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The current two reactor facility in South Texas may be expanding soon.  (Source: NRG)

A peek inside one of the facility's current reactors. Note the fuel rods which ring the tank.  (Source: NRG)
Interest in clean alternative energy has revived interest in nuclear power

New Jersey-based NRG Energy filed to build two new reactors at its (currently) two-reactor nuclear power plant near Houston.  The two new reactors would more than double the plant's capacity by 2015.

The plants are not your father's reactors either -- they are cutting-edge advanced boiling-water reactors, which have been successfully operated in Japan for some time.  This new breed of critical fission reactors promise safer, cleaner and more efficient power production over traditional plant designs.

The Advanced Boiling Water Reactor (ABWR) is a Generation III nuclear reactor, developed by General Energy.  Internal water circulation is drastically improved over older models, increasing safety and efficiency.  Rods were previously hydraulically extended, but in the ABWR they are raised and lowered by electric fine motion motors, to allow for more precise control.  Moreover, the system is automated and only needs operator control once every three days.  Japan currently has four of these reactors operational, with six more coming soon.

NRG President and Chief Executive Officer, David Crane hailed the move as an alternative energy landmark.  "Advanced nuclear technology is the only currently viable large-scale alternative to traditional coal-fueled generation to produce none of the traditional air emissions," said Crane.

The plant has received backing from the U.S. Congress and has also received $500 million in risk insurance from the U.S. Department of Energy.

The application may mark the rebirth of the U.S. nuclear industry.  As many as 29 new reactors are in the works to possibly be added to the current U.S. fleet of 104, according to Bill Borchardt, director of the Nuclear Regulatory Commission's (NRC) office of new reactors.

"It is going to be significantly different than it was in the 1970s," said Borchardt.

The application is the first filed for a completely new design in more than 30 years.  It is not the first "new" reactor though, as an inactive reactor at Browns Ferry in northern Alabama was restarted in May after 22 years of inactivity due to poor maintenance.

The rebirth of the nuclear industry has certainly fueled its critics as well.  They point to the Three Mile Incident of 1979, the U.S.'s worst nuclear accident and Chernobyl in 1986.

Critic Tyson Slocum, director of Public Citizen's energy program, an anti-nuclear watch-dog group had this to say about the state of nuclear power, "The flaws of nuclear power—excessive cost, security threats and long-lived radioactive waste—have not been solved.  More nuclear reactors will only exacerbate these problems."

Many people, though, in the energy industry see building nuclear reactors as key to overcoming carbon fuel reliance and possibly impacting climate change.

"If we're not serious about building more nuclear energy [power plants] around the world, then we are not serious about addressing climate change," stated James Rogers, chief executive of North Carolina based–Duke Energy reasoned in an address to the U.N. Climate Summit.

If the reactor is approved, which seems likely, it will provide over 2,700 Mega-Watts of new power capacity.

Safety issues are certainly a concern, but many improvements in both design and structural stability have helped to turn the tide in favor of nuclear energy.  In July a 6.8 magnitude earthquake struck one of the Japan's ABWR plants, as reported by blogger Michael Asher at DailyTech.  The natural disaster caused limited damage, and released almost no nuclear materials, despite the severity of the quake.  Many other structures in the area received far more significant damage.

The move is likely to reopen the nuclear debate, but as the carbon resource supply enters its twilight hours, there will be increased interest in alternative energy, including nuclear power.  The future of nuclear power, which seemed nearly dead in the U.S., is suddenly looking a whole lot brighter.



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Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 10:52:28 AM , Rating: 5
Great article Jason. I'm going to respond to Public Citizen's comment, though:
quote:
The flaws of nuclear power—excessive cost, security threats and long-lived radioactive waste—have not been solved...
Nuclear power is by far the cheapest form of power generation. In 2006, it averaged 1.66 cents/Kw-hr, including plant amortization and waste disposal costs, cheaper than coal, and a tiny fraction of the 20-45 cents/Kw-hr that solar and coal typically run.

As for "long-lived" waste, most industrial wastes are dangerous forever. Nuclear waste is unique in that it decays. The disposal problem was solved long ago. Remove any Pu, drop it for six months in a holding pond to get rid of the truly dangerous radionuclides, then bury it in the desert.

Glassifying and dropping it in the ocean would be even simpler. There's countless millions of tons of uranium, thorium, and radium already dissolved in ocea wasters...a few more won't even register on the scale. As long as you don't drop it in shallow waters, ocean disposal would be the safest and cheapest solution of all.




RE: Best news of the year
By SavagePotato on 9/27/2007 11:06:04 AM , Rating: 5
Even mentioning the idea of dropping it in the ocean would have the critics on meltdown mode.

Just about nothing is going to get nuclear critics out of irrational paralyzing fear mode.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 11:21:42 AM , Rating: 3
Very true. I mention it only to highlight how irrational the debate has become.


RE: Best news of the year
By ajfink on 9/27/2007 11:30:01 AM , Rating: 4
I fully support dropping glassed nuclear waste in some of the immensely deep and other humanly unusable sea trenches around the globe. It's true, people have been trained to fear all things nuclear, but it's all about proper control, planning and not being irrational about the whole subject.

I blame Hollywood, hippies and Chernobyl.


RE: Best news of the year
By acer905 on 9/27/2007 12:01:13 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
I blame Hollywood, hippies and Chernobyl


And thats why we don't use Soviet reactors!


RE: Best news of the year
By The Sword 88 on 9/27/2007 12:31:49 PM , Rating: 4
Or Soviet technicians who caused most of the problems.

