Print 30 comment(s) - last by Oregonian2.. on Oct 27 at 2:16 PM

If Intel felt bad about losing the MacBook graphics war, they will hate what's coming next

For a long time Intel has enjoyed significant domination in the notebook integrated graphics world. Its integrated graphics chips were so popular that they alone gave Intel the lead in the graphics market.

NVIDIA, the leader in discrete graphics, has its eyes on Intel's integrated market and its latest integrated GPU -- the 9400M -- may be just the chip to grab share from Intel. NVIDIA's Nick Stam believes that the 9400M could grab 30% of the existing integrated graphics market.

Laptop Magazine had a long interview with Stam to talk about the new GPU and other NVIDIA issues. NVIDIA and Apple claim that the 9400M delivers about five times the performance of Intel's X4500HD integrated graphics. Laptop says that in its testing an improvement of about 2.5 times was seen. Despite the improvement in performance, the new MacBook using the 9400M was able to last five hours in the Laptop battery test.

Intel wasn't happy when it lost out on the MacBook GPU business. DailyTech reported this month that Intel has pledged to do whatever it takes to win the Mac business back. Stam says that users who just check email and surf the web won’t really notice any improvements of the 9400M compared to Intel's integrated GPU. However, those who encode video, use Google Earth and other applications will notice the increased power.

Stam says that NVIDIA is also working on a sort of upscaling technology for internet videos. A good example is YouTube; anyone who has watched a YouTube video knows the average quality is far from good. NVIDIA says future technology it is working on could make the video much clearer just like an upscaling DVD player does with DVD movies.

NVIDIA is mum on when we might see this upscaling technology, but says it is working with seven or eight companies that are making video enhancement technologies. Speaking on NVIDIA's goal of grabbing 30% of the integrated video market, Stam says that five other major notebook manufacturers are planning to ship notebooks using the 9400M GPU soon.

Laptop asked Stam why you had to log-out and back in to change from integrated to discrete graphics on the MacBook Pro. Stam says that log-out and in processes isn't needed on the Windows platform with NVIDIA GPUs, but the software for OS X isn't to the point where that is possible yet. Stam does say that is a feature coming in the future.

Speaking about the massive GPU failures in notebooks form Apple, HP, and Dell Stam told Laptop, "… it [GPU failures] has to be a bad thermal environment and lots of power cycling. Many different scenarios have to come together to cause the problem. We set a lot of money aside, but we really haven’t had to service a lot of that. All of a sudden when you say something like that the whole world blows up and thinks it’s every notebook."

The 9400M GPU can scale down to netbook use according to Stam. The clocks can scale and NVIDIA has a reduced function version of the GPU for lower-end systems. Stam also says there has been interest from netbook makers, but he declined to reveal what firms were interested. NVIDIA expects its TEGRA GPU to be very popular in the netbook market next year.

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By FITCamaro on 10/23/2008 11:58:58 AM , Rating: 2
How does the 9400M compare the ATIs HD3200?

RE: Comparison
RE: Comparison
By FITCamaro on 10/23/2008 1:30:08 PM , Rating: 2
Oh yeah. Forgot that one. So its a bit better or equal depending on games.

RE: Comparison
By on 10/23/08, Rating: -1
RE: Comparison
By bjacobson on 10/23/2008 12:57:43 PM , Rating: 2
Um, yeah, that is NOT true. The 3-series and on provides full video acceleration.

RE: Comparison
By FITCamaro on 10/23/2008 1:28:58 PM , Rating: 3
So that's why my laptop can play back a Blu-ray while surfing the net and chatting on Trillian.

RE: Comparison
By FaceMaster on 10/23/08, Rating: 0
RE: Comparison
By mushi799 on 10/23/08, Rating: 0
RE: Comparison
By FaceMaster on 10/23/2008 3:25:01 PM , Rating: 5
Computer says no

RE: Comparison
By StevoLincolnite on 10/23/2008 6:26:31 PM , Rating: 5
Yes it can AMD showed a demonstration awhile ago showing the 3200 running Crysis on the lowest quality settings at 1024x768 without any hiccups, impressive I say for an IGP.

RE: Comparison
By FITCamaro on 10/23/2008 8:35:32 PM , Rating: 1
But do I care?

RE: Comparison
By maroon1 on 10/24/2008 7:34:16 AM , Rating: 2
Here are another reviews for 9300

It seems that it outperforms 790GX most of the time

RE: Comparison
By on 10/25/08, Rating: -1
By tallcool1 on 10/23/2008 11:53:25 AM , Rating: 5
Intel graphics have always been horrific, barely acceptable for general pc use. I hope the continue to lose market share. It will be nice to one day have all PCs come with a decent minimum graphics processor installed.

