line Muslims.

I believe at this time. Muslims have received a reprieve from America. If another or more vicious attack occurs on U.S. soil again, I believe the Muslims of the world will regret that day. I am not like Israel. I will not set idly by and let people attack and kill my country. I would soon as expel all immigrants and declare war on all Muslims states. I would then use all of these high-tech weapons at our disposal.

I know this aggressive. But again, I am not an Israeli willing to sit by and let Muslims bomb and attack my country. Unlike other people, I will hold a grudge and will show no mercy………

End of Rant.


RE: this is why i love america
By TheDoc9 on 1/23/2007 5:52:19 PM , Rating: 2
It's too bad your rant got a -1, I agree with it to an extent. Unfortunately you can't really come out and say something like that on a board dominated by liberal secular progressives. Not without sounding crazy by them, their opinion, as much as it actually matters(none).

I'm remembering something a famous businessman said - "opinions are the cheapest commodities on earth, everyone has a flock of opinions that they will readily wish on anyone who will accept them"

Having said that I believe there should be a balance. It’s obvious to me that standing up for oneself is the ONLY way to get anywhere in life – this is easily a metaphor for a country being attacked. As in a country that protects itself survives and thrives. It’s unfortunate that brainwashing left tv and the short span of people memory (sept. 11th) allows people to easily justify being so docile in our efforts towards those that would like nothing less than to knock us down and take our place.


RE: this is why i love america
By InsaneGain on 1/26/2007 2:20:50 PM , Rating: 2
I often hear about this theory that the United States is in Iraq "to grab all of the oil", and people readily accept it as truth. How exactly is the U.S. getting this oil? Are they getting it for below market prices? Are they secretly filling hundreds of container ships with oil for free and shipping it to the homeland? Who exactly is taking possession of this oil? Is the U.S. making a profit from said oil after taking into account the expenses of the war?


RE: this is why i love america
By mino on 1/22/2007 9:59:08 AM , Rating: 2
more probably russian than German.

Also, FYI the french riots had pretty much nothing to do with Islam.


RE: this is why i love america
By rushfan2006 on 1/22/07, Rating: -1
RE: this is why i love america
By patentman on 1/22/07, Rating: -1
RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/22/2007 1:08:54 PM , Rating: 5
Rushfan2006,

What did I say that makes me an asshole? Everything I said was absolutely true, except that I left out Britain's role in defeating the Nazis. Read up on the origins of Islam and life of Mohammed. You will come to see (but probably not embrace) that it's the moderate muslims that are not practicing true islam, not the jihadists. The jihadists are perfectly emulating the life of Mohammed (their perfect model of behavior)and they aim to run the entire planet under Sharia law. Islam is only a peaceful religion after they have conquered you. Until then, their highest responsibility from Allah is jihad.

Islam is spreading, and if you think they want to live in peace with their neighbors you are sadly mistaken. Look around the world anywhere a muslim state borders a non-muslim state. There is constant strife caused by the muslims, but they portray themselves as the hapless victims of oppression. Muslims may live for a time under a democracy, but they are commanded to dismantle it once their numbers are sufficient. They are very patient. They are willing to take hundreds of years to conquer a piece of land. One reason they've been so successful in making their case as victims is that Islam allows lying, cheating and stealing as long as it advances Islam. This is absolute fact. Mohammed himself said "War is deceit".

I assure you, I'm no asshole. I'm a regular college educated, married guy with 3 kids and a great job who became concerned with what is going on in the world. I took it upon myself to learn what these muslim are thinking. After much research and learning from frightening facts, I came to understand what is going on. Dude, it is effing scary how most countries, the UN, etc are turning a blind eye to the spread of Islam.

Do you wonder why the terrorists like to behead people? They are emulating their prophet Mohammed, who said "When you meet an unbeliever on the battlefield, smite their necks". And the battlefield is anywhere they encounter you and you refuse to convert or live as virtual slaves under Sharia law.


RE: this is why i love america
By Merry on 1/22/2007 2:06:33 PM , Rating: 3
Whilst i disagreed with your original argument I also dont think it was fair to call you an arsehole.

I think what it boils down to is the fact that we all have different experiences regarding Muslims, I dont know whether you deal a lot with people of that faith, however I come across them everyday doing ordinary things such as running the corner shop or going about there daily business. It is because of this that I, personally cant label them all as my enemy, this simply is not the case, however, others may beg to differ due to different experiences of such people.


RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/22/2007 2:13:51 PM , Rating: 3
Merry,

I see your point of view completely, and I didn't mean to label the nice guy running the 7-11 down on the corner the enemy. There are plenty of people that call themselves muslims and they're fine to live next door to a Christian the rest of their life. But if you do the research, you will see what true Islam is about. It's continually covered up and glossed over in the media. You have to go beyond that and do the research yourself.

I don't come in contact with many muslims. But I do read and research what is going on in the world.


RE: this is why i love america
By Pirks on 1/22/2007 10:36:02 PM , Rating: 2
Tellinda, I lived with Arabs as my roommates for several years in university here in Canada, and found nothing like this beheading stuff and total conversion of everything to Islam etc etc. On the other hand I happen to know one funny Polish taxi cab driver here, and he's absolutely crazy about jews, he'd kill all jews in the world if he could just becuase he hates jews. Much like Nazi in Germany in 1930s. So in fact it boils down to individuals - not all Muslims are terrorists, not all Poles hate jews and not all Russians are Communists (this one you can trust me on - I'm from Russia myself). I know Islam is spreading, but so is Christianity - I've been bugged by all sorts of crazy Christians willing to convert me to their faith MUCH more often by any Muslims. And speaking of Muslim countries attacking neighbors - that's pretty fucked up shit, I have yet to see a single Muslim country that attacked its neighbor just to convert them to Islam. You obviously mixing up zealots with normal people. Here, here, I'll tell you one more shocking revelation - NOT ALL Mac users are fuckheads and zealots. Really, really - I know a lot of them and maybe one or two guys are crazy fanatics that really worship Jobs, everyone else is 100% normal, just using Mac because they like it (they usually have Windows PC as well, 'cause they like to have best from both worlds) --- Same for everyone else. My life experience tells me that zealots are always a minority. They cause all the trouble but they are NOT the people. They are just sick perverts with damaged brains, we should in fact treat them and help them - this is medical condition, you know


RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/23/2007 9:42:28 AM , Rating: 2
I did not intend to paint all muslims as terrorists. They aren't. The fact remains that Islam is a violent religion, Christianity is not. Look what happened when the pope quote a Byzantine ruler about the Islam being a violent religion or whatever. How did muslims around the world react? They went nucking futs with violence and called for his head. Doesn't anyone see this as ironic?

quote:
And speaking of Muslim countries attacking neighbors - that's pretty fucked up shit, I have yet to see a single Muslim country that attacked its neighbor just to convert them to Islam.

I never said that they attack another country only to convert them. Look around at every shooting war around the world. Muslims are involved. It's very simple if you read the Q'uran and any true history of Mohammed. Muslims are commanded by Allah to slay unbelievers. They liken jews to pigs and monkeys. It's all there for anyone to read. The hadiths (customs of Mohammed) are chock full of sick twisted behavior by this perfect model of behavior. Ordering the slaughter of innocents, ordering the assasination of his detractors, polygamy, sex with slaves, and this little gem of perfect behavior: Mohammed took a 6 year old wife, Aisha, and popped her cherry when she was 9. She was his favorite wife. You don't hear about these things in the media and from other apologists for Islam. Never. So they never have to defend Mohammed's actions, they are never called to account.

What is really transparent about Mohammed and his 'revelations' from Allah is this; time and time again when Mohammed was in a situation, he magically received a revelation from Allah to satisfy his own personal desires or to fix some sticky situation. It's freaking hilarious. Most muslims don't know what is in the Q'uran and and they can only recite the verses that are positive and uplifting. there are many accounts of muslims looking closer at a translation of the Q'uran and being quite disgusted so they became apostates. Oh speaking of apostates, under Sharia law, the penalty for converting away from Islam is death! Anyone care to defend that? Sharia law is the governmental system under Islam and it is the highest law to a true muslim. Somebody please tell me that I'm full of crap, there's no such thing as Sharia law and that muslims don't want to spread it all over the globe. Give me some facts, maybe some reassurance from some imams that I'm wrong.

The mosques in Anytown, USA don't teach the violent parts of the Q'uran as far as we know. The UK however, is diffent. Wahhabism is making huge advances in Europe due to the pacifism of France and other countries there.