I also blame the Sierra Club and Jane Fonda. especially Jane Fonda.


RE: Best news of the year
By TomZ on 9/27/2007 12:34:57 PM , Rating: 5
...and don't forget Greepeace! They hate nuclear energy with a passion.

(I just can't get past the irony of that, sorry.)


RE: Best news of the year
By hrah20 on 9/27/07, Rating: -1
RE: Best news of the year
By jskirwin on 9/27/2007 3:07:49 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
yeah right, that's what they said on chernobyl.


Unless by "they" you mean Pravda and/or Stalin, I'd agree with you. However "they" didn't care too much about plant safety - or public opinion for that matter.


RE: Best news of the year
By LogicallyGenius on 9/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: Best news of the year
By TomZ on 9/28/2007 10:11:25 AM , Rating: 2
Got proof for your idiotic assertion?


RE: Best news of the year
By LogicallyGenius on 9/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: Best news of the year
By LogicallyGenius on 9/30/07, Rating: -1
RE: Best news of the year
By LogicallyGenius on 10/1/07, Rating: -1
RE: Best news of the year
By giantpandaman2 on 9/27/2007 3:09:02 PM , Rating: 3
I don't hate nuclear. I just have problems with toxic waste and protection of nuclear facilities. Anyone who thinks we've solved either one has to go do some research. To "protect" nuclear facilities security companies actually got foreknowledge of when "secretive" raids were going to happen by the government to test them.

As for waste...technology sounds promising, but unproven yet. I live in Washington, and the Hanford Nuclear Reservation is still a horrible mess. Leaky barrels, leaky cisterns full of waste, possibly contaminating groundwater, etc. Glassing it looks promising...but I'll need to see proof before I believe it can be done en masse effectively and safely. When Hanford is cleaned up, and other toxic nuclear messes, I might have more belief in nuclear power.

As it stands, the idea of trucking around toxic waste to "store" it anywhere, whether it be Yucca mountain or some deep see trench, seems like a security nightmare.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 3:30:03 PM , Rating: 5
> "I live in Washington, and the Hanford Nuclear Reservation is still a horrible mess."

And yet no one has been harmed by this "horrible mess". Doesn't that make you suspect its been somewhat overhyped?

Meanwhile, we continue to operate coal plants that result in tens of thousands of deaths per year, because we're afraid of a vanishingly small risk from nuclear power. Does that seem wise to you?

> "the idea of trucking around toxic waste to "store" it anywhere...seems like a security nightmare"

We truck non-nuclear toxic waste around the country all the time...some of it much more dangerous than nuclear waste,

Is it impossible to conceive of terrorists succesfully stealing nuclear waste for use in a "dirty bomb"? Anything is possible in theory. But such a bomb would be primarily a PR tactic, useful due to the inherent fear most people have for anything nuclear-related. If you simply wanted to kill a large number of people, you'd have far more luck with a different route.


RE: Best news of the year
By Verran on 9/27/2007 4:03:55 PM , Rating: 3
I'm a VERY big fan of nuclear power possibilities, so I ask this out of curiosity, and not to be critical, but...

What is the risk of a 9/11 style attack on a nuclear power site? Assuming you're a terrorist and you target a nuclear plant, how much damage could you do? If you crashed a plane into a nuclear reactor, what kind of devastation would we be talking about? That would be my biggest concern, and I honestly don't know the answer.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 4:18:01 PM , Rating: 4
> " If you crashed a plane into a nuclear reactor, what kind of devastation would we be talking about? "

A reactor contains a concrete containment dome several feet thick, covered with steel...a structure far stronger than a freestanding skyscraper.

In the 1980s, Sandia National Labs conducted a test by slamming a Phantom Jet moving nearly 500mph into a simulated containment structure. The jet only penetrated a few inches into the 10-foot thick block.

Admittedly a Phantom is not the largest of jets. But calculations show a typical containment structure would easily survive an impact even from a 747.

Is such a calculation foolproof? Of course nothing in life is. But even if its wrong, lets look at the results. Let's assume the structure was not only penetrated, but sustained critical damage. Let's assume the reactor cooling system was compromised to the point that a meltdown would occur (even more unlikely, but nevermind). If the government took appropriate action after the accident, the expected result would be a few dozen deaths from elevated cancer rates. And remember, that's assuming a whole host of unlikely events.

Any terrorist would have far better luck with an alternate target.


RE: Best news of the year
By rbuszka on 9/27/2007 10:41:51 PM , Rating: 2
An important factor in the collapse of the Trade Center towers was the fact that the spilled fuel created an intense fire that softened steel structural members. In the case of a concrete containment structure that is literally feet thick, there wouldn't be significant damage either from the plane or its fuel.


RE: Best news of the year
By TomZ on 9/28/2007 10:18:19 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
An important factor in the collapse of the Trade Center towers was the fact that the spilled fuel created an intense fire that softened steel structural members.

I agree with your post, but in the Trade Center, the jet fuel actually burned within the first few minutes, however, it lit all the office contents on fire. These burning contents, mostly paper, is what damaged the structure of the towers and brought them down.


RE: Best news of the year
By Christopher1 on 9/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: Best news of the year
By jkostans on 9/28/2007 9:14:14 AM , Rating: 3
If people didn't have to mine for coal for power we would actually be saving lives. (20-50 deaths per 100,000 workers every year). That's a terrible rate, and going to nuclear would reduce this number by a good amount.


