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Microsoft data shows NVIDIA caused bulk of Vista crashes

When Windows Vista first hit market, some driver issues were to be expected as hardware manufacturers moved existing components to the new OS from Windows XP. As is natural for new items, the enthusiast community was among the first to embrace the new operating system.

The incompatibilities were part due to Vista incorporating Microsoft’s DirectX 10 promising better graphics and physics in PC games. At the time, the high-end G80 graphics cards were some of the most popular graphics cards on the market including the NVIDIA 8800 GTS, GTX, and Ultra.

NVIDIA had driver problems with of Vista and DirectX 10 from the get go and delayed their first driver from a December 2006 release to a January 2007 release. Even once the driver hit market, there were wide spread reports of crashes because of NVIDIA drivers.

The problem with reports of buggy drivers is that no one can really tell if the drivers are actually at fault, or if the computer experiencing the driver crash has some other underlying problem contributing to the crash.

As part of the ongoing Vista Capable class action lawsuit, Microsoft released data on exactly what drivers caused the bulk of logged Windows Vista crashes. The number one culprit of Vista crashes related to driver failure was NVIDIA at 28.8%. Microsoft only broke logged crashes out for a few companies including NVIDIA, Intel (8.8%) and ATI (9.3%). Microsoft’s data shows that it was responsible for 17.9% of logged crashes.

The main early adopters of Vista were PC enthusiasts; the hardware of choice for PC enthusiasts at the time was NVIDIA G80 GPUs so it would be natural that more crashes would be logged as caused by a NVIDIA driver. Ars Technica also points out that the Microsoft data doesn’t specify if the crashes logged are from multiple machines or a group of particularly error prone computers experiencing multiple crashes.

DailyTech reported on the original suit being filed in April 2007. The suit alleged that Microsoft knowingly deceived customers with Windows Vista. The suit was given class action status in February 2008.



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Thats It!
By mikefarinha on 3/26/2008 4:15:49 PM , Rating: 4
Thats it, I'm buying a Mac!

Thats it, I'm *upgrading* to XP!

Thats it, I'm downloading Linux!

Did I forget anything?




RE: Thats It!
By mmntech on 3/26/2008 4:22:50 PM , Rating: 2
Done, done, and done. Linux and the latest ATI drivers don't seem to get along though. I can't get my HD 3850 working properly.

I'm sure Vista works fine for a lot of people but I'm going to wait for it to mature first until I get it. XP gave me a lot of headaches but now it runs rock stable and Vista has nothing to offer me other than DX10.


RE: Thats It!
By HeelyJoe on 3/26/2008 4:36:57 PM , Rating: 2
Did you use Envy to install the drivers? If not, try that.


RE: Thats It!
By howarchaic on 3/26/2008 4:38:25 PM , Rating: 3
Aren't ATI's drivers going opensores?


RE: Thats It!
By freaqie on 3/26/2008 4:50:47 PM , Rating: 2
not really there are omega drivers though


RE: Thats It!
By zshift on 3/26/2008 5:43:43 PM , Rating: 3
i thought omega drivers were for windows only though


RE: Thats It!
By sc3252 on 3/26/08, Rating: -1
RE: Thats It!
By afkrotch on 3/31/2008 1:26:46 PM , Rating: 1
Releasing some of your information and not all of it, is hardly open source. Even then, it's someone else making the drivers, so can you really say that it's AMD/ATI's drivers?

I'm going with, they aren't open source.


RE: Thats It!
By EntreHoras on 3/26/2008 5:00:23 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
opensores

???

OMG no thanks!!!


RE: Thats It!
By smitty3268 on 3/26/2008 10:00:49 PM , Rating: 2
They're releasing specs and helping developers create a new open source driver, but they aren't actually releasing their own drivers as open source. So the open ones are still at an early stage with only 2D working. Hopefully they'll be in pretty good shape by the end of the year.


RE: Thats It!
By Golgatha on 3/27/2008 9:22:18 AM , Rating: 4
ATI got the Herpes from AMD when they merged?