Muslims won't tell you that Mohammed was a thief, not a common thief, but an exceptionally good one. His band of thugs would attack caravans, killing all the men, raping the women and keeping them as slaves. Then when it came time to split up the booty, Mohammed would once again get a magical revelation that God's Messenger is to get 1/2 the booty. Hey! I'm God's messenger! I guess that means I get 1/2 the booty! Hey that guy is still alive, cut off his head! Other times they would spare the lives of those they conquered if they converted to Islam or they would make a pact where those conquered would live as dhimmis, the lowest class of citizen. The dhimmis were another source of income for the muslim societies. They were forced to pay a poll tax. This was one of the 3 choices they had: Conversion, dhimmitude or death.

Another great thing about Islam is how they treat women. They'll tell you that women are held in the highest regard in muslim society. Under Sharia law, if a woman accuses a man of rape, she must provide like 4 male witnesses to back her up. If she can't provide witnesses, she has admitted to adultery and will be stoned to death. Mohammed's child-wife, whose cherry was popped by Mohammed at age 9, said (paraphrasing)"No one has suffered more that the muslim woman". I've said this before in another post: A few years ago (I think) Saudi virtue police prevented 15 schoolgirls from escaping a buring building because they didn't have on their proper Islamic dress. The 15 girls died, were burned to death, because they couldn't be seen in public without their scarves. These people aren't the radicals shooting up Iraq. This is the police force in Saudi Arabia. Somebody please defend these muslims. Let's hear it. "Oh they are extremists, I know a white police office that would do the same thing at a black school".

There is so much more about the beginnings of Islam and this isn't the forum for it. I welcome any rebuttals though, someone tell me I'm wrong here.

But most people won't ever hear any of these facts anywhere unless you seek the truth yourselves.


RE: this is why i love america
By masher2 (blog) on 1/23/2007 10:14:39 AM , Rating: 2
> "Islam is a violent religion...Another great thing about Islam is how they treat women..."

A few quotes from your Christian Bible:

quote:
And the men of Israel turned against the Benjaminites, and killed them all by the sword, the men of every city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon: also they set on fire all the cities that they came to ....
Judges 20:48

quote:
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate and he shall destroy the sinners...Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one shall fall by the sword... Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished ....
Isaiah 13:9-15

quote:
Jephthah made a vow to the LORD. He said, "If you give me victory over the Ammonites, I will give to the LORD the first thing coming out of my house to greet me when I return in triumph. I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering. So Jephthah led his army against the Ammonites, and the LORD gave him victory...When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter – his only child – ran out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy.... and her father kept his vow, and she died a virgin ...
Judges 11:29-40

quote:
A priest's daughter who loses her honor by committing fornication and thereby dishonors her father also, shall be burned to death ...
Lev. 21:9

quote:
Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of [the city of unbelievers] with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein , and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword...
Deut 13:15

quote:
Make ready to slaughter the sons for the guilt of their fathers ; Lest they rise and posses the earth...
Isaiah 14:21

quote:
Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death . Such evil must be purged...
Deut 7:12

quote:
When the LORD your God hands these nations over to you and you conquer them, you must completely destroy them. Make no treaties with them and show them no mercy . Do not intermarry with them, and don't let your daughters and sons marry their sons and daughters. They will lead your young people away from me to worship other gods. Then the anger of the LORD will burn against you, and he will destroy you...
Deut 7:1-4

quote:
I will fill the mountains with slain men : in thy hills, and in thy valleys, and in all thy rivers, shall they fall that are slain with the sword. I will make thee perpetual desolations, and thy cities shall not return: and ye shall know that I am the LORD ...
Ezekial 35:7-9


RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/23/2007 1:15:53 PM , Rating: 2
Masher2,

This is an excellent point and I'm glad you brought it up. It even further makes my point about the differences between Islam and any other religion in the world.

How much of the narrative in your examples do we see in Christianity today, or even in the past 1000 years? ZERO. Show me where Christians treat women a certain way based on the religious texts. We don't stone our women for being raped. We don't behead little Christian school girls walking to school like muslims do, we don't shoot children in the back as they try to escape the school that was taken hostage in Beslan. Muslims did that! For the sake of being a muslim. Not because they were pissed at the school board.

You won't find that Jesus preached any of what happened thousands of years before he came. Those people weren't Christians. All of these books were written before the time of Christ. We are talking about Christianity here. Show me some verses where Jesus murdered, raped, screwed 9 year old girls, pillaged, assassinated, and on and on. You won't find any. Now look at Mohammed. Mohammed never performed ANY miracles. He made up a whole hell of a lot of stuff as he went along, receiving revelations when he needed one. When his new religion didn't grow past a few hundred people, he started spreading it by violence and force and it continued until his death. It's laughable to defend him as a 'perfect model of behavior'.