RE: Best news of the year
By Rovemelt on 9/28/2007 11:49:15 AM , Rating: 2
Coal mining in China is apparently much more dangerous than in the US. Many of their mine tragedies dwarf the ones we have here in the states. It's difficult to get accurate stats from China, but here is a ChinaDaily story regarding the issue:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/english/doc/2005-04/0...


RE: Best news of the year
By mars777 on 9/27/07, Rating: -1
RE: Best news of the year
By chrispyski on 9/27/2007 5:19:44 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
And yet no one has been harmed by this "horrible mess". Doesn't that make you suspect its been somewhat overhyped?


I live downriver from Hanford in Portland, Oregon...and it is in fact quite a mess. In fact windsurfers who come to the gorge (which is a big attraction for the area) have been coming down with odd illnesses.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/20...


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 5:39:06 PM , Rating: 5
> "In fact windsurfers ... have been coming down with odd illnesses."

And 400 years ago, the same people would be burning Aunt Sally at the stake, because their cow went dry when she walked by.

Is there truly such a level of ignorance today that people will believe a nuclear facility is giving people stuffy noses hundreds of miles away?

Nuclear contamination is essentially impossible to miss. That's one of the reasons people have such a fear over it. We have the ability to detect the decay of a single atom, so even amounts millions of times below the human safety factor are easy to spot. If any radioactive material was in the river (other than what naturally exists in it, that is), it would have been detected.


RE: Best news of the year
By Christopher1 on 9/28/2007 2:27:39 AM , Rating: 2
Who says it wasn't? I'm not usually a suspicious person (actually, I am, but I keep it to myself usually) but after a government who allowed people to die from syphillis, a government who allowed soldiers to die from botulism, etc........ I'm wondering if it was found there and it was 'hushed up'.

Now, I know you are going to call me 'paranoid' for thinking that...... but I've been called paranoid many times before, in regards to Bush lying to us to get us to go into Iraq, and I've been proven right usually.


RE: Best news of the year
By giantpandaman2 on 9/27/2007 5:42:05 PM , Rating: 2
Hmm, calling $11.3 billion on cleanup that's had repeated delays, cost overruns, etc. a horrible mess is hyperbole? Ahem, yeah. What would you characterize it as? A program with a few bugs?

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/268605_hanford...

With the security incidents the nuclear powerplants control centers were what was being "penetrated." And, please, there's all sorts of explosives that can blow through tons and tons of concrete. But, why would you need that when you could just cause the reactor to go into meltdown using the control center?

There's a difference between normal toxic waste and non-nuclear toxic waste. The biggest is simple: nuclear toxic waste can spread on the wind, and remain for thousands and thousands of years. Not to mention you don't need huge of amounts of it to cause a lot of problems.

As for the "vanishingly small" risk (hyperbole anyone?) it's not that I expect every nuclear power plant to blow up. It's simply that the stakes when you're playing with nuclear are far, far higher than any other technology. A mistake here, a security attack, etc. can do a lot of damage for a very, very long time. Do I trust contractors, the government, etc. since Hanford is still a mess? No.

As for the coal/nuclear thing-people worry about jumping from the frying pan into the fire. Some people, like you, say there's no fire. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong. Inevitably, all the facts, data, and info tell me you're wrong at the moment. Simple as that. Could that change in the future? Maybe. But the proof is in the pudding, and the pudding is still a horrible mess.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 5:56:25 PM , Rating: 3
> "Hmm, calling $11.3 billion on cleanup that's had repeated delays, cost overruns, etc. a horrible mess is hyperbole?"

Don't change the subject. The issue is safety....and Hanford has not harmed anyone.

As for the price tag, blame the environmentalists, for denying us the easy and cheap solution. Pump the waste out, glassify and drop it in a desert, or dump it directly in the ocean. Problem solved.

But everytime something is attempted to be done, some group steps in with a lawsuit and protests to block it. So the waste simply sets there, with costs mounting year after year. Its going to get worse before it gets better, with a mindset like that.

In any case, comparing the Hanford nuclear weapons site to a modern nuclear reactor is off base in the first place. Hanford began operation in the 1940s, and was never constructed to address waste issues or prevent contamination of the nearby environment.


RE: Best news of the year
By giantpandaman2 on 9/27/2007 7:14:26 PM , Rating: 1
Change the subject? We're talking about nuclear power right? The cost of cleaning up its mess isn't part of it? The fact there's millions of gallons of toxic waste that are slowly leaking has nothing to do with safety nor the viability of nuclear power? Come on now, come up with an actual argument.

Blame environmentalists for the Hanford mess? Wow, if that's not a cop out I don't know what is. As for it being old, etc. etc. Well, the toxic waste is still the same as the toxic waste from any other nuclear reactor...and it has to be cleaned up in the same way. Something that still hasn't been done. And did you read the linked article? Glassification of toxic waste still isn't doing so well as of its publication in August 2006 in Savannah.

Yeah, that pudding and your arguments are still a mess.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 7:36:52 PM , Rating: 2
> "Change the subject? We're talking about nuclear power right?"

Hanford has nothing to do with nuclear power. You do realize this, don't you? It's a massive (and ancient) weapons facility, not a commercial power reactor.

In any case, the previous poster brought up Hanford in the context of safety. I was merely pointing out that the cleanup effort there, while expensive, has not generated any public safety issues.

And yes, environmentalists are responsible for the price tag at Hanford. The waste there doesn't even need to be glassified. It could simply be pumped out, put it barrels, and dumped into a deep portion of the ocean. Total cost, under % of the $11B spent so far...and the end result would be just as safe.