Re: opensores


RE: Thats It!
By eye smite on 3/26/2008 6:08:31 PM , Rating: 2
Download DirectX 10 for Windows XP from Alky Project

http://www.technospot.net/blogs/download-directx-1...

if that helps people who want dx10 and keep windows xp


RE: Thats It!
By Noliving on 3/26/2008 6:21:13 PM , Rating: 2
Too bad the alky project has been dead for over 6 months. The last update on the news from that group was in august of last year. All they released was an alpha version of a program that allowed windowsvista only games to run on xp like halo2 and shadowrun.


RE: Thats It!
By Noliving on 3/26/2008 6:25:36 PM , Rating: 2
Oh wait I lied, there was an update in january 2008:

Here is the update: http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/


RE: Thats It!
By 9nails on 3/26/2008 7:50:37 PM , Rating: 2
Realistically, Vista only has one good year on it left before Windows 7 is ready to be released. I'm sure like "Windows 98 SE", Windows 7 will be that mature and stable version of Windows Vista with all the promises working properly that you're looking for. I'd say skip this generation of Windows Vista and check back again in a year for the latest news on Windows 7.


RE: Thats It!
By Duwelon on 3/26/2008 8:45:35 PM , Rating: 4
Vista rocks for me. I'm running one of my PC's on XP still but for me getting any new PC without Vista is silly. A decent computer with 2 gigs of RAM with Aero absolutely flies. Vista may take up more resources than XP, but it puts them to very good use.

My only complaints at all with Vista right now, is because i'm willfully running 64 bit and some things just flat up refuse to install.


RE: Thats It!
By JustTom on 3/30/2008 7:45:19 PM , Rating: 2
If MS hits its target date for Win7 as accurately as it did for Vista I am figuring on getting it during the second Clinton presidency. That would be Chelsea not Hillary...


RE: Thats It!
By Complex Pants on 3/26/2008 4:25:17 PM , Rating: 5
You forgot MSDOS.

That never crashed one me.


RE: Thats It!
By DarkElfa on 3/26/2008 4:40:46 PM , Rating: 2
Yeah, I had many, many blue screens all related to the Nvidia Drivers for my 8800GTX. Other than that, I never have had one single error or crash from anything else.


RE: Thats It!
By ChronoReverse on 3/26/2008 4:50:36 PM , Rating: 2
I've gotten many multicoloured coloured screens (corrupted video) of death in MSDOS when games and such crashed.


RE: Thats It!
By Tim Thorpe on 3/26/2008 5:19:05 PM , Rating: 2
I've got a bad driver on an HP laptop with no clean driver remove utility for Vista 64 every time I play a netflix stream vista BSOD's because of an NVIDIA driver crash. Completely locks up the computer and I have to do a cold restart to get it working again loosing anything unsaved. Of course the UDA doesn't apply to laptops so NVIDIAs latest drivers that might (or might not) fix the problem can't be installed.

Its very frustrating, the entire Vista experiance is frustrating and SP1 doesn't fix any of it.


RE: Thats It!
By zshift on 3/26/2008 6:08:43 PM , Rating: 3
heres my fix, and it works for my laptop:

NOTE: I have done this for both ati and nvidia, the process is similar. this isn't a guaranteed method by any means and may hinder or better performance as the method uses desktop drivers for mobile gpus, so power consumption may also be affected. I've just been doing this to try and fix issues ive had with old proprietary drivers and its worked every time FOR ME, but I've only done this on 2 computers. If you understand and read through the INF file you will eventually understand how the drivers are installed and may be able to resolve performance, power usage etc., but this guide will not show you how to do that, this is simply a "quick fix"

right click on "computer" in start menu, then click manage. in the left pane click on device manager, press the + on the "display adapters" item, right click on the nvidia ***** (whatever you have) and hit properties. click on the details tab and select hardware ids from the drop down box (should be first or second). it should say something like "PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_****..." where *** * is a 4 digit hex code representing your graphics chip model. write that 4 digit number down.

now go to nvidia's website and download the latest driver for your graphics chip (nvidia 8 series for example) and pick any card in the list because the driver you download should include drivers for all cards of the same series. after its downloaded, run the installer once and make note of where it decompresses. it WILL give you an error saying a suitable driver could not be found or whatever. after this go to where the files decompressed and look for "nv_disp.inf". scroll down to a section where there are many lines that look similar to this:

%NVIDIA_C61.DEV_03D5.1% = nv_NV3x, PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_03D5
%NVIDIA_C68.DEV_053A.1% = nv_NV3x, PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_053A
%NVIDIA_C68.DEV_053B.1% = nv_NV3x, PCI\VEN_10DE&DEV_053B

the three digits after the %NVIDIA_ are the nvidia codenames for the gpu (like g80 and g92). do a quick google search with the 4 digit device code and the press name of the graphics chip (like 8600M GT) and see which gpu it falls under. now copy any line that has the same gpu and replace all DEV_**** parts in the line with DEV_(four digit code for you specific gpu) and add this to the end of the list. scroll down to the very bottom of the file now. this next part is optional but recommended. do a similar process with copying the line and replacing the dev code, but in the quotes you can either add the proper name of the graphics chip, or you can make up your own, like "billy bob's insanely BSODing gpu". again add this file to the end of the list. now save the file ( and make sure u save a copy of the original, save any important documents, and create a registry backup while your at it) and run the installer one more time, but make sure you don't overwrite ANY files. the installer should install a compatible driver and the many BSODs associated wit a buggy driver should now go away.

any comments please email me at dvblue88@aol.com (note i hate AOL, i only use this as a public email to give out, NOT as primary email....GO GMAIL (with imap!)).


RE: Thats It!
By BikeDude on 3/26/2008 7:17:46 PM , Rating: 4
..or just go to http://laptopvideo2go.com/ where an already modified .inf file can be found.


RE: Thats It!
By Locutus465 on 3/26/2008 5:33:30 PM , Rating: 5
Really? You must not have been a gamer back in the DOS days... I got to see all kinds of intersting messed up screens after DOS crashed in the middle of network play... Yes, my friends and I used to have lan parties using DOS!!! Duke Nukem, Red Alert and Redneck Rampage were the bomb!


RE: Thats It!
By Ammohunt on 3/26/2008 6:14:00 PM , Rating: 1
I upgraded to Vista Ultimate the otehr night..Its been 3 days and i am still fighting with it just to keep it running longer then a day. It is EXTREMELY sensitive to software that gets installed. If it doesn't like it it completely barfs! and crashes.


RE: Thats It!
By Duwelon on 3/26/2008 8:49:00 PM , Rating: 5
Sounds like your system is just unstable in terms of the hardware or drivers.


RE: Thats It!
By BradCube on 3/31/2008 3:46:06 AM , Rating: 2
I agree. I am running Vista Home Premium 64-bit and my computer hasn't been turned off in 5 days. I don't feel like it has slowed down at all and I haven't had any crashes :)


RE: Thats It!
By stromgald on 3/31/2008 12:14:48 PM , Rating: 2
Agreed. I have two computers with Vista now. The laptop has been more stable than with XP. The other machine had terrible problems, but it was mostly because it didn't have a Vista supported BIOS. Since flashing to the newer BIOS this year, it's also been stable.

The only compliants I have with Vista involve a lack of drivers (not completely MSFT's fault), and the extra RAM requirement (which is typical of any new software).


RE: Thats It!
By stromgald on 3/31/2008 12:15:26 PM , Rating: 2
Oh, and they both run nVidia graphics.


RE: Thats It!
By Operandi on 3/26/2008 7:58:23 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Did I forget anything?


Just one....

Thats it, I'm *upgrading* to ATI.


RE: Thats It!
By srue on 3/27/2008 10:28:18 AM , Rating: 2
You forgot apostrophes, but that's it.


So what is WHQL signing of drivers about then?
By Pirks on 3/26/2008 5:10:58 PM , Rating: 5
Do these WHQL guys even test those drivers? I mean what the duck is WHQL is for then? Just for looks or what? Does anyone has any info on what WHQL really does, do they like run any tests or something?? Do they test anything at all?

My Vista x64 crashed yesterday because of ATI video driver. Several rounds of short freezes, followed by messages that video driver is restarted and then after 10th freeze and message - kabooom!

OTOH I've heard a numerous reports about sh1tty ATI drivers or something on recent iMacs caused them to freeze real hard. So looks like at least Microsoft's WHQL checks (or whatever they call "checks") is not much worse than Apple's. Kinda soothing news, huh? :\




By Locutus465 on 3/26/2008 5:15:47 PM , Rating: 2
I can think of one reason why MS would be linient in the early days of vista regarding WHQL... Do you want graphics drivers or not? That's the basic question right there, the assumption is that early adopters will generally be more knowlegable and be able to coap with what they're getting. WHQL certifications will get more stringent as time goes on.