One of you muslim apologists pipe up here and tell me where I'm wrong and where Mohammed didn't do these things.

Hey also show me some verses where Jesus spoke the words of Satan himself. Ooops he never did that, Mohammed did. This is the infamous 'Satanic Verses' that muslims want to hide so badly and that's why Salman Rushdie has a price on his head.

Your argument is so thin. Provide some proof that Islam is a religion of peace and tranquility, serving mankind.


RE: this is why i love america
By masher2 (blog) on 1/23/2007 1:56:57 PM , Rating: 2
> "How much of the narrative in your examples do we see in Christianity today, or even in the past 1000 years? ZERO. "

Zero? Err, it was less than 500 years ago that the St. Bartholomew's Day massacre took place, with children happily dragging headless corpses through the streets of Paris...many of those people killed by priests, no less. Not long after this, Emperor Ferdinand's efforts to suppress Protestantism led to wars that reduced the population of Germany by as much as 75%.

A little more than 300 years ago, people were burning women alive in the name of Christ, at the Salem Witch trials. Back in Europe, Jews were regularly being persecuted, killed, and forcibly converted to Christianity.

Just over 150 years ago, again in America, the 1838 Mormon War took place in Missouri, in which the "infidel Mormons" were killed (including women and children), had their homes burned and property seized, and were eventually driven from the state entirely.

Little over 100 years ago, women in many Christian nations couldn't vote or own property independently, due to "good Christian" interpretations of biblical scripture.

30 years ago, the Christian "prophet" Jim Jones was convincing people to commit suicide in Jonestown Guyana...and murdering anyone who refused. 900 died in that one incident alone, including 300 small children.

The nonsense that Christian violence ended "a thousand years ago" is total rubbish.

> "we don't shoot children in the back ..."

Actually, there's an eyewitness report of a Mormon child being shot in the back by a "good Christian" during the war I mention above.


RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/23/2007 2:47:36 PM , Rating: 2
Masher2,

You forgot Timothy McVeigh -white Christian. These brief isolated periods of time and events just don't measure up to the Islam's basic tenets that have existed since Mohammed created it and then changed from peaceful prophet to murderous thug, convert, subjugate or kill unbelievers. Apply sharia law to any society you conquer. You just don't see this in Christianity.

Sure, I wholeheartedly agree that groups of people throughout time have done some horrible things in the name of Christ. Their interpretation of the Bible was wrong and they are to be condemned. I've mentioned in another post that some of Crusaders were absolutely brutal. There's no excuse for that. But since then you just don't see the same behavior vs. that of muslims. You just don't see Christian mujahadeen driving the streets of any country carrying out atrocities or trying to impose their way of on people at the end of a barrel.

Jim Jones was a egomaniacal psycho. He hardly massacred all those people in the name of Christ. He was not well in the head.



RE: this is why i love america
By masher2 (blog) on 1/23/2007 2:59:13 PM , Rating: 3
> "These brief isolated periods of time and events just don't measure up..."

Sounds like you're in fast retreat from your earlier statement of "zero in a thousand years"! However, while christian violence may be "isolated" today, it was par for the course 500 years ago...far more so than Islam is today.

And, of course, what you fail to recognize is that violence in Islam is isolated as well. I've visited dozens of foreign nations, including several that are Muslim-majority, such as Malaysia. Never once saw a violent event, or felt threatened in any way.

Let me give you an example that may be illustrative. Cities have the highest usage of chlorinated drinking water. Most AIDS cases occur in cities. Conclusion: chlorinated water causes AIDS. Silly, eh? That's exactly the same fallacy you're making with Islam though. Some nations are more violent than others. Many of those nations are Muslim. False conclusion: Islam incites violence. Most of those third-world nations would have as much violence, if not more, without Islam than they would with it.


RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/23/2007 3:24:43 PM , Rating: 2
So that's your big victory? Good one. Only liberals and the French retreat so quickly.

Didn't you see what happened when those cartoons portraying muslims as being violent came out? How many millions of muslims reacted with.... violence? They called of the death of cartoonists. This wasn't a small isolated incident with only a few extremists. Muslims worldwide reacted violently. Jesus Christ is continually degraded in the art community and elsewhere and all we do is shake our heads. We don't call for the beheadings of the artists.