RE: Good
By mmntech on 10/23/2008 12:17:21 PM , Rating: 5
Agreed. Intel's graphics chipsets are just horrible. On the Mac platform running Xbench tests, I found that the Radeon 9550 beats out the GMA X3100 by a significant margin on OpenGL rendering. Stuff like the GMA 950 are only barely powerful enough for Vista and OS X and the X3100 is no good for modern 3D apps.

It's good that nVidia is producing more reasonably powered integrated GPUs. Especially now with HD video requirements for HTPC systems. For me though, discrete graphics are mandatory in any system.

RE: Good
By Oregonian2 on 10/23/2008 2:11:22 PM , Rating: 3
Don't underestimate Intel. Their previous stuff was low-end integrated graphics. Anybody else pushing higher end stuff won't have trouble because Intel's wasn't focused on graphics nor performance of it. Their intended market wasn't for where it mattered -- price was the focus.

But my understanding of Intel is that in the last year or two, they've really cranked up their focus on graphics performance to the level they concentrate on CPUs. So their products are likely to be improving quite dramatically in the next few years strategically (without regard to the tactical moves made in the short term).

Seeing competition start to crank up is good -- it'll spur things along. :-)

RE: Good
By Dribble on 10/24/2008 6:56:27 AM , Rating: 2
Intel have done nothing other then talk about better graphics. However talk is cheap, and the fact that they can't even get the drivers to work properly on the graphics chips they do provide doesn't exactly fill you with belief in what they are saying.

RE: Good
By Oregonian2 on 10/27/2008 2:16:24 PM , Rating: 2
I've owned video cards by ATI, nVidia, Matrox, and some other minor players. ALL have had buggy software (ATI was the worst in my personal experience, but the others have'm too -- probably more a matter of just which card and when one has it). If Intel had no bugs in their drivers, they'd be the only one.

p.s. - You still weren't catching the drift of my comment though.

By Spoelie on 10/23/2008 1:16:20 PM , Rating: 4
" NVIDIA's Nick Stam believes that the 9400M could grab 30% of the existing integrated graphics market."

How does that translate into actually having that much market share? Using Babelfish Titlegenerator or something?

RE: Title?
By Spoelie on 10/23/2008 1:20:17 PM , Rating: 2
ahum, didn't notice the little "for" word, still a title that easily misleads, but my excuses anyway.

RE: Title?
By TSS on 10/23/2008 7:21:33 PM , Rating: 4
no, their just slightly warping a title to get a huge amount of clicks more. after all i clicked thinking nvidia had managed to grab 30% of the well known intel integrated graphics market, which would be incredible.

while many dailytechers are against false/misleading advertising doesn't mean dailytech itself is above it. heck, somebody is still making money off the ads on this page, and the more people view it, the more possible clicks.

just accept it for what it is. once it gets really bad, we'll just revolt and reset the system again. it's the same every few century's....

Bit of a misnomer
By bhieb on 10/23/2008 1:07:13 PM , Rating: 2
A good example is YouTube; anyone who has watched a YouTube video knows the average quality is far from good. NVIDIA says future technology it is working on could make the video much clearer just like an upscaling DVD player does with DVD movies.

Upscaling is a tricky thing there is no magic vodoo involved. Scaling does not "clean" a bad video it merely resizes it better (garbage in garbage out). Just like a DVD will never look as good as HD, a bad YouTube will still be a bad YouTube. They may make a little difference but
could make the video much clearer just like an upscaling DVD player does with DVD movies.

Scaling is just a necessary evil to get output resolutions to match up, it does not really "clean" up an image per se. Nothing cracks me up more than watching some moron spend hundreds to buy the upscaling 1080p DVD player just to hook it up to a 720p or even 1080i TV. They end up scaling and rescaling so much that they would have been much better off with a $30 cheapo dvd player and let the TV scale it.

RE: Bit of a misnomer
By Chocobollz on 10/24/2008 3:52:55 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. Upscaling is like a double-edged sword; it could make it better or make it worse. Most of the time, upscaling will worsen the picture (albeit only a bit if you apply some round scaling like 2x, 3x, and so on) except if there are some post-processing filter going on, like a smoother filter. But a smoother filter would only make it worse if it doesn't configured correctly, it could clean up subtle noises but if you do it to much, it'll remove a lot of details on the picture, and the picture would looked like a cartoon movie XD

.."and thinks it’s every notebook"
By CMercer on 10/23/2008 7:48:21 PM , Rating: 2
Being a PC Tech for a big box retailer, i had to add my 2 cents.