RE: Best news of the year
By whickywhickyjim on 9/27/2007 6:33:29 PM , Rating: 3
quote:
As it stands, the idea of trucking around toxic waste to "store" it anywhere, whether it be Yucca mountain or some deep see trench, seems like a security nightmare.


what do think happens to all of the nuclear medical waste that comes from hospitals? Does it magiaclly disappear though the work of little gnomes?
This already happens daily.


RE: Best news of the year
By Hoser McMoose on 9/27/2007 2:09:43 PM , Rating: 5
Interesting point of note. A massive UN study found that over the course of 100 years from the date of the Chernobyl reactor accident it has or will cause 4,000 deaths. This is a tragedy, but certainly not even on the same order of magnitude as the worst accidents in power generation history.

Now even counting those 4,000 deaths, along with maybe another 1,000 deaths due to all aspects of nuclear power (mostly deaths by uranium miners as well as some in the construction of the reactor buildings) that's a total of 5,000 deaths due to nuclear power for about 50,000 TWh worth of electricity produced (worldwide since 1950), or 0.1 deaths/TWh. For comparison there have been about 30 deaths due to wind power (mostly maintenance crews) for about 150 TWh worth of wind electricity produced, or 0.2 deaths/TWh.

Long story short: nuclear power is roughly twice as safe as wind power.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 2:14:58 PM , Rating: 4
> "Long story short: nuclear power is roughly twice as safe as wind power. "

Excellent points Hoser. I'd like to add that most of the deaths from Chernobyl were due primarily to the Soviet Government refusing to notify and evacuate local citizens. There were still people fishing in Chernobyl's containment pond three days after the accident itself occurred. Had the government done nothing more than distribute iodine pills, the number of deaths would have been far smaller.

And of course, the discussion about Chernobyl is doubly moot, when one realizes we have reactor designs on the books that *cannot* explode, no matter what degree of human error one supposes.


RE: Best news of the year
By Bioniccrackmonk on 9/27/2007 2:48:59 PM , Rating: 2
What impact would iodine pills have in the event of nuclear contamination? Interested in learning this, never hear dof that before.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 3:35:46 PM , Rating: 4
All the civilian deaths from Chernobyl came from thyroid cancer. While overall radiation doses were very low, the thyroid gland concentrates the radioactive iodine released by the accident, resulting in cancer developing there. A simple, cheap potassium iodine pill prevents this.


RE: Best news of the year
By Hoser McMoose on 9/28/2007 4:14:50 PM , Rating: 2
As a bit of a side note they have seen some increased rates of leukaemia in the worst-affected population around the Chernobyl accident. It's tough to directly point to any particular case and say "this was caused by the accident", however the difference is enough to cause a certain number of estimated deaths from it. The UN study mentioned above estimated most of their 4000 deaths would be due to leukaemia.


RE: Best news of the year
By bespoke on 9/27/2007 2:37:09 PM , Rating: 2
Also, coal can contain radioactive elements, so all the coal burning we do to generate electricity releases far more radioactive elements than any nuclear accident ever has.


RE: Best news of the year
By mars777 on 9/27/2007 11:39:21 PM , Rating: 2
All you said is true, but 300 rads can be absorbed by a human body in one year. Not 1 hour. So basically low radiation isnt deadly or causes severe ilnesses. But a nuclear accident does.

All the burnt coal didnt harm us because of radiation but more likely because of impure air and the like.


RE: Best news of the year
By cyclosarin on 9/28/2007 12:55:36 AM , Rating: 2
300 cGy would make someone sick, it wouldn't kill them though unless there was some other reason that compounds the radiation poisoning.


RE: Best news of the year
By cochy on 9/27/2007 4:58:22 PM , Rating: 2
Yup. And using distance traveled world wide one finds that elevator travel is by far the safest mode of transport available. Bet you didn't expect that one! =)


RE: Best news of the year
By clemedia on 9/27/2007 10:19:35 PM , Rating: 2
Escalators USED to have them beat out..........until people started wearing crocs anyways. ;P


RE: Best news of the year
By Upstone on 9/28/2007 7:37:50 AM , Rating: 2
hilarious.


RE: Best news of the year
By Strunf on 9/27/2007 2:00:08 PM , Rating: 2
pfft blame the two nukes over Japan... if people fear the nuclear it's cause of those two had they never been sent people wouldn't even know nuclear energy could cause soo much destruction... heck Chernobyl is more like the proof that Nuclear power plants don't blow up and are relatively harmless.


By Master Kenobi (blog) on 9/27/2007 2:44:04 PM , Rating: 4
The irony is that Japan embraces nuclear power while we do not and they were the ones that saw first hand the results of a nuclear explosion.


RE: Best news of the year
By ninjaquick on 9/27/2007 4:28:47 PM , Rating: 3
yeah.... what people seem to not understand is that there is WAY too little Uranium-235 in the reactor to even cause a poof. It is simply impossible for a nuclear reactor to turn into a mushroom cloud. Chernobyl exploded cause of the tremendous pressure that built up inside of of its reactor, not because of a massive nuclear chain reaction.


RE: Best news of the year
By SavagePotato on 9/28/2007 8:09:07 PM , Rating: 3
Well it is only a matter of time before godzilla stomps his scaly ass out of one of those trenches and wreaks unholy destruction on the mainland, thats a given.

But at least if we dump it in the pacific chances are he will hit hollywood first so it's not all bad. Theres a good chance him and oh I don't know, Anne Coulter might get together and start a family.

All in all I would have to say im for it then cause that would be awesome.