You can have the last word. I've got to get busy making my e-Penis bigger. That was a good conversation.


RE: this is why i love america
By masher2 (blog) on 1/23/2007 3:38:26 PM , Rating: 3
> "Only liberals and the French retreat so quickly..."

Sorry, but you'll have a hard time sticking a "liberal" label on me.

> "Didn't you see what happened when those cartoons portraying muslims as being violent came out? How many millions of muslims reacted with.... violence?"

I saw one incident of a nun being shot that was suspected of being connected. Other than that, I saw a few protests that were about as violent as your average Greenpeace rally. Did I miss something? Out of 1.3 BILLION Muslims, this is your evidence of "widespread Muslim violence"?

> "We don't call for the beheadings of the artists..."

No, but there's quite a few Christians calling for the deaths of abortion doctors.




RE: this is why i love america
By InsaneGain on 1/26/2007 6:16:50 PM , Rating: 2
Also, Masher2 what is your point? The debate is whether or not Islam encourages violence, not whether or not Christianity has a spotless record in this regard. So are you conceding the fact that presently Islam incites violence, but Christianity did as well in the past ? Personally, I don't care if Christianity was or was not a religion of peace, it's irrelevant - also, I'm agnostic - but what is relevant is if a significant number of people are being incited towards hatred and violence towards innocents by Islam TODAY.


RE: this is why i love america
By InsaneGain on 1/26/2007 6:05:01 PM , Rating: 2
I'm just curious, Masher2, are you a historian with a specialty in religion? Otherwise, how can you readily come up with passages from the bible that describe violent acts?


RE: this is why i love america
By InsaneGain on 1/26/2007 3:41:06 PM , Rating: 2
Well, you did do your research. Where did you read this? I am interested in the true history of Islam and I also read that Mohammed was a ruthless caravan robber. Just recently, I read an article that right now in Saudi Arabia, the textbooks used by children teach that Jews are descended from pigs and that Christians are from monkeys, and all "non-believers" are to be hated. This was a bit of scandal because after 9/11, Saudi Arabia quietly promised to the U.S. government that all such teachings would be stopped. Apparently, there is an extremist Wahhabist sect in Saudi Arabia that allows the Saudi Royal family to remain in power in exchange for allowing them to control the social aspects of society. This includes the teaching of intolerance and hatred of foreigners. Saudi Arabia is without a doubt, the epicenter of the problem. As for everyone writing that most Muslims are moderate, how moderate were the millions across the globe when some cartoonists depicted Mohammed?


By TellindaTroof on 1/23/2007 9:42:28 AM , Rating: 2
I did not intend to paint all muslims as terrorists. They aren't. The fact remains that Islam is a violent religion, Christianity is not. Look what happened when the pope quote a Byzantine ruler about the Islam being a violent religion or whatever. How did muslims around the world react? They went nucking futs with violence and called for his head. Doesn't anyone see this as ironic?

quote:
And speaking of Muslim countries attacking neighbors - that's pretty fucked up shit, I have yet to see a single Muslim country that attacked its neighbor just to convert them to Islam.

I never said that they attack another country only to convert them. Look around at every shooting war around the world. Muslims are involved. It's very simple if you read the Q'uran and any true history of Mohammed. Muslims are commanded by Allah to slay unbelievers. They liken jews to pigs and monkeys. It's all there for anyone to read. The hadiths (customs of Mohammed) are chock full of sick twisted behavior by this perfect model of behavior. Ordering the slaughter of innocents, ordering the assasination of his detractors, polygamy, sex with slaves, and this little gem of perfect behavior: Mohammed took a 6 year old wife, Aisha, and popped her cherry when she was 9. She was his favorite wife. You don't hear about these things in the media and from other apologists for Islam. Never. So they never have to defend Mohammed's actions, they are never called to account.

What is really transparent about Mohammed and his 'revelations' from Allah is this; time and time again when Mohammed was in a situation, he magically received a revelation from Allah to satisfy his own personal desires or to fix some sticky situation. It's freaking hilarious. Most muslims don't know what is in the Q'uran and and they can only recite the verses that are positive and uplifting. there are many accounts of muslims looking closer at a translation of the Q'uran and being quite disgusted so they became apostates. Oh speaking of apostates, under Sharia law, the penalty for converting away from Islam is death! Anyone care to defend that? Sharia law is the governmental system under Islam and it is the highest law to a true muslim. Somebody please tell me that I'm full of crap, there's no such thing as Sharia law and that muslims don't want to spread it all over the globe. Give me some facts, maybe some reassurance from some imams that I'm wrong.