There was a period of time where we were getting 3-5 laptops a week in that were covered under HP's Service Enhancement, due to failing GPUs. We currently have 3 that have been at HP for around 4 weeks that are now awaiting RMAs. IIRC, there are around 225 models that were affected by this issue. To see NVIDIA downplaying this issue infuriates me. Maybe it has to do with region/location in the country, but It damn near seemed like every HP coming to the bench was suffering from this issue.

By mindless1 on 10/26/2008 1:57:19 AM , Rating: 2
There are indeed many questionable, arguably defective nVidia GPUs out there, but as someone who has in their hand an HP w/6150 video I found two other problems that contributed as much if not moreso.

1) HP has set the fan to speed up based on processor temperature, but the same heatpipe/fins/fan cools both the processor and GPU. This was a mistake on their part since modern mobile processors can go down into very low power states, meaning the northbridge/GPU is creating more heat than the CPU is but more importantly a higher heat density due to smaller die size.

2) At least on the model I have, the design places a very thick silicone thermal pad inbetween the heatpipe and the northbridge/GPU. That is bound to be quite a bit less effective than if it were a traditional metal then layer of grease or thin waxy thermal interface material.

To put it another way, I was seeing northbridge temps in excess of 85C. I'd never let a desktop motherboard chipset get that hot, I'd never let a CPU get that hot, and even a separate video card GPU getting over 80C concerns me. HP's design simply doesn't remove enough heat and their prototypes should've indicated this but they kept the design and sold laptops that hot anyway.

Combine both of these design mistakes and the coincidence that nVidia has also had known problems with solder bumps on G86 and G84, and we're seeing both shady behavior from nVidia AND a lot of people blaming nVidia for other failures that weren't their fault.

30% in a year? Only to then vanish?
By Doormat on 10/23/2008 10:07:23 PM , Rating: 2
I've asked this question a few times and never seen an adequate response...

What is nvidia going to do late next year when mobile nehalem hits the streets and they don't have a license for QPI? They seem to be putting a lot of effort only to lose it next year.

By Chocobollz on 10/24/2008 4:05:37 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, and to make it worse, I don't know why they're acting like they want to make Intel to go mad at them again? Don't they already learned their lessons? I mean the lesson they get when the nVidia's David Kirk saying that AMD/ATi wouldn't be able to beat them, and see what happen? They get whooped in the 4ss lol.. XD And speaking about whooping someone's 4ss.. what they got when they speaks about Opening a can of whoop-ass? XD I can't believe they're still thinking they're superior.

And mind you, I'm an ATi fans ;-) I just want to give 'em a lesson ;-P

Total Market Share - 20% more
By iwod on 10/23/2008 11:06:37 PM , Rating: 2
Currently there are 25 Million Integrated Graphics Ship per quarter.

If Apple switch their whole range of computer to Nvidia, that will be at least 10% market share for them.

Seeing how OEMs always like to copy Apple, i believe crabbing 10% form them shouldn't be too hard.

The other 10% would come from Channel. Since Intel doesn't have a decent Video acceleration engine, Geforce 9400M stand a good chance to do well here.

So that is 30%. And they could do better then that.

RE: Total Market Share - 20% more
By kelmon on 10/24/2008 3:32:57 AM , Rating: 2
As a general rule, be conservative with your estimations but not too much. Ideally, your estimate should be bang on with what was achieved but since that usually doesn't happen, exceeding your targets always goes down well with investors. Well, it certainly goes down better than missing your targets...

the giant has been awakened
By nerdye on 10/24/2008 9:23:06 PM , Rating: 2
Intel has not suffered much market share loss in the integrated graphics department in much recent memory (as they have dominated), but finally their lack of power in their IGP's have cost them supplying apple's IGP's, which is a big loss. Perhaps the giant has been awakened and will respond with vengeance.

Intel's previous success in IGP from a market standpoint be compared to the p4. The athlon took the performance crown from the p4 half the time, and the athlon64 wiped its butt with p4, while the p4 had great sales throughout. Then the athlon64 x2 actually sold well and took a bit of the giant's sales. The giant woke up and out came core2 duo, the rest is history. We all know larabee is coming and has nvdia and amd worried. What does the giant have up its sleeve for IGP? These will be interesting times in the future.

"If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion." -- Scientology founder L. Ron. Hubbard
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