By BikeDude on 3/26/2008 7:30:42 PM , Rating: 4
quote:
I mean what the duck is WHQL is for then?


AFAIK, WHQL means the driver has passed various tests that are designed to stress the driver(s) in question. It eliminates most of the common mistakes, but of course there are limits to the kind of mistakes it can catch.

Eventually nVidia have to do some testing on their own...

My machine crashed 10 minutes into a Simpsons DVD after a recent nVidia driver upgrade (for XP). A colleague complained about random lockups with the same driver revision and was contemplating reinstalling Vista. I told him to grab a newer driver instead (fortunately released in the mean time), and the problems disappeared.

Don't tell me nVidia cannot improve the quality of their drivers. WHQL is not meant to be a substitution for nVidia's own QA.

Besides... Have any of you managed to report bugs to nVidia? I've tried in the past, but even easily reproduced crashes are of no consequence to them as they refuse all end-user support.


By Snuffalufagus on 3/26/2008 10:16:44 PM , Rating: 3
http://www.microsoft.com/whdc/winlogo/getstart/def...

If you have an MSDN account you should be able to get the software, load it in a VM or something.

The WHQL process can be a pain in the ass brcause they are so stringent, and many driver developers cry about the various security measures they have to implement to pass the tests. On the other hand MS provides plenty of tools so a developer can debug and pre-test their drivers before submission. Some of the WHQL test suites can take days to complete and are very exhaustive. What they can't do is verify every environment a driver will exist in as far as third party apps and various hardware configs go.


HP performance laptops, Vista, and nVidia
By sslavic on 3/26/2008 5:34:56 PM , Rating: 2
HP performance laptops (8510, 8710) with latest WHQL signed nVidia drivers, on Vista (with or without SP1) frequently fail to boot (see http://forums11.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupp...
Many have complained for quite some time, but no one cares - HP, Microsoft, nVidia. Only workaround was to revert to old drivers.

Instead of complaining and whining, they, Microsoft and nVidia, should put their hands together and work on these issues.

Aside from this issue, I haven't had any problems regarding hardware drivers, not even after installing SP1 although SP1 was not available on Windows Update for my machine because of supposed problems with fingerprint reader drivers and SP1 incompatibility - so far I haven't experienced any.




RE: HP performance laptops, Vista, and nVidia
By ChronoReverse on 3/26/2008 5:44:41 PM , Rating: 3
What is Microsoft supposed to do? They're not the driver makers.

In any case, the 8.3 drivers for my 3850 work perfectly.


By Targon on 3/26/2008 8:29:50 PM , Rating: 2
And wasn't it only six months ago that people were still claiming that NVIDIA had better drivers than ATI?


ok, so what about
By senbassador on 3/26/2008 7:06:10 PM , Rating: 1
the 71.2% of other crashes. Man, if I had a dollar for every time Word 07 crashed on me. And you can't attribute that one to 3rd party vendors.

The number one cause of crashes, at least to me anyway, seems to be the fact that Vista is a huge resource hog. Apparently running 8 firebox browsers, one Word 7, one eclipse, and a few other trivial programs is too much for my 1 gig of RAM to handle. Funny thing is, doing that with XP on a 768 MB of RAM ran just fine. Well, most of the time.




RE: ok, so what about
By ChronoReverse on 3/26/2008 7:13:21 PM , Rating: 2
Vista does have a higher overhead than XP. This should be plainly obvious. The extra Vista needs is about 512MB.


RE: ok, so what about
By BikeDude on 3/26/2008 7:35:47 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Man, if I had a dollar for every time Word 07 crashed on me.


Kind of irrelevant, is it not?

This news blurb was about BSODs, not application crashes. If an application crashes, it is usually of little consequence. Other apps continue just fine and never misses a beat. If however a device driver throws a fit, then your system is completely fubar.


Still have issues...
By EidolWays on 3/26/2008 5:30:54 PM , Rating: 2
I'm actually still having issues with my 7900 GT on Vista x64. When I enable dual displays, one display begins displaying nothing but distorted colors. The problem doesn't manifest until I install nVidia's drivers atop MS's default drivers.