The mosques in Anytown, USA don't teach the violent parts of the Q'uran as far as we know. The UK however, is diffent. Wahhabism is making huge advances in Europe due to the pacifism of France and other countries there.

Muslims won't tell you that Mohammed was a thief, not a common thief, but an exceptionally good one. His band of thugs would attack caravans, killing all the men, raping the women and keeping them as slaves. Then when it came time to split up the booty, Mohammed would once again get a magical revelation that God's Messenger is to get 1/2 the booty. Hey! I'm God's messenger! I guess that means I get 1/2 the booty! Hey that guy is still alive, cut off his head! Other times they would spare the lives of those they conquered if they converted to Islam or they would make a pact where those conquered would live as dhimmis, the lowest class of citizen. The dhimmis were another source of income for the muslim societies. They were forced to pay a poll tax. This was one of the 3 choices they had: Conversion, dhimmitude or death.

Another great thing about Islam is how they treat women. They'll tell you that women are held in the highest regard in muslim society. Under Sharia law, if a woman accuses a man of rape, she must provide like 4 male witnesses to back her up. If she can't provide witnesses, she has admitted to adultery and will be stoned to death. Mohammed's child-wife, whose cherry was popped by Mohammed at age 9, said (paraphrasing)"No one has suffered more that the muslim woman". I've said this before in another post: A few years ago (I think) Saudi virtue police prevented 15 schoolgirls from escaping a buring building because they didn't have on their proper Islamic dress. The 15 girls died, were burned to death, because they couldn't be seen in public without their scarves. These people aren't the radicals shooting up Iraq. This is the police force in Saudi Arabia. Somebody please defend these muslims. Let's hear it. "Oh they are extremists, I know a white police office that would do the same thing at a black school".

There is so much more about the beginnings of Islam and this isn't the forum for it. I welcome any rebuttals though, someone tell me I'm wrong here.

But most people won't ever hear any of these facts anywhere unless you seek the truth yourselves.


RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/23/2007 9:50:39 AM , Rating: 2
Yeah the individuals are just fine. Here's a peaceful muslim individual who was upset about a movie portraying muslim treatment of women:

From Wikipedia:


Mohammed Bouyeri assassinated van Gogh in the early morning of Tuesday November 2, 2004, in Amsterdam in front of the Amsterdam East borough office (stadsdeelkantoor) on the corner of the Linnaeusstraat and Tweede Oosterparkstraat streets. He shot him with eight bullets from a HS 2000 (a handgun produced in 2000 in Croatia), and Van Gogh died on the spot. Bouyeri slit van Gogh's throat and then stabbed him in the chest. Two knives were left implanted in his torso, one pinning a five-page note to his body. The note (Text) threatened Western governments, Jews and Hirsi Ali (who went into hiding). The note also contains references to the ideologies of the Egyptian organization Takfir wal-Hijra.



RE: this is why i love america
By Pirks on 1/24/2007 3:10:38 PM , Rating: 1
quote:
Mohammed Bouyeri assassinated van Gogh in the early morning of Tuesday November 2, 2004, in Amsterdam in front of the Amsterdam East borough office
Yeah, I know there are crazy fanatics like that. So, now by the same logic should I treat, say, all Germans as deserving death just because some Germans were, you know, doing some "bad" (can't find the correct word here) things to Jews in concentration camps? No, seriously, man, you have to open you shut eyes a little wider. Just read about some atrocoties commies performed in Russia under the rule of Josef Stalin, or the same Germans under the rule of Adlof Hitler. What I mean here is that these rare muslim fanatics are simply NOTHING compared to Nazis or Commies of Christian Europe and Russia. You have not got even a slightest idea if what was happening in Russia begnning from 1914 approximately... haha muslims, eat my a.. - I believe it when I see it. Gimme some muslim genocide that even _REMOTELY_ similar to what christian nazi or russian commies did, and then I might get interested.

Your SINGLE fanatic killing a movie director or a SINGLE pair of american skyscrapers blown up by muslim fanatics - that is still ABSOLUTELY nothing compared to (christian) russia or (christian) germany in 1920s-1240s. Sorry, man, but on the scale of Real Evil there are things that weigh a LOT LOT LOT more than your puny little muslims. At least YET.