RE: Best news of the year
By Upstone on 9/27/2007 3:17:56 PM , Rating: 2
Agree. It seems most people against nuclear power simply don't know anything about it.

maybe gorvernments should fund some proper education on it to stop (most) of the general public believing hollywood and taking things like the simpsons litterally.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 3:37:23 PM , Rating: 2
If the government required people to carry around a geiger counter for a few days, to see just how much radiation they're exposed to on a daily basis, most people would quickly drop their irrational fears.


RE: Best news of the year
By Christopher1 on 9/28/2007 2:23:56 AM , Rating: 1
It's not really a 'paralyzing fear' mode that is unreasonable. Personally, I would be okay with nuclear power.... but ONLY if we found a way to reuse the nuclear materials, moving them from reactor to reactor, until they were totally used up so that there wasn't hardly anything left to dispose of.

I am frightened of a nuclear meltdown, rightfully I might add, because at least if a coal plant blows up, there isn't any radioactive fallout. Solar and wind? Not ever going to have one of those blow up unless someone plants explosives at them, and even at a coal plant it's exceptionally rare.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/28/2007 11:26:23 AM , Rating: 3
> "I would be okay with nuclear power.... but ONLY if we found a way to reuse the nuclear materials, moving them from reactor to reactor, until they were totally used up "

We "found that way" decades ago. It's called a breeder reactor. Combined with fuel reprocessing, it allows full burning of all long-lived radionuclides. The only nuclear waste are the so-called "dirty daughters", which primarily decay in about 6 months. And if those worry you, we can even burn them too, using a Rubbiatron-type reactor.

> "Solar and wind? Not ever going to have one of those blow up "

Actually, the Solar One plant caught fire and exploded in 1986, due to the superheated mineral oil it used as a heat concentrator. There have been a few other similar cases with solar plants. PV cells don't explode...but any concentrating or enery-storing solar facility is prone to such accidents.


RE: Best news of the year
By jmn2519 on 9/27/2007 11:11:56 AM , Rating: 4
Masher,

Does your KW/Hr cost include the red tape certifications, approvals and stuff like that? Also, does that figure include shut down and clean up costs? Assuming at some point in the future (50, 100 years) that plant will be closed and some form of clean up/remediation will need to be performed.

I'm a little familiar with the rocky flats debacle in colorado after growing up in the area. I know millions were spent cleaning up that mess though it may not apply to this situation. Rocky flats was producing weapons grade material and hopefully the containment processes have improved.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 11:20:56 AM , Rating: 5
quote:
Does your KW/Hr cost include the red tape certifications, approvals and stuff like that?
No, and those can in some circumstances be a huge share of the costs.

In fact, that's a favored tactic of anti-nuclear activists. Wait till a reactor is nearing completion, then hit it with a few lawsuits to idle construction while the billion-dollar construction loan racks up interest. After a few years, the costs become outrageous, and they can then say "nuclear power isn't cost-effective".


RE: Best news of the year
By Christopher1 on 9/28/07, Rating: -1
RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/28/2007 9:11:47 AM , Rating: 3
> "Name one instance where that happened? I can't think of one, and I don't think you can either."

Are you kidding? Delays due to environmental groups are the rule, not the exception. How about the Byron Nuclear Plant, delayed nearly 4 years because of a lawsuit? How about the Seabrook plant, where over 2,000 violent demonstrators took over the site in 1976, forcing the state governor to halt construction. How about the Vermont Yankee site, which had to take its battle all the way to the Supreme Court?

Even today, due to activism from the group Nuclear Free Vermont, the state government has recently voted to deny the reactor permission to operate past 2012. As the plant operator had to operate for at least another 20 years, what do you think that does to costs?

The reason you "can't think of any" is because no new nuclear power plant application has been approved in the past 30 years. Most of this is therefore decades old. Here's a link to one just a few months ago, though, when Greenpeace halted construction of a reactor in France:

http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/media/press-releases/...


RE: Best news of the year
By Ringold on 9/27/2007 11:21:13 AM , Rating: 3
I'll let masher respond in full but the Browns Ferry unit 1 reactor, as reported by Bloomberg, will pay for its billions in start-up costs in just 5 years if that's any indication to you.

The lions share of costs are upfront cap-ex. After that they print money. After the debt used to finance them is paid off they transmute lead to gold. This is partly because energy costs tend to be the marginal cost of extra output, extra output which usually comes from gas-fired plants -- which are much more expensive to operate. Massive profit margins therefore exist. It also helps that uranium is cheap and possibly about to get cheaper as new mines are discovered and old ones reopened.

I'll also note that the idea of a wind-fall profits tax on nuclear plants in Europe has been kicked around more than once.. indirect evidence of extremely low KW/hr costs.


RE: Best news of the year
By airsickmoth on 9/27/2007 9:01:42 PM , Rating: 5
Yeah, just look at how Rich Monty Burns got from owning a nuclear power plant. Those things do print money.


RE: Best news of the year
By SandmanWN on 9/27/2007 11:27:56 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Nuclear power is by far the cheapest form of power generation. In 2006, it averaged 1.66 cents/Kw-hr

And even that number should go down as newer plants come online. The nearby Sequoyah Nuclear Plant run by the TVA generates electricity at 1.14 cents/Kw-hr and that thing was designed in 1968 and started production in 1980.


RE: Best news of the year
By arazok on 9/27/2007 11:32:44 AM , Rating: 2
quote:
Glassifying and dropping it in the ocean would be even simpler.


Knowing nothing about this method I'm curious, if you gasified and then dumped this in the deep ocean, wouldn't the pressure crush the glass? Wouldn't it be the same as just dumping it over the bow of some ship?