Of course, I also experience these problems on 64-bit Linux, so I think it's either nVidia's drivers in general or this card in particular.




RE: Still have issues...
By exanimas on 3/26/2008 6:06:27 PM , Rating: 2
From what I know, it's a model specific issue relating to the drivers and not the x64/dual displays. I have a 7900GT and Vista 32-Bit and at first whenever UAC would pop up I'd get the distorted colors you are mentioning. After some research I found that, oddly enough, the "band-aid" like fix for this is to overclock the card (some people said even underclocking works). I have mine OCed 10mhz more than what it comes with and haven't seen those screens again since. If you're wondering, I used RivaTuner to make sure it stays overclocked. Hope this helps.


By RedStar on 3/26/2008 7:25:04 PM , Rating: 3
( I use nvidia 8800 gts 320 mb)

I have been using Vista since last march, and by far..most of my crashes were due to the nvidia drivers ///device stuck in loop and a couple other less important error messages.

IN fact, over 25 hardware video (driver) errors were reported by this computer in the first couple months. SO ya, some of those errors will have been repeats.

Did i mention i love vista (sp1) now? :)




Nvidia makes more than just video cards.
By SavagePotato on 3/27/2008 12:43:23 PM , Rating: 1
The general tone of posts seem to be ignoring of the fact that Nvidia produces more than just graphics cards. Nvidias chipset driver situation I would wager was a bigger part of it than even their graphics drivers.

Having installed vista on my nforce4 based Amd system which was shortly replaced with an Intel p965 based system, I can attest that the Nvidia platform performed much poorer at launch by far. Raid data was being corrupted regularly, overall performance was clearly affected, and 64bit performance was notably poorer. Having switched to an Intel chipset was a night and day improvement.

Nvidias later driver offerings were also a night and day improvement, but they dropped the ball without question.

There are so many would be technicians crawling around with just barely enough knowledge to build a system and install the OS, whining and sniveling that vista is evil. Whining and sniveling simply because they lack the ability to properly identify hardware conflicts and driver issues that lead to system instability.

Vista is by far more stable than XP was when it was released, people that don't have the skills to properly set up a system should be looking for a dummies book instead of making an ass of themselves and bashing the OS for their inadequacies.




By mindless1 on 3/29/2008 3:17:01 PM , Rating: 2
YOu are very confused, nobody is saying run an unpatched early release of XP, they're contrasting a matured OS (XP) versus an immature Vista.

Vista will eventually be more mature and stable, through both OS fixes and driver fixes. Thing is, it ISN'T there yet so you are foolish to dismiss the obviousness of this.


Vista is stable.
By Optimummind on 3/26/2008 11:31:35 PM , Rating: 2
I don't know why people are having so much trouble with Vista. I jumped on Vista 32-bit in March 2007 and I've never had any problems. I have Vista on two machines--on my Dell Vostro 1400 laptop and my custom-made PC and they're both rock stable . All of my peripherals, hardware, and software work.

I seriously think that most people are having problems with Vista because they don't know much about computers and don't know how to practice sound and intelligent computer-using practices.




Some issues not too bad though...
By ira176 on 3/27/2008 2:07:26 AM , Rating: 2
I've used Win Vista Home Premium 32 bit with ATI X1950 pro and a number of releases of Catalyst drivers, without too much issue. One catalyst release in particular, just didn't get along with Vista, I think it was 7.3.
I also have Vista Ultimate 64 Bit, with the same video card above and Cat. 8.3, and it's been stable.




Could it be DRM-related?
By ATWindsor on 3/27/2008 1:35:31 PM , Rating: 2
Rumours had it that the GPU-people had to rewrite quite a lot of code in their drivers due to DRM-requirments in Vista, obfuscating code and more(?). I don't know how true this is, or if it's related to the crashes, but it would be interesting to know some more about this.




By lobadobadingdong on 3/29/2008 10:09:26 AM , Rating: 2
It's amazing how slow hospital software companies are to update for compatability. We have all of 3 (out of nearly 40) apps that will even run stable on Vist. :(




Pretty odd
By i4mt3hwin on 3/26/08, Rating: -1
RE: Pretty odd
By GreenEnvt on 3/26/2008 4:12:14 PM , Rating: 5
The issue wasn't with SP1, but Vista itself back at launch time.