RE: this is why i love america
By Jawadali on 1/23/2007 12:37:24 AM , Rating: 2
I don't want to stir any hostilities, but I think we should do a little more research (perhaps from multiple perspectives) before making such blanket statements. I don't want to target you alone (or anyone else for that matter), as many people make conclusions on their initial findings and impressions, and it's not entirely their fault. After all, we are mainly limited to what we see and hear in the media, and thorough research does take a good deal of time and effort, so it's not always an (quick) option. Most Muslim communities in America are more than happy to discuss and answer questions pertaining to Islam, and can help to draw a more realistic picture of the religion than what is portrayed in the media.

Sorry if this is off-topic (and long), but I’d just like to add some information to what has already been said about Islam/Muslims in relation to being “bad guys”.

I believe over the course of history, many people have used religion as a tool to promote their own agenda and to manipulate others. I don't think the religion should be blamed for the acts of a few individuals or groups. What we are seeing today in the media clearly proves the statement "little knowledge is dangerous", because a small number of Muslims take action "in the name of God" without knowing the full meaning, interpretation, and context of certain verses/revelations of the Quran and other Islamic references. These few, in turn, spread their version of fanatic "Islam", convincing others (usually younger, poorer/less-educated, people in underdeveloped countries) that "you will go to paradise by killing the infidels". It is extremely disturbing that such notions have and are being preached in countries such as the U.K. by a few groups. I am a Muslim, and I'd actually not mind temporary government investigation of religious centers, as long as after it is deemed the center is not a threat, the people are free to continue practicing their religion in peace. The Islamic community where I live is open to anyone at any time who wishes to learn about Islam (we just had an academic open-house about 2 months ago).

The essence of true Islam can be summed up in "Faith in God, and service to mankind". The prophet Mohammed (who actually tried to avoid armed conflict whenever possible) preached the many of same teachings that were also taught by the prophets Jesus and Moses. One of his quotes was that "For someone who has killed one human being, it is like killing all of humanity, and for one who has saved one human being, it is as if he has saved all of humanity." He also preached religious tolerance, and never forced anyone to convert against their will, as seen by the Charter of Privileges: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charter_of_Privileges

Sadly, much of Mohammed's propagation of the true Islam was distorted by politically elected "caliphs" and other rulers who, once again, used Islam to their own gain (such as obtaining land/wealth). It was these rulers who “spread Islam by the sword” after Mohammed’s death. Corruption is not limited to any religion, as we can also see in the Papacy of Pope Alexander VI. Had the whole Muslim community at the time followed the prophet's recommended successor (his nephew Ali), Islam probably would have not been as diluted and misunderstood as it is today.



I suggest looking at a version of the Quran with English translation commentary, such as The Holy Qur'an: Text, Translation and Commentary ISBN: 0940368846 (Newest is 3rd ed., 2002, but older editions may be easier to get a hold of), to see how close the Abrahamic faiths really are. I also suggest reading the first four left-side links here: http://www.ezsoftech.com/akram/introductiontoislam...

Once again, I apologize if this was off-topic, but I felt that, due to the degree of misunderstanding (once again, it’s not anyone’s fault), something had to be said




RE: this is why i love america
By brownzilla on 1/22/07, Rating: 0
RE: this is why i love america
By TellindaTroof on 1/22/2007 2:08:26 PM , Rating: 5
Your debate skills are to be admired. You are obviously a muslim apologist.

Do you actually believe most muslim aggression began 40 years ago due to our meddling in their business. Read "The Truth About Mohammed" and "The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam" for some enlightenment as to why your peaceful muslims are the victims everywhere. It's a fact that Islam was spread by the sword. That's violence for the uneducated here.

Nazis were not Christians
I live in Oklahoma. Tim McVeigh's mass murder of 160+ people was not religiously motivated. This is a common argument used by muslim apologists.
White supremacists are few and far between. They don't rule any countries. They don't have their own form of government When is the last time you heard of one of them blowing up people? As far as I know, they don't shoot children in the back like your precious muslims did in Beslan, they haven't beheaded 3 Christian girls walking home from school in Indonesia, and I'm certain they didn't prevent schoolgirls from escaping a burning school in Saudi Arabia because they weren't wearing proper islamic dress. I've never heard of any Christian group carrying out acts like this. These kinds of things are so common, it's totally unbelievable that there are people still out there that back them.