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 11:35:18 AM , Rating: 2
Sea pressure only affects things containing compressible gases internally-- like human bodies and submarines with air inside. A solid chunk of metal or glass isn't going to be affected.


RE: Best news of the year
By HaZaRd2K6 on 9/27/2007 1:34:33 PM , Rating: 2
Seriously? That's pretty cool, didn't know that. I'm also curious about this "glassifying". Does it "shrink-wrap" the substance in glass or is it just encased in, say, a glass cylinder?

As for me, I've always believed nuclear energy is the way to go. It's safe, it's clean, it's cheap (upfront costs are large, but what isn't?) and it's pretty much the only source of energy that can generate huge amounts of power without spewing tons of gas into the atmosphere.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 1:43:01 PM , Rating: 3
> "Does it "shrink-wrap" the substance in glass or is it just encased in, say, a glass cylinder?"

Neither. The process (technically known as 'vitrification') converts the waste itself into a solid, glass form. The glass logs are then typically encased in steel before disposal.


RE: Best news of the year
By Oregonian2 on 9/27/2007 2:00:11 PM , Rating: 2
It's also a process that's been around 'forever'.


RE: Best news of the year
By kitchme on 9/27/2007 6:20:17 PM , Rating: 2
That sounds like what happened at Chernobyl. The fuel under heat and pressure combined with sand that was around the reactor and now it's a solid form (one of the shapes resembles elephant's foot). But, from what I read, the mass has been degrading faster than predicted. It's been awhile since I read about it though.


RE: Best news of the year
By bpurkapi on 9/27/2007 1:25:26 PM , Rating: 2
Once again we can look at Thomas Jefferson's brilliance of making the Louisiana Purchase; and subsequent acquisitions of land in the west which gave us the states of Wyoming and Nevada. If we can't dump it in the ocean there is always the whole state of Wyoming! It is the least populous state, and would most likely love the idea of making money from burying waste in its vast lands filled with nothing.


RE: Best news of the year
By Ringold on 9/27/2007 2:01:24 PM , Rating: 3
Not Nevada, though.

Harry Reid, Senator from Nevada (they should be ashamed), has made it his mission to abort the Yucca Mountain project in his state and to oppose all nuclear power. That was in one weeks edition of The Economist.

Next weeks edition included a blurb about solar-concentration style methods of solar power, indicating a cost of something like 16c KW/hr after a fantasy land period of improvement, and how Harry Reid is a big supporter of this technology -- a fully 10 times more expensive than nuclear.

I'm going OT, but another example of how the goal of the left is to destroy cheap energy.


RE: Best news of the year
By Ringold on 9/27/2007 2:06:46 PM , Rating: 2
Went back and checked, and my mistake:

Current solar concentration plants cost 17c kw/hr. Candide-style projections suggest it could, one day, drop "below" ten cents. Still likely, then, to stay around 10x more expensive.


RE: Best news of the year
By whickywhickyjim on 9/27/2007 6:44:59 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
Current solar concentration plants cost 17c kw/hr. Candide-style projections suggest it could, one day, drop "below" ten cents. Still likely, then, to stay around 10x more expensive.


The one thing no one mentions about solar is that producing efficient solar panels is highly toxic and actually very harmful to the environment. These toxic panels just end up in landfills after their short useful life has expired. The problem would become massive if we covered most of the US in panels in order to generate like 1/2 or 1/3 of the amount of energy we now get from coal,gas and nuclear.


RE: Best news of the year
By Rovemelt on 9/28/2007 12:00:05 PM , Rating: 2
Solar panel technology is improving. Here is an article regarding how new processes will bring panels down to $1-$2/watt in the coming years:

http://www.industryweek.com/ReadArticle.aspx?Artic...

quote:
The process is a low waste process with less than 2% of the materials used in production needing to be recycled. It also makes better use of raw materials since the process converts solar energy into electricity more efficiently. Cadmium telluride solar panels require 100 times less semiconductor material than high-cost crystalline silicon panels.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/28/2007 12:11:41 PM , Rating: 2
> "Here is an article regarding how new processes will bring panels down to $1-$2/watt"

$2/watt is $2000/kW. Multiply that solar's availability factor (~40% for a site like Phoenix, under 20% for a site like Seattle), and you get an average of about $6500/kW, excluding installation, inverter costs, and maintenance.

While that's far better than current panels, its still much worse than coal, gas, or nuclear. Plus, I'm sure I don't have to tell you that cadmium and tellurium are both rare metals, and cadmium is both highly toxic and carcinogenic. Large scale production of cadmium telluride panels is going to lead to large costs increases for both, and major environmental problems.


RE: Best news of the year
By Clienthes on 9/28/2007 3:13:51 PM , Rating: 2
That is only true if you are looking at the cost of solar as a primary energy source on a large scale. On a strictly domestic scale, a $2/watt panel ($2000/kW) really produces electricity for $2/(4hr a day of good sunlight x 365 days a year x 20 years) + miniman maintinance. For residential applications with a good battery system, it has great applications. It also has a tiny foot-print in such application, as you can just tack it to your roof.

The problem with solar, the only problem, is that it doesn't scale well. The required space become prohibitive, availability is terrible and there's no way to store large scale, and other production methods are far cheaper and just as safe. Solar will only ever be supplimentle on a large scale (though possible primary to an individual or family residence).

Nuclear is the only way to produce massive amounts of cheap, safe energy.