It should be noted, Microsoft wasn't placing any blame here or pointing figures, they just released stats on number of crash reports submitted.


RE: Pretty odd
By ChronoReverse on 3/26/2008 4:27:18 PM , Rating: 2
I hope people notice that. This isn't Microsoft accusing Nvidia, but rather the raw numbers that MS was subpoenaed for that seems to indicate that.

AFAIK it's pretty accurate too since Nvidia had really bad Vista drivers up to autumn 2007


RE: Pretty odd
By Xodus Maximus on 3/26/2008 5:42:13 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
wasn't placing any blame here or pointing fingers ,they just released stats on number of crash reports submitted

I assume you meant fingers, if not I suppose you can call them "pointy figures" too ;)

You make a very good point, when NVidia drives crash they do it "gracefully" so an error report gets created (if you left that feature turned on). My crash experience with my ATI cards have been outright "Blue Screen of Death" on my 3850 and occasional "Green Screen of Annoyance" while watching videos on my X200.

I am betting that these do not get reported, so these stats are truly worthless...


RE: Pretty odd
By ChronoReverse on 3/26/2008 5:56:37 PM , Rating: 2
Unless you've turned it off, BSOD's can be tracked and sent to MS.

As for your BSOD's which version of the catalysts are you using? So far the 8.3's have been solid on my Vista 64 SP1 installation with my stock 3850.


RE: Pretty odd
By Xodus Maximus on 3/26/2008 9:28:23 PM , Rating: 2
I never remember getting the "Click here to send report to MS" option after any of the blue screens, not once, maybe a report is generated behind the scenes, but my firewall would have caught it and it never did. That was my point, no report after a BSOD equals incomplete statistics. Oh, and I never turned off the reporting feature...

quote:
which version of the catalysts are you using?

I actually had to reboot into Vista (32bit no SP1) on my main system with the 3850 to find out, apparently its Catalyst 8.1, and on the same system XP has 8.2, so I'm really behind the times...but my card runs absolutely fine except when it gets too hot at about 60C, then in both OS's it does a BSOD, regardless of drivers, recently my fix was to wire an unused Rosewill fan speed controller to the 3850's fan, now when it gets to hot I manually turn it up.

Thanks, I will try 8.3 and hope that the driver will have a more graceful handling of whatever is happening with my card(though it hasn't happened in a while), rather than a BSOD, but im not holding my breath ;)


RE: Pretty odd
By killerroach on 3/26/2008 4:27:01 PM , Rating: 2
Consider yourself lucky, then... I like Vista, and even I had just about had it with the state of nVidia's drivers, especially at the beginning (I beta-tested the OS on a 6600, have had an 8800GTS more recently).


RE: Pretty odd
By Locutus465 on 3/26/2008 5:11:40 PM , Rating: 2
I can personally confirm that the early nvidia drivers were crap, but they got better. Now they function very well, at least for every PC game I've tried.


RE: Pretty odd
By darkpaw on 3/26/2008 6:55:52 PM , Rating: 3
They've fixed, most of the issues, but not all.

Early nvidia drivers blue screened constantly. It is the only thing I've seen BSoD Vista. The current drivers still have some issues like Sins of a Solar Empire. Lots of UI lock ups and an occasional hard lock.


RE: Pretty odd
By Locutus465 on 3/27/2008 9:58:01 AM , Rating: 2
Wow, well fortunetly I have yet to see a single Vista blue screen. The main issues I had was with games running, all of mine run now. The only PC games I play these days are

Oblivion
Quake 4
Doom 3
F.E.A.R
Half life 2 + episode 1
Some Crysis demo, but slow on my system

Everything else is Wii-60
Holdem poker
Mahjong Titans


RE: Pretty odd
By MonkeyPaw on 3/26/08, Rating: 0
RE: Pretty odd
By MonkeyPaw on 3/26/2008 8:20:28 PM , Rating: 1
This is strange, I just posted the above comment seconds ago and it's already rated at "1." Is something broken?


RE: Pretty odd
By Etsp on 3/27/2008 12:17:52 PM , Rating: 2
Nothing is broken, you simply replied to a comment that was rated at -1. The default rating on replies to these types of comments are 1. I am assuming this is to prevent flame wars, thought it's not entirely effective >.>


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