Read up on the Crusades, it's good reading. True, there were some segments of the Crusaders that were absolutely brutal and there is no excuse for what some of them did. That doesn't justify what muslims have been doing for 1300 years.

Since you believe that muslims only attack innocent citizens when their affairs have been looked into, what did Spain do to attract the horrific train bombing they endured?

Christianity is not a violent religion. This is another argument used by muslim apologists. Where are the news stories to match even .0001% of the violence perpetrated by muslims?? Someone here tell me! There are several people here who are muslim apologists and think that I'm an asshole. Someone point me to the evidence that 'Christianity is a violent religion'. This says something about the intelligence level of much of the planet.


RE: this is why i love america
By Oregonian2 on 1/22/2007 2:41:23 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
Christianity is not a violent religion.


It was at one time a very long time ago, and is a very embarrassing period for Christianity (of which I count myself as part of). It was very bad, but fortunately was one that is now very long behind us and was gotten over with. Just hope the maturation of Islam doesn't take as long.


RE: this is why i love america
By beepandbop on 1/22/2007 10:50:02 PM , Rating: 2
You could argue that Christianity is violent, but in no period of violence was it spurred on by religion. People have sought to use the religion to back up their claims of violence, but no where does the Bible inspire you to be violent or to force religion on others? Nowehere. Jesus even in said that "If you come upon those who resist you, turn away, leave their presence, and do not converse with them about the subject again"
But the apostles also say: "Spread the word of Joy to all corners of the world, tell everyone was God has done, for the Salvation of the world"
But it does not say: "Behead those who resist, kill the heathen, and you shall..blah blah."
The medieval popes and rulers, descendants of Barbarian warlords and the like were warlike. Christianity wasn't, but rulers adopted it because they would gain access to technologies more civilized Italian and Christian peoples had.
True, religion has been interlaced with violence, but never has Christianity been a tool of violence, never did Jesus or any Christian say "Force religion on somebody" nor did they want to force people to become Christians.
Its a twisted view many ignorants have, and the media doesn't help. Its quite understandable too, but don't you be suckered into believing it.


RE: this is why i love america
By masher2 (blog) on 1/23/2007 12:09:09 AM , Rating: 3
> "but in no period of violence was [Christian violence] spurred on by religion..."

Millions of long-dead Christians beg to differ with you, including a lengthy list of Popes, Cardinals, Bishops, and other esteemed figures. It is your interpretation that the Christian bible does not incite violence. In their opinion, killing and persecuting the unbeliever and/or the errant sinner was ordained by God himself. Similarly, it is your opinion that the Quran incites violence. Some Muslims agree with you. Many, however, do not.

Starting to see a pattern here?


By CascadingDarkness on 1/24/2007 6:26:07 PM , Rating: 2
As humans we view life from one perspective. We tend not to realize that everyone is in a similar boat, but their perspective may not exactly match ours. When it comes down to it, just because theirs may be different doesn't make it wrong, and doesn't make your right. Life isn't black and white.

Murder is generally viewed as wrong, but ok in self defence, so there's grey there even.

I don't think it would hurt anyone to take a step back and try to see the world from another angle.


RE: this is why i love america
By Ringold on 1/22/2007 3:53:09 PM , Rating: 1
TellindaTroof, you're my hero.

I'm surprised, personally, that Europeans would so easily forget the circumstances surrounding perhaps the largest French military VICTORY in history! The Muslims had spread their babble across North Africa at the end of a sword, conquered Spain, and was making plain its designs on modern day France when Charlemagne proved that the French can indeed be men if they get around to it. If not for Charlemagne, I see no historical reason or other force that might've stopped the consolidation of the rest of Europe under Islamic rule.

As it is though, Byzantine held the line in the East (leave it to the descendent's of Rome to carry a burden no one else could), Charlemagne routed them in the West, and it allowed Europe to congeal in to more solid nation states thanks to the threat of Islamic invasion from all directions (except the North).

They seem to like to forget that, though. That's the kind of intellectual and moral weakness that results from decades of protection under the United States nuclear umbrella.

Regarding Christianity and violence, though.. Christianity put this sort of mass religious ideological slaughter behind it mostly after the Middle Ages. Islam is just now getting around to what Europeans did hundreds of years ago. Dangerous thing is though, Europeans had swords. Some Islamic states have nuclear weapons sitting atop long range missiles.