RE: Best news of the year
By number999 on 9/27/2007 1:45:01 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
In 2006, it averaged 1.66 cents/Kw-hr, including plant amortization and waste disposal costs, cheaper than coal, and a tiny fraction of the 20-45 cents/Kw-hr that solar and coal typically run
This is not true. It does not include plant amortization and not cleanup costs. Looking deeper into the article and subject gives a clearer picture of the costs. According to the website below (which got the same info from the NEI, the same as your original article), the cost does not amortize the original capital costs. Coal runs extremly close to the production cost of nuclear as seen in the graph from the NEI. Also the low end of the total cost for solar in more in line with 16 cents/kWh. Lastly, the 1.66 cents is the cost of production which is the cost for the fuel, operations and maintenance only for the time period. In solar, labour is minimal, maintenance low and the fuel is free. The cost of production for solar therefore is probably much lower than nuclear. If you are going to compare costs, compare the same types of costs.

The waste of a LWR is about 0.9% U235 and 0.6% fissile PU. You can even lower this amount by using a PHWR like a CANDU. Using the DUPIC process, the fuel is mechanically processed into new fuel rods and directly used. What comes out is <0.2% U235 and <0.3% PU. You can get an extra 25% more power with little or no increase in the amount of radioactive waste and fewer proliferation concerns (since reprocessing doesn't change radioactive content) and since there is LWR waste all around the US it would be an intelligent use for that waste.

Articles:
Original costs article
http://www.nei.org/newsandevents/recordlowcosts/
Cost of nuclear power
http://www.uic.com.au/nip08.htm
DUPIC fuel cycle
http://www.nuclearfaq.ca/brat_fuel.htm


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 2:03:56 PM , Rating: 4
> "The cost of production for solar therefore is probably much lower than nuclear"

I can't let this stand, sorry. Solar costs aren't even in the same ballpark. According to the site below (which is a pro-solar advocate, and thus included to be highly optimistic), solar costs are 27.45 c/kWh for ideal sunny climates, and 60.4 c/kWh for cloudy climates. This is just amortized plant costs across system lifetime, and doesn't include maintenance or eventual plant disposal.

The costs are far, far higher than even the worst-case projections for nuclear or coal, and explains why utilities are not building large scale solar plants, despite the PR benefits they'd gain by doing so.

Furthermore, this doesn't factor in solar's primary weakness. Without a quantum leap in energy storage technology, solar power will never be feasible for anything but filling in a small amount of peak power production during daylight hours. When its dark or cloudy, solar doesn't work...and there's no practical way to store large amounts of electricity for use.

http://www.solarbuzz.com/SolarIndices.htm


RE: Best news of the year
By Hoser McMoose on 9/27/2007 2:20:01 PM , Rating: 5
quote:
> "The cost of production for solar therefore is probably much lower than nuclear"

I can't let this stand, sorry. Solar costs aren't even in the same ballpark.

Not to speak for the original poster or anything, but I think what he's getting at is that the 1.66 cent/kWh cost ONLY includes fuel costs and operating and maintenance costs. If you compare ONLY these costs than solar is quite "cheap". The fuel costs of solar are, quite obviously, 0. The maintenance and operation costs do exist, but they might well total out to less than 1.66 cent/kWh. Certainly stationary photovoltaics have very low maintenance costs, though they might not be the most cost-effective solution when full system costs are accounted for.

If nothing else though this example just goes to show that the 1.66 cent/kWh number posted by the Nuclear Energy Institute was fairly pointless when comparing the TRUE cost of different forms of power generation.


RE: Best news of the year
By number999 on 9/27/2007 3:10:28 PM , Rating: 1
Thanks, yes that is the point I was trying to make. Giving a rose coloured figure like that doesn't make sense. You are comparing two totally different prices.


RE: Best news of the year
By number999 on 9/27/2007 2:57:59 PM , Rating: 2
According to a Canadian gov't study for Ontario, it was given as 16 cents /kWh for the cells. Inverter and other equipement increased the costs.

DOE report describing the plans for solar power 2007-2011. For a 10MW plant in Phoenix, AZ, the LCOE is estimated at $0.15 to 0.22/kWh
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaics
Just because you pick a single site for the costs doesn't mean they hold up in the broad sense especially for a retail site. Nor does it take into account the actual cost of non-solar energy to the stakeholder during the peak hours.

The costs have decreased significantly in the last few years and considering the time it takes to create any mega project and get through the inertia of all the old style thinkers, it will take even longer. Sun Edison is working with companies to put solar installations on their roofs where they buy the electricity at set rates for long terms. Such entities pay only a fixed, often below-market, rate for the electricity generated from the solar system for a 10 to 20 year term. And yes they make a profit.
http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=900...

Nuclear plants work best in huge chunks of base power where the operational capacity is maximized. Peak power is way more problematic and it is doubtful that nuclear will ever have a role in this much more lucrative area given it's huge captial costs. Solar output matches peak demands better and is scalable. Solar power already has grid parity in Hawaii and Sicily. As production goes up, cost will decrease even further.


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 3:49:15 PM , Rating: 2
> "For a 10MW plant in Phoenix, AZ, the LCOE is estimated at $0.15 to 0.22/kWh"

That Wikipedia entry isn't sourced and is tagged an unverified claim. But even so, lets assume its true. Phoenix is as close to an ideal site as you'll find in the US. And solar is still several times as expensive as nuclear power.

Anywhere else but Phoenix, costs are going to be higher. A cloudy site in a higher latitude is going to be roughly 2.5X higher.

What about generating the power in Phoenix and transporting it across the nation? Sorry won't work. A $100B upgrade to our power grid would make it possible...but it still would't make it feasible. Power line losses would be much too high. Even today, when most power is generated within 200 miles of where its consumed, line losses eat up 7-9% of all power generated. Transporting electricity across the entire nation would be about a 50% loss, meaning the costs double yet again.

> "And yes they make a profit."

Err, your link doesn't say any profit was made. It says a $60M donation was made, which enabled 3 plants powering a grand total of 135 homes. Not very impressive. If you subsidize anything heavily enough, it'll get done.


RE: Best news of the year
By number999 on 9/27/07, Rating: -1
RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 6:50:39 PM , Rating: 3
> "It is tagged and sourced....from the DOE-EERE."

Did you even read that link? The estimate is just a projection for a hypothetical site. No one has actually built one that operates so cheap.

The figures also don't include inverter costs, or maintenance/operating expenses. And, of course, it assumes Phoenix, an idealized location. From your own link, it says energy costs for a location such as NY would be 50% higher. For a cloudy area like Seattle -- higher still.

But still, lets use your own figures. From your link, the costs for dispatchable power (the most expensive sort) is around 6 c/kWh. This power is now typically generated by gas turbine. The non-dispatchable average (taken from a mix of coal/nuclear/hydro) is around 4 c/kWh.

Dispatchable (peak) power is just the tip of the iceberg...and even here, in an ideal location, solar can't compete. For the bulk of our power generation needs, solar isn't even in the running.

> "Peak demand can drive these prices up to 10 times that amount "

True. But that's only because demand is outstripping supply, and it doesn't in any way reflect the underlying costs.

If you're going to build additional capacity to prevent that from happening, its cheaper to do so via conventional means, rather than bringing solar into the mix.


RE: Best news of the year
By number999 on 9/27/2007 9:07:31 PM , Rating: 2
quote:
just a projection for a hypothetical site
What, they don't project costs for unbuilt nuclear plants to use when basing decisions? So is all the math just BS, or just the math that disagrees with your beliefs? Westinghouse's claims (price,reliability,cost of electricity,time to build,etc) for the AP600 and AP1000 are BS? There isn't an AP generation plant in existance. The math about safety probability bogus? You can't have it both ways. The math used to figure out costs from 4-5 billion dollar nuclear power plants is the same used by the DOE to figure out the costs here. You just don't like what it implies. The cost is 15-22 c/kWhr based on today's tech for an industrial production plant. Not future goals. Not what is scientifically feasible in the future. Today. Now.

Figures do include inverter costs and operating costs (pg 45), you just looked for stuff that applied only to your arguement. It's the unreferenced Canada/Ontario document I read that stated the exclusion of the inverter to the price of 16c/kWhr, which I did state already. The DOE document put solar trough systems in the 12-14 c/kWhr range(pg 3).

The DOE document does not talk about Seattle or New York, nor does the business week article. So where do you get the the right to talk to me about what I have referenced and spewing out figures that I have no idea where they came from.

quote:
...doesn't in any way reflect the underlying costs
No. It reflects on feasability, which you seem to want to make solar not feasible in any circumstance. Users have to pay the peak power price. Sun Edison will sell it to them from solar sources for a set price, long term, at that price or cheaper then the regular peak price. (sarcasm)That's really wrong of them. It's not feasable at all.(/sarcasm) The only way to lose is if the price of energy goes down. That's sure to happen any day now. What's the price of a barrel of oil?

It may be cheaper to produce from conventional sources(without carbon costs added) but it is not as desirable. Increased use of solar will drive solar prices down. Increased use of conventional power will just increase prices of fossil fuels as well as CO2 output. If you don't care about CO2, why even bother with nuclear at all. According to UIC article jan 2007, coal power is projected to be cheaper in the US by 2010 by about 0.3-1 cent/kWhr depending on the discount rate. And this is a pro nuclear industry site.
http://www.uic.com.au/nip08.htm

I never have said that the bulk of our power needs could be addressed using today's solar technology. Show me where I have said it. You're just assuming that since I support the tech, my head is up in the sky and I'm dreaming. I'm not. I don't support your proposition that it is a technological dead end, especially with wrong data being presented as a reason.

You still go around the point that you totally misrepresented the cost of solar energy by a fairly large margin. You even said in an " ideal situation " the cost was 27.45 c/kWhr. Well, if Pheonix does represent an ideal situation, then you were off by wide margin since the DOE puts that ideal situation at 15 c/kWhr and not your stated amount. Do you actually think people are more inclined to believe that your Solarbuzz site is more knowledgeable than the DOE?


RE: Best news of the year
By masher2 (blog) on 9/27/2007 10:30:42 PM , Rating: 2
> "What, they don't project costs for unbuilt nuclear plants to use when basing decisions? "

They do. But surely you realize that a projection is not as accurate as real-world figures from plants actually in operation.

> "Figures do include inverter costs and operating costs (pg 45)"

No. The initial inverter is included. Inverter replacement is specifically excluded, and maintenance/operating costs are nowhere on that chart.

> "The DOE document does not talk about Seattle or New York"

Yes it does. Right there on Page 1. Phoenix gets around 2300 kWh/m^2. The national average is 25% lower, at 1800 kWh/m^2. By the map, Seattle is just over 1000 kWh/m^2. That makes generated costs over twice as expensive.

> "Users have to pay the peak power price."

You're still missing the point. In a shortage condition, electric costs will rise sharply. That's a given. Even if they rise enough to make solar profitable, it still means all other sources are MORE profitable. Much more, in fact.

> "You still go around the point that you totally misrepresente